Gotwoot Subs

[Archangel]

Here's a positively insane idea to increase traffic on the website, what if we started out own fansubbing group?

We're a pretty small community so we sort of know each other fairly well, we have a few japanese speaking members and already come with a tracker from the deal

So... yeah i know it's pretty out there but what do you guys think?

[Sapphire]

I totally think this is an awesome idea. I still have a while before I could be worthy of being a translator, but I'd support the group every step of the way. Let's do this let's do this yeah yeah yeah!!!

--------
Positions

Raw Getter/Capper {elitefags}
Translators {shinta, masamune (signs, miscellaneous), Sapphire}
*Translation Checker {shinta, kaq}
Encoders {BoC, PA}
Karaoke {Sapphire, pyointa}
Timers {namaiki}
Typesetters {KitKat}
Distro {Spiegel (FTP/MAIN), DO (XDCC), Comp (TRACKER)}
QCers {KitKat, RedNeckNoob, Spiegel, Alhuin}
Editors {Sapphire, KitKat, BoC}
--
Additional support
Comp: Tracker, Host

Pandadice: Cheerleader
Buffalobiian: Mercenary


irc.gotwoot.net
#gotwoot-fansubs for those interested

[Alhuin]

I am totally interested in this idea. I've wanted to become a part of a fansub group for a long time now, to give back to the community for all the great anime I have seen fansubbed over the years. I would need to learn more about the process (and figure out exactly what I would be best at), but at least you know you are not alone!

[animus]

Sounds like a good idea, too bad I don't have any skills proficient enough to be a part of such an undertaking.

[Dark Dragon]

Also if fansubbing proves to be too difficult, you can always start with manga translation. There's plenty of good manga out there that aren't translated.

[Pandadice]

i'd watch your releases. or provide QC or something if you guys want.

[animus]

Also if fansubbing proves to be too difficult, you can always start with manga translation. There's plenty of good manga out there that aren't translated.

I'd say fansubbing anime would be easier (depending if it's text heavy or not) compared to manga at least for the translator.

Anime translator for the most part would just need to translate spoken audio which is probably easier to grasp than all manner of characters.

[Alhuin]

Unless you get a manga like Bleach with 10 pages of buildings crumbling... then you don't have to translate at all!

By the way, I think a few people on the forums are experienced in fansubbing, in some way... I'm sure they could give us some pointers as well.

[The1LittleMchale]

I may not post much on the forums, but I check them out more than once a day. I like the idea, and I have a pretty roxor PC that I built myself... All I need would be to have someone recommend some good software for me to pirate and I could more than likely do timing and anything involving fast PC action hero-ness. I also have a clean grasp on the English language, which would help making a QC guys job easier cause it would be hard to slip poor grammar past me. (Yes, I know hero-ness is not a word and I thoroughly enjoy making up random word combinations, so don't let that fool you about my quality of language skills that I have started learning almost 20 years ago)

A side note... I would not be a fan of doing karaoke for opening and ending themes. Translating them is fine but karaoke on them actually annoys the hell outta me (I may be weird for thinking that)

Another side note... I like almost all anime I have seen, but I would prefer not to sub anything I would not enjoy watching myself. (Honestly, off the top of my head, I cannot think of a show I have not enjoyed, but I probably have only seen maybe 75 shows)

Even if you are not interested in my capabilities I would be glad to support a GotWoot? fansub group in any way possible.

[animus]

Could always name the fansub team something silly like [KUBO'D].

[RyougaZell]

Could always name the fansub team something silly like [KUBO'D].

That is pure win.


Anyway... I haven't participated on fansub since the times of real media... and back then I just quality checked random scripts for Card Captor Sakura. I think it was back in 2001.

[The1LittleMchale]

That is pure win.


Anyway... I haven't participated on fansub since the times of real media... and back then I just quality checked random scripts for Card Captor Sakura. I think it was back in 2001.

When has media ever been real? Sounds like an oxymoron to me...



And I don't think that name suggestion tops gg and their tag-line of "You cant spell faggot without us."

[RyougaZell]

When has media ever been real? Sounds like an oxymoron to me...



And I don't think that name suggestion tops gg and their tag-line of "You cant spell faggot without us."

...... real media... RM files. Real Player...

ring a bell?

[The1LittleMchale]

...... real media... RM files. Real Player...

ring a bell?

Oh... My apologies for being retarded. You saying that made me think of the viv player.... nightmares about Ranma 1/2.viv episodes will haunt me tonight.

[Alhuin]

The fansub team name would just be Gotwoot. All the members would be members of the Gotwoot community, and the torrents would be hosted on the Gotwoot tracker. So the name is perfectly fitting (and is just badass by itself). This is, of course, unless a founder/moderator deems it inappropriate to use the name.

[The1LittleMchale]

Agreed... and it makes me think of this picture. http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/3135/gotwoot.jpg

[Sapphire]

Is that... our logo?

[Sandldan]

I remember there was such an initiative a few years ago, we had plenty of people for every position. Even chose a series, but dont think we ever found a translator so the idea just died out unfortunately.

Got a fast computer and decent internet, would be happy to help out in any way i can

[Sapphire]

We have comps support!


[18:11] <~complich8> anyway, fansubbing is a big time commitment ... bigger than most people realize
[18:12] <~complich8> and a big people-management exercise
[18:12] <~complich8> more importantly, you need material to work on
[18:13] <~complich8> I've seen friends of mine try to start groups of their own like 6 times, and every time it comes down to "we picked this up, but then someone experienced picked it up and did a better job in a third of the time it took us, and we lost all motivation to work on it"
[18:14] <~complich8> so .... if you can find something to work on that nobody else is really doing, things will work out better ...
[18:16] <~complich8> it means if you're serious about it and you can work out the problems of staffing and getting material, I'd be open to the idea of hooking you up with logistical support (ftp, tracker, etc)
---
If I understand correctly, the following jobs are needed to make a fansub group:

Host: Comp
Encoders
Timers
Translators
Distributers
QC
Editor

I'm willing to be a deputee translator in training, and an editor

[masamuneehs]

i'd be potentially interested in helping out, but there's got to be a commitment from core members for this thing to even have a hope of working.

the first thing we need is people signing up for particular jobs, saying what their availability is, what their credentials are, and saying how they'd get the job done.

i suppose i'd better go first.

position: Manga Translator
Availability: once a week
Conditions: I work better with written word than with spoken word, and I'm not about to agree to something that I'll regret, so, for me, it's manga or nothing right now.

I will not work on anything that is being done by another (semi-competent) group. I despise groups cluster-fucking around 10 titles when there are hundreds out there not being translated at all. Sure, if there's only one other group and they're full of fucking idiot fail, then I wouldn't hesitate to pick up that manga from them.

How: Kanji dictionary and grammar example database for the really nasty things. Notepad document with the English text written below the Japanese text

Credentials:
NOT SAFE FOR WORK
http://exhentai.org/uploader/themasamune
NOT SAFE FOR WORK

[Sapphire]

Position:
Editor (and distant future translator)
Availability:
I HAVE A LOT OF FREE TIME ON MY HANDS.
Experience:
Have been learning Japanese at University for nearly two years (but not long enough to be a main translator)

[TwisT]

It's all foggy but didn't we have a fansub group. I know we had some talks about one but i seem to recall some of the GW people joining ro creating some fansub group a while back (Think it was when Basilisk aired and shit). And if i remember right i think Munsu helped out in some way. Maybe he can shed some light on it before i go crazy trying to remember.

[KitKat]

Twist, yes we sortof did, but we didn't have a competent translator.

Depending on what series we were doing, I'd be available for QC. I frequently proof-read papers for people, and I have a Masters degree in Linguistics so that should count as qualifications, right?

I can also be the official supplier of cookies for the group :P

[Pandadice]

i'll watch the release, so i'm pretty much part of the group too, right?

[Sapphire]

In what sense? XD

[Pandadice]

morale support xD

[Board of Command]

Gotwoot tried to make a fansub group a few years ago before most of you guys were here. I can't remember all the members, but it was me, DragonOutlaw, and some other people, none of which have posted in this thread yet. That group (Proxy-Fansubs) never panned out because we couldn't find a translator.

Anyhow, if you guys actually get a decent group going, then I can encode. I encode for SFW but I've been on hiatus for a while because the group is inefficient to say the least. I can time/edit as well but I don't have time for that stuff right now.

edit: nvm, KitKat was in it too and she already posted here.

[Pandadice]

Anyhow, if you guys actually get a decent group going, then I can encode. I encode for SFW but I've been on hiatus for a while because the group is inefficient to say the least. I can time/edit as well but I don't have time for that stuff right now.


SFW? so you know Frosty? Frosty's a pretty cool guy.

[Kraco]

Host: Comp
Encoders
Timers
Translators
Distributers
QC
Editor

Groups usually also have someone responsible for acquiring the best raw possible, even if it's not a separate person. Depending on the series being translated this can of course be extremely easy or somewhat more specialized if Japanese p2p networks need to be used.

[Board of Command]

SFW? so you know Frosty? Frosty's a pretty cool guy.
Frosty's been AWOL for a while.

[shinta|hikari]

I would love to do the translation, but I really don't have the time for it right now. If the show being subbed is a moe blob or a slice of life show then it should be fine, but if it involves technical terms, weird names, jargon, or anything that requires research then I will not be able to do a quality job so it is better if I don't get involved.

[Sapphire]

So if we're laid back, slow, and start out with something cute and/or easy you'd be willing to join us as one of the (sub/side) translators? :D

@BoC: DO didn't post, but he's willing to lend support, if you check out the second post.

[shinta|hikari]

Yeah, as long as I feel I can do a good job and fulfill the work expected of me, then why not.

[damentz]

Good morning internet!

I can do the encoding for your project.

[Psyke]

A rep I received based on a post back in 2007 has led me, inexorably, here in this thread. Well 3 years have passed and while I did pass my JLPT level 2 exams a year ago, I don't think I'm that good yet. More importantly I don't think I have the extra time to spare with my little one taking up the bulk of weekends. Still, you guys have my full support and I'll definitely pick up whatever series you guys sub. Good luck! :)

[Alhuin]

How many QC's are generally in a fansub group? That probably seems like the easiest thing to learn and accomplish even with a busy schedule like mine, so I'd probably lend a hand for that.

[Sapphire]

We just started, so we could use as many as we cab get. QCers are the end all though, so they're expected to watch the episode closely at least a few times to make sure the errors are nil.

[Archangel]

We just started, so we could use as many as we cab get. QCers are the end all though, so they're expected to watch the episode closely at least a few times to make sure the errors are nil.
Not really, QCing is something anyone can do but few people can do well

Kitkat is perfect to the job for example, overqualified even. She alone could do the job, having any extra people would only provoke a conflict of opinions and delay the episode's release

That said we should also have one or two for back up

[Sapphire]

If you designate one person to do everything, the group will die out faster. For whatever reason, if that vital person drops out, then everyone is fucked.

I agree with you on how overcrowding is a bad thing, but since we're just starting out I'm willing to look at everyone who is interested in a particular job. No one will want to do every episode of every series we do, so right now I'm not willing to discount someone because we conjecture that someone else can do it better.

We all want the strongest team possible, so it's not like we'll recruit 7 QCs for every ep (nor is that realistic). Also, If you know how to properly bring up a point, disagreement/conflict of opinions isn't a bad thing and could help the final product before release.

[Munsu]

I'll pretty much echo what comp said. It's really time consuming, and doing series that are already worked on is really a pain in the ass. The problem is this, either you'll be going against a group that is doing a better job than you, and then you'll lose motivation. Or, you'll find yourself going against a speed-sub, and if your release doesn't add that much more value than said speed-sub, then you'll feel like you're wasting your time or you'll just try to be even more of a speed-sub, and that's a pain in the ass itself plus it'll probably lead to low quality releases.

If I were you guys I'd rather go for manga. There's more untranslated stuff out there, the commitment isn't has heavy handed as anime either, and fan criticism is far less, particularly since errors in translation and editing are harder to pick-up.

I'll just say this, if you guys do manage to do this and for some reason you attach GW's name to this, please don't release crap.

An alternative also is to look for series that were started from whatever group and for some reason never got finished, and then you guys decide to finish it. That could be a good niche, it's how Shitsen and Animeyuki got off the ground and found success, even when they were releasing subpar releases, at times horrible.

Also, if you guys do karaoke, make sure it's a good one, else you're better off just putting plain text with standard timing.

I didn't like my fansubbing experience, but I met some people that I still keep in contact with, so that was the cool part of it, but for the most part I think I wasted my time in a lot of the stuff I did particularly because of the things I've already mentioned here, and also because of laziness from key members (translators in particular).

Just my 2 cents. Good luck.

[Sapphire]

Good point about starting with something that no one bothered finishing. For example, no one bothered completing Soul Eater (Though it's probably better to have a test run with a much shorter series).

On your comment about releasing crap: That's why I like Gotwoot. We're a group of dedicated, if not critical individuals. I have faith that we can work together to release stuff that's amazing quality.

[Buffalobiian]

Soul Eater was subbed. Just not totally by any single group.

Daa Daa Daa!! would be a better example, unless Aone is still working on that..

[Archangel]

I think that for now we should focus either on re-encoding or on DVDs and BDs

Not only are they simpler and allow us for more time to prepare, they don't necessarily require translators who we seem to lack for now

[Buffalobiian]

I think that for now we should focus either on re-encoding or on DVDs and BDs

Not only are they simpler and allow us for more time to prepare, they don't necessarily require translators who we seem to lack for now

That makes me think you want to take on THORA. :p

If we can get the job done better/faster, why not.

[Archangel]

That makes me think you want to take on THORA. :p

If we can get the job done better/faster, why not.
Actually our only real competition should we try this would be chihiro and if we can't do better than them then we should just heed Munsu's words of warning and drop the whole thing

[Buffalobiian]

Since you get stuff from Thora more often than other people I know, what do you think about their speed Ark?

Sure, they've got to wait for the actual BDs to come out and all, but once that's out, how fast do they make a release?

I know Ef - Melodies was out long ago, and they still haven't completed that project yet.

[Archangel]

They actually completed ef today, took them about a year

They're quality subbers so time is not their concern, and honestly neither should it be ours. Time tables turn people off in a big way, i say we take our time and work on that as we move along

[Board of Command]

I'm all for taking on THORA provided we somehow get the BD releases.

btw THORA does not sub anything. They use other group's scripts.

[Sapphire]

For now us folks on IRC are looking at Working! once we get situated and a team formed, pending shinta's approval. According to BoC only m.3.3.w is doing it well, and they're taking it slow so we can focus more on competing quality wise.

We definitely need: Raw Getter/Capper, Translators, Timers/Typesetters, Distro.

see post 2 for who does what

All positions are OPEN though.

irc.gotwoot.net
#gotwoot-fansubs

status: forming team

[animus]

According to my search on tokyotosho I see 4 groups working on Working!! or at least have released an episode 2, SHiN-GX, Chihiro, the m33w collab, and Saitei.

The Chihiro ones were rather decent quality, and they release fast. But they also seem to release v2s often.

[Archangel]

According to my search on tokyotosho I see 4 groups working on Working!! or at least have released an episode 2, SHiN-GX, Chihiro, the m33w collab, and Saitei.

The Chihiro ones were rather decent quality, and they release fast. But they also seem to release v2s often.

Yuurisan and m.3.3.w. are also working on it and to think we can do a better job than them when we're just getting started is nothing short of naive

Who says we have to start this season anyway, we're still deciding on positions.

[shinta|hikari]

I would love to work on Working! since it is one of my favoured shows this season, but with the amount of competition, we will probably not achieve much as Arch has noted. It might be better to start when we already have a relatively complete cast, even if it means starting next season.

[Pandadice]

do House of Five Leaves or something. since afaik all that's available is Funi rips.

[Buffalobiian]

Just throwing this in there for when things start rolling - you'll probably need a policy on shows getting licensed and all.

Gotwoot as a tracker's ran into C&D issues before.

[Sapphire]

I would love to work on Working! since it is one of my favoured shows this season, but with the amount of competition, we will probably not achieve much as Arch has noted. It might be better to start when we already have a relatively complete cast, even if it means starting next season.
Agreed. I don't want to rush things which is why I used words like "looking at" and "once our team is formed". Maybe we won't get started for a few weeks or even until next season, but we can still start off with something like Working (or whatever you/the staff decides) when we're ready. Also, Since you're the only translator ATM, everything you translate pends your approval. <3

I'm also not expecting us to shoot to the top with one release. However, IMO Looking to beat the best isn't a bad thing, so when I talk about competition I mean in quality not speed, I'm saying we should look to pass them instead of putting out something mediocre because it's our first release. If anyone comes up with more ideas for what we should sub first when our team is formed I definitely want to hear them. Of course doing something people would want to dl is huge (as Masa or someone said).

Also learning timing in case no one wants to fill the position, but I don't know if I'll be perfect by the time the group is formed so still looking timer/typesetter.

[Archangel]

People who are interested in joining or just contributing in any way please join us

irc.gotwoot.net
#gotwoot-fansubs

[Alhuin]

Just throwing this in there for when things start rolling - you'll probably need a policy on shows getting licensed and all.

Gotwoot as a tracker's ran into C&D issues before.

If I remember correctly, I addressed this on IRC and I think we came to the conclusion that we wouldn't sub anything that got licensed. Seeing as it would be Gotwoot that hosted the tracker, and it their name we are using, we wouldn't want to bring any trouble to the community.

That being said, I have no idea what we would do in the situation a show we are subbing becomes licensed midway through.

[shinta|hikari]

Dropping it would be the only option right?

[Alhuin]

That would be the idea. But it's yet to be said how strongly anyone would feel about abandoning something they've worked on for a decent amount of time already. I mean, you hear of countless times when a subbing group (that is against licensed series) gets a C&D letter that they actually ignore.

[Board of Command]

Also learning timing in case no one wants to fill the position, but I don't know if I'll be perfect by the time the group is formed so still looking timer/typesetter.
Timing is pretty easy. I pretty much learned it when I was asked to fill in for someone. Only problem is if you're not pro (which I'm not), it takes a long time.

[Kraco]

Timing is pretty easy. I pretty much learned it when I was asked to fill in for someone. Only problem is if you're not pro (which I'm not), it takes a long time.

I once timed a Naruto ova and it took a helluva lot of time. Aside from the program crashing a dozen times during the process, it was indeed easy otherwise.

[Archangel]

Dropping it would be the only option right?
Assuming the team was really excited about the project we could always find other ways to release it

[Sapphire]

I am paranoid.

[Ryllharu]

Google crawlers can the text Saph...same as if I quoted it. It will be cached sooner rather than later.

google: site:http://forums.gotwoot.net "I totally think this is an awesome idea."

Goes right to your post (http://forums.gotwoot.net/showthread.php?p=460197&postcount=2). Just in case you weren't already paranoid enough.

------------------------
If you're a US citizen and you get a C&D letter citing a DMCA violation, you can be held liable (hosting content, links are in a grey area for now). Keep it in mind.

[Sapphire]

Not so cautious about speaking about fansubbing itself, just doing licensed stuff.

[Sapphire]

Staff list (http://forums.gotwoot.net/showthread.php?p=460197&postcount=2) updated, good news is sn00k and his wife have demonstrated interest in being translators for us!

Still looking for people to fill all positions of course.

[Sapphire]

For those of you who are interested in learning how to time (and the basics of Aegisubs), I'll dump some of the Aegisub tutorials I used here:

Aegisubs Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5U_mFbspYA&feature=channel)
Aegisubs Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSiM1Dr9BnM&feature=channel)
Aegisubs Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY8klzAkF_Q&feature=related)

Another one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVKR-A0fV70)

Typesetting (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHWzJ2E6-OE)

(Will post a good karaoke one when I find one)

Also some interesting links about the fansubbing process:

Live-Evil FAQ (http://www.live-evil.org/faq)
Webzine Fansubbing tut (http://www.sugoidesu.com/Sugoi_Desu/Issue_1/Fansubbing%20tutorial%20%28FINAL%29.pdf)
"Idiot's" Fansubbing Guide (http://larcho.wordpress.com/2008/07/14/what-goes-into-a-fansub-aka-an-idiots-guide/)
Interesting ANN Interview (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/feature/2008-03-11)
"Actual" Idiot Fansubbing tut (http://srsfknbiz.wordpress.com//2008/10/13/fansubbing-for-dummies-an-actual-guide-for-dummies/)
Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fansub)
Aegisubs Docs (http://docs.aegisub.org/manual/Main_Page)

[Kraco]

Off-topic posts deleted. No flaming in this thread.

[Spiegel]

QCing and Distribution I can do if you need the help of course. I wish I had more time to do more.

[Sapphire]

An interesting thing is people are starting to sub captions: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=93117

[shinta|hikari]

I got myself some pretty good Requiem for the Phantom: Picture Drama raws.

Raw Torrent (http://www.nyaatorrents.org/?page=download&tid=126663)

It might be a good idea to try translating these because they already have pictures (unlike sound episodes), but no one seems interested in translating them.

I used to do Code Geass sound episodes and picture dramas as well, so with a complete team, this should be much easier. It seems these picture dramas are comedy pieces, and are very short, around 6 minutes each.

What do you guys think? It might serve as a good test run considering the length of each episode. I am not sure about the difficulty in terms of translation yet, but I will give feedback once I have seen them.

[Sapphire]

Sounds interesting. I'll help you organize this. Meet me on IRC and we can get started.

[Sapphire]

Staff list updated guys, please welcome Ygg (Translator, Translation Checker, Timer, Typesetter) and PharoahAnubis (encoder) to the team!

(And KitKat is now an editor as well)

I think that completes our team. :)

Look forward to some AMAZING things. :)

[Pandadice]

sub this pls

http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=anime&aid=3666
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=D7OEJQKZ (raw)

[Kraco]

If you guys really get the subbing group rolling, I've been thinking the forums might need a new section for Gotwoot's own subbing projects, depending on how popular shows and releases they are going to be. From Gotwoot's future's point of view, as much popularity as possible would naturally be the best. Right now the General Anime format might not serve indigenous projects in the best manner possible, unless En Fuego is adapted for it. Although I don't know why a piece of shit anime like Bleach would have its own section and our subbing projects not.

This would require some deeper pondering, for sure, should things turn out well.

[Sapphire]

Comp knows we need a subforum, so he'll give us one when he gets around to it!

@Panadice: Later on I may make a requests thread. So please don't forget that you want it subbed!!!

[Ygg-san]

Uhm, so ya, Sapphi forced me to post an introduction...

Basicly, my name is Marcus and I'm 18 years old. I'm born and currently residing in Sweden but I plan to study in Japan next year... I'm currently in the last year of high school reading economics and society. I've been studying Japanese for about three years (in august it'll be 3 years) and been fansubbing s TLC and TL for 2½ year by now.

Things I can do within fansubbing: everything
Things I will do within fansubbing: TL, TLC and timing (oh and not much timing though, mostly only tl's timing for guiding the timer)

Languages I speak: Swedish, Danish, English, French & Japanese

Hobbies: Languages, history, mythology, culture, music...you get the hang...

Occupation(s): Student, Economist, Designer and vendor

Availability: Whenever I feel like it with regard to studies and work...

How I work: I load the raw in aegisubs, I load its audio, time sentences and tl them while listening to them. Then leaving them to other persons to fix it. Time process 40min - 4 hours if I do it seriously, which I don't. So eta should be on how much ppl distract me. Then I upload to the ftp and highlight the shit out of the next person in line to work on the script...

Extra: I'm making guides for people in how to learn Japanese, if yo want some just tell me and I can make on demand or send some that I've already made.

Reason I joined: Sapphi asked me too, and I was already going to post the TL at TheFreelanceTranslators so why not here too?

That was all I guess

[namaiki]

I think you can time faster than I can.. :p

[Ygg-san]

I think you can time faster than I can.. :p

I just don't like to time :D It's like necessary evil ^^'

[namaiki]

Well, basically I don't mind timing because it doesn't really use my brain unlike editing and QCing, which I have to make perfect though it never is. :/

[Sapphire]

I actually don't mind karaoke timing at all, if I like the song.

[Alhuin]

Well, basically I don't mind timing because it doesn't really use my brain unlike editing and QCing, which I have to make perfect though it never is. :/

QC is never perfect (like you said), so don't fret about it. Even top tier groups have slips in QC sometimes. If you check your work as you go along, it definitely helps minimize any errors, but it's entirely possible for something small to elude everyone's attention until release.

EDIT: Neg-repped for stating the obvious. Of course our plan is to "shoot for the top", but nothing will ever be perfect. That is a fundamental law of life.

[Sapphire]

We need more editors, and could still use other assorted jobs like Typeset and Translator, so if you're interested, please post here or give me a PM.