Book: Game of Thrones

[shinta|hikari]

Because oyabun is too lazy to make one.

Please discuss the novels here, so that free discussion is possible without spoiling those who are waiting for the television show.

[oyabun]

LOL! To start with, I want to talk about Clash of kings. It was pretty stupid of Robb to let Theon go to the Iron islands. He should have listened to his mother. A very bad move.. Poor poor Stannis, why does everyone hates him so much? He is a pretty decent and just king.

[Sapphire]

Someone tell me all the spoilers, I only bothered reading Daeny's POV.

[bagandscalpel]

Poor poor Stannis, why does everyone hates him so much? He is a pretty decent and just king.

Stannis sort of brings it upon himself; he's just way too stiff and inflexible, yet lacks the majestic charisma of Tywin. The raw iron comparison was pretty much spot-on.

[oyabun]

Omg I just read what Dany did in Astapori(A storm of swords). Dany did not really "wow" me before but after what she did in the slaver's city... They got owned.

[Munsu]

Not reading the whole thread as I've yet to read the books, but planning to. Are you guys only discussing the first book or the series as a whole? If it's the series let me know to change the thread title.

[Sapphire]

"Series: Song of Ice and Fire"????

[Munsu]

"Series: Song of Ice and Fire"????

Lol, that "Book" tag isn't really working well for series titles. Might have to figure out something better. But, it would be "Book: Song of Ice and Fire" for now until we figure out some more appropriate tag that represents both standalone and series of novels.

[Sapphire]

"Books"?

[oyabun]

Hmm what do you guys think? It will be hard to discuss stuff at the same time not to spoil for future readers. I think we should make a thread per book. For Clash of kings and A storm of swords I guess?

[Munsu]

Yeah, let's go with that... but the question still remains, you guys discussing the full series?

I have all the books at home, but haven't gotten in the mood to read them yet. And I'm holding off in watching the tv series, with the new book being released in about 2 weeks, I hope that's enough of a motivator to start.

Edit: Didn't see oyabun's post. Just pm when you guys decide.

[rockmanj]

I just started book one. There is a lot of Man on teenage girl sex...which is really strange. The rest of the book is actually compelling though. I am enjoying the different threads and such.

[Sapphire]

The newest book just came out! Anyone read it yet?

[oyabun]

I just finished book 4. I lolled at George's remarks at the end. It was dated 2005 and he was hoping that A dance with dragons will come out by next year.. Well yea.. Anyway I am starting to read book 5 now.

EDIT: I just opened it, the map looks great!!

[Yukimura]

I'm in the process of reading book 5 now, at first it was a bit hard to remember what happened in A Storm of Swords (2000) which the latest book takes place immediately after but I'm mostly back into it at this point. Fortunately I read all 4 books in the span of about 4 months, I weep for those who read them as they came out and haven't revisited them since before trying to read book 5.

[xtallography]

Reading book 5 and so far so meh. I wasn't a big fan of the pace in book 4 and since some part of book 5 follows the same timeline I am not a fan of the pace again.

[oyabun]

The one thing I did not like while reading book 4 was when I am reading Cersei's chapters. I hate the bitch. Although I particularly loved her last few chapters.

[bagandscalpel]

The one thing I did not like while reading book 4 was when I am reading Cersei's chapters.

Actually liked her chapters the best, hers and Jaime's.

There's an interesting dichotomy in the twins' chapters, where one is doing her best to undo the stability of Westeros, whilst the other slowly grows into one of the few voices of reason in Tyrion's absence.

Started book five not too long ago, not really have that much expectation for it, considering that book four is only one side of the story, and everything's sort of in this down-time.

[Yukimura]

Finally finished Dance with Dragons. Good times but there were no signs at all that the end is in sight. I've heard now that Martin may feel the need to extend the series to 8 books to get everything he wants out and I can only hope I'll still be interested in about 5 years when the next book will probably come out.

[Sidnne]

There is no point reading beyond book 3. By then he has killed off most of the interesting characters. All he has left are boring, uninspired characters that he has to pull out of his ass to replace the more interesting ones that we had invested in.

I was totally hooked on this series, but it wasn't long into the 3rd book that I started to realize that it was basically the same writing over and over and it all became very predictable. The characters aren't deep, they all share the same emotional thinking. They all ride the same reactionary wave of Content -> Angry -> Content no matter what the situation is.

Every negative thing that happens to a major/semi-major character is always an act of betrayal.

"X character goes to do something, BUT ALL OF A SUDDEN BETRAYAL". It doesn't matter if it's a King or a cook. Repeat this about 4,000 times and you have Game of Thrones.

[rockmanj]

Just finished book 5. I am enjoying the series, but damn, if there isn't a lot of people to keep track of. I actually like the Lannister chapters the most I think, even though Cersi's smugness and stupidity can get annoying.

[Yukimura]

I was jonesing for some more SoIaF and found myself reading the three Dunk and Egg novellas. They aren't as epic as the main books by any stretch but for a world lover and minutiae enthusiast I think they offer some good insights into the general workings and history of Westeros. The novellas mostly take place about 100 years before the start of GoT and about 10ish+ years after the (first) Blackfyre Rebellion. The Blackfyre Rebellion(s) are mentioned several times in the main series and had aftereffects that are felt in the main series, particularly in books 4 and 5.

[villin]

The story has lost focus imo. With Dany stagnating on the wrong side of the narrow sea, every character worth a damn being killed off and no real climax that we are building toward the story just seems to lack any progression. Wasn't the entire point of the books supposed to be a self-defeating struggle for the throne overshadowed by the looming threat from the Others?

What happened to that arc? The free folk were fleeing south to escape the Others, the battle at the Fist of the First Men showed the imminent threat to the wall. Now it's like that wasn't even a big deal or of any urgency. Mance had other ways to get passed the wall but he chose a direct attack because it was the fastest way to escape the Others.

I realize the story is a work in progress but it just seems poorly managed. Don't get me wrong, I own and love the books but it seems like Martin has no plan or direction.

[rockmanj]

I was jonesing for some more SoIaF and found myself reading the three Dunk and Egg novellas. They aren't as epic as the main books by any stretch but for a world lover and minutiae enthusiast I think they offer some good insights into the general workings and history of Westeros. The novellas mostly take place about 100 years before the start of GoT and about 10ish+ years after the (first) Blackfyre Rebellion. The Blackfyre Rebellion(s) are mentioned several times in the main series and had aftereffects that are felt in the main series, particularly in books 4 and 5.


I just finished them a couple of weeks ago. They are some pretty nice little novellas.

[animus]

Just finished A Dance with Dragons and I feel like so far it's been the weakest book in the series. I pretty much dreaded everytime I read a Tyrion chapter, they were so boring. Which was a stark comparison to his chapters in past books, where I found his chapters to be the most interesting.

As long as this book was, I felt I spent a lot of time hoping I would get to a more interesting character's perspective. A lot of inaneness also plagued Daenaerys' chapters with too much focus on her marriage and her wiles in Meereen. It's a shame what they did with the wildling storylines, back in the 2nd book was it? I found Jon Snow's escapades among them to be the most intriguing.

However, complaining aside I still enjoyed the book. I did enjoy Reek's chapters, as well as Victarion's. Rather I pretty much enjoyed a lot of the Ironborn's. I don't feel they explore them enough. I powered through the books, so I didn't have to wait years between A Feast for Crows and a Dance with Dragons. Hopefully the next book finds it's direction and doesn't release in 5 years.

[Y]

ADWD was good. The problem is, I've been waiting basically 8 years to read it (since the "A Dance With Dragons" I was anticipating after finishing Storm of Swords ended up split into two books). "Good" isn't worth waiting eight years. In addition, there's really no chance Martin can finish the series at this point.

[animus]

Hm. Anybody have any recommendations for a fantasy series similar to Song of Ice and Fire? I tried reading the first couple chapters of the first book of the Wheel of Time series and I just couldn't get into it. It probably just felt too similar to LoTR for my taste. I think I enjoyed the adult nature of Song of Ice and Fire a lot more, what with it's sex, descript violence, etc.

[Sapphire]

Not sure, in terms of sex+violence+old world building.

But sex+violence is pretty much default in Urban Fantasy.

Laurell K Hamilton
Kim Harrison
Karen Marie Moning

[Belial]

Hm. Anybody have any recommendations for a fantasy series similar to Song of Ice and Fire? I tried reading the first couple chapters of the first book of the Wheel of Time series and I just couldn't get into it. It probably just felt too similar to LoTR for my taste. I think I enjoyed the adult nature of Song of Ice and Fire a lot more, what with it's sex, descript violence, etc.

Joe Abercrombie's The First Law series and The Heroes

[xtallography]

Jim Butcher's Codex Alera

[masamuneehs]

i've read this series so far. it's enjoyable, but it's certainly not incredible. there's plenty of intrigue and mystery... but there's not too much depth or symbolism. it's exciting, but not exactly the most thought provoking books ever written. the author's style is terse and simple, which fits the world quite well most of the time. some really funny moments also.

my biggest gripe is with the chapter arrangment. making each chapter revolve around one character has the pros of making us go really in-depth into that character... ... but it also lets the author do shameless cliffhangers. also, more and more he's adding new characters, and although I thought it was good to add in Jaime and Cercei later and develop them from their own view points, after establishing them from one angle, i still can't figure out what the hell the point of some of the other characters are doing with chapters dedicated to them. it seems like the author got stuck in a spot where he had to narrate certain scenes and introduce other characters... ...but he didn't have any established characters in those spots... so we get Davos, Brienne, the Iron Islanders, and now a whole ton of others by the end of Dance With Dragons. somehow i feel a bit cheated with so many chapters coming from these characters, because i'd much rather read about the established characters.

also, what he did with Feast for Crows and Dance With Dragons, dividing one book into two, is simply unacceptable. any junior high school student can tell you that that is NOT acceptable.

Masa's random thoughts: (contains massive spoilers about the most recent books)
I always fucking hated Catelyn. Jesus. But now that she's this undead bitch, I really can't stand her. What's worse, I'm furious because apparently Beric Dondarrion was the one who got her back into the story, and he was one of my favorite minor characters, a sorta "George Washington" figure leading a rag-tag group of men against far stronger adversaries. Fucking christ.

Littlefinger and Varys are the only two "intrigue" characters that really intrigue me. I could honestly care less about the mages in Oldtown or Melissandre (bitch is backing the wrong horse) or any of the other mysterious people going on. And I don't really care much about the mysteries of "what really happened with Lyanna?" and "who is Jon's mother?" Soap opera storylines. Oh, and that one Assai sorceress who visits Daenerys is pretty cookie-cutter also.

Rhaegar Targaryen. The man everyone loved. Lyanna, Cercei, Jon Connington (really. this guy is so homo for Rhaegar). I think there's a lot going on with this character, but I wonder if the author will ever get around to building a complete picture of him.

Jon Snow. You were my favorite chapter character until you went and fucking mutinied. Seriously. What part of "don't trust the Boltons" don't you understand? Do you really have such a hardon for Arya? Also, he better be fucking dead. Or I'll be furious.

Arya. Some of her scenes in the 2nd and 3rd books really were excellent. She's great, but I think there's a lot more that could be done with her scenes. The idea of this little girl sliding into a world of violence could be material for an entire story to itself. But the author doesn't really seem interested in doing much thematically. Some of her scenes could be downright uncomfortable and semi-horrifying (in that this once innocent girl is doing these terrible things and is mentally turning into a baddie).

Davos. I don't know what it is about this guy, but I like him and most of his scenes. It might be because...

Stannis. Stannis is the man. Bow before the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, bitches. ...of course, I know he doesn't have a chance in hell. All those shadow spawn babies pretty much damned him from the start. And he's had a rough time of it going up against Bolton and the Ironmen. But he's the one guy who at least tries to do what's right because it's the right thing to do... even if he is way too proud and rigid.

Daenerys. This chick needs to get her head checked. She pretty much started making all the wrong moves after she pulled one of the most awesome tricks by taking the Unsullied and defeating the slavers in Astapor. I get that she's a woman and all... but this recent stuff with her and Daario really paints her as a chick who thinks with her slit and not her head. That and she's constantly going on about being a "mother" but she continually neglects the only children she can ever have. Hypocrisy isn't a pretty quality.

Cercei. I love this nasty bitch. She really is like a foil to Ned Stark. So many things in common... yet entirely different people...

Tyrion. What happened, Tyrion? You used to be the man. I guess you really are going to let your tragic flaw be your undoing... A shame... Well, at least try to get some more humor into your chapters next time. Also, if you fall in love with that dumb dwarf girl i'm going to scream.

Reek. Man, I hated this fucking kid so much at first. until Dance, I actually pretty much hated all of the chapters that focus on the Ironborn (i like Asha, I just don't like that she gets fucking chapters), because even though they're factors in all this, it's painfully clear that they're playing a "support role of plot convenience". So I sorta shuffled all the blame onto Reek... until his chapters were, in my opinion, the one real shining point in Dance. Pathetic and twisted. I love to hate this character. The author's perverse style of humor and his off-kilter writing style really worked well for Reek.

Everybody from/in/around Dorne. There had better be a good goddamn reason why we're spending so much time on these characters. I see them as reverse Ironborn. They're almost certainly going to end up helping Daenerys and probably also the Starks... but I still don't have hardly any reason to give a shit about them.

Sansa. I love to hate Sansa, too. But I do feel a little bad for her at times, since she's so painfully dim about the important things. Her scenes have been awesome though, since she's been pretty much the only Stark in and around the political intrigue that's been going down at King's Landing, and now in the Vale.

The Hound. This guy had better not really be dead. He's one of the characters I like best, and really showcases what makes this series good. He's got his flaws and his own agenda and his own quirks. He's a bit of a collection of character traits, but still feels original. He surprises you and adds tension to almost every scene he's in. You can't really like him... ...but you almost want to root for him somehow (the author really plays this duality love/hate card with all characters, doesn't he?).

Brienne. My best friend loves this character. I think the best part of her scenes was Pod. She's like a bad fanfic.

Egret. I sorta liked this character. A shame.
Ned. I really liked this character. A shame, but necessary.

Wargs and shit. I don't really care for the wolf scenes. Ditto the Greenseeing.

Wights and Cold Ones. I sorta really like the menace they present. I just hope that there's more complexity here, because it would be pretty lame if they were another run of the mill "evil undead horde wants to take over the planet".

Rhollor. I like what they're doing with this. It's clear that this "god" isn't exactly all benevolent or all good. He's probably as bad as whoever the boss of the Cold Ones is.

Melissandre. A very necessary character. Shockingly, when we finally got a chapter from her POV, it cast her as a very normal person. I was not expecting that from someone who births demon shadow spawn. I can't wait for her to get her comeuppance.

[Sapphire]

Hm. Anybody have any recommendations for a fantasy series similar to Song of Ice and Fire? I tried reading the first couple chapters of the first book of the Wheel of Time series and I just couldn't get into it. It probably just felt too similar to LoTR for my taste. I think I enjoyed the adult nature of Song of Ice and Fire a lot more, what with it's sex, descript violence, etc.

Queen of Kings by Maria Dahvana Headly. Wonderfully written, this book is pretty much a wondrous cycle of blood, espionage and sex.

[animus]

I'll probably try out those recommendations.

But as of now, one of my friends highly recommended the Malazan Book of the Fallen series by Steven Erikson. I'm about halfway done with the first book and so far it's pretty good. They've got their own magic "system" and there's plenty of depth yet introduced it seems. It's less about politics and human interaction than say Song of Ice and Fire, but there's a lot more intrigue and mystery involving magic, ancient powers, gods, etc.

[Augury]

I picked up the first book at the airport three weeks ago thinking "isn't this that highly-rated TV series?", got hooked, and just finished plowing through the six books that have been published. I thought the books were entertaining and carefully written. There's a lot of foreshadowing on a few different levels, which is a joy to stumble across when I don't really stop to analyze the story. Masa's post was fun to read, so I figured I'd write a similar one even for a thread that's been silent for nine months.

Structure and increasing POVs: I also felt that Martin was adding the extra POV of minor characters just to show what was going on in a particular location, which was unfortunate. Sometimes readers are better served when the author doesn't go into all the details of what happened everywhere. The story would've been just as good if not better by sticking to the POVs of the main characters. The chronological mess of A Feast for Crows and the first half of A Dance with Dragons was also really bad. I struggled to get through Feast because I didn't care for most of the POV characters there, then re-reading Jon and Sam's conversation in Dance was a bit grating.

Characters:
Ned / Eddard: I got spoiled a few years ago with people saying "SEAN BEAN DIED OMG" so I went through the entire first book expecting him to die. I'm a bit of a sucker for the honor-bound and good-natured type characters, so reading about him slip into the slime that is King's Landing was tragic every chapter.

Catelyn: I was okay with Catelyn. Her motives seemed very normal to me, with a level of selfishness that fit nicely between someone who is altruistic and sadistic. Her rejection of Jon was a real disappointment though. It's not as if he ever did anything to her, and wouldn't be inheriting the Stark's power anyways.

Robb: Throughout the first book, I was a bit confused as to why Robb didn't get a POV until I realized he had no future. Robb was bland to me - we see so much of him through Catelyn's eyes.

Jon: One of my favorites. Like a couple other characters, he has to manage with the hand he's dealt. He's also one of the few characters who is truly trying to cope with the impending threat from the Others that almost everyone else in the kingdom is ignorantly or stupidly dismissing. I liked his flexibility and how he isn't as bigoted as many of his peers. About him getting stabbed through... I don't think he'll stay dead. Martin has shown through Thoros that followers of Rhollor can raise the dead, and the risen are still sentient. Melisandre has been seeing Jon in her visions and needs a new card now that Stannis is freezing at Winterfell, so I think there's a good chance she revives him.

Sansa: Ugh. The highborn-lady-infatuated-with-the-prince thing was almost tolerable, chalked up to the dreams of a little girl. Her betraying Arya really killed her as a likable character (though it seems like she's one of the ones Martin has written so that readers will hate her). All her family values from Ned must've gone through one ear and straight out the other. Even the Tully's words are honor, duty, and family. I also loathe all the politicking and backstabbing nastiness, but didn't have much sympathy for Sansa getting thrown through the grinder as a hostage to the Lannisters.

Arya: Favorite character, though more and more disturbing as the story progresses. I liked how she is learning all sorts of survival skills that the average Joe would find critical in a war-torn and messed up land like Westeros. Not sure how she'll come back into the story though... but as she's learning how to be an assassin it wouldn't be surprising to see her off an important character before we're all done.

Bran: Didn't really care for him. Childish like Sansa and Arya, but isn't really maturing. Not too enthused about the greenseer stuff either now that he's stuck underground in no-man's land.

Tyrion: My first thoughts when reading his chapters was that Martin is going to keep him around forever just so he can write in all those raw jokes. Didn't really like or hate his character - one of those POVs that I just kinda cruised through.

Cersei: Hate the bitch. Feast of Crows was really hard for me to get through mainly because I loathed reading her chapters. I'm not sure why so many people enjoy reading her POV. Reading about an ambitious, evil, self-absorbed, and not intelligent character slowly choking the realm into ruin who thinks she's in the right was suffocating.

Joffrey: Spoiled brat that everyone loves to hate. Oddly, he didn't really rub off on me like Cersei did.

Jaime: Pretty interesting character, especially once you dig into his motives for many of his actions. Still enough to be damned, but I thought out of all the added POVs in the later books his had the most value.

Littlefinger, Varys, and Illyrio: Probably the three people causing the most grief to the land (+Cersei) from all their scheming. I hope they all get their due before this ends.

Stannis & Davos: Didn't really care for either of them.

Theon: Ugh again. Obviously, I don't like reading about douches when a story is told from their perspective. Not much pity for all the suffering he's going through now even though he's also a victim of his circumstances. Attitude can change so much...

The Hound: Pretty sure he's dead. That priest dude at Saltpans buried him. Lem from the Brotherhood has his helm now.

Brienne and Ironborn: Could've done without these POVs. I did like how Brienne didn't devolve into an "unbeatable solo warrior" type of character though.

Wargs: I actually found myself hoping that the Stark children improved on their warging abilities as the story progressed. I'm a sucker for old magic and abilities re-emerging into a forgotten future.

Wights and Others / White Walkers: was a bit surprised they're not showing up more often. Aren't they supposed to be a major threat? It feels like the conflict with them is going to be wrapped up in only one book near the end of the series.

Egret: Who?

Mellisandre: Also was surprised by her shockingly normal thought process when her POV was presented. I mean, this is the woman who spawned a shadow between her legs. In the whole scheme of the "vs. Others" framework though, she' seems to be trying to do good in her own way.

And finally, Daenerys: Also a favorite alongside Arya and Jon (this is probably why I liked Dance of Dragons so much more than Feast of Crows). A bit idealistic at times, but she's also working well with the hand she's dealt. The infatuation with Daario and her neglect towards her dragons were downers, but it's nice that most characters are written with flaws that turn off a good portion of readers.

Now... apparently The Winds of Winter won't be out until 2014 at the earliest, so it's going to be a long wait until this series finishes (thought of Berserk) :|