Naruto Chapter 454

[unandpw]

Online Viewing
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/454/01/

[enkoujin]

Well, that most certainly downplayed Madara as the Mizukage and making Danzou look more like Madara.

[Sam98034]

It made some of the other kages look kinda weak sauce. There's another chick, though. I wonder if she's a grandma in disguise as well.

[Prof. Chaos]

Mizukage is freaking hot.

Also that hint with Orochimaru leads more towards Danzo and Mandara being linked. Maybe some failed experiment left him in split bodies.

[XanBcoo]

Well, that most certainly downplayed Madara as the Mizukage and making Danzou look more like Madara.
Yeah seriously, the Mizukage's inner thoughts revealing Feminist ideals really confuses me. I wonder what's up with that.

I do love that she's a woman though. Naruto needs more strong female characters. Also I like that that Chojiro is one of the 7 Mist-nin swordsmen. He seems to have turtle-like qualities.

The other guy's haircut must be popular in the Mist village. Isn't that Kisame's hairstyle?

This was a nice chapter overall. I liked the buildup and the establishing of new characters. It makes me wonder how all the Kages regard one another. Do they squabble? Do they respect each other?

[darkshadow]

Ooh, Mizukage is HAWT, move over hinata I've got a new favorite now :3.
Seriously though, killing Anko? Danzou has some balls.

[unandpw]

Mizukage - hot - yes. She's a guy though...or rather, "A man..."

Her little boy follower is a seven swordsmen. Quite cool. He'll probably battle Suigetsu.

[chet_chetty]

I dont know about Danzou and Madara sharing split bodies but it seems Kabuto has the knowledge to restoring Danzou's right arm.

[poopdeville]

The Tsuchikage looks like one of the toads.

[Carnage]

Perhaps Tobi was a previous Mizukage that Kisame simply recognized.

[XanBcoo]

Perhaps Tobi was a previous Mizukage that Kisame simply recognized.
Ahhh, this makes a lot of sense. This chapter really made the case that this girl isn't Madara. Why would we have heard what she was thinking? It makes more sense if she is simply the "new" Mizukage.

Can someone help me find the chapter where Kisame talks to Madara/Mizukage? I want to make sense of this but I can't find it at all.

[poopdeville]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/404/01/

damn i'm bored

[Assertn]

If Madara isn't the mizukage anymore then I don't know what the relevance was in him ever having been the mizukage in the first place. Also, that other mist guard looks like he's wearing Haku's outfit.

Oh, and everyone from the rock village is hideous.

[TwisT]

Ahhh, this makes a lot of sense. This chapter really made the case that this girl isn't Madara. Why would we have heard what she was thinking? It makes more sense if she is simply the "new" Mizukage.

Can someone help me find the chapter where Kisame talks to Madara/Mizukage? I want to make sense of this but I can't find it at all.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/404/01/

Anyways great chapter. Like alot of the new characters. Let's just see where this take us.

[shinta|hikari]

I don't get why everyone likes this chapter. It was just a character introduction chapter (which was fine), plus Naruto getting beat up because of his love for Sasuke (which brought the whole chapter down for me). That was a really dumb compromise. Not only is it pointless, it insults the feelings of those ninjas.

[Dark Dragon]

Mizukage - hot - yes. She's a guy though...or rather, "A man..."

Her little boy follower is a seven swordsmen. Quite cool. He'll probably battle Suigetsu.

I took that as more like she is sensitive about how she still doesn't have "A man" at her age, hence the "need a man" part, typical anime joke. Either that or she doesn't like it when people mention men around her because it seem to undermine her authority due to her gender.

[Abdula]

Man I so want those Cloud-nins to get their asses kicked. Imagine that me sticking up for Naruto. I'm really starting to like the Cloud-nins though. Can't wait to see their reaction when they actually realize who Naruto is. Would be very fitting if he ends up saving their asses in epic fashion.

I can't quite say I'm a fan of Naruto taking a beating though. Sure it works here and I see how it fits in with the whole breaking the cycle of hatred thing but that really seemed pointless and much like the whole breaking the cycle thing this too just feels like its been done before.

Loving all the new characters, feels like the chuunin exams all over again. The cloud ninjas are freaking bad ass and the new girl, Shii, looks like she may be Yugito's older sister.



Oh, and everyone from the rock village is hideous.
Seriously they just scream cannon fodder.

[rockmanj]

YDo they squabble? Do they respect each other?


I think behind closed doors, everyone laughs at the Raikage. He's worse than Gai. I'm sure those two would get along famously.

[Sidnne]

How do you people figure that this chapter furthered the theory that Danzou is Madara? It seemed to me like it pretty much squashed it.

Danzou wants Oro's data to restore his right eye and arm... There is nothing wrong with Madara's right arm and his right eye is Sharingan. So wtf would Madara need help with that for? And what is that in the last frame? Looks like some kind of grotesque monster arm coming up out of Danzou's robe to touch his face; pretty sure Madara's arm doesn't look like that.

The link between Madara and Oro is Akatsuki. The link between Danzou and Oro is pretty easily explained: Danzou wanted his eye and arm healed so he secretly sanctioned Oro's experiments.

And even a split body doesn't make sense because there's nothing wrong with Madara's left side other than his eye as far as we can tell.

I think the people who want to believe the Madara=Danzou theory are banking entirely on shadiness and the eye being covered. Other than that, theres really nothing in their actions that would link the two. Danzou is loyal to Konoha, just in an unethical fashion.


Loving all the new characters, feels like the chuunin exams all over again.

Yeah, I was thinking that too. It's fun to see new chars introduced, and since each Kage has a pair accompanying him/her, that means 15 of the strongest ninjas all gathered in one spot. And I can't imagine Kishi would introduce them and not have them show what they can do, so I'm hoping for a pretty epic battle.

[rockmanj]

And I hope he doesn't have poor Anko assassinated. That would suck.

[poopdeville]

If Madara isn't the mizukage anymore then I don't know what the relevance was in him ever having been the mizukage in the first place. Also, that other mist guard looks like he's wearing Haku's outfit.

Oh, and everyone from the rock village is hideous.

Maybe the Mizukage is pretending to be Madara.

[XanBcoo]

How do you people figure that this chapter furthered the theory that Danzou is Madara? It seemed to me like it pretty much squashed it.
No one said that this chapter furthered the Danzo/Madara theory. We said exactly the opposite.


I think behind closed doors, everyone laughs at the Raikage. He's worse than Gai. I'm sure those two would get along famously.
Haha, nice observation. Now I hope those two really do interact at some point. Raikage is the manliest character we've seen in a while.

Edit: Thanks poop and Twist for the link.

[Uchiha Barles]

Alright...I think I'm ready to accept the reality of the manga's ambitions (or lack thereof) and continue reading.

Hehe...one of Tsuchikage's escorts is a fat Choji.



I can't quite say I'm a fan of Naruto taking a beating though. Sure it works here and I see how it fits in with the whole breaking the cycle of hatred thing but that really seemed pointless and much like the whole breaking the cycle thing this too just feels like its been done before.


Naruto hasn't really figured out what he's supposed to do about this breaking the hatred cycle thing. This beating is just one of those things that's part of his development. Sure it's pointless, but it's the kind of thing that shows where his mind and heart are regarding the issue. The kind of thing you'd expect a teenager without answers to do. The type of thing those cloud ninja would see in a flashback when they have an alliance with the leaf, and they witness Naruto do something both right and impressive, as Hokage, to break the hatred cycle wherever it arises at the time. In that light...I kind of liked it.

And seriously, somebody get Misukage a man. Enough frustration, and I can see her going totally bonkers. No one would be safe.

[shinta|hikari]

The problem with Naruto taking a beating is... it has been done to death. It is boring, and makes Naruto look like he took several steps back. It even implies that he lacks confidence in what he preaches, not to mention that he looks very, very uncool right now.

A better way to handle it would be for Naruto to tell those two that he will handle Sasuke personally. Of course, the ninjas would react violently and attack Naruto. Naruto then absolutely dominates them (without hurting them of course) using sage mode. This shows that the Naruto that used to simply declare things but lacked the power to do it, has finally achieved such power. Also, it makes him look absolutely cool.

That is just one way of redoing that scene, among many others that can be easily thought of by anyone.

[Tyreal]

How do you people figure that this chapter furthered the theory that Danzou is Madara? It seemed to me like it pretty much squashed it.

Danzou wants Oro's data to restore his right eye and arm... There is nothing wrong with Madara's right arm and his right eye is Sharingan. So wtf would Madara need help with that for?

Well Oro was obsessed with obtaining a Sharingan it's possible he had/has info on how to restore one thats been damaged since its been assumed for some time that Madara's Sharingan has been damaged. Also I don't think we've seen Madara's arm, I thought they were all gloved. Not to mention if Danzo is Madara he could be using some form of Astral projection to be Madara/Tobi where his arm isn't all messed up.

[UChessmaster]

No one said that this chapter furthered the Danzo/Madara theory. We said exactly the opposite.


Well, that most certainly downplayed Madara as the Mizukage and making Danzou look more like Madara.

First post after chapter got posted.

The Madara/Danzou theory is really a weak one, the biggest flaw is that i`ve pointed out only a gazillion times already that Madara sent pain to find Naruto and extract the 9 tails while Danzou killed that frog so that pain doesn`t finds Naruto thus making it imposible for him to extract the 9 tails. There`s also the fact that in the end, Danzou wants what`s right for the village while Madara only wants revenge.

But whatever, some people in this forums seem to get a hard on for this dumb theory though, so i expect next weeks relevation of how Kisame enjoying long walk on the beach proves without reasonable doubt that Madara = Danzou.

[Psyke]

Yeah Naruto getting bashed up for no apparent reason after being so cool last week is a let down. :(

I didn't like some of the new character designs, but the new Mizukage looks good, as agreed by many of her new fans here :)

[Death BOO Z]

this is the first time I've heard that Danzo doesn't have one of his arms... weird.

next in line, Naruto is top contender for the Jesus position, I think that his answer is somewhat correct. he's taking the hatred from the mist village and when time comes, he'll take all the hatred he gathered and turn it into positive hatred, which will allow him to cancel out the negative hatred that made Sasuke so strong.


also, so many awesome ninjas, why do we still need Sakura around?

[RasenDori]

its official... i hate kurui. shes so horribly immature. seeing the kages was cool, and i think that someone mentioned before the madara as mizukage was a mistranslation. even in the official english adaptation he is refered to as the former mizukage. but madara = danzou theory are still vastly unfounded.

it bothers me that none of these new characters have a remotely evil look to them. it seems like taka and akatsui are gonna be way out numbered when they try to crash the party. im hoping that one of the kages are on akatsukis side.

[RyougaZell]

Its clear the current Mizukage isn't the same one that was during Zabuza's time. I remember that Zabuza defected from Mist when he tried to assasinate the current Mizukage (Madara)... and that was at least 15 years ago since Haku was still a small child. Madara had enough to leave.

Even with all the new character introduced... this chapter felt shorter and slower than usual.

[Stitch]

Kishimoto just wasted more than half the chapter on some retarded "humor." That is the type of shit that would make me stop reading a manga if I were paying for it. But that's why I don't pay for shit when I don't have to, so I can't wait for the next chapter!

[Carnage]

So any reason Kishimoto is turning Naruto into Jesus?

[RasenDori]

i think you'd continue to buy it considering that you would be getting over a dozen different mangas for under 5 bucks. slow pace aside; this chapter was simple fan service. kishimoto showed us all the kages in one chapter. besides it better to do this kind of chapter while the story is slow then to waste a chapter introducing those characters after the pace picked up.

about the only real plot movement we got was about danzou and kabuto. with kabuto mentioned it looks like all the loose ends of this story are meeting at a single place. this indeed seems to be a final story arc. ... now if we could just resolve that standing hinata issue that seems to have been ignored for a while...

[iMUSTbeTHEdevil]

After reading this weeks chapter I just really felt like I was reading Manga Filler for some reason. Just didnt have the same vibe. So meh, will wait and have to see if next weeks is better.

[Assertn]

After reading this weeks chapter I just really felt like I was reading Manga Filler for some reason. Just didnt have the same vibe. So meh, will wait and have to see if next weeks is better.
Probably because of all the ridiculous filler-esque characters that were introduced.
The only one I'm curious about is the new mist 7 swordsman. I always had a particular interest in that group.


poop and twist for the link.
This made me lol

[XanBcoo]

First post after chapter got posted.
Oops, I did read that but parsed it like he was refuting both theories:

Well, that most certainly downplayed [Madara as the Mizukage and making Danzou look more like Madara.]

I see what he meant now. Anyway, hopefully this chapter will have put it to rest.


it bothers me that none of these new characters have a remotely evil look to them. it seems like taka and akatsui are gonna be way out numbered when they try to crash the party. im hoping that one of the kages are on akatsukis side.
Why do you want one of the other Kages to be evil? Just because they run another ninja country doesn't mean they have to be cartoonishly villainous.

Or maybe I just really want to see Sasuke get his ass handed to him again.

[samsonlonghair]

Isn't that new swordsman way too young to be one of the mist seven? He's called a kid several times, so he can't be in the same generation as Kisame or Zabuza. Does this mean that when old swordsmen die or defect that new swordsmen are added to the mist seven?

[darkshadow]

I just think there are seven sword types, and the 7 who can wield them like a master become part of the 7 swordmen, otherwise they would've died out after one generation.

[Assertn]

Isn't that new swordsman way too young to be one of the mist seven? He's called a kid several times, so he can't be in the same generation as Kisame or Zabuza. Does this mean that when old swordsmen die or defect that new swordsmen are added to the mist seven?
Suigetsu was next in line to be a 7 swordsman within his lineage, so I imagine its the same way.

[Archangel]

Jesus Christ the Mizukage is fucking hawt!!!

The Raikage is just pure win, he's awesome

[NeoCybercoin]

Jesus Christ the Mizukage is fucking hawt!!!

The Raikage is just pure win, he's awesome

That pretty much sums it up.

[samsonlonghair]

So what info might Anko learn that is so damning to Danzou that he's considering having her taken out? We know that Danzou is a shady character, but we don't have a lot of specifics on his dirty deeds. We're going to see a big revelation about Danzou's past by the time this is done.

I had my doubts before, but now that Kabuto has been mentioned I can see all the loose threads tying up. This might just be the last arc. I wouldn't believe that last week.

[The Chancellor]

This might just be the last arc. I wouldn't believe that last week. Like I said before, unless Kishi is planning on making Danzo hokage for like a month only, then it can't be. Keep in mind, from the very start his main goal has always been to make Naruto hokage. That hasn't changed.

[Assertn]

His goal was to have naruto acknowledged by the village. This happened in the previous arc.

[The Chancellor]

His goal was to have naruto acknowledged by the village. This happened in the previous arc. And since when was this a new arc? Because by your definition, even if when pein died, what marks the new arc? I mean what is this arc then? The kage arc? The sasuke retrieval arc?

[Sidnne]

And since when was this a new arc? Because by your definition, even if when pein died, what marks the new arc? I mean what is this arc then? The kage arc? The sasuke retrieval arc?

I believe we are on the :rolleyes: arc.

Seriously? Are you really going to debate where one arc ends and another begins and what it would be called? Really?

The previous arc ended when Naruto came back to the village after beating Pein and got his props. The current arc began with the words "Danzou, you are the 6th Hokage."

[samsonlonghair]

There's an election coming up and there is potentially damning information concerning Danzou and Orochimaru. Sounds like the perfect mix for a very short reign as Hokage. I hope we get an update on Tsunade's condition soon.

[Abdula]

Isn't that new swordsman way too young to be one of the mist seven? He's called a kid several times, so he can't be in the same generation as Kisame or Zabuza. Does this mean that when old swordsmen die or defect that new swordsmen are added to the mist seven?
I'm surprised this came up because Suigetsu has mentioned this a couple of times before. Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/347/016/) for example, so yeah apparently there are seven swords that are passed down from generation to generation and Suigetsu was next in line to receive Zabuza's sword which is why he acquired it as soon as Sasuke freed him. It was also mentioned in other chapters that I can't be bothered to look for right now, that Suigetsu's goal is to collect all seven swords and he has an older brother who either currently is one of the seven or was one at one point. Something like that.

[TwisT]

Yeah i think something was mentioned when Sasuke battled Itachi and Suigetsu and Kisame waited outside. Remember Suigetsu wanted to battle Kisame. And then after Madara had convinced Sasuke of Itachis past and his love for his little brother, and Kisame and Madara stood in the way, Suigetsu pointed a sword at Kisame and said something like Kisame was his target.

I'm also surprised no one remembers. Mostly because it was mentioned in last weeks episode of Naruto Shippuuden. Infact it's the exact same thing that Abdula linked to that was brought up. Am i one of the few that started to watch Shippuuden again after the fillers where over(yeah yeah, i know it was a bit of filler in the episode to stretch the chapter out)?

And as for what Anko could find out about Danzo and Oro, Danzo ordered Sai to deliver that report on the ANBU operatives identitys (or whatever it was) which he did right after Naruto in Kubi-mode had weaken Oro enough for Sai to approach him. I think that would be the damaging information he was talking about. Kabuto probably knows all about it. He was Oro's right hand man. And even if Oro kept it a secret from his pet, can Danzo really take that chance? Also i would bet it would be alot harder to get the information on how the restore his arm and eye if Anko captured him, instead of Danzo's ANBU pets doing it and keeping it a secret so they can get whatever they want from him. Might even offer his freedom or something else in trade. Something i bet he could never do if he was officially captured. How would he explain that he let a key figure in Oro's organization free just for his own personal gain.

Personally i hope this isn't the beginning of the end. Maybe it ties up all the plots right now, but i hope that only mark the halfway, and after this we get to see Naruto's quest to stop the chain of hatred and his road to Hokage (still can't believe he can become Hokage at his age, but rather be in the same age that the 4th became one (i know Gaara became one, but they seemed to suffer from weakling Kage's to begin with, something Konoha have not)). Or maybe some new threat rise up in the horizon that will keep it going. And Nruto has not learned to control Kubi yet either. All the other seem to have almost full control over their tailed beasts, and Killerbee even constantly conversed with his beast, like they where true partners. I would like for Naruto to get to that stage before it ends. Or maybe that will be the next big threat. Akatsuki gets destroyed and Madara loose all control over the tailed beasts and they become the new threat, or Madara escapes and somehow managed to unseal Kubi to try and control it with his Sharingan to extract his revenge. And then we have Danzo and Kabuto left in the equation that could be the next big thing to delve deeper into. I think there are alot of things that we haven't even gotten in to yet and there are plenty of things to keep the manga going even after Akasuki is done for, and possibly even after they retrieve Sasuke.

Even though it can be some painful and boring parts where the author gets accused of not having an imagination, i still find the manga highly enjoyable and i still think there are not to many other that could run for this long and still have the potential to get great. I don't think we all sit here right now at 450+ chapter and continue to read it because it sucks. It might not be at the same level as it was when it started out, but it's still good/great with the potential for awesomeness.

[Sidnne]

Regarding Anko: Danzou is Hokage now, can't he just... oh, I don't know... order Anko back to the village? Make up some excuse why he needs her in the village, or just tell her he has his own people looking for Kabuto and doesn't want her to get in the way?

Thats seems a lot more logical and simpler than killing her.

[Sam98034]

Anyone think Chojiro looks like Obito? Atleast the spiky hair, earmuffs, and eye gear. He probably is an Uchiha, too, but can't activate his Sharingan.

Edit: A really smart person neg rep'd me because he or she took this comment in a serious tone. He or she is free to PM me any time so we can discuss all the nuances and idiosyncrasies of facetiousness and sarcasm.

[DeathscytheVII]

With the Mizukage reveal, I had a split second thought where I thought Tobi was actually a hot woman, him being referred to as Mizukage and all :p. That really did a mindjob on me.

Damn Mizukage's hot! :D

[XanBcoo]

Anyone think Chojiro looks like Obito? Atleast the spiky hair, earmuffs, and eye gear. He probably is an Uchiha, too, but can't activate his Sharingan.
The tall guy also has his right eye covered. How suspicious.

So I guess all 3 of those Mist nins are Madara.

Awesome.

[samsonlonghair]

I'm surprised this came up because Suigetsu has mentioned this a couple of times before.
Yeah, that's probably why I didn't remember it. I find Suigetsu about as interesting as wallpaper.

can't he just... oh, I don't know... order Anko back to the village?
Stop making so much sense. Danzou couldn't be an asshole if he just ordered her back.

[Abdula]

Regarding Anko: Danzou is Hokage now, can't he just... oh, I don't know... order Anko back to the village? Make up some excuse why he needs her in the village, or just tell her he has his own people looking for Kabuto and doesn't want her to get in the way?

Thats seems a lot more logical and simpler than killing her.
Although Danzo has been named Hokage it appears that he wouldn't officially be recognized as Hokage until after the Jounins vote and since most of the village is already suspicious of him, ordering Anko back to the village won't help his cause. Ordering her back to the village when they are on the verge of possibly capturing Kabuto will raise a lot of eyebrows especially if he comes up with some bs excuse. If she dies though, then she was just another ninja who died on a very dangerous mission.

[Pandadice]

that chojiro fellow looked sweet. it'll be awesome seeing him fight.


next in line, Naruto is top contender for the Jesus position, I think that his answer is somewhat correct. he's taking the hatred from the mist village and when time comes, he'll take all the hatred he gathered and turn it into positive hatred, which will allow him to cancel out the negative hatred that made Sasuke so strong.

ug the whole beating situation was annyoing..

it's like Naruto's trying to do this whole humbleness, take-all-the-hate-on-him approach, but in the end it's just seems so selfish.

if he really wanted to be humble, then he'd let them kill his friend. in stead of being extremely selfish and declaring that the hatred has to end at the cloud nins. seriously, he should take the responsibility of ending the hate on himself. let them kill sasuke, and then he should be the one who doesn't retaliate. while then also making sure that his friends don't retaliate. I'd say (well, if killabee was actually dead) that the cloud nins have every right to kill sasuke (if they could), and that naruto, being fair, shouldn't do a thing about it.

[Sam98034]

if he really wanted to be humble, then he'd let them kill his friend. .

There has to be something wrong with this...if he really wanted to be humble, I guess he could wash their feet. I don't think he was going for humble, though. He realized he couldn't sell Sasuke out when it came down to it, but he understood their pain and frustration and was like "You can use me as a punching bag if that makes you feel any better." See, now he shared in their Pain and now they understand eachother *happy family* the end.

[Assertn]

Actually, Pandadice brings up a valid point....

Although, I think Kishimoto's flashback to Jiraiya is meant to illustrate that Naruto already made a sacrifice to end the hatred, by choosing not to kill Nagato.

[samsonlonghair]

I think the Naruto beating is just a lame setup for a joke. The cloud nins will find out that naruto is one of the most powerful ninjas in Konoha and they'll flip out.

[shinta|hikari]

I think the Naruto beating is just a lame setup for a joke. The cloud nins will find out that naruto is the most powerful ninja in Konoha and they'll flip out.

Fixed that for you.

[Archangel]

Fixed that for you.

Hmmm... maybe but i'd say kakashi comes in a close second

Then again, maybe we should hold off on that judgment till we see Guy opening the 8 gates vs Kisame

[Spaceaprion]

Hmmm... maybe but i'd say kakashi comes in a close second

Then again, maybe we should hold off on that judgment till we see Guy opening the 8 gates vs Kisame


Kakashi did die fighting one pain.....and Naruto didn't fighting them all. Now Guy opening 8 gates would be awesome, but then he would die. Not so awesome.

[Archangel]

It was 2 on one, he had no idea about pain's powers and he didn't have the backup of the frogs

[shinta|hikari]

Opening all 8 gates hardly makes Guy the most powerful ninja. Maybe at that single moment, but since it is a suicide move, it's not a good parameter to judge overall ability.

[Archangel]

It's still a power of his own, so it does count

In my opinion anyway

[RasenDori]

oh god... could you imagine a konoha with guy as hokage? ... i'll take danzou over that any day.

[Archangel]

Mandatory green jumpsuits for the whole village!

[12345p]

?!? I still can't believe the hype between Danzou and Madara

Has everybody forgotten? Tobi is Madara's spirit reborn in Obito's body quite possibly because of the Rinne Tensei..

[XanBcoo]

oh god... could you imagine a konoha with guy as hokage? ... i'll take danzou over that any day.
Rockmanj brought this up. Just have a look at the Cloud Village for your answer.

[rockmanj]

oh god... could you imagine a konoha with guy as hokage? ... i'll take danzou over that any day.

A lot of crying and face punching?

[samsonlonghair]

Then again, maybe we should hold off on that judgment

I think we should hold off on that judgement. That's why I said Naruto was one of the most powerful in Konoha. There are a lot of Ninjas we haven't seen lately. We don't know what kind of power Hyuuga Hiashi or Neji currently have. We haven't seen Rock Lee fight in a long time. Who knows what power Shino has now?

Not to mention the unaccountable. There could be a hundred more ninjas in Konoha that we've never seen because Kishimoto is saving them for some reason.

Naruto probably is the most powerful, but we don't know that for certain until we see him fight every jerk in town.

Come to think of it, how do you define power anyway? No one can deny Naruto has lots of raw power, but does he have the mental power to beat a tactical genius like Shikamaru? Does he have the experience to beat Kakashi? Does he have the skill to beat Yamato? Does he have the cruelty to beat Ibiki?

Edit:
By the way, this is my six hundred sixty-sixth post. Woot!

[darkshadow]

Err... how did this thread get over 1 million views.

[Marik]

What the hell, it was at 381,000+ this morning.

[enkoujin]

Auto-refresher?

And to clarify my previous comment in this thread, I said that it is becoming more evident that Danzou is Madara now that shown that Madara is no longer the Mizukage.

[poopdeville]

Come to think of it, how do you define power anyway? No one can deny Naruto has lots of raw power, but does he have the mental power to beat a tactical genius like Shikamaru? Does he have the experience to beat Kakashi? Does he have the skill to beat Yamato? Does he have the cruelty to beat Ibiki?


With enough Kage Bunshin, sure.

[12345p]

Err... how did this thread get over 1 million views.
Search Engine spiders. Apparently the web must like the Idea that Madara is Danzou.

Perhaps someone @ Google is a Naruto fan, and ran a hypothetical engine against the thread to get percentages of probability based on the arguments projected here. ;)

[Archangel]

Wtf? O_o

1mil+ views?? Someone's been busy...

[Sam98034]

oh god... could you imagine a konoha with guy as hokage? ... i'll take danzou over that any day.

His carved face on the monument would be in the "nice guy" pose with the thumbs up and everything. On the up side, he would be wearing a hat to cover that ridiculous hair cut he has.

[Assertn]

His carved face on the monument would be in the "nice guy" pose with the thumbs up and everything. On the up side, he would be wearing a hat to cover that ridiculous hair cut he has.
Hat's optional. Tsunade has worn her hat all of one time throughout the whole series.

[The Chancellor]

His carved face on the monument would be in the "nice guy" pose with the thumbs up and everything. On the up side, he would be wearing a hat to cover that ridiculous hair cut he has. Because you think the fourth went to a $200 salon?

Edit: Am I the only one who is a little a disappointed in the days of Kage being the strongest in the village to unofficially electing a one eyed, one armed old man as the next hokage? Especially in a village known for having bred some of the series best ninjas

[UChessmaster]

Auto-refresher?

And to clarify my previous comment in this thread, I said that it is becoming more evident that Danzou is Madara now that shown that Madara is no longer the Mizukage.

Except that is not more evident, unless i`m missing something extremely obvious here.

[Sidnne]

Except that is not more evident, unless i`m missing something extremely obvious here.

I think the logic behind that is that if Madara is not Mizukage then clearly he must be Danzou... because what other alternative could there possibly be? :rolleyes:

[Sam98034]

Because you think the fourth went to a $200 salon?

Edit: Am I the only one who is a little a disappointed in the days of Kage being the strongest in the village to unofficially electing a one eyed, one armed old man as the next hokage? Especially in a village known for having bred some of the series best ninjas

No, it's just that he looks like the guy from "Dumb and Dumber" with that haircut. And about the whole "strongest" ninja thing...why are we all assuming Danzo is so weak and is mearly a politician. He should be about the same age as the 3rd, and he was no pushover. I know that Danzo's old and crippled, but the Kage is supposed to protect the village when it's in danger. I doubt he would have been a contender for Kage if he wasn't capable of fighting well if such a time would arise. We have seen him do nothing at all so far, so how can we judge him.

[UChessmaster]

I think the logic behind that is that if Madara is not Mizukage then clearly he must be Danzou... because what other alternative could there possibly
be? :rolleyes:

Must Danzou absolutelly be 2 persons? Why can`t Danzou just be Danzou :confused:

[samsonlonghair]

Search Engine spiders. Apparently the web must like the Idea that Madara is Danzou.
Nah. If it was google, we'd see a bunch of new users first post. Someone probably just left his bowling ball on the F5 key.

With enough Kage Bunshin, sure.
After all this time KB is still the answer to all Naruto's problems.

His carved face on the monument would be in the "nice guy" pose
This should be suggested in the fan art forums.

I think the logic behind that is that if Madara is not Mizukage then clearly he must be Danzou... because what other alternative could there possibly be?
Tobi can't just be Madara. Tobi also has to be Danzou, Mizukage, Obito, Jack the Ripper, Kira, the Lindberg baby, Lee Harvey Oswald, and Tupac Shakur

[redcat]

I get the feeling jiraya was revived when pain revived kakashi and everyone else, and will return to replace danzo as hokage until tsusade recovers. I can't really trust any of the dead to stay dead anymore.

[Paper]

Am I the only one who is a little a disappointed in the days of Kage being the strongest in the village to unofficially electing a one eyed, one armed old man as the next hokage? Especially in a village known for having bred some of the series best ninjas

"In the kingom of the blind the one-eyed man is king"

That basicly sum's up whats been going on in konoha. Thru Chaotic and disorderly times usually the evil person "Danzo" will take his step upon the pedastal and he must be able to somewhat hold down the fort if the advisor's agreed upon this, therefore he must no how to throw down or maybe he is just very good with war strategies :rolleyes:.


I get the feeling jiraya was revived when pain revived kakashi and everyone else, and will return to replace danzo as hokage until tsusade recovers. I can't really trust any of the dead to stay dead anymore.

@ redcat http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/449/09/

I believe Pein only have limited time from the point of death to revive someone, that leaves Jiraya out of the question.... also did Jiraya even have a funeral ??

[The Chancellor]

"In the kingom of the blind the one-eyed man is king"

That basicly sum's up whats been going on in konoha. Thru Chaotic and disorderly times usually the evil person "Danzo" will take his step upon the pedastal and he must be able to somewhat hold down the fort if the advisor's agreed upon this, therefore he must no how to throw down or maybe he is just very good with war strategies :rolleyes:.

It seems as if he's got plans bigger than just pulling strings. And now his strings have gotten thicker and stronger, and he has more of them now that he has total unofficial control and say over all jounin activities.. Till the jounins come in and do their voting that is. I personally like how he can't make his 'plans' happen just yet. He still has one final test to pass before he's official. It was smart of Kishi to pull this off because hopefully we'll be getting some faithful village jounin love getting mad at the fact that he was elected in the first place. I can think of a ton of jounin who won't be happy with this decision. Kakashi, Gai, Kurenai, mostly people who loved the teachings of the third. To name a few. Plus, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is the first time since he became a new jounin, that Neji will be voting for a hokage.

[Pandadice]

i think Neji might be the type who would vote for him. I dunno, he just comes across that way to me.

[Archangel]

i think Neji might be the type who would vote for him. I dunno, he just comes across that way to me.

Pre-naruto neji maybe, but not now

[The Chancellor]

i think Neji might be the type who would vote for him. I dunno, he just comes across that way to me. Nah, I think he's too smart for that. He'd do his research now and find out whats really going on. And he's got Gais and kakashis backs on whatever they think should hold sway and right for the village as a whole.

[RasenDori]

And to clarify my previous comment in this thread, I said that it is becoming more evident that Danzou is Madara now that shown that Madara is no longer the Mizukage.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/454/17/

THERE! Madara HAS a right arm and eye which possesses the mangekyou sharingan. Danzou DOESN'T. Can we put an end to this silly theory now?

[Archangel]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/454/17/

THERE! Madara HAS a right arm and eye which possesses the mangekyou sharingan. Danzou DOESN'T. Can we put an end to this silly theory now?

It's all a genjutsu to trick us!!! It would be easy for a sharingan master to fool us all!!!

The theory continue... !

[The Chancellor]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/454/17/

THERE! Madara HAS a right arm and eye which possesses the mangekyou sharingan. Danzou DOESN'T. Can we put an end to this silly theory now?
Can you prove that danzo doesn't have an arm and eye? So no we can't let it go. Because it all points to him and has been pointing to him. And just because we haven't seen whats under Danzos eye patch doesn't mean that it has no eye. And, just because we haven't seem him not using his eye or arm doesn't mean he doesn't have them. People need to wake up and smell the sharingan. It's coming.

Edit: and besides, are you guys really going to call kishi out on what could be one of his greatest foreshadowing tools ever?

[samsonlonghair]

Neji strike me as the kind of guy who would vote for Neji. I don't assume it's an open election where anyone can run though. It's probably just a vote yes or no on Danzou. In which case, Neji will probably vote opposite how the Hyuuga main house votes.

[poopdeville]

Madara can control the Sharingan, and Danzou's arm is in a sling. He didn't lose it. He just can't use it for some reason.

In fact, the arm was part of the original theory connecting Danzou and Madara: Tobi has a bunch of piercings in his right forearm that he would presumably want to hide.

[The Chancellor]

Madara can control the Sharingan, and Danzou's arm is in a sling. He didn't lose it. He just can't use it for some reason.

In fact, the arm was part of the original theory connecting Danzou and Madara: Tobi has a bunch of piercings in his right forearm that he would presumably want to hide. Thank you! The theory isn't dead. It's a solid theory and those are strong points. Plus, the fucking guy hates the thirds teachings that were taught to him by the first two hokages. Plus, if people can phase in and out of attacking Tobi and not truly touch him, then I think he can easily be able to play two roles by teleporting. And he already played a kage once so he knows what he's doing. If only for a while.

[unandpw]

And just because we haven't seen whats under Danzos eye patch doesn't mean that it has no eye.
It has Kakashi's mouth.

[Sidnne]

Can you prove that danzo doesn't have an arm and eye? So no we can't let it go.

Danzou does have a right arm. Its shown right there in the last frame of the page he linked. He robe slides down off his shoulder, he lowers his head, and that big mutated thing coming up from his robe is his arm and he is touching his face.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/453/18/

In the last frame on that page, you can see Madara's arm. He is wearing a glove and long sleeves, but its pretty clear that his arm is normal looking and not some giant mutated mass.

Let it go.


Because it all points to him and has been pointing to him.

Explain what it is exactly that you believe points to him. I'd love to hear something more rational than "OMG, I bet Madara is Danzou! His eye is bandaged!"

[Assertn]

What ever happened to Madara being Obito? I agree that everyone's being pretty retarded about trying to draw connections here, but it would also be really shitty of kishimoto to not have a reason to hide Madara's face for so long if it wasn't because we've seen his face before.

[Rikudo]

I don't think Danzou is Madara or Madara is Danzou but I really think that Danzou has a sharingan for a right eye. The way he "see" things and schemes behind the scene stinks of a sharingan user. I'm not saying he's an Uchiha but more like how Kakashi have a sharingan.

[Paper]

What ever happened to Madara being Obito? I agree that everyone's being pretty retarded about trying to draw connections here, but it would also be really shitty of kishimoto to not have a reason to hide Madara's face for so long if it wasn't because we've seen his face before.


I agree, why would Kishi put so much foreshadowing over Madara and his mask just to be plain old Madara underneath the exterior? That wouldn't make any sense or logic but at the same time I understand the fact that he was suppose to be killed by the 1st and have reasons to were the mask so he can move smoothly thru his units, now the main question to which we all know the answer to, why would Kishi hide his face from the reader if we already technically seen how he look post Naruto series? He showed his face to Kisame, and he showed his face to sasuke but not to the reader? Maybe he is someone else......

I'm still wondering how did Danzo survived that day when Pein went berserk and wipe out everyone who stood there. Is it a possibility that Danzo teleported that day?



http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/446/13/

[samsonlonghair]

There was a lot of talk about Tobi being Obito (mostly by people who like anagrams), but now we know that Madara is much older than Obito. Madara's face is hidden for a reason, but not because of Obito.

[UChessmaster]

Thank you! The theory isn't dead.

Yes it is! Madara wants Konoha destroyed, Danzou wants whats best for the village while using unorthodox methods and for the 2634982426246th time Madara sent Pain to Konoha to get Naruto and extract the Kyubii while Danzou killed that frog so that Pain cannot get Naruto and so that he cannot extract the kyubii but nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo next week we`ll be arguing the same shit, maybe i should just copy this and save it for next week.


Can you prove that danzo doesn't have an arm and eye?

Here`s your proof, bandages, why does he has an arm hidden and an eye bandaged according to you? shit and giggles? did he lost a bet? so that the oh so smart narutards viewers don`t reallize they are the same person?

[samsonlonghair]

Maybe Danzo is really Anko's Father and he sent his daughter to be Orochimaru's pupil years ago. At some point this came around to bite him in the ass and he got stuck with a mutated arm. That's the real reason why he's hesitating to have Anko offed.

I don't really believe this. I just wanted to say something about Danzou that hasn't already been said three hundred times.

[Sidnne]

Danzou is Naruto's grandfather. His mother's father.

Danzou was made Hokage so that when Naruto becomes Hokage he will be a 3rd generation Hokage.

Another of Danzou's daughters is Sasuke's mother. Therefore Sasuke and Naruto are cousins. They will learn this when Naruto saves Sasuke from the dark side and then the two of them will become co-Hokages like the 1st and 2nd.

[poopdeville]

Yes it is! Madara wants Konoha destroyed, Danzou wants whats best for the village while using unorthodox methods and for the 2634982426246th time Madara sent Pain to Konoha to get Naruto and extract the Kyubii while Danzou killed that frog so that Pain cannot get Naruto and so that he cannot extract the kyubii but nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo next week we`ll be arguing the same shit, maybe i should just copy this and save it for next week.


Madara isn't so simple a character to say he simply wants to destroy Konoha. If he wanted to destroy Konoha, he could have sicced Pein on them. (Or is that what he did?) Madara fought the First Hokage for control of Konoha. Don't you find it a bit suspicious that Roots was founded soon after, and used the same training methods as the Uchiha (murdering your friend)? Or that Madara is known to have become Mizukage, and that the Land of Mist used the same training methods as the Uchiha? I would not find it implausible to learn that Madara has been fighting the Senju for control of the village for the last hundred years, through Roots.

Madara is a known liar, and is known to have been manipulating Nagato. I'm not saying he is Danzou, but just believing him or his motives is absurd.

And after all the crap that Danzou has pulled (including the friend-murdering Roots), believing Danzou or his motives is absurd.

If Madara wanted Konoha destroyed, getting Pein to do it for him would be straightforward, merely by sending him to Konoha and ensuring that Naruto was not there at the time. Sound familiar?

[UChessmaster]

Madara isn't so simple a character to say he simply wants to destroy Konoha. If he wanted to destroy Konoha, he could have sicced Pein on them. (Or is that what he did?)

Thanks for killing your own argument? but no, i beleive he send Pain to capture Naruto, nothing else, whatever happens to Konoha is of no concern to him.


Madara fought the First Hokage for control of Konoha. Don't you find it a bit suspicious that Roots was founded soon after, and used the same training methods as the Uchiha (murdering your friend)? Or that Madara is known to have become Mizukage, and that the Land of Mist used the same training methods as the Uchiha? I would not find it implausible to learn that Madara has been fighting the Senju for control of the village for the last hundred years, through Roots.

uhmmmm Uchihas never had a "method" Madara plucked his brother`s eyes, thats it, only he got EMS. If i recall correctly in Root you`re suposed to kill your brother? the mist ninjas ask you to kill your whole class, i can see a slight relation but they`re not the same method, try again.


Madara is a known liar, and is known to have been manipulating Nagato. I'm not saying he is Danzou, but just believing him or his motives is absurd.

When was it proved that he lied on anything at all?


And after all the crap that Danzou has pulled (including the friend-murdering Roots), believing Danzou or his motives is absurd.

So far he tried to make Sai kill Sasuke, wich is something Tsunade never had the balls to do but should`ve been done a long ass time ago, guess what could`ve happened? Oro could`ve gotten sas-kay`s eyes wich would lead to a ton of problems to Konoha, he also try to hide Naruto, again to the greater good of the village, if Akatsuki gets all tailed beast then all hell break loose. Danzou is the guy who takes the cold and hard decitions thus the name Roots, he does the dirty job because someone has to do it, he`s not bad, just on the wrong manga. If you think he doesn`t wants the greater good for the village in the long run, i think Naruto`s speeches have taken a tool on you.


If Madara wanted Konoha destroyed, getting Pein to do it for him would be straightforward, merely by sending him to Konoha and ensuring that Naruto was not there at the time. Sound familiar?

I`m not following you... Why would Danzou/Madara want to become Hokage of a destroyed village?

[Abdula]

When was it proved that he lied on anything at all?
Well, Minato confirmed that Madara was indeed controlling the Kyuubi when it attacked the village sixteen years ago. Madara denied any involvement and claimed the attack was a random act of nature.

I'm not really one to support or criticize the theories people like to throw out. Occasionally we may get a few that have enough evidence supporting them for me to entertain the idea no matter how unlikely they seem. Others are so incredibly absurd that I wonder if the person who first proposed the idea ever actually took the time to think about what they were posting.

Either way I usually go along with the general consensus unless I feel that there is no one offering an opposing opinion. Undoubtedly the threads are here just for us to discuss such things but this Danzo is Madara thing is just really tiring. Whenever a new chapter is released someone will of course scour the chapter looking for something they can present as evidence supporting the theory and then someone else will of course have to demonstrate how said evidence proves absolutely nothing and it'll go back and forth until a new chapter is released when it would begin all over again.

I suppose it's not nearly as incessant as I am portraying it but it is still just as annoying. If Danzo is Madara we'll find out eventually, if Danzo is not Madara we'll find out. Let's just stopping talking about it, for a little while at least.

That being said, I suppose I should state my own opinion right.;) Personally I don't think the Danzo is Madara theory is as improbable as most make it out to be. I just really dislike the idea because I think it would be lazy, uninspired writing on Kishimoto's part and if the theory proves to be true it would only serve to further tarnish Itachi and I'm not going to be a part of that.

And yes I realize I just finished asking you guys to stop talking about it:p

[Sidnne]

My main problem with the "Danzou is Madara" theory is that the people making the arguments for it are backing it up entirely with more theory and no fact. i.e. Danzou has sharingan and/or is Uchiha, Danzou is a kage bunshin, and Madara and Danzou are the same being but in two seperate bodies, just to name a few.

People are creating "facts" to fit the theory, rather than creating the theory to fit the facts.

[poopdeville]

Thanks for killing your own argument? but no, i beleive he send Pain to capture Naruto, nothing else, whatever happens to Konoha is of no concern to him.

Madara has already admitted to wanting to destroy Konoha. The Fourth Hokage has accused Madara of trying to destroy Konoha. He obviously wanted to. The question was whether he planned for it to happen now or later.

People keep trotting out the argument that Danzou killed the frog, so that Naruto wouldn't show up. And I am saying he could have done that to provoke Pein. Both are consistent with the story, and the latter is consistent with the idea that Madara is Danzou. So it doesn't prove anything about Danzou and Madara.

Very few people here are actually saying that Madara is Danzou. What people are saying is that it's wrong to rule it out. It is very plausible, especially since Madara is supposed to be the ultimate bad guy.




uhmmmm Uchihas never had a "method" Madara plucked his brother`s eyes, thats it, only he got EMS. If i recall correctly in Root you`re suposed to kill your brother? the mist ninjas ask you to kill your whole class, i can see a slight relation but they`re not the same method, try again.


The Uchiha did have a training method. They had to kill their best friend to gain the MS. Only Madara was cold enough to steal his brother's eyes. Killing your best friend sounds an awful lot like what Roots does, doesn't it? (Especially when you realize Sai and that little boy weren't real brothers...) Kakashi (or maybe it was Yamato) went so far as to compare the Roots training to the Village of Mists', where they used to kill their friend. The Mist stopped doing it when Zabuza went overboard and killed everybody.



I`m not following you... Why would Danzou/Madara want to become Hokage of a destroyed village?

Because he would be in control of one of the strongest armies in the world? And he presumably has a lot of influence over the Land of Mist, seeing how he was a previous Mizukage. If he wants to become a world leader, becoming leader of the ninja nations is a fast way to do it. Especially since he manipulates strong guys into doing the fighting for him in order to keep his plan quiet.

[samsonlonghair]

Do we have an indication when Madara was Mizukage? If he was Mizukage during Zabuza's failed coup d'etat that would be interesting. Do you think Zabuza fought Kisame during that coup?

[The Chancellor]

Do you think Zabuza fought Kisame during that coup? Yes. And I think it's one of the reasons Zabuza became a missing nin. Because Kisame as the strongest of the seven swordsman opened a can of whoop ass on him.

[shinta|hikari]

Why did he become a missing nin if his ass was whooped? Wouldn't he be dead?

[Tyreal]

Explain what it is exactly that you believe points to him. I'd love to hear something more rational than "OMG, I bet Madara is Danzou! His eye is bandaged!"

This isn't my post but a post by someone of the name ShatteredHope from another forum. But so far it is the most comprehensive and well written theory about why Danzo = Madara I've seen.



In this post, I will try to link Madara and Danzou together. It is my belief that Danzou is probably Madara in disguise. Otherwise, they are most certainly tied together very closely.

1) Knowledge of 'The Truth'

Madara says that the only people who know the truth about Itachi are the three elders, and that there is no way they would ever speak of the truth, and that that was what Itachi wanted. Madara states that Itachi doubted whether or not Madara knew. This begs the question:

If the elders were never going to tell anyone, and Itachi himself was not going to tell anyone, how exactly does Madara know?

Nobody would know the truth about Itachi if Itachi didn’t want them to. Itachi could easily justify sparing Sasuke to Madara by claiming it was for his own EMS. But how did Madara have in-depth knowledge of Itachi’s motives and his ultimately benevolent plans for both Sasuke and Konoha? Well, to put it another way, the only person who would have a clue as to Itachi’s true intentions would be Danzou, since Danzou exploited the fact that Itachi cared so much for the village and convinced him to kill his clan for it. Madara actually relates the entire story with knowledge of details of what the elders and Danzou were doing as well, for example, the fact that the Uchiha were under surveillance. His in-depth knowledge of the actions and intentions of both Itachi and the elders strongly suggests that Madara is connected with Danzou.

2) The Training

Both ANBU and the Mist village were known to employ similar methods of training; a program that culminated in a duel to the death between fraternal friends. Madara is no stranger to such an experience, as he murdered his best friend decades ago, and it did make him stronger as a ninja. For Danzou, it helped to create obedient subordinates. We know that Madara is/was the Mizukage, and that the Hidden Mist employed similar methods of training. It would seem this is Madara's own special training program.

Notice here Madara says that he was looking for an 'opportunity for war'. This choice of words is not valid if Madara is not a leader of some kind: either Mizukage or Danzou or both.

3) Itachi and Madara

Madara states Itachi was the only one who discovered that he was alive. This makes no sense whatsoever. How does Itachi, a child resident of Konoha, become enlightened with knowledge that even Jiraiya did not know to certainty? Madara wasn't exactly parading himself around Konoha for all to see. If Danzou is connected to Madara, and Danzou is Itachi's source, then it makes sense.

According to Itachi, Madara was his teacher. It is worthy of note that Madara does not mention training Itachi to Sasuke because he wouldn't want to associate himself with Danzou or with training a man knowlingly for the purpose of massacring the clan.

So, what could Itachi be talking when saying that Madara was his teacher?

Itachi was talking about none other than the notorious 'kill your friend' program. Madara/Danzou trained Itachi in two ways:

A- Madara disclosed to Itachi the secrets of the sharingan: the MS and the EMS. Itachi planned his future and that of Sasuke with this knowledge. This explains how Itachi ever came to know of the MS.

B- Madara related to Itachi his own, personal story, and trained Itachi to kill or suppress his emotions, just as Madara had to do during the days of endless battle and slaughter, when Madara even used his own friend and brother. This explains how Itachi came to know of Madara's past. An integral part of it all would have had to have been killing Shisui. Murdering Shisui, who was very close to Itachi, was important for the MS and for fighting his emotions and a taste of what was to come.

It is also important to note that there is no way Itachi left the village to be trained. It's difficult to imagine that a 13 year-old could leave the village for training every now and then, and there is no evidence to suggest so. It is more logical to think that Itachi was trained within Konoha, by Danzou/Madara. Itachi would have been spending much of his time with Danzou anyway after he was drafted into ANBU, and it is noted by the other Uchiha that Itachi's attitude changed soon after he joined the black ops. He also murdered Shisui after he joined ANBU, and this shows the Madara influence, because as explained earlier, Itachi would not have known about the MS otherwise.

4) The Massacre

We learn that in all likelihood, Danzou was the who one suggested the idea of the Uchiha massacre. Here, notice that Danzou is the only one shown in the top-left, and he is the most assertive of the elders anyway. The 3rd tried for a truce but failed. One would expect that if Danzou really did oppose the 3rd and his philosophies, that he would take sides with Uchiha and actually help them with the coup. But instead, Madara/Danzou went against the Uchiha, because he harbored hatred towards the Uchiha as well as the village. But, this isn’t all.

Not only did Madara/Danzou pass down the order for the massacre to Itachi (black ops agent), but Madara got to actively participate in the action himself. So, this is what the story is if Madara and Danzou are not linked in any way: Danzou orders the massacre, Itachi miraculously discovers Madara is still alive and then asks for his help. This is very convenient, perhaps a little too much, as Madara gets to indulge in his revenge without actively setting it up (because he was asked by Itachi), thus remaining ‘clean’ enough to get Sasuke on his side? To me, it’s more like Madara was looking for an opportunity for revenge, and when Itachi showed up, he had the means to do it. So, Danzou/Madara orders the massacre, reveals the truth about Madara to Itachi and that he should seek him for help, for both the massacre and the training (or Danzou simply reveals that he is Madara).

I am also entertaining the thought that it was Madara who manipulated the Uchiha into planning a coup d’état in the first place, thus creating a basis for the massacre. I think he could have done this in two ways:

A- Danzou could have told the Uchiha that they should overthrow the 3rd, and that his black ops division would assist them. Firstly, Danzou is firm in his opposition to the philosophy of the Hokages, as Tsunade says. We know that he actually fought the 3rd for the title as well. Therefore, the Uchiha would have seen him as a potential ally. Secondly, it has already been hinted that the Uchiha thought they had allies in ANBU.

B- Madara could have provoked the rebellion indirectly using the Fox. After unleashing the Fox, everyone grew wary of Uchiha and they were isolated by Danzou, and the 3rd opposed it.. Moreover, it was Danzou's black ops that were in charge of monitoring Uchiha. Danzou subjected Uchiha to increasing pressure and discrimination until Uchiha felt like they had no other choice but to fight for their freedom and their pride as a powerful clan. In effect, Danzou forced a rebellion, and if he really opposed the 3rd and not Uchiha, he shouldn't have discriminated against them. It is clear that had he wanted, Danzou could have avoided discriminating against Uchiha and seemed like he was giving them the benefit of the doubt after the Fox attack. He would have had the 3rd's support as well, and thus would have succeeded.

The bottom line is that Danzou/Madara could have used one or both of the above means to induce a coup d'etat.

5) Danzou's Rebellion

Danzou seems to have foreknowledge of Pains attack. The elders clearly say that Danzou said it was Akatsuki’s leader attacking.

Of course this begs the question, how did Danzou know?

The only people who should know are the remaining Akatsuki who were at the meeting. This strongly suggests a connection between Madara and Danzou.

Furthermore, Danzou seems rather well prepared for a coup, considering that Pain’s attack should have had the element of surprise. In fact, his predictions seem a little too accurate. Not only is Danzou right about Tsunade having no clue about the rebellion, but Danzou predicts that the village will avoid complete destruction because of Tsunade and Katsuya. This is remarkable. Firstly, for anyone to assume that two ninjas can actually take on an entire village is absurd; it would appear Danzou knows somewhat of the abilities of Pain. Secondly, it has played out exactly as Danzou said: Katsuya protected everyone from Shinra Tensei. Danzou's use of the words 'total annihilation' is rather odd, and it almost seems like he is predicting Shinra Tensei.

In any case, how could Danzou's actions be so well-suited for the circumstances, and his predictions so accurate, if he has no connection with Pain or Madara?

The timing of Danzou’s rebellion in relation to Itachi’s death is significant as well. We learn that Itachi warned Madara not to 'touch' Konoha, but as soon as Itachi dies, Madara says that Konoha is no longer off-limits. Madara predicted the outcome of the Itachi-Sasuke battle (as he knew 'the truth'), so he knew Itachi would die. As soon, as Itachi dies, Pain is sent to Konoha to wreak havoc, and Danzou is perfectly prepared to rebel. Again, far too convenient. Now, ROOT could have rebelled after Orochimaru’s invasion, but they didn’t, possibly because Madara did not want to take action during Itachi’s lifetime. It was an excellent opportunity though, as Konoha was left damaged and without a Kage.

So why didn't he?

Itachi threatened Madara, but with what? I think Itachi said that he would reveal that Madara was Danzou or that he was Mizukage if Madara did anything to Konoha or Sasuke. Madara says that Itachi was the only one who knew of him (perhaps Itachi was the only one who knew that Madara is Danzou). I think that Itachi could not have killed Madara by himself, otherwise there was no reason for Itachi to leave him alive in the first place and risk his brother's fate. Therefore, I found this(middle-right frame) thought of Madara's to be puzzling. But now, I think that Madara was not referring to Itachi killing him, but instead referring to Itachi revealing his identity and existence, which would eventually lead to Madara's demise at the hands of Konoha and perhaps even the Mist. Had Itachi known that Madara was aware of his secret, Itachi might have revealed the truth and endangered Madara. I also think that the reason Itachi returned to Konoha after Orochimaru's invasion was to prevent Danzou (Madara) from doing anything drastic or from becoming Hokage after the 3rd died. I believe this is how Itachi protected the village and Sasuke from Danzou.

6) 'X' Marks the Man

Last but not least, the wall behind Madara here is marked with an X, and a similar X can be found on Danzou's chin (credit to sumtheory for posting this find). The X appears just as Madara explains that he felt betrayed, almost as if marking the beginning of Madara's revenge. And now Danzou, a man heading the currently looming rebellion, is marked with it.

-----------------------------------------

In conclusion, I think that it is quite likely that Danzou is Madara. If not, then Danzou is most certainly collaborating with Madara.

Please read the spoiler below for preemptive answers to certain questions.

Q1- How can Madara be in so many places at once, and how can Madara and Danzou be of different heights?

1) Madara can be in distant places in a short space of time, thanks to his teleportation ST-jutsu. However, this is not even an issue in Narutoverse because of the shadow clone technique. As yet, no limitations of the technique are known with respect to duration or distance. Yamato used a cloning technique at quite a distance, and even managed to demonstrate communication between clones.

2) In a world where little boys can transform into mature women, appearance is not an issue. A simple henge is all Madara needs to turn into a decrepit Danzou.

Q2- If Madara is Danzou, why did he send Sai to kill Sasuke given Madara's interest in Sasuke?

1) To test Sasuke’s development. Note that Danzou sent the strongest person in Sasuke’s generation.

Furthermore, notice that when Sasuke breaks Sai’s technique, Sai immediately remarks upon Sasuke’s strength.

However, this is not all. Madara may also have used Deidara for the same purpose. He himself helped Deidara in the fight. After the fight, Madara expresses his acknowledgement to Pain, saying that Sasuke will surpass Itachi, almost as if the fight with Deidara was a means to test Sasuke.

Madara’s reiterates his interest in Sasuke here.

Furthermore, Madara reaffirms his faith in Sasuke's ability before and after the fight with the 8-tails. Again, Madara could have captured the 8-tails himself, but I think he was interested in Sasuke's performance.

2) Another reason Madara may have done it was so that Sasuke wouldn't suspect Danzou is Madara. It is clear that Sasuke desires to kill Danzou and the advisors after hearing Madara's story. If Sasuke were to find out that he was Danzou and that he had the major hand in the massacre, Sasuke would obviously go after Madara instead of collaborating with him.

Q3- Why does Danzou prevent Naruto from returning if he is Madara?

1) It is uncertain whether or not Madara actually wants Pain to get a hold of the 9-tails. Madara here tells Pain failure will not be accepted. Konan says he is invincible, and Madara simply smirks. The only person to know of the Fox’s true power is Madara, and Pain is clearly astounded. Minato says Madara is using Pain. Pain may even be aware of this, and perhaps Nagato this frame which hints at Nagato crying right after Madara leaves is evidence of that.

Madara hasn’t availed opportunities to capture Naruto earlier, and Madara clearly promises Sasuke one of the bijuus. Now, at the time, 7 had been sealed, and Sasuke was supposed to bring the 8-tails to be sealed. By elimination, only the 9-tails is left, and it is no coincidence that the MS can control the Fox either. Thus, I believe Madara is not true to his word with Pain.

Therefore, if Madara wanted the Fox back he could have had it, but he is using Pain (as Minato said) for a different end; setting up the coup. I do not doubt that Madara will want the Fox back at some point, but it hasn't been the priority, and not for a long time, which is why Madara did not fight to protect it from Minato 16 years ago.

2) One less strong ninja means that there would be more damage by Pain, and an easier ensuing coup as well. I do not think Danzou is an idiot: he won't expect Naruto to become his puppet, but instead be well aware, like the rest of the village (chapter 426) that Naruto has inherited the Will of Fire and will, if anything, oppose his rebellion. Therefore, Danzou is not keeping Naruto away from Konoha because he believes that he can use Naruto after Pain is gone, but there is another reason, and Madara has already acknowledged Naruto as a ninja here and he would know of the Fox's power as well. Thus, keeping Naruto away would have been important for the coup to go smoothly.

Q4- If Danzou wants to be Hokage, then why would he want Sasuke to attack the village?

1) By creating a common enemy in Danzou, and by having him become Hokage so that Sasuke cannot easily reach him and kill him, he has created a means to continue manipulating Sasuke.

Kisame states that the ‘higher-ups’ will be shielded by others. Now, Danzou is attempting to become the highest-up by becoming Hokage. Madara states that Akatsuki are not powerful enough to destroy Konoha, and since the objectives of Akatsuki and Hawk coincide, they should work together. He then immediately reveals to Zetsu that he has Sasuke on his side; by having a common target, Madara believes he has Sasuke on his side.

[Sidnne]

Yeah... maybe I'll read that when I'm done with the book I'm currently reading.

But, you just did a disservice to the forum. I wanted these people who have no legitimate reason to believe that Danzou=Madara to explain why they believe the theory (which none have been able to do yet) and not just repeat something that someone else had said.

People should be thinking for themselves, but instead they are just going to spit back what you just copied and pasted every time this comes up now.

[Tyreal]

People should be thinking for themselves, but instead they are just going to spit back what you just copied and pasted every time this comes up now.

From memory I was one of the first people to post the idea that Danzo was Madara on this forum. I've also made many (but not all) of the arguments in that copied post on this forum before long before I found the post (eg. in response to the common questions such as why Madara would set himself up as a target and why Danzo would kill the frog if he was), althought I'll admit I failed to make the connection between the timing of the attack on Konoha and Itachi's death.

My point is almost all the points made in the copied post have been made on this forum before in previous threads in response to some sort of criticism about the theory (in fact many of them have been made serveral times and we've just gone around in circles in realtion to the argument about Danzo being or not being Madara).

[poopdeville]

Yup. Tyreal is one of the few people I remember that have actually argued that Danzou is Madara. Most of the rest are either trying to debunk him with spurious arguments, or (like me) interested observers who like calling BS on spurious arguments. Of course, the counter-counter-arguers are going to use "theory" to discuss the topic.

Like when people complained that it would be impossible for the two of them to be in the same place together... Not in Naruto-land, because of Kage Bunshin.

Or when people complained that Danzou killed the frog, "proving" that Madara is not Danzou. Or does it? (It does not)

Look at the structure of what is happening here. Someone posts a theory that Madara is Danzou (the argument). People say, "For the thousandth time!! Danzou can't be in the same place as Madara/Danzou killed the frog!" (the counter-argument) Somebody posts a "theoretical" post explaining why Madara would want to keep Pein and Naruto apart (counter-counter argument). The counter-counter argument does not have to be "true". It just has to be CONSISTENT WITH THE STORY, and it destroys the validity of the counter-argument. If the counter-counter argument succeeds in invalidating the counter-argument, the first argument is shown to NOT BE INVALID ON THE BASIS OF THE COUNTER-ARGUMENT. The counter-argument has not proven anything (AT ALL), because it is SPURIOUS.

In fact, the counter-counter arguments don't prove anything either. All they show is that people are making big/false assumptions in their counter-arguments. The counter-counter arguments don't validate or invalidate the original theory, either.

Here's an example: Somebody says "The car outside my house is GREEN." Somebody else says, "NO WAY, it can't be GREEN, because it HAS TO BE RED". And a third person says "Cars don't have to be RED. Cars can be ANY COLOR" Well, the second person has to STFU, because they are wrong about cars HAVING to be RED. Therefore, their argument is SPURIOUS. On the other hand, the third argument is consistent with the claim that the car is RED or GREEN or BLUE. It has no bearing on the first argument, except that it does not invalidate it." It does not commit the third person to believing that the first person's car is GREEN. All it means is that the third person caught the second person assuming too much.

Now, if somebody posts a counter-argument that isn't spurious, the theory will have to be abandoned. Until then, people interested in debunking the theory are going to have to keep trying. They should probably stop complaining about it too, since they appear to bring the theory up a lot. And people like me are going to be reading very carefully.

The known counter-arguments to the theory are spurious, as Tyreal has indicated. The theory itself, and the "theoretical" counter-counter arguments are separate issues. Sidnne appears to be conflating these, since he demanded that the counter-counter arguers explain why they think Danzou is Madara. But he merely needs an introduction to basic logic. Not surprising. He's a fucking idiot.

[Abdula]

Words
You post all that crap and then have gall to say this.

But he merely needs an introduction to basic logic. Not surprising. He's a fucking idiot.
I gave you the benefit of the doubt before and I was hoping you were just drunk or high or had just finished bashing your head against the wall a few times or something but you're really starting to make me wonder. The sad thing is you really could have made a good point if you had tried.or maybe you did try. If so, you failed miserably.

[poopdeville]

Huh? I just explained what has been going on. It was essentially the same thing you said, the other day -- with an eye towards answering Sidnne's challenge to "think for myself" and explain "why the people arguing that Danzou is Madara" belive so.

Sidnne doesn't understand notions like "burden of proof", or even where he stands when he denies an argument, or when somebody undermines his counter argument.

If you really have a problem with the basic rhetorical notions I have spelled out, you should read a book. I suggest E.J. Lemmon's Beginning Logic.

[The Chancellor]

Or maybe I just really want to see Sasuke get his ass handed to him again. Unless you consider Killer Bee as the first time he got his ass kicked, what do you mean by again?

And yeah I think the character designs are nice, but the new mizukage is the best one over all. I'm digging the clothes and hairstyle they gave her.

[XanBcoo]

Unless you consider Killer Bee as the first time he got his ass kicked, what do you mean by again?
That's exactly what I was referring to.

[The Chancellor]

That's exactly what I was referring to. Ok good. I was worried there for a minute. I agree then I do as well want to see that happen again. Very badly. I actually want to see it happen by a kage now. And personally it should. Kishi has slept with Sasuke waaaaaaaay too long to to not bust something like out for us to read.