Fate/Zero

[Kraco]

Add that with the fact that the Magi Association is in London and how all of Tohsaka, Einzbern and Matou having Western estates in Fuyuki city, I assume that the magical culture of this world is of western origin. (To boot, Rin's chants and the scroll Kiritsugu presented weren't remotely Asian, plus the regulatory body in this land of Shinto and Buddhism (ie Japan) is the Church, strangely enough)

Wasn't Fuyuki the location only because it was far from the Church's witch hunt and the local mages didn't object to it being used? The Grail War itself obviously has its roots in Western magic, so the majority of mages participating being users of Western magic is hardly a surprise, the chosen heroic spirits included. But yeah, it does seem like Type-Moon is presenting much of the magic in their universe quite Western.

[Buffalobiian]

Wasn't Fuyuki the location only because it was far from the Church's witch hunt and the local mages didn't object to it being used?

I vaguely remember that being the case.. as well as Fuyuki being a good place because of the leylines in the earth. Those two points aren't mutually exclusive though.

[shinta|hikari]

Haha. Did that guy even have a name? I don't think he did. But since his noble phantasm would be a confirmed hit on a person nailed to a cross and thus utterly helpless, possibly even dead already, I think I'd just quit the grail war right off the bat and leave the city in a hurry if I was the unlucky master who received such an uber lousy servant.

You mean Longinus? I don't think his noble phantasm would be weak at all. He did kill a god after all.

[Kraco]

You mean Longinus? I don't think his noble phantasm would be weak at all. He did kill a god after all.

That was the guy's name? I thought it was just the spear... I guess I'm not too familiar with these later legends. Still, it wouldn't change so much. After all, according to the only canonical Gospel that mentions the spearing at all, John, Jesus was already dead by the time this unnamed soldier speared him. But regardless of which legend you choose to believe, the man's great achievement wasn't to kill a god but to recognize the son of God, suffer, and turn into a Christian. His violent act was to hit a man already dead or barely lingering, nailed to a cross and utterly helpless. Maybe he could take lots of punishment, but he would lack offensive skills.

Like I said, I wouldn't want this guy as a servant.

[KrayZ33]

a servant owning the true holy spear? and you wouldn't want him?
its probably win by default as its said to make its wielder immortal/invincible

[Kraco]

Well, Gilgamesh has a vault full of weapons, each holier than the previous, but I still would rather go with another servant. Gil's more trouble than worth. This Longinus fellow achieved nothing but happening to be a centurion overseeing Jesus's punishment. Whatever he did later is as fictional as the 5th war's Sasaki Kojirou's fame - and just look how lucky that guy was.

The spear might be nice, I'll give in that much, but not the guy that comes along with it.

[shinta|hikari]

That spear can hit an angel all the way out in outer space. I want it.

[Buffalobiian]

That spear can hit an angel all the way out in outer space. I want it.

Then you'd better hook up with NASA to retrieve it afterwards.

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 17 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=309499)





----------------------------






wtf was with that preview?

I'm with Gil on this one. That was a rather boring finish to Tokiomi's storyline. I had hoped to see more flashy magic from him.

[Kraco]

I'm with Gil on this one. That was a rather boring finish to Tokiomi's storyline. I had hoped to see more flashy magic from him.

Indeed. It feels like we saw pretty much nothing from Tokiomi. Although that only reinforces my view of him as a man who plotted and gathered information endlessly but lacked something to act based on it. I also find it interesting how Rin is so similar to him in one way: How they trusted people so much and were thus devastatingly betrayed. Fortunately Rin didn't hesitate to act, though.

Still, after this episode Kirei's death in FSN is doubly satisfying... I don't particularly care about Tokiomi's death (aside from regretting not seeing his best battle performance), but it's just nasty Kirei will look after Rin. A small consolation is that Rin will never like him.

One-upping Kiritsugu shouldn't be easy for Kirei, despite the fact the Einzbern faction should now believe the Toosaka faction won't be targeting them right now. Kiritsugu doesn't look like a man who will believe anybody. I don't expect he would even believe Kirei is going to leave.

[Archangel]

Hahaha! Now i get it! The ending of the fate route, that dagger... holy shit the irony is delicious!

Gil and Kotomine's interactions are weird though, at one point it looked like they were 5 seconds away from a make out session.

[Buffalobiian]

Hahaha! Now i get it! The ending of the fate route, that dagger... holy shit the irony is delicious!

Yeah, that's pretty funny.




Gil and Kotomine's interactions are weird though, at one point it looked like they were 5 seconds away from a make out session.

You could look at it that way. Both of their attractions seem rather.. strong.

The weirdest thing that I don't get with Kirei is whether he's fixated more on Kiritsugu or Kariya. During the beginning of the show he was all "omg this Kiritsugu guy is so mysterious!". Then as Gil turned him over they said that Kariya was the person Kiritsugu was interested in the most because he kept monitoring him with Assassins. Now we're back to Kiritsugu fanboyism with that photo pulling him back.

[Ryllharu]

The weirdest thing that I don't get with Kirei is whether he's fixated more on Kiritsugu or Kariya.
...
Now we're back to Kiritsugu fanboyism with that photo pulling him back.
Next episode...Kirei takes a bath with a bunch of pictures of Kiritsugu floating in the tub.

[Kraco]

The man is totally empty inside, so give him a break if he's interested in people going all out to achieve something they believe in, no matter the cost. Such an outlook must be utterly alien to Kirei, so he finds it intriguing.

[Buffalobiian]

[Shin-S] Fate Zero ED2 Single - Sora wa Takaku Kaze wa Utau (FLAC) [Haruna Luna].zip (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=311083)
[Shin-S] Fate Zero ED2 Single - Sora wa Takaku Kaze wa Utau [Haruna Luna].zip (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=311082)

[shinta|hikari]

Awesome. I was waiting for this. This song makes me cry, especially because of the visuals in the ED.

[Archangel]

Episode 18:

Well... that escalated quickly.

[shinta|hikari]

Kerry...

Now we know where the twisted sense of justice Shirou had came from.

I don't understand the necessity to kill Kerry's father, unless he was sure that his father would experiment on people of his own volition. He probably was though, but that is put into doubt by his desire for vengeance because his father's irresponsibility took his love away from him.

I am so excited to see what kind of character Natalia is. She reminds me of Aozaki Touko in a number of ways, and that is always a great thing.

[Buffalobiian]

I don't understand the necessity to kill Kerry's father, unless he was sure that his father would experiment on people of his own volition. He probably was though, but that is put into doubt by his desire for vengeance because his father's irresponsibility took his love away from him.

I thought it was unnecessary as well since this incident wasn't directly the fault of Kiritsugu's father's works.

It depends on how much Kiritsugu knows about his research and how smart he is though. The logical conclusion is that each of those flowers were exposed to one batch of "test pills". His father is leaving them on the porch to test how they stand against time. The best ones (or apparently successful ones) will move on to animal trials, then eventually human trials.

If he saw all that coming, then he'd know that someday someone would have to suffer the same fate. Granted, if conducted appropriately it would only result in the odd abduction case instead of an outbreak, on a smaller scale than how 4th war Caster and his Master abduct little children. I'm not convinced he saw that far ahead though. I'm more confident that his line of thinking was "The pill was the cause, and dad created the pill. He'll continue to create more pills in his experiments. I must stop him."


Now we know where the twisted sense of justice Shirou had came from.

How so?


I am so excited to see what kind of character Natalia is.
She's cool, but I'll still need to see more (predicted) awesomeness from her before I jump on that wagon.

I was amused to see other character designs making a cameo. Shirley seems like a cheery version of Alphard, and the Mage Association guy looked just like the Kotomine Kirei counterpart in Fate/Prototype.

[shinta|hikari]

Shirou's justice over everything ideology (at least at the start of FSN) was probably influenced by Kerry. He did serve as a father figure after all, and Shirou always looked up to his teachings (although probably without understanding the truth behind them).

I am guessing Emiya granddad's attitude towards the tragedy at the village clued Kerry in on how the experiment will eventually progress.

[animus]

Fate Zero 18 720p - UTW (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=311805)

Surprised no one linked the episode.

[Buffalobiian]

Shirou's justice over everything ideology (at least at the start of FSN) was probably influenced by Kerry. He did serve as a father figure after all, and Shirou always looked up to his teachings (although probably without understanding the truth behind them).

Justice-over-everything as in "Justice at all costs"?

How does Kiritsugu affect that?


Fate Zero 18 720p - UTW

Surprised no one linked the episode.

Ah. I missed it when I saw the "18" in Ark's post...

[David75]

Kerry's reaction is more about how his father is totally cold about the fact villagers... and even more Shirley, his first love and someone he deeply cares for.
Hence his question about how he might someday experiment on his own son.
Kerry knows how cold his father really is, he knows the incident is nothing to him. His will to kill him isn't stopped by any compassion/love/father-son relationship.

It also explains why Kirei was a little upset at his father being killed by someone else, he has lost the chance to mimic Kiritsugu's experience.

[Buffalobiian]

It also explains why Kirei was a little upset at his father being killed by someone else, he has lost the chance to mimic Kiritsugu's experience.

I didn't think Kirei knew about that.

[David75]

I didn't think Kirei knew about that.

I wrote it without proof, or maybe it was in another source? But considering Kirei mimics most of Kiritsugu's achievements (anti-mage unit and all), and he had/has access to the Church's intel, it's not a far stretch to tell he probably knows about the events with been shown in that ep.

[Kraco]

Kiritsugu's childhood certainly ended soon and abruptly. I think David nailed the reason why Kerry killed his dad. He is also his father's son, so the same sort of a mage's decisiveness is within him, allowing him to do it. He's simply not interested in the Root, like so many other mages, but justice. It really explains how he can be so ruthless and no trick is too dirty for him if his first kill was his own dad.

[shinta|hikari]

@Buff - What Kraco said is what I think influenced Shirou the most. Kiritsugu believed in justice enough to kill his own father even when he did not need to do so. Shirou was also twisted in that manner, following his ideals to a fault.

[Buffalobiian]

@Buff - What Kraco said is what I think influenced Shirou the most. Kiritsugu believed in justice enough to kill his own father even when he did not need to do so. Shirou was also twisted in that manner, following his ideals to a fault.

Wasn't Shirou's idea more about helping people rather than upholding some form of justice? I thought his ideal was that he wanted to help everyone and to save everyone, and his fault was that he'd do it even when he's unappreciated and when he sacrifices personally to achieve it.

"Justice over everything" seems to mean that Shirou would enact justice (ie the side he chooses) at any cost, while in UTW Archer revealed that he broke down because he finally realised that he can't save everyone (and had to put up with a lot of shit along the way).

edit: or did you mean that Shirou and Kiritsugu were both "twisted" (as in, the magnitude and absoluteness with which they will each pursue their ideals), but applied it to different ideals?

[shinta|hikari]

I am not saying that their ideals are the same, but how they try to achieve it is the same. They don't care about the means, much like how Shirou sacrifices himself or treads all over other people's wills when he tries to enact his desire to be a "hero". It just so happens that Shirou's goal will be invalidated by him killing off people, which is probably why he does not do it. He was readily willing to kill himself all the time, which indicates how extreme his way of life was.

[Buffalobiian]

They don't care about the means, much like how Shirou sacrifices himself or treads all over other people's wills when he tries to enact his desire to be a "hero". It just so happens that Shirou's goal will be invalidated by him killing off people, which is probably why he does not do it.

Hmm... okay, I get you now.

Not sure where I stand on this though, since whether Shirou not killing anybody is part of his actual belief or if it's a coincidental inconvenience for him due to the belief he chose can make or break this whole idea.

[Kraco]

Not sure where I stand on this though, since whether Shirou not killing anybody is part of his actual belief or if it's a coincidental inconvenience for him due to the belief he chose can make or break this whole idea.

Shirou's belief is that a hero must be able to save everybody, the villain and the victims alike. Kiritsugu told him it's difficult (he sure learned it from the get-go), but that only reinforced Shirou's naive idealism. So, it's definitely not just an inconvenience for him.

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 19 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=313748)

[shinta|hikari]

Natalia!!!!

[Archangel]

So i guess we can assume this is pretty much what Archer went through? No wonder he wanted to kill his past self... Kiritsugu's ideal is fucking lunacy.

I assume the preview is referring to Kirei, we're out of true assassins right?

[Buffalobiian]

Natalia!!!!

Hah, yeah. That was pretty tense since death flags were being raised all over the place, but she seemed to get through each "death" just fine on the plane. Totally didn't expect Kiritsugu himself to pull the trigger like that.

I didn't expect her to make it to the cockpit uninfected. How do you avoid bees like that? Bee repellent?

And Kiritsugu probably didn't know about the canisters.. but it sounds like he could have gassed the whole plane when it landed to get rid of the bees, shoot the cockpit to let Natalia out, then burn the entire plane.


So i guess we can assume this is pretty much what Archer went through? No wonder he wanted to kill his past self... Kiritsugu's ideal is fucking lunacy.

How so? He doesn't expect to save every person out there, he just wants to save everybody that he can. He never answered as to whether he will follow Natalia's example of valuing his own life above all else when going about such a cause though.

Kiritsugu is utilitarian through and through - to the point where he's not even hypocritical.




A train is running down a track. The original track has 5 people, an alternative has one.

-Is it better to sacrifice one person for five? Yes - for the greater good.

-If you had the power to pull the track lever (to enable that outcome) should you perform the better outcome? Yes - for the greater good.

-If that one person was someone dear to you (or was yourself), should you do so? Yes - for the greater good, not your own good.(Xel: this was the last question from our prev. IRC convo)



The biggest pitfall I find with the utilitarian concept is hypocrisy. One can be all "for the greater good", but once they themselves have stakes in there, it's suddenly "for MY own good". It's good to see Kiritsugu being able to see it through to the end.

[animus]

The plane situations kinda silly. If the plane crash lands in the middle of the water, that's not guaranteed that a ton of people die. He could've saved Natalia and still nuked the plane in the water after it crash landed. Unless he's planning on ghouls swimming to the fucking shore.

Kiritsugu is still a shitty character, even knowing his back story.

[shinta|hikari]

Natalia would not crash land into the water. Her philosophy is to save herself first. An amateur successfully crash landing on water is very unlikely, since she was already worrying about simply landing on an airport with her skills. If she does land on the runway, her only way out would be through thoe mess of zombies anyway, and the risk of even having a single bee escape and creating a zombie pandemic is not worth a single life.

[Kraco]

Totally didn't expect Kiritsugu himself to pull the trigger like that.

I think it was pretty obvious it was going to end this way. And they both knew it, which is why I think Natalia asked Kiritsugu to keep talking to her and why they talked like that.

Episodes like this really underline the difference between Shirou and Kiritsugu. One a hopeless idealist, one a thorough utilitarian. No wonder Kiritsugu was happy that Shirou developed that way. He forsake his own happiness on the island, despite doing what he wanted to do afterwards.

[shinta|hikari]

While I understand Kiritsugu's ideology logically, I can never agree with it. I am more similar to Natalia. Save as much as you can, but always save yourself first. 'Yourself' would include people you care about, because they are part of keeping you mentally sane and balanced.

Natalia already knew about Kiritsugu's plans the moment he said that he had plans to take care of the landing. Why else would 2 assassin's be spouting stuff about family, motherly love, and retirement?

While I knew this was going to happen, I kept wishing the entire episode that it wouldn't. It really was a good episode. It took one episode to develop a side character and make people feel strongly about her, enough to question or feel disdain towards Kiritsugu's twisted ideology.

The best part of this episode was when Natalia joked about killing all evil people in the world, then immediately realizing Kiritsugu is likely to take it seriously. It really illustrated the sort of bond they have.

EDIT: Manten by Kalafina is brilliant.

[Buffalobiian]

While I knew this was going to happen, I kept wishing the entire episode that it wouldn't. It really was a good episode. It took one episode to develop a side character and make people feel strongly about her, enough to question or feel disdain towards Kiritsugu's twisted ideology.

These two episodes have been my favourite in a long time. Earlier FZ wowed me for around the first 6 episodes or so 7 episodes or so. (Pretty much after the assault on Einzbern castle and Rin's ep). The rest of FZ, while wasn't by any means bad, didn't introduce anything significantly new and was mostly predictable (in that we know about the 5th war and how the 4th war would end). These two Kiritsugu-centric eps on the other hand felt different and fresh - reminding of why I liked the earlier parts of FZ so much.


edit:

While I understand Kiritsugu's ideology logically, I can never agree with it. I am more similar to Natalia. Save as much as you can, but always save yourself first. 'Yourself' would include people you care about, because they are part of keeping you mentally sane and balanced.

I can get behind that depending on the circumstances. Say for example, letting the plane land would infect the (already closed off) airport of 500 people, and Natalia saves on average 50 people every mission by killing the bad guy. If one can reasonably expect Natalia's working-life to cover at least another 10 missions, then saving her would be the better choice in the long run.

But since she said she was going to retire after this, well.... :(



--------------------------


edit2: rewatched a little of FZ ep01, and that plane shooting was actually mentioned there!

[Splash!]

Kiritsugu probably made the right decision in this situation, but the last scene in the episode also showed that he is batshit crazy at the same time. You have to be a psycho to not have to think twice about pulling the trigger in those kind of situations. Clearly something broke in his head, after the whole Shirley incident. This is what gives rise to lack of hesitation, which Natalia considers to be a rare talent for those in her line of work.

[shinta|hikari]

I think this kill is what made him batshit crazy. His ideals were batshit crazy even before, but now he was able to prove his adherence in the most convincing and final way possible. There really is simply no going back now, not after killing your foster mother, teacher, partner, and friend.

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 20 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=315657)



--------------------------



















In the end, it's Irisviel's death that will impact on me the most. Not Maiya, Natalia or anybody else's. Watery eyes were present, and that's about as far as I expect to go as far as shedding tears for this show I reckon.

We finally got to hear her say anata once. ;_;

Kiritsugu spilling tears for Maiya (but not for Iri) gave off mixed messages. On one hand you could say that he is emotionally attached to Maiya more since he actually cried (as opposed to just hardening up with his it's-a-sacrifice-for-the-greater-good mentality that he displayed when he parted with Iri).

This reaction is a lot closer to the one he displayed when he killed Natalia.

On the other hand though, it's not so clear because you can argue that:

1) Iri wasn't actually dying right then and there, while Maiya was literally just about to leave - making the departure just that much more real
2) After Iri said her part, Kiritsugu still had Maiya left. With Maiya's injury and Iri's death certain, Kiritsugu realises that he will once again lose everybody. While Maiya's death brought tears visibly to Kiritsugu's eyes, it can be arguable how much Iri had put a crack in his heart prior to this.

[shinta|hikari]

Why did Maiya have to die...

Why do all the characters I like in this show keep dying? All that's left is for Kiritsugu to die, but we know that won't happen.

[Kraco]

Why do all the characters I like in this show keep dying? All that's left is for Kiritsugu to die, but we know that won't happen.

This is a funny story with all the best people dying and all the worst surviving (Kirei, Gil, the old Matou vampire), if you count Kiritsugu's death not that much after a part of the deal.

Kiritsugu should be full of determination after this, at the very least.

I wonder who's going to kill Tohsaka Aoi? Is it still Kirei? Or will Kariya kill her by accident?

[Buffalobiian]

I wonder who's going to kill Tohsaka Aoi? Is it still Kirei? Or will Kariya kill her by accident?

Could be either or, but both will be due to Kirei's meddling since he finds Kariya "interesting" and all that.

I'm really confused regarding Rider.. if it was him, his actions would seem rather inconsistent. It's not like Saber wouldn't have duelled him if he asked nicely.

That was nice little red herring from the last preview, with "Return of the Assassin" referring not to the servant class but to Kiritsugu himself.

[NeoCybercoin]

Poor Kiritsugu is just cursed. Keeps on losing women he loves or at least cares for.

[Archangel]

Why did Maiya have to die...

Why do all the characters I like in this show keep dying? All that's left is for Kiritsugu to die, but we know that won't happen.
Because Gen Urobuchi.


I wonder who's going to kill Tohsaka Aoi? Is it still Kirei? Or will Kariya kill her by accident?
The preview made it look like Kariya was gonna rape her or something O_o


That was nice little red herring from the last preview, with "Return of the Assassin" referring not to the servant class but to Kiritsugu himself.
Was it though? There's no way Rider was the one who killed Maya so maybe this is one last true assassin in disguise?

[Buffalobiian]

Was it though? There's no way Rider was the one who killed Maya so maybe this is one last true assassin in disguise?

Last time I checked, Assassin couldn't fly, unless Gil was letting dirty thieves on his plane (which was destroyed?).

Alternate scenario: Rider comes knocking in looking for a challenge but doesn't see Saber. Assassin performs some sort of sneak ranged attack and Maya ends up getting fatally injured. Rider can't fight encumbered at the moment so picks up Iri and takes her to safety.

I highly doubt there's an extra assassin lying around though. Kirei lost his rank as master last time due solely because he lost all his servants, as far as I know. He sought refuge at the church and his mark initially disappeared. Assassins aren't known to be able to hold out without a master unlike the Archer class, and Kirei had shown no sign that he had rejoined the war secretly prior to his teaming up with Gil.

[shinta|hikari]

That better be what happened, or I am gonna pray Saber lasers the living shit out of Iskandar.

Even if he killed Maiya by accident, he is better off dead.

[NeoCybercoin]

Well, it's kind of a surprise she wasn't offed before. I mean Shirou got killed by Lancer at the beginning of Fate/Stay Night because outsiders weren't allowed witnessing the fights between Heroic Spirits and knowledge of the Holy Grail War in general right? Maya is an outsider in that prospect isn't she?

[Buffalobiian]

No one knows about Maya except Kirei. All other masters would actually ser Kiritsugu an outsider and Iri as the Einzbern master.

[Kraco]

If it was Rider who killed her, he had every right to do so. We even saw Maya initiated the fight. Not that she'd have had any choice, or any chance, but from the point of view of a warrior, it would have been more insulting if Rider had simply ignored her and the bullets, taken Iri and flown away. Being an assassin, maybe Maya wouldn't have cared (though we will never know), but as a warrior Rider might have.

[Buffalobiian]

If it was Rider who killed her, he had every right to do so. We even saw Maya initiated the fight. Not that she'd have had any choice, or any chance, but from the point of view of a warrior, it would have been more insulting if Rider had simply ignored her and the bullets, taken Iri and flown away. Being an assassin, maybe Maya wouldn't have cared (though we will never know), but as a warrior Rider might have.

Maya's reaction was provoked by Rider, who didn't knock on the door but instead kicked it down. I'd say he had it coming.

[Kraco]

Maya's reaction was provoked by Rider, who didn't knock on the door but instead kicked it down. I'd say he had it coming.

What has that got to do with anything? It's a war and they are all enemies with each other. Knocking on the door only lets the other side get ready. Maya would still have had the option to throw away her gun and go sit in a corner. Door is nothing but a door, a piece of wood and metal.

[Buffalobiian]

What has that got to do with anything?


We even saw Maya initiated the fight.

I'm saying that it's Rider who did the initiating, not Maya. It's a sign of aggression, you'd be stupid not to read it as such, or know that it would trigger such a response.

[David75]

Rider probably killed Maya quickly because he understands what happenned with lancer's master.

He has every reason to kill an opponent who plays dirty, as soon as he gets a chance to.

[Buffalobiian]

Rider probably killed Maya quickly because he understands what happenned with lancer's master.

He has every reason to kill an opponent who plays dirty, as soon as he gets a chance to.

How would he know though? It's not like anyone told him. Kiritsugu didn't know Tokiomi was dead until he rocked up.

[David75]

How would he know though? It's not like anyone told him. Kiritsugu didn't know Tokiomi was dead until he rocked up.

Well they were able to trace Irisviel position (my guess, due to the magic circle where she lays).
They know how lancer was treated.
Rider decides to attack the enemy's base in a frontal manner, he does not really have time to spare anyone hostile based on principles... even more so if he suspects these enemies to play dirty.

[shinta|hikari]

I am not really blaming Rider for killing an enemy. I am blaming him for killing Maiya, and there is no right or wrong, or anything logical about that. It is pure bias.

[Kraco]

I'm saying that it's Rider who did the initiating, not Maya. It's a sign of aggression, you'd be stupid not to read it as such, or know that it would trigger such a response.

If someone busts your door open, you still have the option to see whether it's the police swat team (and decide not to fight back because you'd lose by default) or if it's the neighbourhood hooligan gang (you can let your shotgun do the talking because the rest will run when the first goes down). So, while strictly objectively kicking the door in is already initiating, it's not really the first thing that counts - as long as the one coming in doesn't want to kill you no matter what.

[Archangel]

It wasn't Rider...

[Buffalobiian]

@Ark: what makes you think that? And what do you mean my "it"? The killer wasn't Rider, or the dude carrying Iri wasn't Rider?

@David: how would Rider know what happenned to Lancer was my question. Servants don't automatically get updated on who dies, otherwise faking Assassin's death wouldn't have worked. Rider also retreated for the night and was't at Lancer's fight.

@Kraco: very well.

[Archangel]

Because Rider is bro tier and bros don't do that shit.

[NeoCybercoin]

Don't know bout you guys but I couldn't wait for UTW.
[Commie] Fate⁄Zero-21 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=317527)

[Archangel]

Bitch deserved to be choked.

[shinta|hikari]

The tragedy in this show is addictive.

So Rin's mother actually blamed Kariya for Sakura's fate the whole time. Talk about misplaced blame... She does deserve the end that she got, though Kariya somewhat deserves this conclusion as well.

[Archangel]

I don't think any of them truly deserve to suffer like they did.

With the exception of the characters that were already evil in FSN, the FZ characters all seem to be either standing for what they believe in or fighting to protect the ones they love.

They're all meeting gruesome endings nonetheless simply because that's the author's style and because none of these characters are allowed to remain alive for the sequel.

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 21 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=317583)

[shinta|hikari]

I must be less forgiving than you are.

Kariya is a lunatic who assumed what was best for his love, and ended up going insane and killing her.

Rin's mom was blindly in love with Rin's dad and blamed Kariya for Sakura's fate, despite Tokiomi being the real cause.

For me, this conclusion fits their actions. Motives matter little, unlike consequences.

[Buffalobiian]

Kariya is a lunatic who assumed what was best for his love, and ended up going insane and killing her.

That's debatable. As we discussed earlier, the Tohsakas probably didn't know exactly how the Matous get their power and thought giving their daughter away was essentially giving her a second life (as a mage) that she would not otherwise have had if she stayed with the Tohsakas. He knew how much suffering Aoi was suffering, but he also knew of Sakura's, which Aoi herself didn't.

Blind-rage killing was.. unfortunate, but I wouldn't excuse it, no.



Rin's mom was blindly in love with Rin's dad and blamed Kariya for Sakura's fate, despite Tokiomi being the real cause.

For her, Tokiomi's not at fault. Aoi accepts the fate of magi and their ways, even if they conflict with her personally.Tokiomi gave away their daughter for two reasons:

1) Because she had potential, but most importantly,
2) because Matous lineage ended

While Shinji had zero abilities of his own, Kariya was still at a passable level to be called a mage. Had he not walked away from the path of magic that was his destiny, Zouken would not have requested for Sakura. (at least, not until they lose this war or something anyway..) I imagine that would be Aoi's thinking, and as the wife of a mage, she's not exactly wrong.

[Kraco]

While Shinji had zero abilities of his own, Kariya was still at a passable level to be called a mage. Had he not walked away from the path of magic that was his destiny, Zouken would not have requested for Sakura. (at least, not until they lose this war or something anyway..) I imagine that would be Aoi's thinking, and as the wife of a mage, she's not exactly wrong.

Indeed. Aoi still thinks like mages do, assuming the most talented of the offspring will carry on the family's inheritance, out of pride, responsibility, and duty. In fact it was conflicted of her to blame Kariya at that point because giving Sakura to Matou assured Sakura could become a mage as well, but I think seeing her husband dead was somewhat shaking for her and made her only think as a mother - at which she failed as well by dying now and leaving Rin alone. Though even if Kariya hadn't cracked all the way through now, Kirei might have killed Aoi all the same.

Man, Kirei dying in FSN feels all the better after every episode of this show, but on the other hand Rin being left under his care feels equally all the worse.

[David75]

Street Hawk Arthur Armored Yamaha Vmax FTW!

That show is eye candy each ep. So much that you even grow tired of it, or feel unsatisfied when it's a little less superb.

The Vmax in itself is an incredible machine, I feel like they did some blasphemy with that attire.

Other than that, an ep I can forget.

[Buffalobiian]

Aoi still thinks like mages do, assuming the most talented of the offspring will carry on the family's inheritance, out of pride, responsibility, and duty. In fact it was conflicted of her to blame Kariya at that point because giving Sakura to Matou assured Sakura could become a mage as wel

I wouldn't go that far.

I'd say Aoi accepts the ways of mages, rather than thinks or takes pride in their ways. Tokiomi is the one who fully backs the "give Sakura a second life" ideology and might have even saw Zouken's request as an opportunity to save a dying lineage and let a young mage fulfil her potential. Aoi really doesn't care for that and would have rathered that Sakura live a sheltered life with the family instead, but she accepts her (and Sakura's) fate since she's the wife of a mage.

Aoi would never have seen the giving of Sakura to the Matous as a good move - for her or Sakura.

[NeoCybercoin]

Well Archie was right about Rider being bro material and doesn't go around abducting or killing people.

[Kraco]

Aoi would never have seen the giving of Sakura to the Matous as a good move - for her or Sakura.

She has hardly got enough screentime to conclusively judge one way or another. She seems like a "perfect" wife, though, always listening to her husband. But maybe you are correct, and she was simply very strong mentally, not letting it show visibly how much sending Sakura away was hurting her.

[Buffalobiian]

They had a conversation back in episode 01, around the 9:40 mark of UTW's release


"The head of the Tohsaka family decided to give our ancient allies, the Matous, what they requested. It wasn't my place to voice my opinion."
...
"It's wrong for a family bearing Mage blood to expect the happiness of a normal family."

Combined with her initial sadness, then finishing at discontent when she said that this was between Tohsaka and Matou... I'd say she's pretty pissed at him.

edit: Oh, I managed to revisit the scene where Rin vowed that she wouldn't forgive Kirei if Tokiomi got hurt because he was slacking off.

...
...
fuck you Kirei.

[shinta|hikari]

I was expecting a lot more from Kirei. I hoped that his transformation would make him into an interesting villain, but all it did was make him a lowly crook who likes to bully people. So what he found to stuff his emptiness is... sadism? Kinda boring.

[NeoCybercoin]

[Commie] Fate⁄Zero 22 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=319670)

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 22 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=319718)

[Archangel]

The Einzbern make the best sex dolls ever.

[shinta|hikari]

How the fuck did Kirei survive until the next grail war with Kiritsugu alive?

[Archangel]

FSN Kiritsugu is a broken and cursed man, i doubt he has any sort of vengeance in him after what's about to go down.

[Buffalobiian]

How the fuck did Kirei survive until the next grail war with Kiritsugu alive?

He was banking on the Grail to end all conflicts of the world to the point where he'd have to sacrifice his loved ones for it. After learning that it can only grant wishes through destruction, I gather that he decided such an ideal was impossible to achieve and stopped going it. Saving the world was pointless, trying to do so is futile.

He was tainted with the grail too, and the pain was supposed to be pretty unbearable. Kirei loves that shit though, so that's probably why he remained active a lot more.

I don't even know if Kiritsugu killing his father could be called "revenge" so to speak, or whether it was in order to prevent a similar disaster..

edit:


The Einzbern make the best sex dolls ever.

True, that. However, that scene also reiterated the point for me that screwing a broken lump of meat really doesn't cut it.

[Kraco]

Kirei surely isn't empty anymore. He's full of the same shit that's filling the grail.

It's a small miracle Kiritsugu managed to linger long enough to twist Shirou into such a hero worshipper, considering everything we have seen him go through in this show. But then again, it seems their first meeting was the turning point for Shirou already, so maybe Kiritsugu didn't need to do much afterwards.

[shinta|hikari]

Still, I will be pretty pissed if Kiritsugu just left Kirei alive for no good reason.

[NeoCybercoin]

[Commie] Fate/Zero 23 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=321684)

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 23 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=321735)

------------------------------

























Now that was an impressive Iskandar.

btw, who was it who told me Berserker wasn't Lancelot when I guessed a while back (and sent me on a wild goose chase). >_>

[Kraco]

That was quite an episode. Iskandar fell very similarly to Berserker of the Fate route. It also feels like, after episodes like this, that Gilgamesh's strength in FSN is cast into new light. Hard to say if that makes Shirou's prowess against him more or less impressive, though. After seeing Gil like this, it's pretty obvious he wasn't taking Shirou seriously at all. Narutally that's also a fatal flaw in fighting skills, making one weaker.

Kariya is dying suitably painfully. A fitting end for such a fool.

Based on the preview shit's going to hit the fan already. As this season is 12 eps long, meaning there's still an episode left after the next one, the very ending doesn't seem overly abrupt. That's good.

[David75]

That was quite an episode. Iskandar fell very similarly to Berserker of the Fate route. It also feels like, after episodes like this, that Gilgamesh's strength in FSN is cast into new light. Hard to say if that makes Shirou's prowess against him more or less impressive, though. After seeing Gil like this, it's pretty obvious he wasn't taking Shirou seriously at all. Narutally that's also a fatal flaw in fighting skills, making one weaker.

Kariya is dying suitably painfully. A fitting end for such a fool.

Based on the preview shit's going to hit the fan already. As this season is 12 eps long, meaning there's still an episode left after the next one, the very ending doesn't seem overly abrupt. That's good.


It's highly probable FSN Gil is underpowered too.

[Buffalobiian]

That was quite an episode. Iskandar fell very similarly to Berserker of the Fate route. It also feels like, after episodes like this, that Gilgamesh's strength in FSN is cast into new light. Hard to say if that makes Shirou's prowess against him more or less impressive, though. After seeing Gil like this, it's pretty obvious he wasn't taking Shirou seriously at all. Narutally that's also a fatal flaw in fighting skills, making one weaker.

Gil vs Shirou in FSN? There's no way he would have taken him seriously. Either you meant Gil vs Saber, or you meant UTW instead.

[Ryllharu]

Gilgamesh doesn't even take Saber that seriously in FSN. He sees her as a feisty cat to be tamed, not as a worthy foe. Only inside a Reality Marble could Gil use the full power of Ea, since it destroys worlds. Thus, he never unleashed its full power.

Gilgamesh's greatest weakness has always been his arrogance which leads him to underestimate his opponents.

[Xelbair]

Gil vs Shirou in FSN? There's no way he would have taken him seriously. Either you meant Gil vs Saber, or you meant UBW instead.

Gil vs Shirou in UBW - Shirou won thanks to three things:
1) he had access to excessive amount of mana(from Rin)
2) He knew how to wield those weapons properly.
3) Gil had limited mana(he had to feed on humans to gain it, grail wasn't keeping him in this world, and mana from Kotomine(if he got any) wasn't enough)
Basically Gilgamesh has grand armory of weapons, but he doesn't know how to wield them - even if Shirou's weapon got destroyed he just projected another one - and thanks to training with Saber/observing Archer he was pretty good with swords.
Plus he is arrogant as fuck - if he used Ea vs Shirou, it would be instakill.

[Archangel]

Gil vs Shirou in UBW - Shirou won thanks to three things:
1) he had access to excessive amount of mana(from Rin)
2) He knew how to wield those weapons properly.
3) Gil had limited mana(he had to feed on humans to gain it, grail wasn't keeping him in this world, and mana from Kotomine(if he got any) wasn't enough)


1) Excessive is the wrong word, he had enough to use his weapons.
2) Not properly, just better than Gilgamesh. There's a reason why he kept himself in range for close combat as well, it denied Gil of the possibility to use his power as the Archer class.
3) This is just wrong in every way, Gilgamesh had infinite mana as he was being fed directly from the grail.

Oh and 4) the chains we saw weren't usable against him in any meaningful way because they're made to hold divinities. As we saw it in the UBW route, they were just normal chains when used against Shirou.

But the bottom line is what everyone's been saying all along, he was arrogant and conceited which eventually brought his downfall. His pride would have never allowed him to go all out against a human from the get go.


Gilgamesh doesn't even take Saber that seriously in FSN. He sees her as a feisty cat to be tamed, not as a worthy foe. Only inside a Reality Marble could Gil use the full power of Ea, since it destroys worlds. Thus, he never unleashed its full power.

He's as arrogant as ever around her but he does take her seriously, otherwise he would have never have used Ea against her.

PS: You know, this is total bulshit. I could have been surprised by Berserker's identity if that ending of him standing in front of a lake in season 1 hadn't completely ruined it.

[shinta|hikari]

I wouldn't. A knight hunting for Arthur? Only 2 viable options come to mind, and only one is an actual knight.

[David75]

[Commie] Fate ⁄ Zero - 24 [0F813FE3].mkv (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=323534)

The show is nice and all, action, effects, animation, scenario and intricate ideas.

But it is somehow a little too heavy to my liking.

We knew from FSN that this war was a mess. It is, on such a large scale.


Now I understand why Archer was so bored at first. Owning all of the treasures of the world, if the grail was so great, he'd have it. Since he didn't know about it, it could only be a deception...

[shinta|hikari]

This is an absolute masterpiece.

The master battle was epic.

Kiritsugu deserves to be god.

[Archangel]

<Arkangel> God damn
<Arkangel> Fate Zero is beyond good
<Arkangel> It's a fucking masterpiece
I think we even posted it at the same time Shinta

Either you agree or disagree with his motives his commitment is without question and his ideals are unwavering. I'm in awe of this character and of how well it is written.

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 24 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=323601)

[shinta|hikari]

And the fact that he actually does love those two is what makes it amazing. If he was cold and fine about it, it wouldn't be as big a sacrifice.

Dad > Teacher > Maiya > Daughter > Lover... Amazing. (arrows, not math symbols)

Ilya was so cute in that scene. This show just has it all.

[David75]

Sure, Kiritsugu is someone special, being able to kill his inner representations of his wife and his daughter

[Buffalobiian]

Sure, Kiritsugu is someone special, being able to kill his inner representations of his wife and his daughter

You're making them sound like "illusions" David, while what they are are representations of the chances of having his wife and daughter back. He literally crushed the last one.


Since he didn't know about it, it could only be a deception...

Not necessarily. Gilgamesh admits himself that he owns more treasure than he knows. His conclusion is actually the opposite of yours: If it's a treasure that exists, then it must be mine already. He doesn't care for the grail since it's his, but he does care that other people are taking his property, so he'll defend it.

[Kraco]

Kiritsugu and Kirei's fight was certainly one of the most intensive ones in this show. Interesting Kirei survived, but at the very least Kiritsugu made sure Kirei would be without those monster command spells in the next war. That was some sort of an early service for his adopted son.

If Iri's personality really was still present within the grail, it would indicate she didn't really know Kiritsugu that well. Thus I'm more inclined to think it wasn't anymore there, and rather it was Iri's own wish that was speaking. Since she was destined to become a grail and have a short life, her own wish was likely to live longer with her loving family.

It was a good detail to make Saber so deranged and obsessed by the time she reached the grail. Being so out of her mind already Kiritsugu's "betrayal" was all the more intensive. No wonder Saber didn't remember the man too fondly when she meets Shirou in the next war. Maybe if Gil wasn't there to press the issue, Kiritsugu might have explained everything to her, like Shirou managed to do much later. I guess the next war acquitted Kiritsugu just a little bit in Saber's mind.

[Buffalobiian]

If Iri's personality really was still present within the grail, it would indicate she didn't really know Kiritsugu that well. Thus I'm more inclined to think it wasn't anymore there, and rather it was Iri's own wish that was speaking. Since she was destined to become a grail and have a short life, her own wish was likely to live longer with her loving family.

The grail had to interact with Kiritsugu through a personality. All of its intentions and messages should belong to the grail, however - and with it the knowledge that it possesses. I understood that as the grail reading Kiritsugu's wishes and telling him how it would grant them. It read Kiritsugu's wish accurately, and told him of the only way it can grant it (by performing tasks using a method that Kiritsugu can come up with, but can't execute).

If there was an intention present that didn't belong to Kiritsugu, then it's the grail's desire for Kiritsugu to utilise itself rather than destroy itself.

[Kraco]

At the moment I'm not so willing to think the grail was so fully aware that it would have indepently started to plot by offering Kiritsugu a reunion with his family. Kiritsugu knew all the time he would lose Iri, and in fact he had already accepted her demise, so there was no wish within him to use the grail to revive her. There could have been a regret but he's a cesspool of the regrets of a sinner, so what's one more? It's not like being a happy husband and a loving father would have changed his past, in fact it would have only made him a massmurderer and nothing more if he hadn't been ready to see the road till the very end.

So, I maintain my view that it was the grail using Iri's repressed wish to live longer with her family to combat Kiritsugu. Iri was fully supporting Kiritsugu's wish, but that doesn't mean she couldn't have had her own.

[Ryllharu]

Not necessarily. Gilgamesh admits himself that he owns more treasure than he knows. His conclusion is actually the opposite of yours: If it's a treasure that exists, then it must be mine already. He doesn't care for the grail since it's his, but he does care that other people are taking his property, so he'll defend it.Wasn't there a scene where Kirei had to convince Gilgamesh that the Grail was worth having? Something new finally worth adding to his collection?

It wasn't a matter of making him realize it was already his, Gilgamesh seemed to understand that the Grail was created after he could have possibly ever owned it. He is a few millennia old, while the Grail is only a few hundreds of years old. Kirei had to convince Gilgamesh that it was something he should bother himself with.

The same way Gilgamesh spends time trying to convince Saber to become his wife. He knows she didn't exist when his collection was amassed.

[Buffalobiian]

It's not like being a happy husband and a loving father would have changed his past, in fact it would have only made him a massmurderer and nothing more if he hadn't been ready to see the road till the very end.

Quite the opposite, actually.

Kirei asked Kiritsugu why he didn't obtain the grail after all the work he's put in, and Kiritsugu said that the cost outweighs the benefit. Kiritsugu saw that there's no point in walking down his road till the end anymore because the end isn't what he had hoped it would be (his miracle). Any further benefits couldn't make up for the cost he'd have to pay, so he just stopped in his tracks.

At this moment in time, Kiritsugu is just a mass murderer because he ended up killing for nothing.


Wasn't there a scene where Kirei had to convince Gilgamesh that the Grail was worth having? Something new finally worth adding to his collection?

It wasn't a matter of making him realize it was already his, Gilgamesh seemed to understand that the Grail was created after he could have possibly ever owned it. He is a few millennia old, while the Grail is only a few hundreds of years old. Kirei had to convince Gilgamesh that it was something he should bother himself with.

I can't recall the scene, but if it did happen then it could work..

[Kraco]

Quite the opposite, actually.

Kirei asked Kiritsugu why he didn't obtain the grail after all the work he's put in, and Kiritsugu said that the cost outweighs the benefit. Kiritsugu saw that there's no point in walking down his road till the end anymore because the end isn't what he had hoped it would be (his miracle). Any further benefits couldn't make up for the cost he'd have to pay, so he just stopped in his tracks.

At this moment in time, Kiritsugu is just a mass murderer because he ended up killing for nothing.

No, don't fall for such overly simplistic thought processes. If he had chosen family (to be exactly, Iri and Illya), it means he would have dropped all he had fought for until then for his own happiness. In reality he had discarded his own happiness a long time ago to fight the bloody battle for statistically greater good. So, he couldn't anymore afford to become happy if it had assumed a choice between the fight and the happiness. It's not that different from Shirou's pov, except that Shirou didn't carry the past sins and was thus grossly mistaken.

By destroying the grail he didn't let go of his path. The grail turned out to be another evil to be vanquished instead of the miracle he was hoping to find. Of course we learned from FSN this was also a dead-end of a sort for his path as a hero. However, he did stay true to his idealism and thus he remained an idealist, not a simple mass murderer of no purpose.

[shinta|hikari]

I think Buff was saying he is a mass murderer when looking at the results only.

[Kraco]

I think Buff was saying he is a mass murderer when looking at the results only.

There's no question that he's a mass murderer, but even so a mass murderer can be another man's hero if he was fighting for a bigger cause. But if he was fighting for nothing (that is, drops the cause for his own fortune), he won't be anybody's hero.

[Buffalobiian]

I think Buff was saying he is a mass murderer when looking at the results only.

Yes, that's what I was saying. And as far as Kiritsugu's concerned, that's all that counts.


There's no question that he's a mass murderer, but even so a mass murderer can be another man's hero if he was fighting for a bigger cause. But if he was fighting for nothing (that is, drops the cause for his own fortune), he won't be anybody's hero.

Exactly. Right now, Kiritsugu's stopped fighting. He killed all those people for effectively nothing. Had he gone further, he'd be an even BIGGER murderer, but he'd save his wife and child. To them he'd be their hero for doing all this. But now that he's not willing to go further for results, he's turned his prior killings into a sunk cost.

Come to think of it actually.. the Grail was rather contradictory in its presentation of Kiritsugu's wish.

Sure, the grail wasn't the miracle save-all that Kiritsugu had hoped for, but it said it could grant his wish on a large scale right? (That is, elimination of the minority in conflicts on a global scale).. so thinking about it that way it should have been a good choice to keep it even if it wasn't the miracle Kiritsugu was seeking.

Instead, it weirdly made Kiritsugu choose between his wife/daughter and the world.. as if it had to kill 6 billion people on the planet in order to grant it..

[Kraco]

So, to be a hero you'd need to be a god who knows the future? You are holding far too high standards. Kiritsugu was hoping for a miracle, but when he realised he had found nothing of that sort, quite the contrary, he chose to destroy it. He always destroyed the evil, even if he had to sacrife a little good for it. But this time he was looking for a definite miracle, not the same kind of compromise that had led to his own ruined life. It's not like he'd liked what h'd been doing. But being a real hero who saves everybody would have been too difficult, like he later told Shirou. A miracle should have allowed that.

He failed, but not for lack of trying but for the lack of the system. He was the last master standing but judged the grail more evil than good. That was his prerogative.

[Buffalobiian]

I'm not blaming him for not seeing this coming - I can't expect anyone to.

It doesn't change the fact all he's accomplished thus far (as far as achieving the grail's concerned) is mass murder.

The choice he was presented by the grail was to be simply a mass murderer, or a bigger mass murderer who saved his two family. Kiritsugu chose the former.

[Kraco]

The choice he was presented by the grail was to be simply a mass murderer, or a bigger mass murderer who saved his two family. Kiritsugu chose the former.

I don't understand anymore if you are arguing for something... Kiritsugu is a mass murderer no matter what. The question is whether he fought for something or not. Up until now he fought against greater evil. Since he judged the grail to be greater evil, he had no choice but to destroy it. His family played no part in the equation, it never did, which is what made him such a remorseless magekiller in the first place. The grail made a big mistake by even trying to rely on that.

[Buffalobiian]

I don't understand anymore if you are arguing for something... Kiritsugu is a mass murderer no matter what.

I was arguing against the representation of the quote below:


It's not like being a happy husband and a loving father would have changed his past, in fact it would have only made him a massmurderer and nothing more if he hadn't been ready to see the road till the very end.

I disagreed with that because choosing the grail would have made him a mass murderer but a trying father/husband (as opposed to "nothing more"), while currently he's taken the best possible route out of the mess he got himself into (the grail war) and choosing the path of least carnage.

In other words:

Kiritsugu chose to fight in the grail war (and was willing to expend as many lives of people as necessary) because he thought he could make up for it all in the end. He now learns that he can't make up for it, so is instead choosing to minimise the casualties.

On the other hand, had Kiritsugu chosen his wife and child instead, he would have to kill more people by releasing the grail. He would still be a murderer, but he'd have accomplished something in the end nonetheless (even if it turns out to be an ultimately selfish result of liberating/reviving his wife and child).

The argument was based on our differing views on which outcome was the "murderer and nothing more", and which was the "murderer who fought for something".



I should clarify one more time that I don't really understand the way things played out at the end of the grail's speech. The "Einzburn vs Maiya" scenario should have been one of the "ethical questions" that the grail was testing Kiritsugu with so he'll discover what his wish/method is.. but what exactly did Maiya or the Einzburns represent? The sinking-ship question at least makes sense.

[Kraco]

On the other hand, had Kiritsugu chosen his wife and child instead, he would have to kill more people by releasing the grail. He would still be a murderer, but he'd have accomplished something in the end nonetheless (even if it turns out to be an ultimately selfish result of liberating/reviving his wife and child).

He did achieve something in the end: He stopped the grail. Sure, it's the complete opposite of what he thought he was going for, but he turned out to have known far too little when the game began. This whole grail war was nothing but a single battle in Kiritsugu's own long war. If he had done anything else than what he did, it would have meant he forgot his whole earlier life with its myriad fights and sacrifices. He was an idealist (mass murderer) because he didn't forget. He would have been only an opportunistic mass murderer if he had forgotten and used the grail to save the family. Besides, I believe he's like Shirou in believing that the past shouldn't be changed.

[Marik]

[UTW] Fate Zero - 25 [h264-720p][DEBA6F45].mkv (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=325322)

[shinta|hikari]

FSN became a better show.

[Buffalobiian]

FSN became a better show.

If nothing else, it's moved up the ranks on the "should watch" ladder since it serves as a "recommended prerequisite" for FZ.

You could watch FZ without it, but you'd get a lot of "who is this?" and "why should I care?".

We could say that there was a bit of inconsistency there when Kirei gave Rin the dagger, since in FZN she said that she received it from Kirei when she became a full-fledged mage. One could argue that becoming the head of a magi family is synonymous with that, but not in the strictest sense..

And it looks like according to FZ, a sword-clash between Saber and Gil never happened as the first segments of FSN depicts it.

[Kraco]

Ignoring the funeral service in what goes for English in Japan, this was a solid last episode. We saw Sakura's real face, how Rin disliked Kirei, Kiritsugu trying to fetch Ilya but failing, and the last scene between Shirou and Kiritsugu, tying this nicely together with the later events. Maybe there are a couple of slight inconsistencies like Bill mentioned, but nothing too bad. In the end FSN itself is three different stories with somewhat different outcomes (that the anime tried to mix together in a giant blender), so such inconsistencies are inconsequential in the end.

An unexpected detail was Aoi actually surviving, even if badly damaged. I though Rin lost both parents. Although losing both might have been easier in the long run than this. Aoi might be dead already by the time the next war begins, since she was never mentioned, I believe.

A formidable show all in all.

[Ryllharu]

Perhaps more like the moment the last sliver of hope that Sakura had disappears. I don't think she really believed Kariya when he hugged her and told her he would save her after what she had gone through almost immediately after being taken in, but deep down she might have hoped it could be true.

Of course we don't really know what Kariya actually said to her or how much Zouken told her what Kariya had done, we only got to see Kariya's final hallucination.

I did smirk at the quick flash of Kirei reveling in Rin's tears. It was only for a second, but he smiled at seeing her break down. It was also nice to find out that Kiritsugu didn't willingly abandon Ilya. He tried to get her back, so he could keep her safe. That just accelerated his death and hopelessness.

[shinta|hikari]

The dagger scene was perfect. It was Kirei's greed for suffering that eventually led to his death.

[Archangel]

Fate/Stay Night Heavens Feel adaptation by ufotable confirmed (http://yaraon.blog109.fc2.com/blog-entry-17363.html)

WHAT UP!???

[Kraco]

The moonrunes on that page says it's HF (with a credible source)? From what I've seen, people don't (yet) know what it's going to be, but many guess a remake.

I don't really know what to hope for, since I consider a UBW series highly unlikely with the movie already made. The first anime hasn't aged too well and is a bit of a mess towards the end, so Fate could also use a retelling. HF is my least favourite of the routes, but of course I'd happily watch it animated.

[NeoCybercoin]

My body is ready.

[Buffalobiian]

Okay, more motivation to finish HF then.

[Munsu]

Sorry for bumping this as there are other Fate threads... but I finally began watching Fate/Zero, and just finished the first season. I only have to say 3 things for now.

First, this has been much better than I anticipated and hoped so far.

Second, pretty much love all the characters with few exceptions... some real badasses from the Masters side.

Third, it's now disappointing to see what ufotable has moved towards to animation-wise (more CGI) in projects since then.

Anyways, hope the 2nd season is even better, and I really like this format of "hour" long episodes. Not sure how the release schedule was when it was airing though, and how censored the episodes were... lots of blood in the BD version.

[Buffalobiian]

I'm pretty sure only the first episode of each season was 1hr long, and the rest were half-hr eps.

[Munsu]

I'm pretty sure only the first episode of each season was 1hr long, and the rest were half-hr eps.

Hmm... you're quite correct. Not sure why I had that impression. I was sure I had checked, and guess I felt each episode had plenty going on... regardless, you're right.

[KrayZ33]

Fate Zero had really good pacing in my opinion, that's probably why you felt they lasted longer.

[Munsu]

And done with the series. This was a very cool series, and it certainly surpassed my expectations. Only wish we didn't spend so much time throughout the series with Waver.

Also wish we had spent more time with Kiritsugu.

Nothing more to say I guess, on to the next one when I can then... Fate/Stay Night: Unlimited Blade Works TV? Or which?

[Kraco]

The UBW series also has BD rips available. I suggest you get those. But yes, watch that series next.