Naruto Chapter 483

[Marik]

MangaStream / Binktopia

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[Death BOO Z]

yay, she's on the right team!

and it was hardly Marare fault, Sasuke was fucked up from the start.
and it's nice to see they remember the hospital fight.

'goodbye, space cowboy\ninja'

[rockmanj]

Is Sasuke daft? I know he has a lot of chakra, but fighting Danzou, then Kakashi (with Naruto on the way)....I know he is too much of an idiot to retreat; maybe Madara will come back for him.

[RyougaZell]

Ugh... why damn it. Why did Karin had to live?

And Sasuke looked so pathetic when he yelled to give him back his mummy, daddy and brother...

[Parkalash]

this is so good, but at the same time bad, unlimited power sasuke? wth

[iMUSTbeTHEdevil]

I really hope that Naruto doesn't jump in and stop Kakashi from killing Sasuke.

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

I've kept silent through all the sasuke owns everyone chapters... but if he manages to take out kakashi after all the effort and chakra and eye blood it took to kill danzou, I'll be riding right along the 'hate that fgt' bandwagon.

[Logrus]

Well... He fought the Kages just, then beated Danzou and now kakashi?

if he even puts up a fight would kill this show.

[darkshadow]

If he somehow manages to beat kakashi...........well then all of the past good chapters have gone to waste.
Nobody should have this much chakra, kishi is starting to get rediculous again.

[Cal_kashi]

I for one welcome our new evil Sasuke overlord.

And I love his new I'm completely batshit insane look.


Edit: I just don't think this fight is going to go down. I think someone's gonna show up, or someone will scurry away or something. I must add, I'll be overjoyed if we do do the fight to the death between the last Uchiha and the copy master, but I'm not feeling it.

[February]

As much as I dislike the "hate emo Sasuke bandwagon", I also think it would be ridiculous for him to take down Kakashi after just beating Danzo. With Naruto on his way, Sasuke needs to back off or have Madara come save his ass.

I don't see the reason why Kakashi wanted Naruto to go back to the village

I assume that either Sasuke or Kakashi will die from this fight, and I'm assuming that Kishi doesn't want Sasuke to get killed by Kakashi because he wants Naruto to beat Sasuke.

[Uchiha Barles]

I really hope that Naruto doesn't jump in and stop Kakashi from killing Sasuke.

I don't think you have to worry about that. Naruto's going to jump in and save Kakashi.

[Sam98034]

I'm pretty sure Kakashi is going to get the best of Sasuke. That would take away all of the badassedess of Kakashi. I vote for the Sasuke retreat on this one.

[Idealistic]

Yup. Naruto is going to cry and beg Kakashi to let Sasuke live. Sasuke gets away.

And oh my god.... Sakura shoulda died right there. SOOOO STUPID!!!

[Rikudo]

Sakura is the most pathetic student taught by a Sannin. I'm assuming the girl with Konohamaru have already surpass her.

[Y]

Kakashi should by all accounts be stupendously weaker than Sasuke. Sasuke was copying Kakashi's ultimate techniques years ago (the bizarre inexplicable Mangekyou Sharingan Kakashi developed notwithstanding) and Kakashi certainly didn't receive the ridiculously large powerups and training Sasuke did, so it's not TOTALLY ridiculous that Sasuke should be able to put up a fight against him. Also, Sasuke did get some Karin juice before Danzou's body started going crazy.

Kakashi certainly can't defeat him in a fight, it would be a totally absurd anticlimax to the entire storyarc. Tying with him is also out. I can't really see Kakashi dying in a loss here either, as we just had that plot, back when Pain killed him. His dead dad is gonna be real surprised to see him again so fucking soon if that happens. So just about the only plot resolution I can see happening here (logically, which may not stop a million other retarded outcomes) is for Sasuke to defeat but not kill Kakashi. We can probably also assume that Kakashi is going to unveil and explain how he got his Mangekyou Sharingan before he gets his ass whooped. I wouldn't be surprised if there was also some retarded plot twist where Sasuke rips Kakashi's eye out.

[animus]

Damn it Kakashi, you should've let Sasuke kill Sakura. Then Sakura will turn around and stab Sasuke. I was expecting a double death.

[Cal_kashi]

Damn it Kakashi, you should've let Sasuke kill Sakura. Then Sakura will turn around and stab Sasuke. I was expecting a double death.

This would certainly work Naruto and Lee into a frenzy, I am now hoping this happens.

[poopdeville]

The new team seven -- Kakashi, Naruto, Sakura, Sai, Yamato -- are going to waste Sasuke.

Sasuke is going to learn the lesson of team work, again, by taking an epic beating.

[Sidnne]

I have this feeling that Kakashi could die here. I see Kakashi getting the best of a weakened and arrogant Sasuke. And just as Kakashi is about to kill Sasuke, Naruto gets between them, distracting Kakashi and allowing Sasuke to put a chidori through his chest.

And if Sasuke does beat Kakashi, I don't think I'll be able to keep reading the manga.

[-=DS=-S.W.A.T3]

Nah what I think is that Kakashi gets beaten...sasuke is going to try and kill Kakashi and Naruto just walks in there all lucid and everything sasuke throws at Naruto, Naruto will just take the hits sasuke throws at him seeing if sasuke will come back to his senses and eventually drive sasuke into even more madness

[Tyreal]

I have this feeling that Kakashi could die here. I see Kakashi getting the best of a weakened and arrogant Sasuke. And just as Kakashi is about to kill Sasuke, Naruto gets between them, distracting Kakashi and allowing Sasuke to put a chidori through his chest.

I can see this happening. Either this or Naruto turning up and stopping Kakashi from attacking Sasuke and then Sasuke using it as a chance to escape.

[Archangel]

Sasuke is just fighting kage after kage isn't he?

I don't know how he can take another step let alone take on kakashi, something better happen by next chapter to explain all this...

[Sam98034]

Kakashi should by all accounts be stupendously weaker than Sasuke. Sasuke was copying Kakashi's ultimate techniques years ago (the bizarre inexplicable Mangekyou Sharingan Kakashi developed notwithstanding) and Kakashi certainly didn't receive the ridiculously large powerups and training Sasuke did, so it's not TOTALLY ridiculous that Sasuke should be able to put up a fight against him. Also, Sasuke did get some Karin juice before Danzou's body started going crazy.

Kakashi certainly can't defeat him in a fight, it would be a totally absurd anticlimax to the entire storyarc. Tying with him is also out. I can't really see Kakashi dying in a loss here either, as we just had that plot, back when Pain killed him. His dead dad is gonna be real surprised to see him again so fucking soon if that happens. So just about the only plot resolution I can see happening here (logically, which may not stop a million other retarded outcomes) is for Sasuke to defeat but not kill Kakashi. We can probably also assume that Kakashi is going to unveil and explain how he got his Mangekyou Sharingan before he gets his ass whooped. I wouldn't be surprised if there was also some retarded plot twist where Sasuke rips Kakashi's eye out.

Most of us think Sasuke is definitely stronger than Kakashi, but not *right* now. He's just fought a few Kages, and Madara said something about knowing that Sasuke is faking it and his light was dissapearing. So he's semi-blind right now and probably won't be using many eye techniques, which I'm hoping Kakashi has learned how to deal with a little better.

The exciting part is that we may find out what that "thing" is Itachi gave Naruto after this.

[Whistling]

I had forgotten about the "chakra crow" that Itachi gave Naruto...this would be a good place to unveil it or possibly in the ultimate showdown between the two later on. I bet whatever it is it activates upon a certain condition, just like Amaterasu when Sasuke saw Madara's sharingan for the first time.

My bet is the fight between Sasuke and Kakashi won't happen or will barely start. Either Naruto or Madara or a mix of the two will cut it short. I can see Madara popping back into the area and either putting Danzou's minions in a precarious position or just throwing them at Naruto and Kakashi giving him time to warp Sasuke out of there.

[Spaceaprion]

Sigh: Remember the days when there was a limit to how many Chidori's you could throw out in a day. Sasuke is on like number 42 today.

[The Heretic Azazel]

Kakashi should by all accounts be stupendously weaker than Sasuke. Sasuke was copying Kakashi's ultimate techniques years ago (the bizarre inexplicable Mangekyou Sharingan Kakashi developed notwithstanding) and Kakashi certainly didn't receive the ridiculously large powerups and training Sasuke did, so it's not TOTALLY ridiculous that Sasuke should be able to put up a fight against him. Also, Sasuke did get some Karin juice before Danzou's body started going crazy.

Kakashi certainly can't defeat him in a fight, it would be a totally absurd anticlimax to the entire storyarc. Tying with him is also out. I can't really see Kakashi dying in a loss here either, as we just had that plot, back when Pain killed him. His dead dad is gonna be real surprised to see him again so fucking soon if that happens. So just about the only plot resolution I can see happening here (logically, which may not stop a million other retarded outcomes) is for Sasuke to defeat but not kill Kakashi. We can probably also assume that Kakashi is going to unveil and explain how he got his Mangekyou Sharingan before he gets his ass whooped. I wouldn't be surprised if there was also some retarded plot twist where Sasuke rips Kakashi's eye out.

Kakashi can't be beat like a bitch in his first fight as Hokage, it would completely ruin the concept of appointing him. Sasuke is half-blind and battle-worn from consecutive fights, I wouldn't mind seeing his capture, transport to Konoha and interrogation by Ibiki. They are going to need to know what is behind Madara's space/time jutsu if they ever hope to best him.

[UChessmaster]

Kakashi can't be beat like a bitch in his first fight as Hokage.

Danzou says hi.

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

Kakashi can't be beat like a bitch in his first fight as Hokage, it would completely ruin the concept of appointing him. Sasuke is half-blind and battle-worn from consecutive fights, I wouldn't mind seeing his capture, transport to Konoha and interrogation by Ibiki. They are going to need to know what is behind Madara's space/time jutsu if they ever hope to best him.

If sasuke somehow figured out how it works just by getting warped through it so many times I'll be even more impressed than I am by all his new badass jutsu.

Of course Sasuke could defeat Kakashi, and it would be a tough fight, but he could do it. But should he be able to take down two Kage level nin's in a row without even a 10 minute breather? FUCK NO.

The ending of this manga just got really predictable. Everytime someone see's what a evil crazy prick Sasuke is now they mention how he's a different person and how he is so far gone. He himself even says stuff that hints towards the ending; when he was fighting with gaara and he talked about the darkness is the only path for him blah blah. Okay we get it, he is a complete asshole with no chance of ever returning to the light.... BUT WAIT... Who's that guy thats always inspiring people into changing their ways and fight the good fight? Isn't it Luke Skywalker? Idk maybe im thinking of someone else.

Only thing Im wondering is if this encounter with Kakashi, and possibly Naruto, will be the one where he shonenheart hugs sasuke back into the light. Then comes the twist to the plan kishi spelled out for us already from the words of Madara about Naruto and Sasuke fighting to the death. And Sasuke's own words of destroying the Leaf... Instead they'll have to team up to save the Leaf from Madara. Now that I think about it though Kakashi has to die at some point, it's either gonna be now by Sasuke or later by Madara.

[itadakimasu]

I think that's where things are heading... sasuke kills kakashi, naruto gets revenge.

BUT... come on, sasuke should be done right now. Bleeding from his eyes, beat up. I'd have to guess madara comes to save him?

[darkshadow]

Anyone who believes Kakashi is going to die by sasuke's hand is a fool.

[Asakura50]

Here is what I forsee happening!
Sasuke by killing Danzou and gaining new form of Susanoo his chakra levels has gone up a peak not to mention he probably gained isanagi (if you know Kishi, he is sure to pull something like that out his ass) kakashi will hold his own against Sasuke but not before the fatigue sets in by overusing his sharigan to keep up with Sasuke and not before Sasuke bitches about his pain and how no one understands hi. Naruto will step in too save Kakashi not before bumping into Sakura and hear a final plea from Karin...we won't have to worry about Madara for right now, he is busy replacing his eye. Back to the battle Naruto will exchange a couple of blows not before Yamato steps in...(I know this is how kishi set it up) Madara come back and unveil his face without the mask!) This will be the shocker folks and answer a lot of questions! And now to sharigan user and the last akatsuki member will proclaim a war.if it plays out the way I'm thinking it...it could be more epic...but kishi will find some way to put kabuto/orochimaru into the mix! Knowing that man's ambition to have the sharigan he will attempt the impossible! A lil farfetched my opinions is...but its not impossible!

[poopdeville]

Danzou says hi.

Didn't Danzou kill off a bunch of guys on the way to the meeting? Yeah, he did. Danzou lost his second battle as Hokage.

[Archangel]

Didn't Danzou kill off a bunch of guys on the way to the meeting? Yeah, he did. Danzou lost his second battle as Hokage.
Cannon fooder doesn't count >_>

[Sidnne]

Danzou was never Hokage.

[UChessmaster]

Danzou was never Hokage.

oh?

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/450/17/

[Marik]

oh?

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/450/17/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/481/11/ < -- read the bottom of the page.

The Jounin never got to vote and make it official.

[poopdeville]

It's up to the Feudal Lord, not the Jounin, or even Danzou (though I guess he could have turned it down like Jiraiya did)

Admittedly, the Feudal Lord seems to have taken advice from the Jounin in the past at face value.

[Archangel]

http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/481-47/12

Both versions confirm, at best he was the interim hokage

[poopdeville]

Or maybe he was just comparing his ambitions to be better than Sarutobi to his life.

The Feudal Lord is king of his country. It is up to him. The Hokage is just his general.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/9/16/

[Sidnne]

Regardless of who the decision of who becomes Hokage is up to, Danzou himself said that he was never Hokage. Doesn't seem to be anything left to argue after that.

[UChessmaster]

Danzou himself said that he was never Hokage.

This was already addressed like... 1 post ago.

Just for the record, if you`re going to say Danzou is not hokage because the jounin didn`t voted, then neither is Kakashi...

[Sidnne]

This was already addressed like... 1 post ago.

Are you on crack? Or just being salty?

[UChessmaster]

Are you on crack? Or just being salty?

Right, i`m done with the argument, you win.

[digitalrurouni]

Sasuke vs Kakashi fight happens. Naruto shows up. Convinces Sasuke to stop being a bad guy. Sasuke turns. What all the 3rd hokage could not accomplish with Orochimaru, Naruto will accomplish with Sasuke. Note how Sasuke has come close to really doing unforgivable things...he has ALWAYS been stopped by someone. Almost killing Karin, almost killing Sakura etc. Its a sign that Sasuke has room for redemption. It will be Naruto and Sasuke v Madara.

[Idealistic]

And because of that redemption.... the manga will turn to shit... or rather, continue to be shit. I know the series is suppose to be about friendship and all..... but I honestly think they are taking this too far. People change, move on. Like what Obi-wan did to Anakin.

But we don't know the outcome yet, so I'll hold my breath.

[Stitch]

lol kakashi going to die for real this time

[Sam98034]

Sasuke vs Kakashi fight happens. Naruto shows up. Convinces Sasuke to stop being a bad guy. Sasuke turns. What all the 3rd hokage could not accomplish with Orochimaru, Naruto will accomplish with Sasuke. Note how Sasuke has come close to really doing unforgivable things...he has ALWAYS been stopped by someone. Almost killing Karin, almost killing Sakura etc. Its a sign that Sasuke has room for redemption. It will be Naruto and Sasuke v Madara.

I'm more leaning towards Sasuke is going to keep being evil...However, he is going to redeem himself in the end. Madara/Naruto will fight and Sasuke will somehow switch sides and kill Madara at a critical moment when all hope seems lost while also sacrificing himself and saving everyone because he was finally convinced by Naruto that revenge is wrong..

[Barumonk]

Kakashi can't be beat like a bitch in his first fight as Hokage, it would completely ruin the concept of appointing him

I'm agreeing with this. Kakashi would gain a lot of credit as 'Hokage' material if he were to be able to deal with Sasuke. Power differences aside, Kakashi is still more experienced, and he has the Mangekyo trumpcard. Sasuke has only dealt with it one other time, against Itachi, and Itachi's is genjutsu based so Sasuke had plenty of time to analyze the situation and break it. Kinda hard to stop and analyze a technique when it's ripping your arms off.

[samsonlonghair]

So close. Sasuke was so close to killing Sakura. I guess Kishimoto was just teasing us.

[Uchiha Barles]

The Naruto story has one very enduring constant: strength trumps all. It trumps experience, it trumps inventiveness, cleverness, it trumps numbers, everything. If there's a significant strength difference between opponents, the weaker opponent certainly cannot beat the stronger, but he also cannot hide from the stronger, cannot run from the stronger, cannot outsmart the stronger to any significant effect. The only time variables other than strength matter, is when the opponents are evenly matched in strength. There used to be this rock/paper/scissors theory going around about which fighter would be able to defeat which other fighter, but clearly that's been done away by a preponderance of evidence against that theory found in the manga. Strength far outweighs all else.

Right now, it's kind of difficult to gauge what Sasuke's strength is. He's been able to use, time and time again, his ultimate eye techniques. In fact, they were his most used techniques since the start of the fight against the kages. Kakashi, died trying to use his mangekyo less than a handful of times. I'm with everyone that if Sasuke is that strong, it's complete BS. Unfortunately, that would be perfectly in line with the manga. I don't want to see Kakashi lose, but I would not be surprised either way.

[Sidnne]

The Naruto story has one very enduring constant: strength trumps all. It trumps experience, it trumps inventiveness, cleverness, it trumps numbers, everything. If there's a significant strength difference between opponents, the weaker opponent certainly cannot beat the stronger, but he also cannot hide from the stronger, cannot run from the stronger, cannot outsmart the stronger to any significant effect. The only time variables other than strength matter, is when the opponents are evenly matched in strength.

Every Shikamaru fight contradicts this.

[poopdeville]

One Shikamaru fight contradicts the general pattern Uchiha Barles talks about.

He lost to Temari because he was out of chakra. He won against a random female during the Chuunin exam. He ran out of chakra when he tried to stop the 7 ninjas chasing after Naruto, Sasuke, and had to be rescued. He lost against the pink haired Sound Four girl because he ran out of chakra, and had to be rescued.

The only example of his smarts actually winning a fight against a strong opponent was against Hidan, who was dumb as dogshit to start with. And that was after Shikamaru and his team got creamed by Hidan and Kakuzu, to the effect of losing his sensei.

I disagree with Barles, at least partly though. Teamwork has been shown to work pretty well a few times. The team that finally took down Kakuzu is an okay example.

[Archangel]

The Bleach story has one very enduring constant: strength trumps all. It trumps experience, it trumps inventiveness, cleverness, it trumps numbers, everything. If there's a significant strength difference between opponents, the weaker opponent certainly cannot beat the stronger, but he also cannot hide from the stronger, cannot run from the stronger, cannot outsmart the stronger to any significant effect. The only time variables other than strength matter, is when the opponents are evenly matched in strength. There used to be this rock/paper/scissors theory going around about which fighter would be able to defeat which other fighter, but clearly that's been done away by a preponderance of evidence against that theory found in the manga. Strength far outweighs all else.
Fixed .

[Sidnne]

One Shikamaru fight contradicts the general pattern Uchiha Barles talks about.

He lost to Temari because he was out of chakra. He won against a random female during the Chuunin exam. He ran out of chakra when he tried to stop the 7 ninjas chasing after Naruto, Sasuke, and had to be rescued. He lost against the pink haired Sound Four girl because he ran out of chakra, and had to be rescued.

He beat the Sound girl during the chuunin exam when he knocked her out by banging her head against the wall using her shadow.

And in the other fights, especially against the flute chick, he completely outsmarted his opponents and essentially negated their superior strength, which allowed him to survive and ultimately win in the end, which does contradict Uchiha Barles' theory that a weaker opponent "cannot outsmart the stronger to any significant effect."

[Uchiha Barles]

There are a few things about shikamaru and his fights to consider.

1) I'm not at all convinced that the girl Shikamaru fought in the preliminaries was actually stronger than he was. If she was, it did not seem like she was CLEARLY stronger than he was. Their strengths were likely comparable.

The tactic you mentioned shikamaru using was also not all that brilliant. It seems like a basic tactic to use in conjuction with the powers he had. If you can cause someone to mirror your every move, the basic tactic is to cause your movements to be safe to you, but cause harm to them. Moving five steps back when there's solid ground behind you, but a precipice behind your opponent is in line with what he actually did, and quite basic for that technique. Wearing kunai on both legs when most opponents only wear them on one is another. That way, you grab a knife such that the corresponding leg of your opponent doesn't have one, and their grasping at air. Then, you walk up and stab them with the knife, while they "stab" you with nothing. Again, it's a basic tactic for that power.

2) The fight against Tayuya doesn't serve as a counter example either, because just like poop said, shikamaru needed to be saved. Him being saved was not part of his own calculations. As far as he was concerned, it was over for him. Shikamaru was defeated, but thanks to someone else coming in and saving him, he was not killed. Now, one could argue that Shikamaru was not defeated IF it was actually a part of his plan to simply last long enough until help arrived. It wasn't though. His plan failed, and thus his combination of intellect powers wasn't enough to defeat Tayuya...thanks mostly to Tayuya's strength.

There are two reasons I didn't mention Shikamaru in my earlier post. First one, Shikamaru is not just smart, he's EXTREMELY smart. In general, far smarter than any of his opponents, or any opponent you've seen in the Naruto world at all. A great deal was done to impress that point upon us. So with regards to Shikamaru, it's almost as if his intelligence is a power, and thus you could consider it as part of his "strength". I understand some of the arguments against that, but the story's development is such that it really is just a gimmicky power because NO ONE ELSE'S intelligence plays a significant role in the outcome of a fight unless, like I said before, the strengths of the fighters are comparable. And as has already been mentioned, even in Shikamaru's fights, for the most part, his intelligence didn't make him win.

Which brings me to my second reason. Even if you disagree that Shikamaru's intelligence can be considered a power of sorts, Shikamaru is an exception. One character in a story of many. I think every fight with the exception of one or two (probably one) Shikamaru fights conform to the generalization I made.

I'll also agree with poop that there actually were a good number of fights in which team work was used to defeat stronger opponents.

[rockmanj]

How about other events during the sound 4 saga? Neji outsmarted the spider guy, I thought. And speaking of Neji, Naruto vs. Neji contradicts your theory. Neji was obviously superior in almost every way (I guess if you want to say the Kyuubi made him stronger, you can, but it only gave him that chakra boost toward the end). Naruto won through deception and, as did Neji when he beat the spider dude.

[Uchiha Barles]

Neiji vs. the spider guy....I GUESS I'll have to allow that as a counterpoint. Never really liked that fight (Move from under the fucking spider...). Good point though, I forgot about that.

But for the Naruto vs. Neiji fight, indeed I do want to say the kyubi made Naruto stronger. The passive regeneration abilities it gives likely allowed him to take the pummeling neiji was giving him most of the fight. Furthermore, until the kyubi was released, Naruto was outmatched. It took the Kyubi's power to give Naruto an opportunity to make use of his cleverness. In otherwords, when Naruto finally used a power that demonstrated that he was strength wise comparable to Neiji, THEN his cleverness gave him the edge. Up until that point, no trick he had up his sleeve mattered in the slightest.

[UChessmaster]

The thing that bothered me a bit in this episode is how does Sasuke knows Sakura is a Medical ninja?

[rockmanj]

it trumps inventiveness, cleverness, it trumps numbers, everything. If there's a significant strength difference between opponents, the weaker opponent certainly cannot beat the stronger, but he also cannot hide from the stronger, cannot run from the stronger, cannot outsmart the stronger to any significant effect. The only time variables other than strength matter, is when the opponents are evenly matched in strength. .

Well, according to this, it seems that you mean strength in terms of "physical prowess and power". I would say that the kyuubi chakra only served to even things up a bit; but the actual battle came down to strength vs. subterfuge; and subterfuge and inventiveness won. Even with Neji's eye powers, superior technique and cleverness, it was a deception that defeated him. And I could probably think of some other examples, unless you count strength to also mean "special power", which mitigates things.

[Uchiha Barles]

I do count "strength" to include special power. I mean strength mostly in terms of how the anime uses the word, which usually involves more than just their physical prowess. That's partly why I made a bit of an argument for Shikamaru's intelligence to actually be included as part of his "strength" because his intelligence is special compared to just about everyone else.

[Archangel]

Why is it that people can't just admit that their point was stupid instead of trying to justify it with increasingly vague and misleading arguments?

You were wrong, happens to everyone, let it go.

[Uchiha Barles]

Why is it that people can't just admit that their point was stupid instead of trying to justify it with increasingly vague and misleading arguments?

You were wrong, happens to everyone, let it go.

Not that I'm interested in starting an argument with you, but I don't see either where I was vague, or wrong. Sorry man.

[Sam98034]

The Naruto story has one very enduring constant: strength trumps all. It trumps experience, it trumps inventiveness, cleverness, it trumps numbers, everything. If there's a significant strength difference between opponents, the weaker opponent certainly cannot beat the stronger, but he also cannot hide from the stronger, cannot run from the stronger, cannot outsmart the stronger to any significant effect. The only time variables other than strength matter, is when the opponents are evenly matched in strength. There used to be this rock/paper/scissors theory going around about which fighter would be able to defeat which other fighter, but clearly that's been done away by a preponderance of evidence against that theory found in the manga. Strength far outweighs all else.


I can definitely see why this might seem like the case, but I think it's only this way because it is so easy to overlook cases where this doesn't hold true. Naruto's whole Rasengan technique is not pure strength. It's a technique. It required inventiveness and cleverness on Naruto's part to learn. Power in the manga is either raw power, lots of chakra, or bloodline limits/innate talent. You can't say learned techniques are power; otherwise, you negate the fact you need inventiveness, cleverness, and experience to develop these techniques. You would in effect be saying that power, which includes experience, cleverness, etc.., always trumps experience, cleverness, etc...

Deidara (spl?) had much more raw power than Sasuke. He also had much more experience... He even was able to counter Sasuke sharingan. How did Sasuke win?

Turning it around, Gaara had much more raw power than Deidara.

What about the puppet guy? Was Sakura + Old lady much more powerful?

Sage-mode Jiraiya was a lot more powerful than Pain, but Pain had the upper hand as far as technique/inventiveness.

Going way back, was Sasuke really stronger than Kyuubi Naruto when Sasuke beat him?

There are many examples where the stronger person loses.

As far as a weaker opponent cannot run from stronger opponents, explain the very first Arc where Zabuza ran. Naruto escaped the first encounter with Itachi, Itachi got away from Jiraiya. The genins got away from the chakra prison in the Sasuke chase arc.

Yes. You do have a case with many examples, but if you look, you'll also find many counterexamples.

[poopdeville]

How did Sasuke win?
Didn't Deidara commit suicide after Sasuke neutralized his bombs?



Turning it around, Gaara had much more raw power than Deidara.


I don't agree. If Gaara had "much more raw power", he would have had chakra left over after protecting the Sand Village. I mean, Deidara made a bomb out of chakra. A bomb isn't a targeted attack. It goes off in all directions. Half of the explosion shot off into the sky. So Gaara only had to protect the village from about "half of" the effects of the bomb. Half of Deidara's chakra was wasted by that attack. In short, Deidara had at least twice as much chakra-using ability (either through capacity or efficiency) as Gaara + Ichibi.




What about the puppet guy? Was Sakura + Old lady much more powerful?


I'd call that team work.


Sage-mode Jiraiya was a lot more powerful than Pain, but Pain had the upper hand as far as technique/inventiveness.

This one is at best debatable. Why do you think Jiraiya was more powerful than Pein? Pein had 6 elements, the chakra of six men, crazy summons and resurrection techniques, etc. I do agree he used his strengths to his advantage. Jiraiya was there to challenge him, but ended up spending half the fight running away. I'd say that was a sign of Jiraiya's smarts and his strength. He knew he couldn't take Pein on 6 on 1, so he tried to split them up and pick them off. In the end they caught him and crushed his throat.


Going way back, was Sasuke really stronger than Kyuubi Naruto when Sasuke beat him?

Yeah, he was. Naruto REALLY REALLY wanted to bring Sasuke back. He would have if he could have. One of them got up and walked away from that fight, and one of them was carried away.


Yes. You do have a case with many examples, but if you look, you'll also find many counterexamples.

True enough.

[Sam98034]

The first one was retorical.
Gaara had much more raw power b/c of the 1-tail, regardless.
Yes, you're right about the teamwork. The point is that he was more powerful than they were.
Jiraiya kicked Pein's but after sage mode...only Pein came back and Jiraiy a couldn't figure out how to kill them. If you wan't to call Pein's techniques as more powerful, then he was more powerful than Naruto since control over life/death kinda does it as far as power goes.
Naruto has the 9-tiles, so he had more power than Sasuke.

Don't bother arguing back. You are right. I understand everything you said and your point of view. I believe we just have a different view of "power" so we would go back and forth arguing passed each other.

[Uchiha Barles]

@Sam: You actually have a pretty good point with the Jiraiya fight. While I don't agree that Jiraiya was clearly stronger than Pain, the reason I don't agree is because its hard to establish who was actually more powerful. But, that difficulty in establishing their strength, even relative to each other, makes it also difficult to establish the extent to which the other variables I mentioned (cleverness, inventiveness, etc.). They might've played a small role, or a very large role depending (at least in part) on whether or not the strength gap between the two is a large one or a small one.I think what I'm trying to say is that those other variables, when they make a difference, can actually make it hard to establish which fighter is stronger. I might actually have to concede the point.

@Archie: Now, wasn't what Sam (and everyone else who participated in the debate) a whole lot better than just going "rawr! You're wrong, quit it!" ^.~

[Assertn]

I'm pretty sure Jiraiya could've outmatched each Pain body one by one if it came to that. In that regard, Jiraiya was stronger. So how did Jiraiya lose? It was because of Pain's technique that overwhelmed it. Jiraiya's inability to land a hit on any single body because of their shared vision... his inability to even remove half the bodies due to the reincarnation technique...

Pain's jutsus ultimately gave him the advantage over Jiraiya. Then again, Jiraiya's jutsus are what gave him his strength in the first place. When it comes down to it, the same basic model works pretty much the same way its always worked: The paper/rock/scissors effect. No single jutsu overpowers every other jutsu every time.