Movie: Avatar

[Sapphire]

Someone linked me to the trailer and I totally thought it would be for The Last Airbender, but it's actually a lot more interesting...

http://www.apple.com/trailers/fox/avatar/

"plot":


A band of humans are pitted in a battle against a distant planet's indigenous population.

Random pic from Avatar: http://thefilmstage.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/avatartrailer_15.jpg

[Penner]

Ye ive read almost everything there is about this movie and its going to be EPIC.

[XanBcoo]

I love James Cameron so much. I was skeptical about this movie and the hype surrounding it until I saw that trailer. This is gonna be cool as shit.

I'm going opening day.

[Munsu]

This movie has been getting a ton of hype for years, mainly because of the new techniques supposedly James Cameron is employing in this movie. The same techniques that he hopes to apply to a movie for Battle Angel Alita (Gunnm), if he ever gets to it.

[Animeniax]

Not digging the giraffe/fish people. Story looks interesting, if a bit chaotic. I'm not big on chaotic movies. I hate how people act in chaos.

[samsonlonghair]

I've been hearing about this movie for a few years now. I thought it would never get a release date. Some of the futuristic weaponry in that trailer made me think of Starship Troopers (highly underrated movie by the way).

[Stitch]

Holy shit.

James Cameron cannot be fucked with.

[itadakimasu]

Anybody else going to see this?

I'm thinking of taking my neice and nephews when they're here this weekend.

[Sapphire]

Hell yeah, going to go see it with friends tomorrow!! Can't wait.

[itadakimasu]

2 hours and 40 minutes. Prepare thy self !

[Sapphire]

I saw it. It was freaking awesome.

Everyone go see it!!

[Penner]

Damnit i want to see this SO BAD but, alas, i have no "movie-going" friends except one and he's off studying in Japan ;( ... guess i'll have to wait for a 1080p BluRay rip to hit the torrents.
(no way I'm watching this in anything less than HD)

[Munsu]

I saw it. It was freaking awesome.

Everyone go see it!!
So, it lives up to the hype?

[Dark Dragon]

I thought it was very good. The best movie since the Dark Knight in my opinion.

[Lucifus]

Excellent movie. The world portrayed was so unique and I pretty much enjoyed most all of it.

Second the Dark Knight comment. My only qualms were that the video quality wasnt anywhere near as sharp or bright as I could get at home.

When the blurays made available, this movie is gonna glow!:cool:

[Munsu]

Did you guys watch it in 3D? In an IMAX?

[Sapphire]

I watched it in 3D, I feel like it makes the colors deeper and more vibrant.

[Dark Dragon]

I didn't get a chance to since the 3D showing was at a time when my friend had to work.

I plan to go rewatch it again in 3D sometime next weekend.

[Foomanchew24]

Watched this in imax 3d last night and it was amazing. Once you get past the fact you are watching blue aliens you dont even relize that everything on thier planet is animated, it is that real. If you don't see it in 3d you will be missing out one of the most exciting cinematic experiences of your life up to this point. It is that good visualy. The story to me was like dances with wolves lite. This is not a bad thing, just dont expect it to make you think too hard like the first matrix or any deep thinking movie. Overall I thought it was a good dtraight forward story. Don't expect lots of twists and turns thats not what this movie is about. It is however a great movie. I highly reccomend it and I will be going to see it again next week as well. May even see it a third time and I almost never rewatch movies at the theater. Thats how good it is.

[Board of Command]

I got in late and had to watch it from the first row of the theater. Even then, it was still

FUCKIN' OMGWTF EPIC

[Psyke]

I got in late and had to watch it from the first row of the theater. Even then, it was still

FUCKIN' OMGWTF EPIC

Are all seats based on a first come first served basis?

I've yet to watch any movie in 3D, so this might be a good start...

[Yukimura]

Saw it in 3D pseudo-IMAX and the visuals were certainly omfg epic win. I was so drawn into the beauty of the characters and scenery that it never really crossed my mind that the aliens were completely digital constructs.

The story though was like a blending of every common action/adventure/heroic coming of age/being tamed by the savages trope into one movie with very slick special effects and setting. I was somewhat awed at how religiously the plot followed the archetype of its genre though I didn't see the predictability that came from that as a huge detractor save for a few scenes where being able to guess what would happen robbed them of their suspense and emotional impact. If I had to make one complaint though it would be that the actual execution of the final battle seemed unrealistic, even with the handicaps given to the human side to try and even things up. Still it was an awesome battle and I would gladly go back to see the movie again just for the final battle sequence.

One last thing, if you are a mecha fan this movie features some live-action mecha porn of the highest caliber I've ever seen in a live action. After seeing this and District 9 I am completely convinced that a live action Gundam or Macross movie could be made with amazingly realistic and gritty mecha battles.

[Pandadice]

just saw it.

that movie was pretty sweet, and I'm sure my local tiny movie theater didn't do the visuals justice.

but you're right about the predictability of the series. pretty much everything is predictable.. but that's not to say it isn't good. (can we mention spoilers?) when the panther came out and picked the chick up, that was really powerful.

lol "hello perfect society. let me teach you about war and revenge". ahh the touch of humans... xD. but no really, I loved the tree hugging green anti-war themes it had.

and what was the deal with the avatar-sized box of matches? did anyone else think those were kinda ridiculous? xD

also the seemingly over developed pilot.. seriously, her character got way too much time for what she actually did, imo <.<.... like when she's like "I didn't sign up for this" and peels out.. O_o

The visuals were pretty great.. but I mean, when you're making fake monsters look real, it doesn't seem like that'd be that difficult. cause it's like "those skeleton dogs aren't animated badly, they're just supposed to look like that", and it seems kinda easy to write off <.<.. but that's not saying they weren't good. I definitely wanna watch this in blu ray.

so yeah, over all worth seeing. Someone told me it's super similar to The Last Samurai, and if that's the case then I feel like actually watching through that movie for once (in stead of dropping out about 20 minutes in like I've done the first 3 times I've tried <.<)

[Board of Command]

so yeah, over all worth seeing. Someone told me it's super similar to The Last Samurai, and if that's the case then I feel like actually watching through that movie for once (in stead of dropping out about 20 minutes in like I've done the first 3 times I've tried <.<)
It's pretty much the same plot. Replace Jake Sully with Tom Cruise and blue aliens with white people.

[Dark Dragon]

It actually remind me of Dances with Wolves.

[Testarossa Autodrive]

I saw this on Sunday.

Wasn't exactly disappointed, but there was definitely a lot of unnecessary hype. I'd seen the story done before. The dialogue wasn't anything special and kind of pissed me off at times. The acting was pretty good, but not amazing. I did enjoy the graphics, though that seemed to be the highlight of the film. It did get a little long and drawn out. Had they done the story better or given me something innovative to stick around for, I doubt I'd've considered it an issue.

Overall, I'd give it a 7/10.

There were so many things they could have done better or different to take it over the edge, and yet they spent so much money to do stuff I'd seen dozens of times before.

[darkshadow]

Greatest movie ever... I have nothing else to say at this time, I'm still in awe.

[Lucifus]

I already commented; but I just have the come back and say it again. F*cking great movie.

Cannot wait for bluray! =)

[Munsu]

I saw this on Sunday.

Wasn't exactly disappointed, but there was definitely a lot of unnecessary hype. I'd seen the story done before. The dialogue wasn't anything special and kind of pissed me off at times. The acting was pretty good, but not amazing. I did enjoy the graphics, though that seemed to be the highlight of the film. It did get a little long and drawn out. Had they done the story better or given me something innovative to stick around for, I doubt I'd've considered it an issue.

Overall, I'd give it a 7/10.

There were so many things they could have done better or different to take it over the edge, and yet they spent so much money to do stuff I'd seen dozens of times before.
The hype was due to the "graphics" more than anything. In fact, that was the hype... the new techniques that Cameron has been working on for some time finally realized. Hopefully all this means a step closer to the Battle Angel Alita movie.

[Testarossa Autodrive]

Of course. It's just a little disappointing, even though I knew the other aspects of the film probably weren't going to shine as brightly as the visuals.

[Sapphire]

When I was watching the scenes at the human base I was definitely thinking, "Oh, they DEFINITELY have what it takes to make an Ender's Game movie! The only challenge is finding enough GOOD child actors".

[Logrus]

Haven't watched it yet but gonna go watch it for the first time 3D stoned out of my mind.

Is this a good idea?

[Idealistic]

The story has been done many times, yes, but the way angle they went about it made it all the better. It wasn't just "Advance nation invades weak nation", they threw a twist into it with another species and the whole Avatar premise. Add that with the great visual effects, and the story was refreshed and made the movie AWESOME.

Also, after just finishing an ethics class this semester and we also read "Against the Machine", a book on how the internet has taken over our lives, which also mentions Avatar in the making(book written in 2008), seeing Jakesully get absorbed into a "pretend" world was rather interesting.

Indeed, if you are sort of an outcast(Jake being handicapped) and are accepted in another world, real or fake, you would definitely become attached to it.

[UChessmaster]

I`m sorry but i can`t help but feel dissapointed by this movie, perphaps because of all the hype... can anyone that liked the movie mention 3 good things about it besides the cgi?

[Sapphire]

1) I loved the representation of future human technology. I got all giddy when that guy freakin' copy pasted with his hand.
2) I thought the acting was particularly good. I really liked the lead guys expression of emotions, as well as his chemistry with the lead female. It drew me in.
3) I LOVED the world of Na'vi. It simply seemed fun and amazing. If someone offered me the opportunity to have an avatar I'd definitely take the chance. The history of the world is both intriguing and touching. I loved seeing the assimilation of the human into the Na'vi culture. They had their own challenges within their culture as well as having to deal with challenges from the outside and adapt to it. The sense of escapism this allowed was phenomenal.

[Ryllharu]

I don't really know how specific you mean by CGI. Would that include the quality itself, or things like the fact that Cameron didn't go overboard on things thrusting out of the screen (the 3D cliche paddle and rubber ball, etc) and tended towards tasteful use of foreground versus background and atmospheric effects like ashes, pollen, or vegetation. Rather than outward, there was more use of illusory depth. Or do you include even the motion capture as well? There was a bit more too it than simply being "good" CGI.

That aside, the xenobiology was well thought out and supported by random dialogue throughout the movie. The 'evil' Colonel mentioned that Pandora had lighter gravity, and as such, everything on Pandora were giants to humans. Less strain on bones and vascular systems led the Na'vi to become giants, and most of the other animals too. I thought it was rather innovative that everything on Pandora functioned with bioluminescence. From the rhino things, the Na'vi, random bugs and most plants interacted with each other through flashes of light or iridescent body parts for displays. Anything and everything pulsed with electricity and light, just like the scientists were beginning to find out.

The toxic atmosphere added a nice touch to the movie, emphasizing that it was a hostile, alien world, in every way imaginable.

While the exploitation of native populations and environmental harmony were the bigger themes, the stuff Idealistic touched on above about virtual worlds and longing for them instead of the decidedly less enjoyable reality added good subtext to the movie as well.

Edit:
Saph caught what I completely forgot. The human technology was great too. Nothing completely overboard on the science fiction (cold sleep instead of warp drives or other FTL travel), HUD displays and portable screens like we're starting to get now, and almost all the military hardware flew on VTOL fans. Aside from the Avatar system, everything else is within a few decades of what we have today.

[Sapphire]

Very good points Haru, and it reminds me of this (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2009-12-24/denno-coil-gets-japan-1st-augmented-reality-campaign) article on Dennou Coil. And in general, I think it's amazing when fiction has an influence on the direction of technology.

On another note, just how much of Avatar was CGI? I thought that maybe the Na'vi actors were actually just in suits, like the actor for Smeagol (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbW-Zv_kR5Q) was in Lord of the Rings, but I am hearing all sorts of terms getting thrown around. And what exactly was the new technique?

[XanBcoo]

And what exactly was the new technique?
There could be more, but the one I've read most about was the idea to use small cameras to capture the actors' facial expressions.

Here's a neat little featurette about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2_vB7zx_SQ

And a much longer interview with Cameron: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aao0YSITuxc

Edit: The movie was really good. The story was cliche, but in a way that used strong character archetypes. Despite the fact that I knew everything was green screened, it was written in such a way that I felt emotionally attached to and invested in Pandora and the Na'vi.

A+ would watch again in super duper IMAX.

[Munsu]

Here's a blog post about Battle Angel Alita that explains a bit of the technology and techniques Cameron used for Avatar:
http://blogs.coventrytelegraph.net/thegeekfiles/2009/08/james-cameron-confirms-battle-1.html


"There are actually three technologies we designed from scratch for this movie. One was the fusion 3D camera system, which would have a big role in Battle Angel because it's more live-action by proportion. The other one is the facial performance capture, which would allow us to create Alita that way."

And he said the third and most important technological advancement was probably the Simulcam - "a real-time tracking system that used the motion-capture infrastructure on a live action stage, so that when I look through the eyepiece of my 3D camera, I see the set extensions as they will be."

He added: "We can even bring in CG characters in real-time, meaning actor-to-actor, meaning somebody's acting a CG character over here and I'm seeing him in my eyepiece interacting with an actor in a live-action shot.

"That's never happened before," he said. "For Battle Angel that'll be critical, or for any other film - maybe Avatar 2 - whatever else we film."

[XanBcoo]

I'd really love to see a sequel for Avatar. Cameron has proven that he can do sequels the right way.

Pandora is a world that really needs to be explored further.

[Ryllharu]

There could be more, but the one I've read most about was the idea to use small cameras to capture the actors' facial expressions.

Here's a neat little featurette about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2_vB7zx_SQ
Really cool stuff, I saw the movie without knowing exactly how they accomplished it.

For anyone who has read Neal Stephenson's The Diamond Age, this kind of technology sounds a lot like the precursor to "ractors." There actors are tattooed with embedded motion capture technology so they can take on any role from the comfort of a small sound stage. The makeup/costume is superimposed over their bodies the same way.

I found the part where Sigourney Weaver and Joel Moore likened this new style to stage acting really enlightening. A good enough actor shouldn't have any trouble with this or even green screens. However, there have been tons of other green screen movies where the acting is horrible, so it really is all up to the caliber of the actor you cast.

[Sapphire]

Wow from the description of Battle Angel Alita it sounds like Avatar was only pretty much a "test drive" from the gloriousness we will see in Alita. I am positively salivating at the thought of what's to come!!!

[Testarossa Autodrive]

It's awesome to see how they did it. The way the did the visuals was just absolutely stunning and I gave that, separate from the movie as a whole an 11 out of 10. It really was what kept me entertained despite the subtle annoyances like some shitty script writing and what not. If there's any hype around this movie, it's definitely around the visuals, but aside from that, there really isn't anything else to be wowed about.

[darkshadow]

Resident Evil 5's cutscenes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek46-XRsZ-8) were done in pretty much the same (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNLlwdKHK28&feature=related) way.... He even says that they have one of the 4 cameras in the world, the other 3 belonging to cameron, spielberg and zemeckis.
And the facial motion capture stuff has been around for awhile also (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYgLFt5wfP4&hd=1)

[Testarossa Autodrive]

Yeah, it has been around. It's just interesting to see the many different things they're doing with it.

[XanBcoo]

Here's an interesting read...

Apparently the original script for Avatar had a bunch of stuff that didn't make it into the movie. Key plot elements were also changed.

The article goes into these differences in depth, but these were the major changes:

For those who don't want to read this all, some bullet points. Read the entire piece for in-depth description and analysis, but these bullet points are the main, stark differences between Project 880 and Avatar:

- Earth and its environmental problems are explored
- We see Josh Sully's Avatar being born
- It's revealed the Avatar program exists to train Na'vi to be an indigenous workforce for the Corporation, since it's so expensive to send human workers
- There are more humans, including a bioethics officer on the take, a video journalist, a head of the Avatar program and a second military dickwad
- There is an Avatar controller who is burnt out because his Avatar died with him in it. He committed Avatar suicide because he had fallen in love with a Na'vi girl who had been killed by the military
- The Avatars have a Na'vi guide named N'Deh, who is sleeping with Grace
- Grace survives the soul transfer
- Josh Sully gains the Na'vi trust by being a member of the community. He also excels in a major hunt
- Josh Sully shows his leadership not by taming a dragon but by leading a raid on Hell's Gate to rescue prisoners
- Josh Sully isn't the only Na'vi to ride a big dragon
- Pandora is a living entity and it sees the humans as a virus; it has been mobilizing the plants and animals to attack all along because it wanted to force the humans out
- There is no unobtainium beneath Hometree. The military just wants to wipe out the local Na'vi to send a message to all the tribes that they must be obeyed.
- Some of the humans and the Avatar controllers rise up in the final big battle
- Josh Sully tells the Earth that Pandora will give any humans that return a disease that will wipe out humanity

Source and full discussion here (http://chud.com/articles/articles/21969/1/PROJECT-880-THE-AVATAR-THAT-ALMOST-WAS/Page1.html)

[Assassin]

If they go ahead with a sequel to Avatar, i'd really like them to explore the oceans of Pandora....hell, even just a nature docu on pandora would be awesome.

[Testarossa Autodrive]

Now that they have a better grasp on the process of the visuals, I'd appreciate them focusing a little more on the character and story development, which, unfortunately, took a backseat to the graphics.

[Sapphire]

Philosophical (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryHvg-6Wy2A&feature=sub) discussion of Avatar what?

[XanBcoo]

The hell is up with that guy's accent? It's all over the place (coincidentally just like Sam Worthington's in this movie). The way he says his R's is clearly an affectation, but his regular accent sounds like it's American or Canadian.

Anyway that's an interesting summary of the growth of Jake as a character in the movie, but I disagree with some of his points about Empathy.

Mainly, the only reason Jake was about to become the Toruk Makto was not by empathy or passive harmony with the animals, but by exploitation (his trick of catching it) and domination. I suppose the Toruk did "choose" him early in the film: "It will try to kill you," but it was he, with his human tendency to dominate his environment that gave him courage, who became the Toruk Makto. I think there's something to be said for that.

[Testarossa Autodrive]

I was thinking his accent sounded a little off as well.

As for the video itself, there were definitely some interesting points that I agree with, but some of the things he mentions just didn't add up. I want to see the movie again after thinking more deeply about it and being disappointed with some of the elements, buuuut that would be another 7-10 bucks depending on if and when I do want to see it. :3

[itadakimasu]

Avatar was amazing.

[itadakimasu]

Here's an interesting read...

Apparently the original script for Avatar had a bunch of stuff that didn't make it into the movie. Key plot elements were also changed.

The article goes into these differences in depth, but these were the major changes:


Source and full discussion here (http://chud.com/articles/articles/21969/1/PROJECT-880-THE-AVATAR-THAT-ALMOST-WAS/Page1.html)

Thanks Xan. Anybody who has seen Avatar would probably find that interesting. I wonder how much of the original stuff they considered keeping? Avatar as it is runs 2 and a half hours... so you'd figure some of this stuff would add a good 30+ minutes minimum to the run time; or even make them consider splitting this epic movie into 2 parts.

It would have been good to show where Jake was coming from though... He makes reference to earth as being black at some point in the movie, but it doesn't mean anything because the movie starts w\ him in space already. And the writer of that article points out that this also shows why Jake is so taken with Pandora, because the earth he comes from doesn't have any plant life like that.

But I guess this is like when you read a book, and then watch a movie or vice versa and you're like... why did they change that?!

They probably should have kept some of the stuff in there, especially if they're going to refer to things that they cut out of the movie.

[animus]

Watched it a couple days ago in IMAX 3D, and got drunk as hell the same night.


Simply put, the movie is beautiful. No movie comes close to it's visual fidelity, which I guess is a given considering the budget the movie took and the amount of planning for development it's been in (10 years so I hear?).

The story quite obviously is not the strong point, it is very predictable. I still feel it was ridiculous how a former Marine, would so easily give up his race just because he spent 3 months and found some tall alien chick. Sure, it did show a good job of how simply beautiful Pandora is, and the way the N'avi live, but there wasn't any real solid transition that made him throw away his race. Sure, he could finally have his legs and all, but this is a Marine we're talking about, fight and die for your country and I guess in this case Planet?

I don't know, but still I was also expecting a lot more action. Couple friends told me there would be almost non-stop action, but there was really only one scene and it was near the end of this very long movie.

Anyways, besides my certain dislikes of the movie, I was totally immersed in the beautiful environments, the N'avi culture, the wildlife, etc. I enjoyed the movie greatly still.

[itadakimasu]

I still feel it was ridiculous how a former Marine, would so easily give up his race just because he spent 3 months and found some tall alien chick.

Read the article xan posted. "Project 880" was supposedly supposed to begin on earth w\ Sully so you can see what a wasteland earth has become in the year 2154. This would help develop his love for the pandoran world. It also says that there was originally no promise to have his paralysis fixed

It works in the movie, because you realize that he does have the option to go back to earth and regain the ability to walk and it becomes a defining point in the movie.

[XanBcoo]

I still feel it was ridiculous how a former Marine, would so easily give up his race just because he spent 3 months and found some tall alien chick. Sure, it did show a good job of how simply beautiful Pandora is, and the way the N'avi live, but there wasn't any real solid transition that made him throw away his race. Sure, he could finally have his legs and all, but this is a Marine we're talking about, fight and die for your country and I guess in this case Planet?
I think it would have been ridiculous if he had gone back to his Human life. What possible argument could you make for his return?

He came from a dirty and bleak Earth that had literally no use for him, his brother (and likely only family) was dead, and he was crippled and handicapped to the point where his muscles were severely atrophied. Even on Pandora, he didn't fit in. Grace and the scientists didn't want him around because he was just a Marine, and Col. Quaritch had no use for him aside from his mission because he wasn't a Marine. He seeks acceptance from both groups and finds it in neither.

Then he's figuratively and literally reborn as a Na'vi. He takes his first tottering steps out into the bright world with his new body and working legs. He's so ecstatic that he ignores protocol in favor of feeling the dirt under his toes. That alone would have been enough, but then he's completely accepted by a new society. He bonds, once again figuratively and literally with the beings of Pandora. He's taken in as an Omaticaya and becomes a respected member of their society. He spends 1/3 of the entire movie immersed in their culture and then the last 1/3 as its savior. Not only does he have value, but he's also found acceptance and experienced biological empathy with other living beings. There's no "solid transition" because it happens gradually over the course of 2 hours.

You're talking like he just took a short 1 hour vacation on Pandora and decided on a whim to stay there. The movie pretty explicitly demonstrates that he has nothing to gain and absolutely everything to lose by returning to his human life.

But yeah, I guess it would make sense to go back to his life as a cripple after his mutiny. If he's not thrown in prison, I guess he could find himself a nice desk job. He might miss the love of his life back on Pandora, but that's a small price to pay for not throwing away your race.

[animus]

He had surgery lined up for him to repair his spine as soon as he completed his assignment.

You make it sound like it's easy to betray your race that you were born into lived some odd 30+ years with. He spends 3 months with aliens and falls in love with an alien, and the experience of that culture along with the ability to use legs in a body that's not actually his own culminates as enough reason to betray your own race? I don't buy it.

Sure the humans were oppressive, despicable, etc. But like they said in the movie, if they decared war (which they did) the humans would keep coming back. There is no way the Na'vi would win a war. This human group was merely an industrial mining company who hired a small PMC. The ending made it look like the humans weren't coming back for retaliation, considering Jake gave up Turuk or whatever that giant red flying creature he used.

But according to your logic, the ability to walk again in a body and race that is not your own to spend your life with an alien wife among aliens who you've only spent 3 months with is worth the price of killing off and waging war against your own very race just because Earth is barren and desolate.

I still don't buy it. Not to mention he fell in love too easily with Netyri and her with him. Sure, they may be humanoids but they're still not human. And 99% of the time attraction comes first and foremost through physical/sexual attraction. I guess Jake Sully's just a furry and a weeaboo at heart.

[Testarossa Autodrive]

I'll give 'em 6 months.

[Sapphire]

I think it would have been ridiculous if he had gone back to his Human life. What possible argument could you make for his return?

He came from a dirty and bleak Earth that had literally no use for him, his brother (and likely only family) was dead, and he was crippled and handicapped to the point where his muscles were severely atrophied. Even on Pandora, he didn't fit in. Grace and the scientists didn't want him around because he was just a Marine, and Col. Quaritch had no use for him aside from his mission because he wasn't a Marine. He seeks acceptance from both groups and finds it in neither.

Then he's figuratively and literally reborn as a Na'vi. He takes his first tottering steps out into the bright world with his new body and working legs. He's so ecstatic that he ignores protocol in favor of feeling the dirt under his toes. That alone would have been enough, but then he's completely accepted by a new society. He bonds, once again figuratively and literally with the beings of Pandora. He's taken in as an Omaticaya and becomes a respected member of their society. He spends 1/3 of the entire movie immersed in their culture and then the last 1/3 as its savior. Not only does he have value, but he's also found acceptance and experienced biological empathy with other living beings. There's no "solid transition" because it happens gradually over the course of 2 hours.

You're talking like he just took a short 1 hour vacation on Pandora and decided on a whim to stay there. The movie pretty explicitly demonstrates that he has nothing to gain and absolutely everything to lose by returning to his human life.

But yeah, I guess it would make sense to go back to his life as a cripple after his mutiny. If he's not thrown in prison, I guess he could find himself a nice desk job. He might miss the love of his life back on Pandora, but that's a small price to pay for not throwing away your race.
Great reply Xan. Hey I would totally ditch the human race for that no questions asked. :D

WHO'S WITH ME!

[XanBcoo]

But according to your logic, the ability to walk again in a body and race that is not your own to spend your life with an alien wife among aliens who you've only spent 3 months with is worth the price of killing off and waging war against your own very race just because Earth is barren and desolate.
I think you really misunderstood the decision Jake had to make. His choice was not "Go back to being a human with legs or remain with the Na'vi and wage war on humans." There was literally no point in the movie where he was capable of making that decision.

Quaritch promised Jake his operation, then proceeded to destroy the Na'vi Hometree, mudering handfuls and destroying their home and way of life. Then he launched an attack on the Tree of Souls, threatening their physical link with the planet and primary means of subsistence. This was largely due to Jake's previous inaction, but the events of the story still force Jake into a decision.

His choice was then "Turn a blind eye to injustice or defend the world he was now literally bonded to." An entire hour and a half of the movie is devoted to showing why Jake would choose the latter option. Defending against injustice is not "betraying your race" and I can think of no logical argument why Jake would have not defended the Na'vi, ex-marine or no. After that point, he had literally no reason to return to being a broken and unwanted human. And even if he had, he would have returned to an Earth where'd he'd face ramifications for his actions. After killing Quaritch (even in self defense), his option for surgery was no longer present. His decision to defend the Na'vi nullified his deal with Quaritch.

He didn't "betray his race" in the same way a white girl from a conservative family doesn't betray their race by marrying a black man. He made a decision and lived with the consequences. It just so happens his decision was a moral one, at least from the narrative's perspective.

Now, you can argue about the implicit arguments in those consequences. The film intentionally blurs the line between "dreaming" and "reality" and does so from the get go. By the end of the movie it seems to be showing the idea of leaving behind a feeble body in favor of a perfect escapist reality in a favorable light. You can argue about the subtext all you wish, but Jake's motives are pretty explicitly justified in terms of the plot. There's absolutely no questioning why he would stay.

Your argument about Jake falling in love "too easily" is ridiculous and really not worth getting into.

[animus]

Jake's operation was set in stone before we knew they were going to destroy home tree. The promise happened before Jake and the scientists moved to Grace's old camp where they would link to their avatars. It was very early when he got promised it.

The destruction of Home Tree was due to Jake's betrayal. They were bull dozing the trees down earlier, but it enraged Quatrich that it was Jake's avatar that did damage to the bulldozers. Sure they might've destroyed Home Tree regardless, but that's because of the somethinganium (can't remember the name) deposit under the tree. I'm sure they'd have no reason to destroy the tree of souls of Jake didn't flee there considering it is in the Flux fields. Have you forgotten the point of Jake's entry into Na'vi society? It was to blend in, be trusted, and figure out a bargaining chip. Quatrich's mission on top of that was for him to relay structural data of Home Tree to him, which he did at the beginning at least.

The movie uses the term race very loosely. This is not betraying your race, this is betraying the entire human species in favor of another species of humanoids. An hour and a half of the movie wasn't dedicated to showing why he would choose ANY decision. It was merely a look into his undertaking in another world, in another body, among non-humans. But then according to your logic, why are we not in Darfur, Myanmar, etc. defending the injusticed? Just because injustice is there does not mean you HAVE to take part in it.

Jake IS betraying humans. There's no other way to sugar coat it. He killed humans, to protect another group of indigenous humanoids. Let's face it. He is an ex-Marine. He trained, lived, breathed, and believed he would die under the motto to protect his country, his planet, and Humans. Your analogy is ridiculous. The situations are totally different. A more akin analogy would be animal activists that ask for the death penalty for humans that host underground animal fighting rings or companies that do animal testing. Sure those are morally wrong, but to me the life of another animal will NEVER equal the life of a human being.

He'd have no ramifications when he returned to Earth if he had not interfered with the mining plans to begin with, and he would have had his legs back. Sure he wouldn't have his alien 15 foot blue alien body, alien tail, and he'd live on a barren and desolate homeworld but are those really the price to pay to betray your own kind? Of course you'd think his motives are justified in terms of the plot, they make for a good subtext to a movie, and even more so a reason for a huge ass battlefield action movie scene.

My argument about him falling in love too easily is not ridiculous at least by my standards. The process in which he fell in love with something not human is akin to you falling in love with your dog, or to an anime character, etc.

None of your reasons justify betraying humans. If he believes the life of Na'vi are worth more than the price of humans, he was never much of a Marine, much less a human. But I guess that's true considering he gave them up for the well-being of the Na'vi. Lastly, the movie's ending sugar coats it with Jake giving up his Turuk, but his actions possibly caused out the destruction of the Na'vi. The movie has us believe that humans aren't going to come back and wage war, and turn a blind eye because they deported humans off the planet. Sure if the Na'vi decided to not wage war they'd probably be enslaved (which was originally the plan in the original script apparently), but it's arguable I guess if it beats total annihilation or extinction.

[Munsu]

What is apparently being ignored here is that these were a group of mercenaries hired by a company. He didn't betray the marines, he didn't betray his country, he betrayed a immoral company and its mercenaries.

So I guess if I somehow ended up being alied with a group of terrorists, I should just be loyal to them. That's pretty much what he was facing.

[animus]

PMC or not, they're humans. So you'll wage war on all of humankind on the basis of immorality? You might as well wage war against all the countries on Earth at this very moment, seeing as how all humans are immoral. Just because we sanction the slaughtering and production of various domestic animals for consumption does not mean it's not immoral.

He did betray the Marines, ex-Marine presently or not he betrayed the code, as soon as he betrayed humans for any non-human he abandoned his humanity. Which seeing as he did, is not that big a deal to him. He didn't somehow end up being allied with them. He chose to ally with them, and waged war versus that which he swore to protect, corrupt immoral privatized company and it's mercenaries or not.

[Ryllharu]

Jake's operation was set in stone before we knew they were going to destroy home tree. The promise happened before Jake and the scientists moved to Grace's old camp where they would link to their avatars. It was very early when he got promised it.

The destruction of Home Tree was due to Jake's betrayal. They were bull dozing the trees down earlier, but it enraged Quatrich that it was Jake's avatar that did damage to the bulldozers. Sure they might've destroyed Home Tree regardless, but that's because of the somethinganium (can't remember the name) deposit under the tree. I'm sure they'd have no reason to destroy the tree of souls of Jake didn't flee there considering it is in the Flux fields. Have you forgotten the point of Jake's entry into Na'vi society? It was to blend in, be trusted, and figure out a bargaining chip. Quatrich's mission on top of that was for him to relay structural data of Home Tree to him, which he did at the beginning at least.
Quatrich and Selfridge (the company man) betrayed Jake first. They told him that he would have the time he needed to try to convince them to leave. They ran the bulldozers in without stopping and seeing if they could contact Jake to proceed as they had planned. The two of them were going to destroy Home Tree anyway, whether Jake could get them out or not. Quatrich hated the Na'vi and everything on Pandora. He was thrilled once he had an excuse to destroy the tree of souls.

There was only one reason the Na'vi accepted Jake. There was absolutely no way he could, "blend in and be trusted," unless they allowed it. They allowed only because he was the first "dreamwalker" that was a warrior from human culture. Being a culture of warriors themselves, this was the only kind of human who could be taught to respect their ways. The only kind of human who could survive learning to understand them. They showed Norm getting jealous about how much progress Jake had made because he was just a dumb grunt and couldn't even speak their language, but over time even Norm accepted that only warriors were going to truly interact with the Na'vi after what Jake found out. Scientists were not allowed close to Home Tree until Jake convinced them to let Grace back in, and she was only allowed because of all the good she had done for the Na'vi with her school.


Jake IS betraying humans. There's no other way to sugar coat it. He killed humans, to protect another group of indigenous humanoids. Let's face it. He is an ex-Marine. He trained, lived, breathed, and believed he would die under the motto to protect his country, his planet, and Humans. Your analogy is ridiculous.
...
Sure those are morally wrong, but to me the life of another animal will NEVER equal the life of a human being. Jake was an ex-Marine. I'm not sure how much more clear that was made in the first 30 minutes. There are no Marines on Pandora. They are all private military contractors hired by the mining company. Jake even made a negative remark that they weren't Marines, they were there for the pay. Nor can you make the conclusion that the Na'vi are animals like Quatrich likes to claim. Even the company man didn't say that. You cannot compare sentient life with a clear and defined culture to animals.


My argument about him falling in love too easily is not ridiculous at least by my standards. The process in which he fell in love with something not human is akin to you falling in love with your dog, or to an anime character, etc. Again, this isn't something that you can equate to a non-sentient creature. An anime character is a static thing. Sentient life is something completely different. That analogy fails completely. The situation is far closer to falling in love with another human from a culture completely different from your own. An American going to the tribal hills of Pakistan, a Maasai going to Japan, a Lithuanian going to live with the Huli. That would be more accurate than equating them to pets or a painting on a wall.


The movie has us believe that humans aren't going to come back and wage war, and turn a blind eye because they deported humans off the planet. Sure if the Na'vi decided to not wage war they'd probably be enslaved (which was originally the plan in the original script apparently), but it's arguable I guess if it beats total annihilation or extinction.It never mentioned humanity, because this wasn't a Humanity versus Aliens situation. It was a Encroaching Corporate Entity versus Native Population. There are still humans at the base, they are still in contact with humanity. The Company was thrown off Pandora at their own incredible expense. They would have to spend more money to hire a new group of military, a new spacecraft to travel back, and new equipment that the Na'vi and remaining scientific community will undoubtedly commandeer or more likely destroy. It is not a matter of humanity as a whole feeling threatened or attacked. Perhaps that will be the case down the line, but it was a private company involved in a private venture. That venture failed.

[animus]

Your understanding of the definition of sentient is wrong. Dogs and cats are sentient beings. Humans are sentient and animals.

No, Jake chose to betray the Na'vi by himself. He agreed to help Quatrich scout out the Home Tree's columns, it's infrastructure, etc. He knew they wanted to destroy it, and he agreed to it much to the dismay of Grace with the promise of a repaired spine. Grace knew that Jake was working for Quatrich. Sure, Quatrich bulldozed early, but Jake had already known prior that there was no way of convincing them to move as evident in one of his Vlogs that there was nothing the Na'vi wanted from them. But he didn't say anything until it was too late.

Since your understanding of sentient is false, an anime character according to your definition is sentient, as they can be given personality, beliefs, feelings, as dictated by an author. They can be a fully rounded character, though not real or alive. Heck, there's even that guy in Japan that wants to marry this anime character.

I don't know how many times I've said this already, but the Na'vi are NOT humans. Just because they are humanoids does not mean they are humans. Thus the analogy of love between a different ethnic group and their differing cultures is not prevalent. They are NOT humans. Sure, they are an indigenious species of humanoid that have their own dogma, religion, caste, etc. but they are not humans. They don't even live on Earth. They can learn to speak English, but again, they are not humans.

Jake is an ex-Marine, most likely based on the fact that he is crippled, making him a former marine. He is in it for the money, evident by his presence there. He says the operation to repair a spine isn't cheap.

It will turn out to be a Humanity versus Aliens situation. Jake said so himself in the movie. Privatized company and PMC aside, you don't honestly believe that there will be no retaliation as soon as word goes out that an alien race waged war and killed hundreds of humans, and probably blew billions of stockholder, not to mention whatever country still exists sanctioned their actions through sponsoring through funds.

But, anyways I'm done arguing these points seeing as how the movies standard action plot fare isn't worth the amount of racking my brain for tidbits to remember.

[Lucifus]

""Sentient" redirects here. For other uses, see Sentient (disambiguation).

Sentience is the ability to feel or perceive subjectively. The term is used in philosophy (particularly in the philosophy of animal ethics and in eastern philosophy) as well as in science fiction and (occasionally) in the study of artificial intelligence. In each of these fields the term is used slightly differently.

In eastern philosophy, sentience is a metaphysical quality of all things that requires our respect and care. In science fiction, sentience is "personhood": the essential quality that separates humankind from machines or lower animals. Sentience is used in the study of consciousness to describe the ability to have sensations or experiences, known to some Western academic philosophers as "qualia".

Some advocates of animal rights argue that many animals are sentient in that they can feel pleasure and pain, and that this entails being entitled to some moral or legal rights." - Wikipedia

You an advocate then mate?

Almost every choice Jake made was the morally correct one. The only reason the mercenaries didn't proceed earlier is that the company would come under fire with bad publicity and probably intervention by the real ruling military itself.

I highly doubt if that story came to light, the company would reap in any profits.

On your point with war against the Aliens. War? The general public would never stand for it. More like every single scientist and mercenary on that planet would be given the death penalty. It was obvious they were in the wrong.

[Dark Dragon]

This pretty much boil down to the fact that you are comparing the Na'vi to a bunch of animals rather than other human beings. That is your personal feeling and the main reason why you can't accept the actions that Jake took. The Na'vi possess every trait that a human being would aside from their physical appearance. You can in fact re-skin them as a group of giant humans and their society would not change.

If you take this film and put it into a human settings where a group of tribals are being oppressed by a private company in order to obtain resources then would Jake's actions feel plausible? If you can't come to see why the lives of the Na'vi can be equate to humans then any further argument would be pointless.

[Ryllharu]

Your quibbling aside, I will admit I made a poor choice of words. I initially chose sapience (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapience), traditionally used in fiction to describe "human-like" qualities, but figured I'd get shit from you when you whipped out a dictionary definition.

Replace "sentient" with "sapience" in my post. It makes no difference.

[animus]

""Sentient" redirects here. For other uses, see Sentient (disambiguation).

Sentience is the ability to feel or perceive subjectively. The term is used in philosophy (particularly in the philosophy of animal ethics and in eastern philosophy) as well as in science fiction and (occasionally) in the study of artificial intelligence. In each of these fields the term is used slightly differently.

In eastern philosophy, sentience is a metaphysical quality of all things that requires our respect and care. In science fiction, sentience is "personhood": the essential quality that separates humankind from machines or lower animals. Sentience is used in the study of consciousness to describe the ability to have sensations or experiences, known to some Western academic philosophers as "qualia".

Some advocates of animal rights argue that many animals are sentient in that they can feel pleasure and pain, and that this entails being entitled to some moral or legal rights." - Wikipedia

You an advocate then mate?

Almost every choice Jake made was the morally correct one. The only reason the mercenaries didn't proceed earlier is that the company would come under fire with bad publicity and probably intervention by the real ruling military itself.

I highly doubt if that story came to light, the company would reap in any profits.


Wikipedia annotation of sentience aside.

From the dictionary;
Sentience
–noun
sentient condition or character; capacity for sensation or feeling.

No I'm not an animal activist.

[Lucifus]

So....what, you would work the Navi like mules? Slaves?

[animus]

So....what, you would work the Navi like mules? Slaves?


No, I wouldn't. But considering that was originally the plan for them in the original plot it would've made for a better movie.

You're giving humans an awful lot of trust. You don't honestly believe that just because they saw aliens being attacked and destroying their home for a valuable ore, while hundreds of their own species died, deported, etc. that they would be scorned because of it? You'd be surprised by the amount of Americans and other people still believe the war in Iraq is still justified. Not to mention the story is going to be spun into a better light.



Aaaaaaanyways, as I said earlier I'm done. You can continue arguing how I'm wrong, but I won't reply back on it seeing as how apparently I'm completely wrong in stating that the Na'vi aren't human, and their lives do not equate to the life of a human.

[Dark Dragon]

Aaaaaaanyways, as I said earlier I'm done. You can continue arguing how I'm wrong, but I won't reply back on it seeing as how apparently I'm completely wrong in stating that the Na'vi aren't human, and their lives do not equate to the life of a human.

Never said it was wrong, but rather that it was your opinion. I simply stated that any further argument into this topic would be pointless since you can't seem to understand why some would consider the Nav'vi humans while the other can't see why you would not equate them to humans.

edit: In my previous post, i gave some example as to why others might see them as human beings.

[XanBcoo]

Aaaaaaanyways, as I said earlier I'm done. You can continue arguing how I'm wrong, but I won't reply back on it seeing as how apparently I'm completely wrong in stating that the Na'vi aren't human, and their lives do not equate to the life of a human.
The Na'vi are human by any definition other than "homo sapien". What is your argument that they're sub-human? That they have cat ears?

Anyway, it was only a matter of time before something like this happened:

http://www.learnnavi.org/

I guess this is the 2010 generation's Klingon.

Edit: And yes, my Linguistic curiosity has caused me to read through everything available on that site.

[Munsu]

Here's the trailer for the sequel, it looks awesome:
http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1931118

[Testarossa Autodrive]

I would totally see that.

[Sapphire]

I was actually concerned, shocked, and freaked out at the thought that there was an Avatar II trailer already. But my hopes are only increased to see the sequel. <3

[Animeniax]

I was actually concerned, shocked, and freaked out at the thought that there was an Avatar II trailer already. But my hopes are only increased to see the sequel. <3

I think they pretty much resolved everything in the first movie, and a second movie would only be a larger sky people force invading and destroying the N'avi. Unless they used the "Avatar" concept in another setting, I think a second movie would simply be for money.

[XanBcoo]

You speak like a man who's never seen Terminator 2 or Aliens.

[Sapphire]

I heard the next Avatar movie will be on a different planet.

[Animeniax]

You speak like a man who's never seen Terminator 2 or Aliens.

So would Avatar II entail time travel or would the sky people invade another planet and recruit another Avatar-pilot who goes native to save the natives?


I heard the next Avatar movie will be on a different planet.Even on a different planet, Avatar II would be like Matrix: Reloaded: More of the Same.

[DeathscytheVII]

Here's the trailer for the sequel, it looks awesome:
http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1931118

That's just overloading with Awesome :D I'd so see that

[Munsu]

I like what you did with my nick there...

[Penner]

Just saw Avatar for the first time last night and it was nothing short of spectacular!

Liked the story, sure there were similarities to Pocahontas/Dances With Wolves, but i have no problem with that.

I liked all the actors and their performances, and i was pleasantly surprised that Grace turned out to be one of the good guys, from first impressions when she met Jake she came of as kind of a bitch, but that changed completely later on.
(also, Sigourney Weaver is freaking hot as a 10 foot blue alien)

That Colonel Quatrich dude is fucking hardcore lol
And the guy playing him is 57(!) years old, god damn o.O

And then we have the visuals, my god the visuals, everything was so perfectly done with such detail that the only way i can describe them as would be 'eyegasm'-inducingly beautiful.

Awesome movie.

[itadakimasu]

Finally saw Avatar in Imax 3d...

WOW. It was my first 3D movie and it blew me away. I was on vacation and we were @ Moody Gardens in Galveston Tx and it just happened to be a part of the day pass package we got :)

[samsonlonghair]

I downloaded Avatar recently. Sure, it was good, but it's nowhere near as good as everyone's making it out to be. Avatar is no better than any other CGI-filled summer blockbuster. I thought the characters were all pretty bland. By the end of the movie I didn't really care anymore which characters lived and which ones died.

The special effects were great, but that doesn't make a great movie.

[UChessmaster]

I downloaded Avatar recently. Sure, it was good, but it's nowhere near as good as everyone's making it out to be. Avatar is no better than any other CGI-filled summer blockbuster. I thought the characters were all pretty bland. By the end of the movie I didn't really care anymore which characters lived and which ones died.

The special effects were great, but that doesn't make a great movie.

THANK YOU!!!!!

[Assassin]

You have to remember, the movie was never mean to be great in terms of storyline. Infact, everything about it was pretty standard. It was just meant to be a visual masterpiece, what with the new technology and all, and in that it succeeded.

[Testarossa Autodrive]

It succeeded very well in terms of graphics--that much is a given. However, I agree that it didn't deserve all of the hype it received as all of the other aspects to the film took a back seat and were either average or even sub par *coughdialoguecough*

Anyway, it was nice to look at, but it's a shame that big budget movies now a days are only really being made for the purdy pichurs.

[itadakimasu]

it was leaps and bounds ahead of best picture of the year " The Hurt Locker ", in every possible way.

[UChessmaster]

it was leaps and bounds ahead of best picture of the year " The Hurt Locker ", in every possible way.

Yeah sure, but then you woke up, special effects are supposed to be a complement to the movie not the main (and only) attraction.


You have to remember, the movie was never mean to be great in terms of storyline. Infact, everything about it was pretty standard. It was just meant to be a visual masterpiece, what with the new technology and all, and in that it succeeded.

I guess the problem i have with this movie is a personal one, the movie was amazingly hyped, knowing absolutely nothing about it, i went to the movie expecting something with a storyline that will blow me away since a movie story is everything to me... and then they showed me Pocahontas in 3D.

The "world" of Pandora was a personal disappointment for me, the "imaginative" world consist of monkeys... with 4 arms, horses... with 6 leg, a panther... thats really big, a jellyfish... that floats on air instead of water, etc(and let`s not get into the flying rocks with waterfall coming from nowhere). To be honest my 4 year old cousin can come with a world just like Pandora, nothing special about it.

But to give credit where credit is due, the actors were fantastic, Neyitri for example read her lines with such passion that it was inspiring, shame the script still sucked (lol Jake is the chosen one?)

Ok i`m done with my rant.

[depthcharge]

I am one of the viewers who didnt know much going in. But I would say I enjoyed the visuals, and the immersive environment.(i wasnt watching the 3d version) but still I like it.

Storyline, outsider trying to colonise the aborigines, yeah this is very common story, however, the novel idea of a super connected nerve system, that is fucking amazing.

I like it.

[Munsu]

Three sequels currently being planned, and they'll be filmed consecutively.

http://www.showbiz411.com/2012/06/26/james-cameron-will-film-three-avatar-sequels-at-the-same-time

[Y]

Yeah sure, but then you woke up, special effects are supposed to be a complement to the movie not the main (and only) attraction.

Hot damn. Gonna quote this blast from the past and cosign it. Yeah guys Avatar isn't as good as John Carter. You know, the movie that supposedly was one of the worst of all time? It was a very competent execution of the formula, which is more than I can say for Avatar's wooden, dead script and unlikeable, idiot protagonist.

Here's what I don't get. Why is Sigourney Weaver going to be in the next three Avatar movies? Her character is fucking dead (spoiler: you just read an Avatar spoiler) and even if she got absorbed by the life tree, what is her role going to be exactly? Weird voiceovers near the end of the 2nd act of each movie? Possessing random catpeople so they start acting like Ripley from Alien? Opening monologues like she is the female Morgan Freeman?