Another VB upgrade pending, looking for input

[complich8]

Just to let everyone know, and call for some feedback about it...

I've realized that there's not sufficient reason to fix the various (in many cases unexpectedly complicated) issues that the vb 3.5->3.8 migration caused.

Basically, vbulletin 3.x is a "dead" line. It's likely at its last non-security update. And while that'd be fine if I was looking for an update to just bugfix and settle on, I think it makes sense to change course a bit and go with the newer version.

See, the bugs caused by the last upgrade were the result of new features getting added, and our benighted default "gotwoot" theme not really coping with that too well. The person who originated the theme isn't doing that anymore, and the code style is a bit messy. Meanwhile, the possibility of updating further to vb4 means that any 3.x theme updates would be wasted when that happens, because of their entirely new template engine.

Right, so basically what I'm saying there is, you know all those bugs that I haven't made significant progress on lately? Yeah, don't count on me making significant progress on them.

Instead, I'm planning to do a full-on vbulletin 4 upgrade. This will entail building a new forum skin in the new template engine, and also rolling out a bunch of new functionality (much of which is in the current 3.x version, but not implemented in the default theme).

So here's where you come in. I've got some outstanding questions to ask you, the gotwoot reader at large. So I'm making a bunch of polls and feedback threads to roll up some of the outstanding stuff. Give me some feedback, now's your chance!

[Archangel]

Should we use this particular thread for some suggestion for the upcoming v.4 or should we focus on the bugs for now?

[complich8]

I'm pretty well done with the v3 bugs, insofar as I've got no motivation or commitment to continue trying to untangle them, opting instead for the 4.x update and mandatory new theme that comes with it.

If you've got sort of broad-scale v4 suggestions, feel free to post them here.

On specifics, I am liking this 1000px width of the theme I'm working on. It's still fixed-width, still centered, but like 220px roomier than the current layout. I'm going to do away with some of the subtle side gradient thing, just going for a straight-up black background, with a couple doses of #333333 charcoal for things that should be subtly separated from the background. Rather than having the banner be 815x120 with structural elements and weird gradients in it, I think I'm going to make the rotator banners just stick to 1000x150. Losing the pinstripe restriction is definitely the way to go. I'm still experimenting on whether I'll need to put other template restrictions on it or not, but I'm hoping I can make it work without them.

Lots to do .... not enough brain-cycles left to do more on them tonight. But yeah, comments welcome.

[Munsu]

I've seen some sites, that I think are SFM boards though, that automatically converts youtube links into an embedded video on a forum post. I think that would be cool to have.

Theme-wise, it would be nice to kinda have the forum to the left side, and have like a column on the right side with various different tools that might help on navigation, etc. For example, a section in the right column that gets updated with the 10 threads that have most recently been posted on, maybe the hottest 5 threads during a period of time also. The former would really help with overlooked topics/posts I think, particularly in sections that aren't visted as frequently as others. Don't know what else could be added at the moment.

[Archangel]

Mangashare has a very cool feature that autoresizes any picture posted to a size that doesn't break the page and then allows the user to view it at full size with a single click

That would be really helpful, i usually have to do it manually using imageshack and it's terribly annoying

[Alhuin]

I second Arch's "cool feature". I see it on Nihonomaru as well.

Aside from my already suggested scanline restriction on the banners (which you commented on already), and the increase in the default size of sigs, I would also like to bring up the idea of spoiler tags, if they are possible.

[Munsu]

No spoiler tags.

No problems for the sigs, though just a slight increase should be enough. These smaller sized sigs look much better this way.

[Alhuin]

Yeah, I wasn't thinking anything too big anyways... the 400 width isn't really a problem, it's just the 100 height that is hard to work with =P...

How come you don't like spoiler tags?

[complich8]

There's a whole philosophical debate to be had about spoiler tags. The short version of it goes like this:
pro: you get to hide stuff
pro: you get to talk about spoilers in places where they aren't wanted
con: presence of spoiler tags very quickly degenerates into whole threads of spoiler tags
con: spoiler tags make people unmindful
con: you get to hide stuff ... whatever you want, which can lead to abuses that mods who aren't caught up on a series can't easily see.
con: you get to post spoilers in places where they aren't wanted

We've gone around and around on it, but honestly, if you want to talk about the raw releases of some anime, or wander around throwing manga spoilers into anime forums .... well, I don't think a whole lot of people are really missing anything there.

Yeah, spoiler tags aren't happening.

As for layout, the whole vertical layout idea of ... you know ... forums... makes it kind of hard to put a static sidebar and have it be useful. Alternatives (ie: stuff that chases your browser position) are rarely good. I'd rather have the real estate for post content than a badly-implemented widget. Beyond that, it sort of sounds ... fiddly. Not on my priority list of features.

Auto image-resize.... I'll look into how to implement that, 'cause that'd be good, yes. Not sure what the actual implementation looks like, might be relatively simple.

Auto-embed youtube links ... also possible. Another to look into. I might not have that ready when I roll out the upgrade, but I like the idea.

[Ryllharu]

In supporting Munsu and Comp's stance, go to the animesuki forums and look at an episode thread for a currently airing series. They also use a vBulletin variant.

The discussion is constantly segmented into raw watchers some who use spoiler tags, some who don't and those who wait for subs. It's also full of people who have read the manga, read the novels, etc. Those people liberally abuse the tags. The community there is large enough (read: full of enough noise) that multiple discussions can still occur, but here it only stifles it. Then the thread can end up as little as two people going back and forth with spoiler tags.

It is similar to the rule on why raw discussion isn't allowed.

[Archangel]

Been there, done that (http://forums.gotwoot.net/showthread.php?t=16807)

I agree with Al, we should at least be able to use 500x150px sigs

[TwisT]

I actually like the current sizes. Sigs are cool and all, but when you look at other forums where they have bigger they are often just annoying. And it's the height that is the biggest problem. On forums where they have big sigs you usually have to scroll though enough to fill a 5000 word article and in the end you have read 5 sentences. Rest is just filled out sig space. And if you would get the new sig sizes, you would beg for bigger in a year. People always want more. But then again i don't make sigs so maybe i just don't feel the pain you feel over it. Also i think you're doing great with the sigs as it is.

[Archangel]

500x150px is hardly enough to make the pages look broken and confusing, especially since we don't allow spoiler tags

[Alhuin]

While my idea of spoiler tags did include the inevitable details of spoilers in a non-spoiler section, I was actually mentioning them for other uses as well, such as putting images in spoiler tags (if the auto-resize couldn't happen), or putting long two-person discussions into tags (such as the ones that happen between, say, Yuki and Ryll), or anything else that could shorten a thread. I only read the Naruto and Bleach manga, which is so far ahead now, I can't even remember a lot of the stuff that happens, so posting spoilers for a series wasn't ever really an intention, except for in a case like Rebuild, where someone brought up the issue of comparing it to the original and whether or not that would be a spoiler.

As far as the sigs go, like I said, the 400 width isn't really the problem... it's just the 100 height. The majority of my sigs are 400x125, so I would be perfectly fine with that. 500x150 might be getting closer to too large, but it's nowhere near as bad as the, say, 600x400 or whatever some people use on a forum where there is no restriction.

[Archangel]

You forget that comp plans to increase the forum's width, increasing the maximum to 500px as well is only natural

[Ryllharu]

While my idea of spoiler tags did include the inevitable details of spoilers in a non-spoiler section, I was actually mentioning them for other uses as well, such as putting images in spoiler tags (if the auto-resize couldn't happen), or putting long two-person discussions into tags (such as the ones that happen between, say, Yuki and Ryll), or anything else that could shorten a thread. I only read the Naruto and Bleach manga, which is so far ahead now, I can't even remember a lot of the stuff that happens, so posting spoilers for a series wasn't ever really an intention, except for in a case like Rebuild, where someone brought up the issue of comparing it to the original and whether or not that would be a spoiler.1. As it stands you don't have to put an image into tags. You post the url and it parses it as a url. No need for a toggle. Already ideal for spoiler images (when properly marked). Mods could also force the edit if someone posts a wallpaper outside of a thumbnail and breaks the layout.

2. Why would you want to put, "long two-person discussions into tags (such as the ones that happen between, say, Yuki and Ryll)," or otherwise shorten a thread? That completely eliminates the chance for someone to jump in and support one or the other. If a conversation wasn't meant to get jumped into, it would occur through PMs. The idea is to get a long dialogue going that others can hop into to diversify the viewpoints presented. We want to promote that level of activity on the forums, not fragment and isolate it.

If you're talking about nested conversations where the posts are cropped to links (something like Slashdot, et al.), then that is a different issue entirely. EDIT: Gotwoot already has that functionality, no one uses it to my knowledge.

3. As for Rebuild, I asked because I realized that some people were watching Evangelion for the first time. They'd never seen the original series. The dilemma comes into play because Rebuild leaves out a great deal that was discussed at great depth in the original series, and also intentionally draws out parallels and alternate takes on prominent events from the original. It is a special case. I wouldn't [I]think of spoiling if it was a series of movie adaptations coming from a novel (Garden of Sinners) or manga (Break Blade).

[Archangel]

Guys you're cluttering the thread, move your discussion to here (http://forums.gotwoot.net/showthread.php?t=16807)

[Ryllharu]

Points 1) and 2) relate to layout and functionalities that vBulletin has.

[Archangel]

The thread in general support is much more appropriate for that current discussion and more importantly you're missing the point of this one

Pretty much like I'm doing right now... lets stop

[Alhuin]

The idea was to make suggestions... I made suggestions... Some people don't like walls of text that have nothing to do with them, especially if it's 5 or 6 posts in a row. I personally don't care, and I read through each discussion, I'm just either too lazy to post whos opinion is closest to my own, or just don't care to post. I was trying to think of other examples besides actual spoilers as to why spoiler tags could be useful... your and Yuki's discussion in Working was the last time I could remember that example, which is why I singled that out. My Rebuild example was actually the one I wanted to relay the most, since there are more anime (such as series that get new seasons) that we discuss in the same thread, and I wasn't sure if there would be an incident with relating stuff to the first (or original) series and considering it a spoiler, even though it had already aired/been discussed.

[Yukimura]

Just going on record that I would never censor myself by 'shortening' a post I felt was as long as I wanted it to be with spoiler tags or any other mechanism. I suspect there is an upper character limit on posts enforced automatically but beyond that I think the text portion of posts should aways be displayed in their entirety.

If something is off topic then it should certainly be taken to PM but if two people happen to be the only ones who choose to discuss an issue that pertains to the topic of the thread back and forth for a while I see no reason why they should have to censor themselves in case someone wants to skip their entire exchange.

An alternative, probably not viable without making the db or the site do extra work might be an option to let everyone set their own 'max post display length' and crop any posts that are longer than this length for the users who choose to do so. That way only the people who actively dislike long posts will be affected (beyond the general overhead of handling the feature of course).

[complich8]

Max characters per post is 20,000. Default was 10, but back when I was a lot more active I ran into it once or twice and decided to up the limit. 20,000 is a damned lot of characters, which I'm not going to help you visualize here... but you can do 20000 bytes in the lipsum generator (http://lipsum.com). To be clear, 10k is more than anyone should need in forum-ish discussion, and if you're breaking the 5k mark on a forum post you probably need to stop writing and give George Orwell's "Politics and the English Language" a bit of your attention.

As for "walls of text" being 5 or 6 posts of things not relevant to your interests ... yeah, that's annoying. But you can pretty much skim a post in like 5 seconds and find out whether it merits further reading. So ... 6 irrelevant posts ... that's what, 30 seconds of your life? I've spent more than that typing this reply >_<.

On the topic of larger sigs... I've experimented with 500x125 and 125x125 avatars in the current layout (and given them out as contest rewards to a couple people). They're pretty reasonable in those circumstances. I'm not sure that 150px height isn't a bridge too far for me, and I like the 4:1 aspect ratio on them (they were originally limited to 400x80, if you remember back before my reign of terror started). Avatar and sig limits can be adjusted after the migration though, so that's a deferred decision.

Threaded and nested conversations... my best answer is this:
http://forums.gotwoot.net/picture.php?albumid=1&pictureid=2

I invite any discussion regarding layout and feature decisions on the forums, but spoiler tags are a closed issue that we're pretty much in agreement on. Not happening, let's move on.

On the related topic of remake-series (like ... any rehash of anything, at all)... yeah, that's a tough one. I guess it really depends on whether everyone's seen it or not, and how different it is. If they follow very similar lines (like it sounds like you're talking about), I think it'd be ok to talk about subjects that have already occurred in the remake. So like, if shinji fell down some stairs in episode 17 of the original evangelion, and Asuka pushed him down the same stairs in episode 17 of an eva remake, that'd be fair comparison grounds, but only consistent with our other spoiler rules for when you can talk about something. That'd be my take on it anyway. I doubt people who're watching dbkai are going to go back and slog through twice as much badly-paced dbz to find out what Roshi was doing when Goku was making a genki-dama, you know?

[Munsu]

Max characters per post is 20,000. Default was 10, but back when I was a lot more active I ran into it once or twice and decided to up the limit. 20,000 is a damned lot of characters, which I'm not going to help you visualize here... but you can do 20000 bytes in the lipsum generator (http://lipsum.com). To be clear, 10k is more than anyone should need in forum-ish discussion, and if you're breaking the 5k mark on a forum post you probably need to stop writing and give George Orwell's "Politics and the English Language" a bit of your attention.

As for "walls of text" being 5 or 6 posts of things not relevant to your interests ... yeah, that's annoying. But you can pretty much skim a post in like 5 seconds and find out whether it merits further reading. So ... 6 irrelevant posts ... that's what, 30 seconds of your life? I've spent more than that typing this reply >_<.

On the topic of larger sigs... I've experimented with 500x125 and 125x125 avatars in the current layout (and given them out as contest rewards to a couple people). They're pretty reasonable in those circumstances. I'm not sure that 150px height isn't a bridge too far for me, and I like the 4:1 aspect ratio on them (they were originally limited to 400x80, if you remember back before my reign of terror started). Avatar and sig limits can be adjusted after the migration though, so that's a deferred decision.

Threaded and nested conversations... my best answer is this:
http://forums.gotwoot.net/picture.php?albumid=1&pictureid=2

I invite any discussion regarding layout and feature decisions on the forums, but spoiler tags are a closed issue that we're pretty much in agreement on. Not happening, let's move on.

On the related topic of remake-series (like ... any rehash of anything, at all)... yeah, that's a tough one. I guess it really depends on whether everyone's seen it or not, and how different it is. If they follow very similar lines (like it sounds like you're talking about), I think it'd be ok to talk about subjects that have already occurred in the remake. So like, if shinji fell down some stairs in episode 17 of the original evangelion, and Asuka pushed him down the same stairs in episode 17 of an eva remake, that'd be fair comparison grounds, but only consistent with our other spoiler rules for when you can talk about something. That'd be my take on it anyway. I doubt people who're watching dbkai are going to go back and slog through twice as much badly-paced dbz to find out what Roshi was doing when Goku was making a genki-dama, you know?
Hmm, did the "Yes, Click Not Required" enable itself when the forum got upgraded? I'm pretty sure it used to require a click, and I liked it that way...

[complich8]

I don't believe so, 'cause I've pretty much never had to click to reply except when I'm in hybrid/nested mode (which .... yeah, haven't been there in a while).

I'd have to check my pre-upgrade backups to be sure though, and that's ... not very fun.

[Munsu]

I seem to remember the box always being greyed-out until you hit the quick-reply icon on someone's post.

Edit: I actually complained about it right after the upgrade:
http://forums.gotwoot.net/showpost.php?p=457982&postcount=8

[complich8]

hrmm. Right. Kind of odd, because I seem to remember never having to click to quickreply before. Maybe it's a display mode behavior change or something?

So I guess that's another question to ask the audience: quickreply with or without qreply button click. I'm gonna go make another poll...

[Sapphire]

Is more inbox space up for discussion? Also, gallery revamp?

[Munsu]

Is more inbox space up for discussion? Also, gallery revamp?

How much space do you guys currently have available?

[Archangel]

How much space do you guys currently have available?
We had 100 but then comp upped it to 200 which i feel is more than enough

[poopdeville]

I'm not a big fan of wide layouts. I bought a 24 inch monitor so I could have a browser next to a text editor next to a VLC window, not so websites could get wider.

[David75]

I'm not a big fan of wide layouts. I bought a 24 inch monitor so I could have a browser next to a text editor next to a VLC window, not so websites could get wider.

The layout is like 1000 pixels wide, which is not that much on a 1920 pixel width monitor... unless you have a 1680 pixel one which is a shame on a 24" screen ;)


Regarding message editor, there's an option for a full WYSIWYG editor but it might not be available yet?

[Archangel]

Yo complich, i recall you saying something about a mobile version? How's the status on that idea?

[complich8]

entertained the thought, haven't pursued it yet...