Bleach 293

[spitfire]

[HorribleSubs] Bleach - 293 [720p].mkv (http://www.nyaatorrents.org/?page=download&tid=166547)
[HorribleSubs] Bleach - 293 [480p].mkv (http://www.nyaatorrents.org/?page=download&tid=166545)

[LordGardenGnome]

It was actually an enjoyable episode, I don't like captain Hitsugaya he just annoys the crap out of me.

[Nintendo]

BEST Episode EVER.

[Kraco]

Yeah, right. They had to make Gin a drooling fanboy doing nothing but licking Aizen's ass.

And how the heck did Hinamori end up there in the first place? Aizen just invented a new spell in the middle of the fight, one that allows him to switch places with somebody?

Ichigo saw it fitting to stand with his hands in his pockets until Hinamori got skewered and only then asked the dudes if they really knew what they were doing. But then again, if the other captains really thought Aizen wouldn't use his h4x0r hypnosis, they were fools who deserved what they got.

Yeah, the best episode ever, for real. This was so bad it wasn't even funny anymore.

[Penner]

I actually loved it when Aizen completely fucked everyone over like they were nothing, but it was indeed very weird how Ichigo just appeared to stand there like a retard and watched while everyone attacked Hinamori.

Ichigo knows Aizen has "Complete Hypnosis" as a power, and he then sees everyone else going to attack their friend... just put two and two together you fucking idiot.

It's like he saw it all happen and decided "Hmm.. let's see how this plays out."

[Endrance]

Bleach logic. It works like Hirako's Shikai on Aizen.

[Archangel]

What are you lot complaining about? This was way more painful to read than it was to watch.

Plot and logic holes aside the action was pretty good and that is all i've come to expect of Bleach.

[Endrance]

This isn't just about complaining. Mere complaining wouldn't help anyone in the first place. This is about giving a bad show, producing weak ass episodes week after week and getting rid of any credibility the anime once had what it deserves - animadversion and disrespect.

Seriously, those bad anime shows need to get reviewkickedinthebutt'd by someone as harsh as avgn or spoony.


Besides, action means nothing if the background sucks/doesn't make sense in a strung-out show such as Bleach.

[David75]

Why care about reviews, fans, anyone if cash continues to flow ?

That's probably their mindset.

[NeoCybercoin]

Go Team Aizen Go!

[DarthEnderX]

Haha, back to the infirmary for Himamori.

Awesome episode. When they all lined up last episode I thought this fight was going to take forever, but Aizen is mercifully obliterating his way through everyone.


Yeah, right. They had to make Gin a drooling fanboy doing nothing but licking Aizen's ass.Why would he need to do anything?


And how the heck did Hinamori end up there in the first place? Aizen just invented a new spell in the middle of the fight, one that allows him to switch places with somebody?Considering we were watching the fight from the Captain's perspective, he could have simply landed, strolled over, tossed her up into the air. They could have been swinging at air the entire time. We don't know.

I'd like to have seen that entire scene replayed from Ichigo's perspective.


Ichigo saw it fitting to stand with his hands in his pockets until Hinamori got skewered and only then asked the dudes if they really knew what they were doing.Ichigo could have been warning them the whole time and they wouldn't have heard it unless Aizen wanted them too. He might very well have been doing that in fact.


But then again, if the other captains really thought Aizen wouldn't use his h4x0r hypnosis, they were fools who deserved what they got.
From listening to Hitsugaya, they seemed to be under the impression that he had to release his sword in order to control their senses. And for a bit, I thought they were gonna retcon it so that was the case, but the way it was described originally, once someone views Aizen's release, he controls all of their senses FOREVER, no rerelease required.


Awful lot of bitching in this episode about "plot-holes" that are actually easily explained. I'm not sure how much worse the manga gets, but a lot of this just seems like Manga readers bitching for the sake of bitching. Frankly, it's getting really tiresome having you guys come here and shit on it week in and week out. If you hate it so much why don't you stop fucking watching.

I thought this episode was great, and pretty much everything that happened is exactly what SHOULD have happened given what was established previously in the series.

[Kraco]

Considering we were watching the fight from the Captain's perspective, he could have simply landed, strolled over, tossed her up into the air. They could have been swinging at air the entire time. We don't know.

I'd like to have seen that entire scene replayed from Ichigo's perspective.

Ichigo could have been warning them the whole time and they wouldn't have heard it unless Aizen wanted them too. He might very well have been doing that in fact.

Umm... What did I just say? Why did Ichigo do nothing but stand there ogling like an idiot (although he is one so that's a poor comparison), especially if Aizen took his sweet time to stroll to the ground, carry Hinamori back up, go back down only to calmly walk away when everything was revealed. If the fricking morons didn't hear him, he could have gone there to kick Aizen's balls when he was busy carrying Hinamori around.


From listening to Hitsugaya, they seemed to be under the impression that he had to release his sword in order to control their senses. And for a bit, I thought they were gonna retcon it so that was the case, but the way it was described originally, once someone views Aizen's release, he controls all of their senses FOREVER, no rerelease required.

Except that Aizen could have released his sword with all the flash and bang and just make the others see nothing. I'm kind of using your own argument against you here... Again, we would need 100% Ichigo perspective to know anything. Though of course that perspective would end the moment he saw Aizen's release. So, we can assume he hasn't done that, for the story's sake, if it's a requirement Ichigo stays out of it.

They need Kenpachi here so that somebody capable wouldn't be under the influence. If a higher reiatsu allows you to ignore lower reiatsu's special powers (assuming Aizen wasn't just lying to increase Soi Fon's desperation), then Kenpachi isn't affected by Aizen's release. After all, he's the monster with the highest reiatsu (his one and only advantage). I don't think even Aizen can find any way around that. Unless he's been popping the pills like there's no tomorrow.

[Vorlath]

No wonder Aizen left Soul Society. Though I'm not really sure why he didn't leave 100 years ago.

I didn't find any plot holes. I was in complete agreement with Ichigo on this one. Imagine you see captains flying around killing allies. I'd be like WTF are you guy doing? Really, should Ichigo fly in the middle of that?

However, I was cheering for Aizen to kill them all off for most of the ep.

[Archangel]

I didn't find any plot holes. I was in complete agreement with Ichigo on this one. Imagine you see captains flying around killing allies. I'd be like WTF are you guy doing? Really, should Ichigo fly in the middle of that?
Are you serious? I can't tell.

[DarthEnderX]

Umm... What did I just say? Why did Ichigo do nothing but stand there ogling like an idiot (although he is one so that's a poor comparison), especially if Aizen took his sweet time to stroll to the ground, carry Hinamori back up, go back down only to calmly walk away when everything was revealed.I don't think that's what actually happened, I just think it could have been like that for all we know.

I think the mostly likely thing was that he was at the very least fighting with them, since he was cutting them down at the very least, but they never actually touched him. Soifon never jabbed him, Hitsugaya never froze his arm, etc. And at the exact moment, he just flash steps down to Hinamori and throws her up there.

Also, I'm assuming Ichigo was hanging back because they pretty much TOLD him to last episode. He was supposed to be waiting for an opening to strike, but I think it's pretty obvious Aizen never showed any openings since he was never in any danger fighting the Captains and Vizored.

[UChessmaster]

I thought this episode was great fun, it ran smoothly, didn`t draged anything and was entertaining the whole time, Aizen seemed really threatening too, i don`t particulary see any huge plot hole, we have to face the fact that Aizen`s sword is a huge ass deus ex machina. [/opinion]

My only complain with this episode: Why can`t those idiots use their Bankai already!?!?!?!?

[Nintendo]

Haha, back to the infirmary for Himamori.

Awesome episode. When they all lined up last episode I thought this fight was going to take forever, but Aizen is mercifully obliterating his way through everyone.

Why would he need to do anything?

Considering we were watching the fight from the Captain's perspective, he could have simply landed, strolled over, tossed her up into the air. They could have been swinging at air the entire time. We don't know.

I'd like to have seen that entire scene replayed from Ichigo's perspective.

Ichigo could have been warning them the whole time and they wouldn't have heard it unless Aizen wanted them too. He might very well have been doing that in fact.

From listening to Hitsugaya, they seemed to be under the impression that he had to release his sword in order to control their senses. And for a bit, I thought they were gonna retcon it so that was the case, but the way it was described originally, once someone views Aizen's release, he controls all of their senses FOREVER, no rerelease required.


Awful lot of bitching in this episode about "plot-holes" that are actually easily explained. I'm not sure how much worse the manga gets, but a lot of this just seems like Manga readers bitching for the sake of bitching. Frankly, it's getting really tiresome having you guys come here and shit on it week in and week out. If you hate it so much why don't you stop fucking watching.

I thought this episode was great, and pretty much everything that happened is exactly what SHOULD have happened given what was established previously in the series.

I Totally Agree With you

[Sabrac]

Read post below.

[Sabrac]

My only complain with this episode: Why can`t those idiots use their Bankai already!?!?!?!?

I AGREE!!!!


IMO
Good episode. Aizen is waaaaaayyy too OP tho. Kinda rediculous how he can still manipulate them even after he showed them Kyokasuigetsu over 100 years ago... I agree that Ichigo should have called them on their Hinamori beat down party long before Hitsugaiya skewered her like a stuck pig at a family BBQ. Although Aizen can conrtol hearing so that notion just goes right out the window.

All Ichigo has to do is snap, go full Hollow on Aizen's ass and hope he murderes him before Aizen shows him his Shikai.

Anyone else kind of find the episode anti-dramatic? The captains are falling by the wayside and common really... noone cares/likes Hinamori anyways. She should have died long ago!

[Jessper]

I actually loved it when Aizen completely fucked everyone over like they were nothing, but it was indeed very weird how Ichigo just appeared to stand there like a retard and watched while everyone attacked Hinamori.

Ichigo knows Aizen has "Complete Hypnosis" as a power, and he then sees everyone else going to attack their friend... just put two and two together you fucking idiot.

It's like he saw it all happen and decided "Hmm.. let's see how this plays out."

Sure Aizen might be able to fight off all the captains at once but I doubt Ichigo could, more so when he doesn't want to fight them. With a power like Aizen's the other captains are basically puppets, if they can't see or hear Ichigo he really has no way to stop them but to fight them.

[Kraco]

Ichigo's bankai's main power should be speed. He could have rescued Hinamori if he wanted. However, while I've been calling Ichigo a good for nothing idiot in my previous posts, it was made plainly obvious he didn't do anything at all because he was mortally afraid. You could see that by looking at his hands trembling. Only Hinamori getting "killed" snapped him out of his fright.

But I rather call him an idiot because I hate cowards even more than idiots. Also, I'm quite sure he had more chances of finding an opening while the captains were still standing than when they are all cut down... Haha. He was just too chicken to seize any opportunity.

What comes to their bankais, though, unfortunately could be explained by area effects. For example Soi Fon's huge explosion would be useless when they are all so packed together fighting what they thought was Aizen. For all we know, Shunsui's could be the same. Moreover, if they had any suspicion at all they were under the hypnosis, they would need to be even more careful.

[Endrance]

This thread is full of strange speculations due to even letting the logic of the logic of many strange actions open while at the same time making it look insanely stupid. But that doesn't matter, since it's left open, right? Seriously, endowing a character with a "complete hypnosis" technique, so even the most stupid scene ever wouldn't look liek total bullshit because well... they're hypnotized! Everything is possible from their perspective! Real clever. ONLY IT'S NOT.

(why is a shinigami even born with such a technique or where did he get it from? It's easily the most powerful technique in the whole world and it's never explained why he has it - for example Sephiroth in FF7 looked manlike but had his power because he was a mix of a powerful alien and a human being. Not that ingenious of an explanation either, but at least it's something that made sense in the world concept)

Just as AKiUzBeOn planned. Such subarashi test subjects.

http://sadpanda.us/images/253325-JN56QYM.jpg






I mean, you're seriously giving yourself the trouble of discussing the logic behind actions in a series where stuff like this happens?

http://sadpanda.us/images/253309-72YLM40.jpg
*REACTION*
http://sadpanda.us/images/253310-0GTW7O7.jpg
Totally. I'd fall for that, too. Especially if I could fly or instantly Sonido to the other side of the wall.

Doesn't this also remind you of...

http://paulstamatiou.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/outpost_firewall_review1.jpg?


I didn't find any plot holes..
You don't see the forest for the trees. Bleach itself is a plot hole. I'm serious. Read the script only (of course after watching the anime) if you're someone who gets easily distracted by visuals. You'll be like: "LOL! THIS IS WORSE THAN THE NES VERSION OF DR JEKYLL AND MR HYDE!" Well maybe not that bad.


Just saiyan.

[DarthEnderX]

(why is a shinigami even born with such a technique or where did he get it from? It's easily the most powerful technique in the whole world and it's never explained why he has it - for example Sephiroth in FF7 looked manlike but had his power because he was a mix of a powerful alien and a human being. Not that ingenious of an explanation either, but at least it's something that made sense in the world concept)How is that different from any other shounen anime either?

Why do ninjas have ninja powers in Naruto? Why can some people turn into logs and other people can't?


Aizen got his technique cause he's a fucking ghost, and ghosts have magic powers and his powers are stronger cause he's the main villain.

And I can't believe you used fucking Sephiroth as your go-to example for a "well thought out villain". He's Mary Sue incarnate.

[Endrance]

How is that different from any other shounen anime either?

Why do ninjas have ninja powers in Naruto? Why can some people turn into logs and other people can't?
It is explained dude. There's like five whole eps of material where ninja powers are explained with the elemental affinity people are born with and in connection to that they have the potential to learn several different techniques. I'm sure you remember them. It's not that much either and it doesn't always make too much sense, but it fits in the world concept and isn't total bullshit for the most part. Also on top of that, the people who can use a teleport like technique in Naruto are the fucking strongest guys on the planet (which makes totally fucking sense), where as in Bleach, every character with a powerlevel above 100 can do Shunpos and Sonidos like crazy and it doesn't mean shit, because the battles in Bleach make no fucking sense. Next to no character in Bleach actually wants to win if they cannot totally crush their opponent in any possible way and yeeaaahh, they do take the risk of losing their lifes if it means that there will be options to talk them until they're deaf. Wars actually are wars in Naruto and not some talk show rumble farce with Aizen as the Oprah Winfrey.
Naruto compared to that has (excluding fillers of course) well thought out battles for the most part, at least compared to Bleach.

Don't get me wrong though, you're right about there not being much more when it comes to logic in other shounen anime either. I'm just saying that they're not utter garbage with a plot hole every two steps they take.


Aizen got his technique cause he's a fucking ghost, and ghosts have magic powers and his powers are stronger cause he's the main villain.

And I can't believe you used fucking Sephiroth as your go-to example for a "well thought out villain". He's Mary Sue incarnate.
You're saying that, but he's still 5000% compared to Aizen. Sephiroth is strong, because he's a (non-failed) mutant made by the science studios of a monopolizing company (and there's alot known about them) through combining Jenova cells in the womb of a female human. And then there's the story about him finding out what that company did to him and decides to change sides.

It's not too much, but it makes sense in the world they're living in. There's psychological conflicts and interesting plot turnarounds. It's a whole network where every cogwheel has it's place. It's enough. Resident Evil doesn't offer more either and it made it to international cinemas. And there's also other (failed) subjects who are still strong, but not as strong as him and all of them (including Sephiroth later on) suffer from side effects. It's a well thought out gain/loss concept.

Aizen has... nothing. And nobody knows anything about him, neither is it ever explained how differences in shinigami powers are even accomplished in their nature. Natural selection? Possible. But if there's that great of a "gamebreaking" difference, it has to be explained or it throws the world concept overboard. When talking about Bleach, there's always assuming and barely ever any facts which explain essential logical indications.

"Aizen is just a super genius in any possible way (why and how? nobody knows) who does inhuman experiments to gain results and accomplish "higher greatness" and "a new world". That's all." Live with it or get the fuck outta here. Now that's one of the worst possible ways to treat a fanbase. You can't do that. It just has no credibility. If someone invents a light bulb you can say he was able to do that due to natural selection and because he has an outstanding IQ (like 30 above the average) and on top of that was lucky. But you can't make someone a super genius in anything possible without explaining how he got to it. That's just not okay.

Isn't that like the first thing Urahara, the professor Captain or any scientist should wonder about before they get into anything else?

[UChessmaster]

Then by your logic, Stephen Hawkin and Isaac Newton are real life plot holes? We`re never explained why they`re the two strongest mind in the world.


Aizen as the Oprah Winfrey

I`ll take Aizen over Madara *any* day of the week, thanks.

[DarthEnderX]

You're saying that, but he's still 5000% compared to Aizen. Sephiroth is strong, because he's a (non-failed) mutant made by the science studios of a monopolizing company (and there's alot known about them) through combining Jenova cells in the womb of a female human. And then there's the story about him finding out what that company did to him and decides to change sides.If his strenght makes sense because he's a mutant, they why is Cloud, a normal human, stronger than him in the end?



I`ll take Aizen over Madara *any* day of the week, thanks.Oh man! What's wrong with Madara now?

[David75]

Aizen is Kubo, hence his total Hax...

Also, the ones really suffering from total and complete hypnosis, are us the audience still watching a show supposed to be utterly crapy for at least some of us... Don't you think?

[Endrance]

Then by your logic, Stephen Hawkin and Isaac Newton are real life plot holes? We`re never explained why they`re the two strongest mind in the world.
What kind of comparison is this? "Real life plot holes"? Do you even understand the term plot?


If his strenght makes sense because he's a mutant, they why is Cloud, a normal human, stronger than him in the end?
It's already implied in the Nibel flashback that Cloud has the potential to beat Sephiroth (in Crisis Core you see Cloud as the shy attack force who doesn't use his potential in the slightest until he's forced to). In fact, he already did in the beginning and Sephiroth fled by jumping down the reactor (although this was out of a adrenaline rush and Sephiroth was already weakened by being stabbed in the back before) and he could only do that - one rush. He also went through several mako experiments by Hojo (not just the SOLDIER one) with implanting Jenova Cells* (just like Sephiroth, which makes him also some sort of mutant) and well, Sephiroth (like the other elite SOLDIER in Crisis Core) transforms later on, which is actually the side effect of the mako experiments they went through. That transformation makes them weaker/die and this is also why Sephiroth lost in the end. And well, because he wasn't beaten by just one person. In the final battle, all of the (rather strong on their own) characters fight him and since FF7 is not Bleach, where only the spiritual pressure counts no matter how many enemies with weaker reiatsu attack or DBZ/GT where the powerlevel decides the winner, they had a fair chance to kill him.

There's also a huge difference between being talented plus using that potential to gain chances and Aizen or while we're at it, also Ichigo.

*Jenova Project

[Kraco]

All those FF references go over my head, but comparing Aizen and Ichigo so far means little. Ichigo might be overly powerful considering he should still be very green but at least he has a huge weakness while Aizen seamingly has none.

Of course I don't see the end yet, and don't even read the manga, but normally one would assume Aizen collected his buddies and then developed the Arrancar to cover his own weakness (whether that weakness was in his defense or required to execute his plan). Now it seems like he had no use for anybody and they just were there because... the mangaka decided the story needed more fights.

[DarthEnderX]

It's already implied in the Nibel flashback that Cloud has the potential to beat Sephiroth (in Crisis Core you see Cloud as the shy attack force who doesn't use his potential in the slightest until he's forced to). In fact, he already did in the beginning and Sephiroth fled by jumping down the reactor (although this was out of a adrenaline rush and Sephiroth was already weakened by being stabbed in the back before) and he could only do that - one rush.How is that an explanation? Showing a character was also inexplicably powerful in the past doesn't explain how they're so powerful in the present, it's just as much a plot hole in the past as it is in the present.


He also went through several mako experiments by Hojo (not just the SOLDIER one) with implanting Jenova Cells* (just like Sephiroth, which makes him also some sort of mutant) and well, Sephiroth (like the other elite SOLDIER in Crisis Core) transforms later on, which is actually the side effect of the mako experiments they went through.This isn't correct at all, you seem to have missed a huge part of the plot.

Cloud is a completely normal human. He was NEVER a part of the SOLDIER program. He was a regular shinra trooper. During FF7, Cloud just THINKS he was a former member of SOLDIER because he had a mental breakdown when Zack died and has basically usurped Zack's past history. He thinks Zack's life was actually his life. That's actually the point of all those flashbacks. Early in those games, Cloud always remembers himself in Zacks position. Later in the game, when he's remembering what really happened, he sees that he's actually "3rd stormtrooper from the left" in all of those scenes up until the one where he...a normal trooper...defeats Sephiroth, a genespliced supersoldier, at the reactor with absolutely no explanation as to how.

Cloud never actually had ANY experiments performed on him. Zack is the one who had the experiments, Zack is the member of SOLDIER, Zack is the one with Jenova's cells like Sephiroth.


Now it seems like he had no use for anybody and they just were there because... the mangaka decided the story needed more fights.Well, from his reactions, he seems to have created them for a specific purpose, but after their performance in this arc, he considers them all failures. So whatever that purpose is, they just didn't fulfill it.

[Endrance]

How is that an explanation? Showing a character was also inexplicably powerful in the past doesn't explain how their so powerful in the present, it's just as much a plot hole in the past as it is in the present.
What the hell are you talking about? There is no plot hole. He wasn't inexplicably powerful in the past, he just luckily stabbed Sephiroth in the back while Sephiroth was concentrated on his "mother" after beating Zack and Tifa, thinking he got everyone who'd interfere out of the way, so he was weakened by a huge wound right through his stomach (which doesn't mean much in Bleach maybe). Aeris dies like that. Even Zack dies through being shot by someone way weaker than him. People in FF7 don't have some invisible aura shield. They get stabbed and shot like you and me (hopefully not).
He is powerful later on, because he is a mutant himself (if Hojo didn't infuse him with mako afterwards, he would've most likely died) and because he gets around, gains experience points and levels his materia and stuff (the combat in the actual game is rather symbolically to understand - it's an oldschool side view ATB). lol
But he's never as powerful as to beat Sephiroth all by himself. As I already mentioned, he doesn't beat Sephiroth alone in the end.


This isn't correct at all, you seem to have missed a huge part of the plot.

Cloud is a completely normal human. He was NEVER a part of the SOLDIER program.
I never said he was, but he was infused with mako AND Jenova Cells just the same as any SOLDIER after the occurrences in the Nibel reactor. NPCs all over the place tell you about your typical "green eyes" which only members of SOLDIER have. Now I'm not saying it's impossible to miss that, but I'm surprised that you seem to be completely clueless, since this isn't the only hint in the game.


He was a regular shinra trooper. During FF7, Cloud just THINKS he was a former member of SOLDIER because he had a mental breakdown when Zack died and has basically usurped Zack's past history. He thinks Zack's life was actually his life. That's actually the point of all those flashbacks. Early in those games, Cloud always remembers himself in Zacks position. Later in the game, when he's remembering what really happened, he sees that he's actually "3rd stormtrooper from the left" in all of those scenes up until the one where he...a normal trooper...defeats Sephiroth, a genespliced supersoldier, at the reactor with absolutely no explanation as to how.
You seem to have misunderstood a huge part here.
In fact, these events did not occur as Cloud describes, that is correct; rather, they are an amalgamation of Cloud's actual past (as a member of the Shinra army who failed to enter SOLDIER) along with his friend Zack's own past, mixed with memories gleaned from Tifa's mind, created out of a combination of shame, Jenova cells and manipulation by Sephiroth.

Everything else has been explained above. If you don't believe me play the game again or look it up. Maybe watch last order on youtube. It's just 22 minutes long or something and explains most of the things we're discussing here. You'll be surprised how much you apparently missed.


Cloud never actually had ANY experiments performed on him.
It may be a little hard to understand in FF7 if you mixed something up (it might get a little confusing if you couldn't follow some parts), but it is in crisis core and last order. He HAD experiments done on him by Hojo and Shinra.

[UChessmaster]

What kind of comparison is this? "Real life plot holes"? Do you even understand the term plot?

Do you understand the term plot hole?

Because there is none here, Aizen`s strenght has no clear limit established, he`s as strong as the writer wants him to be, by my example what i meant is that, Aizen is the strongest because statistically, someone has to be the strongest (just like hawkins is the smartest man alive because someone has to), granted i didn`t used the best example, thought you could`ve had figured what i meant.

There are huge power differences in the Bleach world, this is not new, compare random cannon fodder to Yama-jin, they`re both Shinigamies yet Yama-jin is eons away, was it ever explained what makes the old man so strong? no, why is it a problem now?

I never particullary liked the whole "let`s do detailed explanation as to where guys X is so powerful", at the end of the day it comes down to a wizard did it.

Remind me why Tifa, Caith Sith (a toy of all things) and Cid are so strong again?


Oh man! What's wrong with Madara now?

You don`t want to know.

[Endrance]

Do you understand the term plot hole?
I guess I'm fine ignoring that one.


Because there is none here, Aizen`s strenght has no clear limit established, he`s as strong as the writer wants him to be, by my example what i meant is that, Aizen is the strongest because statistically, someone has to be the strongest (just like hawkins is the smartest man alive because someone has to), granted i didn`t used the best example, thought you could`ve had figured what i meant.

There are huge power differences in the Bleach world, this is not new, compare random cannon fodder to Yama-jin, they`re both Shinigamies yet Yama-jin is eons away, was it ever explained what makes the old man so strong? no, why is it a problem now?

I never particullary liked the whole "let`s do detailed explanation as to where guys X is so powerful", at the end of the day it comes down to a wizard did it.
So you're basically saying you like this kind of plot holes (after saying there is no plot hole? Strange argumentation). Not like I care, but I guess as long as you have fun with low level swiss cheese plots, because you don't want/need explainations of essential parts of a world concept... none of my business. You probably would've liked FFVIII and FFX, too. I never thought that'd happen, but in that case you have my recommendation.

[UChessmaster]

You actually ignored both of my quotes, why post at all then? to insult my taste in video games? good job, yes, i like FF VIII and X, is that a sin now?. Aizen is the strongest (or one of the strongest shinigamies), he doesn`t needs an explanation.

[Endrance]

You actually ignored both of my quotes, why post at all then? to insult my taste in video games? good job. Aizen is the strongest (or one of the strongest shinigamies), he doesn`t needs an explanation.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_JMAKLjQ9j94/SqoxUe6Gj3I/AAAAAAAAAlU/hT2cPbOiHvM/s400/facepalm_implied.jpg

I usually don't do that, but you deserve it.

[UChessmaster]

*insert facepalm image because i`ve no real comeback*

I usually don't do that, but you deserve it.

And you quote me only to ignore me once again!, i guess asking you to talk about the actual episode requires too much concentration from you, i`m done arguing with you, you were retarded the last thread, and you are retarded now, you can have the last word or whatever.

[Kraco]

Well, from his reactions, he seems to have created them for a specific purpose, but after their performance in this arc, he considers them all failures. So whatever that purpose is, they just didn't fulfill it.

That doesn't really change the fact he never neeeded them in the first place. Because we know he has a very specific aim. Or at least we have been led to think so, and at the moment I don't believe enough in Kubo's writing skills to imagine the aim is something totally different and he has just been deceiving us all.

[Jessper]

I'm really curious if you actually like this Anime or not Endrance? You seem to detest it, yet you also appear to watch it each week.

The dog my family had when I was a kid wasn't exactly bright, even by dog standards, but she took less than 5 minutes to learn how the electric fence we put up worked. She wouldn't go near the fence after that. That's a pretty low standard for intelligence and yet I can't help but find an apt comparison in that experience...

[Archangel]

That's bullcrap Jessper, you'd be pressed to find anyone who hates Bleach more than i do and i still read every weekly chapter for the lulz

It's fun to watch how it gets more and more ridiculous with each chapter

[Jessper]

That's bullcrap Jessper, you'd be pressed to find anyone who hates Bleach more than i do and i still read every weekly chapter for the lulz

It's fun to watch how it gets more and more ridiculous with each chapter

You hate it and yet enjoy it? I think you don't hate it, rather you enjoy it for what you now perceive it as, even if that meant having your ideas of what the show was disillusioned, though that act probably left you bitter. Regardless of that Endrance doesn't seem to share the same enjoyment you do:



Not like I care, but I guess as long as you have fun with low level swiss cheese plots, because you don't want/need explainations of essential parts of a world concept... none of my business.

This implies that he in fact does not have fun with the plot of Bleach. :)

[Endrance]

There comes the hobby-psychologist. I guess I should be honored how often I get in the focus when visiting forums. In about every third post I did in the 127 MMORPG forums I've played the game from someone asked me why I was even there after reading my rather harsh criticisms. Every thread needs one I suppose. But before I respond properly I have some questions. Do you care, because you're interested my person? Or do you care, because you intend to make a point (for exmaple in order to defend the anime you like)? That's important information, because it might change the response you receive.

[Jessper]

There comes the hobby-psychologist. I guess I should be honored how often I get in the focus when visiting forums. In about every third post I did in the 127 MMORPG forums I've played the game from someone asked me why I was even there after reading my rather harsh criticisms. Every thread needs one I suppose. But before I respond properly I have some questions. Do you care, because you're interested my person? Or do you care, because you intend to make a point (for exmaple in order to defend the anime you like)? That's important information, because it might change the response you receive.

Ah, I don't care to defend Bleach, there are certainly plenty of issues with it. Though I watch the show because I enjoy the universe it is set in, and I find it entertaining. I don't watch it for the story, I read books for immersive and intriguing stories.

I suppose it was the way I was raised but I can't wrap my head around the idea of complaining about something when you have options to fix it (don't watch). Complaining is only useful if someone with the ability to cause change is listening, I can say with almost certainty that it is not the case here. Unless of course you just need to get something off your chest, but the way you're going about it in that case is a bit silly.

Additionally, being an attention whore is not something I would take as a compliment.

It is generally known, that he who expects much will be often disappointed. Enjoy life for what it is, rather than what you want it to be.

[Endrance]

In that case the answer you're searching for is already in one of my first posts in this thread.
Besides, if what you imply was true, then no one would be watching/reading harsh reviewers such as spoony, avgn and the whole lot of them. I'm also writing reviews by the way. And the term parody wouldn't even exist.
On top of that you got it wrong. I do enjoy Bleach in a similar manner as Arch does. What you quoted does imply alot of things, but it doesn't certainly mean that I'm not enjoying it in my own way. I do not genuinely like plot holes the way that Chessmaster (I wonder?) guy does, but I find it insanely amusing what Bleach mutated into. Every episode has pseudo-morals that are totally out of context, a huge plot hole at least every two key scenes... and alot of different things I find to enjoy about it. It's almost making a parody of itself, which again in certain ways is really interesting. I'm even currently rewatching the episodes together with a friend for certain reasons. On top of that still finding people who seriously seem to like the anime always gets me some entertainment out of it.

I'm not essentially complaining and surely not for nothing. I gain something by posting the way I do. You can be sure that if I wasn't, I wouldn't even view this forum.


I'm also not generally interested in personal justification topics on anime or game forums, so be happy I even responded.

[DarthEnderX]

I never said he was, but he was infused with mako AND Jenova Cells just the same as any SOLDIER after the occurrences in the Nibel reactor.Except Cloud is never IN SOLDIER! Zack dies right after the Reactor incident, and that's when Cloud has his mental breakdown and LEAVES Shinra and starts thinking Zack's backstory is actually his backstory. He never has a chance to be in SOLDIER.

You really need to reread your FF7 timeline or something.



That's bullcrap Jessper, you'd be pressed to find anyone who hates Bleach more than i do and i still read every weekly chapter for the lulz It's fun to watch how it gets more and more ridiculous with each chapter Yes, and those of us that are still trying to enjoy the show just love it when you guys come and take huge shits on it week in and week out even though you already knew how much you were gonna hate the episode.

"Hey guys, that thing that sucked in the manga sure did still suck in the anime right! HURHURHURHUUR! *highfives*"

It's like having people who like to heckle a bad movie is really only fun if everyone there is there for the same thing. To anyone just trying to watch the movie for the first time, people like that are dicks.

[Endrance]

Except Cloud is never IN SOLDIER! Zack dies right after the Reactor incident, and that's when Cloud has his mental breakdown and LEAVES Shinra and starts thinking Zack's backstory is actually his backstory. He never has a chance to be in SOLDIER.

You really need to reread your FF7 timeline or something.
This is false in so many ways. Neither does Zack die right after that, nor does Cloud "leave" Shinra at this point (he rather has no choice and is taken directly to the basement of the Shinra Villa). They're both being trapped in those glass containers down in the Shinra Villa on order of Hojo. You can check the cutscene where this is shown in the basement of the Villa when you press the action button while being near those green glowing (cause there's fucking Mako/Lifestream in it) tube like containers. Zack manages to get out of the container (because he already went through another, less dangerous procedure before since he was a SOLDIER), takes Cloud and runs. The game itself (although I was rather talking about the overall franchise since the beginning, not just FF7 but that doesn't matter in this case) also shows how Zack and Cloud are on the cargo area of some pickup (picture (http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ORK1kizAD6Y/default.jpg) - they're on the way to Midgar there and this is right before Zack gets shot on the mountain by some random trooper), being driven by some random guy where Cloud is already in that coma like state due to the Mako/Jenova Cell experiments done on him by Hojo. This is the reason why Cloud is already strong and has great potential (SOLDIER like potential!) once Final Fantasy VII starts and you jump off the train.

Also, how do you explain this?
http://sadpanda.us/images/256323-OY5YANX.jpg
Reno is saying: "He has... Mako eyes."

I apologize that it's written in german text, but I only own the german version. This is being said by so many people so many times in the game (often referring to SOLDIER, since only that people have those eyes), which makes me think everyone in the game seemed to know or at least assume that Cloud went through some kind of procedure connected to Mako, but you.


Final Fantasy VII: Crisis Core is a whole game about what's not shown in Final Fantasy VII itself about Zack before and after the Nibel Reactor incident. But again, that doesn't really matter in our case, since the Play Station Version does prove you wrong already.


Although I'm not telling you to stop arguing yourself into a corner (because it's kind of entertaining and because someone is going to intervene at some point anyway if this keeps going), please don't make me take screenshots of everything I just wrote by wriggling even harder.


Yes, and those of us that are still trying to enjoy the show just love it when you guys come and take huge shits on it week in and week out even though you already knew how much you were gonna hate the episode.
We're just posting our opinions in a discussion forum. That means anyone is allowed to post positive and negative aspects of each episode for discussion material as long as they follow the rules, which we do. If you cannot get along with the fact that some people may not be as much of a whitewash candidate as you seem to be (for whatever reason), discussion forums are probably the wrong place for you.


It's like having people who like to heckle a bad movie is really only fun if everyone there is there for the same thing. To anyone just trying to watch the movie for the first time, people like that are dicks.
That's a unfelicitous comparison. Bleach episodes are far from being movies and I doubt anyone would start watching at episode 293. On top of that we're allowed to discuss episodes here. In fact, that's what you're supposed to do. But I already told you that.

[DarthEnderX]

I decided to read the wiki on him just in case I was wrong, and it does say he was NEVER a member of SOLDIER, but it also says he did receive Jenova cells AFTER the reactor incident(hence the green eyes), but that still doesn't explain how Cloud defeated a genetically engineered supersoldier at the reactor when he was still a normal human being.


On top of that we're allowed to discuss episodes here. In fact, that's what you're supposed to do. But I already told you that.Except those people aren't discussing the episode in the here in and now. They're discussing their perceived generally shittyness of Bleach based on future manga shittieness. I'd really rather deal with that shittieness when it happens in the anime instead of having to listen to it NOW.

[Blind]

Being blind, even i know it was a lousy attempt to plot fill with recapped episodes, Déjà vu anyone?

[Endrance]

I decided to read the wiki on him just in case I was wrong, and it does say he was NEVER a member of SOLDIER, but it also says he did receive Jenova cells AFTER the reactor incident(hence the green eyes), but that still doesn't explain how Cloud defeated a genetically engineered supersoldier at the reactor when he was still a normal human being.
Now that's a lousy attempt to wriggle yourself out of it. I'll say it for the last time - I never asserted he was in SOLDIER at any point in this whole discussion. And even if I did by accident or you misunderstood a sentence, that wouldn't change that you're horribly wrong with saying stuff like Zack dying right away, Cloud leaving Shinra right away or telling me to get my stuff right when you obviously had no idea in the first place and even didn't consider looking it up if you were unsure up until now as we're way into it. That already made you lose alot of credibility along the way in this discussion.

And I've already explained the logic of the world concept from FF7. I'll also repeat that once, or rather copy it here.

He wasn't inexplicably powerful in the past, he just luckily stabbed Sephiroth in the back while Sephiroth was concentrated on his "mother" after beating Zack and Tifa, thinking he got everyone who'd interfere out of the way, so he was weakened by a huge wound right through his stomach (which doesn't mean much in Bleach maybe). Aeris dies like that. Even Zack dies through being shot by someone way weaker than him. People in FF7 don't have some invisible aura shield. They get stabbed and shot like you and me (hopefully not).

Sephiroth and Cloud never actually fought. Cloud stabbed Sephiroth which weakened him heavily (I'd say he was near death or at least couldn't do much after it as he was breathing hard and limping, also Zack told Cloud to finish him off). Then Sephiroth managed to skewer Cloud, because he was still unexperienced/a trained trooper and just berserked at him (we haven't seen if Cloud was wounded mortally, but it's possible he wasn't, while Sephiroth was stabbed by a huge Buster Sword) and after that Cloud had a adrenaline rush (which even makes people in real life forget their pain and also makes them stronger, while I'm not saying that alone this made him able to throw Sephiroth once before being unable to do anything) over Sephiroth killing his family, his friends and burning down his hometown and well, almost being thrown down the reactor himself. After that he instantly collapsed and would've probably died if no one came to pick him up. Also Sephiroth got away with the head of Jenova.

In my opinion, this does make sense, as I've already said - Being stabbed or shot actually means something in FF7. I'm not saying that it's totally realistic (and somehow I'm fine with some added awesomeness if someone attains something by willpower in desperate situations - as long as it doesn't go overboard), but it does make sense in the world concept of the game.

And even if you don't agree with me, this would still be miles away from being as bad as Bleach, where something way worse than this happens like every two minutes in one episode while it has a world concept that includes invisible aura shields which protect you from almost anything as long as it's powerlevel is weaker than yours.


Except those people aren't discussing the episode in the here in and now. They're discussing their perceived generally shittyness of Bleach based on future manga shittieness. I'd really rather deal with that shittieness when it happens in the anime instead of having to listen to it NOW.
Fine, that's a misunderstanding on my part then. I haven't read the manga and I wouldn't spoiler on here even if I did. And while I can't say I'd evaluate them as different products by 100 percent, I'd at least try to stay as objective as possible.



Being blind, even i know it was a lousy attempt to plot fill with recapped episodes, Déjà vu anyone?
You bet.

[DarthEnderX]

And even if you don't agree with me, this would still be miles away from being as bad as Bleach, where something way worse than this happens like every two minutes in one episode while it has a world concept that includes invisible aura shields which protect you from almost anything as long as it's powerlevel is weaker than yours.I don't actually remember how the FF7 example was supposed to apply to our Bleach argument...

[Jessper]

Besides, if what you imply was true, then no one would be watching/reading harsh reviewers such as spoony, avgn and the whole lot of them. I'm also writing reviews by the way. And the term parody wouldn't even exist.

Both of these things have purpose that you simply do not. Reviews are meant to forewarn people, this is a service to the readers telling them that they might be disappointed and could save their money and time. Most people don't read the discussions until after they've watched the episode, for spoiler reasons. You're not saving anyone anything in this case. The type of parody you're talking about (parody exists outside of ridicule), is meant to entertain an audience, I don't think you enjoy entertaining other people with your discussions though, only yourself.



On top of that you got it wrong. I do enjoy Bleach in a similar manner as Arch does. What you quoted does imply alot of things, but it doesn't certainly mean that I'm not enjoying it in my own way. I do not genuinely like plot holes the way that Chessmaster (I wonder?) guy does, but I find it insanely amusing what Bleach mutated into. Every episode has pseudo-morals that are totally out of context, a huge plot hole at least every two key scenes... and alot of different things I find to enjoy about it. It's almost making a parody of itself, which again in certain ways is really interesting. I'm even currently rewatching the episodes together with a friend for certain reasons. On top of that still finding people who seriously seem to like the anime always gets me some entertainment out of it.

So you do have fun with plot holes and the like, but I suppose this is just semantics and your inability to express yourself.



I'm not essentially complaining and surely not for nothing. I gain something by posting the way I do. You can be sure that if I wasn't, I wouldn't even view this forum.

Surely trolling can not be counted as something of worth.



I'm also not generally interested in personal justification topics on anime or game forums, so be happy I even responded.

Oh be sure, I'm honored to have someone so respectable respond to me.

[Endrance]

I don't actually remember how the FF7 example was supposed to apply to our Bleach argument...
I guess you'll not be surprised if I'm not astonished, since you also don't seem to be able to remember important parts about FF7, but still try so hard that it's almost pitiful and once you're realise you're wrong just act like it never happened but keep going about whatever you think you still have a chance to be right at. But whatever, I'm not getting into those things, as apparently I already have a stalker on me.
I don't know why you do that and I don't really care either. Don't worry though, I don't condemn you for that or anything. Everyone has bad days.

[DarthEnderX]

I guess you'll not be surprised if I'm not astonished, since you also don't seem to be able to remember important parts about FF7I remembered them as well as you did, you only "magically" started remembering really accurately halfway through the argument as well. It's obvious you did the same thing I did and went and looked it up AFTER you'd already tried to talk some shit. In the beginning, your posts were all vague as hell, now they're all laser accurate because your just paraphrasing the FF Wiki.

I also noticed that just about every post you've made in this argument you edit about an hour after you make it. No doubt going back and fixing errors you made after looking it up.

[Endrance]

I remembered them as well as you did, you only "magically" started remembering really accurately halfway through the argument as well. It's obvious you did the same thing I did and went and looked it up AFTER you'd already tried to talk some shit. In the beginning, your posts were all vague as hell, now they're all laser accurate because your just paraphrasing the FF Wiki.
I've played through FF7 nine times (it was my first RPG and I was open-mouthed about it's quality). There was never a need for me to look up the rough concept and key scenes this discussion was about at the beginning (anyone reading it unbiased (although I doubt many have) would confirm that). I've started looking up specifics (where I knew what happened, but I didn't want to mix things up) and making/finding screenshots to prove you wrong, since you've insisted on your personal opinion that clearly had it's facts wrong. I also admit I even copied one passage of a wiki article, because it sounded scholarly and I couldn't write it any better. lol
But what's wrong with looking things up if you don't clearly remember some specifics? I also keep looking up vocabulary at dict.cc and try to memorize them (main reason for editing my posts). It's better than writing garbage.


I also noticed that just about every post you've made in this argument you edit about an hour after you make it. No doubt going back and fixing errors you made after looking it up.
I didn't have to fix one error in terms of my information. I've only fixed grammatical errors I do from time to time when rereading my posts (mainly because I'm often in skype conferences listening and discussing there at the same time), because english isn't my native language. I'm kinda fussy when it comes to that, since I don't want to have posts that sound as if some kindergarten kid wrote it. Although surely there still are errors, I'm also trying to improve my english by the way. So if you still find any, you can let me know (although I doubt you want to do that). I don't know if it's possible as administrator or moderator to check my posts before I edited them, but you can try asking one if you don't believe me and think that this is important.

It's also obvious I didn't have to look up the part that was about Zack dying after the Nibel incident (your claim), since I've said I played Crisis Core, which (I already said that) is only about the story of Zack.


Now let's stop this. I've accomplished what I wanted to accomplish and there's clearly no need for us to go any further. It wouldn't end in anything other than this stupid personal justification flame war crap and I've already said I'm not intersted in those. You can have the last post if you wish. I'm fine with that, since you've probably been provoked by some of my comments.

[DarthEnderX]

It's also obvious I didn't have to look up the part that was about Zack dying after the Nibel incident (your claim), since I've said I played Crisis Core, which (I already said that) is only about the story of Zack.I was going by Last Order, which makes it seem like Zack is killed while he and Cloud are on the run after the reactor incident. But I haven't played Crisis Core, and since that is newer, then that would overwrite what is in Last Order.

How does he die in Crisis Core?

In Last Order, they are riding in the back of a truck and it seems like Zack dives in the way of a sniper bullet meant for Cloud.

[UChessmaster]

I was going by Last Order, which makes it seem like Zack is killed while he and Cloud are on the run after the reactor incident. But I haven't played Crisis Core, and since that is newer, then that would overwrite what is in Last Order.

How does he die in Crisis Core?

In Last Order, they are riding in the back of a truck and it seems like Zack dives in the way of a sniper bullet meant for Cloud.

If i recall correctly, the bullet hits zack and then he has to face an army of soldiers, as the battle progress zack becomes more and more wonded and starts losing his memories (which is a part of the gameplay mechanic), he dies as he keeps thinking of Aerith.

[Archangel]

Lol, he doesn't start losing his memories, he's dying and reminiscing about all his friends

[UChessmaster]

You`re right, i used the worst possible wording to explain it.

[Vorlath]

Sorry, I don't check back here too often. But to those that responded to my "there are no plot holes" comment, I want to say that I'm not joking and I'm talking about this episode only. Everyone was going nuts and Ichigo was like WTF? That's all that happened.