Puella Magi Madoka Magica

[Kraco]

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8640/puellamagicss.jpg

"Having a loving family, close friends, experiencing times of joy and times of sadness. These are the things that make up an ordinary life.

Kaname Madoka is a normal 2nd year middle-schoolgirl who lives such an ordinary life. Until, that is, a strange encounter occurs. She does not know if this encounter is coincidence, or the vagaries of fate, but two things are certain...

This is the moment when her destiny changes...

This is the start of a new magical girl story!" -AniDB

Themes: School, magical girl, fantasy, action
Links: AniDB (http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=anime&aid=8069), ANN (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=12120), Official (http://www.madoka-magica.com/)

Download: Episode 1 - gg (http://www.nyaatorrents.org/?page=download&tid=184401)



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First of all I should note I didn't intend to watch this, based on the description, no matter how big a Nanoha (series) fan I am. Because I'm not generally a fan of typical mahou shoujo stories. However, then I read on RandomC's blog the bizarre assembly of talents piled up for this thing: Bakemonogatari's director, Phantom - Requiem for the Phantom's script writer, and Kara no Kyoukai's composer for music. It's not exactly the kind of group of people I'd associate with middle school magical girls...

What comes to the show itself, you could surely see it's from Bakemonogatari's director. Immediately, in both good and bad. Some parts were even weirder than anything Bakemono presented, although the quickly flashing walls of text were mostly missing. And the most deranged camera angles and zooms, I should say. Well, Senjougahara's VA is present and sounds 90% Senjougahara in this show. I can't imagine the director didn't ask for that.

I'll keep watching for the weirdness alone. And it's not like it would have been bad otherwise either. Quite intriguing, in fact, so far. Seems like action will play an appropriate role, making it more tolerable.

[Board of Command]

WTF is a "Puella Magi"? I thought the series is called Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica. Why is gg naming it something completely nonsensical?

[RyougaZell]

WTF is a "Puella Magi"? I thought the series is called Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica. Why is gg naming it something completely nonsensical?

Can't believe I'm defending the trolls but... even ANN (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=12120) uses Puella Magi


Animation, aside from character design, was fantastic. I'll have trouble getting used to character design though.

Plot is weird... too weird... but I'll check a few more episodes.

[Board of Command]

The official name is Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica. What is this "Puella Magi" bullshit? Is that even a real word?

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2010-10-28/new-shinbo/shaft-anime-to-be-maho-shojo-madoka-magika

At 23:52 in the episode, Kyube clear says "...mahou shoujo..." but it got translated into "Puella Magi." WTF IS THIS?

[Kraco]

While I chose to use that funny sounding name simply because I feel no particular draw to stick to Japanese names, it still should be noted that the official site also calls it "Puella Magi Madoka Magica" in the upper left corner.

I guess the use of Latin has something to do with the bizarre world of magic we saw. Hopefully.

[Ryllharu]

Despite my recent misgivings toward shaft, their first original stab at the magical girl genre is something I couldn't miss.

I really like that Yuuki Aoi isn't as shrieky as she was in Dance in the Vampire Bund or kurenai. She's much better in her Sora no Woto and Daimaou roles, which she calls on here. I also loved the cool and mature voice Gotou Yuuko (Mikuru in Haruhi, Menace in Queen's Blade) is using for Madoka's mother. Iwao Junko (Hikari in Eva, Tomoyo in CCS, Mima from Perfect Blue) as their teacher, a nice treat! I agree with Kraco's assessment on Chiwa Saito playing Akemi. An easy-going but delicately forceful Mizuhashi Kaori (Yuuno from Nanoha, Minami in Bakatest, Akane in KgNE) right at the end too. I'm in VA heaven.

As expected from shaft, the backgrounds look wonderful, the designs are strange (classrooms, music store, etc), and the characters design is mushy. But it all fits, like in the strangely watercolor background and vivid character design of Maria+Holic. I like when their work has a softness to it, rather than looking like a narrated slideshow (Bakemonogatari, Bund). I loved the "blackboard" design.

The side characters are amusingly deranged. Madoka is perky, kindhearted, yet apprehensive. Akemi is predictably cold, calculating, and troubled. A collection of clichés, archetypes, and standard mahou shoujo fare, but mixed around in a somehow refreshing manner, with a touch good amount of shafty weirdness. The, 'If you care about your family, you should stay as yourself,' line from Akemi was enough to pique my interest. It was interesting that her friend also got involved from the start.

We're off to a solid start.

[Munsu]

http://www.madoka-magica.com/

See the logo for Puella.

But Kraco already mentioned it, so fuck this post.

[Buffalobiian]

Music and visual presentation won this over for me. It currently beats out all my other shows as "Most anticipated series" for this season.

And of the two, the score in particular. I haven't been excited about a show for quite some time.

Immediately likeable characters: Satsuya (little brother), senpai mahou shoujo.

[Buffalobiian]

gg - Episode 02 (http://www.nyaatorrents.org/?page=download&tid=186269)

[Ryllharu]

Well, shaft and friends certainly isn't disappointing.

Mami has got to be one of the coolest and most stylish magical girls I've seen in a long time. The single-use flintlocks are a distinct touch, and they also aren't her only weapons. The use of the ribbon to free herself was a first for me as far as I can remember. I completely expected one of the two girls to make a contract in order to save her, but Mami had everything under control from the start. The finisher that left her sipping tea was perfect.

As for the rest of the episode, I liked that Sayaka and Madoka couldn't really decide what they would wish for, since they haven't really faced such hardship enough to risk their lives. Sayaka's speech was thought provoking in that regard. Madoka's mother's response was predictably very amusing and gave me the warm and fuzzies.

I also thought about Madoka wishing that Homura was her friend, but thought about it again and realized what a selfish kind of wish that would be. It wouldn't put it that far from being a witch's curse. So now I'm really curious what Madoka will go for, or how they'll rationalize that one if she does go for that. Perhaps a variation, like wishing for Homura's happiness. Sayaka too, but we know a bit less about her, so it is even harder to guess at what she'll go for. She seemed to have a bit of an idea, but the way it was presented was that it was far too late for even magic to fix that.

[Buffalobiian]

I agree on all accounts regarding Mami.

My only gripes with this is that the witches turned out to be no-name illegibly tagged monsters. Nothing went wrong this episode, but they can really end up being cannon-fodder villians that we simply don't care about (or monsters-of-the-week).

I'll give them the benefit of doubt though, since the entire team pulled everything off perfectly so far.



Especially the BGM. Loved the music.



edit: On the other hand, the "recharge" actually being a "cleansing" was the key catch this episode. One potential theory that springs to mind is that Witches are fallen magical girls who didn't get their item cleaned in time.

[Kraco]

edit: On the other hand, the "recharge" actually being a "cleansing" was the key catch this episode. One potential theory that springs to mind is that Witches are fallen magical girls who didn't get their item cleaned in time.

You think Mami was lying? But who knows, and in the end even she might not know the truth.

This is a pretty interesting series despite the weird graphics. I also hope in the future we will see witches who haven't turned into eldritch monstrosities. That would be a lot more intresting than these... things. I find it hard to believe the main battles would be between Madoka and Homura. This show seems to be laughing at Nanoha but still I expect it to follow all the way to more humane enemies.

[Buffalobiian]

You think Mami was lying? But who knows, and in the end even she might not know the truth.

I don't know whether to think that she's ignorant of the truth, or whether she's lying - but she's certainly capable of it.

[KitKat]

I don't think Mami is lying (what's this? KitKat is watching a current series? *gasp*). I think she's so confident that she's right, that she won't be able to see things going wrong and clues that the world is not as she believes it to be.

I wholeheartedly think Kyubey is lying. What does Kyubey get out of this contract deal? It seems to have been trying to coerce Madoka into making the contract from the beginning, showing her the world of ruin and saying basically, "This will happen unless you make a contract with me."

Bill, you might be onto something with your fallen Puella theory of witches. I did notice that the Grief Seed they recovered looked suspiciously similar to Mami's gem. And the fact that they could leach magic power from it into their own gem.

I'm curious about what happens to a girl's gem if she's defeated by a witch. Does the witch become more powerful? Could another Puella Magi pick up a dead girl's gem and use it the same way?

This show has a lighthearted facade, but really dark undertones. Madoka's carefree family life is starkly contrasted with the potential ruin of her dream from the first ep. I like it! Will definitely keep following.

[animus]

The witch sequences felt oddly like something from a Persona game. It was interesting and I'm already in love with Mami's gunslinging.

Leave it to Shaft to have the witch as some magazine cut-out collage, but I hope they don't all look like that.

[Buffalobiian]

gg - episode 03 (http://www.nyaatorrents.org/?page=download&tid=187592)

[KitKat]

Yet again, this show definitely does not disappoint. Hats off to them for killing a main character so early in the series. Though, I suspect either Madoka or Sayako will wish for Mami to be brought back. The question is, if Kyubey brings Mami back to life (so far we haven't heard any limitations on wishes, so I'm assuming it's no big deal for Kyubey) will she still be a Puella Magi? Or will she just be a normal girl?

I'm also curious about how the size of the soul gem is somehow related to what wish is made. My theory is that the more power is required to fulfill the wish, the less power the girl has, and vice versa.

Kyubey seems quite unfazed by the loss of Mami. It must happen to him a lot, his Puella Magi getting killed by witches.

[shinta|hikari]

OMFG. If Mami stays dead, this show just made itself golden. Head chomp FTW.

I'm really curious as to what kind of power Madoka has. I hope it is as good or better than her fallen senpai's.

The themes in this show are very mature and dark, certainly not something one would expect in a mahou shoujo anime. I liked their talk about Sayaka's wish. It really does represent a lot of things people their age unconsciously (and for more intelligent ones consciously) struggle with.

I said that Fractale is this season's best show, but that was before this episode.

BTW, the ED (and battle BG theme) for this show is so bad ass. Kalafina rocks, as usual, but this is my favorite song from them to date.

[David75]

I really had a hard time with ep1 and 2.
Even if themes are darker or for a more mature audience, this really is little girls going around and fighting Magrit or Klimt monsters.
I hesistate trying Ep3 for those reasons, even if your last post lures me a lot into doing it.

[Buffalobiian]

I said that Fractale is this season's best show, but that was before this episode.

This show's taken the my number one spot this season since the first episode. Fractale can play catch-up later, but this one took off right from the start.

Headchomp was brutal. Zero gore. Full impact. The blood was artistically replaced with the "melting" ribbon that bound the dark girl, as well as the spilt tea at the end. I loved the shattered tea-cup symbolism.


When Mami revealed she had darker intentions, my first thoughts were that this "game" is really a competition between Puella Magi, with witches acting more like monsters for grinding and item farming. I also expected a much more sinister intention from Mami, but it turns out she was just so lonely that she could only jump at the chance of inviting other girls to join her - despite knowing full well the dangers she's leading them into.

Kyubey's system doesn't quite make sense at the moment. I would have thought that you'd need to "fill your quota" by killing witches in order to have your wish granted (later modified to that only one girl can have their wish granted, and are competing against each other). If you wish can be granted before hand (like how Mami survived), then what's keeping you from breaking your promise? You can always let your magic run out and live a normal girl's life again. Maybe they turn into witches when they break their contract??

The first time I watched Madoka and Kyubey's bed scene, I thought he was really evil - the way he brought up Madoka's potential and spoke about it after she said she wanted to be like Mami. That unchanging :3 has the effect of not letting know what that little thing is thinking. He could be simply telling the truth, like asking them for a wish so they wouldn't die after Mami got eaten. Even that time I initially thought he purposely set up the whole thing. Now, I'm not so sure..

In any case, people dying in a Mahou Shoujo show? Definite WIN.

[shinta|hikari]

Kyubey is the most evil magical pet I have ever seen. He looked sinister with his blank face while he talked with Madoka. I am certainly hoping he has an ulterior motive, one that is not redeemable by some more benevolent goal behind it.

I think it is now unfair to say that this is great for a mahou shoujo. I am sure it has already gone beyond that with this episode. This is just awesome, period.

What is it with this director and head snapping? Hitagi did it, characters in Zetsubou sensei did it, and now Homura did it. Does he have a fetish for twisting girls' necks in a weird angle?

EDIT: One thing I noticed about the jarring contrast between the slice of life elements and darker parts of this show is that it owes a large part of it to the art style. The art is the same style used in Hidamari Sketch, which is one of the most light hearted and relaxing shows ever, then they use that character design and get a senpai's head gobbled off. Yeah, jarring.

[Buffalobiian]

I think it is now unfair to say that this is great for a mahou shoujo. I am sure it has already gone beyond that with this episode. This is just awesome, period.

Not awesome for a Mahou Shoujo. Awesome, particularly for a Mahou Shoujo.

[shinta|hikari]

You must love your lolis magical girls, huh?

[Ryllharu]

I certainly liked the sinister edge to this series, even before the chomp.

Agree on all counts. Kyubey has a huge ulterior motive. Just the way it constantly urges the two girls to pick a wish (of course he can't help them choose one). How it just happened to appear to Mami when she needed help. There was no question there, it forced her to become one. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Kyubey managed to cause the accident. It's said before that it can sense potential. I kept wondering if something horrible was going to happen to Madoka's mother.

The bed scene was eerie like Bill said. It just sits there, flitting its tail, constantly urging. Same goes for Sayaka and Madoka first finding the seed, and later with Sayaka alone in the maze. You could just tell that it was using each opportunity throughout the affair. Undercutting the idea that there was time to get Mami, implying that Mami wouldn't get there in time, stating that the two of them need to contract now (why the both of them if Madoka alone would be stronger than Mami?). It is like a true personification of evil, constantly promising and tempting.

Mami was an interesting character. She must have felt quite desperate and trapped. She's been a magical girl for a long time. She must have seen Homura become one, and in turn try the same as she did with Madoka, try and gain an ally. Or maybe not, we may never know now. I just really like the huge flip they threw at us in just two episodes. We go from episode 1 thinking that Homura is just trying to protect Madoka, to thinking Homura is being selfish and trying to fulfill her own wish during episode 2, and then back to seeing her as trying to keep Madoka out of the hell that she got herself into and Mami was trapped into. While it is true that Mami brought this upon herself, Homura knew how strong this one would be and Mami got careless in her relief at finding a partner/patsy.

Like shinta said, this series will be stronger if Mami stays dead. Then we'll never know her true motivations, and we'll be left second guessing, as will Madoka and Sayaka as they learn more. Mami has thus far displayed a fair amount of deception herself, so we can't really know if her words to Madoka were genuine.

[Buffalobiian]

You must love your lolis magical girls, huh?

Not sure if it's sarcastic in any nature, so I'll clear it up just in case. "Particularly" as in Mahou Shoujo doesn't generally cover this stuff. This show went with the mould, then broke it in a successful manner (so far).

To answer the question directly, I dare say I'm second only to you Shinta. ;)

[RyougaZell]

Holy f... I'm speechless after episode 3 o_o

[shinta|hikari]

@Buff - I agree. I guess being a mahou shoujo is indeed a strong point, or rather invaluable for its success so far.

Also, I like lolis (like you said maybe second to none here), but am rarely a fan of magical girls. Last magical girl show I liked is Nanoha, but we all know that is awesome (period) too.

[RyougaZell]

Somehow I expect Madoka's wish to be bringing Mami back to life... but what consequences could this have? Maybe Mami would go crazy or something... I don't trust Kyubey in the least.

[animus]

Nooo, Mami. I'm kinda disappointed she died like that. Really unexpected to say the least.

[Archangel]

Somehow I expect Madoka's wish to be bringing Mami back to life... but what consequences could this have? Maybe Mami would go crazy or something... I don't trust Kyubey in the least.
I'd worship this show if zombie Mami turned out to be the last boss

Edit: Strangely fitting...

Madoka OP sync'd to Cruel Angel Thesis
http://tubedubber.com/#vQOQEVI5crQ:A62011nyXNI:0:100:0:0:true

Eva OP sync'd to Madoka's OP music
http://tubedubber.com/#A62011nyXNI:vQOQEVI5crQ:0:100:0:0:true

[Kraco]

Very nice indeed. Mami died perfectly. Aside from the other, more plot wise meaningful factors, it was also fitting she died right after commenting how the fighting feels so light now, full of confidence.

Kyubey either has to be evil himself or simply some sort of mechanism or familiar (of somebody with those ulterior motives). Either way would explain his behavior. During the first ep I was thinking he looked too much like... well, like what a being like that should look in a magical girl show, but now after all the evil vibes it's just perfect. All the undertones and the anticipation there's a dire fate waiting for the magical girls (meaning they won't be able to quit even if they wanted) gives a splendid FSN feeling.

[shinta|hikari]

"Type moon dread" is always a good thing. :)

[shinta|hikari]

Sorry for the double post, but this is worth it, I think.

Kyubey (http://img18.pixiv.net/img/cklppt/16220621_m.jpg)

Yep, pretty evil.

[Archangel]

Pretty 403 forbidden bro

[shinta|hikari]

Sorry bout that. Fixed. (http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g310/shinta617/kyubey.jpg)

[Buffalobiian]

gg - episode 04 (http://www.nyaatorrents.org/?page=download&tid=189712)

[Ryllharu]

So Sayaka succumbed. She could live with Mami's death, but couldn't live with the boy hating her, resenting her, and not depending on her. This series remains an interesting twist on the genre with so many selfish wishes. Mami was forced via desperation into it but spent her life serving others, while most other girls go willingly to it, always for selfish reasons. This really makes you wonder where Homura's wish lies, as she spends most of her time trying to keep other girls from "falling." Also pretty amusing that Madoka could be one of the last magical girls we see contract. It will be interesting to see what path she takes. Perhaps, "save all the other girls."

Kyubey remained manipulative right up through the point it left, though with the new girl appearing, it certainly hedges its bets. It didn't really seem to care one way or another, it simply let her know that a new contractor was in her way. Of course it appeared at the precise moment Sayaka needed it.

What really surprised me was what Madoka stumbled into trying to save Hitomi. I'm honestly a bit surprised they went for it. It's been relatively short time (two years?) since Japan had that huge rash of suicides using household cleaners. A nice touch to say the least. I'm sure it had considerable more impact with the Japanese audience.

[Buffalobiian]

Kyubey remained manipulative right up through the point it left

If he left at all. That critter is the devil.

Like you, I'm really eager to see what's behind Homuro's story. She seemed honest enough when she said Mami would have been happy to be remembered. Despite saying she'd be "jealous", Madoka's words put her mind in a totally different direction. Also, her last fight wasn't very indicative of what powers she uses. (explosives?)

Also, are there different fractions of magical girls? It seems strange that other magical girls would come over when Homuro herself is already in the area. Does Homuro not participate in active witch hunting? In any case, both Mami and Kyoko are on good enough terms with Kyubey, which makes me wonder if Homuro killed her own Contractor?

In all honestly, I felt that the whole Mami's death thing dragged on a little too much, despite being necessary more or less. Perhaps I had simply gotten over her death faster than the characters did.

[Ryllharu]

It seems strange that other magical girls would come over when Homuro herself is already in the area. Does Homuro not participate in active witch hunting?

In all honestly, I felt that the whole Mami's death thing dragged on a little too much, despite being necessary more or less. Perhaps I had simply gotten over her death faster than the characters did.I don't think Kyubey cares. Homura is its enemy. If anything, it is probably hoping one of the other girls will find Homura to be a threat and take her out. Mami didn't pan out that way, even though the two were hostile at the end, Mami wouldn't hurt Homura, only keep her out of it. Kyoko is going to go for the easy target, but I wouldn't be surprised if Kyubey was pushing for Madoka so hard because it knows she is strong enough to kill Homura (it has admitted she would be stronger).

Yeah, they dragged it on a little bit, but it was a incredibly traumatic event for Madoka. It received the appropriate attention, even if I would have liked it to be a bit shorter. Sayaka didn't care as much because she wasn't with Mami in the last maze like Madoka was, she didn't know everything, nor make any promises.

[miyama_ryu]

Just watched all four episodes after hearing all the hype. Man, Homura is so self-centred. I can't believe she just stood there and watched all those people attempt suicide. I guess now that Madoka has given up contracting, whether Madoka succumbs inside the witch field is of no concern to her. LOL she looked so pissed when Sayaka made it out, bet she totally underestimated Sayaka. Yeah you show her Sayaka, I hope you beat the crap out of Homura.

[Kraco]

Yeah you show her Sayaka, I hope you beat the crap out of Homura.

I doubt very much she either could or the story would go down that path. Sayaka is most likely a very average magical girl, while Madoka has the potential to be big.

Anyway, I don't see why Ryll is so bent on calling all the wishes very selfish. Because both Mami and Homura empasized it would be so? No matter what you say, Sayaka healing the dude's hand is not selfish. Mami telling her it would be was just basic psychology to make Sayaka think twice or thrice before making a contract. "He will certainly be grateful if I get the hand healed - Oh, no! That's an evil thought!" is the most ridiculous thing you could come up with. Which one is a bigger deal: The guy getting his dreams back or owing thanks to the girl (not that he would even know who did it)? And what is evil in trying to win the guy she obviously loves by helping him? Following that logic bringing flowers or chocolate to the girl you like is also evil and self-centered...

Bah. We haven't seen many wishes yet but until we see something genuinely wicked, it's much too early to call anything selfish.

[shinta|hikari]

It's not mere gratitude she wants. She wants him to be thankful enough to love her. That is what makes her feel conflicted, since it seems like she is taking advantage of his weakness to get his heart.

I do agree that this is a very weak form of selfishness. This can only be considered a truly selfish act if practically everything people do is classified as selfish as well.

[KitKat]

Which one is a bigger deal: The guy getting his dreams back or owing thanks to the girl (not that he would even know who did it)? And what is evil in trying to win the guy she obviously loves by helping him? Following that logic bringing flowers or chocolate to the girl you like is also evil and self-centered...

Bah. We haven't seen many wishes yet but until we see something genuinely wicked, it's much too early to call anything selfish.

I can see where you're coming from, but the boy has a huge problem of pride. It's that pride which will (I believe) ultimately taint his relationship with Sayaka, because now he owes her. Everything that he ever does after this, he will owe her for it. For someone who is already so proud, if he finds out that Sayaka is the source of his miracle, I think it will cause him to resent her, which will in turn cause her to become bitter because she will have lost the thing she wanted most out of this wish - her relationship with him. I imagine somewhat of a similar situation happened in Homura's case, though probably of a more drastic scale. She likely wished for something incredibly selfless out of the pure kindness of her heart (at least, based upon her comments to Madoka), but it didn't at all turn out how she hoped, and in the end all she got was fear and resentment, possibly even leading to the demise of her family in some way.

I don't think it's evil or selfish of her to wish that, but I do think that Homura's prophecy of doom is about more than just girls being defeated by witches, and we could end up watching Sayaka's entire life crumble in future episodes.

I don't think there was too much spent focusing on Madoka's grief. When you watch a lot of anime, it's easy to forget how raw the experience of encountering death is for the first time, especially within one's peer group. Grief is tough, and I'm glad they didn't just gloss over it as if seeing your friends die is a normal experience for kids.

Sayaka, being more impulsive, is more easily manipulated by Kyubey. That creature just gets more evil with every episode. I love how they don't have to make it look evil or ugly or use any cinematic devices to shout 'Evil!' at the audience. It's this subtle creepiness hidden under a cute exterior, and all the more effective because it isn't blatant at all.

I kinda thought that when Madoka was caught by the witch that she'd somehow manifest her innate magical potential without the interference of Kyubey. But, it keeps it more interesting with her just a regular girl for now.

Great show, great characters. Can't wait for next ep.

[Ryllharu]

Anyway, I don't see why Ryll is so bent on calling all the wishes very selfish. Because both Mami and Homura empasized it would be so? No matter what you say, Sayaka healing the dude's hand is not selfish. Mami telling her it would be was just basic psychology to make Sayaka think twice or thrice before making a contract. "He will certainly be grateful if I get the hand healed - Oh, no! That's an evil thought!" is the most ridiculous thing you could come up with. Which one is a bigger deal: The guy getting his dreams back or owing thanks to the girl (not that he would even know who did it)? And what is evil in trying to win the guy she obviously loves by helping him? Following that logic bringing flowers or chocolate to the girl you like is also evil and self-centered...KitKat has probably hit the balanced viewpoint (and certainly put it better than I'm about to), but I've been seeing it in a different light, so I'm going to roll with it. You're more than free to see it differently, but this is my interpretation.

It isn't the act of healing his hands, it is why she is doing it. If she was doing it because she liked his music, that would be one thing, if it was because she wanted him to be happy again, that would be different too. But Sayaka wants him to be the subject of her wish because she wants him to accept all the support she's given him. She's saddened by what he's become, a shell of the boy she admires so much, and at that very moment, he threw all her affection and care back in her face.

She goes to visit him and spends hours with him, brings him CDs of the music she liked and assumed he still liked, never understanding how much she was hurting him. She fed him hope (that he knew would never be). Sayaka was blinded by how much she cared for him and how much she admired him. When he turned around and threw it back at her, she got desperate. Suddenly everything she thought she was working for was falling apart. At that moment, he harbored no gratitude like had been hoping for, just resentment.

He likely would have got over that outburst if she apologized and just sat silently by his side until he was ready to open up again. He is stubborn, but I think if she reviewed it she would have seen what she had been doing but could have stood by him despite his rejection. She went for the quick fix. In her panic, she offered to cure him.

edit: It wasn't a wish of how she can help him (as it was when she first asked about using her wish for others), it was a wish of how can she make him love her now that he said he hates her. The timing of her wish twisted its originally pure intentions.

[Buffalobiian]

Just watched all four episodes after hearing all the hype. Man, Homura is so self-centred. I can't believe she just stood there and watched all those people attempt suicide. I guess now that Madoka has given up contracting, whether Madoka succumbs inside the witch field is of no concern to her. LOL she looked so pissed when Sayaka made it out, bet she totally underestimated Sayaka. Yeah you show her Sayaka, I hope you beat the crap out of Homura.

Was there anything to suggest she was watching the whole thing the entire time? I was under the impression that Sayaka got there before her. Homura's pissed that Sayaka became a Majou Shoujo, if anything, after all her warnings - not so much at her survival.

edit: missed a whole page of posts. My thoughts are in line with Ryll's on the whole wish/intent thing.

[Kraco]

I can certainly understand that reasoning, Ryll and KitKat, but I'm looking at it from the other end: Healing the hand of a musician prodigy losing all hope is not selfish. If you begin to dig for underlying motives, then it may become muddy, just like everything else would, like Shinta said. If Sayaka's wish had been: Make him fall in love with me, then I'd have readily agreed on it being purely selfish. But she healed his hand. Whether it indeed only ends up poisoning what's left of their relationship and even ruin the guy's personality beyond recognition, is another matter.

I will always place less emphasis on what's going on inside people's heads and what they actually do. Even if all you try to do is to gauge is whether their acts are selfish.

Although at this point I suppose it's good to note that being selfish might not equal to being evil... But there's nothing to discuss without that condition.

[Archangel]

I think all of you are digging too deep. If you follow that line of reasoning all the way down you'll just end up concluding that there is no truly good person in the world since their actions are all driven as to make themselves feel good for what they've done instead of acting for the sole sake of the other person.

In the end she ended up sacrificing her future for the sake of her friend/love interest, i don't see how anyone can consider such a thing to be selfish on her part.

[RyougaZell]

I think the boy will never even know... I think the last push Madoka will need to become a Puella Magi will be Sayaka's death at the hands of the new Puella Magi. Yes... I think Sayaka is dying soon.

[miyama_ryu]

Was there anything to suggest she was watching the whole thing the entire time?
Well from what the show has shown me so far, Homura hasn't lifted a hand against witches nor their minions, or ever tried to help anyone except to prevent Madoka from making a contract. We either see her hiding in the shadows watching Mami or trailing her on a witch hunt. Heck in the first episode, she was just standing around while those cotton ball men were closing in on Madoka and Sayaka, don't tell me with her blink ability she couldn't keep up with Madoka! Mami obviously knew Homura could not be trusted from her previous experience and tied her up before the episode three boss fight.

Consider this, Horuma actually said so herself, that she has seen more magical girls die than she could count or remember. Now thats strange, didn't episode four say MGs are territorial? So most of the time there can be only one MG in an area at a time, considering Homura's age, she could not have seen more magical girls die than she can remember unless she actively travels around to stalk MGs or they drop on a weekly basis, even then QB will have to take time to recruit. Even if I assume that QB has mad recruiting skillz, if Horuma was a nice person like Mami, shouldn't she also take them under her wings like Mami? Considering how strong Horuma is, there is no way she will let so many MGs die if she actually cared.

Lastly notice that it was only Madoka, Horuma tried to talk out of becoming a MG. Did she even bother with Sayaka? Obviously she thought the same as you did Buffalobiian, "Sayaka is only an average Magic Girl, not a threat, she will probably die in her first battle". All this leads me to agree with QB, Mami was special most MGs are calculative of their gains and losses like Homura. She will actively try to reduce the competition and go for easy kills, which is probably why she trails MGs hoping to catch a witch (or MG?) in a weakened state after a battle.

[shinta|hikari]

You really think that Homura is that evil? Clearly you don't watch a lot of anime.

This show has been surprising, but I don't think they will go that far.

Homura tried to save Mami and the others. She could have beaten the witch with her skill (whatever it is, I doubt it is blinking), but Mami tied her up.

Also, Homura said that she has seen enough people (not just MGs) die to make her give up on counting. That doesn't mean it is a literally huge number. It is probably just an expression, or much less likely MGs or Homura herself is immortal.

I also think it's pretty obvious that Homura knows Madoka even before they "met" in the first episode, so Madoka being treated as special compared to Sayaka (or anyone else for that matter) is only natural. Madoka even saw Homura in a dream, so maybe Homura had a premonition just like her, and is acting in order to avoid that sad future.

[Kraco]

For now I'd be careful about labeling Homura as villainous. Like Shinta said, she probably stopped counting very early, which would also suggest she's not so evil. However, she likely calculates a lot more than Mami ever did. Maybe she's not so sure of her prowess (a wise stance based on Mami's fate alone) or maybe she has other reasons, like trying to keep herself as much emotionally detached as possible to retain her sanity. Nevertheless, if she really was evil, she would take Madoka out by herself before she has even a chance to make a contract and become a potential adversary.

Of course there's also the chance Homura knows a lot more of the truth than she has ever revealed. If the truth is as wicked as Kyube, the circumstances alone might have transformed Homura into her current cold self.

[Buffalobiian]

Obviously she thought the same as you did Buffalobiian, "Sayaka is only an average Magic Girl, not a threat, she will probably die in her first battle".

Heh, I never thought that, but anyway.

This episode shows that Kyubey and his girls don't seem to count Homura in their territorial game anyway, so that "she shouldn't really meet anyone" theory doesn't quite apply.

As for helping out, she got tied up the first time we've seen her try.

[Ryllharu]

Of course there's also the chance Homura knows a lot more of the truth than she has ever revealed. If the truth is as wicked as Kyube, the circumstances alone might have transformed Homura into her current cold self.There is certainly a reason that Homura was going after Kyubey first, before she tried to discourage Madoka and Sayaka. She knows a lot more about that thing than she is letting on. I doubt that she wants to kill it merely to prevent other girls from contracting in the area she has moved to.

The new girl was from far away, and was on rather familiar terms with Kyubey. This doesn't seem like an instance where each girl meets a different magical pet to become magical girls. They all know Kyubey.

[KitKat]

A friend has brought to my attention that Kyubey is now answering questions and contracting with unsuspecting girls via Twitter (http://twitter.com/#!/MahouKyubey).

[Buffalobiian]

[Nipponsei] Puella Magi Madoka Magica OP Single - Connect [ClariS].zip (http://tracker.minglong.org/torrents/%5BNipponsei%5D%20Puella%20Magi%20Madoka%20Magica% 20OP%20Single%20-%20Connect%20%5BClariS%5D.zip.torrent)

gg - Episode 05 (http://www.nyaatorrents.org/?page=download&tid=191505)

[RyougaZell]

A friend has brought to my attention that Kyubey is now answering questions and contracting with unsuspecting girls via Twitter (http://twitter.com/#!/MahouKyubey).

Fantastic. Gonna follow this.

And about ep5... damn Kyubey...

And Im starting to think Madoka will never turn into a Puella Magi

[animus]

I was kinda wincing the whole episode that at any time Sayaka was gonna be impaled knowing how it's not out of the realm of possibility for a main character to just up and die.

[Archangel]

No man, she will die when you're not expecting it.

Maybe during breakfast.

[Buffalobiian]

I love how Kyubey is not proposing the question as a matter of if, but when.

[Archangel]

Apparently the manga made that scene even nastier

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/262/madokagurodeath2.jpg

[animus]

The extra gore doesn't do that scene any justice. I liked the anime's stylistic approach.

[Buffalobiian]

The extra gore doesn't do that scene any justice. I liked the anime's stylistic approach.

Same. The way the body flopped a bit, the way the magic costume disappeared..

The manga's scene suggested it wasn't so much bitten off as torn off though, which probably does make it "nastier" in the way Ark described it.

[RyougaZell]

GG Episode 6 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=193150)

ZOMG! O___O

[Buffalobiian]

How many other people were urging Kyoko to stab that little critter? I know I was.

It turned out a little better by the end of it though. At first I thought it was the worst case where your body and soul relies on the gem to function - and when you cease to have enough magic, or if you lose the gem, you lose your life.

Part of my expectation was wanting Madoka to suffer from an unrecoverable mistake. She's the most annoying character here, with Sayaka's hot-headedness coming second. It all stems from the fact that she wants to uphold her values of everyone being in harmony but is completely unable to do so - yet tries to anyway with fist-shaking resuts. Either accept that you're powerless to stop this and bend your views to feel better, or obtain the power to carry out what you think is right! I love to hate her though, since it keeps things much more interesting and acts as a point for us to explore all these concepts (like the whole right -> wrong, do something wrong -> turns out alright conversation).

I think this all but confirms out theories that Mahou Shojous do become witches (or perhaps familiars?) when they taint their Soul Gems too much. If it can happen to a Grief Seed, why not a Soul Gem?

Best part of this episode?


"Be careful. She's planning something."

(I kid)

[Archangel]

I'm pretty sure stabbing him wouldn't have done much good, she's probably not ready to face the final boss just yet

These new events make the tainting of the soul gem that much creepier, though i don't know if i agree with Bill on lost puella magis becoming witches just yet. Magical girls fight the witches and in most cases the result ends in one of them dying, how would a magi even run out of magic if not while fighting a witch?

Kyubei eats discarded Grief Seeds... how is it that none if these retarded girls realizes the fucking time bomb sleeping next to them at night? Is it because it looks adorable?

I'm somewhat convinced Homura's power involves time manipulation of some sort, though that still doesn't explain the explosive way she killed Charllote

[Buffalobiian]

Kyubei eats discarded Grief Seeds... how is it that none if these retarded girls realizes the fucking time bomb sleeping next to them at night? Is it because it looks adorable?

When Kyubey gets full... that W-something Night comes along.. (maybe)


I'm somewhat convinced Homura's power involves time manipulation of some sort, though that still doesn't explain the explosive way she killed Charllote

you know that thing's name? :S

Those girls can't ever see Kyubei in the same light again. At the same time, the whole victim thing would make them all the friendlier.. maybe. At the very least they know Homura's easily their Senpai in all of this.. possibly even " graduated" one. Normally Kyubei keeps his mouth shut and spouts a few words of encouragement whenever he can, but this marks the first time he actively discouraged something - that is, listening to Homura. Somebody even Kyubey fears? Tell me more!

[Archangel]

I had to find out when looking for avatar and sig material

My problem with that whole situation is that Kyubei just isn't subtle at all, any idiot can see he's pursuing his own agenda but for some reason Homura seems to be the only one the least bit suspicious of why some furball is wandering about making people's wishes come true and then eating the eggs dropped by evil spawns of hell

[shinta|hikari]

What is scary is Kyubei does not lie. He tells the truth when asked, or does not answer directly, but he doesn't lie.

[Archangel]

He doesn't need to lie, those girls aren't asking the right questions

[RyougaZell]

What happened to Mami's Soul Gem anyway? If the body is basically an empty shell and Mami's Soul Gem still exists... she may be returning later on.

[David75]

What happened to Mami's Soul Gem anyway? If the body is basically an empty shell and Mami's Soul Gem still exists... she may be returning later on.
My thought exactly.
That's why Madoka's wish: "I want Mami back" would have been laughable

The only fine thing in that anime is that we are at the same level of understanding/data Madoka and Sayaka are.

I was a little surprised Kyouko was oblivious to the fact her soul isn't in her body anymore.

And as everyone, I wonder why Homura knows so much, why she knows about that special night. Seems like she's some kind of special ops magical girl dealing with large scale demonic forces/events.

[RyougaZell]

I would have loved for Madoka to wish to return Mami to life... only to learn later on how her wish had been useless. Heck... I don't dislike her, but it would have been an awesome twist to go alongside the recent revelation.

[Buffalobiian]

What happened to Mami's Soul Gem anyway? If the body is basically an empty shell and Mami's Soul Gem still exists... she may be returning later on.


From IRC:

Arkangel:This reminds me Bill
Arkangel: Did we see Blonde's soul gem destroyed?
Buffalobiian:we never "saw" it
Buffalobiian:we saw mami's top get bitten off
Buffalobiian:then her barrier jacket disappear
Buffalobiian:at that point, we can only assume her magic was devoured
Buffalobiian:ie soul gem
Buffalobiian:I wondered that too
Buffalobiian:but we never saw it

[Archangel]

To which i added:

<@Arkangel> Yeah, assumptions in shaft anime
<@Arkangel> That ALWAYS works out

[RyougaZell]

Its not like if Mami's headless body could have continued battling...

[Buffalobiian]

Its not like if Mami's headless body could have continued battling...

No, but the fact that her body lost its magic seemed to suggest that either the soul gem lost all of its magic, or that the soul gem was removed from the body (no longer exists), since it goes down the Witch's belly if we assume it to be eaten.

And this episode, we saw that a Soul Gem without a body can't do anything. It just freezes in time. If she does somehow come back, it won't be from her effort alone.

[RyougaZell]

That is true.

BTW... the Kyuubey on Twitter posted this two awesome gifs
http://i54.tinypic.com/afet8l.jpg
http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/1161/1297394530977.gif

Only linked because animated

[Ryllharu]

I'm a bit late to this party, but Madoka is the kind of series you need to pay attention to, and I haven't been capable of that these past couple days.

Kyubey's conversation with Sayaka, finding out the gems are their souls themselves, and all the other stuff all but but confirmed to me that witches are fallen magical girls. Now we're just waiting to see one happen as far as I am concerned. Each time a girl uses magic, she is quite literally corrupting her soul, and each time she uses a grief seed, she's throwing that corruption onto a witch's soul. Enough of that corruption, and the witch can revive. So Kyubey chomps on it and consumes their soul grief seed. It can't be a coincidence that grief seeds look so much like a soul gem, just a blackened one.

Very Faustian, which is pretty clearly what shaft is going for.

I'll admit I was waiting for Sayaka's wish to backfire on her, but Kyouko goading Sayaka into a fight fended off that particular event for now. Kyouko had a good point, even if she was trying to give Sayaka a full blown case of Münchausen syndrome. There is always a risk in using an unlimited wish on someone else that it won't always turn out the way one hoped. I'm not going to say it will happen, but the boy doesn't come off to me as the nicest of people. All that bitterness doesn't just evaporate, it changes people.

I still like Madoka. I enjoy her optimism, misguided as it can be. Her relationship with her mother is very healthy, she constantly seeks the advice of someone she deeply respects, knows who has been through a lot, and makes all the kind of sacrifices for her family that Madoka may soon be making for her friends. She was right to throw away Sayaka's soul gem, it was the wrong thing to do, but it certainly changed everything for Kyouko.

[Buffalobiian]

Kyubey's conversation with Sayaka, finding out the gems are their souls themselves, and all the other stuff all but but confirmed to me that witches are fallen magical girls. Now we're just waiting to see one happen as far as I am concerned. Each time a girl uses magic, she is quite literally corrupting her soul, and each time she uses a grief seed, she's throwing that corruption onto a witch's soul. Enough of that corruption, and the witch can revive. So Kyubey chomps on it and consumes their soul grief seed. It can't be a coincidence that grief seeds look so much like a soul gem, just a blackened one.

Only problem is why Familiars will supposedly gain a Grief Seed from gaining enough souls - do they somehow manifest this container for their tainted soul? We could assume Kyouko was told some lies by Kyubey, but at the same time she sounded confident enough about fattening up the Familiar as if she's seen it before.

And this Walpurgis Night.. I'm sure it has references elsewhere, but all I remember are the Bible Black ones..

[David75]

Well, wikipedia mentions May 1 as the celebration of Saint Walpurga canonization.
Bonfires and dancing are characterisations of those celebrations.
Saint Walpurga was an evangelist, but other than being the first female author for Germany and England, it does not seem I can get data that would fit with the anime.

I guess that the dancing and bonfire night is a time when witches/magical girls and familiars have a very different behavior for some yet unknown reasons.

[Xelbair]

Night of Walpurgis is the night on which vile magic is the strongest, at least in anime.

[Buffalobiian]

[Shin-S] Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica ED Single - Magia [Kalafina].zip (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=torrentinfo&tid=193681)

[miyama_ryu]

I'll admit I was waiting for Sayaka's wish to backfire on her, but Kyouko goading Sayaka into a fight fended off that particular event for now.

I love it how everyone thinks Sayaka will eventually kick the bucket either due to, being betrayed by BF / killed by Kyoko / eaten by QB / assassinated "quietly" by Homura (I thought that), but Madoka who nobody suspected nearly beat them to it;)

[Kraco]

So, these magical girls are basically defective liches that are not boasting unlimited (un)life but rather a very limited life from their phylacteries. Way to draw the short stick. I somewhat hope Homura is more of a rule breaker with very special intentions or knows a way to internalize her soul back and is chasing it.

While I still don't believe so but it does seem like the economics might work even if Kyubei was the chief villain, some sort of demon, that eats pitch black souls. It might even be largely powerless itself (for now). All it needs are gullible girls in sufficient numbers. They will eventually perish (turn into witches) but enough new ones are present to defeat a witch every now and then to provide Kyubei with nutrients. It would actually be a beautifully simple demonic way of life.

[Buffalobiian]

670MB.. this better be good.

gg - Episode 07 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=194638)

[Archangel]

Haha, what the fuck am i watching? There's just so many delicious possibilities that can come from these developments...

Really, the only downside to this show so far is that they named it wrongly, Madoka will never be a puella magi.

[Buffalobiian]

Really, the only downside to this show so far is that they named it wrongly, Madoka will never be a puella magi.

You call that a downside?

I don't understand the significance of those apples though.. did Kyouko make them from magic or something? Sayaka needs to get over her "I'm a zombie" mentality. Loved how Kyubey was totally stepping on her Soul Stone in that demonstration.

[Archangel]

I got the feeling she stole the apples

And yes it's a downside, after all the hype I'd feel oh so trolled if she never became one.

[Buffalobiian]

And yes it's a downside, after all the hype I'd feel oh so trolled if she never became one.

See, I take that trolling as a bonus, but that's just me.

The apples make sense now.

[animus]

Some friend Hitomi is. You don't take or attempt to take someone else's crush, especially if you know it if you were good friends.

But then again, maybe Hitomi is just saying that to push her to take action and really doesn't like him?

[Buffalobiian]

Some friend Hitomi is. You don't take or attempt to take someone else's crush, especially if you know it if you were good friends.

If the two have already started dating I honour this rule, but otherwise it's a free market in my books.

Their crush is as big a deal as your own crush.

[Archangel]

Some friend Hitomi is. You don't take or attempt to take someone else's crush, especially if you know it if you were good friends.

But then again, maybe Hitomi is just saying that to push her to take action and really doesn't like him?

Yeah, why should she pursue her own feelings when there's the remote possibility her friend might eventually pursue the same guy?

"Everything is fair in love and war" and "You snooze, you lose" come to mind.

[KitKat]

Well, they didn't do it the way I expected, but we've come to the point where Sayaka realizes that her ultimate goal of her wish (being loved by Mr. Emo Violin Dude) has become impossible precisely because she became a Puella Magi. I really love how the final witch fight was done all in shadow. This show is visually amazing.

As for Hitomi, she's been left out of everything that's been happening, and all of a sudden her best friends are keeping secrets from her and avoiding spending time with her after school. Sayaka isn't confiding in her, so it makes sense that the ultimatum sounded a little bit harsh.

Kyubey is increasingly frightening. He induced the pain of taking a spear through the chest just by touching Sayaka's soul gem. I get the feeling that he's getting more and more exasperated with this batch of Puella Magi, who aren't just doing their jobs but are behaving unpredictably and asking so many questions. There was a definite edge of irritation in his voice this episode. I wonder what it would take to get Kyubey REALLY angry, and what he would do if that happened. What constrains Kyubey's behavior? Does he answer to a higher power, or does he merely choose to adhere to a code of conduct?

And going back to the visuals, I loved the way they told the story of Kyouko's wish. By keeping it so stylized, they communicate more of the raw emotion of the story. The fact that Kyubey was able to control hundreds of people and influence their thoughts... it's pretty chilling. Sayaka's wish seems so small in comparison. What's to keep someone from wishing for thousands of people under their control? Instant army.

[Ryllharu]

I gained a bit of sympathy for Kyouko after her story. I felt it was perfectly explainable why she acts the way she does now. Her wish backfired on her so utterly. Her miracle was for the sake of another just like Sayaka's, and everything was going well until her beneficiary found out. Worse still, he actually murdered the rest of the family and the only reason she survived is because she was a Puella Magi. Of course she would start thinking only selfishly. She's bound to Kyubey's yoke and she doesn't have anything to show for it, in fact, she has less than she ever had. Kyouko's lines in episode 6, "The point of magic is making your wishes come true! Nothing good happens if you use it for someone else!" certainly have a lot more weight to them now. It wasn't some philosophical difference, it was a warning made in good faith. Compare her to Mami, who at least was alive again (assuming she would have died, but Kyubey supposedly never lies).

I had thought that she just felt bad for Sayaka and any other girls after finding out the truth, but I wonder if she would have told Sayaka eventually merely after finding out about the terms of her wish. It certainly made more sense that Kyouko told her she should use her magic to make him dependent on her once more. Sure enough, someone intends to steal him from her. Kyouko even offered to use her own magic to do it for Sayaka.

I liked that both Kyouko was just as shocked at Sayaka descending into reckless madness. Deep down I think she is a good person (she did try to rescue her and help her out) despite how selfish she is on the outside. I think she sympathized with Sayaka on some level. Sayaka was about to end up on the same path that Kyouko did, and Kyouko probably didn't want to see that happen to another person. I suspect she still believes in the message her father preached, common sense and honesty and all that.

As for the apples, I'm a little disappointed that Sayaka didn't make the connection. Kyouko is careful about wasting food because she has to use magic to steal it. Her whole family is dead, who else is going to look after her? I don't think Kyouko wants to do what she does, she merely accepts that she has no choice, and believes that each piece is precious. Especially so now that she knows her soul is on the line each time she uses magic just to feed herself.

I can't blame Hitomi. She knew Sayaka visited him every day in the hospital. She knows Sayaka loves him, but it isn't fair of Sayaka to silently lay claim to him and never try to confess, keeping everything in limbo. If Sayaka is just going to squander what she only might have...why shouldn't Hitomi also have that chance? It only makes things seem worse because Hitomi doesn't even know about Puella Magi and Sayaka's wish. To her, it only looks like Sayaka is keeping him all to herself.

[Buffalobiian]

It certainly made more sense that Kyouko told her she should use her magic to make him dependent on her once more. Sure enough, someone intends to steal him from her. Kyouko even offered to use her own magic to do it for Sayaka.

I thought she said "Sayaka should have wished for the guy to become dependant on her", then decided that she'd hack off his arms and legs so he won't leave her. So far, it hasn't occurred to me that Puella Magi are capable of much else other than combat magic.


As for the apples, I'm a little disappointed that Sayaka didn't make the connection. Kyouko is careful about wasting food because she has to use magic to steal it. Her whole family is dead, who else is going to look after her? I don't think Kyouko wants to do what she does, she merely accepts that she has no choice, and believes that each piece is precious. Especially so now that she knows her soul is on the line each time she uses magic just to feed herself.

I took a shallower reading to that, and concluded that Kyouko feels that way about food because she was poor once (and still is?)

[Archangel]

I took a shallower reading to that, and concluded that Kyouko feels that way about food because she was poor once (and still is?)

Color me shallow but that was what i figured as well

Poor Ryll, reduced to overthink every single aspect of the episode in order to compete with Kitty's wall of text :(

[Ryllharu]

Poor Ryll, reduced to overthink every single aspect of the episode in order to compete with Kitty's wall of text :(
A pity you think on such a superficial level.

This series is loaded with allegory.

[KitKat]

I took a shallower reading to that, and concluded that Kyouko feels that way about food because she was poor once (and still is?)

I think there are elements of both. I don't know if any of you have grandparents who went through the great depression, but living through situations like that ingrain habits into people that they never get rid of. My grandma will save everything and re-use it. She won't throw out anything until it's literally falling apart and has been fixed or patched several times. Definitely Kyouko still carries that mentality of poverty around with her. After all, she lost everything. No matter how much material wealth she gets, it won't deal with her past for her and she will still live out of that spirit of poverty. But being a Puella Magi factors into it too, because her magic is limited, and she doesn't have the luxury of a dinner on the table when she gets home, or even any home to speak of. I'm not sure how accomplished a thief she is, but I'll bet she's forced to use her magic on a day-to-day basis just to survive, and every time she does that, she brings herself closer to .... whatever it is that happens when your soul gem goes out, which no one has talked about yet, but I'm sure is very bad, even more so now that we know it contains everything that makes up the essence of the person. I can see why she wouldn't want to waste any food that she steals, because once it's gone, she'll have to steal some more, and have to hunt more witches just to compensate for being able to survive.

[Kraco]

If the soul gem only darkens when magic is used, can a person live like a normal human if she never uses magic at all? Perhaps it's for that purpose Kyubey can summon pain from the gem. To give a healthy kick if the puella magi becomes too lazy...

Perhaps Madoka becomes a magi by wishing Sayaka to get her soul back... I think Kyubey would agree since it was Madoka he wanted in the first place. And I doubt Madoka can watch Sayaka's breakdown for much longer.

[Ryllharu]

I can't but only see Madoka's miracle being something far more grand. Like wishing that all the girls get their souls back. But it doesn't really fit with the framework of the agreement, and it would leave Madoka being the only magical girl. Either way, I would guess her wish would be something that would end all of this. Maybe even something that as a side benefit would bring back Mami as well.

That would be a bit too much of a Sunrise ending though...as much as I would like Mami back, it's probably better off she stay dead.

[rgrintz]

^^^^
We keep saying she's dead, but is that really true. Her head got bitten off but her soul gem was still intact, so would she still be alive in the soul gem? just a thought.

[Archangel]

The possibility is there but it would feel incredibly cheap to me, better off she stays eaten.

[Buffalobiian]

^^^^
We keep saying she's dead, but is that really true. Her head got bitten off but her soul gem was still intact

Was it?
.

[miyama_ryu]

Didn't Mami wear her soul gem as her hair pin?

[David75]

seems so

While searching for the answer, I found this:
https://yunam0n.wordpress.com/tag/puella-magi-madoka-magica/

Me needs strongly :cool:

[RyougaZell]

GG Episode 8 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=196096)

[Buffalobiian]

Wow.. for a good half of the episode I thought Homura was the future Madoka coming back to change her fate, not unlike another highly acclaimed series by GW members. But if that was the case, Kyubey would recognise such godly powers that Madoka should have been capable of.

Time manipulation doesn't explain how you can pull grenades and silenced pistols (machine pistol?) out like that. Mami was so wrong thinking she could kill Homura. Those muskets wouldn't stand a chance. Even if they did, Homura would just one-up her with a flash bang.

[Kraco]

I'm not yet so sure Homura is overly powerful. But she's far more experienced and knowledgeable than any other magical girl we have seen so far for sure. In fact she might know than than whatever is behind Kyubey of some things. Pistols and hand grenades don't yet prove a whole lot in my opinion.

I suppose Madoka is a key to the grand plan of the witch faction and Homura's main concern is, indeed, to stop Madoka from becoming one. Though Kyebey could be right and there's no way Madoka can succeed in that. She might be better off allowing Madoka to become one and use the magnificent powers to alter the future instead of trying to stop it. Sayaka becoming a witch likely is a step toward the ruination that created the future Homura is attempting to prevent. All in all, though, Homura is too awkward to really affect Madoka or anybody through talk alone. Kind of like Tenshi from Angel Beats.

[Xelbair]

This ep clarified some things, but one of most important ones for me was how KB was called by Homura - Incubator. It 'starts' few more questions - was she referring to Witches(they 'grow' from Mahou Shoujo)...or to the something inside KB, possibly a fusion of witches(it ate grief seeds).

Also if we assume that KB does not lie(he didn't lie up till now) things he said about Madoka's 'Power level' are very interesting, yet looking at her emotional state it could be dangerous for her to turn into mahou shoujo... also her spells could take so much power that she would instantly turn into witch...which would be bad(even if we assume that witches are weaker than mahou shoujo)

[Archangel]

I'm somewhat convinced Homura's power involves time manipulation of some sort, though that still doesn't explain the explosive way she killed Charllote
+1 for Archie

That had to be the greatest episode yet, it would have been perfect if Sayaka had used her powers to kill the 2 lovebirds instead of just those 2 nobodies.

Homura's identity... first i went back to episode 1 to confirm she didn't have a little sister or something but it was just a brother with brown hair. Her mother kind of looks like Homura but that might just be a stretch from my part.

The incubator? Is that relating to the fact that he devours Grief Seeds or that he creates witches? Regardless, it felt good to see KB full of holes even if the whole thing was utterly meaningless. The fucking critter ate himself... that's a whole new level of fucked up.

The creation of witches was pretty predictable but it was a powerful scene nonetheless, especially with KB mocking them for their stupidity afterwards. As right he should by the way, i still stand that those kids didn't ask any of the right questions before getting themselves into this mess.

[Ryllharu]

@Arch: It's easy to figure out the way she killed the witch Charlotte so quickly now. The same why she got Kyouko with a flashbang. She jumped inside, stopped time, pulled a bunch of grenades which began to count down, and then allowed time to resume, where they set them off in quick succession. Pretty clever use of time mechanics, which also let her pelt Kyubey with a full magazine in an instant.

I agree with Kraco, I'm not certain she is all that powerful, but her time magic certainly allows her to make up that gap. Now that Kyubey knows the nature of her power, she could be in grave danger.


The way Homura reacted, "Why are you always sacrificing yourself?", "Think about the people who care about you," and "What about everyone who is trying to protect you?" and the very emotional way she delivered it leads me to believe she is someone very close to Madoka. Possibly Madoka's daughter. If she's not from this timestream, she could really be anyone closely associated with Madoka. I can't really see her being an alternative version of Madoka's mother, and that response was way too emotional to just be a really close friend or yuri lover.

[Archangel]

I know Ryll, but while the rest of the Magical Girls have had only 1 power Homura seems to have 2 in the form of granades and power manipulation. How she managed that is probably another part of her mystery.

As for her identity I reached that conclusion as well and immediately thought of every family members available, i feel it would be the ultimate stroke of genius if Shaft had managed to insert Homura's time divergent persona somewhere in the show without anyone of us noticing.

[Ryllharu]

Only one power? Mami displayed more than her flintlock crystallock rifles. She bound Houmra in chain-ribbons. She used them as shields as well to protect Madoka.

Kyouko likely has a power in addition to her weapon as well.

[Archangel]

Support skills don't count

[Ryllharu]

So Homura only has one power just like the rest of the girls. Time manipulation isn't an offensive skill in and of itself.

[Kraco]

For all we know, Homura is a battle scarred veteran from a devastated word (time). Now back in time she could have done terminators and first acquired a bunch of gear (no sweat with magical girl powers). Her actual support skill could be to summon them somehow from whatever time pocket she keeps them in.

[Archangel]

For all we know, Homura is a battle scarred veteran from a devastated word (time). Now back in time she could have done terminators and first acquired a bunch of gear (no sweat with magical girl powers). Her actual support skill could be to summon them somehow from whatever time pocket she keeps them in.
See, now this makes sense!

[animus]

Homura still could've easily saved Mami. What a bitch.

[Buffalobiian]

Homura still could've easily saved Mami. What a bitch.

She was tied up. This episode showed she can't do anything if she's physically held.

Kyouko let go because she saw a grenade come. Ribbons have no such sense of self preservation.

[RyougaZell]

I only know one thing. There are 4 episodes left and Madoka hasn't turned into the Puella Magi as the series title states. Awesome :D

[David75]

Homura is from the future, so she knows when, why and how the Walpurgis night will start.
I'm betting the key is Madoka. Incubator stated multiple times Madoka as an incredible latent power, and in that ep he even stated she'd be God like. Since he also stated at the end of the ep that Magical girls are baby witches, that means he feels Madoka will be an incredibly powerful witch, devastating the town or worse... hence the Walpurgis night.

Now, I'm also willing to know who Homura is.

[KitKat]

Yes, as we all suspected, witches are Puella Magi gone bad. It's interesting, I've been re-watching the beginning of this series with my sister and at the beginning Kyubey says to them something to the effect of, "If Puella Magi are made from wishes, then witches are made from curses." Very cool to see that play out here where Sayaka effectively cursing herself sped up her transformation.

As for Homura, perhaps her wish was to control time. Offensive abilities as a Puella Magi seem to be separate, and randomly assigned to specific girls. Though as we saw in Sayaka's case, the type of wish granted also affects abilities. So perhaps Homura just wished to go back in time to before Kyubey contacted Madoka, and the time-manipulation abilities were a side-effect of the wish she made.

[shinta|hikari]

Very good speculation. I tend to agree.

[Buffalobiian]

gg - Episode 09 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=197645)

[Ryllharu]

I wasn't going to suggest a paradox before between Madoka's wish and Kyubey's existence before this episode (I certainly thought about it, since "anything" they want is supposedly granted) but now that we know what we know about its kind, there is a possibility that it just might work.

Before, I assumed that Kyubey was a magical, singular entity. Now we've learned that it is only a part of a highly advanced alien race (which disappointed me to be honest). Their explanation didn't really matter, though I did smirk when it said that girls in adolescence have the highest potential energy once they lose themselves. They figured out a way to convert the hormone-driven emotions of distressed teen girls into energy...very clever.

Anyway, now that I know Kyubey isn't Mephistopheles, and likely isn't one of a kind, would it be possible for Madoka's wish to be, "I wish that you [Kyubey] never existed."? If it fulfilled her wish in order to achieve its ultimate goal of having her fall onto the path of becoming the strongest witch (yielding the highest energy), would Madoka be able to reverse the fortunes of all the girls she's met so far? Sayaka wouldn't be dead, Kyoko would be poor but somewhat happy. Mami might still be dead (assuming the accident wasn't caused by Kyubey) and it's also quite possible Homura would cease to exist as she currently does.

I could see Madoka tricking Kyubey into undoing itself out of its unrelenting greed for her. Would that kind of paradox even resolve itself? It might not even work, or would another of Kyubey's kind merely take up the banner?

[shinta|hikari]

What I really liked is how Madoka interpreted cold logic and lack of emotions as evil, and treated it as an enemy, despite her kind nature.

[Buffalobiian]

What I really liked is how Madoka interpreted cold logic and lack of emotions as evil, and treated it as an enemy, despite her kind nature.

Wasn't quite as good as "If you feel like dying for this universe, just call us."

I don't know what to think of Walpurgis Night now. It doesn't seem like it's KB turning into a monster.

[shinta|hikari]

What if the super strong witch is Madoka from the future? Just a random thought.

Kyubey is easily my favorite character in this show, followed by Homura.

I love her name, voice, character type (reminds me a lot of Chikane from KannaMiko, the strong yuri vibes help), power, and design. This is surprising because despite all this I still like the cold logical avatar more. I don't see him as evil at all. Everything he says and does makes sense.

I hate Madoka right now, but she may turn that around if she becomes really bad ass after becoming a puella magi.

I actually like the entropy explanation. I think it's pretty original.

[Buffalobiian]

I hate Madoka right now

Nothing showed that this episode than the train scene "You're kidding, right?"

Does it look like she's fucking kidding?


Kyubey is easily my favorite character in this show, followed by Homura.They're the two most logical beings in the show to date. Just like how Homura didn't lash out at KB when he one-upped her by sending Kyoko to her death. There's no point.

Kyoko was cool when she was nice, but not overly so. I couldn't like her as much when she went so far for Sayaka, though it's hard to say whether it's because of Sayaka rather than Kyoko herself.

To top it all off, the witch looked just like a big, ugly version of Sayaka.


I actually like the entropy explanation. I think it's pretty original.

Did this show just say the "Law of Conservation of Energy" is wrong in not one, but two ways? XD

[Board of Command]

Madoka will probably become a mahou shoujo to help Homura defeat Walpurgis, and then turn into Walpurgis, herself, once she's stricken by some surge of negative emotions. It would be an ironic turn of events, but I can see Kyubey talking Madoka into doing it. She already lost Sayaka and Kyoko, so I can see her finally accepting the contract in order to save Homura. The timing for Walpurgis is all too perfect.

[Ryllharu]

What if the super strong witch is Madoka from the future? Just a random thought.
I thought we were under that assumption for a while now. If Walpurgis is supposed to be an unbelievably strong witch, one that even two puella magic will have difficulty beating, who else could it be? Homura knows everything about Walpurgis already, and knows too much about Madoka's fate.

Kyubey is quite adamant about making sure Madoka has no option to join him if she wants to save Homura, and then fall into despair afterward.

It also wouldn't be that Walpurgis will appear "here" in the city, it is probably more of a matter that Homura came through to the past there, and so will Walpurgis.

[Archangel]

I'm not all that convinced that Walpurgis is dark Madoka. We've already seen it and its world doesn't seem Madoka related at all even though, as we've been shown in this week's episode, the world and weaponry used by the witch are related to the puella magi herself.

Here's another theory i'm throwing out there, what if Madoka's wish was to turn it all back to the way it was before? That would explain that dream sequence we experienced in the first episode, it would fit the troll of Madoka never actually becoming a mahou shoujo and it sounds just like something she would wish for. KB, being the analytical fucker that he is, wouldn't consider that a human would be stupid enough to wish herself into a endless eight out of her own will.

As for how Homura came to be... maybe from some other alternative timeline that was left to deal with Walpurgis? Maybe she would even be the one to tell her young self of the incubator conspiracy.


Before, I assumed that Kyubey was a magical, singular entity. Now we've learned that it is only a part of a highly advanced alien race (which disappointed me to be honest). Their explanation didn't really matter, though I did smirk when it said that girls in adolescence have the highest potential energy once they lose themselves. They figured out a way to convert the hormone-driven emotions of distressed teen girls into energy...very clever.

You know what? I was too.

Madoka has always been a sort of theatrical fantasy series, that explanation sounded too raw and rational for a show like this. It lacked the allegorical qualities I've grown used to love on this show.

[Ryllharu]

I'm not all that convinced that Walpurgis is dark Madoka. We've already seen it and its world doesn't seem Madoka related at all even though, as we've been shown in this week's episode, the world and weaponry used by the witch are related to the puella magi herself.Let me propose this then. How much do we really know about Madoka? We know she cares deeply for her friends, is willing to sacrifice herself for others at a moment's notice, loves her family and idolizes her mother...and that's about it. We don't know what her hobbies are, we don't know what inanimate things she treasures (Sayaka and music, Mami and tea, Kyoko and food), and we don't know what Madoka's weapon would be because she hasn't established a contract with Kyubey. So I think it is very difficult to say what Madoka's witch-space would even be like. Madoka is so selfless she may never think about herself for a single moment. They certainly haven't shown her to be that way so far. She couldn't even think about what she would wish for. If Mami hadn't died, she probably would have gone for just a simple cake. She was thinking of helping Mami first, what she would get out of it never even occurred to her.

Who is to say that Walpurgis from the series opening dream even has a space? Perhaps it is so deeply rooted in the world that surrounds it (like Madoka is) that the world is its space. Or at the least a very close reflection of it.


Madoka has always been a sort of theatrical fantasy series, that explanation sounded too raw and rational for a show like this. It lacked the allegorical qualities I've grown used to love on this show.Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Archangel]

But we do know what weapon she uses ( would use ), the concept art of her puella persona has her wielding a bow (http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=character&charid=24746)

[Ryllharu]

Concept art isn't a reliable source, but until she does make the contract, we can assume you're correct.

However, we only ever saw a silhouette of Walpurgis, the cogs on her backside, and her aura. It's not quite as obvious as Sayaka was.

EDIT:

I take that back. Knowing that Madoka's weapon might be a bow could very well prove that Madoka is Walpurgis Night. As Homura approaches Walpurgis, she is attacked by beam like projectiles that curve. Very likely magic arrows.

[MasterOfMoogles]

I'm actually wondering if Homura has done this more than once.
She could be just continuously going back in time, and failing every time, time-loop style. That would actually partly explain why she doesn't bother to tell them exactly what is going on.

[miyama_ryu]

Here's another theory i'm throwing out there, what if Madoka's wish was to turn it all back to the way it was before? That would explain that dream sequence we experienced in the first episode, it would fit the troll of Madoka never actually becoming a mahou shoujo and it sounds just like something she would wish for. KB, being the analytical fucker that he is, wouldn't consider that a human would be stupid enough to wish herself into a endless eight out of her own will.

I think you are imagining QB to be way more powerful than he actually is. You have to keep in mind that he is an alien and not a Godly entity. Using advanced technology to sure a boy's arm? Sure. Time looping an entire planet? I would think not considering they can't even deal with mere thermodynamics.

[shinta|hikari]

But Kyubey himself said that Madoka had unimaginable powers that could cause miracles that are beyond reason and by consequence have no logical limits. If it was Madoka's power that caused the loop, even if it was under Kyubey's guidance, it would be perfectly believable.

[miyama_ryu]

Ok I guess you have a point, since MG's powers do according to QB fall outside normal reasoning. So anything can in theory be possible. But I do hold onto the hope that this wonderful series won't end with a deus ex machina ending.

[animus]

I liked how the common cliche/trope of calling out someone back to reality because you're close with them didn't work and backfired horribly. That cliche usually works 99 times out of 100 in anime.

[Archangel]

I liked how the common cliche/trope of calling out someone back to reality because you're close with them didn't work and backfired horribly. That cliche usually works 99 times out of 100 in anime.

I totally saw it coming though. I think, in this case, the cliché would have been the twist.

[Buffalobiian]

I totally saw it coming though. I think, in this case, the cliché would have been the twist.

I didn't see the self-destruct though. Must each and every entity be rigged with a self-sacrificing attack?

Couldn't she hug the big fellow and drive a spear through them both or something?

[Archangel]

Couldn't she hug the big fellow and drive a spear through them both or something?

Like they're not already getting enough heat for the gore as it is

[Buffalobiian]

Like they're not already getting enough heat for the gore as it is

Getting heat for gore is stupid. The only people who should be complaining are parents who dropped this show in their little girl's lap thinking it was another staple Mahou Shoujo.

Don't Japanese media have maturity warnings?

[Archangel]

The commercialize anime with tits and implied sex everywhere and have the gall to call it a shounen, what do you think?

[Buffalobiian]

The commercialize anime with tits and implied sex everywhere and have the gall to call it a shounen, what do you think?
Well no one's complaining about the tits are they? Maybe in Japan, tits are fine, but gore is not. That depends on their perception on what is mature content and what isn't. Whatever that value is, it should be reflected in the classification ratings.

[miyama_ryu]

There can't be a value system of any society where tits are worse than little girls dying, surely!

[Kraco]

The background story with alien civilizations and entropy sounded so weak that I'm more likely to believe it's an alien reality show and the entropy thing is just an excuse to be given to humans finding out too much. Unless the aliens are from a very distant future where the universe has already run out of matter and energy and they travel back in time in order to fix the negative development. In that case they could even be the decendants of humans themselves.

Whatever the case, I'm certainly looking forward to Madoka's wish. She's so passive that it's hard to believe she could come up with anything that could have even remote possibilities of tricking Kyubey, so if she manages to undo anything, it will be fool's luck.

[David75]

So Kyubey=Nagato? (sentient entity and so on...)
God...

So basically, those aliens think they do not have enough Entropy and found a burst of it when they turn preteen girls from Majou shoujo to witch. Wicked idea, to say the least.

It's true that a world running out of entropy is a dead world, as it energy exchanges can't happen anymore. But that world is already dead, being in the utmost level of disorder it can achieve.
After that, I admitt I do not clearly see how you can regenerate levels of Entropy in the Universe. But I guess we need not discussing this.

Another point is time travel. It is said to be impossible as it goes against the second law of thermodynamics as it means decreasing the Entropy of a system without an increase elswhere. So Homura shouldn't be there, if the asumption she comes from the future is correct.

A strange show, where you can rely on nothing you see, believe or take for granted. I can not really say I enjoy it, rather I'm curious for what they have in store for us and that keeps me watching.

[Buffalobiian]

gg - Episode 10 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=199157)

[Archangel]

Someone's gonna learn to enjoy Madoka Box...

[Ryllharu]

Someone's gonna learn to enjoy Madoka Box...Yeah, yeah. I wasn't right, but I wasn't all that far off either. Madoka has thus far been destined to become a witch on the day Walpurgis appears...pretty much no matter the circumstances. I'll take the horrible horrible medicine all the same. It's not often a series gets me guessing wrong this often.

I suppose I should have also seen Homura's original personality coming. Characters that end up that cold are usually the result of repeated traumas. Quite amusing that in the present timeline, Homura and Madoka are practically opposites from when Homura first met Madoka. Madoka the hardened veteran, and Homura the shy, weepy introvert.

They mushed this all into a single episode, but I found it fascinating how many things stayed constants as Homura changed. Sayaka (when present) always fell into witchdom first, Kyouko always felt pity for Sayaka, Mami was filled with inevitable mistrust, and Madoka consistently put herself last.

Perhaps Madoka's ultimate, world-destroying witch form is a cruel reflection of her normal personality. She's so selfless all the time, that she becomes the ultimate being of selfishness.

[shinta|hikari]

Mami went nuts. I didn't expect her sense of justice to bend so much with just the revelation that they turn into witches. I thought her main issue was being alone? I liked it all the same though.

I pity Madoka because she isn't emo like the rest of them. She really is selfless and kind, but has the power to shoulder so much, and is forced to do so for the same reason. In a sense, Homura and Madoka are alike, only Madoka has innate strength (of character, will and actual magic), while Homura earned hers through repetition.

I hated Sayaka before, but I hate her even more now. This is mainly because we get to see the contrast between her selfishness compared to Homura's sacrifice in this episode.

[Ryllharu]

Mami went nuts. I didn't expect her sense of justice to bend so much with just the revelation that they turn into witches. I thought her main issue was being alone? I liked it all the same though.
In Mami's defense, she (as far as we know) is consistently forced to use her wish to save herself from dying. Then she finds out that in doing so, she's enslaved herself into becoming something worse than simply dying, becoming a monster that kills others. That is a fate completely opposed to her sense of justice, helping others as much as possible, so they'd never have to experience a fate like her own.

I can't say I'm really surprised she'd crack.

Her loneliness may be a side effect of what Homura has been doing. Mami gets to be a puella magi for some time, but Madoka joins her...just because. Also fairly early on from what we can infer from this episode. Homura is keeping that from happening, which left Mami all by herself.


note: I loved the scene with Madoka hugging Homura and drumming her feet after Homura's debut battle. So cute~! That said, a peppy Madoka is a bit...weird. I'm so used to her being filled with doubt and being introspective.

[shinta|hikari]

I am not really belittling the impact the revelation can have on Mami, especially since her wish is probably the most pointless if you take things into consideration, but I just thought that with her allies she would be able to recover. Killing them off, well, came as a surprise from someone who hated being alone.

I loved that scene by the way. The way their eyes died and the body just fell limp was really cool and disturbing.

[Buffalobiian]

One of my favourite parts (of the many many favourite parts) was where we now know Homura isn't just doing this because she wants to, but because Madoka wants her to. Overall it may be a minor point, but it really drives it home that she knows Madoka really will regret it and isn't just some imagined conclusion that Homura thought would be the best for them.

This show's one of the rare ones that keep me hooked with plot without the majority of my enjoyment stemming from a single character. My liking for the girls (characters) has also been constantly shifting, which also doesn't happen very often. I like Mami all the way to her death, then it was Kyoko until she went soft for Sayaka, followed by Homuro and now maybe even Madoka.

They didn't really imply it or anything, but to me this repeat would be the first one where Madoka has any recollection of previous timelines. It might not mean anything since she's passing it off as a dream though.

This "final method" can mean nothing other than killing Madoka.

[shinta|hikari]

Or sacrificing herself (Homura) to save Madoka. After all, one thing consistent with all the cycles is Homura's survival.

About your point on Madoka wanting to be saved, I don't think it's a minor point at all. Wanting to be saved and being selfishly "helped" by someone who thinks they know better are completely different things. Homura is just awesome. I hated her braided look though. Still it emphasizes her cool look now so all is well.

AND Thank God they finally brought attention to Homura's bad ass name. Definitely one of my favorite names ever. I realize that unique names are almost necessary for me to like a character (e.g. C.C., Senjougahara, Saber, Lafiel, and Homura). I now realize that most of those are fairly masculine or at least androgynous.

[RyougaZell]

God... if before this episode I loved this series... this episode has made it into one of my all time favorites. F-amazing episode. The portrayal of Homura's feelings hit hard... before now I was indifferent to her... now Im... wow...

My favorite scene was when they learnt about Sayaka's destiny and Mami killed Kyouko... only to be killed by Madoka. I never expected Madoka to kill Mami.

Just... wow...

[Buffalobiian]

Or sacrificing herself (Homura) to save Madoka. After all, one thing consistent with all the cycles is Homura's survival.

True enough. I forgot about that. If she's not going to kill Madoka though, she'll still have to put her out of commission. Homura was prepared to die in her latest fights - Madoka keeps jumping in to stop her.


About your point on Madoka wanting to be saved, I don't think it's a minor point at all. Wanting to be saved and being selfishly "helped" by someone who thinks they know better are completely different things.Completely different indeed. I meant "overall" in that in the current timeline it doesn't really matter since Madoka doesn't know about it and Homura's keeping it all to herself.


Homura is just awesome. I hated her braided look though. Totally.


AND Thank God they finally brought attention to Homura's bad ass name. Definitely one of my favorite names ever. I realize that unique names are almost necessary for me to like a character (e.g. C.C., Senjougahara, Saber, Lafiel, and Homura). I now realize that most of those are fairly masculine or at least androgynous.Shinta likes women with manly names. XD

[RyougaZell]

Maybe Shinta likes his girls to beat him?

Ejem... anyway...

So I was checking the updated opening with Kyoko and Homura at the tower alongside Madoka, Sayaka and Mami and saw something that has always been there and I never noticed...

What's with the black cat on Sayaka's lap? Anti-Kyubei?

[shinta|hikari]

Maybe Shinta likes his girls to beat him?

What? From the 5 I mentioned, only 1 physically hurt her partner, and that was before they even knew each other.

Training doesn't count.

Or did you mean that girls with manly names beat up their partners? In that case... what?

[Ryllharu]

...saw something that has always been there and I never noticed...
What's with the black cat on Sayaka's lap? Anti-Kyubei?I had always thought it was a jab at Sailor Moon or any of the other prior magical girl shows, the kind of pet/partner/advisor they tend to have. Kyubey has been filling that role so far, twisting it to new terrible directions of course.

We don't know what Madoka's wish was as Homura was falling, we only saw the result of her becoming the ultimate witch. Maybe this timeline she'll wish for something different. Maybe Madoka's new wish will be for none of this to happen, rendering Kyubey a tiny kitten.

[KitKat]

Dang, that episode was just... so beautifully executed. Too many shows try to give an excess of information before they've given the viewers a chance to care about the characters. The way they revisited familiar scenes and showed the slow progression of Homura becoming who she is now... so heart-wrenching. Everything makes so much sense now. I was wondering why Homura didn't try to tell the girls earlier about becoming witches, but now we know she already tried it and it didn't work. And I also thought it was strange before why she was so unaffected by Mami's death, as well as Kyouko and Sayaka's deaths. But I suppose seeing those deaths again and again would cause someone to be desensitized to it.

I bet Homura really is the weakest of the Puella Magi in terms of actual power. The only reason she can take on Mami or Kyouko is because they trained her, and in addition she must by now be familiar with all the witches that appear prior to Walpurgis so she can easily defeat them. Hence her warning to Mami that "this one is different". So, from what I can see, her Puella weapon is her grenades, and her power has 2 uses: the first to stop time for a short stretch (the way they showed it ticking like that looks like there's a finite limit on it) and the second to employ a "general reset" back to before she met Madoka. This seems to give her just enough time to take out Kyubey before his first contact with Madoka.

So even though Kyubey grants Homura's wish, he himself is unaware of what happens each time Homura sets back the clock. This gives her the advantage she needs to predict his actions and kill him. However, if she tips her hand too soon, she loses much of that advantage, so we've seen her being very closed with her information this time around. And although she is focused solely on saving Madoka, we've learned that the survival of the whole earth could hinge upon this sequence of events. Kyubey pretty much admitted that it wouldn't take Madoka long as a witch to destroy it all, but that he didn't really care because he'd collected an excess of energy.

I love Madoka during this sequence of events. We really see the strength of her character here that we've only had small glimpses of thus far. I was blown away when she destroyed Mami's soul gem. That takes a resolve and decisiveness few people would have, and she made the decision in a split second. I also loved when she uses the grief seed at the end of one of the timelines to cleanse Homura's gem. I wonder.... if you can do that to someone else's gem with a grief seed, could you do it with your own soul gem and speed up your process of becoming a witch by cleansing their gem for them?

I agree that Madoka's wish is probably the biggest wild card left in this show. Since Madoka doesn't have anything already in her circumstances compelling her to make a wish, then her wish must be very dependent on this sequence of events, and as Homura changes those events, it likely changes Madoka's wish.

[shinta|hikari]

I bet Homura really is the weakest of the Puella Magi in terms of actual power. The only reason she can take on Mami or Kyouko is because they trained her,

I disagree on this point. Even Mami said that Homura's power was incredible, but she didn't know how to use it. Homura is probably the strongest Puella Magi if it is a 1 on 1 duel against another Puella Magi. She can simply stop time and destroy the soul gem, assuming of course she knows that is the weakness. Unlike witches, it does not take much to kill a puella magi if one aims correctly, as this episode showed. The enemy would not stand a chance, even without the guns, bombs, fancy moves, etc.

Unless you mean simple destructive power, in which case I agree about her being the weakest, but she can still kill Mami or Kyouko easily.

[RyougaZell]

I wonder if Madoka will make a wish in the end in the same fashion of Homura's... to reset their meeting creating an enormous paradox or something

[Archangel]

I'm not all that convinced that Walpurgis is dark Madoka. We've already seen it and its world doesn't seem Madoka related at all even though, as we've been shown in this week's episode, the world and weaponry used by the witch are related to the puella magi herself.

Here's another theory i'm throwing out there, what if Madoka's wish was to turn it all back to the way it was before? That would explain that dream sequence we experienced in the first episode, it would fit the troll of Madoka never actually becoming a mahou shoujo and it sounds just like something she would wish for. KB, being the analytical fucker that he is, wouldn't consider that a human would be stupid enough to wish herself into a endless eight out of her own will.

As for how Homura came to be... maybe from some other alternative timeline that was left to deal with Walpurgis? Maybe she would even be the one to tell her young self of the incubator conspiracy.

I'd just like to point out i called a healthy 70% of what went down on this week's episode, i was just wrong to focus on Madoka when Homura was the one with the time shifting powers. Which is not to say the rest might not also come true, only time will tell.

[Ryllharu]

So, from what I can see, her Puella weapon is her grenades, and her power has 2 uses: the first to stop time for a short stretch (the way they showed it ticking like that looks like there's a finite limit on it) and the second to employ a "general reset" back to before she met Madoka.It's more appropriate to say that Homura doesn't have a weapon at all. She only has the time-stop shield/watch. She started using a golf driver. The grenades are home-made, she was looking up how to make them on the computer in the very next scene, and loaded them on her desk. The shield seems to have a considerable "magic-bag" capacity as well. If her shield's time-stop does have a finite limit, isn't easy to tell what it is, which brings me to the next point.


I bet Homura really is the weakest of the Puella Magi in terms of actual power. The only reason she can take on Mami or Kyouko is because they trained her, and in addition she must by now be familiar with all the witches that appear prior to Walpurgis so she can easily defeat them.
I disagree on this point. Even Mami said that Homura's power was incredible, but she didn't know how to use it. Homura is probably the strongest Puella Magi if it is a 1 on 1 duel against another Puella Magi. She can simply stop time and destroy the soul gem, assuming of course she knows that is the weakness. Unlike witches, it does not take much to kill a puella magi if one aims correctly, as this episode showed. The enemy would not stand a chance, even without the guns, bombs, fancy moves, etc.

Unless you mean simple destructive power, in which case I agree about her being the weakest, but she can still kill Mami or Kyouko easily.Given the application of her power, Homura is both the weakest and the strongest of all. If her shield/watch does have a time limit, it is incredibly long. She barely knew how to hit things with a golf driver (stumbling on the first swing) and then she had time to pelt it repeatedly, getting exhausted because she was out of shape and weak, but the thing was ultimately trashed. Now that she uses guns and grenades (even a minigun!), in that long amount of time, she can do unspeakable damage to her target. She normally only unloads one clip or lobs one grenade. But imagine if she stopped time, walked up to them and hit them with a hammer/golf driver/katana, fired the minigun, and then threw a grenade. Nothing could possibly survive that.

If her arsenal was large enough, I don't think she would even have that much trouble killing witch-Madoka.

[shinta|hikari]

Unless witch-madoka is big enough to be practically invulnerable and had absurd regeneration. I'm betting she has both.

[KitKat]

Given the application of her power, Homura is both the weakest and the strongest of all. If her shield/watch does have a time limit, it is incredibly long. She barely knew how to hit things with a golf driver (stumbling on the first swing) and then she had time to pelt it repeatedly, getting exhausted because she was out of shape and weak, but the thing was ultimately trashed. Now that she uses guns and grenades (even a minigun!), in that long amount of time, she can do unspeakable damage to her target. She normally only unloads one clip or lobs one grenade. But imagine if she stopped time, walked up to them and hit them with a hammer/golf driver/katana, fired the minigun, and then threw a grenade. Nothing could possibly survive that.

If her arsenal was large enough, I don't think she would even have that much trouble killing witch-Madoka.

Oh, good catch with the home-made grenades. But let's not forget that in the last iteration of events, Homura was unable to defeat the Walpurgis night, whereas Madoka killed it in a single hit. Even when the girls were working together, they suffered casualties. It requires so much magic power to defeat that the girls who are left are either dying or have their gems so tainted that they can't go back. I'm still a bit confused how Madoka could be defeated by the Walpurgis so many times, and yet in the time when she becomes a Puella Magi at the last minute she deals with it quickly. Maybe her wish itself is to defeat it, in that case?

[Buffalobiian]

Maybe her wish itself is to defeat it, in that case?

I think so.

[shinta|hikari]

If that is so, why did Madoka become a witch in that cycle? Does it mean that by simply defeating the witch of walpurgisnacht, the ones who defeat it automatically become the next one?

[RyougaZell]

Maybe she just used too much energy and thus her Soul Gem couldn't make it.

[shinta|hikari]

So even that one shot took all her energy? Then it wasn't an easy battle at all. Was Madoka weaker in the first few cycles? Or did she just have better back up (Homura) in the ones where she beat the walpurgis night?

[Buffalobiian]

So even that one shot took all her energy? Then it wasn't an easy battle at all. Was Madoka weaker in the first few cycles? Or did she just have better back up (Homura) in the ones where she beat the walpurgis night?

I would say the latter.

My idea wasn't solidly set on "I want to defeat the witch", but more like anything that relates to the witch's demise, such as "I want the power to save Homura" or "I want to save Homura" etc.

[animus]

Poor Mami, she dies in every scenario.

[KitKat]

Poor Mami, she dies in every scenario.
At least she never becomes a witch, that we've seen. I think Mami has it a lot better than Sayaka.

Also, I was thinking on how Kyubey collects the energy when girls become witches. Ostensibly, if they never transform i.e. destroy their soul gems, Kyubey doesn't get to collect that energy. Back when we first saw Kyouko die, I thought that the big explosion was energy being released from her soul gem, but this latest ep shows that the girls simply die when the gem shatters. Does that leave Kyubey at a net loss for his investment?

[Buffalobiian]

I thought KB gets a burst of energy when the girls form the contract, then another burst when they turn into witches. The gem is probably about recycling or something, who knows.

[KitKat]

I think forming the contract puts Kyubey at a net loss. He does have to grant their wish after all, which takes energy. But from what I understand, the payoff from the witch transformation is more than enough to make up for it and give energy to spare to power the universe.

[Archangel]

At least she never becomes a witch, that we've seen. I think Mami has it a lot better than Sayaka.

Also, I was thinking on how Kyubey collects the energy when girls become witches. Ostensibly, if they never transform i.e. destroy their soul gems, Kyubey doesn't get to collect that energy. Back when we first saw Kyouko die, I thought that the big explosion was energy being released from her soul gem, but this latest ep shows that the girls simply die when the gem shatters. Does that leave Kyubey at a net loss for his investment?

Yes, which is why he granted Homura her wish in the first place since a dead Madoka had no use for him.

[Buffalobiian]

Yes, which is why he granted Homura her wish in the first place since a dead Madoka had no use for him.

I don't think that's why, more that KB was jumping at the chance to make another contract. If anything, Homura's with to "redo their meeting" could result in Madoka never forming a contract in the first place.

[Archangel]

I don't think that's why, more that KB was jumping at the chance to make another contract. If anything, Homura's with to "redo their meeting" could result in Madoka never forming a contract in the first place.
Which would lead to the same end result. At least by sending Homura back he stands a chance to acquire her energy.

[shinta|hikari]

I think Kyubey would have made a contract regardless of what Homura's wish was. It just so happened that it gave him a chance to try again at Madoka's energy. Too bad he didn't know he created another monster of a puella magi in Homura.

[Kraco]

I think Kyubey would have made a contract regardless of what Homura's wish was. It just so happened that it gave him a chance to try again at Madoka's energy. Too bad he didn't know he created another monster of a puella magi in Homura.

Kyubey is from a species having no emotions, so he neither wouldn't care if he created another monster nor could he predict Homura would keep repeating the sequence forever. Kyubey is probably the one the most out of the loop in this whole reiteration scheme. He has barely enough psychological preprogramming to ensnare the girls but otherwise I doubt he has any idea what's going on. Kind of a nasty enemy, really, considering how succesful he still is.

I guess I need to watch gg's release next week. It's too boring to wait for Yesy while all the discussion wanes already in the mean time.

[David75]

Kyubey knows about the Time Reset Homura lives.
Why? I think I remember in ep8 he tells Homura it's useless to try to kill him eventhough she tried twice. Also, he's able to understand Homura's power only because he remembers the first time she tried and begins analysing and making comparisons.
It seems KB's only power is the wish, he doesn't know which powers the MG will get, only that there's sometimes a relation with the wish.
My guess is that KB benefits from the reset. It might be possible KB can extract entropy in each loop. And in each loop it seems Madoka's bursts are stronger. That would be really mean to Homura of course, as she would be in fact the best ally KB could ever get in his quest.

Truly a nice episode. I admitt I've been surprised by that show, I didn't think I would like it, but I do, and for very nice reasons like a good scenario if you forget KB's origins :D

[animus]

I'm pretty sure the two times he mentions that Homura tries to kill him were at the beginning where Homura shot at him and was saved by Mami and Madoka. The 2nd time is at the park where she killed him and his other copy ate the currently deceased one. He wasn't aware of her powers of time until recently.

[Kraco]

Yeah. Wasn't Kyubey expressing interest in how Homura can know so precisely what's going to happen and the background of it all?

[Marik]

News: Madoka Magica Anime to Resume on April 21 (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2011-04-10/madoka-magica-anime-to-resume-on-april-21)

[David75]

I guess like many fans all over the world, I was quietly waiting for that kind of good news without dreaming of asking for it due to the situation Japan is facing.
I will religiously watch those episodes when they are available.
As I said before, I really changed opinions about that show, both weird and nice to watch.
I really hope the finale will be mind blowing, but even if they sabotage it a little, some earlier eps were really worth it.

[Archangel]

Final episode to air today, brace for awesome

[shinta|hikari]

What time does it air?

[Archangel]

Apparently in about 20 hours... so for most people i guess tomorrow is the day

[shinta|hikari]

Dammit, I won't be able to watch it until Monday then.

[David75]

Dammit, I won't be able to watch it until Monday then.
Guess most people will watch around the same time, I mean those waiting for subs as they do not have an other choice ;)

Highly anticipating this too.

[shinta|hikari]

I'll try to ask my travel companion to lend me her laptop for 1 hour of epic during our trip to Chicago.

[Buffalobiian]

I'll try to ask my travel companion to lend me her laptop for 1 hour of epic during our trip to Chicago.

Is this going to be a double episode?

[Marik]

Is this going to be a double episode?

Yes, episodes 11 & 12. (http://forums.gotwoot.net/showthread.php/19097-Puella-Magi-Madoka-Magica?p=486398&viewfull=1#post486398)

[David75]

raws are already there...

It's been a long time since I last anticipated a sub that much.

[RyougaZell]

Episode 11 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=208113)
Episode 12 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=208105)

[David75]

So it's over.

Do not read ahead ;)

I can't say I didn't think of the reset.
Madoka really became something you could call a God, as she's everywhere with everyone and the only thing that remains really is similar to faith. But there's no cult and only one person really knows, others only have a very distant feeling.

Ep11 was quite flashy, at least Madoka's universe reset.
Ep12 is an aftermath ep, very rare in anime because usually you're past the excitement of the previous ep you could consider the true end.
It was a nice addition to see how the world changed after Madoka's reset, eventhough I admitt I'm not exactly sure I understood all the new rules. Particularly how the puella magi system now works and how the criters harvest their entropy.
I will probably not rewatch those eps, I should I guess, to extract/get more from them.
But I guess I like the Homura "arc" ep better, it probably was the climax of awesome and Madoka's true end did not really came as awesome, although quite beautiful.

[Buffalobiian]

But I guess I like the Homura "arc" ep better, it probably was the climax of awesome and Madoka's true end did not really came as awesome, although quite beautiful.

Yeah, I didn't "feel" it, but I did thought this ending was pretty good. (might be because I haven't seen Ep10 for like a month, or that I've got a slight headache or other few reasons). I believe that the main reason was that a lot of these two episodes were an "aftermath" (as you described), in that there weren't many twists and mysteries any more. Instead of guessing, we were mostly just watching it unfold.

The height of the "climax" in these last two episodes (if it can be called a climax) was revealing what Madoka's wish was.


It was a nice addition to see how the world changed after Madoka's reset, eventhough I admitt I'm not exactly sure I understood all the new rules. Particularly how the puella magi system now works and how the criters harvest their entropy.

Yeah, me neither. One hypothesis is as follows:

Incubators have noticed that the universe's entropy is decreasing and sought for a way to solve it. They discovered humans who unlike them, were capable of emotions. These emotions manifested themselves as "demons", and were an accumulation of the negative energy of humans (and thereby an energy source). Mahou Shoujos were asked to fight these battles as human hope was the most effective weapon to counter human despair. Theoretically, the despair that results when all hope is gone should manifest themselves in a similar fashion as "demons", but for some unexplained reason they don't.


I can't say I didn't think of the reset.

I did like how they started off this show as a staple magical girl series, broke the mould, and have the final outcome being the standard mahou shoujo fight-to-save-the-world-with-a-critter-on-your-shoulder system once again - as if this series was "The Birth of Mahou Shoujo".

The idea of "making a wish to transcend time and space to fight throughout history/future in order to save everyone make the world a better place" also reminds me of another well-received anime/franchise here on GW.

My favourite part of these two episodes was the bit with Kyuubei and a more mature (read: sexy) Homura. Boot-shots and all - :3

[Ryllharu]

It was very good, I wept manly tears. Now Madoka exists everywhere and nowhere, all at once.

I don't think anything else needs to be said.

[Buffalobiian]

It was very good, I wept manly tears. Now Madoka exists everywhere and nowhere, all at once.



Yeah, I rewatched that after my headache went away. I tend to only read the good bits when I rewatch anime too, and I enjoyed her talk with Homura a lot more this time.

edit:


I did like how they started off this show as a staple magical girl series, broke the mould, and have the final outcome being the standard mahou shoujo fight-to-save-the-world-with-a-critter-on-your-shoulder system once again - as if this series was "The Birth of Mahou Shoujo".

Almost forgot that this show also started with Madoka saving a ferret-like animal, and ended with some ribbon-giving. Just like another magical girl anime I love. :)

[Ryllharu]

I suppose I forgot about the parts with Madoka's mother and the girls' teacher. The way this series handled Madoka's mother was extremely well done. She wasn't a perfect mother, she wasn't a saintly goddess of goodwill, she was a mother. She lamented not being able to help as much as she could as her daughter grew up, just as their teacher lamented not always being able to help/save them.

Madoka's mother came off very human, a rarity in anime. She did not let Madoka run off on her own easily, she didn't ignore everything going on, she even offered to help Madoka with her troubles. She was perceptive (about Sayaka, asking if Madoka was being tricked by something, and other things), she was caring, and she acted like a parent should. Guidance, advice, never controlling, but always available to listen when a misstep was made.

If it wasn't for Kaname Junko, Madoka would never have had the smarts, selfless attitude, and resolve to make that wish. She raised a damn good kid, even if she no longer remembers her.

[Buffalobiian]

I forgot about Madoka's mother too. Now that I think about it, while she's not perfect she IS pretty superhuman. She works high up in management of a corporation, yet somehow uses her teeth-brushing and late-night-booze time to bond with Madoka enough that she sees her for counselling over her father's.

Because of her "working mum" status though, I've never really felt that Madoka was "raised" by her throughout the majority of this series.

[RyougaZell]

I was mind-blown by the two episodes. Madoka clearly gave a LOT of thought on her wish. She practically screwed Kyuubei and the Incubator's plan by modifying the rules. Leave it to the little critters to find another way to gather their energy... though thanks to Madoka the 'fallen' Mahou Shoujo / Puella Magi don't transform into a new enemy now.

My eye twitched upon seeing Sayaka falling yet again in the end. Really... she's a lost cause. At least she seemed to 'remember' Madoka as she fell... if their chat at the violin-audition gives us a clue.

Past Mahou Shoujo that Madoka saved... I recognize at least Cleopatra and Jean D'Arc.

I do wonder though... how did Madoka's younger brother still partly remember her?

[Archangel]

Lol, what the holy hell? Madoka just made herself a universal law, a fucking abstract universal constant! She's like time, space or gravity, a fact that will remain as long as the universe does too.

I demand a second season or a light novel or a fucking videogame for the 3DS, SOMETHING!

[Ryllharu]

I demand a second season or a light novel or a fucking videogame for the 3DS, SOMETHING!
There's always Madoka hope for the slice of life spinoff (http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/03/19/madoka-director-wants-second-season-as-slice-of-life/) [Link is NSFW, sankaku].

[Archangel]

Apparently there's already a manga spinoff

Mahou Shoujo Kazumi Magica - The Innocent Malice (http://myanimelist.net/manga/24295/Mahou_Shoujo_Kazumi_Magica_-_The_Innocent_Malice)

[David75]

Lol, what the holy hell? Madoka just made herself a universal law, a fucking abstract universal constant! She's like time, space or gravity, a fact that will remain as long as the universe does too.

I demand a second season or a light novel or a fucking videogame for the 3DS, SOMETHING!

She becomes the Goddess of all Maho Shoujos.

But in the end, she can't prevent them from dying after fighting too much.
The only thing she accomplished is preventing them from becoming witches that will do evil when they were innocent girlies wanting to be good girlies. It was really too sad.
I could add that all Mahou Shoujos we know were to be dead at some point, but incubator proposed the deal right before that. So you could think that it's normal they die at some point, since it's their fate after all.
It's just that Sayaka does not seem to fit in that scheme, or was she to commit suicide at some point?

[Xelbair]

Madoka can grow tired of this state of being - just like Archer in FSN - imagine what would happen then. She still, theoretically, is Mahou Shoujo - if she would start to despair her soul gem would start to trun into grief seed - now there can be two outcomes to this:
1) she won't be affected - because she transcended that state theoretically.
2) she'll stop being Mahou Shoujo, and she'll destroy her soul gem and return to being normal girl...which would basically mean that no one will save any other Mahou Shoujo, they'll start turning into witches and the circle goes on... just imagine 'endless eight Madoka'.

[Archangel]

Her wish was to stop any and every witch from becoming, if she were to give in to despair i don't see why her own rule wouldn't be applied for her as well

The question that remains is if the rule would still be in place after her theoretical demise, did she become the rule or did she create it?

[RyougaZell]

Madoka's wish already trascends time. If she were to fall... she herself would save herself. If 'she' were to dissappear... 'she' would still continue saving others as her wish, as Kyuubei said, trascends time and space. Quite the paradox.

[Buffalobiian]

Madoka can grow tired of this state of being - just like Archer in FSN - imagine what would happen then. She still, theoretically, is Mahou Shoujo - if she would start to despair her soul gem would start to trun into grief seed - now there can be two outcomes to this:
1) she won't be affected - because she transcended that state theoretically.
2) she'll stop being Mahou Shoujo, and she'll destroy her soul gem and return to being normal girl...which would basically mean that no one will save any other Mahou Shoujo, they'll start turning into witches and the circle goes on... just imagine 'endless eight Madoka'.


@ the above 3 posts: Madoka already HAS saved herself. That's what that giant death-star was. She transcended space-time and destroyed herself from becoming a witch, and by doing so ceased to be a mahou shoujo or an actual person and instead became a concept called hope.

What I wanted to know is how Homura ended up being unable to age. Also is the setting where Homura talks with Kyuubei about the past the future of Madoka's world? (ie, the one where everyone's forgotten her etc?). Or another one?

[shinta|hikari]

I don't think Mahou Shoujos ever aged. They are technically dead with their souls stuffed inside a gem, after all.

Also, it was Madoka's world.

[Buffalobiian]

I don't think Mahou Shoujos ever aged. They are technically dead with their souls stuffed inside a gem, after all.

Ah, I forgot about that part - which makes the look of relief on the girls who had their gems destroyed in the first arrow shootout a bit of a animation flaw.

[shinta|hikari]

It's not necessarily a flaw. Madoka is after all "saving" them in a way that transcends the previous universe's rules, so a slower transition to "death" (loss of control over the already dead body) is believable enough.

Also, just letting them keep the sad expression they had as soon as the jewel vanishes will confuse viewers and make them think Madoka is simply killing them off, not giving them peace.

[Kraco]

Now, a month later, I finally finished the show. Although technically just waiting for yesy already pushed the finish line farther for me.

Quite an abstract ending, but then again, after the beginning it was diverting to that direction, and the graphics, especially the witch parts, suggested an ending like this was in store, ready and waiting. For some reason I didn't find this ending too sad, though. I guess I need more translucent sad scenes than most of what this offered. One thing I appreciated a lot about the ending is that the world still remained a bad place...

A decent show all in all.

[Archangel]

You seriously need to get in on this

Grief Syndrome

http://i.imgur.com/1f9uR.jpg

Download links:
Part 1 - www.mediafire.com/?c3i5patfhf5qle4
Part 2 - www.mediafire.com/?r2srn3g30jlir3g
Torrent - www.nyaa.eu/?page=torrentinfo&tid=236555
MU - http://www.megaupload.com/?d=440EWUG6
Grief Syndrome Images v1.06: http://www.mediafire.com/?douegr6zhqsuk4b
Gameplay Vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqblxdzpAho

[Alhuin]

Three Madoka movies announced (http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/11/08/3-puella-magi-madoka-magica-movies-announced/)

Link NSFW (SanCom)

The only thing I could find on ANN was this (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2011-11-07/madoka-magica-film-project-launches).

This is very exciting news, though if the planned release dates for each film are as spread apart as Rebuild, I will be a sad panda. Here's to hoping we get more of a bow-wielding Homura!

[Archangel]

Inb4 remake.

[Alhuin]

According to the SanCom article, it was "confirmed" that two movies would be a rehash, while the third would be an entirely new production. I enjoyed the series, so I'm not complaining about seeing it again with a theatrical budget.

[Alhuin]

So Coalgirls released a batch version of all three movies.

1080p (http://coalgirls.wakku.to/torrents/%5BCoalgirls%5D_Magical_Girl_Madoka_Magica_Movie_T rilogy_%281920x1080_Blu-ray_FLAC%29.torrent) | 720p (http://coalgirls.wakku.to/torrents/%5BCoalgirls%5D_Magical_Girl_Madoka_Magica_Movie_T rilogy_%281280x720_Blu-ray_FLAC%29.torrent)

I only had time to watch the first two movies tonight, but I can confirm that they are indeed a rehash of the series. If you just want to see the new content, you can watch movie 3 without any problems.

[shinta|hikari]

The ending was fantastic. I was dumbstruck when it happened, and had to think about it for a bit before deciding that I love the ending.

I perfectly understand Homura's decision, and the grim taste left by the conclusion fits the tone of the series perfectly. She saved Madoka from being controlled by imprisoning her and sealing her memories. It was a perfectly selfish decision, yet it created a world where Madoka can be happy. The contrast between Homura and Madoka's personalities, selfishness versus selflessness, is what made the ending work. Homura enslaving Kyubey and his race is also a nice touch. It is apt punishment for trying to control god. They got the Devil controlling them instead.

The battle scene between Homura and Mami was fantastic. I was a little miffed that Homura lost, but I laughed it off when it was revealed that all of it was a dream created by Homura as a witch. The only reason Mami won is because Homura wanted her to, or at least believed that she would win had they fought.

I still hate Sayaka as a character.

[Alhuin]

Two things there wasn't enough of in the third movie: Red ribbon wearing, black bow wielding, witch-like wing sprouting super Homura, and Demon Homura. I mean seriously, they brought back wimpy, twin braid, glasses Homura for a good thirty minutes of the movie. I'm a fan of that character image just as much as the next person, but the two I mentioned above were so much more badass.

That being said, I liked the movie. I knew Homura was the witch long before the reveal, but I can't say it was very hard to figure out anyways. The more interesting part was that Madoka's wish never really got rid of witches; she only intervened before a witch was born. So the Incubators were incredibly smart to try and isolate Homura and guide her into that "unknown" source of energy. I'm assuming that's what they meant by "controlling Madoka".

What I don't understand though is, based on Madoka's wish, how is it that Sayaka and Bebe are witches? If Madoka truly intervened past, present, future, and pre/post birth, then shouldn't Sayaka and Bebe have been "saved"?

[shinta|hikari]

Aren't they the saved versions of themselves? Sayaka had both witch and magical girl powers.

[Ryllharu]

Should I even bother downloading the first two movies?

[shinta|hikari]

Nope. Just watch the third.

[Alhuin]

Aren't they the saved versions of themselves? Sayaka had both witch and magical girl powers.

But that's my point. If Madoka's wish worked like it was supposed to, she should have saved both Sayaka and Bebe before they became a witch. Thus "eliminating" witches, thus there being no witch powers.

I guess it kind of makes sense if you believe that Sayaka became a witch of her own free will, like Homura. But even then, it's hard to think you can just ignore the Law of the Cycle on a whim.

[shinta|hikari]

But we don't know what exactly happens when Madoka saves them. Maybe saving means that they don't become witches, but still change, like how Sayaka and Bebe did. They do disappear after Madoka picks them up after all.

Homura became a witch because she was isolated with a barrier. It has nothing to do with her wanting to become one.

If you mean at the end when she grabbed Madoka, she was already a witch, and at that point surpassed Madoka in power, thus enabling Homura to steal part of Madoka.

[Alhuin]

But we don't know what exactly happens when Madoka saves them. Maybe saving means that they don't become witches, but still change, like how Sayaka and Bebe did. They do disappear after Madoka picks them up after all.

You just said yourself that they disappear. From the end of the series (or movie two, if you want to go that way), it shows that Madoka takes on all the "despair" and "curses" from every magical girl in existence from the past, present, and future. She essentially takes their very essence as a magical girl, which is what causes them to fade away. It is literally impossible at that point for anyone to turn into a witch. Even Madoka herself surpassed her own despair and became a God because of her wish.


Homura became a witch because she was isolated with a barrier. It has nothing to do with her wanting to become one.

While the first part of that sentence is true, I was ignoring it because she could have very easily overcome that situation had she wanted to betray Madoka. Instead, she chose to accelerate the process of becoming a witch in order to protect her. I guess it could be argued it wasn't exactly "free will", but she gave in all the same. The only reason I compare it to Sayaka is because Sayaka was the same way. While she wasn't forced to become a witch through isolation, she voluntarily gave in to her despair. She chose the path of becoming a witch.


If you mean at the end when she grabbed Madoka, she was already a witch, and at that point surpassed Madoka in power, thus enabling Homura to steal part of Madoka.

I don't think she was actually a witch at that point. It was made very clear that the emotion enveloping her soul gem wasn't despair. Even Homura herself said she was a being far greater than a witch. She dubbed herself a demon only because Madoka was a God. Either way though, in that particular instance, she chose to take that path.

On another note, I can't decide if I want them to make a 4th movie that reconciles everything for the greater good, or if I prefer the more tragic ending we have now.

[shinta|hikari]

This ending is fine.

[Ryllharu]

I was under the assumption that this world was one where Homura had already been to once before, but ultimately knew would still lead Madoka back down the diety path (and thus leaving Homura alone). I think it can be safely assumed that Homura has still been blasting through temporal paths in an effort to find the outcome that reunites her with Madoka (post-diety wish). This fake world doesn't use grief seeds and the potential witches take other forms. It is the rarest of rare pathways, one where Kyubey "accepts" this less efficient method without Madoka forcing the issue...though mostly out of the hope of returning to the old days.

In the earliest parts, Homura is dramatically more aware of Madoka and the others. She knew how to become best friends with Madoka absurdly fast (something Madoka comments on), which implied to me that Homura has even been to this variation before, she just forgot about it after millennia of rewinding. That despair of not finding a path is what pushed her over the edge to whatever it is she is, she found an alternative to achieve her goals.

Homura's inability to see the faces of anyone not playing a large part in the variations of the timelines was a nice a subtle way to show how absurdly far her obsession had gone, even that early on. She simply didn't bother bringing anyone else in because she just doesn't care about them. She only grabbed who she needed. Then she becomes worse than a witch as a result of the despair from her very own trap. She exists as a 'demon' because of her own catch-22 and obsessive, putrid love.

It basically started as one of the happiest of outcomes. Homura can control and influence a lot of events in trying to get her ideal outcome, but ultimately the girls still have their own free will, as with Kyoko already being friends with Sayaka. Mami had somehow already tamed Charlotte/Bebe. And so on. It went on to show that only love can be so twisted and vicious to pervert even the best intentions. She also didn't even end up with what she wanted, because the method she used to get it ruined it for her. Madoka is rather terrified of her, and Homura gives off no warmth with which to draw Madoka to her.

-------

I did adore that Bebe growls and hisses at Kyubey. I do wonder how the hell Mami determined that Charlotte was after cheese (which may have even been the reason she initially chomped on Mami's head, the similarity of her hair color to fine cheese). I never got any of that from the original series. How could we as viewers have determined her minions were looking for cheese to feed to her?

That may also lead to why she is still a witch despite Madoka's divine interventions. She got caught in a wish that was impossible to both fulfill and for Madoka to stop the resulting despair. Essentially, if Madoka stopped it, she wouldn't have become a witch in the first place for Madoka to save, breaking Causality. Perhaps some very clever wording on Kyubey's part, making her both become a magical girl and a witch immediately in the same stroke. The same way that Sayaka becomes a witch no matter what, she always falls.

It's similar to the way that Madoka becomes the apocalyptic witch when she makes a wish when Walpurgis Night appears aside from the one wish to save all witches across all time, or (when she wishes earlier) any other time at all when Walpurgis renders Madoka unable to save others. Madoka could only escape her fate by rending herself from existence.

Perhaps Charlotte is impossible to save as a human girl (which is fine because she's the least aggressive witch of all time). It is interesting that the way that Mami treats her after taming her actually makes her more human, such as a speech and a more expressive face. Not to mention they can even use her as a pseudo-magical girl, something she probably never got to do.

Either way, despite Homura asking her, Bebe/Charlotte doesn't seem to mind the past that Onihomura had trapped her in as well. You could take Bebe's confusion as wondering why Homura is asking about it when she's the one who did it. It's not too hard to infer that witches weren't affected by Homura's meddling. Charlotte questions Homura's inquiry when she knows she's the cause, and Sayaka remembers everything too. In the end, Divine Madoka found a way to use them anyway, a method by which they could redeem themselves.

It's only through Homura's power that they are spared their fate. Not as a reward for allowing her ambition to succeed, but because she wants no competition for Divine Madoka's attention. The same reason that the part she broke off was Madoka's memory of who she used to be.

[Kraco]

Finally watched the movie. I think it was jolly good and the ending was even better. If you think about the original show (or movie 1+2), Madoka was the goddess and Homura the devil from the beginning, that is, Madoka was very fluffy and friendly to everybody and then sacrificed herself no questions asked for everybody's sake. While Homura was timid and harmless in the temporally absolute beginning, the show actually started with her as a villain of a sort. It's fitting this story didn't go all Hollywood trying to change that setting. It reflected their basic personality. It's not like everybody would even have what it takes to make themselves the devil.

I was kind of worried this movie wouldn't have any Madoka as she was a goddess already, but fortunately that wasn't the case, even if the beginning kept baffling me for a while. Kyubey was again successfully fricking evil, as expected. I think it was needed for the great justice that Kyubey finally got what was coming to them when Homura ascended. Madoka simply wasn't cut out to do something like that. She's a healer and could only try to deal with the consequences. As opposed to that, Homura is an experienced warrior in trying to prevent something due to the numerous loops. As sad as it is, being cold to the person she loves the most suits her character as well. I guess that's her introversion, which also allowed her to fight the others and betray goddess Madoka. No doubt that's a big part of why she wanted the social Madoka to have another chance to be with her friends, while she was ready to doom herself to loneliness. I doubt she will actually suffer from it as much as Madoka must have.

I don't really need another movie anymore, especially if it was going to give a Hollywood ending to replace this somewhat forlorn one.

[MFauli]

Why did nobody tell me about how good this anime is?! ;>

Watched it in 2 days. The magical girl-element is basically just a superficial part of the setting, but it bears not ultimate relevance. Rather, this anime is on par with something like Steins;Gate.

It oozes quality, such great animation and sound. Still, I´d only give it 9/10, because the story is too permanently depressing, and it´s too short to tell a real adventure. It´s more of a very specific mystery show. Which is still fantastic.

[shinta|hikari]

Did you understand that this was very popular and critically acclaimed because it's a subversion of the magical girl tropes? If you take out the magical girl part of Madoka, it's just another depressing teen angst story.

BTW, have you seen the final movie? It's a sequel to the TV series ending.

[Ryllharu]

I hope he watched the movie versions in general. The series is a bit superfluous at this point.

[MFauli]

Didn´t feel like there was anything superfluous. And no, haven´t watched any movies, yet, although a friend told me the 3rd movie was a direct continuation, so I plan on watching that one.

[shinta|hikari]

Ryll meant that the movies are better, so the series itself is superfluous now. He was hoping for the sake of your improved enjoyment that you watched the movies and skipped the series.

[MFauli]

Well, I honestly loved every single episode. If the movie-version is even better, that´s good to hear.

[shinta|hikari]

This is one of my masterpiece anime, actually, along with Fate/Zero, which you really should see.

[Buffalobiian]

Finally watched the movies.

Mami vs Homura was the highlight for me. Beautiful fight scene.

Kajiura Yuki owned the OST.