Tsunderes: sick of them yet?

[Archangel]

For those of you who don't know what a tsundere is:


Tsundere (ツンデレ?) (pronounced /(t)sʌnˈdɪə(r)/ in English or /t͡sun.de.ɽe/ in Japanese) is a Japanese concept of a character archetype which describes a person with a conceited, irritable, and/or violent personality that suddenly becomes modest and loving when triggered by some sort of cause (such as being alone with someone). It can also describe a contradictory personality which is good-willed on the inside, but with a harsh attitude on the outside. Originally found in Japanese bishōjo games, the word is now part of the otaku moe phenomenon, reaching into other media such as anime, manga, novels, and even mass media.

I personally loved them when they first started popping up in anime and manga but now it's like an unspoken rule that every single show has to have one of these. Not only that, every strong female lead is also considered a tsundere by people who don't really understand the meaning of the word.

I say they should give it a rest already and start using them more sparingly.

[XanBcoo]

Moved to a more relevant sub forum.

Anyway I find most anime women annoying, tsundere or not.

[Archangel]

I wasn't sure where to post it because it's relevant to both anime and manga

[Sapphire]

I've always hated Tsundere

[shinta|hikari]

Sick of 'em. Used to love it, but after having completely seen 730+ different anime, it kinda lost its charm. That doesn't mean I hate a character just because she is a tsundere since there are more original versions out there (Hitagi-san!), but being a tsundere nowadays is more a minus than a plus for me.

[Yukimura]

EDIT @Above: I can't believe shinta|hikari has grown apart from the tsundere camp. Who will be my poster boy for tsundere fanboism now!?

I'm pretty tired of tsundere. In the beginning I found it kind of cute that tsundere characters crappy attitudes and behaviors pushed away the guys they wanted to be close to until they learned to stop being so bitchy and grew up some. I never liked the idea that a bitchy girl should be rewarded with a relationship while remaining a bitch at heart. To make matters worse it is often the case that the polite and supportive girls I tend to like from the beginning often get left in the cold whenever a tsundere gets the guy. If the tsundere at least had some character development and showed signs of growing up and out of her tsundereness then it wasn't overwhelmingly bothersome.

In more recent incarnations of the archetype though I feel like character evolution has been deemed bad for business (AKA sequels) so tsundere love interests have become more and more tolerant or even supportive of the bitchy behaviors their tsundere exhibit, leaving less incentive for the behaviors to be adjusted. Instead of growing out of the tsundere phase it seems stories focus on exploring the conditions that lead to the girl taking on a tsundere behavior pattern. This explanation of past events is treated as a carte blanche and the tsundere is accepted by her love interest despite/because of her issues with no real incentive to change or grow out of them.

This sort of thing invariably leads to my pet peeve of distasteful behavior being rewarded instead of corrected and more and more I am finding tsundere characters, and more specifically the shows built around them, tiresome and frustrating. The way things are generally set up I can't really blame the male characters for liking their tsunderes as it's just a matter of preference but it still rubs me the wrong way that the tsunderes 'get away' with being the way they are because their love interests happen to be written to facilitate their behavior instead of being written to encourage them out of it.

[MFauli]

Yeah, only exception is Tsunade (wow, worst pun ever, right).

@topic:

Im with XanBCoo, actually. Oh well, i have said it many times, but the fact that most of nowaday´s shows are about a girl being the lead character got tired very fast. The fact that often they´re tsundere (OR the COMPLETE opposite, theres no middleground) doesnt help.

[Kraco]

I'm not tired of them but I have to agree with Yuki on the point that too often these days they show little development from the bitchy mode to the love mode. I detest series that have an ending situation identical to the starting situation (that's mostly harem of course), and thus if the tsundere never changes it usually goes hand in hand with zero general development.

I like tsundere a lot when they do slowly change and shift to a personality mode more welcoming to the guy. Also a more "realistic" tsundere like Senjougahara is really nice. More like a damaged personality than a textbook anime personality.

[KrayZ33]

can't get enough of them, because it's always a fun moment when they show their more caring side.

"real" tsundere are fine... (Misaka, Rin, Asuka, Haruhi, Eri, Kannagi, C.C. Hitagi Senjōgahara (!!!!!) to name a few of them)

however, there are characters which overdo it... or "fake/force" it to much (Taiga, Sakura, and that one from valkyria chronicles.. there are more but I can't remember them)
that's a different story

but I will never get sick of them... it all depends on the character/look/story

to be honest I hate moe characters more.
especially their voices... but oh well, even they can be fun. for example in Haruhi S2 when Mikuru cries, her voice changes in a very funny way..

[Archangel]

CC isn't a tsundere >_>

More like a kuudere (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Kuudere)

[KrayZ33]

she is "tsun" at the beginning .... and "dere" at the very end in both seasons

edit: thats just a subclass of tsundere
the basics are the same... acting unlikeable on the outside at first, but on the inside, the boy/girl is a caring person

but characters who switch between these 2 personalities to often are annoying, or "not real" for me

[Pandadice]

yeah, when i first watched kugimiya rie tsunderes, i thought it was cute and funny.

but these days a lot of tsundere roles get taken waaaay too far, and it's just annoying..

and plus there's hardly any of the original meaning in the archtype anymore. a girl seriously just has to be shy and blush around the dude she likes, while being out-going around others.. people just see the blush and they're like "that's adorable!".

but it is really annoying to see it in every single thing these days.. but then, it's not like there's anything amazing coming out these days anyways :\


Yeah, only exception is Tsunade (wow, worst pun ever, right).

@topic:

Im with XanBCoo, actually. Oh well, i have said it many times, but the fact that most of nowaday´s shows are about a girl being the lead character got tired very fast. The fact that often they´re tsundere (OR the COMPLETE opposite, theres no middleground) doesnt help.

i don't really see a problem with female leads.. I mean, Michiko (michiko to hatchin) was a pretty solid character. I wouldn't call her a tsundere or an "opposite" of tsundere.. with that I wouldn't call Mari (TM 8.0), and Saki (eden of the east) tsundere. they both seemed like solid characters too. I don't think there's a problem with female leads in shows, I just think there's a problem with new shows :\

[MFauli]

I just think there's a problem with new shows :\

Now THAT i can definitely agree with :(

*still waiting for an anime that is as fantastic as important to its culture as NGE was*

These days, all we get are moe-anime and unoriginal-action-anime with moe-content. Seriously, if it proceeds like that, one day all we´ll get a straight forward hentai-anime >_<

Btw. i want to heavily agree that Taiga was a REALLY annoying example of a tsundere. Actually, you could also include the blue haired girl, too (whats her name, lol). Toradora was so cring-worthy for so many episodes because of Taiga´s behavior. Actually, now that i try to remember it, that went on until the very end, lol. Non-developing tsundere at its best (worst).

But i wouldnt count Sakura from Naruto as a "bad" example...thats just kishimoto´s inability to write a good script (remembers a certain love confession that was forgotten a chapter later).

[Ryllharu]

can't get enough of them, because it's always a fun moment when they show their more caring side.

"real" tsundere are fine... (Misaka, Rin, Asuka, Haruhi, Eri, Kannagi, C.C. Hitagi Senjōgahara (!!!!!) to name a few of them)
but these days a lot of tsundere roles get taken waaaay too far, and it's just annoying..

and plus there's hardly any of the original meaning in the archtype anymore. a girl seriously just has to be shy and blush around the dude she likes, while being out-going around others.. people just see the blush and they're like "that's adorable!".
I can't get enough of real tsunderes. But of course, that is the problem, the overwhelming majority of heroines labeled as "tsundere," aren't. The term has been completely tarnished, probably irrevocably, and a large part of this probably is the English speaking world falling in love with the term itself. They know what a Japanese made-up word is, and somehow that makes them so much more of an anime fan than someone who goes into Borders and reads manga on the floor. It's elitism at its finest, and of course I myself have been a part of it. I guarantee that the large majority of Western anime fandom didn't even know the term prior to Fate/Stay Night or possibly a later Rie Kugimiya-starring series. The character archetype has been around forever, the oldest I've seen so far is Madoka from Kimagure Orange Road (but she is a lot more than just a cookie-cutter tsundere).

I'm not going to single out anyone here, and I don't have to. People all over the place are completely mislabeling tomboys, random violent girls, stereotype American girls, and damn near everything as a tsundere. Just like Panadice said, a girl suddenly blushes, boom, she must be a tsundere.

They're in love with the term, any real character development be damned.


Actually, you could also include the blue haired girl [from Toradora], too (whats her name, lol). Toradora was so cring-worthy for so many episodes because of Taiga´s behavior. Actually, now that i try to remember it, that went on until the very end, lol. Non-developing tsundere at its best (worst).I would actually say that Ami, the blue haired girl, was the real tsundere of Toradora, and Taiga the fake. Ami is the one who slowly develops into caring for Ryuuji, turning from caring absolutely nothing about him, to even spoilers[provoking fights because she's so upset about all the indecision, jealous that she has nothing while the others string him along. ] Taiga just goes back and forth, not doing anything, making no real noteworthy progress. Ami has real development, shows some legitimate emotions, and of course...isn't the real lead, and not the one who gets all the attention as a tsundere, even if she is the only actual one in the series.

[shinta|hikari]

Yes, I agree with your assessment on Taiga and Ami from Toradora, which also means that I nod to your analysis of Tsundere in general. I couldn't have said it better myself.

The thing is, it is not only western fans that have butchered the term. Even Japanese viewers consider Taiga and her type (which I really dislike, sorry Rie) to be Tsundere. Instead of Tsundere being a narrative element tied into a character, it has become definitive of someone who simply isn't honest with their feelings. The earliest example that I can remember of this can be found in Doujin Work, where Najimi works at a maid cafe and says to her childhood friend who visits "I am not serving you because I want to! (blush)" or something along those lines, and everyone in the cafe goes, "Whoa, Tsundere."

Due to this, I find it difficult to simply lay blame on ignorant otaku wannabes in the western world, since the Japanese themselves, along with other Asian countries, buy into the currently degraded stereotype.

EDIT: Yeah, I miss Madoka too. The good old days...

@Krayz - Tsunderes can be moe characters too.

[MFauli]

Btw, the best male (are there male?) Tsundere of all anime is the School Days-guy, isnt he :P (claiming to have feeling for a certain girl, then at the end developing into someone who just honestly wants to fuck *oh yeah, i had to bring back this master piece of a show*)

[darkshadow]

Thats more like a deretsun

[KrayZ33]

@Krayz - Tsunderes can be moe characters too.

being tsundere is considered a "moe character" but thats not what I meant.

I was referring to the girls which wear glasses (most of the time), have big boobs and a *very* high voice plus a shy attitude... they do nothing and fail whenever they try to do something

[shinta|hikari]

While I think the term you used is a bit inaccurate, I completely agree with your dislike for those types.

[Pandadice]

yeah i dislike those characters too.. but i wouldn't call them moe. but of course, "moe" is used even more ambiguously these days than tsundere is.

i hate to take it off topic, but the only characters (and character types) that i'd consider "moe" (from my understanding and interpretation of the word) would be like Pino (ergo proxy), Henrietta (gunslinger girl), Yurie (kamichu) and those types. and now that i've gone and named three little girls, i have to clarify, no it's not a lolicon thing. lolis =/= moe. lolicon = sexual attraction, while moe can not be sexual, imo. which is why i find it annoying when people see shows like kaempfer with the ecchi fanservice, and they label it "moe" because of the big chested chicks.

[MFauli]

wait, what?
afaik "moe" is clearly relating to sexual attraction. Maybe i just got it wrong, but...whatever anime-series i watched that used the word "moe", it was relating to the above. Would love some clarification.

[Ryllharu]

It has always been my understanding that moe inspired a desire to want to protect the character who had moe characteristics.

Hence Pandadice usage of Hitosubashi Yurie and gunslinger girls. KEY series (AIR, Kanon, Clannad) of course are ideal for this as well.

[Kraco]

I certainly never considered sexual attraction to be a requirement for moe. I mean, something like Lucky Star is full of different (modern) moe archetypes but who would ever get a boner from watching Lucky Star..?

I think it's just a combination of the design and personality of a character that make it moe. If you find that design extremely pleasant and interesting, it's moe for you.

[Pandadice]

It has always been my understanding that moe inspired a desire to want to protect the character who had moe characteristics.

yeah, isn't that the common definition? the only way i really understand the whole "need to protect" sentiment is for like, characters that you watch and you get that heartwarming sensation of seeing something beautiful. thes the only way the "need to protect" definition has ever made sense to me.


I certainly never considered sexual attraction to be a requirement for moe. I mean, something like Lucky Star is full of different (modern) moe archetypes but who would ever get a boner from watching Lucky Star..?

exactly, thats how i see it.. if the character gets you off, then they clearly aren't moe.


I think it's just a combination of the design and personality of a character that make it moe. If you find that design extremely pleasant and interesting, it's moe for you.

well yeah it's all about personal preference :\.

but see the thing is moe is applied to these little girls, and people see that adn mistake it for being the same as loliconism. which then leads others to say "well, your moe is lolicon, my moe is knee socks or pigtails or glasses or large chests", and moe becomes synonymous with fetish :\

[Archangel]

exactly, thats how i see it.. if the character gets you off, then they clearly aren't moe.

I disagree, i don't think moe and sexy have to go hand and hand but i don't think they're mutually exclusive either

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd211/Zaku56/Suzumiya%20Haruhi%20No%20Yuutsu/AsahinaMikuru.png

Case in point

[darkshadow]

How is she sexy? >_>

[Ryllharu]

It's not Mikuru's body that makes her moe, it's the strange weeping sounds, cowering, and generalized weakness/helplessness for most people. Copy that to any character with a different physical appearance and the same thing exists.

You wouldn't say adult Mikuru is moe, would you? Her personality is very different. Tsundere and moe are both personality and demeanor traits. The physical appearance is largely inconsequential.

[Yukimura]

I had heard of the perversion of the term tsundere but I hadn't really internalized the extent of it until reading this thread. From what some of you are saying it sounds like it used to be the case that a 'tsundere' character was a character that went through a progression from harsh and hostile towards someone to sweet and caring over the course of a story as the characters interacted and presumably realized they were in 'love'.

The first time I ever heard the term it was in reference to girls who consistently responded to their feelings for a guy by being especially violent and/or rude and/or cold to him so that's all I've ever known of the term. Since that time I've seen more and more Kugimiya style characters and they always get labeled tsundere and their core behavioral trait seems to be that they are alternatively dere and tsun toward their love interest, often depending on which way the wind is blowing at the time. I ended up under the impression that that was the reason they received the label tsundere. What I find really interesting is that this original meaning sounds more like a potential character development path than an actual character archetype. I can't help but think that maybe part of the reason the meaning of the term has shifted is that many shows with romantic subplots focus less on telling complete stories with beginning,rising action, climax, falling action, resolution) and more on milking as many 'rising action with subclimax' seasons out of the same setting as possible. Lasting character development like growing up would seemingly get in the way of such a practice as it would hasten the end of the 'conflict' and thus the excuse for the romantic subplot to exist.

[Kraco]

I have no doubt of that. Although I reckon one reason is mangaka / studios noticing an aloof girl unhonest to her true feelings is a strong moe characteristic. Greedily they proceeded to stuff the poor original tsundere through a chromatograph, selected the Kugimiya style compound, concentrated it in an evaporator and the rest is anime history.

I mainly like tsundere when there's a change she will go down the development path of shifting from tsundere to tsundere. Although Senjougahara style is perfect for me as well like I said earlier. I dislike Kugimiya style characters, though, although I suppose it's not her fault but the fault of the morons behind the story.

[Archangel]

For those who chose the 3rd option, Tsundere 101 (http://animeacademy.wordpress.com/2008/05/27/moe-computing-research-center-mcrc-tsundere-computer-development/)