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Archangel
Thu, 07-16-2009, 06:42 AM
Franky House

Online viewing (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/366/01/)

michelous
Thu, 07-16-2009, 07:01 AM
aizen is gonna be harder to beat than that

Carnage
Thu, 07-16-2009, 07:08 AM
Is it just me or is it not that impressive that they're ripping apart mere gilligans that Ichigo could defeat around episode 12?

RyougaZell
Thu, 07-16-2009, 08:40 AM
Is it just me or is it not that impressive that they're ripping apart mere gilligans that Ichigo could defeat around episode 12?

Because Ichigo had to unleash so much power that Ishida had to drain him because he was going to burst? (... that didn't read well...)

Against ripping their guts with minimum effort?

iMUSTbeTHEdevil
Thu, 07-16-2009, 09:08 AM
I was a little unimpressed as well. Although it was cool to see their different fighting style. Seeing a meno's get their face ripped in half was pretty sweet. I see Shinji going down here real quick, if that is even Aizen.

Archangel
Thu, 07-16-2009, 09:14 AM
Because Ichigo had to unleash so much power that Ishida had to drain him because he was going to burst? (... that didn't read well...)

Against ripping their guts with minimum effort?

Still dude... episode 12

I didn't see what the big deal was either

UChessmaster
Thu, 07-16-2009, 09:26 AM
Shinji defeating Grimjow back then was a far more impressive achievement since he was... you know... an Espada...

Nadouku
Thu, 07-16-2009, 09:27 AM
Meh, a chapter spent on destroying Gillians. I await the next chapter.

RyougaZell
Thu, 07-16-2009, 09:28 AM
Still dude... episode 12

I didn't see what the big deal was either


Blame Kubo for this pacing.

But I still think that, while umimpressive, how can we compare Ichigo taking a lot of time, and potentially killing himself, to defeat a Menos Grande / Gillian versus the Vizard killing them off like mosquitoes?

Archangel
Thu, 07-16-2009, 09:31 AM
He hadn't even released his sword yet! He was below the level of Byakuia / 5

These guys are former captains who have released their hollow powers...

Dark Dragon
Thu, 07-16-2009, 10:48 AM
You know, i can't help but feel that this would be far more interesting if Aizen did something like reveal that he had a back-up set of Espadas and that they are far stronger than all of the current ones, but then all of the Vaizards suddenly appear and wipe them out. Sure it wouldn't be very original since other manga has done just that, but i think it would be far more fun to watch than them killing a bunch of gillians.

This isn't at the disappointing level yet, just rather underwhelming so far. I really hope Kubo doesn't screw this up, but i won't hold my breath.

RyougaZell
Thu, 07-16-2009, 11:22 AM
He hadn't even released his sword yet! He was below the level of Byakuia / 5

These guys are former captains who have released their hollow powers...

Ichigo's sword is permantly in Shikai.

And the point here is... you say Gillians are nothing because Ichigo killed one at the beginning of the series. He almost got killed as well.

The Vaizards are killing them as if they were ants. Why can't you see the difference?

Remember this is the mere 2nd time Gillians have been fought in the manga. Forget all the weak filler Gillians of the anime.

Heck... the current captains ARE scared of Gillians and can't understand how Ichigo beated before the Rukia Rescue arc.

UChessmaster
Thu, 07-16-2009, 12:33 PM
Ichigo's sword is permantly in Shikai.

And the point here is... you say Gillians are nothing because Ichigo killed one at the beginning of the series. He almost got killed as well.

The Vaizards are killing them as if they were ants. Why can't you see the difference?

Remember this is the mere 2nd time Gillians have been fought in the manga. Forget all the weak filler Gillians of the anime.

Heck... the current captains ARE scared of Gillians and can't understand how Ichigo beated before the Rukia Rescue arc.

When he defeated the gillian he was in normal state, it was long before getting shikai.

Gillians ARE nothing at this point let`s review the hollow strength tree again shall we?

Hollow > Gillian > Adjuchas > Vasto Lorde

The last 2 or 3 can become arrancar by the hogyowhatever and increase strenght, Ichigo with a mask faced Dordoni (SP?) who is probably an Adjuchas and guess what happened?

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/253/16/

Now the Vaizard who have FAR more control over their mask are fighting the LOWEST level Menos and i`m suposed to be surprised? let`s face it, this episode was filler.

As for the captains being surprised this show that they are idiots or futher proves my "filler" theory further, ice kid alone defeated several enemies that are higher rating than a mere Gillian.

rockmanj
Thu, 07-16-2009, 12:44 PM
No, Ichigo's sword is indeed always in Shikai. That's why its so big.


In rare cases, a zanpakutō, once released, will remain in that state indefinitely. This is due to the vast amount of spiritual energy the possessor has that cannot be finely controlled upon generation of their zanpakutō, as such the zanpakutō is described as a constant released form. The only known Shinigami with constant release zanpakutō is Ichigo Kurosaki and Kenpachi Zaraki. Shinigami with a constant Shikai form also don't seem to need a release command or even know their zanpaktou's name.

UChessmaster
Thu, 07-16-2009, 01:04 PM
No, Ichigo's sword is indeed always in Shikai. That's why its so big.

It is but that`s not the point.

Unless i`m confused, we`re talking about ichigo`s sword when he fought the gillian

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/49/09/ that is NOT his shikai, the reason it is so big is because he has a huge reiatsu, the relation between a sword`s size and it`s owner reiatsu was pointed twice in the manga at least.

enkoujin
Thu, 07-16-2009, 01:14 PM
Yes, we all know that Ichigo's word is always in Shikai. This was after the training with Urahara after he learned his Zanpakuto's name. What we are talking about was the somewhat dormant spiritual power that was stimulated with Rukia's own powers that allowed him to become a Shinigami in the first place. The only reason why his unreleased Zanpakuto was so big in the first place was because Ichigo is unable, even to this point in the story, to control the radiation of his immense spiritual powers.

RyougaZell
Thu, 07-16-2009, 01:19 PM
When he defeated the gillian he was in normal state, it was long before getting shikai.

Gillians ARE nothing at this point let`s review the hollow strength tree again shall we?

Hollow > Gillian > Adjuchas > Vasto Lorde

The last 2 or 3 can become arrancar by the hogyowhatever and increase strenght, Ichigo with a mask faced Dordoni (SP?) who is probably an Adjuchas and guess what happened?

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/253/16/

Now the Vaizard who have FAR more control over their mask are fighting the LOWEST level Menos and i`m suposed to be surprised? let`s face it, this episode was filler.

As for the captains being surprised this show that they are idiots or futher proves my "filler" theory further, ice kid alone defeated several enemies that are higher rating than a mere Gillian.

Ichigo's sword WAS already in Shikai. He just didn't know its name.

And my points isn't to be surprised that the Vaizards can kill them. When the hell did I say that?

My point was that everybody is saying: "So? Ichigo can kill a Gillian too"

Yes. Ichigo killed one. He almot got killed too.

The Vaizards kill them as if they are ants.

There is NO way to be surprised at this. But don't say its nothing because Ichigo could do so too. He almost GOT KILLED. There is no comparasion.

UChessmaster
Thu, 07-16-2009, 02:04 PM
Ichigo's sword WAS already in Shikai. He just didn't know its name.

Ichigo`s sword was not in shikai already >>. Where are you getting that? it`s permanentelly Shikai AFTER he adquired said transformation.

Unreleased sword :http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/1/51/

Shikai: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/67/09/

When he fought the gillian he did NOT had Shikai. As for the Ichigo got almost killed... so? Ichigo was lightyears weaker than what he is now. You didn`t said we should be surprised but you`re saying Vaizard can kill Gillian like ants as if it`s some sort of achievement at this point. I`m sure "recently adquired Shikai" Ichigo can beat Gillians as if they were ants.

Here`s an analogy for you of what i`m seeing right now: Imagine that at the end of DBZ general tao appears and fights Trunks, Trunks defeated him easily and that is suposed to be a proof of how amazingly strong Trunks has become. The readers inmediatelly thinks "uhmmmmmm that`s not that big of a deal" and you answer "But General Tao was a threat to goku back in Dragon Ball! and Trunks defeated him like an Ant!"


There is NO way to be surprised at this. But don't say its nothing because Ichigo could do so too. He almost GOT KILLED. There is no comparasion.

But Ryouga that is exactly what they are at this point of the story, NOTHING. Ice kid defeated Luppi who is undeniably stronger than any Gillian JUST like an ant ages ago.

rockmanj
Thu, 07-16-2009, 03:33 PM
Like the bleach wiki post said, some shinigami don't need to release their shikai because of their superior spiritual power, such as Ichigo and Zaraki. I don' have time to check the manga, but I'm pretty sure someone explained that to him. It is basically a matter or poor control on his part, like his father said: (Bleach manga; Chapter 187, page 17 - Isshin comments on how captain-level Shinigami must control the size of their zanpakutō.) Its also been said that knowing the name of your sword can increase its power. What you showed was that knowing increased the power of Ichigo's shikai, but didn't turn his shikai on (as its always released).

Prof. Chaos
Thu, 07-16-2009, 03:56 PM
This is all an illusion, designed by Aizen to test the current battle state of his Espada. Come on people, isn't it obvious?

/sarcasm

UChessmaster
Thu, 07-16-2009, 03:58 PM
Like the bleach wiki post said, some shinigami don't need to release their shikai because of their superior spiritual power, such as Ichigo and Zaraki. I don' have time to check the manga, but I'm pretty sure someone explained that to him. It is basically a matter or poor control on his part, like his father said: (Bleach manga; Chapter 187, page 17 - Isshin comments on how captain-level Shinigami must control the size of their zanpakutō.) Its also been said that knowing the name of your sword can increase its power. What you showed was that knowing increased the power of Ichigo's shikai, but didn't turn his shikai on (as its always released).

But the wiki article is against you, look at the first sentence, it remains released AFTER it gets released for the first time. The first time it got released was with the Urahara training thus the sword looking diferent, after that it never got to base state because that is it`s permanent Shikai state.

RyougaZell
Thu, 07-16-2009, 03:59 PM
Ichigo`s sword was not in shikai already >>. Where are you getting that? it`s permanentelly Shikai AFTER he adquired said transformation.

Unreleased sword :http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/1/51/

Shikai: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/67/09/

When he fought the gillian he did NOT had Shikai. As for the Ichigo got almost killed... so? Ichigo was lightyears weaker than what he is now. You didn`t said we should be surprised but you`re saying Vaizard can kill Gillian like ants as if it`s some sort of achievement at this point. I`m sure "recently adquired Shikai" Ichigo can beat Gillians as if they were ants.

Here`s an analogy for you of what i`m seeing right now: Imagine that at the end of DBZ general tao appears and fights Trunks, Trunks defeated him easily and that is suposed to be a proof of how amazingly strong Trunks has become. The readers inmediatelly thinks "uhmmmmmm that`s not that big of a deal" and you answer "But General Tao was a threat to goku back in Dragon Ball! and Trunks defeated him like an Ant!"



But Ryouga that is exactly what they are at this point of the story, NOTHING. Ice kid defeated Luppi who is undeniably stronger than any Gillian JUST like an ant ages ago.

The sword didn't change because he entered Shikai. The sword changed because it was his own power, not combined with the power he took from Rukia.

I don't have the time to seek it, but I remember Yoruichi saying he ALWAYS had Shikai on. Not just after he regained his powers.

Anyway. By your logic Ichigo should have easily defeated Nnoitra. After all, Ichigo beated Zaraki. And Zaraki beated Nnoitra. Therefore.... Ichigo... gets almost killed by Nnoitra.

You say Gillians are nothing. And I agree. But does Kubo? Even his golden boy, Hitsugaya, of who you speak highly of because he defeated Luppi, is afraid of the Gillians.

My point NEVER was to say that the chapter was good.

The bitching began because the people here began to compara Ichigo's fight with a Gillian with this fights. Yes, Ichigo was weaker back then. But he didn't kill one in a second. Heck... he didn't even kill it. Could he kill one now? Most likely. But we've never seen him kill one in ONE FREAKING SECOND. That is my bitching. How can we compare a fight of the main character from when he was weak to this ONE SECOND BATTLE?

Sigh...

UChessmaster
Thu, 07-16-2009, 04:14 PM
The bitching began because the people here began to compara Ichigo's fight with a Gillian with this fights. Yes, Ichigo was weaker back then. But he didn't kill one in a second. Heck... he didn't even kill it. Could he kill one now? Most likely. But we've never seen him kill one in ONE FREAKING SECOND. That is my bitching. How can we compare a fight of the main character from when he was weak to this ONE SECOND BATTLE? Sigh...

He still defeated dordoni in a second though :p

Oh well, at least we agree the episode was bad, that`s all that matters.

Death BOO Z
Thu, 07-16-2009, 04:43 PM
this could have so impressive, 320 chapters ago.

seriously, Gillians might look cool and awesome, but after it's been specifically told that a captain shouldn't have any problem defeating five of them, this battle loses all glory.

rockmanj
Thu, 07-16-2009, 06:15 PM
But the wiki article is against you, look at the first sentence, it remains released AFTER it gets released for the first time. The first time it got released was with the Urahara training thus the sword looking diferent, after that it never got to base state because that is it`s permanent Shikai state.


No, the article doesn't. At the bottom, if you note, it says that there are special shikais that are always released, that of Ichigo and Zaraki. Also in that article, it states that a Soul Cutter looks like a normal sword until release. Many people noted how large Ichigo's sword is, and yea, I think Yoruchi said something of the sort.

UChessmaster
Thu, 07-16-2009, 08:12 PM
No, the article doesn't.

Yes, yes it does.


In rare cases, a zanpakutō, once released, will remain in that state indefinitely. This is due to the vast amount of spiritual energy the possessor has that cannot be finely controlled upon generation of their zanpakutō, as such the zanpakutō is described as a constant released form. The only known Shinigami with constant release zanpakutō is Ichigo Kurosaki and Kenpachi Zaraki. Shinigami with a constant Shikai form also don't seem to need a release command or even know their zanpaktou's name.

I`ll repeat the key words here "once released" as in, AFTER it`s released THEN it stays released.

The last part refers to Kenpachi`s case, the circunstances for Ichigo`s and Kenpachi`s are diferent.

EpyonNext
Thu, 07-16-2009, 08:23 PM
This is all an illusion, designed by Aizen to test the current battle state of his Espada. Come on people, isn't it obvious?

/sarcasm

As much as this post was meant to be facetious, it's probably correct. :\

rockmanj
Fri, 07-17-2009, 02:15 AM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/120/07/

I don't know what other evidence you need than this. It is very clearly stated that Ichigo's soul cutter is in constant release, similar to Kenpachi. So, really there's nothing more to it.

UChessmaster
Fri, 07-17-2009, 05:19 AM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/120/07/

I don't know what other evidence you need than this. It is very clearly stated that Ichigo's soul cutter is in constant release, similar to Kenpachi. So, really there's nothing more to it.

She meant the sword in it`s current state... guess what? that one is already shikai, if she said so when he had the white sword that would certainly be proof.

If you can find or point out where in the manga ANYONE states the white sword he had at the begining is Shikai (seriously, anyone, even Don Kanonjin) then i won`t argue any further.

Also, what do you have to say about the "once released" part of the article you bringed yourself?

rockmanj
Fri, 07-17-2009, 07:13 AM
I'm only going by the things we know about Soul cutters and Bleach, which are,

1.) That they are almost always normal swords when in an unreleased state (Ichicgo's sword has been huge since he took Rukia's, but I admit there is no proof either way that it is definitely one or the other; however a man-sized sword is not normal).

2.) Ichigo has such high spiritual energy, that it bleeds into his friends, with the added benefit/problem of making his sword huge and uncontrollable, and unable to be sealed).

3.) His soul cutter properties are akin to Kenpachi's, who has a constant shikai (which was described as permanent).

Like I said, there is no way to prove definitively (or not) that the absolutely huge sword he had at first was in shikai or not. Of course we know that after it broke, it changed, but I'm with RZ, saying that the new one represents him using his own powers and also harmonizing with his sword (which was said can increase the power of your sword by itself).

darkshadow
Fri, 07-17-2009, 08:13 AM
No Uchess is right, Ichigo's dad even says that all captain class shinigami have to control the size of their swords ( note, unreleased ), otherwise they would be swinging swords the size of skyscrapers.

Ichigo is leaking is reiatsu like an open faucet which was the cause for his sword (unreleased) to be much bigger then it should've been. It simply wasn't bigger because he was using Rukia's power.
As soon as it becomes released, the sword takes on a set shape/size. So even though Ichigo still leaks reiatsu, he doesn't have to worry of having a huge fking sword cause it is now always in shikai (set shape/size).

Carnage
Fri, 07-17-2009, 02:51 PM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/15/

"captains can destroy them with ease"

Narasho
Fri, 07-17-2009, 02:53 PM
I will be beyond shocked if Shinji's attack has ANY effect whatsoever. (other than Aizen completely dominanting him)

digitalrurouni
Fri, 07-17-2009, 03:01 PM
I think the whole point of this chapter was just a warm up act. Most people did not know about the existence of these vaizards in the first place at least that is what it seems to me. I mean only Urahara and Isshin had talked about the 'masked warriors'.

And also the way the Vaizards were tearing apart the Gillians is quite impressive too. It was just not the fact that they were dispatching them but more the ease of with which they were dispatching them I think. Either way I thought it was a good chapter. Cant wait to see what happens next.

Archangel
Fri, 07-17-2009, 05:03 PM
I will be beyond shocked if Shinji's attack has ANY effect whatsoever. (other than Aizen completely dominanting him)

I'll give shinji props if aizen even draws his sword to block

twister
Fri, 07-17-2009, 05:10 PM
k heres what i thought about this episode: yea maybe a captain can easily beat them, but now can a captain kill one with his bare hands and feet? how about jump around and kill like 3 within a second with no sword? now if he was using his zanpakuto yea easily. and also heres another thing to think about. its a non moving picture, i bet in the anime once this comes out that scene will be extremely fast like maybe 5-10 seconds of battle, as in extremely fast speeds to kill them, not running around 1 by 1

Death BOO Z
Fri, 07-17-2009, 06:56 PM
and also heres another thing to think about. its a non moving picture, i bet in the anime once this comes out that scene will be extremely fast like maybe 5-10 seconds of battle, as in extremely fast speeds to kill them, not running around 1 by 1

you're naive.

you really think the anime will waste a complete chapter and turn it into ten seconds of anime?
I'll be surprised if this doesn't turn up as one and a half episodes (I don't watch the anime, so you'll have to tell how it turns out in a year or so, after the anime gets done with the filler crap).

a vaizard masking is a power up beyond the level of Bankai, captains don't take out their bankai to fight against small fries. it was basically shooting poisoned fish in a barrel with a carpet bombing.

enkoujin
Sat, 07-18-2009, 03:23 AM
I have noticed Kubo's pacing recently. He has slotted in double pages in every chapter since 352 (excluding the other ones before 352) - particularly from 364 to 366 here. There have been two double pages per chapter in these three chapters containing the Vizards unmasked, masked and charging toward the Gilllians.

-=DS=-S.W.A.T3
Thu, 07-23-2009, 12:26 AM
i still loved the idea of how shinji just flew to aizen took off his mask and said time to finish this...slash!!!