Naruto Chapter 452

[Marik]

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[-=DS=-S.W.A.T3]

lolz can't wait to see the look on the cloud nins faces when they find out naruto is the holder of the 9 tails haha

[Tyreal]

lolz can't wait to see the look on the cloud nins faces when they find out naruto is the holder of the 9 tails haha

Or that he was the one who single handedly defeated the Akatsuki that decimated all of Konoha.

[NeoCybercoin]

I think it's pretty damn awesome that he his clone caught a sword with barehands. Or the fact that he reacted faster then Sai who is with ANBU and grabbed his sword. Naruto has gotten pretty damn awesome now.

[Death BOO Z]

I second that, Naruto was indeed awesome this time.
blocking the sword, catching Sakura and even preventing that guy from taking out this weapon.
the entire fight was good, close combat, but still not too much routine punch-out.

I still don't think the village had any ninja who was capable of finding Sasuke and killing him. not while he was with Orochimaru of course, and probably not now either.


Edit: I had a tripple post here, sorry 'bout that, but at least it wasn't a double post.

[Psyke]

I think it's pretty damn awesome that he his clone caught a sword with barehands. Or the fact that he reacted faster then Sai who is with ANBU and grabbed his sword. Naruto has gotten pretty damn awesome now.

Thats what I thought too. Hopefully Naruto doesn't give another outburst of stupidity anytime soon, and show us more of how he's able to tap onto his jutsus and potential.

[Patriot]

Its like the series is on a whole new level now. when watching that fight the intensity was up, because I knew there was no time to be disrespected by anyone anymore, Naruto is now the Alpha dog and if anyone even lands a hit on him, its a great acomplishment for them as he is probaly the greatest fighter of all time. Even if there are others who don't think so, think of it like this, Itachi and Kisame ran away from Jiraya, I know there were several factors invovled, but work with me here, and then Jiraya was defeated by Pain and we all know Naruto deafeated Pain, even if some consider it a technicality, Naruto has that title and every one will be gunning for him now.

He is now the pride of Konoha and at least when fighting, has to act as such.

And Sai's mouth seal came outta left field...but that was pretty sneaky way to confuse us on to whose side he really is on. And has been on this entire time...

[Death BOO Z]

oh, right. I forgot I had something bad to say.

Sai's sword of truth. really? he magically binded you so you won't speak? what if you're talking with a fellow teammate? and If danzo dies? does it go away? back in HxH, in which Kishimonto was an assistant for a while. Hisoka's "I can't talk about it" was a fancy lie that fleshed out how crafty he is and how people govern actions. and now this?

[Strider]

Going against the grain, I was more impressed with Omoi and partner than Naruto and company.

Granted the Cloud nin are likely Jounin-level, I cannot recall if that has been discussed or confirmed, I found their teamwork more entertaining.

Also, Naruto didn't prevent Omoi from pulling out his weapon. Omoi prevented Naruto from striking his partner. He never intended to cut them. Hence, his order on the following page.

Regardless, Naruto's swift reactions were top-notch. I approve.


lolz can't wait to see the look on the cloud nins faces when they find out naruto is the holder of the 9 tails haha

Considering their master can fully control their Bijuu, while Naruto regresses to a state of his persona being non-existent, I do not think it will be all that shocking if it comes down to the release of the demon.

In fact, I think they'll be surprised in an unpleasant manner that it is Naruto who has it and isn't on Killer Bee's level.

[iMUSTbeTHEdevil]

Going against the grain, I was more impressed with Omoi and partner than Naruto and company.

Granted the Cloud nin are likely Jounin-level, I cannot recall if that has been discussed or confirmed, I found their teamwork more entertaining.

Also, Naruto didn't prevent Omoi from pulling out his weapon. Omoi prevented Naruto from striking his partner. He never intended to cut them. Hence, his order on the following page.

Regardless, Naruto's swift reactions were top-notch. I approve.



Considering their master can fully control their Bijuu, while Naruto regresses to a state of his persona being non-existent, I do not think it will be all that shocking if it comes down to the release of the demon.

In fact, I think they'll be surprised in an unpleasant manner that it is Naruto who has it and isn't on Killer Bee's level.

I can see them being a lot more surprised when they find out that Killer Bee left on his own free will. ;)

It was a pretty good chapter. I liked Kakashi stopping Naruto and Sakura and providing some much needed logic. As for Sai's vow of silence, can he just write it? Or draw it!?!!?

[Patriot]

Well, what is really cool is that RasenShiriken could probally kill the 8 tails beast. So when Naruto kills it they will really be shocked...wait how did we get into this? LOL

Good ep all together, and remember it wasn't Naruto who attacked them, they came out all aggressive like with her sword pointed at Sakura's neck all demanding like, Naruto reacted by pushing the sword away from Sakura's neck, and the fact that his clone caught the sword by the hand surprised even the cloud nin. And we know from Killbee that sword mastership is serious business to the cloud and in this series that whenever the enemy goes wow that is impressive, we all have a collective orgasm.

[Strider]

Naruto attacked them. Not that it should be a topic of discussion or debate. It is that simple.

I doubt the reaction was from the sword gesture, either. The broad said Sasuke. That is all it takes.

[Sam98034]

I'm trying to figure out how Naruto is going to avoid this fight or make these three get over their hate. They're going to try to kill Sasuke, so Naruto is almost forced to stop them. And I know he's pretty buff, already, but do you guys think Naruto'll ever get his dad's speed, too? Next power-up?

[Archangel]

It was refreshing to see naruto do so well in a fight

Here's hoping this will keep up

[shinta|hikari]

Was he in sage mode or not? From the panels after the bout, it didn't seem so, so that fight hardly tells us anything on the power levels of the two cloud nins. If Naruto was in sage mode, those two would probably be eating dirt (just because Naruto wouldn't kill them) in the 2nd and 3rd panels of that fight.

Naruto w/o sage mode is like level 3.

Naruto with sage mode is like level 97.

[rockmanj]

Naruto attacked them. Not that it should be a topic of discussion or debate. It is that simple.

I doubt the reaction was from the sword gesture, either. The broad said Sasuke. That is all it takes.


Come on, she pointed a sword at him. A Sword! I think most people would see that as a threatening gesture. Add to that, they are foreign ninjas asking about a missing-nin. If they had not been attacked, that would be suspect.

[poopdeville]

I agree. If someone points a sword at you, they don't want to fight. They ARE FIGHTING.

[Sidnne]

Naruto was doing well there until Sakura jumped in.

And how much evil shit does Sasuke have to do before Naruto gets it through his head that Sasuke just might not be the same little boy that he grew up with anymore?

[Archangel]

Naruto was doing well there until Sakura jumped in.

And how much evil shit does Sasuke have to do before Naruto gets it through his head that Sasuke just might not be the same little boy that he grew up with anymore?

He hasn't killed anyone who's good yet ( Itachi got owned by biology, not his jutsus ), so you know that Kishi is just setting him up for redemption in the future

[Spaceaprion]

apparently from what Kakashi said, the Jounins have the final vote on weather Danzo becomes Hokage. Page 4 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/452/04/)

Maybe Naruto will become Jounin real quick so he can vote.

Naruto totally would have knocked the chick on her ass if it wasn't for the Dude.

[samsonlonghair]

Sai's back. I was just asking what happened to that guy. With all the Danzo talk I had a feeling that we'd see him again soon.

If someone points a sword at you, they don't want to fight. They ARE FIGHTING.
My thoughts exactly. If someone comes to your home town and points a deadly weapon at you, you'd better react right away.

[rockmanj]

apparently from what Kakashi said, the Jounins have the final vote on weather Danzo becomes Hokage. Page 4 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/452/04/)

Maybe Naruto will become Jounin real quick so he can vote.

Naruto totally would have knocked the chick on her ass if it wasn't for the Dude.

Yea, I wonder if he will be promoted at any time soon. He is like the world's most powerful Genin, apparently a tactical genius, and a hero of Konoha. Add to that he was the pupil of a guy that was considered to be the best bet for Hokage. I wonder if Danzou is elected, will he keep Naruto a genin.

[poopdeville]

He should take the Chuunin exam and pass it like Killua passed the Hunter's exam. It would be pretty damn sweet if he just kicked the crap out of everybody else, during the survival exam, and had no one to fight in the tournament.

I think they'll make him a Jounin fast, once he is allowed to lead a squad.

[Splash!]

Yea, I wonder if he will be promoted at any time soon. He is like the world's most powerful Genin, apparently a tactical genius, and a hero of Konoha. Add to that he was the pupil of a guy that was considered to be the best bet for Hokage. I wonder if Danzou is elected, will he keep Naruto a genin.

Interestingly enough, Sasuke was technically still a genin of Konoha until just a moment ago when Danzo decided to declare him a missing nin.

[rockmanj]

Yea, he could just KBJ and just own everyone all at once! I could see them making him a Special Jounin quickly. That seems like it would make sense.

[Pandadice]

when reading the manga (Im sure we all did) I laughed at how easily Sakura got knocked back, and how Naruto had to go over to her.

But then I was thinking about the beginning of shippuuden, and the fight against the puppet Akatsuki, and how they did all that development with Sakura, and how she was like, actually figthing, and wasn't useless, and I remember thinking like "ahh so she's not useless anymore". But it seems like that just got forgotten these days :\

does anyone think we'll get to see a useful Sakura again?

[NeoCybercoin]

Sakura will be usefull in the final fight against Sasuke. When it comes down to the Summons. Because Tsunade will die but not before giving Sakura the slug summon ( forgot the name ). But for the time being I dont see her being very useful besides being Naruto's sidekick. She used to be the major powerhouse but seeing how Naruto can lift use statues in Sage mode....she currently isn't much.

I think Naruto's dream of becoming Hokage is drifting to the background. Because he wanted to do that so everyone would acknowledge him. The entire city does that now.

[darkshadow]

Sai being back is weird, is Anko now alone tracking Kabuto?

[Archangel]

apparently from what Kakashi said, the Jounins have the final vote on weather Danzo becomes Hokage. Page 4 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/452/04/)

Maybe Naruto will become Jounin real quick so he can vote.

Naruto totally would have knocked the chick on her ass if it wasn't for the Dude.

Lmao... i just remembered that the village's most powerful ninja ( probably ) is still a genin

[poopdeville]

Naruto did say he'd become Hokage even as a genin...

It was during the Chuunin exam's paper test, when he broke the tension in the room.


Sai being back is weird, is Anko now alone tracking Kabuto?

I don't know if that mission is still on. It doesn't seem like it. It has been at least a few hours or even a few days since Pein was defeated though.

[Sidnne]

I just noticed the preview for next week's chapter says "the curtain rises on the meeting of the 5 kages." If thats true then I'm really looking forward to that chapter. That should be pretty interesting to see, especially if Madara is Mizukage.

[UChessmaster]

and tobi, and danzo as everyone is preaching :P, fuck it, he`s probably all the kages at this point.

[XanBcoo]

Man, that fight was great. Really reminds me of one of my favorite fights ever (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/9/20/). No bullshit, just lots of quick thinking.

I've been reading the most recent chapters pretty sporadically, and it's been just about a year since I last contributed to a discussion in here, but can anyone remind me why I'm supposed to be suspicious of Danzo? Is it just the crazy Danzo = Madara theory y'all cooked up or is there something I've forgotten?

So far, aside from some shifty eyes, he's a pretty sympathetic and intelligent man. I still won't be surprised if a new Hokage is chosen once the Jounin vote, but I really got nothing against Danzo during the interim.

I'm really excited about the Kage meeting. It's been too long since we've seen Gaara.

[poopdeville]

Jiraiya said to be suspicious of him.

[Spaceaprion]

I've been reading the most recent chapters pretty sporadically, and it's been just about a year since I last contributed to a discussion in here, but can anyone remind me why I'm supposed to be suspicious of Danzo? Is it just the crazy Danzo = Madara theory y'all cooked up or is there something I've forgotten?

So far, aside from some shifty eyes, he's a pretty sympathetic and intelligent man. I still won't be surprised if a new Hokage is chosen once the Jounin vote, but I really got nothing against Danzo during the interim.


He killed the frog messenger sent to inform Naruto to return? He pretty much created Pain? He dethroned Tsunade? He ordered all the Uchiha's killed? He's a dick? Take your pick. Who knows all of the shit he's done that has never come to light? He's kind of like the Federal Reserve in that respect.

[rockmanj]

He did ally with Hanzou (the created Pain part), wants to be the dictator of Konoha, and makes it so his subordinates can never talk about him. He is way too shady and suspicious.

[Patriot]

Plus his right eye is bandaged and the only eye we see of Madara is his right.

[Abdula]

He killed the frog messenger sent to inform Naruto to return? He pretty much created Pain? He dethroned Tsunade? He ordered all the Uchiha's killed? He's a dick? Take your pick. Who knows all of the shit he's done that has never come to light? He's kind of like the Federal Reserve in that respect.

He did ally with Hanzou (the created Pain part), wants to be the dictator of Konoha, and makes it so his subordinates can never talk about him. He is way too shady and suspicious.

He killed the frog messenger to prevent Pain from even getting the opportunity to capture Naruto. He dethroned Tsunade who was unquestionably, a terrible hokage. He ordered the Uchihas killed because it was the lesser of two evils. Either kill them or risk a civil war, it was the lesser of two evils and it was the right decision which is why Itachi went along with it. He's a dick, you're a dick, see my point?

I don't know much of Hanzou but if he was powerful enough to defeat all three of the sannin at the same time. Then he was certainly powerful enough to destroy Konoha, especially if Danzo was working with him, so there has to be a very good reason he didn't and the only thing that comes to mind is Danzo.

Btw saying Danzo created Pain is, I don't even know what to say to that. You may as well say Hashirama, the first hokage, created Pain. Jiraiya was Nagato's master so Pain wouldn't be what he was if not for Jiraiya, and the Third taught Jiraiya and Hashirama and his brother taught Sarutobi. Obviously Madara played some part in Pain's creation as well and that too leads straight back to Hashirama. See how ridiculous it is.

Shady and suspicious huh, with enemies like Orochimaru, Akatsuki, Madara and god knows what else the village has had to face over the years, the Uchiha uprising for example. Not to mention the ever present threat of other villages invading Konoha. It seems to me that a village as soft as Konoha is, would never exist if there wasn't someone in the shadows willing to dirty their hands to do what is necessary to protect the village.

If everybody in Konoha was as naive and forgiving as Tsunade or Naruto, the village would have been destroyed a long time ago. Bottom line is people like Danzo exist because they are necessary.

[iMUSTbeTHEdevil]

apparently from what Kakashi said, the Jounins have the final vote on weather Danzo becomes Hokage. Page 4 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/452/04/)

Maybe Naruto will become Jounin real quick so he can vote.

Naruto totally would have knocked the chick on her ass if it wasn't for the Dude.

If given more time and more of a fight there is no doubt that Naruto could have taken them. It all comes down to prep time though.

[Death BOO Z]

all that may be true, but it still doesn't explain why when other ninjas were fighting and dying for their country (village) Danzo was hiding in an underground hole.


special note, he, one of the village elders, was hiding and allowed Tsunade (the hokage, he's superior) to die in battle. and did he try to save the kids and the helpless people of the village? no. he made sure his personal guard doesn't fight.

that's the fine line between being a realist (making sure that the village as a concept can survive after the attack) and being a asshole.


Which is really too bad, since I really did like Danzo before, and I thought he could take the series into a new level.

[Abdula]

Which is really too bad, since I really did like Danzo before, and I thought he could take the series into a new level.
I still like Danzo and I think this series would have been a lot better if Danzo was given a bigger role earlier.

all that may be true, but it still doesn't explain why when other ninjas were fighting and dying for their country (village) Danzo was hiding in an underground hole.


special note, he, one of the village elders, was hiding and allowed Tsunade (the hokage, he's superior) to die in battle. and did he try to save the kids and the helpless people of the village? no. he made sure his personal guard doesn't fight.

that's the fine line between being a realist (making sure that the village as a concept can survive after the attack) and being a asshole.

I don't blame Danzo at all for not helping when Pain was attacking the village, it was a losing battle and not helping her did further his goal of becoming hokage.

Tsunade's not dead, no one died, besides the Hokages seem to like to play the role of the sacrificial lamb.

Call him an asshole if you want but in a series filled with idealistic characters, Danzo is refreshing.

[Death BOO Z]

I don't blame Danzo at all for not helping when Pain was attacking the village, it was a losing battle and not helping her did further his goal of becoming hokage.



Further his goal of becoming hokage? wasn't that the entire point of argument?

Danzo cares about himself (and his position of power) first and the village later. I don't mind all the other things (I pretty much agree with your stance about them), but when things got real and the village needed every last one of them to fight Payne, Danzo seemed to welcome the invasion as something that would bring him to power.

actually, here, on the spot, new theory. Danzo knew how strong Naruto would get from sage training, and didn't want Naruto to stop Payne. in fact, Danzo wanted Payne to kill Tsuande and all the other ninjas, and then danzo could manipulate Naruto and use him as a puppet under the guise of "new hokage wanting to avenge the death of the former leader". and because Danzo knew that Naruto could stop Payne (or even because he knew Payne would only go after Naruto) he killed the messenger frog.

in short: Danzo didn't have any problems sacrificing the entire village just to protect the 'greater good' of the village, which is Naruto. on the other hand, he didn't seem so willing to put his life on the line for the village.


I never said he's a bad character, just that he's a bad person, and a bad choice for hokage, as he puts his personal interests before those of the village.

[poopdeville]

Which is really too bad, since I really did like Danzo before, and I thought he could take the series into a new level.

Yes, it would have been bad ass if he fought Pein alongside Naruto, using lots of Hokage level techniques. You would expect the Hokage to be able to keep up with Naruto and Pein. And it would have been cool to see how they interact.

The choice to make Danzou Hokage is entirely political. Whether Danzou is Hokage or not, Naruto is in the village to save the day. Unfortunately, Danzou's hawkish policy is going to lead Konoha to war.

[Abdula]

Man I feel like smacking you upside the head DBZ:D

Further his goal of becoming hokage? wasn't that the entire point of argument?

Danzo cares about himself (and his position of power) first and the village later.
I think you've got Danzo all wrong. Danzo seems the genuinely care about the village however he believes that the village's leaders are weak and the village as a whole would be much safer if he was hokage, and frankly I agree with him. The other two elders seemed to be entirely too self absorbed and Tsunade is too soft, too naive, too idealistic and entirely too emotional to be a good leader.


actually, here, on the spot, new theory. Danzo knew how strong Naruto would get from sage training, and didn't want Naruto to stop Payne. in fact, Danzo wanted Payne to kill Tsuande and all the other ninjas, and then danzo could manipulate Naruto and use him as a puppet under the guise of "new hokage wanting to avenge the death of the former leader". and because Danzo knew that Naruto could stop Payne (or even because he knew Payne would only go after Naruto) he killed the messenger frog.:D Lol


in short: Danzo didn't have any problems sacrificing the entire village just to protect the 'greater good' of the village, which is Naruto. on the other hand, he didn't seem so willing to put his life on the line for the village.
Yeah I'm sure he got all those injuries from not putting his life on the line. In a war there will always be sacrifices and sacrificing yourself is absolutely meaningless if it changes nothing.



I never said he's a bad character, just that he's a bad person, and a bad choice for hokage, as he puts his personal interests before those of the village.
What the hell does being a good person have to do with being a good leader? Come on DBZ Naruto hasn't gotten to you that much has he. Btw Danzo may not be a 'good" person but he is a much better leader than Tsunade.

You talk about Danzo putting his personal interests above those of the village what about Tsunade. What about Tsunade not acknowledging Sasuke as a missing nin when he betrayed the village and left to go join Orochimaru. What about sending Naruto, Sakura, Yamato and Sai to try and capture the akatsuki spying working for Orochimaru. Don't you think such a mission which I'm sure was S class would warrant sending in not only a larger group of people but far stronger and more experienced minjas as well, since they were likely to encounter Orochimaru.

Hell what about sending Naruto on missions where the objective was to intercept Akatsuki. Yeah send your trump card into the hands of the very people who are trying to capture him. The situation with the sand I can understand but sending Naruto and company out to try to capture Itachi in the hopes of him leading them to Sasuke. What the hell was that about :confused:.

Or how about calling Naruto back to the village to fight Pain before she knew his training was complete. Having faith in people is not a bad thing, and if she knew he had already completed his training then it would have been fine. But going against the elders and calling Naruto back to the village without knowing how far his training had progressed simply because she believed in him is utterly foolish. Those are all example of Tsuande putting her personal beliefs and her own interests before those of the village.

Unfortunately, Danzou's hawkish policy is going to lead Konoha to war.
Right and there was no conflict during the reigns of any of the previous hokages right? Madara didn't attack the village during the Shodai's reign? Sarutobi wasn't Hokage during the third great ninja war? The very same war in which Nagato's parents were killed and this madness started. Madara didn't attack the village again when Minato was Hokage? The Uchiha didn't plan a coup during the third's second reign, and the Sound and Sand villages didn't attack konoha during the third's reign either right? The village wasn't just annihilated under Tsunade's watch?

My point, war is inevitable. Wasn't the goal of Pain's entire plan to bring peace. As long as there are ninjas, as long as there are people there will be war. The ninja villages themselves exist for the sake of fighting those wars. Pain's goal was to gather all the bijuu and use their power to create a weapon powerful enough to basically be a deterrent to war itself.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/436/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/436/15/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/436/16/

Again the point is, War is inevitable. There will always be war and under Danzo the village will certainly be aware of that truth and thus more prepared for it and more capable of dealing with it. At the very least more than they were when Tsunade was in charge.

Now that I think about it, Naruto and Danzo are a nice contrast.

[poopdeville]

Again the point is, War is inevitable. There will always be war and under Danzo the village will certainly be aware of that truth and thus more prepared for it and more capable of dealing with it. At the very least more than they were when Tsunade was in charge.

Now that I think about it, Naruto and Danzo are a nice contrast.

I agree regarding the nice contrast.

I think Kishimoto's point is that imperialism is bad... Wars of aggression gain the Feudal Lord territory, and the Hokage power, but at the cost of hatred by others. That breeds yet more war.

On the other hand, after the Sand/Sound's plan failed, the Sand totally capitulated. After the Akatsuki plan failed, the Rain totally capitulated. A war of self defense only leads to hatred if the defender lets it. Ergo, the key to peace in the ninja world is be to maintain a strong, peaceful military, so that no one will gain from an attack.

Tsunade wasn't the best fighter or Hokage, but you underestimate her. She created the Shotai Nidame or whatever to hunt down Akatsuki. That's far more than the Cloud or Sand did. She kept capable Jounin or Jiraiya with Naruto at all times, except when he was on Mt. Toad. As for Sasuke, he is still potentially a military asset, and she thinks Naruto can bring him back. (I personally think he's ANBU, but let's not go there)

[RasenDori]

jeez... page 10 was the worst splash page composition ive every seen kishimoto do ...

[Spaceaprion]

Not all of the Uchiha were in on the revolt. From what we've seen, it was actually only a small part. So for Danzo to execute the whole clan for the workings of a few would be like killing all Somalian's because a few are Pirates.

Also, a quality of being a good leader is having people trust you and your judgment. Who trusts Danzo? Hell, even his brainwashed lackey Sai is having doubts.

[samsonlonghair]

This is all leading to one eventuality. We'll see Sai kill Danzo. One way or another it's going to happen. It practically has to happen. Sai has to discover that Danzo killed Shin or ordered him killed. Otherwise all this buildup is pointless.

[Abdula]

I agree regarding the nice contrast.
:D

I think Kishimoto's point is that imperialism is bad... Wars of aggression gain the Feudal Lord territory, and the Hokage power, but at the cost of hatred by others. That breeds yet more war.
Yeah I got that point, Pain has mentioned it a number of times here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/436/08/) for example. I didn't mention it because I didn't think it was necessary. The other side to that argument is that for the ninja villages themselves to exist war or more precisely conflict is necessary. Ninjas fight it's what they do and for ninjas to prosper there has to be war. That is another thing Pain has mentioned, the only reason the five main villages are able to survive in this peaceful time is because they have very large countries supporting them.


On the other hand, after the Sand/Sound's plan failed, the Sand totally capitulated. After the Akatsuki plan failed, the Rain totally capitulated. A war of self defense only leads to hatred if the defender lets it. Ergo, the key to peace in the ninja world is be to maintain a strong, peaceful military, so that no one will gain from an attack. The outcome of the war is irrelevant. I only mentioned those incidents because you made it seem as if Konoha was going to be involved in a war simply because Danzo was Hokage and my point was that regardless of who the hokage is, there will always be conflict. As to the second part of that quote I would agree but peace in the ninja world is just an ideal it's not realistic. What you're suggesting is exactly the situation we saw in the beginning of the series. Orochimaru mentioned that in such a situation the ninjas themselves would become weak and soft(mentally) and that someone else would inevitably take advantage of that weakness. Or someone like him would come along and create conflict simply because they "like to see things in motion."


Tsunade wasn't the best fighter or Hokage, but you underestimate her. She created the Shotai Nidame or whatever to hunt down Akatsuki. That's far more than the Cloud or Sand did. She kept capable Jounin or Jiraiya with Naruto at all times, except when he was on Mt. Toad. As for Sasuke, he is still potentially a military asset, and she thinks Naruto can bring him back. (I personally think he's ANBU, but let's not go there)

I don't underestimate Tsunade, I give credit where credit is due. I acknowledge what she did and what she tried to do but she herself seemed to acknowledge that she doesn't measure up to the Hokages who came before her and that is the truth.

As for Sasuke, risking the safety of the entire village by allowing Orochimaru to get his hands on that potential military asset is just bad decision making. Protecting that asset even after he tried to kill the village's greatest asset i.e. Naruto twice, is just inexcusable. If Sasuke had attacked the village with or without Orochimaru while Tsunade was still Hokage what would she have done? Ordered the ninjas to try to delay him and his group without hurting him while Naruto tries to use his friendship power on Sasuke after he failed what three times.


Not all of the Uchiha were in on the revolt. From what we've seen, it was actually only a small part. So for Danzo to execute the whole clan for the workings of a few would be like killing all Somalian's because a few are Pirates.
Where did you get this from? The Uchiha were Konoha's police force so the vast majority of them by default were involved in planning the coup. Secondly Madara implied that Sasuke was the only Uchiha who didn't know about the coup and that was because he was too young and we know from his many flashbacks that he was the only Uchiha in his age group.


Also, a quality of being a good leader is having people trust you and your judgment. Who trusts Danzo? Hell, even his brainwashed lackey Sai is having doubts.
Can't argue that but all things considered that seems rather insignificant at this point. I'll say that Danzo isn't really suited to lead Konoha (the people) because his philosophy and way of doing things is drastically different from that of the previous hokages. All his questionable actions aside, that alone would be enough to cause a huge rift in konoha when word of him becoming hokage gets out. But we all know Danzo isn't going to be hokage for very long.

Btw another thing you guys seem to be overlooking and something I know Naruto probably won't understand is that Danzo gave permission to dispose of Sasuke not just for his own interests but to protect the village. If it was Tsunade, if she was using her head she would have done the same thing. Now that Sasuke has joined Akatsuki and attacked an allied village and the other villages have finally decided to make a stand against Akatsuki she would have no choice but to label Sasuke a missing-nin. If not she would just be defending an Akatsuki member and alienating Konoha.

Oh and I hope you didn't take the you're a dick thing seriously. It was all in jest.

This is all leading to one eventuality. We'll see Sai kill Danzo. One way or another it's going to happen. It practically has to happen. Sai has to discover that Danzo killed Shin or ordered him killed. Otherwise all this buildup is pointless.
I'd like to go along with that because Danzo becoming Hokage pretty much guarantees that he is going to be killed and Kishi isn't going to let Sasuke dirty his hands. But I don't think it's going to have anything to do with Sai's brother though and if it was up to me I wouldn't have Sai be the one to kill Danzo. I'm all for poetic justice and I've got one scenario in mind that would be a very fitting end for Danzo. Naturally I'm not going to share.

Oh and since this is our first interaction I guess I should welcome you back to the forums. I joined after you had already stopped posting but I lurked a lot back when you were active here and I do remember you.

[samsonlonghair]

Surely that light-haired Kumogakure Ninja lady is somewhere nearby. The first two wouldn't rush into a fight without her (unless she's as useless as Sakura always is).

Twice during this chapter Kishimoto mentions the upcoming elections in Konoha. I had no idea Konoha was a republic. Since Danzo is a man notorious for shady deeds (shady even by ninja standards), I'll assume that he has some trick up his sleeve for election day. Hanging chad no jutsu!

Thanks for the welcome Abdula. If you remember me, you may remember that I'm nearly always wrong when I make predictions.
"I'm certain Sasuke will be a chuunin at the end of these exams."
"Chouji is dead for sure"
"Lee is just now going in for treatment. He can't recover in time to fight Kimimaro."
"I bet Naruto will be the one to kill Itachi. That'll piss Sasuke off"
"No, I doubt there will be a time jump."
I can't think of a single prediction I ever got right.

[Abdula]

"Chouji is dead for sure"

We all got screwed with that one.:D

[Spaceaprion]

either way you look at it, Kakashi would make a better Hokage than either of them. He's probably the perfect mix of Danzo and Tsunade.

At this rate, Naruto will never become Hokage. He's pretty much the strongest ninja in the village we know of and no one even gives him a first thought when selecting a new Hokage.

[Death BOO Z]

At this rate, Naruto will never become Hokage. He's pretty much the strongest ninja in the village we know of and no one even gives him a first thought when selecting a new Hokage.

It's all technicalities, the Hokage needs to make a toast during new years, and Naruto can't drink yet. so he's out of the game.


seriously, you didn't really expect them to put a 16 years old boy as their leader, did you?

[Tyreal]

Surely that light-haired Kumogakure Ninja lady is somewhere nearby. The first two wouldn't rush into a fight without her.

I'm expecting her to show up and reveal to the two that just attacked Naruto that Naruto was the one that defeated Pain and that getting into a fight with Konoha's hero is probably a bad idea for the political relations between the Cloud and the Leaf.

[darkshadow]

It's all technicalities, the Hokage needs to make a toast during new years, and Naruto can't drink yet. so he's out of the game.


seriously, you didn't really expect them to put a 16 years old boy as their leader, did you?

Well sandaime was like 12 >_>, but anyway doesn't 9th hokage sound kinda fitting for naruto? Having kyuubi and all..
That would mean Kakashi 7th, someone else 8th, Naruto 9th. Far fetched I know.

[Patriot]

To be leader, you have to balance political battles with real battles, the President of the United States is the leader of the U.S and the policies he dictates shape the world, same with Konoha... For all intents and purposes Konoha is a military force, and their policies and the balances they bring affect all 5 nations. Tsunade never wanted to be the Hokage but was sought out because she knew how to balance the political strife and military might of Konoha. The only soft spot she had was for Naruto and in turn Naruto convinced her that he could bring back Sasuke. We are all assuming that with this new information, that Tsunade herself wouldn't have done the same as Danzo.

Give it some time, we will see if the policies started by Danzo are really in line with the good of the villiage or will it lead it to further ruin. Because it can't be good policy to let other countries kill your elite Ninja either...

[Splash!]

If Sasuke is a missing nin now, shouldn't Konoha take it upon themselves to hunt him down and dispose of him? Why is it simply a matter of giving the clound ninjas permission to kill Sasuke? Do they want the secrets of the Sharingan to fall into the hands of a rival village.

If the sharingan is as great as it is, I wonder if anyone made an attempt to salvage the eyes of all those Uchiha that were massacred by Itachi. Somebody should have put in more effort into researching Sharingan transplantation, given Kakashi's success with it. A transplanted sharingan may not be as good as the real deal, but it seems alot better than no Sharingan at all.
And to think all this sort of research would be right up Orochimaru's alley.Looking back, Konoha has really let some of their most valuable assets just walk away. It does bring into question the credibility of past leaderships. I wonder how a guy like Danzou would have handled it all.
Konoha in the past seems to have been handled more like a goodwill brotherhood than a true ninja village. They are supposed to be in the military business. What matters most is getting stronger, not upholding moral values. The countries don't rely on ninja villages to teach them to be more virtuous, I believe they have temples and priests for that.

At the end of the day, they are pretty much Assassins for hire. If they dream of world peace and flowery meadows, boy did they pick the wrong profession. I wonder if ninja villages allow people with other dreams and aspirations to leave the village.

[UChessmaster]

It's all technicalities, the Hokage needs to make a toast during new years, and Naruto can't drink yet. so he's out of the game.


seriously, you didn't really expect them to put a 16 years old boy as their leader, did you?

Gaara :)

[darkshadow]

Konoha in the past seems to have been handled more like a goodwill brotherhood than a true ninja village. They are supposed to be in the military business. What matters most is getting stronger, not upholding moral values. The countries don't rely on ninja villages to teach them to be more virtuous, I believe they have temples and priests for that.

At the end of the day, they are pretty much Assassins for hire. If they dream of world peace and flowery meadows, boy did they pick the wrong profession. I wonder if ninja villages allow people with other dreams and aspirations to leave the village.

Isn't that what Konoha is pretty much all about? You know, the whole will of fire thing.

[Abdula]

We are all assuming that with this new information, that Tsunade herself wouldn't have done the same as Danzo.

Give it some time, we will see if the policies started by Danzo are really in line with the good of the villiage or will it lead it to further ruin.

If it was Tsunade, if she was using her head she would have done the same thing.
I don't know man I'm wondering if you read my posts?


Konoha in the past seems to have been handled more like a goodwill brotherhood than a true ninja village. They are supposed to be in the military business. What matters most is getting stronger, not upholding moral values. The countries don't rely on ninja villages to teach them to be more virtuous, I believe they have temples and priests for that.

At the end of the day, they are pretty much Assassins for hire. If they dream of world peace and flowery meadows, boy did they pick the wrong profession.

Isn't that what Konoha is pretty much all about? You know, the whole will of fire thing.
That's my point exactly. If you want someone to lead a ninja village then I can't think of anyone better than Danzo but I believe it was Zabuza who said that Naruto and co. were just kids playing at being ninjas and that is why Danzo would never work as the Hokage.

Konoha is way too soft and every last one of them buys into the will of fire doctrine. Konoha's beliefs are just too entirely unrealistic for me to actually believe that a ninja village like that could have lasted as long as they have much less be as powerful as they are if not for people like Danzo.

[poopdeville]

It's all technicalities, the Hokage needs to make a toast during new years, and Naruto can't drink yet. so he's out of the game.


seriously, you didn't really expect them to put a 16 years old boy as their leader, did you?

The Third Hokage was like 12. The Fourth Hokage wasn't much older than Naruto.

I find it strange to call people who train constantly and win basically every fight they get in "soft". Maybe that's just me. Konoha is strong enough to defend its will of fire. Indeed, that is what the will of fire is. The will to defend Konoha's way of life.

Orochimaru had different thoughts on the matter, and look where it got him. Yup, assholes like Orochimaru like to "make things happen". And Konoha was stronger than him. That is the point of maintaining a strong peaceful military -- to have the ability to defend oneself from attack. Someone stronger than Orochimaru could have fucked Konoha up good. But that's true whether Konoha was attacking or defending.

Consider this scenario: Konoha goes to war against an unknown force. If this was a war of aggression, would Konoha's their ninjas suddenly going to become stronger? No, of course not. So the risk of winning and losing is the same, whether they attack or defend.

At best, they win and are hated. At worst, they LOSE THE WAR, and are in a much worse political position relative to the other countries.

Compare this to the scenario when Konoha doesn't go to war of aggression. At best, nothing at all happens. In the middle (on the bad side), an unknown force attacks. At worst, they LOSE THE WAR and are fucked politically just the same as if they had attacked.

On the other hand, espionage is a much lesser evil, and (relatively speaking) a good thing in this context. I would like to see more of that, from everybody.

Either way a war starts, Konoha has to fight for its life and survival. Wars of aggression unnecessarily leave Konoha open to risk of losing. For basically no gain.

Edit: there is also another concrete reason to dislike Danzou (or even suspect he is Madara). Danzou is using the same training methods that Madara and the Hidden Mist Village use/used -- killing your friend to gain power, a practice Madara instituted in both the Uchiha clan and the Mist.

[Archangel]

The Third Hokage was like 12. The Fourth Hokage wasn't much older than Naruto.

Where do you come up with this stuff? O_o

[Death BOO Z]

it's a common misconception. people believe that the scene in the 3rd's flashback (when he sees the light in the past and the first and second hokage tell him to take care of the village) really happened, ant that it wasn't a 'dream' symbolic sequence.

sure, I can't bring evidence that it is a dream. but I think it's more logical than saying they trusted a kid with the position (so when did he find the time to train Jiraya, Tsunade and Orochimaru if he was Hokage so young?)

[XanBcoo]

If Sasuke is a missing nin now, shouldn't Konoha take it upon themselves to hunt him down and dispose of him? Why is it simply a matter of giving the clound ninjas permission to kill Sasuke? Do they want the secrets of the Sharingan to fall into the hands of a rival village.
This bugs the crap out of me too, but it was addressed by the Raikage earlier on. So at least we know it's not an oversight by Kishimoto (that is to say, he's aware of the confusing double standard regarding the Sharingan and Byakugan).

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/417/13/

Hopefully more will be revealed next chapter to explain why Danzo is willing to let the Sharingan potentially fall into the hands of enemies.

At the end of the day, they are pretty much Assassins for hire. If they dream of world peace and flowery meadows, boy did they pick the wrong profession.
That paradox has been a major theme in this manga from the very beginning, hasn't it? Way back in the Zabuza arc when Naruto decided he wanted to become a "ninja in his own way" as opposed to being a tool used for war.

I think that's why I'm leaning towards accepting Danzo as a figure of power. It's Kishimoto's "realistic" leader among a village of idealists.

[The Chancellor]

The Third Hokage was like 12. The Fourth Hokage wasn't much older than Naruto.

?? He was at least in his early to mid 20's. That's not much older than Naruto to you?

[darkshadow]

You guys need to stop debating that BS, the only proof we have about when he became hokage was that flashback, and no naruto flashback up till now was just some symbolic shit that never happened. They all happened.

Sandaime was the youngest hokage ever and he became it around ~12, remember he was one of the most powerful ninja in history and the most powerful hokage to date. Kakashi was how old again when he became a jounin? Exactly, he and Itachi were killing jounin before naruto even became a genin.
And they weren't even close to the level Sarutobi was in his prime, not even remotely close, so stop doubting that this "kid" couldn't have become it.

Kage is simply the most powerful ninja in the village, even after he reassumed the position he still had the military advisors etc.., so as a kid he would've surely had at least one person to guide him.

[samsonlonghair]

Kage is simply the most powerful ninja in the village
That's what we've been led to believe so far. The upcoming jounin vote has me rethinking everything. If the Jounins have to vote to keep the Daimyo's appointment as Hokage, then maybe it's more complicated then that.

Hypothetically, if the Daimyo might have appointed an unsavory character like Orochimaru after Yondaime died, the Jounins would have probably voted him down. So who would have become Hokage? Do the Jounins get to elect someone else?

[Patriot]

I don't know man I'm wondering if you read my posts?

My Bad sorry, I sometimes skip your essays, but for the most part I do agree with what you say.

As for the will of fire thing, its mainly there as a tool. How else to you convince people to lay down their lives for the villiage? Some people are motivated my money, others by reputation, and some believe they need a higher calling, say the protection of their villiage.

The will of fire philosophy is to keep people fighting if you ask me. I believe what I believe in and I can kill you or die to make sure my way is the correct way.

Worked in pretty much all of history.

[XanBcoo]

Sandaime was the youngest hokage ever and he became it around ~12
I must have forgotten where either of these facts were stated.

I assume DBZ was referring to this scene (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/122/16/), in which case, the only thing that can be inferred is that Sarutobi became Hokage after he trained the Sannin (since the pictures are shown in chronological order), or at least until he was old enough to grow facial hair. Sarutobi is also shown training the sannin in a flashback, and he doesn't seem to be Hokage there, and he certainly is much older than 12 years old.


Kage is simply the most powerful ninja in the village.
Clearly not, as we just saw a meeting concerning the qualifications for becoming Hokage two chapters ago, and "power" barely came up as criteria.

Also that one dude said "Minato was even younger" meaning the 4th is probably regarded as the "young Hokage". Pretty sure if Sarutobi had been 12, that would have come up.

[Archangel]

I must have forgotten where either of these facts were stated.

I assume DBZ was referring to this scene (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/122/16/), in which case, the only thing that can be inferred is that Sarutobi became Hokage after he trained the Sannin (since the pictures are shown in chronological order), or at least until he was old enough to grow facial hair. Sarutobi is also shown training the sannin in a flashback, and he doesn't seem to be Hokage there, and he certainly is much older than 12 years old.

I think it's more because of this (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/123/14/)

To which i would reply that this would make much more sense if you interpreted it as a dream, a compilation of events that took place in his life instead of a flashback

Seriously... a 12 yr old hokage??

[darkshadow]

@Xan
Perhaps you should read a little further next time:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/123/14/

Qualifications for hokage?
Sure, but that was just because of the daimyo being intimidated by Danzou, and I'm sure Danzou isn't weak, heck we don't know how strong he is. But perhaps I should rephrase, 9 out of 10 times ( so in most cases ), the Kage is the most powerful ninja in the village.

And Arch no, Sarutobi was clearly remembering something Shodai and Nidaime told him, read the previous page over a couple of times.

[Archangel]

Was there really a need to post my page again...

And i doubt they said that to him at the same time. It would make more sense and have more meaning if they've each told him that during their reigns as hokages

[XanBcoo]

@Xan
Perhaps you should read a little further next time:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/123/14/
Ah, see that's why I assumed I must have forgotten something. I have literally no recollection of this scene.

In any case it is possible to interpret it as Archangel did above, where the first and second Hokage's advice are offered during their respective reign (since the first is speaking as if he is currently the Hokage). Not totally likely, but still possible. It's pretty vague, I'm just surprised it was never really specifically stated.

I have no trouble believing that Kakashi was about 15 or 16 when he became a jounin, but having a 12 year old leading a country is still hard to swallow. I guess the evidence is there though...

[darkshadow]

@Arch
When I was typing it up, your post wasn't there yet, I added the "and Arch no" part right after I saw your post.

@Xan
Being a Kage is permanent, Shodai was still Hokage when he appointed Nidaime, same with Sandaime -> Yondaime. They just weren't the village leaders anymore.
Also no it makes more sense for them both to say something so meaningful right before breaking the big news to him, kind of like a graduation speech of some sorts.
Plus like I said, he didn't really have to lead the country all by himself, there are plenty of advisors around a Kage that help/guide.

And iirc, the databook ages were:
Kakashi age 5 -> genin -> age 6 chuunin -> age 13 jounin
Itachi age 7 -> genin -> age 8 mastery of sharingan -> age 10 chuunin -> age 13 anbu captain (jounin?)
Yondaime age 10 -> genin -> younger then kakashi is now (30) Hokage.

[The Chancellor]

And iirc, the databook ages were:
Kakashi age 5 -> genin -> age 6 chuunin -> age 13 jounin
Itachi age 7 -> genin -> age 8 mastery of sharingan -> age 10 chuunin -> age 13 anbu captain (jounin?)
Yondaime age 10 -> genin -> younger then kakashi is now (30) Hokage. You have to be a jounin to be an Anbu captain. In fact, I think all of the anbu are jounin level.

[Patriot]

You have to be a jounin to be an Anbu captain. In fact, I think all of the anbu are jounin level.

Makes me laugh how all Anbu are jounin level and are like cannon fodder but Genin are able to defeat the ones who kill Anbu.

[Archangel]

You have to be a jounin to be an Anbu captain. In fact, I think all of the anbu are jounin level.

I don't think this has ever been verified

[TwisT]

Wasn't the people that was with Anko when they watched the tape from the second chunin exam and Gaara had finished in a record time and they where commenting on it, ANBU? If i remember correctly one of them thought to himself "It would be impossible for me, no, for any chunnin to go threw the whole forest of death with out getting a signle scratch". That indicate to me that he was a chunin. But maybe it's just me remembering wrong. Gonna go look for those manga pages and see if it really was like that.

EDIT: Found it. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/58/05/ . Seems like that dude was not an ANBU.