Fate/Zero

[Buffalobiian]

(but I doubt it).

I doubt it too. The whole point of his spears (and his Noble Phantasms) is the curse and anti-magic ability. If one or both of them were instilled by his current master, Lancer would be pretty worthless, lol.

You're right in that 5th war Lancer had a curse on his.. I wasn't aware that he had any magical ability worth mentioning though. Curses themselves are something of a common theme in Irish Folklore.. so I was siding with the belief that these warriors obtained their weapons rather than crafting it or enchanting it themselves.

[David75]

The UBW arc is the only one (I think) where we learn of 5th war lancer magical abilities.
The anti-healing curse is mentionned in the FSN anime, around the time Excalibur's scabbard is introduced.

[NeoCybercoin]

5th War Lancer could use Runes but that is the closest thing he has to magic.

[David75]

5th War Lancer could use Runes but that is the closest thing he has to magic.

I do remember the narration telling he had a good level in magic in the game's UBW arc. But it's not that important since he only used some runes to light the fire burning the place.

[Xelbair]

He was, but he could only use runes(which were pretty strong, but they had limited effect types), saber can't use her thumb, and believe me - fighting with two-handed sword without one thumb is nigh impossible if you want to use two hands.(yes i'm speaking from experience about that one)

[Archangel]

...really? You got into a lot of duels using a broadsword and without your thumbs? Is that your average Tuesday?

[shinta|hikari]

While your sarcasm is warranted, what he says does make sense. Still, Saber can fight fine without one hand. What she can't do is use her noble phantasm, which is deadly in a war of such a high level.

[Archangel]

I understand the point but the fact remains that the injury is her own fault, she underperformed during her battle with Lancer and has been falling short ever since as well.

[shinta|hikari]

Oh I am not refuting that. I agree. I just wanted to set things straight to those who think hack and slash battles are important to Arturia if she had both hands.

[animus]

While Lancer is pretty badass for wielding 2 lances, if this is all his Noble Phantasm's can do it's pretty boring. One just pierces magic armor, and the other inflicts unhealable wounds.

[Buffalobiian]

While Lancer is pretty badass for wielding 2 lances, if this is all his Noble Phantasm's can do it's pretty boring. One just pierces magic armor, and the other inflicts unhealable wounds.

The first blade ignores/dispells magic. It could potentially cut through any magical attack.. but that potential hasn't been touched on yet.

[Archangel]

If you ask me, his lances are a whole more interesting than saber's golden magic beam of doom. They open the field for strategy and aren't a "i win" button.

[shinta|hikari]

Interesting, yes. Powerful, no. He is probably the weakest servant in the war, except maybe for Assassin who relies on numbers and espionage.

[Archangel]

Interesting, yes. Powerful, no. He is probably the weakest servant in the war, except maybe for Assassin who relies on numbers and espionage.
Your so called weakest servant made the strongest class his bitch.

[fireheart]

Isn't Lancer one of the 3 major classes? Personally I think both Lancers so far have been some of the stronger servants, 5th with his reversing cause and effect instant stab your heart spear and didn't Saber say that it's more effective in this war than hers because it's anti personal which is more suited and he can use it more often? Then there's this one with his two spears that are well suited for fighting pretty much most servants. The fact that there are some OP servants like Archers is a different matter, in terms of Noble Phantasms Saber feels more like a lot of hype to me since all you can avoid Excalibur if you're far away (Not that we've seen anyone try that) or just stop her swing if you're close enough + the amount of mana it requires. True you're probably dead if you get hit by it but you can say that about most Noble Phantasms.

[Buffalobiian]

Saber is supposedly to have the best stats aside from Beserker. 5th war Lancer's ability was either limited to 5 a day.. or was completely unlimited.

[Xelbair]

that lancer was able to stand on equal ground in fight versus saber, and you dare to call him weak?

[Ryllharu]

One of Saber's major weaknesses is how strong her Noble Phantasm is. Excalibur uses a tremendous amount of her prana. She nearly disappeared right then and there when she used it in the 5th War (though a part of that was she was not being fed the proper energy by her Master). If Saber misses, she's drained the majority of her energy and is weakened.

A servant like either Lancer uses energy far more conservatively. Both need to get up close and personal to do substantial damage, but it is there that the two of them excel anyway. Contrast the two of them to the respective Berserkers. They use enormous amounts of their Master's energy, and fight in similar ways to the Lancers, up close. This way, while Lancer distracts a Servant, his Master could easily be using their own energy in a support role, the same way that Rin fought in the 5th War, and Irisviel assists Saber from the sidelines. Ilya, even with her tremendous reserves, was not (or did not) use that option, and Kariya can barely stand.

Excalibur is also so devastating that Saber feared to use it anywhere but on top of a building, and due to her noble nature, she wouldn't use it where innocents could get caught in the way. She would largely have to be forced via command spell to use it on the ground. The two Lancer's face none of those concerns.

[shinta|hikari]

And don't forget Avalon.

[Ryllharu]

And don't forget Avalon.
What about it? It isn't offensive.

[shinta|hikari]

Were we talking about offense only? I thought it was about who is stronger. Defense is included in that, especially if it is absolute.

[Ryllharu]

How much prana would it burn if Saber ever used it herself to protect her from a lethal blow or a noble phantasm as strong as Excalibur?

edit: I think my point stands. Saber's weakness is how strong she is.

Different classes require different strategies. One isn't weaker than the other. Archer and Lancer are best used by a supporting mage, Berserker requires only an energy source, Rider is mixed. Assassin requires demands someone intelligent, always thinking of strategy. Caster is best with a Master that acts as a protector, due to their class' weakness to direct confrontations. Saber works both ways, but this Saber is better off with just a battery, like Berserker.

[shinta|hikari]

I didn't refute your point. I just wanted to add to Saber's arsenal, because everyone seems to have forgotten about it.

[fireheart]

One of Saber's major weaknesses is how strong her Noble Phantasm is.

Isn't Archers Noble Phantasm stronger? In the end it doesn't matter what stats you have as it's all about the person wielding them.


Excalibur is also so devastating that Saber feared to use it anywhere but on top of a building, and due to her noble nature, she wouldn't use it where innocents could get caught in the way. She would largely have to be forced via command spell to use it on the ground.

Hasn't she already used it a couple of times on the ground in the 5th war?


I just wanted to add to Saber's arsenal, because everyone seems to have forgotten about it.

We haven't forgotten about it, it's just that she doesn't have it so there's no reason to add something to her arsenal that she doesn't have at this time).

[Ryllharu]

Isn't Archers Noble Phantasm stronger? In the end it doesn't matter what stats you have as it's all about the person wielding them.

If by Archer you mean Gilgamesh, then Enuma Elish (that functions the same way using his sword Ea) is stronger. But it doesn't by design use up most of his prana the way the Noble Phantasm Excalibur is meant to use most of Saber's. He is able to use it multiple times.

If you mean 5th War Archer...no. They don't even compare. UBW makes imitations only, they will always be weaker than the real thing.


Hasn't she already used it a couple of times on the ground in the 5th war?If by "couple" you're including the one time against Gilgamesh right at the end, it wasn't the full power Excalibur. The only time she used it was the time she killed Rider. Her Noble Phantasm Excalibur is this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TnnpMfLteQ#t=1m55s).

As I said, Excalibur the Noble Phantasm, not the sword itself, is extremely draining on her prana. They are two different things. The sword just happens to be her weapon of the same name and the tool used to unleash her Noble Phantasm. The Noble Phantasm is the sword's ability to convert her magical energy into light and accelerating it as a focused beam. She nearly faded away the first time she used it in the 5th War, that's how strong it is compared to her reserves. Since she has a much more competent mage as her Master in the 4th War, it should be less of a problem.

[Buffalobiian]

If by "couple" you're including the one time against Gilgamesh right at the end, it wasn't the full power Excalibur. The only time she used it was the time she killed Rider. Her Noble Phantasm Excalibur is this.

I'm pretty sure Saber used Excalibur against Enuma Elish once or twice before using the Avalon combo. That's how we know about the power difference.


Isn't Archers Noble Phantasm stronger? In the end it doesn't matter what stats you have as it's all about the person wielding them.

I'm assuming you're talking about Gilgamesh. Stats rate Noble Phantasms too.

[David75]

.....but this Saber is better off with just a battery, like Berserker.

A battery and a very strong willed master.
Her will to fight, go head on into traps and even despising (almost) her master when he's a pure strategist like Kiritsugu really means trouble.

[Kraco]

Hasn't she already used it a couple of times on the ground in the 5th war?


Discounting the first optimal one aimed almost straight up, the second one was used at the top of a mountain, making it a pretty safe place.

[fireheart]

If by Archer you mean Gilgamesh, then Enuma Elish (that functions the same way using his sword Ea) is stronger. But it doesn't by design use up most of his prana the way the Noble Phantasm Excalibur is meant to use most of Saber's. He is able to use it multiple times.

Yeah I mean Gilgamesh.


If by "couple" you're including the one time against Gilgamesh right at the end, it wasn't the full power Excalibur. The only time she used it was the time she killed Rider. Her Noble Phantasm Excalibur is this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TnnpMfLteQ#t=1m55s).

Discounting the first optimal one aimed almost straight up, the second one was used at the top of a mountain, making it a pretty safe place.

Had to check to make sure but the second time looked like they were by the river that divides the city since they were on their way home when they ran into Gilgamesh which lead to Saber using Excalibur.

[shinta|hikari]

I really don't understand why you are nitpicking on the exact location. What matters to Saber is that other people don't get hurt.

[Fate Ataraxia spoiler. Highlight to read:]BTW, Enuma Elish was never used at even half of its power. It is a sword attack famed to be able to destroy the world once unleashed in full force, so even Gil never used it at maximum.
If you look at the damage stat gap between Excalibur (2nd most powerful) and Enuma, you will LOL.[End censor]

[Kraco]

Had to check to make sure but the second time looked like they were by the river that divides the city since they were on their way home when they ran into Gilgamesh which lead to Saber using Excalibur.

Oh, I didn't remember she used it by the river. My mistake.

[Archangel]

Saber's Rocket Launcher nay be powerful but honestly a handgun or a revolver ( read as 4th War's lances and 5th War's lances ) at best are probably the most useful tools for this War.

Also, using the analogy, i guess the 5th War's Berserker would be a tank.

[Marik]

[UTW] Fate Zero - 08 - 720p: Torrent (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=261381) | DDL1 (http://www.fileserve.com/file/vmHrz2r) | DDL2 (http://www.filesonic.com/file/3953091324)

[ASL] LISA - Fate Zero OP Single - oath sign [MP3].rar (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=261355)
[ASL] LISA - Fate Zero OP Single - oath sign [FLAC].rar (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=261356)
[ASL] LISA - Fate Zero OP Single - oath sign [DVD EXTRA].rar (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=261354)

Note: This DVD came with the Fate/Zero OP single. It contains the TV size opening without credits.

[Kraco]

Though I hold Saber overhyped as she is now, but with Avalon she might actually live up to the hype - if only she had the mentality to go along with it. Her naive goodwill worked this time with Lancer, largely due to Archibald being unconscious and thus unable to tell Lancer to slay Kiritsugu. In that sense Lancer was just bullshitting: Saber could have arrived at the location just as fast as he did and prevent him from killing Kiritsugu; it's not like Lancer would have known Saber was busy looking for Iris.

It shows Kiritsugu's quality that he had Iris hold Avalon. He might be a ruthless mage killer but he's still a real man beneath. I don't think Kotomine is judging him quite fairly.

I'm really liking the bizarre magic Type-Moon can come up with, like what's behind Kiritsugu's bullets.

[shinta|hikari]

Mage Killer. He really lives up to the name.

Saber is as honorable as always, and despite how disappointing it is that it is fucking with Kiritsugu's plans (my current favorite character in Zero), she has to be that way, if she is to stay as one of my favorite characters of all time.

Lancer was telling the truth, but it was also true that the only reason he could be there and say that is because Saber let him go due to goodwill. He said it so arrogantly that it almost seems that he forgot that he was given a favour as well, but that was intentional so as not to let Kiritsugu kill his master, or (more likely) die in the process.

Lancer was lying when he said that if Saber had both hands, things would have ended that quickly. It would have ended much quicker. Saber does not hold back on scum.

Kotomine Kirei is the boss. He is my 2nd favorite character in Zero. How the hell anyone survived encountering him in the 5th grail war is beyond me. Maybe Kiritsugu did some permanent damage to him in this war, paving the way for his adopted son to finish the job.

EDIT: The preview hinted that Lancer's female master will try to obtain the command seals from blob guy, and he was complaining how Lancer is not that great a guy. How pathetic is it to be jealous of your own servant's passive ability, especially when it comes from a mole?

EDIT2: Shirou would have owned Kotomine if they were both at their peak, since he did manage to become a heroic spirit, but when they encountered each other at the 5th war, Shirou was a crappy kid who can't even use his marbles (pun intended) properly.

EDIT3: We really need to see Saber use Excalibur again so that we can get rid of this overhyped illusion everyone is getting. I do agree that her honor and naivety works against her most of the time.

[Archangel]

Yet again Saber manages to under perform, this time by not only ruining Kiritsugu's plans but to the point of revealing essential tactical information to the enemy. Hopefully she'll get bitch slapped for this in the next episode.

How exactly did Kotomine get out of that wire trap? It looked like he was banging something against the tree...? And I wonder how he'll respond once he finds out Kiritsugu is surrounded by hoes people who care for his well being.

I loled at the preview, poor blob guy is getting NTRed hard. He must hate waver so much for taking Alexander away from him. He was lucky though, having the mana flow coming from another master means Lancer's fighting ability won't be harmed by his now utterly fucked up circuits.

[fireheart]

EDIT: The preview hinted that Lancer's female master will try to obtain the command seals from blob guy, and he was complaining how Lancer is not that great a guy. How pathetic is it to be jealous of your own servant's passive ability, especially when it comes from a mole?

That's probably done on purpose to mirror his legend so it's not surprising and why shouldn't he be jealous of Lancer? He gets girls just by having them look at him and if Kayneth has a close relationship to her then it messes with a lot of things seeing as Lancer more or less steals her away from him. Not saying that Lancer wants that or is even remotely interested in her since he can't do anything about the mole except cover it but I'd say it'd be unrealistic for Kayneth not to be affected. It's easy to logically understand that Lancer has no interest in her and only wish to serve his master as an honorable knight but understanding it emotionally and putting all the unrest to ease is a different matter. So you may think it's pathetic though I say it's warranted if they're in a relationship that is.


How exactly did Kotomine get out of that wire trap? It looked like he was banging something against the tree...? And I wonder how he'll respond once he finds out Kiritsugu is surrounded by hoes people who care for his well being

I'm guessing with martial arts since it reminded me of the fighting game plus the fact that he took up a stance with his legs.

[shinta|hikari]

Kotomine probably just broke the tree using his (magic enhanced) strength, either by hitting it with this head or pushing off the ground.

@Fire - I never said it was unwarranted. I just said it is pathetic. I don't get people trying to oppose something that I never said in the first place.

[Kraco]

I found it funny Kotomine was so sure of his fighting prowess he didn't even bother to call Assassin to deal with the ladies. No matter how weak servants they are, it would still take at least late UBW Shirou's level of (close combat) ability to put up any sort of fight against them. Based on this fight Iris and Maiya are quite far below that. Still, more dramatic this way. Seeing Iris fight was a big plus.

[shinta|hikari]

I'm thinking that those Assassins are only at E or D rank in terms of physical fighting ability. Kotomine is probably well beyond that. He simply didn't need them. That, and he probably didn't want people seeing Assassin, who is supposed to be dead, loitering about.

Before anyone complains, spying and fighting have a totally different level of visibility.

[Archangel]

I found it funny Kotomine was so sure of his fighting prowess he didn't even bother to call Assassin to deal with the ladies. No matter how weak servants they are, it would still take at least late UBW Shirou's level of (close combat) ability to put up any sort of fight against them. Based on this fight Iris and Maiya are quite far below that. Still, more dramatic this way. Seeing Iris fight was a big plus.
I thought you had played Heaven's Feel.

[Kraco]

I'm thinking that those Assassins are only at E or D rank in terms of physical fighting ability. Kotomine is probably well beyond that. He simply didn't need them.

Yeah, my post was kind of empty in the sense Kotomine is indeed himself above that level requirement. However, he was tied to a tree for a moment. If Iris had been more brutal, she could have strangled him as well, not only tie his arms.


I thought you had played Heaven's Feel.

What has that got to do with anything? Especially considering HF is not to be talked in this thread.

[fireheart]

@Fire - I never said it was unwarranted. I just said it is pathetic. I don't get people trying to oppose something that I never said in the first place.

Sorry but don't find things that are warranted as pathetic since his reasons are quite plausible and don't see any reason to hold it against him. And you kinda left it as a question so I answered not so much to oppose you with something you didn't say rather explain why I don't find it pathetic by stating it's not unwarranted.

[shinta|hikari]

Warranted =! Not pathetic.

It can be perfectly understandable yet pitiful at the same time.

Are you saying that if you understand how someone feels, you can't see them as pathetic? That does not make much sense.

Also, by saying it is not pathetic because it is warranted, when I said it is pathetic (without saying it is unwarranted), is technically opposing me on grounds that I never even stated.

[Ryllharu]

Anyone know who Kiritsugu's teacher is? She kind of reminded me of Aozaki Touko, though we know for a fact that it wasn't her. She'd have graduated the magic academy for a while now, but that flashback was from even further back. FSN is in 2003 or 2004 if I'm not mistaken, so Kara no Kyoukai takes place right after the 4th Grail War. If anyone knows the exact year FSN takes place in, please correct me. F/Z is ten years prior to it, and KnK gives exact dates in the mid-90s.

Damn, Lancer is pretty cool. Cooler than 5th War Lancer for sure (though to be fair, his treatment in Carnival Phantasm is really undermining his credibility, while Caster's, Berserker's, Rider's and Saber's are getting boosted.) I also really like the contempt that both he and Saber share for Kiritsugu.

I'm also glad that Iris and Maiya avoided any potential feud they might have had over Kiritsugu. They both love him, both of them know it, and don't mind sharing as long as he's safe.


EDIT: The preview hinted that Lancer's female master will try to obtain the command seals from blob guy, and he was complaining how Lancer is not that great a guy. How pathetic is it to be jealous of your own servant's passive ability, especially when it comes from a mole?

@Fire - I never said it was unwarranted. I just said it is pathetic. I don't get people trying to oppose something that I never said in the first place.
It's actually a really big deal though. That mole is a geis, one that is paradoxically both a blessing and a curse. It's that mole that started the events that got him killed (amusingly enough, via another geis, the death kind). Irish geis like that one usually share the typical violation of death if they are broken. His mole of lust is no doubt just as powerful.

More pathetic is Kayneth's arrogance. He is stupid enough to believe that he is smarter than Kiritsugu, which is what allowed Kiritsugu to so easily best him, and he is arrogant enough to think he was smarter than everyone else by bringing along his fiancée as a secret weapon. Obviously Kiritsugu did exactly the same, and it's working out for him rather well. Unless Kayneth doesn't know who is own Servant is (and he certainly should know after Lancer told Saber) or simply doesn't care, he'd know that he should have sent her away. She's only going to undermine him in an attempt to...give Lancer a magical recharge if you know what I mean.

That thinking is what is getting Kayneth killed. He truly believes that mages are better than everyone else, and don't fall prey to this sort of thing. That became abundantly clear as he rationalized how Kiritsugu shot him. He actually convinced himself that he allowed it to happen! Now he is likely underestimating how much Sola is getting seduced by that mole.

[David75]

KK running against a machinegun spewing bullets was a bit too overthetop for me. Even if he has somekind of reinforcement magic.
What can you do, as a limited human being, against someone like that when you get to see that?

[shinta|hikari]

Learn magic?

@Ryll - That is precisely what I am getting at. I am not underestimating the effect of the mole (that sounded stupid), but rather how Kayneth is handling it. He is the master. He should have known, and still should know, better.

[fireheart]

Yes I am saying if I can understand how they're feeling I don't see them as pathetic, how does it not make sense? People have reasons for doing what they do and if I can find them plausible I don't find them to be pathetic. Also if I can understand how they're feeling what's to say I wouldn't do the same in that situation, should I call myself pathetic as if it's something bad? Let me ask you what's so pathetic about him being jealous over some guy stealing his girl (assuming she is)? At least if you mean pathetic in the sense of him being worthless.

Again you asked how pathetic it is to be jealous over his passive ability (though that could have been an rhetorical question), I thought about it and found it plausible and gave an answer that the jealousy that you found him to be pathetic for is warranted and imo does not make him pathetic. But if you want I can just give you a yes or no next time.

Edit: Read the post above yes he should have known better that I can agree on.

[shinta|hikari]

If you can understand how someone feels, it should not limit you to being able to pity them or not. It is a purely argumentative issue, and not about how you personally feel. You (A person) definitely CAN pity someone even while (or even more so) because you (he/she knows) know how they feel.

[fireheart]

It doesn't limit me from being able to feel for them it just limits me from calling them pathetic. And it's not a bigger deal than that, I just can't call him pathetic for feeling insecure about his fiancée falling in love with his servant.

Edit: I know that pathetic can be used in terms of pity as well but to me it has a lot more negative connotation so I can't use it if I understand the person or where they're coming from. So I can pity those people but can't call them pathetic.

[shinta|hikari]

If you are saying that you personally cannot see someone you can understand as pathetic, then that is fine.

I must have misunderstood thinking that you are saying that people in general cannot do so. I had no intention of invalidating your personal views.

[Buffalobiian]

Fuck. You. Kotomine. Kirei.

Iri surviving doesn't make me feel any better towards you, but it will make me sleep better tonight (and give Kiritsugu 9000+ extra points on top of his already Over 9000 epicness).

Only two ribs? I'd grind up every bone I can to make those bullets - but if grinding up your body transfers your ability (and having your body pierced potentially stuffing it up), I guess your magic circuit must diminish from such an extraction.

We got a detailed shot of the bullet that Kiritsugu used the second time.. so that's the one that contained Kiritsugu's ribs? When I first understood it, I was assuming the first bullet was the one that fucked him up. It's how he pierced the the barrier in the first place, and retied the guy's magic circuit in a warped way. Kayneth was affected when he overloaded his circuit to defend against the second bullet. So.. why the special view? It certainly looked like a non-regular casing - just a magically enhanced damage x500 bullet?

I don't get Saber's bitching. She and Lancer can fight as honourably as they want. The Magi can duke it out however they want. From memory, I don't think Saber had a problem with going after Masters in the 5th war since she understand that doing so is the most effective way to beat an enemy. Not allowing Lancer's master to die is like saying that the fight has to solely rely on servant-servant combat.

[Archangel]

Umad because Kotomine-sama had to slap a hoe? She was disrespectin him!

I'd imagine she learned her lesson since then, which would explain why she seemed so much more dependable and reliable then than she does now.

[shinta|hikari]

It was her way of thanking Lancer for saving her from the fodder summoned by caster.

I think the 1st bullet was also made from Kiritsugu's bones, but since the magic used to defend it was minimal, it also had minimal effect. Kiritsugu himself said that he wanted blob guy to use all his powers to defend the next shot. I believe that meant that the more magic is used to affect that bullet, the more the bullet has an effect on the user. The high level defensive move that blob guy used the 2nd time was what screwed him over.

[Ryllharu]

I don't get Saber's bitching. She and Lancer can fight as honourably as they want. The Magi can duke it out however they want. From memory, I don't think Saber had a problem with going after Masters in the 5th war since she understand that doing so is the most effective way to beat an enemy. Not allowing Lancer's master to die is like saying that the fight has to solely rely on servant-servant combat.
It's not the act of going after a Master instead of a Servant, it's the method. Saber didn't mind with Shirou because he's a dumbass. Every time they attacked another Master or Servant in Caster's case, they went right for it, head first. They were also saving people each time (the school, the people Caster preyed on). Saber doesn't like the cloak and dagger stuff, she rushes in without thinking too much.

As for Lancer leaving to rescue Kayneth and Saber not pursuing, the two of them promised an honorable fight, and Saber would have rushed to save Iris the same way. She was allowing Lancer to retreat with a promise that she at least would not stab him in the back as he did so.

[Buffalobiian]

Umad because Kotomine-sama had to slap a hoe? She was disrespectin him!

I'm mad because Kotomine no yatsu stabbed my favourite chick to see if she was warm human-ish.


I think the 1st bullet was also made from Kiritsugu's bones, but since the magic used to defend it was minimal, it also had minimal effect. Kiritsugu himself said that he wanted blob guy to use all his powers to defend the next shot. I believe that meant that the more magic is used to affect that bullet, the more the bullet has an effect on the user. The high level defensive move that blob guy used the 2nd time was what screwed him over.

I don't think the two attacks were the same. Kiritsugu said himself: "Now that he realises how strong that attack is, it won't work a second time. He'll put all his mana into defending. I need him to do it."


It's not the act of going after a Master instead of a Servant, it's the method. Saber didn't mind with Shirou because he's a dumbass. Every time they attacked another Master or Servant in Caster's case, they went right for it, head first. They were also saving people each time (the school, the people Caster preyed on). Saber doesn't like the cloak and dagger stuff, she rushes in without thinking too much.

Hmm.. I see where you're coming from. The reason behind my earlier comment was that this fight wasn't exactly assassination. Kayneth was looking for a fight, and he got it. Kiritsugu was hiding, sure - but that's like backing down in combat. Only he backs out of sight. :P

Then again, Saber doesn't necessarily know that Kiritsugu's fighting so much more "evenly" this time round.

I suppose my own Sneak-Dagger play style may affect which character I like to side with.

[fireheart]

Could be wrong but thought the first bullet was a normal one since there's quite a big difference in how Kayneth reacted to the bullets there's also no visible bullet wound on Kayneth that I can see from the second shot and lastly if it's the bullet that rolls around at 16:15 then it only hit the blob.

Wonder how many of those 66 bullets he has left.

[shinta|hikari]

The bullet does not affect flesh, but magic.

The first shot was defended only using minimal magic, so it simply penetrated and hit Kayneth.

The 2nd shot was defended with all of Kayneth's power, thinking it was necessary, and that affected him a great deal.

This all matches with what Kiritsugu said, and it is also supported by the identical bullets he placed in that gun in this episode. The 2nd bullet also never hit Kayneth. It affected him through his magic.

[Buffalobiian]

Could be wrong but thought the first bullet was a normal one since there's quite a big difference in how Kayneth reacted to the bullets there's also no visible bullet wound on Kayneth that I can see from the second shot and lastly if it's the bullet that rolls around at 16:15 then it only hit the blob.

In that case, it's the first bullet that was the bone-bullet.

The fact that the second bullet didn't hit him means it didn't affect him. That means he was already affected, and it was the effect of using his circuit 100% that make him spew blood - not the fact that the second bullet actually did anything.

The explanation about the Kiritsugu's origin is that it permanently damages/corrupts something in a way that isn't readily apparent (tying something back together). It's when you use the damaged product unknowingly that stuffs you up.

Say, Kiritsugu cuts, then reties your mountain rope without you knowing anything was wrong with it. Then he pushes you off the cliff, and you put all your weight onto the rope thinking it will save you. The knot stuffs you up and you go "oh shiiiiiiii-"

[fireheart]

Going by what shinta said it doesn't make sense that the first bullet was his origin bullet since if it affects magic and not the flesh it shouldn't have left a bullet hole in Kayneth and since the second shot only hit his magic it would make sense that it severed and reconnected every magic circuit that was being used for that magic. Also if I understood the explanations correct then it would have messed up Kayneths magic circuits from the start and not at the second bullet so it makes more sense that they were severed and reconnected at the second shot when he was using the most power than at the first when he was using less.

[shinta|hikari]

Thinking back, it is possible that the 1st bullet was normal. The gun itself just had to be abnormally powerful, making the mage defend himself with magic, like Kayneth did.

[fireheart]

Well there's also the whole point that if it severs and reconnects every magic circuit no matter if they're using them or not he wouldn't have to wait and should have just shot him with it right from the start and the end results would have been the same effect and if it's like that then what Kiritsugu did was pointless.

[Buffalobiian]

Going by what shinta said it doesn't make sense that the first bullet was his origin bullet since if it affects magic and not the flesh it shouldn't have left a bullet hole in Kayneth and since the second shot only hit his magic it would make since that it severed and reconnected every magic circuit that was being used for that magic.

Nothing said that the bullet affects magic only. It's a normal bullet with some bone infused into it. It will still damage you like a normal bullet - plus the Origin effect it now has.


Also if I understood the explanations correct then it would have messed up Kayneths magic circuits from the start and not at the second bullet so it makes more sense that they were severed and reconnected at the second shot when he was using the most power than at the first when he was using less.

My understanding was like the rope - its reconnected state works well enough until you overload it. But your explanation just now makes sense as well. I think I actually buy it over my own since it now explains the significance behind the second bullet frame.

By the way, taking into account of your previous post before this, it seems that you equate hitting his silver blob to hitting Kayneth's magic circuit. I don't share that line of thought, but it's certainly possible.

edit: missed the following:


Thinking back, it is possible that the 1st bullet was normal. The gun itself just had to be abnormally powerful, making the mage defend himself with magic, like Kayneth did.

Well there's also the whole point that if it severs and reconnects every magic circuit no matter if they're using them or not he wouldn't have to wait and should have just shot him with it right from the start and the end results would have been the same effect and if it's like that then what Kiritsugu did was pointless.

Yes. That makes complete sense now. :) Also explains why Kiritsugu was using a gun that took.. 2 seconds(?) to load a single bullet.

[David75]

For all we know Bullet 2 is there to force Keyneth go 100% with his powers.
So you can have all hypothesis to work. Bullet 1, Bullet 2 or both being part of the 66.

I'd go with Bullet 1 as the bone particles probably need some time to go through the blood vessels. But it's a huge bet as your opponent could find a way to discard it and you lose one of the precious 66 bullets. It's just that Kiritsugu knows those bastards so much he manipulates them into falling into his traps.

[Buffalobiian]

So you can have all hypothesis to work. Bullet 1, Bullet 2 or both being part of the 66.

Except for the fact that Kiritsugu states that both attacks are different (yet appearing to be the same outwardly), so I'm of the opinion that there ARE difference between the bullets.

Kiritsugu made Kayneth power up, then short-circuited him.

[bagandscalpel]

Well, well, it's a good thing Lancer has the woman to feed him delicious mana, otherwise he could've been just as messed up.

Now to watch as Kayneth gets consumed by impotent rage for the remainder of the show.

[Archangel]

Well, well, it's a good thing Lancer has the woman to feed him delicious mana, otherwise he could've been just as messed up.

Now to watch as Kayneth gets consumed by impotent rage for the remainder of the show.
Oh God... i just realized what he'd have to do if he couldn't supply him with mana regularly through his magical circuits...

[Kraco]

Oh God... i just realized what he'd have to do if he couldn't supply him with mana regularly through his magical circuits...

Haha. I think Lancer would rather kill himself and wait for the next chance to participate in the grail war.

[Archangel]

Haha. I think Lancer would rather kill himself and wait for the next chance to participate in the grail war.
And then he'd have to use his command seals to force him to...

Brb, banging head against the wall as hard as i can.

[Buffalobiian]

Just putting it out there, I don't think the other Magi Association girl has any romantic relationship with Keyneth. That guy's just pissed because he's getting shit-talked in a way that he can't talk back against.

[bagandscalpel]

Oh God... i just realized what he'd have to do if he couldn't supply him with mana regularly through his magical circuits...

You are now imagining that same "what... if" scenario as applied to Waver and Rider.

Another random thought: wonder how much more effective Gay Booty (Gae Buidhe?) would be against Cthulu's Secret Diary, since the latter can apparently heal itself.

[David75]

In the same train of thoughts, it's too bad Irisviel isn't Saber's master :D

[Buffalobiian]

In the same train of thoughts, it's too bad Irisviel isn't Saber's master :D

That doesn't matter. Irisviel will still take care of Saber's needs.. AND Kiritsugu's. ;)

[NeoCybercoin]

I like where this is going.

[Xelbair]

It was her way of thanking Lancer for saving her from the fodder summoned by caster.

I think the 1st bullet was also made from Kiritsugu's bones, but since the magic used to defend it was minimal, it also had minimal effect. Kiritsugu himself said that he wanted blob guy to use all his powers to defend the next shot. I believe that meant that the more magic is used to affect that bullet, the more the bullet has an effect on the user. The high level defensive move that blob guy used the 2nd time was what screwed him over.

NOVEL INFO WARNING ABOUT THE BULLETS - you have been warned: {white text removed}

Arch - to get rid of that image from your head - Kanyeth could use command seal to order him to rape some mage-woman.



Upon reviewing our spoiler rules, we have come to the conclusion that information from the source material (novel, in this case) is a classic case of spoiling considering this is a direct and faithful adaptation. Even whited-out text counts (but your consideration for whiting it out is appreciated).

[Archangel]

Unless that woman had A class magic resistance it wouldn't really be rape.

[Buffalobiian]

I've got many moles, but none of mine are pussy magnets. :(

[KrayZ33]

moles are brownish/blackish buff, not red or white!

[Alhuin]

UTW - Episode 09 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=263126)

[Buffalobiian]

Wow.. Assassin really is weak. And they really expected the King of Conquerors to show his trump card against that level of attack? So much for supporting Gilgamesh now.. though others may not draw the link between Tohsaka and Kotomine's connection in this.

Talking about Tohsaka... Rin's Adventure! :3

[Kraco]

Haha. Rin's Adventure. I'm really looking forward to the next week's ep now.

No wonder the name Emiya might have had a hollow echo to Saber all the way till the 5th war. She's quite incompatible with Kiritsugu. I'm now starting to think Kiritsugu actually bases great many of his actions on fear, which is indeed the opposite to Saber. Of course he's still highly competent for the war, but such an approach has its weaknesses. It's hard to say who exactly is the best master in this war. Tohsaka is a bit disappointing with his continuous scheming and little else. No wonder Gilgamesh is getting tired of him. Luckily Rin didn't take after her dad in that respect.

[Ryllharu]

It's tough to say for sure now exactly how much it is of Sola getting seduced by that mole, and how much is her own nasty, ambitious personality. Was she only getting married to him for politics? I'd say that was likely. Was she waiting for a chance to usurp him this whole time? That's not as clear, though now with her smitten over her Servant, that might have pushed her over the edge.

She was obviously lying to Kayneth about using the grail to heal him when she was trying to convince him into giving up his command seals, but after Lancer refused to serve her the same way and declared that his loyalty remains with Kayneth, she looked torn that she might have to change her mind and go through with it after all.

At least Lancer is recognizing that history appears to be repeating itself. Sadly, that's probably what will get him killed again. Cursed by a woman's geis before, doomed by command seals this time. Too bad. He's really cool.


I really hope someone decides to sculpt a figurine of the shot where Saber is running Mordred through in the ED. It's a really good composition. I would buy it right away.

[Buffalobiian]

I really hope someone decides to sculpt a figurine of the shot where Saber is running Mordred through in the ED. It's a really good composition. I would buy it right away.

Complete with a diorama base. If they make it, it must be perfect.

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 10 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=264988)



----------------------------








:3 <----- was on my face the entire time. Subjectively this will have to be my favourite episode yet. Nearly every other episode has been consistently good, but this one gets a bias bonus.

From the episode title alone last time, I had expected and feared that Rin's Adventure would feature Rin doing something rash and destructive towards her father's plans just because "she wants to help". The direction this episode took managed to keep her childish impulsiveness (but not to the point of repulsiveness), her talent for magic and her cuteness.

Of all the things she said this episode, her frustrated "Mooh!" was the best.

edit: and I guess this is +1 to Kotomine's assholery too, since Tokiomi is bound to be backstabbed. Internal sabotage is the only thing that can go wrong in his otherwise perfect orchestration.

[Kraco]

This was a fine episode, even if objectively speaking it couldn't have been anything but service for Rin fans. It didn't exactly advance the bigger plot. I suppose the inevitable betrayal will feel even worse the more Tokiomi's good sides are shown, and further attachment to Rin is created. But if Fate/Zero is forgotten for a moment, this episode actually benefitted Fate/Stay Night. You can certainly see Rin was Rin even all these years ago.

I'm also really happy it didn't turn out to be Rin inadvertently hampering Tokiomi's plans, not that I'd have expected such from Type-Mooh.

[Buffalobiian]

There is no more doubt now Kraco. Crazy Hair Figure Get!

[Ryllharu]

I thought it was a very good episode in terms of Fate/Zero plot and characterization, even if it was mostly chibi-Rin fanservice. It was a bit of a missed opportunity for Kariya though.

As mentioned, we saw Tokiomi's nicer sides, despite the fact that he still threw away one of his daughters, knowing what they might do to her. But this ultimately benefited Kariya more. He's lurking around keeping an eye from the gutters. How he knew that Rin was around is anyone's guess, but I imagine he certainly felt her prana when she blew up the bracelet.

What Kariya should have done is hunt down Caster's master and slaughter him wholesale, earning Kariya that extra command seal. It's something vital for him far more than any of the others, being Berserker's master. But what he did do, is make sure that Rin got back safely to Aoi. Kariya's priorities will always be the safety of Aoi's daughters over himself. It was a small part of this episode, but a good one, since he's been largely ignored since the battle at the docks.

[Buffalobiian]

As mentioned, we saw Tokiomi's nicer sides, despite the fact that he still threw away one of his daughters, knowing what they might do to her. But this ultimately benefited Kariya more. He's lurking around keeping an eye from the gutters. How he knew that Rin was around is anyone's guess, but I imagine he certainly felt her prana when she blew up the bracelet.

You know, I was actually expecting Mr. I'm-in-control to save Rin. Totally expected him to plant some sort of alerting device into the Mana Compass. I was a little surprised that he didn't come, but it's all good in the end since it means Rin gets to hide this little blunder from him while still being able to tell him about how she saved her friends should they meet again.

If Rin's flashback in FSN (the one with her bidding her father goodbye while hugging a spellbook) is any indication, they WILL meet again.

[Archangel]

That felt fillerish

[Idealistic]

Yeah, this was a nice side-story episode. I actually thought it tied in really well to the main plot as Rin is a still a child and ran into Caster's master. Though I was assuming she would get caught and her father would come save her initiating a servant battle as well. Nontheless, still a cool story and like others have said, you get more insight on Rin.

With that aside..... Isn't Rin like 6 or something at this time? The close-up skirt shot I felt was really inappropriate. :confused:

[Buffalobiian]

With that aside..... Isn't Rin like 6 or something at this time? The close-up skirt shot I felt was really inappropriate. :confused:

The FSN game explicitly says that "All characters in this game are over 18 years of age", so that makes Rin 8 here. Not as inappropriate as you think. ;)


That felt fillerish

As in this filled your heart with warmth and fuwafuwa.. :)

[shinta|hikari]

It was very appropriate.

[Kraco]

Didn't they just want to show Rin has been a zettai ryouiki supporter since the beginning?

[Archangel]

As in this filled your heart with warmth and fuwafuwa.. :)
As in there was no plot development or change in the status quo.

[Belial]

Hope this was the worst episodes in an otherwise great series... can't believe there are actually people who liked it ... to each his own i guess

[shinta|hikari]

It's because we like Rin... a lot.

[Buffalobiian]

It's because we like Rin... a lot.

Talk about an understatement..

[shinta|hikari]

I was trying to be modest.

[Kraco]

I can certainly see, objectively speaking, how this episode would have even sucked for a casual watcher. It was meant solely for Rin fanboys (and -girls), no doubt of that. Of course my view is hopelessly biased being a Rin fan, but considering this is still just entertainment, I don't see anything particularly wrong about having an ep like this if they can afford it the total number of episodes wise. After all, for the considerable number of Rin fans, this was a fair.

[shinta|hikari]

I seriously fear for my health and sanity if they ever release a loli Arturia episode.

[David75]

I liked the ep as a potential father, it might also work that way. I somehow was able to understand Rin's father patience and fatherly love although I probably will never be a father. With that idea in mind, the marvel lied elsewhere, in the smiles she gets when she's able to perform her magic, or when she watches the gem horse.
Also, it is quite a contrast with the image she gace from her father in the next war. You could think she kept her tender moments to herself as her real gems, but pre-adult Rin seems to have anger against her Father. Probably for something he will (or won't) do in the eps to come. My guess being protecting her mother.

[bagandscalpel]

I seriously fear for my health and sanity if they ever release a loli Arturia episode.

So, it'd be Type Moon's adaptation of the first quarter of The Once and Future King, or The Sword in the Stone?

[KrayZ33]

Hope this was the worst episodes in an otherwise great series... can't believe there are actually people who liked it ... to each his own i guess

I found this episode alot more exciting than 9 (too bad caster wasn't at his hideout)
the problem is, everyone knew nothing serious/huge is going to happen and everyone knew that Rin would survive this. thanks to fate/stay night

[shinta|hikari]

That's true. Had we not known her fate (pun intended), it was a pretty suspenseful episode.

@Bag - *Imagination ablaze* Type moon needs to do a Sword in the Stone prequel, even if it is only a VN.

[Ryllharu]

It was meant solely for Rin fanboys (and -girls), no doubt of that. Of course my view is hopelessly biased being a Rin fan, but considering this is still just entertainment, I don't see anything particularly wrong about having an ep like this if they can afford it the total number of episodes wise. After all, for the considerable number of Rin fans, this was a fair.
As gotwoot's primary (only?) Sakura fan, I heavily approved of this episode.

It's just that some people are only in it for the fights, not any level of characterization. It's the difference between fans who think UBW is the be-all-end-all arc, and fans of all three arcs. It wasn't just chibi-Rin fanservice, it had good development for Tokiomi, who thus far, hadn't had much otherwise.

...and that pied piper shit was creepy.

[Buffalobiian]

Also, it is quite a contrast with the image she gace from her father in the next war. You could think she kept her tender moments to herself as her real gems, but pre-adult Rin seems to have anger against her Father. Probably for something he will (or won't) do in the eps to come. My guess being protecting her mother.

Or learning about Sakura's fate.


So, it'd be Type Moon's adaptation of the first quarter of The Once and Future King, or The Sword in the Stone?

aka the loli and Merlin?

[shinta|hikari]

I would prefer the loli and the sword.

I agree with Ryll. It wasn't an empty episode. It probably had more characterization than the previous one. We all knew Rider and his master were like that before that episode, but we never knew Tokiomi was such an understanding father, despite those blank eyes.

[Ryllharu]

Or learning about Sakura's fate.
Except Rin never knew what they did to Sakura after she entered the Matou household. She only felt bad that she never spoke to her (at school or wherever). She felt guilty that she too had abandoned her own sister, that she never went to rescue her from Shinji. Rin could never even guess at what Zouken did to Sakura, she's too pure-hearted.

(source: episode 18 of the the FSN anime)

[Buffalobiian]

I meant knowing why Sakura had to be given away. The opening episode gave me the impression that Rin was simply told that Sakura was a Matou now and no longer her sister. I would think they owe her a better explanation than that, and when that comes it would be evident that Tokiomi chose to be a Mage over a father.

[Ryllharu]

I wouldn't say that. He threw away Sakura, for sure, but he does give Rin undivided attention. Would he have been able to do the same for two daughters? Would one have developed resentment toward the other? (Though that happened anyway.)

He's a bastard, but presuming he didn't know exactly what Zouken intended for her, instead of two moderately well trained daughters, he gets to train one to the height of her abilities, and as far as he knows, the other is getting similar treatment. Then again, judging from Aoi's statements in the first episode...they probably do know.

I don't know if it is quite as simple as, "he chose to groom a successor instead of being a father." He was pretty fatherly to Rin in this episode. He was patient with her in a way he isn't to even Gilgamesh or Kirei.

(By the way, Sakura is much more powerful than Rin anyway. Tokiomi obviously threw away the wrong daughter if he was only after the best successor. The worms haven't consumed Sakura the way they did Kariya, and she's undoubtedly suffered as much as he has this past year. If that's not a testament to her potential, I don't know what is.)

[Buffalobiian]

I wouldn't say that. He threw away Sakura, for sure, but he does give Rin undivided attention. Would he have been able to do the same for two daughters? Would one have developed resentment toward the other? (Though that happened anyway.)

He's a bastard, but presuming he didn't know exactly what Zouken intended for her, instead of two moderately well trained daughters, he gets to train one to the height of her abilities, and as far as he knows, the other is getting similar treatment. Then again, judging from Aoi's statements in the first episode...they probably do know.

I don't know if it is quite as simple as, "he chose to groom a successor instead of being a father." He was pretty fatherly to Rin in this episode. He was patient with her in a way he isn't to even Gilgamesh or Kirei.

(By the way, Sakura is much more powerful than Rin anyway. Tokiomi obviously threw away the wrong daughter if he was only after the best successor. The worms haven't consumed Sakura the way they did Kariya, and she's undoubtedly suffered as much as he has this past year. If that's not a testament to her potential, I don't know what is.)

From what you said, I can't really tell if you understood me.

What I meant was that Rin will be upset that Tokiomi chose to be a mage instead of a father regarding his treatment of Sakura. Being a mage, he only needed one successor anyway and so gave up one of his daughters to preserve the relationship between magi as well as "benefiting" the magical world by keeping another lineage alive. If he chose the role of a father, there is no way in hell he'd give up a daughter even if it meant giving less resources to the other one.

I think Rin will firstly be upset by his ways.. and then learn to accept it (regardless of whether she's comfortable with it or not).

[Yukimura]

I'll throw another name in to the hat for the don't care much for Rin camp and state that this ep was far off the average set by all the preceding eps and I didn't much like it for that reason. I did like all the elements of it that exemplified what I liked about the previous episodes, but Rin being cute or going on adventures has no place in my perception of what makes this a show above others to watch. My favorite aspect of this series has been its focus almost entirely on adults with adult problems and adult personalities, the only exception being Waver's coming-of-age story track which has been quite minor overall. The insight into Tokiomi's character as a patient and caring father and was a nice addition and while initially surprising seemed quite consistent with his established traits as there's nothing elegant about being a brute to your child/heir. However, I would have preferred his character development had come in some way that involved a more serious situation revolving around the adults in the show facing off against each other in some way.

Chibi-Rin is certainly cute and all but as far as I'm concerned her only positive value to this particular narrative is as a catalyst for the adults to develop. We did get some of that in seeing Kariya demonstrate his loyalty to the Tokiomi daughters and I was quite grateful for that but I would have gladly taken Tokiomi's development as an element of him having to save a kidnapped or otherwise endangered Rin and flashing back to teaching her or something.

All gripes aside though I know fanboyism helps makes our little corner of the world go round so for that reason I'm glad they included this ep. Now tons of Rin fanboys who might have otherwise ignored the show for lack of thei Zettai Ryouki heart throb will definitely shell out at least $90 for whichever BD this ep comes out on and the great circle jerk of fanwanking and artistry that is the anime industry might just continue a little longer.

[bagandscalpel]

I wouldn't say that. He threw away Sakura, for sure, but he does give Rin undivided attention. Would he have been able to do the same for two daughters? Would one have developed resentment toward the other? (Though that happened anyway.)

Clearly, Tokiomi threw away Sakura because he knew her REAL father is Kariya, hence, returning her to the Matou household was his idea of charity; he's such a good person! Also explains why Kariya is so fixated on Sakura's happiness and why she even LOOKS more like a Matou than Tokiomi's child.

/bullshit

[Archangel]

Clearly, Tokiomi threw away Sakura because he knew her REAL father is Kariya, hence, returning her to the Matou household was his idea of charity; he's such a good person! Also explains why Kariya is so fixated on Sakura's happiness and why she even LOOKS more like a Matou than Tokiomi's child.

/bullshit

If only

I can't help but feel Kariya's inevitable pathetic end will be insanely rage worthy.

[Buffalobiian]

This episode kickstarted my motivation to continue with Heaven's Feel from where I left off. Revisiting the characters, Kotomine's attitude towards life is really contrasting. I didn't notice it that much when FZ started off because everybody was serious, and he was played by the same familiar deep voice.

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 11 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=267146)

[Lucifus]

Epicness - Unparalleled.

[Belial]

It's official, Rider is my favorite "servant" in a season with so many great ones

[Kraco]

Rider is indeed quite a man. And a real king, no doubt. His powers are nothing to laugh at, either. Despite the servants' superhuman powers in general, this also reminds of the simple fact that the self-confidence of a fighter matters greatly. Saber, her whole servant existence based on regret, can't really ever boast of pure self-confidence.

I'm starting to feel this show will reveal more of Saber's character than FSN (visual novel included).

The whole Assassin part in this episode felt so strange there had to be some reason behind it. I hope something less prosaic than simply to gauge Rider's powers.

[NeoCybercoin]

Iskander= Best Servant ever.

[David75]

Somehow after watching FSN, UBW and playing the FSN VN, I felt Gilgamesh and next war's archer noble phantasms were cheats.

In fact, it's only because I didn't know about that 4th war and Rider's noble phantasm. The norm set by the 5th war clearly is far below what we're experiencing in that 4th war. Awesome!

[Buffalobiian]

Iskandar's cool and all, but this episode lacked something that I had hope to see in him - tactics.

Alexandar the Great is best know for three things:

-Uniting a large territory
-Absorbing ideas and cultures from those he conquers
-His undefeated winning streak in battle and military aptitude

Then again.. it's a score of assassins vs over a thousand men - you don't really need to think much..

Too bad since I rather liked that female assassin's design too. The other thing that perhaps ticked me off from enjoying this episode to its max is the thought "geez, everyone and their mum has a Reality Marble.." going through my head.

Back to Assassin, we really need to find out more about their true potential. So far it's as if they're truly expendable. Either Kotomine really has no intention of preserving any combat prowess, the Assassins shown this episode are only a small fraction of their true number, or Assassin doesn't have a finite number of bodies and killing such bodies does not reduce his combat effectiveness in the long run.

[David75]

I was a little surprised female assassin did absolutely nothing to defend herself. Sure she had absolutely no ways of getting out of that alive, but in such dire situations you try to fight till the end... unless you're doing something else and are not really dying in the process or what you're doing is even more important than you dying without even fighting back.

[Buffalobiian]

I was a little surprised female assassin did absolutely nothing to defend herself. Sure she had absolutely no ways of getting out of that alive, but in such dire situations you try to fight till the end... unless you're doing something else and are not really dying in the process or what you're doing is even more important than you dying without even fighting back.

When you put it that way, it reminds me of Obi Wan vs Darth Vader.

edit: hmm, if not for the bloody decapitated body left in the desert, lol.

[Ryllharu]

I felt that Iskandar's Reality Marble was the dullest part of the episode. The dialogue between Kings was the most fulfilling segment of the episode, the combat serving only to show how shallow Iskandar is. Though he declared Saber not worthy of the title of king, his display is actually what made him lose.

I'll say up front that I agree more with Saber than I do with Iskandar. It is the duty of those who rule to serve their people. But Saber was indeed wrong in that a King's duty is only to serve their people. Their reward is as Gilgamesh implied...everything is theirs. But with that possession, also comes the responsibility to maintain it. For Gilgamesh, that means punishing any and all who would dare threaten that which is his, by thievery or by aspiration. I think that this discussion, and particularly the self-proclaimed ultimate king telling her that she wasn't entirely wrong, will help Saber grow into a stronger King (which from FSN, we know is actually possible for her due to the time loop).

Iskandar's desire to become human in this time is admirable. He wishes for a new world that he can conquer, a new challenge. He is not satisfied with resting on his past laurels the way Gilgamesh is, but on always seeking new comrades, new lands to make his own.

Gilgamesh acts as if everything is already his and will be for all time, but that argument has a flaw. Not everything existed when he ruled. The Grail certainly did not. It was created by the three main families that participate in the Wars, at least a couple millennia later.

What makes Iskandar lose that dialogue is that he is solely selfish. He does not think of others. Even Gilgamesh finds admirable qualities in others. Iskandar does not even allow his men to create their own legend, he demands that they serve him even in death. While that kind of loyalty is very commendable, a true King wouldn't bind down those who serve beneath them, simply as a means by which to maintain their position.

A true king would be able to stand on their own, like Gilgamesh or Arturia. Even if those beneath them left, their dominance would not waver. Well...Arturia's did, but her recognizing that failure in herself is what ultimately makes her stronger. Her desire for the Grail is to fix what she did wrong, which led more to suffering. The use of his Reality Marble shows that Iskandar cannot stand on his own.

So no, Iskandar is not the greatest of all time. His failings were plain to see from the contrast of Gilgamesh's quiet confidence and Saber's doubts. As it stands, Gilgamesh is indeed the most admirable. He has wisdom to do with his sickening levels of confidence. He didn't say as much as the others, but it was clear that he knew Saber's path made her stronger, because he knows of the burden she alone must endure, and that she is stronger for accepting it.

[Archangel]

Somehow after watching FSN, UBW and playing the FSN VN, I felt Gilgamesh and next war's archer noble phantasms were cheats.

In fact, it's only because I didn't know about that 4th war and Rider's noble phantasm. The norm set by the 5th war clearly is far below what we're experiencing in that 4th war. Awesome!

Rider's NB basically assure his dominance against any servants who simply rely on Anti-Unit Phantasms but it's nothing more than a flashy exhibit versus Saber's or Gil's Anti-Fortress attacks.

Emiya Archer is still pretty overpowered when you think about it, the only servants who ever really stood a chance against him were Saber and Berserker. This war's berserker seems like he would pose quite the challenge as well.

[Kraco]

I completely and utterly disagree with Ryll's post. And it's not because I'd be any Rider fan, as I'm not. Looking at real monarchy from our point of view is useless, it being nothing but academic history now, but back when it was in full power, monarchs certainly weren't operating on the basis of sacrificing themselves for their people. If anything it was like Iskandar said. In fact it's quite similar to our current economic system: You are free to exploit it as much as the law allows and get as rich as you can, and people should only look up to you and think: "If that person could pull it off and became a millionaire, I can as well!" The reality is and was of course different, but it doesn't make one side any more correct than the other. One thing is clear beyond doubt, though, just like Shirou taught Saber in the next war (and Iskandar tried to in this episode): Regret will produce nothing good and trying to change the past will produce even less. Neither are also fitting for a king.

Lastly, saying even Gilgamesh is better than Iskandar is just... Madness. Gilgamesh sees the good qualities in people because he considers those people his possessions and naturally you'd like to think your possessions are worth something. Nothing about Iskandar has given me the impression he would pettily hold people down. He thinks everybody should recognize him as the king - or, I reckon, challenge him for the title. If they do hold him as the king, he will support them in turn and they will be merry together. He even tries to encourage and listen to his worthless, cowardly master.

[Ryllharu]

Lastly, saying even Gilgamesh is better than Iskandar is just... Madness. Gilgamesh sees the good qualities in people because he considers those people his possessions and naturally you'd like to think your possessions are worth something.
Gilgamesh isn't crazy...yet. He's fairly pragmatic in F/Z. At the end of the episode, his statements imply that he knew Saber wasn't his...yet. Or more accurately, he didn't want her...yet. He found her stance to shoulder that much weight and responsibility as admirable, and stated that if she improved herself more, she might be worthy of his love.

The important part was that he did not disagree with her. He goes it alone, and liked that Saber was chivalrous enough to desire the burdens she holds. Gilgamesh recognized that you have to take the bad as well as the good if you want to possess it all, or to rule over your land. Iskandar doesn't.

[Buffalobiian]

One thing in legends to note too is that Iskandar was more of a warrior/leader than a king. He expanded his territories, but left ruling them to his generals pretty much. That tells you the scope of Kingship that he exercised, or at least liked to exercise.

I do not agree that Iskandar ties down his men. He allows them to follow him.

But overall I'm fairly much in agreement with Ryll. Those who have watched Gurren Lagann can think of the comparison between which character was more fit to be a "ruler", and which one was more fit to be a leader/warrior/inspirer.


15@Buffalobiian: I'm disappointed that so far he's shown himself to be less of a Lelouch and more of a Naruto
15@Buffalobiian: despite reading maps at the beginning

edit: just remembered.. Rider offered Assassin to join the dialogue, but only offered them the shitty stuff he found in Fuyuki. xD

[Kraco]

Perhaps it's because of being familiar with Gilgamesh from FSN already, but I can't trust anything he says, even though he's on some basic level above being a petty liar. But his last words to Saber simply made me think he thought Saber's internal struggles are fascinating to one such as Gilgamesh who has probably never doubted himself. In other words, he regards Saber a more interesting object to possess because she's not cut from the same tree. Iskandar is much closer to Gilgamesh and must be more boring consequently.

If you are thinking who's the best ruler, isn't Arturia the worst ruler of them all? Not only, in her own opinion, did she fail but she's also full of regret indicating she thinks she didn't do her best, despite her haughty words now. Such a windbag.

[shinta|hikari]

I like Gil far more than I like Rider. His tirade about being a King and him calling Arturia a little girl was absurd. He should be wise enough to know that there are many ways to take up that role.

I very much prefer Saber's take on the position. It is unfortunate she was easily shaken, probably because of her inexperience. We should not forget that Saber does not look young. She is young.

Both Arturia and Iskandar showed their faults in the discussion, while Gil brought fine wine. Yes, he wins.

@Kraco - Saber did her best and knows she did. She is regretting that someone else could have done better, had she not taken up the role (FSN game and anime). To have someone else rule in fact, is her wish. You should not forget how Arturia became king (pulls sword = instant king) while Iskandar was born and raised a conqueror.

[David75]

Arturia did pull the sword when Merlin was strongly warning her...
And yes, she looks 14, the age she had when she pulleth the sword...

Alexander died age 33, which is not a lot considering the impact he had on his time.

[Kraco]

@Kraco - Saber did her best and knows she did. She is regretting that someone else could have done better, had she not taken up the role (FSN game and anime). To have someone else rule in fact, is her wish. You should not forget how Arturia became king (pulls sword = instant king) while Iskandar was born and raised a conqueror.

That makes her an even lousier king. And that's what they were talking about. If pulling a sword makes you an instant king, you better think for a moment before pulling the sword or accept responsibility like a real king, not like a wishful girl who tries to escape the reality and responsibility into long dreams.

[shinta|hikari]

I did not mean that someone else could have actually done better. I meant that she thinks that way. If someone with such kindness and honor failed, who else could have done better? And before anyone brings up Iskandar, his kingdom crumbled pretty hard too.

She is not trying to escape responsibility, but change destiny. I think that is a larger burden and responsibility than you might think.

[ForteCross]

@someone saying alexander not accepting the bad, i recall alexander saying that you must be the bad and the good to rule...

also neither saber nor rider know what it is to lead, they both are way too extremist but i would say that alexander has a better point, not only he was more successfully than saber. you cannot lead to serve... saber could have been the best knight, the right hand of a king, serving him so he can be a better king while alexander was a tyrant and acknowledge that.

we are not talking about diplomacy here, its not like someone is selected to serve the country.

the people should serve the king, and the king should work to make his country bigger, stronger thus providing the people defense, laws, and more space so his country grows... a king who wants only to serve the people would not work, while a tyrant might work for some time, but the best king would be the one who combines both ideals

[Splash!]

I don't really agree with Rider's views, but his criticism of Saber's is pretty spot on. Initially, he is pissed that she would go so far as to undo her mark on history because she thinks things would have turned out better. She is basically saying that if you try and fail, it is better to have not tried at all. She is also being a little egotistical by implying that the unraveling of her country's fate was a direct consequence of the choices she made and nothing else.

She later goes on to define a king by the set of principles they should follow and the responsibilities they must shoulder. It is more about what they must do than who they are. To this, Rider points out that this is no way to live. He would rather take every aspect of human personality to the extreme than to deny his human nature by trying to live up to a completely unattainable ideology and then punishing oneself for failing to do so.

Again, not saying that Rider is completely right, since he would magnify every human trait equally (both good and evil). But unlike Saber, he would take the road that would allow him to accomplish more with his life. Saber would rather be constantly second guessing herself after every decision and become a victim to her circumstances. And I think history would validate this. Although both Saber and Rider failed as leaders, Rider accomplished more.

[animus]

They should all just learn from Waver-kun on how to be a real monarch.

[Buffalobiian]

Iskandar = Big Bandit Brother
Saber = Guardian/Watchdog
Gilgamesh = ??????

The biggest part of Iskandar's speech was that Saber did not lead, that she didn't live a life that others wanted.. that others could relate to.. and thereby became separated from her own people.

Her people look to her for salvation/protection when required, but they do not look to her for inspiration.

I wonder what Rider's Charisma stat is..

[Archangel]

Iskandar = Big Bandit Brother
Saber = Guardian/Watchdog
Gilgamesh = ??????

The biggest part of Iskandar's speech was that Saber did not lead, that she didn't live a life that others wanted.. that others could relate to.. and thereby became separated from her own people.

Her people look to her for salvation/protection when required, but they do not look to her for inspiration.

I wonder what Rider's Charisma stat is..

Duh? Charisma: A :D

For the record, Saber has B.

[Buffalobiian]

Duh? Charisma: A :D

For the record, Saber has B.

Well I wasn't sure. Also couldn't remember if Gil was A or A+ (and at the same time, whether Saber was B vs B+)

[fireheart]

I like Gil far more than I like Rider. His tirade about being a King and him calling Arturia a little girl was absurd. He should be wise enough to know that there are many ways to take up that role.

Except Gil laughed at her views of how a King should be and was the first one to call her a little girl. The only difference is that Gil didn't call her a little girl more than once and didn't give her a speech like Rider did but considering his pride etc he's probably agrees more with Rider than with Saber. Of course there are the words he left her at the end and I don't think he's lying when he said it, though it seemed more that he wanted to test her worth or like he said before judge those who are after his treasures.

All in all I can't say Rider is wrong about Saber she is indeed a girl that dreams of an ideal. While those ideals are great and if more leaders were like that the world would probably be a better place. But if what Rider said is true that she never led her people and only saved them then I have to agree that she's not worthy of being a King. If she actually saved them and led her people and thus connecting with them then I would have said she's the far superior King compared to the others, to bad she didn't but then again if she did then she probably wouldn't be in this war and that scene where she remembers the past probably wouldn't have happened.


I did not mean that someone else could have actually done better. I meant that she thinks that way. If someone with such kindness and honor failed, who else could have done better?

She is not trying to escape responsibility, but change destiny. I think that is a larger burden and responsibility than you might think.

I can't really say if she was kind, at least not the kind that I think of when I hear that word. If what the knight told her that she doesn't understand the people is true then in my opinion she isn't truly kind because to really be kind you need empathy and that statement implies that she lacking in that area. This is just my opinion but whenever I help someone without feeling any kind of empathy towards them then it's just an action from my side to uphold my ideals of how people should be, it's not kindness from my side what so ever, this actually happens a lot and I recognize it as such it's merely my views of how people should act that dictate that action. I don't find it wrong but I'll never call it real kindness unless there's empathy/feelings behind it. Honor on the other hand she got plenty of.

So in a way Saber is right since she probably would have fit the role of a knight far better and left the role of a King to someone else.


And how about that I was wrong Rider actually does want the Grail.

[Kraco]

I can't really say if she was kind, at least not the kind that I think of when I hear that word. If what the knight told her that she doesn't understand the people is true then in my opinion she isn't truly kind because to really be kind you need empathy and that statement implies that she lacking in that area.

From a ruler's point of view there's far more to understanding people than just kindness. She's supposed to be a king, not some clergy sister looking after the sick and dying. What Rider said is also understanding people: That the masses need someone to look up to so that they would themselves try to reach higher (by themselves, not by accepting hand-outs, like is Saber's version of a good ruler). A ruler must understand people to be able to rule them efficiently. It's as much about divide and rule as seeing their basic needs are met to avoid rebellions.

We live in democracies but only a hopeless fool would think our leaders give a shit about our happiness, yet they understand people so well that always before the elections they can say and do the right things to get reelected.

[fireheart]

I agree with what you said kraco though I only intended for it to reflect my view on what kindness means, if you can't understand people then you can't feel for them either resulting in a lack of empathy and a person who lacks that is in my view unable to truly be kind. Which is why I have problems viewing Saber as kind. Whether a ruler has that or not is a different matter completely, still her ideals aren't bad.

[Kraco]

I'm sure she's kind on a personal level and following her own concept of kindness. Yet quite often one person's kindness is not viewed as such by great many others. So, if she doesn't understand people like you said, then she can't judge whether her kindness is needed or even welcome. Which is probably the case based on everything we have seen.

[Buffalobiian]

Throwing this in here, at the end of the FSN anime, Saber mentions that her country abandoned her, while Gil abandoned his own country.

As for kindness, I also vaguely remember some of her flashbacks from Saber herself saying that she had to lock away her kindness as a king - that a king had to rule and make decisions that the others could not... or something to that effect.

[Kraco]

As for kindness, I also vaguely remember some of her flashbacks from Saber herself saying that she had to lock away her kindness as a king - that a king had to rule and make decisions that the others could not... or something to that effect.

Isn't that the complete opposite to what she was saying in this episode? Or perhaps she's one of those people who preaches one way, but is then the first to do the opposite... That does sound more like a real king.

Although wasn't she talking more about romantic feelings and such? Granted, I don't really remember that much at all of Saber's details.

[Buffalobiian]

Isn't that the complete opposite to what she was saying in this episode?

Hmm.. well I could be wrong since as you point out it does seem to contradict.

Then again.. perhaps not.

From this episode, we got:

-Saber may not understand her people
-Saber does not do what her people require most
-Saber believes in her own idea of what a king should be

If my recollection has any hint of truth, then it's possible that Saber made decisions that she thought the people wanted, whereas they didn't actually want to in the first place.

Or.. did I misunderstand your post entirely?

[Kraco]

I was mainly hinting she might have been like most people are: Having lofty ideals but then in practice doing someting quite else. If she here was preaching her ideals to Rider and Archer, but in FSN was confessing how things really were. Although shutting down her own emotions to be able to serve her people makes perfect sense: After all, Rider is the example of what you have if you aren't a saint and do what your own feelings tell you to do. Serving the people would require switching all natural selfishness off. However, if a monarch isn't selfish, they're soon going to be an ex-monarch, because there surely are lots of capable - and selfish - people waiting for an opportunity to change the leadership. That could result in a possible power struggle (or civil war later in history when nation states exist), which is the single greatest disservice a ruler can grant to their subjects. And exactly what Saber by all accounts achieved.

What ordinary citizens in fact desire are stability and predictability granting opportunities in a relatively safe environment. Nothing more. Such a thing wouldn't of course satisfy Iskandar either, making him little better.

[Alhuin]

UTW - Episode 12 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=269415)

[Kraco]

Gilgamesh really is getting major fleshing in this show, compared to FSN (game included). He was left pretty superficial in FSN, despite being a major villain. Although he's so pure and simple that even a superficial observation hits very close to the mark. Compared to Saber he certainly acts more like a king. I suppose his little conversations with Kirei are now ending with Tokiomi finally deciding to take action (and thus relieving Gil from his boredom) and Gilgamesh himself probably thinking he did all he could to lay the foundation for Kirei's betrayal. In any case Gilgamesh is made to look far more intelligent in this show than FSN.

It was nice to see the old Emiya mansion. I bet Shirou had no idea even Ilya's mom lived there for a short while. The sudden appearance of the magic circle that summoned Saber in the next war was given a proper explanation here, which might be the most important detail of that whole part of the episode.

[Ryllharu]

The sudden appearance of the magic circle that summoned Saber in the next war was given a proper explanation here, which might be the most important detail of that whole part of the episode.This is what I came here to say. It finally makes sense that a circle would just randomly appear for Saber to be summoned through. It was always there. Saber has both a connection to the circle (since I suppose Saber is actually doing inscribing it), the place, and with Iris powering/utilizing it, it should have considerable strength to last the ten years it takes for Shirou to take advantage of it.

The Gil/Kirei conversations are interesting though. We can see that Gilgamesh isn't twisting Kirei into the person he became, he is merely helping Kirei past the barriers he placed upon himself. Kirei couldn't find joy because his source of joy has always been the suffering of others, he simply denied them because he was trying to be a good member of the Church. I guess it wasn't the Grail that corrupted him as he stated in FSN. It was this war that made him finally realize the truth. The Grail is just his means to achieve that level of "entertainment."

Those are Kariya's command seals, no? Are we meant to think that Tokiomi killed him?

[Archangel]

Interesting... The Grail really does have a thing for Kirei doesn't it? Giving him command seals even without any of the other masters having lost theirs.

[David75]

Maybe you want to have your command spells ready when needed?
Victorinox swiss army knife maker has a solution for you!
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I loled :D

[Buffalobiian]

Those are Kariya's command seals, no? Are we meant to think that Tokiomi killed him?

Weren't they just Kirei's command spells that got taken when his servant died? The grail couldn't find anyone more suitable and went "here.. have another go".

[Ryllharu]

Weren't they just Kirei's command spells that got taken when his servant died? The grail couldn't find anyone more suitable and went "here.. have another go".
Yeah, they're Kirei's again, but I guess I got them confused with Caster's master's seals, which I got confused thinking Kariya had. They're definitely not Kariya's.

But then their discussion doesn't really make sense. Isn't it over if the Servant died? Another Servant isn't going to get summoned, the Wars would never reach an end. This was the rule we learned from FSN, why a Master would run to the Church. Kirei and Archer discussed killing Masters as a strategy to make sure they wouldn't take over when the Grail redistributes seals from a different Master's death.

So why would Kirei get his own back? He lacks a Servant, and if he stole another servant, as he did in the 5th War, he would get their Master's command seals, being the next most suitable candidate.

[David75]

His father has spare command spells. Maybe the grail could use the power left in some of them. Meaning someone has to kill Kirei's father to prevent him from giving other command spells.
But that wasn't hinting that ep, so it's strange indeed. Unless Gilgamesh did talk to Kirei's father beforehand and ask him to do that....

[Archangel]

His father has spare command spells. Maybe the grail could use the power left in some of them. Meaning someone has to kill Kirei's father to prevent him from giving other command spells.
But that wasn't hinting that ep, so it's strange indeed. Unless Gilgamesh did talk to Kirei's father beforehand and ask him to do that....
Or maybe SOMETHING (that shall remain nameless and clouded in mystery) is using the power within the grail to ascertain and then favor its own master.

[bagandscalpel]

Kiritsugu really should get out the warranty for that Einzbern Moe Sex Robot™; thing's defects are starting to show.

[NeoCybercoin]

It's okay, he already made a new one but due to legal reasons he can't use it yet until it matures.

[Idealistic]

Was looking forward to tonight's episode..... only to remember that the series is now on break! :(

[Marik]

Was looking forward to tonight's episode..... only to remember that the series is now on break! :(

Episode 13 was released today. Second half starts with episode 14 in April.

[Marik]

[UTW] Fate Zero - 13 - 720p: Torrent (http://tracker.minglong.org/torrents/[UTW]_Fate_Zero_-_13_[h264-720p][9538170C].mkv.torrent) | DDL1 (http://www.fileserve.com/file/2pJvx2P) | DDL2 (http://www.filesonic.com/file/aTwP6Lo)

[Yukimura]

That's some BS, they finally gear up for some action after a few eps of fairly heavy with dialogue and low on action and then they cut away for 3 months. And we still don't know how or why Kirei got his Command Spells back...

[Buffalobiian]

That's some BS, they finally gear up for some action after a few eps of fairly heavy with dialogue and low on action and then they cut away for 3 months. And we still don't know how or why Kirei got his Command Spells back...

Kirei got his spell back because the Grail chose him. The grail was obliged to take it away since he lost his servant. After considering who it should give to command spell to, it decided that there was no better person than Kirei.

But I agree that it was quite a meh build-up episode. We already know about Rider and his ambitions - and no one cares about Waver or the nutcase duo.

[Kraco]

Yeah, even I am forced to admit much of this episode was wasted. Almost like they were merely playing time only to make a cliffhanger ending before the long pause.

If they couldn't put any real and meaningful action in, at least they should have shown us Rin and Sakura instead of emo Waver's inferiority complex...

[NeoCybercoin]

Fuck! Why do we have to wait until April....

[ForteCross]

atleast we are going to get an epic battle the moment the next season starts, we can even expect berserker to show up to get another command spell.

we can even hope for another double episode to make this battle more entertaining

[Archangel]

Waver went full tsun this week and Alexander proves to be bro material once again, Fate/Zero is truly superior to the sequel in how it makes me root for the whole cast in some way and not just the protagonist.

I'm fine with the break, to expect 24 straight episodes with this kind of quality isn't realistic. Hell, if anyone had asked me a few months ago i'd have told them that 12 episodes of this magnitude was a fool's dream but ufotable proved me wrong.

[KrayZ33]

to be honest, I found this cliffhanger to be extremely good...
makes me want to watch the second season for a reason other than a unresolved love-story

[Buffalobiian]

The cliffhanger has no problems.

It's the final stretch up the cliff that pissed me off.

[Archangel]

makes me want to watch the second season for a reason other than a unresolved love-story
Between Rider and Waver? :p

[David75]

It's true that the ep wasn't as epic as some others were. But I liked it.
I liked the Caster/Ryunosuke development. Not my way of seeing things, but in their twisted mind, all falls in place.

Regarding Waver/Alexander, it was important to give some spine to Waver. He proved useful to find Caster's hideout and now we know he didn't get his servant out of sheer luck. He has the will to fight and even die, at least he thinks so.
And telling to the face of Alexander that having such a strong hero was spoiling his fun, was a nice touch.

[KrayZ33]

It's the final stretch up the cliff that pissed me off.

the ep was interesting and fun to watch
don't know what you are talking about


Between Rider and Waver?

between male lead and female lead of anime XY (XY = 95% of all animes)

its more fun if the first season ends with a "OH MY GAWD, it's going to consume the whole town,rally up everyone for the big clash to come"
and not with a "baka, ecchi! hyaaaaa! *pillow in face*"

[Xelbair]

the ep was interesting and fun to watch
don't know what you are talking about


between male lead and female lead of anime XY (XY = 95% of all animes)

its more fun if the first season ends with a "OH MY GAWD, it's going to consume the whole town,rally up everyone for the big clash to come"
and not with a "baka, ecchi! hyaaaaa! *pillow in face*"
Am i the only one who read that in Rie's voice in his head?

[Archangel]

Am i the only one who read that in Rie's voice in his head?
Aye sir!

[Marik]

BD Batch

DOWNLOAD 1080p: [UTW] Fate Zero – 01-13 + Specials [h264-1080p FLAC] (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=302087) [DDL (http://depositfiles.com/folders/GQ9WIVX3Y)]
[B]DOWNLOAD 720p: [UTW] Fate Zero – 01-13 + Specials [BD][h264-720p AC3] (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=302088) [DDL (http://depositfiles.com/folders/KLWQ3ZKJB)]

[Buffalobiian]

The transition of the meeting made a lot more sense with this uncut version. Without the added parts, the original run made Saber out to be too much on the touchy side, Gilgamesh being unusually silent and Iskandar being rather abrupt in ending the meeting without further words from Saber.

On the other hand, in the new version Gilgamesh was instead unusually friendly with Iskandar to an extent. The biggest message was clearing up that while Gilgamesh may be considered "wise", it seems only to apply to his pursuit of pleasure. He doesn't give a shit about serving his people or protecting them - and certainly doesn't side with Saber's ideals in any way.

This makes him less "deep" of a character, but it definitely makes him a more consistent one.

[shinta|hikari]

Gilgamesh does not serve his people, but he does care for them. He even explicitly stated that (only) his subjects and people are worthy of his compassion, so he understands and bears that responsibility.

I didn't think he sided with Saber's ideals in the first version. What I did think was that he liked how Saber struggled with fate, and encouraged her to continue that path.

[Archangel]

Lol... how can this be so good? It's insane.

[David75]

Lol... how can this be so good? It's insane.

High quality visuals for anime, good scenario and character types/development.

Fate Zero is nice indeed.

Gil really was low on mana in Stay/Night compared to Zero.

[Ryllharu]

Even with me knowing everything that Zouken did to Sakura from the moment he obtained her...I find it difficult to deny Tokiomi's logic. He may not have fully realized what treatment she went through (or certainly he comes off callous for not being caring about what methods Matou's magics entail), but he equally didn't want to condemn his younger daughter to a life of mediocrity or worse, the inherent danger for an untrained magus of Sakura's potential. Ironically, the latter is exactly the fate she suffered.

As much as I want to, I can't really condemn Tokiomi for what he did to Sakura.

Gilgamesh UFO...kinda lame.

I don't really care for the new OP (though I usually like kalafina), but the ED is really good.

[Archangel]

Oh i can completely and absolutely condemn his logic. He sent his daughter away from his family to be tortured, even if he was unaware of the details of her training that just makes him that much more irresponsible.

That said, i do see where he's coming from with this.

[Idealistic]

Hello? Why no one update?!!?!? !!!!!

Fate Zero 14 by UTW. (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=302816)

[Buffalobiian]

Hello? Why no one update?!!?!? !!!!!

Aye. Personally I see it as rude to forum etiquettes of sorts.


As much as I want to, I can't really condemn Tokiomi for what he did to Sakura.

Oh i can completely and absolutely condemn his logic. He sent his daughter away from his family to be tortured, even if he was unaware of the details of her training that just makes him that much more irresponsible.

That said, i do see where he's coming from with this.

Tokiomi is a mage through and through. He doesn't see his daughters as people he must care for, but magi that he must raise. Everyone in his mind is pretty much evaluated on their worth as a mage, so he sees it as a disservice to waste Sakura's potential.

He likely doesn't know what methods Matou uses, but if it helps them become better mages, he sees no reason to care. It's like the mentality many Asian parents have when they raise their kids with all these cram schools and extracurricular music/arts lessons to "raise their worth"/"fulfil their potential", but taken to the extreme.

Tokiomi mentioned humanity, but he doesn't see "people".


Gilgamesh UFO...kinda lame.

Yeah.. from a believability standpoint, you have to wonder at how all their nations got wiped out and replaced with our lowly science..



I don't really care for the new OP (though I usually like kalafina), but the ED is really good.

I'm quite the opposite actually. Musically, I liked the OP more than the ED though neither of which are as grand and catchy as the ones from the previous episodes. The ED naturally tells more of a story, but both of them make me very sad about Iri's life and ultimate fate. :(

[fireheart]

I wonder if the talk about monster movies and the fact that one of the pilots name was Kobayashi is some kind of reference to Godzilla (http://godzilla.wikia.com/wiki/Godzilla_Raids_Again), though probably not.

[NeoCybercoin]

Ahhh Fate/Zero I've missed you. Non-stop quality and action.

[Belial]

Worth the wait, good to see they kept the quality both visually and story wise

[KrayZ33]

I wonder when Saber is going to show her skills, she is probably the weakest Servant alive atm.. it looks like it at least.

nothing compared to the hype she got from the stay-night series

[NeoCybercoin]

Soon she will whip out her Excalibur like she said she did in Fate/Stay Night.

[Kraco]

I wonder when Saber is going to show her skills, she is probably the weakest Servant alive atm.. it looks like it at least.

nothing compared to the hype she got from the stay-night series

She got a master who is only used to shady assassinations, bombings, and other underhand deeds not really suited for a knight. Add to that the curse she's currently under, and her weakness is all explained. Rin in UBW was the best master for Saber: Full of mana, not avoiding fights, and seeking honourable ends and justice.

I have to say Gilgamesh's UFO vs Berserk's hijacked fighter was the weakest part of this episode. Whatever happened to the pilot anyway?

[Archangel]

She got a master who is only used to shady assassinations, bombings, and other underhand deeds not really suited for a knight. Add to that the curse she's currently under, and her weakness is all explained. Rin in UBW was the best master for Saber: Full of mana, not avoiding fights, and seeking honourable ends and justice.

I have to say Gilgamesh's UFO vs Berserk's hijacked fighter was the weakest part of this episode. Whatever happened to the pilot anyway?
Berserker ate him.

And you have to be mad, Gilgamesh just sitting there not giving a fuck was glorious.

[KrayZ33]

She got a master who is only used to shady assassinations, bombings, and other underhand deeds not really suited for a knight. Add to that the curse she's currently under, and her weakness is all explained. Rin in UBW was the best master for Saber: Full of mana, not avoiding fights, and seeking honourable ends and justice.

doesn't saber get her mana from Irisviel?
that aside, there wasn't a single fight which was not "honourable", that excuse just won't work
and yes she suffers from a curse, but she got it because she failed hard the first time she went into battle.



I have to say Gilgamesh's UFO vs Berserk's hijacked fighter was the weakest part of this episode. Whatever happened to the pilot anyway?

ya, berserker riding the plane reminded me of one of those "gundam carriers" shown in Unicorn for example. the same goes for Gilgamesh who was sitting on his throne just fine when his UFO made all kinds of maneuvers

[Ryllharu]

doesn't saber get her mana from Irisviel?
that aside, there wasn't a single fight which was not "honourable", that excuse just won't work
and yes she suffers from a curse, but she got it because she failed hard the first time she went into battle.
Irisviel provides Saber no mana at all. Irisviel told Saber before they fought Lancer that all she would be able to do is use healing spells on Saber. It's not like the proxy where Shinji took Rider from Sakura, but was feeding her no mana (so they used alternate means to give her power, Blood Fort at the school). Saber still pulls power from Kiritsugu. Irisviel has no command seals in her possession, in contrast to those Shinji had in the book after he forced Sakura to give them to him.

Saber "failed hard" because she is too noble and honorable. She underestimated Lancer's capacity for guile, and expected him to act as a knight. She's too trusting, and he distracted her, so she forgot about his second spear. Saber only expects clean fights. She's learned since then, having tactically lost to Lancer, and all her encounters with Caster.

[KrayZ33]

Saber "failed hard" because she is too noble and honorable. She underestimated Lancer's capacity for guile, and expected him to act as a knight.

she does the same thing with her sword.

[Kraco]

that aside, there wasn't a single fight which was not "honourable", that excuse just won't work


I suppose that depends on how you define honourable. Bombing the hotel or in this episode sniping Caster's psycho master aren't necessarily the kind of fighting Saber would be used to (although I'm sure she won't be complaining about Ryuunosuke's fate...). Even Kiritsugu's run and shoot from afar fight against Archibald might be distasteful to Saber. I haven't rewatched the first season, but I do seem to recall Saber commented once or twice Kiritsugu's style as a master isn't optimal for her.

Still, I'm not going to deny that objectively speaking she has been underperforming. I probably said myself as much somewhere earlier in this thread...

[Ryllharu]

she does the same thing with her sword.
True, but for completely different reasons. Saber uses wind around her sword in order to preserve the secret of her identity, something that most, but not all Servants (Rider), are allowed to do as part of the rules. Saber's blade gives away her identity in an instant, as does using her particular Noble Phantasm (but using those often gives away the Servant's identity). Part of the reason she is so reluctant to use her Noble Phantasm (in addition to the massive mana drain).

It would be unfair to her Master if Saber revealed her identity just by appearing in the first place. Other Servants are given similar considerations. 5th War Caster with her hood and robes (concealing her cutely pointed ears), 5th War Rider with her eyes, 4th War Berserker keeping his helmet on at all times, etc.

edit: Lancer even called her out on it in episode 4, but accepted the reasoning, and proceeded with his little ruse. He turned it around on her, provoking her by insulting her honor.

[Archangel]

Lol, it's not like Rider wasn't allowed to hide his identity. He just didn't want to.

As for your other cases, i'm pretty sure the servants themselves prepared arrangements to hide their identities, it wasn't anything that was given to them.

Saber's NP is a trade off, like it was mentioned in fsn before the more famous a spirit and his NP is the more powerful it is but it is also more easily identifiable.

[Ryllharu]

Saber's wind is one her of NPs, so is 5th War Rider's blindfold (because her eyes are not a NP).

Iksander is a rare case, because that's just how he is. Both Saber and Lancer were shocked when he revealed it.

[Archangel]

Oh yeah... Breaker Gorgon. I just googled it, it explains a lot.

And i never said Saber's wind wasn't a NP, what i'm saying is that due to her fame for her to use her main weapon is to cleanly reveal her real identity to pretty much anyone. Even Shirou recognized it at first glance.

[Ryllharu]

Agreed. The tactical side benefit of confusing her opponent through the uncertainly length of her sword is a side effect, not the real purpose. The true purpose is to conceal her identity through her undeniably famous weapon.

[fireheart]

It's not like the proxy where Shinji took Rider from Sakura, but was feeding her no mana (so they used alternate means to give her power, Blood Fort at the school). Saber still pulls power from Kiritsugu. Irisviel has no command seals in her possession, in contrast to those Shinji had in the book after he forced Sakura to give them to him.

Wait... what, when, where did this happen?

[Archangel]

That's partly a spoiler from Heaven's Feel, you should delete it.

[Ryllharu]

No it isn't, not any longer. It's blatantly obvious. Shinji has the book with seals in it in FSN. They show it all throughout Fate/Stay Night (anime) until Rider is killed on the rooftop by Saber.

We know thanks to F/Z that Shinji has no magic circuits and that Sakura is the Matou's magus. This war ends with Kiritsugu vs Kirei. We know Kariya loses by all the dialogue at the end of FSN between Saber, Gilgamesh, Shirou and Kirei. Who the hell else summons a Servant in that household?! That leaves Sakura. Zouken wouldn't do it himself, that's why he's using Kariya now.

Put two and two together. Use your brains once in a while.

edit:
Or if you want another source, watch the episode of Carnival Phantasm. They spell it out there too.

[Archangel]

I can't help but wonder if you'd be quite so deductive if you had to figure out this stuff yourself as opposed to having it fed to you during the HF gameplay.

I'm just sayin, it's not like we can't have healthy discussion without mentioning that sort of material.

[Ryllharu]

Seriously, the first 20 minutes of F/Z gives out half the major details of The Story Arc that shall not be Mentioned.

- Sakura is Rin's Sister
- Sakura is just as strong as Rin, but is second born
- Sakura is infested with Zouken's worms
- Shinji is useless

[Archangel]

How about we work on a "Better safe than sorry" basis here?

[David75]

Just in case someone is interrested:
[Commie] Fate ⁄ Zero - 15 [4265B333] .mkv (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=304906)
Magnet (magnet:?xt=urn:btih:HZJOLE2AQBSKPMAAVNATXRJOHJSLF TLP)

[Archangel]

So based on the preview this Saber can still fight even after firing Excalibur. Her line as she dodged Berserker seems to indicate she can't shoot it in quick succession though.

Lancers have the worst fucking luck, seriously.

[Buffalobiian]

So based on the preview this Saber can still fight even after firing Excalibur. Her line as she dodged Berserker seems to indicate she can't shoot it in quick succession though.

She doesn't need to use Excalibur in quick succession at this point. Archer and Rider seem to be pulling out. I have no idea how Berserker's holding up with his master like that, which leaves Lancer and Saber.

Saber's healed now and Lancer's down to his one lance that negates magic. We're back to the same situation that we were in during the battle at the container dock before Lancer retrieved his second spear, if we're to assume their energy states are comparable.

Saber's used a ton of mana for Excalibur and also exerted herself fighting those tentacles, but so far Lancer hasn't really shown that he even uses mana in the first place.

wtf took down Gil? Purple smoke?

[Ryllharu]

wtf took down Gil? Purple smoke?I figured it was corrupted chaff or some other countermeasure from the jet. They're both going very fast, and all the glittering chunks of metal blew up Gilgamesh's Stargate throne-jet.

Either that or Berserker vented jet fuel and ignited it...but that shouldn't work. JP-8 doesn't burn like that.

[Kraco]

A pretty episode. Excalibur sure got some visual effects boost compared to the old series. Gilgamesh's obsession with Saber we later saw in FSN is growing nicely.

Somehow I can't help but feel that poor Tokiomi is the one the most out of everything in this show. He thinks he knows the most, likely, but in reality Kirei is working behind his back following whatever ambiguous goals he has, his own servant couldn't care less, and he wasn't even interacting with the others in this cooperation battle. Kariya is of course another matter, but he's pretty much as berserk as his servant, so he's living in his own world of madness. Well, now that Caster is gone, things should go back to normal. I hope we see something smart from Tokiomi.


I figured it was corrupted chaff or some other countermeasure from the jet.

That was my first thought as well. It would make the most sense, since it used to be a fighter jet.

[Archangel]

Saber's used a ton of mana for Excalibur and also exerted herself fighting those tentacles, but so far Lancer hasn't really shown that he even uses mana in the first place.

wtf took down Gil? Purple smoke?
All Servants use mana, some more than others.

Looked like a cluster bomb to me.

[Buffalobiian]

All Servants use mana, some more than others.



I meant mana for special attacks. I don't believe that regular thrusts and swings use mana, but I do think that appearing in a corporeal form taxes their master.

Never mind. Just remembered Saber being unable to run from Ilya's castle in FSN and requiring sustenance from Shirou.

edit: hmm.. but she was constantly in her corporeal form.. maybe I wasn't off the mark after all.

[Archangel]

They need mana simply to exist, remember how Caster was at death's door before she met "what's his face"?

[Ryllharu]

Isn't Saber a special case? She can't go incorporeal because she's not dead [source: FSN fuck off whiners]

It's like a trickling drain on a master just to participate, but like Arch said, some Servants use a lot more mana than others when performing attacks. Which is why all Servants have the ability to consume mana from other sources to supplement their strength. Some outright murder Fuyuki citizens the simple way (4th War Caster, Gilgamesh), some have special methods that don't necessarily kill (5th War Caster, 5th War Rider).
[again, per FSN]

But some burn mana just by existing. Any hero summoned as Berserker does this. Any time Berserker fights, Kariya loses huge amounts of mana. Ilya didn't suffer as much because her mana capacity was as monstrous as her Servant.

[Buffalobiian]

Okay, this went off from what I was trying to illustrate, so I'll backtrack/confirm a bit.

I agree that servants require mana to exist in the war.


Saber's used a ton of mana for Excalibur and also exerted herself fighting those tentacles, but so far Lancer hasn't really shown that he even uses mana in the first place.

Read: Saber vs Lancer is back to the Dock fight even if she is lower on mana than Lancer. Lancer may have more mana, but his Noble Phantasm is "always on", so it doesn't give him an edge. Saber was reluctant to use her Excalibur blast in the earlier fight to not give her identity away, so her inability to fire it soon now doesn't disadvantage her.* If they were having a duel that tested their endurance then their Mana difference could be be pivotal but I do not consider it likely.

* = of course, circumstances have actually changed. Everyone knows she's Arthuria now so she can vaporise shit without trying to hide her identity at the same time.


But some burn mana just by existing.

I have the impression that Berserker burns mana like crazy when he's corporeal, but not when he's tucked away as a ghost.

[Ryllharu]

You make it sound like Saber will run out of mana/prana. She's being properly supplied by Kiritsugu, it's not like the 5th War. Excalibur is draining, but it's not going to put her at a huge disadvantage. She just can't fire it in succession, plus it takes a while to charge.

It's like Lina Inverse's Dragon Slave from the movies (not the Slayers tv series where it is used comically). Actually, the special effects used in this episode make it appear very similar to the movie kind.

[Buffalobiian]

You make it sound like Saber will run out of mana/prana. She's being properly supplied by Kiritsugu, it's not like the 5th War. Excalibur is draining, but it's not going to put her at a huge disadvantage. She just can't fire it in succession, plus it takes a while to charge.

I think she will given the following conditions:

1) Both masters have the same amount of mana reserve to supply their servants
2) Both servants only obtain mana from their one master
3) Both servants use mana at a rate that is faster than that which can be regenerated by their master
4) Both servants engage in a materialised, equally matched fist fight only
5) Both servants burn equal amounts of mana pts/second during this fight.

[Buffalobiian]

[Shin-S] Fate Zero OP2 Single - to the beginning (FLAC) [Kalafina].zip (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=305324)
[Shin-S] Fate Zero OP2 Single - to the beginning [Kalafina].zip (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=305112)

[Xelbair]

1) Both masters have the same amount of mana reserve to supply their servants
2) Both servants only obtain mana from their one master
3) Both servants use mana at a rate that is faster than that which can be regenerated by their master
4) Both servants engage in a materialised, equally matched fist fight only
5) Both servants burn equal amounts of mana pts/second during this fight.

1) Flase - it is not the same amount - you've got rogue magus vs archmagus here.
3) true - but only in combat(with one obvious exception in F/SN).
5) false - saber uses mana burst with her attacks - which drain A LOT more mana in exchange for massive bonus to strength of the attack.

[shinta|hikari]

Episode 03 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=307282)

Kyaaaa~ Kiritsugu!!! <3<3<3

[Archangel]

NOW THAT'S HOW YOU FIGHT IN A FUCKING GRAIL WAR!!!

Really puts the fifth war to shame in terms of strategy.

[shinta|hikari]

It helps that Kayneth was a fucking idiot. If he had any brains, he should have realized how honor obsessed Saber was, and should have called Lancer to save his fiance using the command seal instead.

Lancer was awesome. That rage from the dishonor he received was really well delivered, and was a distinct contrast to the smile he showed when he fell in love with Saber's honor.

[Buffalobiian]

My biggest question here was how Iri felt about all this. She was disturbed, certainly, and their positioning symbolised their relative positions very well:

Saber at one end, Kiritsugu at the other, Irisviel in the middle (sort of, she's closer to Kiritsugu), being able to converse with both of them.

I think in the end, she can't fully agree with how Kiritsugu does things, but trusts his inner self and knows that he's only doing terrible acts for the sake of a better cause that will be worth it.

I don't get the priest though. He's got an entire supply of command spells. It leaves the door wide open to corruption.

Archibald redeemed himself a fair bit this episode. While he's a dumbass and all.. I was surprised he (still) loved Sola-Ui that much.

[shinta|hikari]

Iri always knew what he did, but this was the first time she saw it. That is what disturbed her, but her odd behavior was likely due to her health issues than any disdain towards Kiritsugu.

Saber's understanding of Kiritsugu came as a pleasant surprise. It seems she can be perceptive at times.

[Archangel]

Archibald redeemed himself a fair bit this episode. While he's a dumbass and all.. I was surprised he (still) loved Sola-Ui that much.

I don't think that was ever in question, if anything it was the reason why he gave Lancer such a hard time.

I just honestly love the way Kiritsugu handles himself in this war. He's not about to let his servant get in the way of what could be an easy victory and he's always one step ahead. Miles away of all the bulshit Shirou put us through.

[shinta|hikari]

I love Kiritsugu characters. Pragmatic yet idealistic, cold yet struggling, cruel yet kind, powerful yet weak.

I love your sig btw. I was going to make a SaberXLancer one until he freaked me out with his bloodshot eye cursing.

Kayneth knew that his fiance was just being manipulated by the mole. It is not like she truly loved Lancer for any genuine reason.

[Archangel]

Regardless of him knowing or not it was still one hell of a kick in the nuts.

Let me know if you find any good Kiritsugu pics for an avatar.

[David75]

A nice little dark episode.
I know Archibald has been through a lot, but really not being able to understand the single truth the contract only affects Kiritsugu AFTER it is agreed and does not even mention his servant...
Even if you don't know Kiritsugu has an underling, you do know he's got a servant.
You really should be able to understand that Kiritsugu could have asked Saber to kill Archibald and Sola before he is bound by the contract...

Another Lancer bites the dust in a suicide, I was a little surprised he disappeared so quickly.

[Kraco]

A really powerful episode, and the only glitch was indeed the way Archibald fell so easily to the trap. He had just priorly cheated a command spell out of Kirei's old man and shot him right after, so having the same befall to himself was kind of dodgy. Not that I'd yet be willing to believe Risei is dead for good, but Kayneth no doubt is. I guess he lost his cool completely, with Sola-Ui in enemy hands and Lancer never behaving like he wanted.

This war really highlights how amateurish the next one will be. Only Kirei and Zouken are any good in the fifth war, and both of them are too twisted shadow lurkers to really fight like this.

Lancer's fate in this and the next war almost makes me think the whole class is cursed.

[Ryllharu]

My biggest question here was how Iri felt about all this. She was disturbed, certainly, and their positioning symbolised their relative positions very well:

Saber at one end, Kiritsugu at the other, Irisviel in the middle (sort of, she's closer to Kiritsugu), being able to converse with both of them.

I think in the end, she can't fully agree with how Kiritsugu does things, but trusts his inner self and knows that he's only doing terrible acts for the sake of a better cause that will be worth it.I agree with shinta, any change in her behavior became clear minutes later that she was just barely holding it together hiding her health issues. She doesn't want Kiritsugu to find out not only because she doesn't want him to worry, but also because she doesn't want him to lose his composure in public.

I'm convinced that while she is more sympathetic to Saber's disdain for Kiritsugu's methods, she's not in any way opposed to how he is doing things. The Einzberns are not good-hearted magi. They harbor no illusions about how the wars are fought, since they are one of the original families. Even her daughter, Ilya, is one of the most pragmatic and cruel magus in FSN, and look how happy and innocent she had been raised by her parents. She was never opposed to using less straightforward means, in addition to just having Berserker smash everything.

Iri does not share the pure-hearted naiveté hidden by bluster that Rin does, the knightly stupidity that Shirou does, or the righteousness that Archibald did and even Kariya seems to have in his own level of sacrifice. She's kind, but incredibly stern when she needs to be. In episode 8, she was asking that Maiya shoot Kirei in the back while she held him in place, before they found out how much of a monster he was first hand.

[shinta|hikari]

No naive idealist can love the mage-killer.

[Buffalobiian]

I agree with shinta, any change in her behavior became clear minutes later that she was just barely holding it together hiding her health issues.

I would have thought that was the case had she taken a different approach. She seemed awfully critical of him this episode. Outwardly/objectively critical doesn't equate to inner disagreement (I'm a prime example of that). Given the way she usually trusts Kiritsugu though, I had to wonder if she wanted to hear Kiritsugu's explanation herself as much as she wanted him to say his feelings to Saber.

I don't feel this way from just this episode. It stems from her scenes during and after the Archibald fight at the Einzbern castle. Her face suggested she was either slightly unsure of Kiritsugu's methods while believing he's human or simply out of worry that his actions will cause a rift between his servant and himself.

As for Einzbern upbringing, it's true that Einzberns haven't been shown to be good hearted Magi, but their status as being one of the original families and all doesn't matter. Daddy Tohsaka's a good counter-example. I do think that my perception of the magi ways has been changed somewhat though. Archibald's shooting of the priest this episode blurred the stark contrast that was established by the likes of Tohsaka and Kiritsugu.


In episode 8, she was asking that Maiya shoot Kirei in the back while she held him in place, before they found out how much of a monster he was first hand.

...

I don't know what to think of this one. Like.. Saber's all honourable and stuff if the enemy's a decent person. She had no problem ganging up on the sea monster last time. I see it as perfectly reasonable for two girls to help each other when some man attacks them at night..




Anyway, to bring it back to the point.. I suppose Iri's concerned/unsure look at the castle and her questioning ways this episode were all due to her trying to maximise the relationship/understanding between Kiritsugu and Saber.

[Ryllharu]

Mentioning that they are one of the original families means that they have fought in every war since its inception, so they know honor may not always be present. Even children's card game series don't pretend that everything is done honorably. Honor-bound combat isn't called an "ideal" for no reason.

Rin is a counter-example. We know that she gets raised believing all magi are great and wonderful. Of her father, she sees him making unicorns and stuff out of crystals, not burning her uncle alive. She doesn't yet realize how brutal things really are. Tokiomi is largely sheltering her. You'll note he had no such reservations about his other daughter.

If it was the 5th War, Iri would have left him tied up to the tree. Instead, with zero hesitation, she asked Maiya to kill him while she held him in place. Saber isn't a super-idealist because of how her reign ultimately went, so she wouldn't have objected to the killing itself, but shooting someone in the back while they are helpless is not the definition of honorable. However, Iri knew that was the only way they could stop Kirei (even if it ultimately failed).

[fireheart]

Even if you don't know Kiritsugu has an underling, you do know he's got a servant.
You really should be able to understand that Kiritsugu could have asked Saber to kill Archibald and Sola before he is bound by the contract...

Wouldn't ordering Saber to kill them be the same as breaking the contract since he can't intend to harm them thus once the contract is in place he can't order anyone to harm them.

[Buffalobiian]

Mentioning that they are one of the original families means that they have fought in every war since its inception, so they know honor may not always be present.

It doesn't mean they automatically approve of encourage such actions, which was what you're suggesting with "they're not good hearted magi".


Rin is a counter-example. We know that she gets raised believing all magi are great and wonderful. Of her father, she sees him making unicorns and stuff out of crystals, not burning her uncle alive. She doesn't yet realize how brutal things really are. Tokiomi is largely sheltering her. You'll note he had no such reservations about his other daughter.

Rin didn't think Magi were assholes when she was being reared, but I'm sure she learned that soon enough. I would imagine she came across enough to find at least one bad apple. Not sure if she thought Kirei was one though.

Tokiomi still held his own code of being a proud magi and everything. Picking a fight with Berserker's master while the two servants duke it out is different than letting your servants duke it out and secretly sniping/extorting the other guy (especially to the point where you force the master to kill their own servant before you do so).


If it was the 5th War, Iri would have left him tied up to the tree. Instead, with zero hesitation, she asked Maiya to kill him while she held him in place. Saber isn't a super-idealist because of how her reign ultimately went, so she wouldn't have objected to the killing itself, but shooting someone in the back while they are helpless is not the definition of honorable. However, Iri knew that was the only way they could stop Kirei (even if it ultimately failed).

I totally don't get this.. Iri in the 5th war? /lost the rest.

[Kraco]

Tokiomi still held his own code of being a proud magi and everything. Picking a fight with Berserker's master while the two servants duke it out is different than letting your servants duke it out and secretly sniping/extorting the other guy (especially to the point where you force the master to kill their own servant before you do so).

I don't know about that. I'm more inclined to agree with Gil and think Tokiomi just likes to sit on his hands bathing in intelligence and cooking up nefarious plots till the day the sun runs out of fusion material.

[David75]

Wouldn't ordering Saber to kill them be the same as breaking the contract since he can't intend to harm them thus once the contract is in place he can't order anyone to harm them.

The contract binds Kiritsugu for actions he takes after it is in effect.
Strategies he had hours before are not excluded. That's why it is strange Archibald isn't even able to see that.

But I guess that in the end he had no choice at all since he really cared about Sola.
Should he agree or not, they're both dead no matter what.

[Buffalobiian]

I don't know about that. I'm more inclined to agree with Gil and think Tokiomi just likes to sit on his hands bathing in intelligence and cooking up nefarious plots till the day the sun runs out of fusion material.

Well he did jump out of Gil's UFO on his own accord after seeing Kiriya.

[Kraco]

Well he did jump out of Gil's UFO on his own accord after seeing Kiriya.

I guess even old Tokiomi got a little spirited when he was forced to leave his lair to deal with the building sized tentacle monster about to raep the city and drawing too much attention.

[Ryllharu]

Rin didn't think Magi were assholes when she was being reared, but I'm sure she learned that soon enough. I would imagine she came across enough to find at least one bad apple. Not sure if she thought Kirei was one though.

I totally don't get this.. Iri in the 5th war? /lost the rest.
Sweating the details...missing the point. It's a joke. IF Irisviel was a character in the 5th War given her outward disposition, she would act like all the young stupid children involved in that war (Shirou, Rin, Shinji, even Bazett). The 5th War was a lot more touchy-feely, shallow, and fair. It was a much more defensive war, assaults were mostly blatant and lacking pretty much all subterfuge. Rather than trying to kill Kirei, she would have just tied him up, and left him there believing the problem resolved for the night.

As for Rin, sure, by the time the war started, she was very jaded on the outside, hardened, and stern. But wasn't the whole point of UBW and the latter half of Fate that deep down, Rin is as much of a noble idealist as Shirou? Even though she knew that wasn't the case, she wanted it to be true.

[KrayZ33]

Woah, Lancer scared the shit out of me.
I'm very impressed by Fate/Zero so far, its without doubt one, if not *the* best anime I've seen so far. This episode (of course among others) made sure of it.

I love Emiya's view of things, he's totally right with everything he said to Saber so far.

edit: the more I watch it, the more I like it

its hard to explain, but Lancer's Death Scene has so much meaning to it.
You could understand why he got so pissed, why he cursed everyone around him.
You start to feel bad for Saber, who gets falsely accused too...
Despair, hate, rage, sorrow, fear, everything was there.

and right after that, there is a (in my opinion) really meaningfull discussion whether someone should care about Valor, Honor and Chivalry or not etc.

you see, Lancer going "berserk" is not comparable to Naruto or (insert random shounen-MC) seeking "revenge", its not his wish to protect someone he loves after she got hurt by the villain or something like that. Everything he got has been taken away by them and even though he's suppossed to be a "heroic spirit", he was always forced to betray his ways... all the time.

man, I think this had a greater impact on me than any other Anime scene before so far.

[animus]

As much as Kiritsugu sounds right I still hate him. Also further compounded by my hate for his Voice Actor. Both things just pissed me off so much during the episode.

Also I feel bad for the Lancer class in general. They get the typically most boring Noble Phantasms, and the lamest exits. Short end all the way.

[Buffalobiian]

I don't know of any heroes who are known for using lances/spears besides Odin, but he's a god so he might not count. Gil and Hercules are part divine/raised on Earth.. so I don't think they count as actual fully divine gods.

That pretty much means they had to make up the stats for the other lancers.

[Archangel]

Gods can't become servants, it's a rule.

Off the top of my head i think the Roman who speared Jesus could probably become a antihero servant.


-spoiler removed

[Ryllharu]

But demigods definitely can.

Gilgamesh, 5th War Rider, 5th War Caster (1/4 god), 5th War Berserker.

Arch: Oh, and for the sake of the constantly butthurt whiners in this thread, that latter example is a technically a spoiler.

[shinta|hikari]

What happened to this?


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[Kraco]

Off the top of my head i think the Roman who speared Jesus could probably become a antihero servant.

Haha. Did that guy even have a name? I don't think he did. But since his noble phantasm would be a confirmed hit on a person nailed to a cross and thus utterly helpless, possibly even dead already, I think I'd just quit the grail war right off the bat and leave the city in a hurry if I was the unlucky master who received such an uber lousy servant.

[Ryllharu]

One culture that Type Moon has generally avoided is the Chinese. I don't know why we've never seen Guan Yu. Maybe he was summoned in the First War or something, and was too badass to bring back.

Or perhaps it was that was deified, so he isn't eligible.

[Buffalobiian]

One culture that Type Moon has generally avoided is the Chinese. I don't know why we've never seen Guan Yu. Maybe he was summoned in the First War or something, and was too badass to bring back.

Or perhaps it was that was deified, so he isn't eligible.

The bulk of heroes we've (or I've) seen in FSN are all non-Asian heroes. The only exceptions are 5th war Archer and 5th war Caster's assassin.

Add that with the fact that the Magi Association is in London and how all of Tohsaka, Einzbern and Matou having Western estates in Fuyuki city, I assume that the magical culture of this world is of western origin. (To boot, Rin's chants and the scroll Kiritsugu presented weren't remotely Asian, plus the regulatory body in this land of Shinto and Buddhism (ie Japan) is the Church, strangely enough)

It's not to say that heroes never appeared in other cultures.. just that they don't really fit into the theme of things as such.