Umineko no Naku Koro ni

[Xrlderek]

http://forums.gotwoot.net/gallery/files/8/6/4/9/23852.jpg

Umineko no Naku Koro ni takes place in the year 1986, during the time frame of October 4 and October 5 on a secluded island named Rokkenjima (六軒島, Rokkenjima). The head of a wealthy family named Kinzo Ushiromiya, who lives on and owns Rokkenjima, is near death, and eight of his family members arrive on the island to discuss how Kinzo's assets will be divided once he is dead. Also on the island are three family members who live there, five of Kinzo's servants, and his personal physician. After the eight family members arrive, a typhoon traps them on the island and shortly after people start to get mysteriously murdered.
[Taken from ANN]

Thought I'd start this thread early. The starting date is listed as 02.07.2009 but I am not sure if it is confirmed or not ( I am too afraid of spoilers to search around too much ). This will obviously be of great interest to those who liked Higurashi no Naku Koro ni. It is made by the same people. This also is an adaption of a visual novel.

I am currently reading the visual novel ( a complete translation patch recently came out( for everything of the game that is currently out ), and it is great so far. But lets not discuss the visual novel in this thread. Anyway, I am really looking forward to this.

[Lucifus]

From Higurashi No Koro's guys eh? Definitely caught my interest.

Gonna have to hold judgement till i see er though.

[Xrlderek]

Here is a trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYOWHOOAefY


Edit: Replaced it with the subbed trailer.

[Nadouku]

Nice. I'll probably be interested in this series!

[Pandadice]

i haven't seen Higurashi, but the more I see of this the more interested I get. I'll probably end up checking it out.

[Marik]

[CoalGG]​ When​ the​ Seagulls​ Cry​ -​ 01​ [090E1882].mkv (http://t.bt.is-ingenio.us/t/%5BCoalGG%5D_When_the_Seagulls_Cry_-_01_%5B090E1882%5D.mkv.torrent)

Coalguys & gg doing a joint, wow.

[Nadouku]

Oh, good lord, this episode was so confusing when they introduced all of the characters. At least, the only person I seem to identify with is Battler because he reminds me of Keichii, except more perverted.

[Xrlderek]

Well, that was fast-paced but I liked it. I love the OP and the ending, especially the ending.

[animus]

What's the significance of highlighting just na in the OP karaoke?

[Board of Command]

What's the significance of highlighting just na in the OP karaoke?
I think they were just mimicking the style of the title, but I don't know if the red character there is "na".

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/8763/higurashinonakukoroni05.jpg

[Buffalobiian]

I'm definitely sticking with this, unless it turns out to be complete shit. It's been too long since I've seen something remotely dark and creepy.

On a scale of 1-to-10 I give Maria a 15 for annoyance. Heck, I wanted to hit her so bad, even though it felt a bit bad after Roza did it.

I bet the two who received the scorpion charm (Battler and Jessica) are the only two who won't get killed off.

I like the OP well enough, but the ED...argh.

It was good for the first 20 seconds. The music was good, and I liked his slow, deep singing. The music picking up later was fine, but his transition into a crazed lunatic turned me off.

(edit: alright, I tried listening to it a few more times. If I leave it in the background, it's sort of fine. Like I said before, the music's pretty alright. My distaste returns as soon as I pay attention to his voice however.)

[shinta|hikari]

Despite being a loli, Maria really ticked me off. I was really cheering for Rosa when she was smacking her around, and got really irritated that she still won't shut up. I kept screaming "harder! faster! stronger!" in my head, hoping the unnerving sound ceases. Well, at least the show is doing it intentionally. I would drop a show in a heartbeat if it featured such a character without knowing how annoying it can be.

[Xelbair]

Yes BoC - the red character is 'na' in hiragana.

[Marik]

uu~ uu~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_POy7aPiIOw&feature=related

---

[gg]​ Umineko​ no​ Naku​ Koro​ ni​ -​ 01​ [07A3E315].mkv (http://xabin.mine.nu/gg-tracker/torrents/%5Bgg%5D_Umineko_no_Naku_Koro_ni_-_01_%5B07A3E315%5D.mkv.torrent)

Bye bye CoalGuys. Re-encoded and with some typo/tl fixes. Also I decided to do the cool kids things where you don’t properly label your v2’s. Feels good.

Btw, the 2nd sub-track was made by a bro who played the game. Hopefully you will enjoy his hard work.(?)

We're releasing it under the romanized name so we can get more downloaders. ^o^! || Bye bye CoalGuys, you won't be missed.

[Buffalobiian]

What happened? That was a fast breakup.

[Marik]

I'm guessing that Mango-chan and Koda, just can't get along.


I decided (maybe I didn’t decide) to join gg for umineko because subbing alone is fucking tiring (for those who thinks we have o9k staff, no fuck you). I’m tired of tling/encoding/timing/doing-everything by myself. I’ll see if I can be fucked to do something by myself this season, but I highly doubt it.
Hopefully gg does it seriously, without the trolls and such.

[Nadouku]

That's pretty sad news, but oh well. :(

[Xrlderek]

The second subtrack contains a major spoiler that is also uneeded + many minor spoilers. I suggest not using it. Also, the blog comments has numerous spoilers, and I wouldn't put it past gg to put spoilers in announcements..

[KitKat]

Well, there's no way I can't watch this one seeing as how I liked Higurashi so much. I think they'll have a hard time topping that one though, because half the brilliance of Higurashi was that it was so unexpected, and you were never sure what was real and what was misdirection. The first episode certainly did cram in a lot of character introductions that I'm sure I'm not going to remember, but it did a decent job of setting the stage.

[Lucifus]

I'm sure it'll be a blast. I'm putting my trust into the Higurashi guys.

I liked it thus far, but I do share the sentiments of how annoying that sound the kid made became; but the second that B raised her hand to her, I wanted someone to put a bullet in her head. -__-

[Buffalobiian]

I'm sure it'll be a blast. I'm putting my trust into the Higurashi guys.

I liked it thus far, but I do share the sentiments of how annoying that sound the kid made became; but the second that B raised her hand to her, I wanted someone to put a bullet in her head. -__-

To Rosa's (slapper) head, or Maria's (slappee?)

[Board of Command]

You can't put a bullet in Rosa's head. She's voiced by Koshimizu Ami.

[Lucifus]

R.I.P. Koshimizu Ami. I can't condone your characters actions.
But man, those guys sure know how to annoy an audience.

[Nadouku]

I just took off my headphones when it became a problem.

[Buffalobiian]

uu~ uu~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_POy7aPiIOw&feature=related

Man that's addictive....

~Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu................

[Lucifus]

Well.....wow.

That is something, gotta say. Haha

[Marik]

Man that's addictive....

~Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu................

Addictive indeed. I love the part where it goes super fast.

[shinta|hikari]

I understand completely. I can't believe something this intoxicating can be made from something so... ~Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.......

[Kraco]

When she was beaten yet still continued to ~uuuuuu, I began to think she's doing it exactly because of that. Maybe it's some sort of a mantra she developed to escape the incomprehensible world where her mom is hurting her. And then it got stuck to her general speech.

Or seeing how she knows so much, she could just be partially autistic and have such a strange habit as a sideeffect.

But man, it was annoying towards the end of the episode. Fortunately the main dude's carefree attitude and boob groping tendencies lightened the episode up sufficiently.

[Pandadice]

alright, so i just watched the first episode and lemme try and recall all my thoughts on it..

I thought it could have just excluded Battler's whole oppai obsession O_o.. that was kinda weird. he's like "cousin! let me grope you!" and it's like, okay yeah, so you've got a bangin hot cousin. that doesn't mean you grope her man...

okay uh, at the beginning when the Maria chick is like "Sinister! Sinister!", and then with the painting again.. there were just like these spots that like seemed super like, cheesily ominous.

okay, so when ever it's showing Maria, and she's doing that "Ooo! Ooooo!!!" thing, at first I liked it. But then it got really annoying. and then i'm just like "would she shut up already??" and then her mom is like "stop doing that!" and I'm like "thank you! yes". but then the mom starts beating her, and I'm like "w-w-what?!? what am I watching??" and I kinda felt like I should turn it off..

but then at the end, it shows beatrice behind her in that real quick scene, and then they're like "hey look, she's even got her own umbrella". that whole thing was so obvious.. like I seriously said all those lines right before they did.. it's like "oh it's not mine i'm borrowing it" and then they're like "wait, from whom?" and she's like "from beatrice" and then it's like DUN DUN DUN! but it was so obvious :\.....

anyways.. it definitely had an interesting atmosphere about it.. and I am definitely going to watch more.

edit:

oh and new ep is out

[gg]​_Umineko​_no​_Naku​_Koro​_ni​_-​_02​_[F5D5399B].mkv (http://xabin.mine.nu/gg-tracker/torrents/%5Bgg%5D_Umineko_no_Naku_Koro_ni_-_02_%5BF5D5399B%5D.mkv.torrent)

[Nadouku]

he's like "cousin! let me grope you!" and it's like, okay yeah, so you've got a bangin hot cousin. that doesn't mean you grope her man...

I think Battler is just a natural pervert. He'll go for any girl that looks good in figure, like how he tried to grope the maid afterwards.

[Kraco]

That was quite a slaughter. I thought it would start with one or two persons missing or found murdered but it looks like the first night claimed a third of them or so. Beatrice is no shy witch, it seems.

Battler was kind of strange. His shocked reaction was so late that it seemed more like an afterthought. As if he suddenly remembered he should scream and be shocked as well, lest somebody starts to suspect him.

[Buffalobiian]

Now I understand why they rushed to introduce everybody. Half of them die by episode 2.

Given we've got 13 episode, I thought they'd take it a bit more slowly too, but if Beatrice has no trouble finding victims, then go for it.

Even just given the, what, 30 seconds of footage dedicated to Shannon's relationship, it stilled pained a little to see her go. That's pretty good, I'll give them that. The ring just made it all the more emotional.

I'm thinking "lady with silver hair"''s deduction that Beatrice was one of the original 18 is perhaps wrong. One reason why one would want to hand Maria the letter personally is to prove that she really existed, or at least suggest so.

You know, play a little magic to get everyone in the mood.

It's a bit too early to think about reasons or trends as to the ones killed I think at this stage, but I still thought the currently dead characters don't have much in common. Not all the money-hungry ones died, at least.

A good move not showing any preview, I must say. That's the worst thing that could happen with this kind of show.

(Funny that, I don't mind the ED any more. I even enjoyed it at parts, and it only took 3 hearings.)

[shinta|hikari]

The wife was lucky that she received that charm from her daughter. It was also smart of her to be cautious and placed the charm on the door. Otherwise, the marks all over the door would be all over her instead.

[Xrlderek]

Given we've got 13 episode, I thought they'd take it a bit more slowly too, but if Beatrice has no trouble finding victims, then go for it.



I thought it would be ~20 but it seems like 13 is the number being reported on sites.. damn.

I like some of the voice actors, and dislike others. Some sounded convincing, but some sounded bad when they were surprised, in despair, etc.

Edit: The soundtrack sounds ok so far too, enjoying the series so far.

[Nadouku]

Heh, already six deaths comfirmed and Battler's late reaction was kind of off. At least, Natsuhi was lucky to receive a charm from her daughter, like shinta|hikari said.

[shinta|hikari]

Battlers reaction was probably due to shock and confusion. When reality hits him, he then reacts like any sane person would. That, or maybe he doesn't care about the others much, and only screams when he realizes his dad is among the corpses.

[Pandadice]

okay, that was pretty awesome. so much better i thought than the first episode. definitely hooked. can't wait for the next episode >.<.

like, the first episode was just kinda interesting, but this one was like , yes.

[Buffalobiian]

Despite how much I encourage this show to leave gore uncensored, I'm happy we didn't see Shannon's (assumingly) mauled face.

Battler's surprisingly unenthusiastic about the whole riddle. That portrait suggests Beatrice may be quite the curvy witch.

[David75]

okay, that was pretty awesome. so much better i thought than the first episode. definitely hooked. can't wait for the next episode >.<.

like, the first episode was just kinda interesting, but this one was like , yes.

Same here, just finished watching both eps. I was about to stop in the middle of ep 1, deleting it and ep 2.
EP2 was a tad better, I hope the interrest will start rising.

If everything is about surprise, disguise, lies etc... then probably one (or more) of the guys thought to be dead aren't. Destroying faces is a way to cover that fact, especially on a stranded island, with no time and possibility to call the police.

Another thing to take into account is that we're in 1986, so no cell or sat phones. It's already playing a role by limiting data sharing among the 18 people. However things missing on that island is (for the moment) a radio and maybe some external security entity that would come and check if everything is alright when not having any news. After all this is a rich familly, so those 2 things should be there.

[Ryllharu]

I have to say, I like Natsuhi a great deal. While she showed just a little bit of doubt to the old man, she's a strong character, and I'm glad to see she didn't get taken out with the others. She really commanded the scene of the slaughter at the shed. Her hesitation to answer the old man seemed very telling, but what of, it is too soon to say. It would be easy to suspect her now, given she might have a grudge against the family.

What I don't get is why she alone is not allowed to wear the one-winged eagle. They said in the first episode that it was because she married in and was just a "borrowed womb." Which would make sense...except that all the other wives, all the husbands, and even all the servants wear the one-winged eagle.


I did smile at what Maria was watching on television when she didn't tag along with the others. It was Higurashi :D

[shinta|hikari]

What I don't get is why she alone is not allowed to wear the one-winged eagle. They said in the first episode that it was because she married in and was just a "borrowed womb." Which would make sense...except that all the other wives, all the husbands, and even all the servants wear the one-winged eagle.

...Incest maybe?

[MasterOfMoogles]

Not all of the servants have it, Eva's husband Hideyoshi doesn't have it, and Rudolph's wife Kyrie doesn't have it.

To be specific about the servants, Gohda and Kumasawa do not have the eagle.

You can tell that a lot of stuff was left out from the source material since the intro was so condensed.

[Ryllharu]

Hmm, now that I go back to look at it, the name plates on the intro even have whether or not they have the one-winged eagle, though I still don't get why Shannon and Kanon have it, branch family maybe?

I don't know how I convinced myself of that, maybe just because they made such a big issue of out of Natsuhi, and then I only noticed Shannon and Kanon having it in the second episode.

<--- Feels like an idiot.

[shinta|hikari]

How long will this show run for? Half or Full season length?

[Buffalobiian]

A surprising 26 episodes.

Surprising for me because I thought 13 episodes would be plenty for a mystery case on an isolated island. Perhaps they'll be a change of setting sometime down the track.

[Nadouku]

Hmm... maybe a similar approach to Higurashi? It could just be, like Bill said, a change of setting to a different mystery that could unveil itself.

[Ryllharu]

Hmm... maybe a similar approach to Higurashi? It could just be, like Bill said, a change of setting to a different mystery that could unveil itself.
This occured to me at the beginning of the second episode.

The episode title isn't "episode II" (roman numerals). It's "episode I-II." This makes me think there will be more than one take on how the events play out. Sort of like the movie version of Clue, but not funny. We may get scenarios where Natsuhi is the jealous and angry murderer, venagence for some wrong done to her other family (maybe she's even Beatrice's relative! Cliche but fun.) Later we have one where Maria is acting out her twisted belief that Beatrice exists, and lastly we get one where Beatrice herself is indeed all too real.

While Shannon (Sayo?) died this time, perhaps she and whatshisface will be the lead detectives the next time.

Disclaimer: I have never played the game, nor do I have any intention of doing so until the anime is over. The scenarios listed above are purely from my imagination.

[David75]

I'd go with the "Shannon is thought to be dead" route.
After all, we only get to see her arm, even if I understand some of the reasons for that, it's also very convenient provided you have some complices.

[Buffalobiian]

If the surviving members are smart enough to do a roll-call after this, it'd work around identity stealing fairly easily.

The only thing that would conceal the culprit would be a mask.

[Ryllharu]

Umineko no Naku Koro ni eps 3 [gg] (http://t.bt.is-ingenio.us/t/%5Bgg%5D_Umineko_no_Naku_Koro_ni_-_03_%5BA9ED672F%5D.mkv.torrent)

Natsuhi with the Candlestick in the Study!

[Kraco]

Not too shabby a murderer considering the chain lock of the door. The Grim Reaper needs to get a new whetstone before this is all over. The harvest is so bountiful the scythe will dull in no time.

Battler stays pretty cool and composed for sure. At times it seems he's actually enjoying the chance to try to solve the case. Maria gets weirder and weirder, but at least we don't need to hear ~Uuuuus anymore.

[Buffalobiian]

Why doesn't a single character comment about Maria's complete character change? "I want ice cream", "Where's my rose?" "Uuuuuu" "Beatrice is real, and you're all gonna die!!"

- they obviously noticed it, but no one gives a damn?

The "turn the chessboard around" way of thinking is definitely smart, but when the enemy knows to do the same, you'll end up concluding each other's moves as deceptions and end right back at the starting point.

For example, Battler concludes that the culprit is likely to be an insider since they're making it out to be an outsider. But you can think that they're really making him think that, and in fact it really was an outsider. Think a level deeper, and you're back to an insider.

You basically have to know your opponent's level to know how far they'll go to disguise their tracks. And how far they go to disguise their tracks will depend on how they see your own level.....argh.

[Kraco]

A murderer hiding in a group has to consider the public opinion, the public can spend all their time considering individual's opinions. Besides, if we ignore Beatrice of the story, whose only agenda would be to kill 'em all, then at the moment when they don't really know the killer's specific intention and goal, it's impossible to separate feints from reality. I don't think Battler has yet to realise the killer's simple aim could be to eradicate them all to the last person. From such a point of view it would be quite meaningless to formulate fancy analyses and theories.

[Nadouku]

Maria is one scary little kid and Battler retains his cool and composed form in the light of these events. I wonder if he'll be the key to solving this mystery? :p

[David75]

So they thought of the radio and people that would come. Nice.
Also, I guess the Shanon isn't really dead route is a dead end now.

The other question is now, why is it so long for the murderer(s) to kill everyone when they seem to be so efficient in killing the first 6, and killing that couple locked in their bedroom?

For some reason, they need people to have fear or something?
I know we need to have a show, so a mass killing in one go wouldn't be fruitful for a story.

This time, face weren't destroyed like first time, eventhough it seems the murderer had time.
I also fail to precisely recognise what was used to kill them both. Thing is, unless the murder had another tool to help, that would need quite a lot of force to go though the skull in the forehead. Because the cone is a tad large, making it more difficult to penetrate a hard part such as a skull. Altough of course I have no experience or precise idea of the force needed to do such things ;)

[animus]

Maria's contorted face is getting on my nerves. I seriously hate little child characters that flip like this.

[shinta|hikari]

A yangire loli? I love 'em.

The lack of the Uuuuuuu~ just serves to bolster that love.

[Kraco]

I also fail to precisely recognise what was used to kill them both. Thing is, unless the murder had another tool to help, that would need quite a lot of force to go though the skull in the forehead. Because the cone is a tad large, making it more difficult to penetrate a hard part such as a skull. Altough of course I have no experience or precise idea of the force needed to do such things ;)

Whatever the tool was here it looked heavy, metallic, pointed, and offering a good grip. You can't really ask for a better instrument to easily pierce the thin bone of a skull. The bone in a human skull isn't that thick at all.

[shinta|hikari]

Maybe they used a hammer, and nailed it into the skull. That would definitely make it easier.

[Kraco]

I think that would require the victim was dead or otherwise incapacitated already. Nobody's going to sit silent if you come with a hammer and a spike with the intention to kill. I deem the spike was simply driven in with enough strength. The murderer(s) were easily able to relocate several corpses to the garden shed, so strength is not an issue.

[Nadouku]

I really suspect that butler because the blood marking over the couple's door was put on after he ordered Kanon to fetch the old maid. I hope some new evidence shines some light.

[David75]

Regarding the radio, we've only been told it's out, without actually being able to control that fact.

Regarding Shannon, that would be quite the thing if George was the one killing her... I can't interpret her eye open in deep awe and tears directly, since she was so severly attacked.

Let's suppose there are multiple murderers, even some using as an opportunity... Asking a girl's hand and killing her in the next hours that way, and then faking sadness and tears... would be something.

But that's pure speculation.

[Pandadice]

well that was another good episode

i dunno about Battler's way of investigating though.. "if it's suspicious, then it can't be that". maybe if the culprits were perfect, but you've gotta allow some room for them to goof up..

[shinta|hikari]

What is good about that method of investigation is that it probes deeper, but does not necessarily rule out the obvious suspects, as Battler proved by bringing up the motive of the remaining aunt (who got killed soon after) when she tried to place the blame on Natsuhi. The obvious suspects are easily seen, so there is no danger of not giving them attention (just look at Battler's reaction when the staff confronted him about the witch). The danger lies in stopping the search with the obvious. His method prevents that.

[Board of Command]

I'd say it's one of the dead people from the first "batch" working with someone who's still alive. One of those six people were simply pretending to be dead.

The "dead" one is Shannon. Killing her masters is her twisted way of freeing herself from the lowly life of a servant. It's also her way of saying both yes and no to George. The alive one is Kanon. They're both trying to start fresh.

[Ryllharu]

More sea kitties lamenting the loss of greedy people (and Shannon):

[gg] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - 04 (http://t.bt.is-ingenio.us/t/%5Bgg%5D_Umineko_no_Naku_Koro_ni_-_04_%5BFC5DAE69%5D.mkv.torrent)


I'm glad Battler bonked Maria on the head a couple of times, she still deserves a little abuse for always laughing when her relatives or parents die.

Natsuhi continues to be a total badass.

As for the mystery, I have to admit, I am completely stumped. I don't want to believe that Beatrice is doing it for this iteration of the story (assuming there is more than one), and Maria seems unlikely given her relative size and she is often present with others when the murders occur. I've got nothing.

[Buffalobiian]

For a good second half of the episode I was convinced Natsushi was one of the culprits. With them bringing up about an illegitimate child, I thought perhaps it was Natsushi. There may be more meaning to the old gramp's words: "You may not be able to wear the one-winged eagle, but you have it engraved into your heart."

She's the only one "alive" to be around that age too, if we assume the child to be born at around the same time as the rest of the siblings. Gramps did meet Beatrice a long time ago.

I also can't think of any reason to put down a can of makeral except for the purpose of saying "This letter wasn't there when I did that!" (says she).

come on, who was hungry after seeing some well-done roast?

No one else objected to it, but neither did anyone back it up with their own testaments. They simply believed an enraged Natsushi's potentially empty claim. What logically happens when Battler goes "Ahhh!" and runs to a portrait?

Everyone looks.

That end bit doesn't rule out Natsushi, but I guess we'll have to consider there may be another killer on the loose.

Maria-bashing this time was pretty tension-easing.

[November 11]

Maria is one twisted child :p

The butler has been the most suspicious so far - he has keys, blood markings appear on couple's door after he asked Kanon to fetch cutter, he was within reach to place the witch's letter.

The only problem is now he is dead :p

[Pandadice]

man, Maria is twisted in deed. at least he hit her on the head and acknowledged her sick laughing.. but just look in her eyes, there is something up with her..

i dunno if i liked her Uuu~s over her twistedness.. i don't like either of them. she just freaks me out as a character...

man, I wanted Conan Edogawa to pop up at the end of this episode :(.. him or Viktor Burakov

[Nadouku]

Well, this episode destroyed my hopes. :(

I'm also glad when Battler decided to pound Maria's head for being so damn weird.

[Xrlderek]

http://forums.gotwoot.net/gallery/files/8/6/4/9/1248280546390.jpg

Her faces are so great. As for the mystery.. It seems hard to explain it with humans, but the creator has implied that it is possible. On the chain locked room I have no idea at all. Here is the translated introduction to the series:
http://www.witch-hunt.com/hist.html

It was written as an introduction to the game, but it contains no spoilers.

[Buffalobiian]

gg - Episode 5 (http://t.bt.is-ingenio.us/t/%5Bgg%5D_Umineko_no_Naku_Koro_ni_-_05_%5B60984414%5D.mkv.torrent)

[Nadouku]

This episode was basically the answer to everything that seemed to happen, and I caved in into believing it. Still, I want to trust in Battler because his words are strong, that maybe another person carried it out and not just Beatrice herself.

It was refreshing to see Beatrice chatting with someone familar from the other world. :p

[Ryllharu]

Natsuhi! space T.T


I like Battler's determination, and his goal of making Beatrice not exist by explaining her powers away. Still, I couldn't ask for a better VA to play a witch. Sayaka Ohara (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=1376) is one of the few who could play this role so well, and I recognized her immediately at the first evil laugh.

I liked the tea party concept as well, it was an interesting way to review things in these sorts of time-loop series. Perhaps it breaks the flow a bit, but it is a humorous way to do things. Plus we got another look at how large Shannon and Jessica's bre...*cough*

Of course I loved the references to "that other series" the most. I don't want to spoil any of it, but if you haven't seen the two seasons of it, now would be a most appropriate time.

Unfortunately, that short little converstation between "Lady Bernkastel" and Beatrice concerning "Lady Lambdadelta" contained a great number of vague-but-telling spoilers to that series. Too late to cover them up now. I still prefer the fully adult Lady Bernkastel to the catgirl version here, but...[damn this is too hard to not make the damage any worse and still comment on how much I liked that scene. I'll just edit this last part out.]

[animus]

I'm surprised Battler didn't try to grab Beatrice's tits when she first appeared.

I never watched either of the Higurashi series, so that scene confused the shit out of me.

[Ryllharu]

It's not too complicated if you've seen up through Higurashi Rei (the OVA series) to hear all of the terms used, but explaning it would contain severe spoilers for Higurashi, effectively ruining the mysteries of that series.

You'd end up knowing the true identity of the killer in Higurashi (midway through Kai, aka season 2), what role Rika really plays (beginning of the second arc in season 2), the details of the final arc of Higurashi Kai (season 2), and the final scene of Kai and the last serious episode of Higurashi Rei (eps 4).

I'm obviously reluctant to explain it here, but if you really want to know, send me a PM.

[Xrlderek]

Episode 6 (http://t.bt.is-ingenio.us/t/%5Bgg%5D_Umineko_no_Naku_Koro_ni_-_06_%5B233C733C%5D.mkv.torrent)

[Ryllharu]

I love that series like Higurashi and this begin to bleed out little details that went unmentioned in each repetition.

We now know why Kanon screamed at Beatrice in the basement. He already knew that she "existed" because Kanon and Shannon have already been primed before that fateful week in October 1986. Or that the shrine was not simply the rope catching aflame due to a lightning strike, but that it was far more than that, and Shannon, bribed by Beatrice's spectre, aided in her return.

I did a double-take at the OP. I wonder what that means? Higurashi Kai slowly changed its OP as things were revealed.

I wonder if the murders will play out differently this time or if they will stay the same.

[Nadouku]

No Battler in this episode, eh? I guess that makes sense since we did go back in time to explain Kanon and Shannon's little background with Beatrice. I, too, wonder what murders will happen in this new act.

[Pandadice]

huh, what a seemingly out of place episode. went from isolated island mansion murder mystery to high school romance drama.

so.. we're gonna see the same thing played out slightly differently? huh... and here I thought people hated Endless Eight.

[shinta|hikari]

People do hate endless eight, but that is because the variations within it were/are insubstantial.

That was not the case with Higurashi no naku koro ni, so I think it is safe to assume that will not be the case with Umineko.

[Nadouku]

Yea, I suspect that they will play this series out like Higurashi no Naku Koro ni did. You should expect the story being told from different viewpoints, different scenarios, etc.

[Buffalobiian]

Okay....I just downloaded Higurashi, so I'll get onto that in a moment.

But for starters, I thought this was just going to be a murder mystery. Now they're telling us there are real witches in this. But the murders are still performed by humans?

Argh. My mind is having a fit.

I wonder if we'll ever pick up that thrilling tension that was present during the first run though. Now that we know what happened, this ep felt like it was filling in detail, to a point.

Not that there's anything wrong with it, I was just expecting to see things discovered rather than revealed.

[Buffalobiian]

Got to love fan vids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INE5I82zdW0 (<- should make up for the double post.)

[Nadouku]

Haha, hilarious. Many of the videoes made by him were good, too.

[Buffalobiian]

It's not too complicated if you've seen up through Higurashi Rei (the OVA series) to hear all of the terms used, but explaning it would contain severe spoilers for Higurashi, effectively ruining the mysteries of that series.

You'd end up knowing the true identity of the killer in Higurashi (midway through Kai, aka season 2), what role Rika really plays (beginning of the second arc in season 2), the details of the final arc of Higurashi Kai (season 2), and the final scene of Kai and the last serious episode of Higurashi Rei (eps 4).

I'm obviously reluctant to explain it here, but if you really want to know, send me a PM.

Now's as good a time as any to watch it then, and after 8 episodes, I have to say.."shit sense not make does"

I'll keep watching since I know it'll work out. Somehow.

/offtopic.

[Yukimura]

Anyone care to place a bet on how many posts can this thread about Umineko can go without someone mentioning Higurashi? My bet as of ep5 is 2 max.

I know they are similar (thanks to certain people repeatedly pointing out various comparisons) and that most of the ~5 people who actually read this have seen Higurashi but that show does have it's own thread(s) and there are people (me) who have chosen not to watch Higurashi yet but wish to watch and discuss Umineko week to week. Would it really be so bad to discuss the similarities between Umineko and Higurashi and plot points in Umineko that match up to plot points in Higurashi and characters in Umineko who apparently also appear in Higurashi in the Higurashi thread(s)?

I know I'm a terrible person for daring to ask people to redirect their comments for the sake someone who hasn't seen something made by the same people as something else, especially since I'm apparently the only one who this applies to, but here I am doing it anyway. I humbly ask that this thread have Umineko be the focus of discussion (as boring or uninteresting as that may be to some of you) and that Higurashi be discussed in the Higurashi thread(s).

[Kraco]

Alright. I'll give an extra summer vacation to the next person (after this post of mine) who says the magic word Higurashi in this thread!

[Ryllharu]

I'm a hypocrite for even saying this against such a post...but it isn't like 7th Expansion (the writers of the games) and the staff in charge of series composition and script writing didn't absolutely intend for that crossover to happen. You were meant to know the significance and implications of that conversation.

Bernkastel's appearance by itself is pretty damn significant.


I will abide by your wishes without further comment.

[MasterOfMoogles]

It doesn't matter, since witches don't exist anyways.

[Kraco]

Shouldn't the second time through this murder play be from Battler's realism point of view? Assuming we will get a second version of it instead of more high-school drama... Otherwise there would be little meaning to the argument between Battler and Beatrice. That scene seemed to suggest it'll be a game of Battler trying to explain everything Beatrice did.

I wonder if this means Battler didn't even die yet? Since he has zero belief in Beatrice, it could be she might not even be able to kill him as easily as the others or if she still did, might not be able to resurrect him.

[Pandadice]

Anyone care to place a bet on how many posts can this thread about Umineko can go without someone mentioning Higurashi? My bet as of ep5 is 2 max.

I know they are similar (thanks to certain people repeatedly pointing out various comparisons) and that most of the ~5 people who actually read this have seen Higurashi but that show does have it's own thread(s) and there are people (me) who have chosen not to watch Higurashi yet but wish to watch and discuss Umineko week to week. Would it really be so bad to discuss the similarities between Umineko and Higurashi and plot points in Umineko that match up to plot points in Higurashi and characters in Umineko who apparently also appear in Higurashi in the Higurashi thread(s)?

I know I'm a terrible person for daring to ask people to redirect their comments for the sake someone who hasn't seen something made by the same people as something else, especially since I'm apparently the only one who this applies to, but here I am doing it anyway. I humbly ask that this thread have Umineko be the focus of discussion (as boring or uninteresting as that may be to some of you) and that Higurashi be discussed in the Higurashi thread(s).


it applies to me too :D. and I second what you said here...


I'm a hypocrite for even saying this against such a post...but it isn't like 7th Expansion (the writers of the games) and the staff in charge of series composition and script writing didn't absolutely intend for that crossover to happen. You were meant to know the significance and implications of that conversation.

Bernkastel's appearance by itself is pretty damn significant.


I will abide by your wishes without further comment.

so this is like a sequel?

[Ryllharu]

(edit) I did not intend to comment again, but it appears I have to clarify (/edit)

No, I mean they put the conversation between Beatrice and Bernkastel in there, expecting the majority of viewers to know the significance of that conversation. Beatrice's references to Bernkastel and Lambdadelta are partly 7th Expansion fanservice, but understanding the concepts discussed in that scene mean a great deal about the method and mechanics by which Beatrice's "game" with Battler will play out.

I don't mind leaving references to the series that shall not be spoken of again out of this thread, but I think that it is foolish to force any and all coversation about what happens in Umineko (such as events like that conversation) to another thread. The problem is not being solved, it is just diverting it somewhere else. The notion that Umineko material should pollute the threads about the series that shall not be spoken of again is like saying that all discussions about Nanoha in Nanoha StrikerS must only occur in the Nanoha thread, everything about side characters in Paradise Kiss must be discussed only in a Gokinjo Monogatari thread, or any Macross self-references must only take place in Robotech threads.

The result is just spoiling Umineko for members reading the thread about the series that shall not be spoken of again. It is not any different. These kinds of situations are what the Series en Fuego section is for.

My issue is that I see no reason why we should not be able to discuss things that happen in Umineko in the Umineko thread. My argument only pertains to that scene, and scenes like it, should they appear again in the future.

[Kraco]

I haven't seen what that scene was referring to, but I didn't consider it any particular problem. It was a rather interesting coversation as such, without any idea who the other one was and what were the references in their lines. So, I'll have to disagree with you, Ryll.

Maybe it's just my own peculiar nature that allows me to enjoy good scenes without knowing or understanding all the details. It's surely a breach of any shounen textbook ideology but this isn't a shounen series anyway. If I can get the mood of a scene, I can ignore lack of data to a good degree. And that's exactly what happened with that particular scene.

So, I maintain my position, at least for now, that this is a stand-alone series and shouldn't be polluted by details from other series. Perhaps I'm rudely exploiting my prerogative as a mod here but so be it. I'm sure I'm more right and less wrong here, proven by the fact I have enjoyed this series without seeing the earlier ones (except a third or so of the very first one).

[Ryllharu]

I don't think my point is coming across in the way I intended and posted, so I am going to give up here.

However, I don't want to see Umineko related posts in the other series threads. That is asinine. I will treat them and report them as spoilers.

If someone really wants to discuss the similarities between the two series, they should make another thread. I just wanted to be able to discuss Umineko events in the Umineko thread.

[Yukimura]

I also think a '07th Expansion Universe' thread would be a viable solution to the issue that didn't just push the problem somewhere else.

In any event, I noticed something I don't think enough people have remarked on so far, namely that Beatrice is a total babe for a cougar. I love her dress and her general style. I am especially fond of how she seems so fond of playing with her pipe while talking trash and cackling at the poor cast members. Somehow it adds an even stronger air of nobility or superiority to her character. I hope we see a lot more of her and he rpast, particularly how she first came to be on the island and met Kinzo.

[Pandadice]

In any event, I noticed something I don't think enough people have remarked on so far, namely that Beatrice is a total babe for a cougar. I love her dress and her general style. I am especially fond of how she seems so fond of playing with her pipe while talking trash and cackling at the poor cast members. Somehow it adds an even stronger air of nobility or superiority to her character. I hope we see a lot more of her and he rpast, particularly how she first came to be on the island and met Kinzo.

nah, i don't see her as a babe. too stuck-up.. Shanon's probably more my style, if only because she's a maid :\

[Kraco]

Edit. Damn, forgot to post the link, so I stole it from the dice playing panda's post below:

Episode 7 - gg (http://t.bt.is-ingenio.us/t/%5Bgg%5D_Umineko_no_Naku_Koro_ni_-_07_%5B8B507D9E%5D.mkv.torrent)


- - - - - - - -





Hmm... It seems the repetition will go down a road somewhat disconnected from the first one. Probably only the verse will remain from the first iteration. Or at least it would make a whole lot of sense if it did. Still, seeing how the story is again fully progressing from the start and with a new setting with Beatrice herself visibly present, I kind of fail to see how Battler and Beatrice's gamble is supposed to take place. Or is it just an independent endeavour every time until, by random chance, such a thing happens that Battler proves Beatrice's nonmagical nature or Beatrice succeeds in convincing one of Battler's reincarnations that magic exists.

Kind of complicated... It would have been somewhat simpler if in this second time through Battler had simply explained how each murder happened. But I suppose that would have been too unimaginative for a witch.

[Pandadice]

[gg]​_Umineko​_no​_Naku​_Koro​_ni​_-​_07​_[8B507D9E].mkv (http://t.bt.is-ingenio.us/t/%5Bgg%5D_Umineko_no_Naku_Koro_ni_-_07_%5B8B507D9E%5D.mkv.torrent)

ep 7 is out

[Ryllharu]

In any event, I noticed something I don't think enough people have remarked on so far, namely that Beatrice is a total babe for a cougar. I love her dress and her general style. I am especially fond of how she seems so fond of playing with her pipe while talking trash and cackling at the poor cast members.
I think that for all our recent disagreements, you and I can agree on one thing completely.

Beatrice is also a most excellent sadist. She is kind of creepy in her schoolgirl outfit. It lacks the refinement of her normal dress that fits in with all the odd and elaborate outfits that the family all has on.


Still, seeing how the story is again fully progressing from the start and with a new setting with Beatrice herself visibly present, I kind of fail to see how Battler and Beatrice's gamble is supposed to take place.
I see it as a game of chess. If it was just Battler trying to prove the murders from last time were possible as a human, it wouldn't be very fair to Beatrice. She has to be allowed to move her pieces as well. So while Battler gets to play it over with a bit of knowledge from the last time and a hardened resolve, Beatrice has made a preparatory strike by physically showing herself this time. Kanon and Shannon both know she 'exists,' and the adults are forced to admit that she is real. She simply arranged for them to meet her by giving the letter to Rosa.

But Battler isn't playing just by himself. Shannon cut a portion off Beatrice's amusement a bit by declaring that she wants nothing from Beatrice, that she will tempt her own fate, rather than relying on the supernatural. Also, not even hesitating or thinking about her social position, she accepted the ring immediately. I can't say I'd be surprised if Beatrice decided to discipline Shannon by killing George instead.


It was easier to see this time why Maria wants to believe in Beatrice and the Golden Land so much. Rosa is a bitch. She may, "come back" as Maria puts it, but it does really change that Maria's mother is completely bipolar, and deep down Maria must be miserable. She's putting all of her hope in Beatrice's existence and that the Golden Land will be a place she can happily live. Maria may act like a spoiled brat, but that doesn't excuse Rosa's behavior.

What I really don't understand is why Kanon is so completely obsessed with being furniture. Shannon has felt the same way, and has someone to support her...just like Kanon would if he only reached out. Instead, he's sealed himself into the idea that he's furniture, and for whatever reason, doesn't want to escape from that description.

[Kraco]

I see it as a game of chess. If it was just Battler trying to prove the murders from last time were possible as a human, it wouldn't be very fair to Beatrice. She has to be allowed to move her pieces as well. So while Battler gets to play it over with a bit of knowledge from the last time and a hardened resolve, Beatrice has made a preparatory strike by physically showing herself this time.

It's true that simply defending the first round wouldn't be fair for Beatrice - after all, she probably didn't plan it fully so that it would stand against somebody like Battler. However, I don't think Battler knows now everything he learned during the first round. Or do you reckon he knows already most of them will die horribly in a couple of days? Doesn't look like that.

This is essentially why the situation is analogous to monkey, typewriter, and Shakespeare. Battler has to prove something very significant not even knowing he has to prove it. Or maybe you mean he somehow only knows he absolutely zealously must deny Beatrice's magical properties without knowing the reason? I suppose that could work.

I don't think Shannon really has anything to do with this, though. It's more like random fluctuation present during different iterations, caused likely by the fact Beatrice's presence now happens to be more prominent. She believes Beatrice is a witch and is simply trying to be her own master despite of that.

[Ryllharu]

This is essentially why the situation is analogous to monkey, typewriter, and Shakespeare. Battler has to prove something very significant not even knowing he has to prove it. Or maybe you mean he somehow only knows he absolutely zealously must deny Beatrice's magical properties without knowing the reason? I suppose that could work.

I don't think Shannon really has anything to do with this, though. It's more like random fluctuation present during different iterations, caused likely by the fact Beatrice's presence now happens to be more prominent. She believes Beatrice is a witch and is simply trying to be her own master despite of that.
I agree, and I said, "a bit of knowledge." It was pretty obvious that he still didn't even know who Beatrice is, but he did seem to have a little more determination, mentioning he'd believe in her if she did something impossible. Once the murders start, I expect him to be a little more zealous than just saying he's going to turn the board around 30 times.

Shannon doesn't, directly. They're all playing against Beatrice, and Shannon may actually be more motivated to fight against Beatrice than this incarnation of Battler this time around. Like having a teammate that you don't know about.

[Kraco]

Shannon could indeed be more motivated (for now) if she considers Beatrice represents the old order (that makes Shannon furniture). However, I'm inclined to think her kind of resistance is of considerably less interest to Beatrice than Battler's. There must have been plenty of people during the history who didn't want to obey Beatrice but having someone who genuinely denies her core identity, not just her supremacy, must look worth the challenge (or lets say a game) even to an immortal.

[Buffalobiian]

Wait....this is confusing.

So Battler #2 is trying to figure out who kills who this time round, while Beatrice #2 is being played by Beatrice #1, but Battler #1 can only look on?

And the whole idea is for whichever Battler is playing to conclude that the murder in whatever iteration he's participating in is done via human means, while the first one goes unsolved?

This is beyond my comprehension, and if that above is the case, it feels kind of pointless.

[HARUHI 2009 SPOILER]

It's like Kyon trying to figure out what Haruhi wants to do, but he starts fresh every time while Haruhi keeps changing her mind.

[END SPOILER]

PS: I approve of Beatrice in school uniform. :cool:

[Pandadice]

beatrice in a school uniform?

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5952/snapshot20090812173931.jpg

nah, i still don't like her...

overall, this episode just.. wasn't that interesting for me. i just don't get the point of the series. maybe i just can't appreciate the artistic and genius story delivery that this series is executing.. i mean, i recognize it as a clever concept, but i'm just not drawn in while actually watching it.

mm how many episodes is this supposed to have? like 24 or something? if it's gonna be a 24+ ep series i might drop it now. but if it's just like a 12-15 ep i think i'll keep going, just for closures sake, since then i am already half way..

so does anyone know the ep count for this series?

oh and i just really don't like maria as a character.. it like they add in this child abuse to get us to feel bad for her and understand why she's super evil and twisted.. and i don't like it. one second shes getting beaten and i'm like "why did they put this in here??", and then the next scene she's talking about witches and doing her evil face/laugh and I'm asking "can they just take this character out entirely?" :\

[Nadouku]

So, Beatrice reveals herself this time around and almost everyone acknowledges her while the Beatrice from the past, along with past Battler, are trying to torture each other. Man, this is one complete pool of mind break.

[Buffalobiian]

@Pandadice: Umineko is scheduled to run for 26 episodes.

[enfant d'hiver]

I adored Higurashi, so this is certainly a series I am following. However, I confess to being a touch confused by the scene in ep.6 where Battler declared to Beatrice that he would conclusively prove as well as insist on her nonexistence... even while affirming his belief of it to the extent that he would actually carry on a conversation with her. Ah well. I suppose I shall understand it eventually.

(Or so I hope.)

Another thing I rather like about this anime - and please pardon me if someone has already mentioned this - would be the noticeable influences from Agatha Christie's classic novel, And Then There Were None. The absent (or shall we say 'mysterious'?) Mr. Owen finds his parallel in Beatrice, I suppose.

[Kraco]

I adored Higurashi, so this is certainly a series I am following. However, I confess to being a touch confused by the scene in ep.6 where Battler declared to Beatrice that he would conclusively prove as well as insist on her nonexistence... even while affirming his belief of it to the extent that he would actually carry on a conversation with her. Ah well. I suppose I shall understand it eventually.

I said a while ago I will ban the next person to say the magic word referring to an earlier series, but I'd feel bad banning a newcomer, so I'll let it slide this time, especially since the endless comparisons seemed to end back then.

Other than that, Battler isn't trying to deny the existence of somebody standing in front of him. He's just trying to prove Beatrice is not a witch and that the murders weren't performed with magic.

[enfant d'hiver]

To M. Kraco

Ah, thank you for the clarification on Battler. At any rate, my excuses for the reference to a separate series. I did not see that post, quite unfortunately, but duly note it now.

[Marik]

[Nipponsei] Umineko no Naku Koro ni OP Single - Kata Tsubasa no Tori [Shikata Akiko].zip (http://tracker.minglong.org/torrents/%5BNipponsei%5D%20Umineko%20no%20Naku%20Koro%20ni% 20OP%20Single%20-%20Kata%20Tsubasa%20no%20Tori%20%5BShikata%20Akiko %5D.zip.torrent)

[Ryllharu]

Once More Unto the Breach

[gg] Umineko​ no Naku​ Koro​ ni​ - 08 (http://t.bt.is-ingenio.us/t/%5Bgg%5D_Umineko_no_Naku_Koro_ni_-_08_%5BF96F3601%5D.mkv.torrent)

[Pandadice]

rofl, what did i just watch? Kanons in the room giving her her asthma medication, and then beatrice summons a hoard of demon goat butlers with energy swords and kanon enters combat with them? WHAT!? rofl, that has to be the most ridiculous thing..

wait, no it got better when beatrice anthropomorphised two of the seven deadly sins into evil school girls who turned into spikes and stabbed kanon and whats-her-face.

ahaha.. i just.. i just can't take this seriously anymore.

okay, but on another note, when they all burst into the chapel and it shows the dead bodies, and their stomachs are blurred out? lol? after seeing that i just couldn't react seriously to the same scene of everyone running in and crying about their parents. not that the scene would have had any meaning anyways, since its the same thing that we already saw..

but, i must say that when Battler and Beatrice popped up in the chapel, in the paused-mode where they discuss the happenings, i think i finally got whats going on. and now i'm interested.. only.. i guess i might be a little interested, but i more just really hate Battler now as a character, for being so stupid and stubborn...

okay, but then in the end when she introduced the red-words rule, i definitely got interested then.

but at the end she said "if you deny magic then you have to admit it was one of your relatives" but why would he have to do that when she introduced herself as a physical guest in the mansion? it's clear that she killed them, he just has to figure out how she did it not using magic.

man, this episode seriously needed some Rose-beating-Maria time. everytime maria gets on the screen it just makes me want to turn it off.. i hope she's one of the first to die next round.. if there is a next round.

but really.. they're in a mansion and dude has to sleep in that chair?

[MasterOfMoogles]

but, i must say that when Battler and Beatrice popped up in the chapel, in the paused-mode where they discuss the happenings, i think i finally got whats going on. and now i'm interested.. only.. i guess i might be a little interested, but i more just really hate Battler now as a character, for being so stupid and stubborn...

You give up way too easily to the witch. All of the murders so far have been pretty easy to prove without magic. Hardly anybody has alibis during most of them. Especially that there is an extra person running around on the island.

You just have to assume that the magical scenes are not actually quite what happened. The witch obviously isn't going to show you the true scene, because then she would be disproved!

[Ryllharu]

You have to remember that the reason Battler is allowed to play this game is that he doesn't believe in her magic, and the others do. It's the same reason that Beatrice didn't kill Battler with her magic...she can't.

All of the others believe, especially Maria, Kanon, and Shannon. Jessica believed in her strongly as well, as soon as she found the room empty and read the letter, written in a way that Beatrice heavily implied she was using her powers. As long as that belief exists, Beatrice can kill them using "magical" means. She seems to be able to twist and augment reality as she sees fit. If Battler can prove that Beatrice did it through human means, the truth exists instead, be it Beatrice doing the killing or one of his relatives.

I'd have to go back and check, but I wonder how augmented the reality of the murders were when Battler was nearby or in earshot. Natsuhi died in a fairly common manner last iteration, simply getting shot in the forehead, and Battler was only on the other side of the door.

As for the format of the game, I definitely like this better than I thought. He's not just some barely aware revision of himself, he and Beatrice seem to have the versions of themselves in the iteration of the murders, and their other observer selves. The game pauses, they discuss, and move their respective pieces before the game continues. There is a lot more deduction involved, especially with the red text (that I presume must be a cute reference to the game).


By the way, I loved the cameo of Aki Toyosaki (Yui from K-ON, Koyoi from Hatsukoi) and Yoko Hisaka (Mio from K-ON) as Lust and Wrath.

[Xrlderek]

I wondered how they would implement the red text, they dealt with it nicely. Didn't like the censoring this episode though. It felt slightly fast paced too but other than that I really liked it.

[Kraco]

As for the format of the game, I definitely like this better than I thought.

What manner of symbolism is it, though? How would you explain this game in a concrete manner? After all, according to the hypothesis, Battler doesn't believe in magic, so obviously he can't be experiencing those argument scenes like we see them, because observing another iteration of reality and pausing it for convenience's sake is quite deep in mysticism.

Well, that detail doesn't personally bother me at all, at least so far; I'm buying the format quite nicely (for convenience's sake).

The furniture scene was strange, though, no matter how you look at it. But at least it explained how exactly Beatrice does what she does to mutilate people without getting her dress dirty.

[Ryllharu]

What manner of symbolism is it, though? How would you explain this game in a concrete manner? After all, according to the hypothesis, Battler doesn't believe in magic, so obviously he can't be experiencing those argument scenes like we see them, because observing another iteration of reality and pausing it for convenience's sake is quite deep in mysticism.
While I definitely considered that, I left it as this being Bernkastel's promised aid for Battler. I had assumed she was going to be reviving him over and over the way Beatrice remarked on Bernkastel's method of defeating Lady Lambdadelta, but now I wonder if this is what she meant. Battler may not believe Beatrice's magic is killing off his family members, but if Bernkastel is providing this aid then he may not have issue with it. We can't forget that she is watching this game too.

It certainly provides a contradiction though.

[Nadouku]

They actually censored something? Oh well... the scene with the goat butlers and Kanon was so hilarious that I forgot what I was watching for at first.

[Buffalobiian]

rofl, what did i just watch? Kanons in the room giving her her asthma medication, and then beatrice summons a hoard of demon goat butlers with energy swords and kanon enters combat with them? WHAT!? rofl, that has to be the most ridiculous thing..

Rather than thinking it was ridiculous, I thought it was insightful. I explained Kanon's obsession with remaining as furniture -because he's created as furniture. If you take into account that Kinzo could actually summon a witch, then it's not too far fetched to say it's also possible for him to create something much less.

Of course, that is if you believe there's a drop of magical existence in this show. ;)

After revealing the game format, I take back my words about this being "pointless" somewhat. I'm still waiting for them to reveal what happened in the first iteration by the end of it, but this deduction game is actually getting somewhere.

[MasterOfMoogles]

What manner of symbolism is it, though? How would you explain this game in a concrete manner? After all, according to the hypothesis, Battler doesn't believe in magic, so obviously he can't be experiencing those argument scenes like we see them, because observing another iteration of reality and pausing it for convenience's sake is quite deep in mysticism.

You don't have to explain the game itself, that is a devil's proof. There could be X method of inducing said visions, not magical in nature, that you cannot disprove.

[Kraco]

You don't have to explain the game itself, that is a devil's proof.

It's no such thing. It's not the focus of the story and thus conveniently bypassed. I simply thought to mention it because I paid a little attention to it when it happened, but like I said, it doesn't disturb me. However, while their game is Battler trying to explain how the murders could occur without magic, it's only Beatrice's whim that makes such a thing needed or even possible. There're any number of very simply things Beatrice could do in a second to prove magic exists - and if magic exists, there's no reason why it couldn't be used for murdering.

Unless, of course, Ryllharu is correct and Battler's stubborn anti-magic mindset actually prevents Beatrice from performing magic when he's observing. Such a case would actually force Beatrice to accept the game as much as it does Battler himself.

[Kraco]

A drop of magical existence:

Episode 9 - gg (http://t.bt.is-ingenio.us/t/%5Bgg%5D_Umineko_no_Naku_Koro_ni_-_09_%5B7FA5B6F7%5D.mkv.torrent)

[Buffalobiian]

The action this week should satisfy even those who thought last week's was lacking. When did Shannon learn to backflip like that?

I'm liking this repeat much better than the first one because of the amount of screen time Shannon, Beatrice and to a lesser extent Rosa are getting. I never liked that George's cocky mother. While I miss Natsushi a bit, the above combo more than makes up for it.

I stand by my words about how this new version by Beatrice doesn't help solve the original case until (from what I can see), but it's definitely making things interesting. Even if they played everything from a difference perspective, I would have gotten bored before the 26-episode run was over.

Entertainment > Logic/sense.

[Kraco]

I find it a little disappointing and worrisome that Battler gave up. While it's nothing so extraordinary as such: Many ordinary crimes go unsolved even by professionals, it still doesn't bode well for the game between him and Beatrice. If he gets into a habit of saying: "I can't explain it but it wasn't magic", hasn't he already lost the game?

[Buffalobiian]

If he gets into a habit of saying: "I can't explain it but it wasn't magic", hasn't he already lost the game?

That would be a draw. He can't explain the crime, but he's not ready to give up because he still thinks it can be explained, just that he hasn't figured it out yet.

When he figures it out, he wins.

When he thinks he's exhausted all options and accepts the fact that it has to be magic (this will come naturally when he truly believes it can't be explained), Beatrice wins.

As long as he doesn't give in, he can play another round.

[Pandadice]

The action this week should satisfy even those who thought last week's was lacking. When did Shannon learn to backflip like that?
.


If he gets into a habit of saying: "I can't explain it but it wasn't magic", hasn't he already lost the game?

alright, after reading those posts i'm not even gonna bother downloading this episode..

[Nadouku]

So much supernatural stuff happening that I can't even distinguish what is suppose to be real and what isn't. Battler better not go out just yet! He has to have more options up his sleeve!

[Ryllharu]

That would be a draw. He can't explain the crime, but he's not ready to give up because he still thinks it can be explained, just that he hasn't figured it out yet.
It ends in a draw because Battler can't prove it, but Beatrice can only ask him to believe in magic. He of course refuses. Beatrice could win by forcing him to acknowledge and witness magic.

But again, only strong believers witnessed the extraordinary again. The old lady believes in Beatrice, and Shannon certainly does, so just like with Kanon and Jessica, Beatrice is able to ramp up the level of absurdity. Battler, being sequestered in the room with Rosa and the rest of the head family, is notably not present once again.

So, I think this reinforces that Beatrice cannot use magic around Battler or someone else who simply doesn't believe. She generated an absurd scenario to kill Jessica and Kanon, but in the end it just became another fairly mundane "closed room" puzzle to Battler. Beatrice didn't even try to bring up any of what we saw last episode, and there was no damage to the room. Sadly Battler wouldn't doggedly pursue every lead (he didn't even ask if all the servants had their keys right that minute!), and he painted himself into a corner when Beatrice refused to answer and he didn't question the holes in her testimonies.

She is upping the ante with this new scenario, creating two more deaths, but creating three direct witnesses to the supernatural occurence. Battler will have a bitch of a time disproving this. Beatrice even left physical evidence of a large bladed weapon with that hole in the floor.

[Kraco]

Battler will have a bitch of a time disproving this. Beatrice even left physical evidence of a large bladed weapon with that hole in the floor.

They don't presently have Kanon's corpse, though. If the survivors mention Kanon's name, it will point to him, and Battler can just disregard the fancier parts of the story, attributing them to shock or whatever. Since the doc is dead, even if they find Kanon's cadaver later, nobody is really qualified to say whether he died before or after the kitchen incident.

Unless Beatrice cheats by red lettering that Kanon was already dead back then. In which case Battler would say the remaining servants are wolves. Or scrap the whole idea of believing in Beatrice's ultimate truth - why should he anyway, since in the end it means nothing. It's like the judge would believe the accused always speaks the truth. As stupid a belief as believing in magic, surely, and only convenient for Beatrice but a nuisance for Battler.

[Buffalobiian]

Unless Beatrice cheats by red lettering that Kanon was already dead back then.

She already did that. Battler asked her to repeat that "Kanon died in the room (when they were in the closed room)", and she repeated with red letters.


he didn't even ask if all the servants had their keys right that minute!

I would have thought that was obvious too. I've lost some of my confidence in Battler after that weak interrogation.

[Kraco]

She already did that. Battler asked her to repeat that "Kanon died in the room (when they were in the closed room)", and she repeated with red letters.

Indeed, I forgot all about that. I don't know what Battler will think about that if Kanon's name turns up when they ponder the kitchen attack. Personally I'd dismiss the importance of the red letters entirely from that point on, even if I didn't necessarily yet decide Kanon actually did it. But I see no reason why Battler would need to trust Beatrice's word any more than the servants', even if Beatrice can summon fancy red letters. One could surmise Beatrice might be honest because it'd make the game more interesting for her, but on the other hand she's a bloody murderer so what's a little lying if it amuses her by confusing Battler? I doubt she has any morals to begin with, anyway.

[MasterOfMoogles]

Without the red truth, you really don't have much of a game.
"Magic exists, I did it."
"Witches don't exist, any number of things could have happened."
Sure, Beatrice could have lied when she said she tells the truth in red, but that would be lame.

I think this episode helps explain a few things. Right now, I'm leaning towards Rosa as the culprit, at least for this particular game. We saw Rosa in the chapel with everybody else the night they died, which I think is super suspicious. Add that to the fact that she was the one who retrieved the chapel key (and was there when it was given to Maria by "Beatrice"!) and I think it's pretty easy to say Rosa killed the first 6, probably poisoning them first.

However, I doubt Rosa could do all of that alone, so she must have had one of the servants help set it up for her, as well as for the Jessica murder. You know Kanon didn't kill her because they liked each other, and I seriously doubt Shannon killed anybody here. The other 3 servants could have been involved, as none have alibis (neither does the doc, I think, but they needed at least a key, so maybe the doc is also in on it).

The scene with Kanon later suggests that Kanon did not actually die, but what about the red text? I'll argue that when Jessica died protecting him from the murderer, "Kanon" died. "Kanon" isn't his real name, right? And they made a big deal about that as Jessica was dying. I bet he threw away the name "Kanon" here and decided to resist. In this way "Kanon was killed in this room." This leaves Kanon available to come back later.

About what happened in the kitchen, we're going to have to wait and see what Battler actually hears about this situation. I can already think of a couple different scenarios though.

That's my theory so far, what do you guys think?

[Ryllharu]

I don't know if I'm ready to accept that family members aside from their own grandfather are killing them (or maybe Maria because she's so obsessed with it). Just because we saw a burnt body last time with six toes doesn't mean that it was Kinzo, and he is certainly alive right now as far as we know in this iteration.

However, I do like your name theory with Kanon and "Kanon's" death. I still can't think of a reasonable explanation about his appearance to the other servants, particularly given how much he hates Beatrice, but that would definitely get Beatrice around her own lie. She is free to twist those statements of truth as much as she wants, and Battler is not equipped to easily see through them because he simply doesn't know as much as she does about everything.

I'm still pissed he hasn't be pushing those statements harder, especially with some of the obvious ambiguities that exist within them.

[Buffalobiian]

Just to add this this Kanon stuff, the evil version had a blue blade, while the original used a red. All the "furniture" Beatrice has summoned previously used blue blades, discounting the Sins.

In that regard, I believe evil Kanon is summoned by Beatrice.

If we play with the whole "magic works if you believe", then this might indicate that all whose who saw evil Kanon were able to because they either believed Kanon was alive, or he was a culprit (despite what comes out of their mouth).

The former is much easier to believe, since if they assumed Beatrice had possession of Kanon's body, what use would she have for a dead one, and the reason to retrieve one corpse and not the other.

[Kraco]

One corpse and not the other:

Episode 10 - gg (http://t.bt.is-ingenio.us/t/%5Bgg%5D_Umineko_no_Naku_Koro_ni_-_10_%5B0C69B3A8%5D.mkv.torrent)



- - - - - - - -





Edit: I give up. Not watching the series but believing in Battler and even the game between him and Beatrice. And also believing there's any trace of mystery to this show. It's just action horror. It's almost strange how the beginning of the show got people speculating and thinking but now it's getting totally and completely moot. Even Battler himself is giving up, although that's only the weakness of his personality speaking.

I'm also tired of Beatrice's red letters. Watching this episode I realised one simple thing about it as well: Beatrice's red letters might tell Beatrice is telling the truth - as far as she knows it. But exactly how is she supposed to know nobody ever made a private copy of some key for their own nefarious purposes? So, she could red letter there's only five keys, but in reality there could be six. She simply doesn't know of the sixth one.

[Ryllharu]

Beatrice's lovely cackles were a weak consolation for how disappointingly weak Battler is. While I did expect them to finally get a clue and start challenging Beatrice's riddle, giving up is such a waste. With any luck, he'll only get one more chance, because he sure isn't very entertaining anymore.

Then Shannon can take over as the protagonist! At least she has the will to stand up to Beatrice still.

For how ungodly annoying she has been, I really liked the look on Maria's face at 9:49.5. There's nothing but hate there. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if she was channeling Beatrice, rather than Kinzo. Rosa is an even bigger bitch than we ever thought, but I smile a bit every time she mentions wolves and sheep. Perfect reason for Maria to want Rosa dead along with everyone else, if only to get her "mother" back.

[Nadouku]

I really like how this "new" Battler believes in magic and everything that was setup by Beatrice. He also receives a kiss from Maria, which I found to be the most comforting piece from Maria herself. Anything other than her psychotic nature when Beatrice is mentioned, and Rosa... I don't even want to start with her. Natsuhi was even a better person last arc, so bring her back!

[shinta|hikari]

Natsuhi was actually a good person. Most of the older generation (if not all) are not. I think it runs in the blood.

[MasterOfMoogles]

The show is definitely a mystery. It only no longer becomes a mystery if you give in to the witch and her fantasy. Battler is super-weak right now because he refuses to believe the family/servants has anything to do with the murders. If a fantastical 19th person actually did exist, then they do have magic powers because they couldn't have had the necessary keys. However, once you start thinking that maybe some of the family/servants are involved, it becomes easy to disprove the witch.

Regarding the red truth, the purpose of it seems to be so you can tell some of what actually happened when you're shown scenes that obviously did not happen as shown (no goat monsters are running around the mansion, obviously). If you don't trust the red truth, then there really is no basis for the mystery vs. fantasy debate (and it would be a super lame move by the writer).

Following on with my theory from last post:
At this point, I think Gohda is the strongest suspect for being Rosa's accomplice. He was last alone with Jessica and Kanon, and he probably could have helped Rosa set up the Halloween party as well as poison/kill the siblings.

So, "Kanon" comes in the door. He looked like "Kanon" at first, but he really wasn't. "Kanon" had died and Kanon's true self is now was out for blood to revenge Jessica. I'm going to guess he was pretending to be wounded, but maybe Gohda hurt him in the fight. I'm not sure why he would have attacked/killed Nanjo and Kuma (if that is what even happened), but after that, it seems like Gohda pinned him to the wall and Shannon got something to knock him out with (chloroform maybe?).

At that point, the 3 made up a story to tell the ohers. My guess as to why Gohda is so nervous is because he was supposed to have killed Kanon off. Shannon is probably crying because she is lying to George, and Genji is super-cool about the whole thing. Kanon is probably chilling tied up in some secret room at this point.

I feel like the letter is extra-suspicious, because who would have wrote it? Rosa couldn't have because it mentions the 2 corpses. None of the servants really seem surprised about the letter, and it has to be one of the 3 because of the keys (perhaps Shannon and Genji carried off knocked out Kanon and Gohda secretly did this?).

I don't have enough to piece together the motivations at this point. There are a ton of unanswered questions here, but there is definitely no witch involved. Don't give up so easily!

I'll have to wait to see what happens with George/Shannon before I decide what actually is happening there.

[Nadouku]

After reading this, I might have to renew myself and not give into the witch, like I was planning to. These recent episodes left me despairing over the fact that magic does indeed make these murder scenarios realistic, but now, I will have to double-think and "read beneath the board".

[Buffalobiian]

I was initially thinking Battler II was faking his belief in magic to get closer to the culprit, or clues to the culprit. I still think it's a possibility, but the odds look slim now that even Battler I is falling apart.

[Yukimura]

So we're supposed to not believe in magic? There's a chick who turns into butterflies and time has reset at least once. I don't see any point in denying magic except for the sake of being stubborn.

Anyway, where has the old man been all this time? If I remember correctly he didn't die with the first 6 this time, and even commented on that, but he has yet to be seen by the rest of the group right? And shouldn't the master of the household be carrying around an uberkey to his own mansion?

[Kraco]

I don't quite understand the format of this show if indeed one is not supposed to believe in magic. Why are we seeing all those crystal clear magic filled scenes then? The first time through was plausible considering that theory since we did see only the results of very fancy ways of accomplishing murders but no clear shots of goat head demons or other fantasy elements. What exactly are those scenes if they aren't happening?

[MasterOfMoogles]

The fantasy scenes are simply the magical version of the events that Beatrice claims happened. If she showed you what actually happened, it wouldn't make for much of a game, would it? She's already in such a terrible position, I can only imagine how bad it would be for her if she showed you the real events.

If you're really worried about how Batter can be seeing these events, you can argue that there is a non-magical method X of giving someone such visions and we just don't know what X is.

[Kraco]

Ho... So, in essence, what we have been seeing now during this second time through is not actually happening? It's just a vision, kind of like a simulation or a storyboard, that Beatrice composed and so all the fantasy elements are, objectively speaking, only extras that Beatrice added while Battler should be only concentrating on the final results and trying to explain how the stuff could have happened without goat head demons and other otherworldly elements.

Well, I suppose that could be it. But it still feels a bit like a stretch to be honest. There's disproportionally much focus on the magic and too little on any mundane explanations. But maybe that's only because Battler apparently doesn't have what it takes to see through it and offer any realistic explanations.

[MasterOfMoogles]

That's pretty much my current theory. And hey, don't diss Battler too much. Lots of people have already given up to the witch.

[shinta|hikari]

Could it be that Battler 1 can only see the events through the eyes of the Battler in the current story iteration? That would explain why he did not immediately believe in magic despite the repeated displays of supernatural events. Battler simply was never there when all those happened, and only saw the results like the closed room murders. This absolves him of being stupidly stubborn, but now makes him look weak for giving up despite the fact he has yet to personally see a supernatural event.

[MasterOfMoogles]

The Battler watching the game sees everything we do. The in-game Battler knows nothing of the metagame.

Battler is just being weak because he wants to blame it all on this 19th person instead of accepting that possibly someone he knows is a murderer.

[shinta|hikari]

Are you sure? Battler 1 has never mentioned anything supernatural, or any information that the Battler in-game does not know. All of his comments and deductions seem to be based from what Battler in-game has seen in that iteration.

If he can actually see black goats running around and still think it is not magical, Battler 1 must be retarded.

[MasterOfMoogles]

Meta-game Battler definitely sees everything we're shown. In ep 7 Beatrice shows herself in-game, and meta-Battler and meta-Beatrice talk about it. Game 2 Battler did not actually see Beatrice. (And I don't think she actually exists on the island.)

Meta-Battler is not retarded to deny the witch even after seeing fantasy scenes. If I show you a picture of the world being flat and tell you it is flat, should you believe me? I hope not. In much the same way, Battler should not believe everything the "witch" shows him.

[shinta|hikari]

Isn't the fact that he is being shown these things magical in itself? In fact, the entire game is magical, including the repeated iterations, red text, even both Beatrice and Battler 1's presence. Battler denying magic could only mean that he thinks he has gone insane and delusional, or there is some amazing scientific tool that can show him such illusions.

Showing me a map does not demonstrate the flatness of the world, since it is a mere representation. What Beatrice has done though, is very different. She has demonstrated that magic works, since the scenes with her and Battler cannot happen without magic. A better analogy would be, being taken into outer space in a space suit, and seeing the world is round, yet still insisting that it is flat, or even worse, that there is no outer space at all. That is exactly what Battler is doing now. That baseless stubbornness seems pretty stupid to me.

[MasterOfMoogles]

You give up way too easily to the witch. There could easily be X non-magical ways of showing Battler these visions, we just don't know what they are. Drugs, hypnosis, you name it. It is a devil's proof.

[shinta|hikari]

That is what is strange about it. The only reason we can doubt the existence of magic is because we can consider such possibilities. Battler on the other hand, has not shown any indication that he is suspecting such means. Instead, he seems to have completely glossed over the fact that he is in a reiterating game watching himself.

So now we have two possibilities. One, Battler does actually consider that what he is seeing is induced by something non-magical, but simply does not mention it or ponder about it for some reason, or two, he is an idiot. Until any proof is shown supporting possibility one, I am inclined to believe the possibility with less assumptions.

EDIT: I am still hesitant to actually consider drugs or hypnosis as a means for inducing such vivid, detailed, and complex scenarios. It is just implausible, especially hypnosis since Battler is a skeptic.

[depthcharge]

All this could just be Battler's imagination? Schizophrenia anyone?

[shinta|hikari]

I'm pretty sure I mentioned that when I said that Battler might be insane.

[Pandadice]

ep 11 is out

[gg]​_Umineko​_no​_Naku​_Koro​_ni​_-​_11​_[83F4B471].mkv (http://t.bt.is-ingenio.us/t/%5Bgg%5D_Umineko_no_Naku_Koro_ni_-_11_%5B83F4B471%5D.mkv.torrent)

[Xrlderek]

Spoilers about the episode below:





Great episode. No mystery/speculation at all(except Battler and Rosa suspecting each other), which is a little disappointing. Loved the grotesque scenes. Maria's promise was great. Good "fight" scenes. I thought the dialogue between the witches was slightly short but other than that I thought it was great. Beatrice is pretty awesome. Oh and there was no censorship. That Rudolf pie was disgusting.

The background music was definitely amazing.

[David75]

Umm, rubbed the wrong way, for some eps now.
I think I'm going to drop it.
Definately not what I like, seek, want.

[Ryllharu]

No mystery/speculation at all(except Battler and Rosa suspecting each other), which is a little disappointing. Loved the grotesque scenes. Maria's promise was great. Good "fight" scenes. I thought the dialogue between the witches was slightly short but other than that I thought it was great.
I disagree about the mystery and speculation completely. The bookends of the episode (Shannon and George's death scene and the discussion between the witches) were the most important parts.

That Bernkastel hasn't been an observer is interesting. If she is as formidable as Beatrice claimed at the end of the first arc, then Battler may have gained an incredible ally, while Beatrice has gained a very large foe. On the other hand, now that it seems Lambdadelta, the witch who is absolutely guaranteed to slay her target, isn't quite dead, Battler may be in even deeper than he thought. I like the dynamic between the three, Beatrice's amusement, Bernkastel's dignified disgust at Beatrice's personal taste, and Lamdadelta's mischievous fury at Bernkastel.

The other key point, was Beatrice's reaction at Shannon and George's trust in each other. Beatrice is usually much amused by those who oppose her. She certainly is at Battler, and she loves to toy with Kanon. The same has typically been the case with Shannon as well. Until her speech about her and George's love. Beatrice became swiftly very serious, and enraged, something that we have never seen before. She had a very negative view of love and relationships. That they were only physical, that George would look at Shannon lustfully and just use her. Shannon defended their bond, and pushed Beatrice over the edge.

When you combine that Kinzo's behavior, and especially his remarks about apologizing to Beatrice, it becomes a potentially huge character development for Beatrice. There are rumors that she wasn't simply his alchemist, but perhaps his mistress as well. Did Kinzo seduce Beatrice, then betray her? Perhaps this lead to her death, and she is attempting to return for vengeance. She simply needs Battler to acknowledge her, as the others do.


While I want to think that Maria figured out that Rosa lied to her, that scene was more likely Beatrice torturing Rosa the same way that she toys around with Kanon's semi-dead body.

As for Battler, I'm glad he has his spirits back, but he is still pathetic for giving up in the first place. Maybe Bernkastel can straighten him out.

I think Bernkastel finally solved our dilemma about how the hell this was all happening under the rules of the game. Beatrice was cheating. She was trying to force Battler to give up. The "one-sided game that isn't entertaining" simply wasn't fair in the first place, just a display of Beatrice's power. She was giving Battler all these helpful hints, like the red text, but making it impossible to be explained without magic anyway. That's why she created not only one "closed-room" riddles, but two.

[Xrlderek]

I should have clarified, I didn't mean that the information was useless or anything like it, just that they spent very little time on trying to figure out who the human culprit/culprits are. The last murders weren't even analyzed or even thought about.. and Battler's weakness was disappointing. The backstory and characterization was nice.

Bern's comment about the one sided game could just mean that the game was dominated by Beatrice. I will be a bit annoyed if it turns out that the situations are impossible to explain without magic at the end, I hope that is not the case, but I think the intro to the series that I linked earlier is pointing out that it is hard but possible.

[Nadouku]

Well, what can I say? Magical things... happened, but the torture with Rosa is what I liked best. Other than that, Battler appeared out of nowhere and challenges Beatrice again, hopefully winning this time and not giving up. Good luck to you, Battler!

[MasterOfMoogles]

I like how in-game Battler only sees the "magic" AFTER he has been drinking in the dining room.

[Buffalobiian]

I didn't think too deeply about the mystery because it doesn't make much sense to me. Visually, this episode was good.

Battler hitting on Maria followed by Maria innocently complying was funny.

[Ryllharu]

The chessboard resets once again:

[gg]​ Umineko no Naku Koro ni​ -​ 12 (http://t.bt.is-ingenio.us/t/%5Bgg%5D_Umineko_no_Naku_Koro_ni_-_12_%5B75504BD3%5D.mkv.torrent)

I love the changes to the OP this time. So much more is added, that the upcoming arcs could be a considerable test indeed.

------------------------------------------



Beatrice is ramping up her number of allies, so I wonder where Bernkastel and now Lambda are going to manifest themselves now that they have decided to openly enter the game.

It looks like this arc might be Eva's lead. There is a bit more depth to her than we had thought, now with her split personality (maybe it is Lambda?) from her ambitious younger self. It also seemed like Rosa was a bit more timid and far less assertive than she was. Perhaps the events of the last iteration have wormed their way into her personality? She still left Maria in the rain, since that event has yet to change from iteration to iteration.

I think that most importantly, we learned that Beatrice is not precisely who she claims to be. Maybe she simply inherited the name as a title, but Beatrice was taught by another witch of the very same name.

Beatrice could be Kinzo's lover and somehow have remained youthful with her powers, or she could simply be the daughter of his mistress.

It seems we will have to accept that magic is a possible reality, all dependent on belief. If Battler can convince everyone (Kinzo and Maria being the hardest) that magic cannot possibly exist, the Beatrice would be forced to act as a human, without any supernatural allies. I suppose her own belief would still grant her some power, but the effects would be minimal, and her powers would vanish completely once Battler could prove they could all be performed by human means.

Battler has a focus now, hopefully it will be much harder for him to fall apart like last time.



As for the OP, after watching the full episode before looking at it again, it looks like the girl in the portrait is now Eva! The hair color and eye color combination matches Eva's young persona. If Eva's youthful belief that she should be the head were strong enough, she may have become a witch of sorts herself, which is how she manages to manifest herself...in front of herself. Or so her young persona says.

I can't figure out who the girl falling past the moon is. Maybe a young Rosa?


EDIT 2:

Back in episode 5, Bernkastel named Beatrice an Endless Witch, which we learned this episode from Old Beatrice means that she should be able to fix things endlessly as the highest class of witch. But Beatrice only uses her powers to break things endlessly, tearing happiness from the Ushiromiya's. She is not being a very good student.

[Buffalobiian]

The pacing of this new arc is good. I found the last one a bit slow comparatively.

Beatrice being Kinzo's daughter is an interesting idea, and very plausible too. The only thing I found weird would be why Kinzo still calls her Beatrice instead of whatever birth name she had.

If the preview was indicative, Beatrice would have killed Old Beatrice after she became of age, so she wouldn't have used the title until then.

[Nadouku]

Battler seems comfortable sitting on the couch and discussing matters with Beatrice. Looks like something's going on somewhere when Battler finally gets a lead on.

[Marik]

Umineko no Naku Koro ni ED Single - la divina tragedia ~Makyoku~ [Jimang].rar (http://www.nyaatorrents.org/?page=download&tid=86691)

MegaUpload (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=HV2WWA20)

This song is so f'n awesome.

[Buffalobiian]

Umineko no Naku Koro ni ED Single - la divina tragedia ~Makyoku~ [Jimang].rar (http://www.nyaatorrents.org/?page=download&tid=86691)

MegaUpload (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=HV2WWA20)

This song is so f'n awesome.

His pose is awesome. Totally.

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/1707/coverej.jpg

[Marik]

Haha yeah. He has a cape and everything. His live shows are probably amazing, visually.

[Ryllharu]

Stupid Battler, tricks are for Beatrice.

[gg Umineko no Naku​ Koro​ ni​ 13 (http://t.bt.is-ingenio.us/t/%5Bgg%5D_Umineko_no_Naku_Koro_ni_-_13_%5B6C617730%5D.mkv.torrent)

[Nadouku]

The former Beatrice? Oh man, this is so confusing, but at least I like the seven sisters that came out to "play" with Kanon.

[Buffalobiian]

I don't even know what to say about this anymore, but each repetition seems to be more enjoyable than the last, so I can't complain.

[Ryllharu]

[gg Umineko no Naku​ Koro​ ni​ 14 (http://t.bt.is-ingenio.us/t/%5Bgg%5D_Umineko_no_Naku_Koro_ni_-_14_%5B62566F98%5D.mkv.torrent)

It seems like ever since Ronove came into play, he has been undermining Beatrice's authority. He interrupts her diatribes, ignores her, occasionally even throws a snide remark her way, and here he even cut her off, as if he was running the show.

It seems more like the children play with each other (Beatrice and Battler) while the adults (Ronove and 'Virgilia') are really running the game this episode. They also brought quantum theory into the show, just in time for Railgun!

Still, if Eva has found the gold, doesn't that mean that she has "won" and the game ends? I suspect things won't go quite the way the riddle and Beatrice has implied they will.

[Nadouku]

I like the random magical things that happen, so much that I forget what I was originally looking for. Oh well, at least Battler seems more confident in his argument, with Virgilia's help, of course.

[Buffalobiian]

I loved how they gave such a long-winded, technical name to describe what we'd call an unproven hypothesis. More simply put, an idea.


It seems like ever since Ronove came into play, he has been undermining Beatrice's authority. He interrupts her diatribes, ignores her, occasionally even throws a snide remark her way, and here he even cut her off, as if he was running the show. I just saw him as rather defiant since he's conscious that he's a valuable piece of furniture, but I completely agree regarding this episode. In that last round, Ronove and Virgilia were pretty much teaching their respective sides how to play.

I wish they'd explain what the "sweetscent river" was.

[MasterOfMoogles]

So, if they didn't die from an accident, suicide, homicide, or trap, what did they die of? What does that even leave?
Animals? (this might be construed as an accident?)
Natural disaster? (accident as well?)
Natural causes?

This first twilight is extremely different from the last 2 first twilights:
1) 6 bodies gruesomely killed and thrown in a shed.
2) 6 bodies gruesomely disemboweled and left in the chapel.

I feel like one of the smarter adults must have come up with this one:
Rudolph, Kyrie, Eva, maybe Krauss? Perhaps they discovered the plot that usually kills them in the first twilight, and it involved the servants?

The doc is also terribly suspicious since he never has alibis for anything. Nanjo telling them not to shake Shannon was also pretty strange. Did he not want them to wake her up? Haha. Since we haven't seen any red, I even have doubts as to how many of these people are dead.

[Ryllharu]

It finally hit me now that they brought in quantum undead-cat theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrödinger's_cat) into the series.

This is why Beatrice likes to murder people in closed rooms. She quite probably has to. As long as the room is shut and locked, the undead-cat state exists. In this case, it isn't whether someone is dead or not, but the whether that she can use magic or not.

So long as no one opens the room, just as Battler and Virgilia pointed out about the courtyard, Beatrice can claim that anything could have happened there. In this case, the sin furniture turn from spikes into girls. No one else is left alive in the room, so there isn't anyone to refute Beatrice's assertions. Once the room is opened, magic cannot exist anymore, especially because Battler doesn't believe in it, and only a dead body, killed by normal means remains, because that is what Battler witnesses.

The only reason he can't explain it is because he needs to come up with a make-believe version himself. He can make up all the scientific mumbo-jumbo he wants, and it will be the truth just as much as Beatrice's magic is, so long as no one opens the door and creates another version of the truth.

[MasterOfMoogles]

That's some pretty crappy magic. It can only kill people in such a way that they could have been killed by normal people?

It seems to me like the "magic" here is roughly on the same level as "imaginary friend". My imaginary friend exists and you can talk to him, you just have to believe! He actually wrote part of this post for me!

The reason Battler can't explain the murders is not because he needs to come up with a make-believe version, it is because he doesn't know. Just like us, Battler doesn't know who the real murderer(s?) are, or their motives.

It's a piece of cake to break any of the "closed" rooms we've encountered so far. In fact, I think there are 2 likely explanations for this one.
1) The adults grouped up and murdered some people. In this case, they could set up the situation as it was. Of course they "find" a key on Shannon's body, they used it to lock the door earlier.
2) The servants actually set this up. Genji, Shannon, and Kannon are all not actually dead. One of them simply locked the door before faking death.

I'm not sure which I like better. I like to think the fantasy scenes have some grounding in reality. This makes me think maybe Genji "killed" Shannon and Kannon. Then maybe "killed" himself? Of course, the doc is on on it with them.

[Xrlderek]

Use the link below, the one I linked had no subs.
Will watch now.

[Buffalobiian]

gg - episode 15 (fixed) (http://t.bt.is-ingenio.us/t/%5Bgg%5D_Umineko_no_Naku_Koro_ni_-_15_%5BA7C4019B%5D.mkv.torrent)

[Xrlderek]

Yeah, didn't notice straight away, there was no sub track.. lol I kept watching for 3 minutes after the OP without noticing that I understood less than 20%.. I must be dead tired today.

[Ryllharu]

The episodes of this keep getting more and more interesting. Beatrice gets more and more character development lately too, a wonderful touch.

Beatrice seems to be losing a great deal of control she once had over this game, or perhaps more importantly, the facade of control that she once made look absolute is falling away, and we're finally seeing how weak she really may be.

When Battler slapped her, Beatrice immediately reminded me of a young child. A little girl who doesn't think she did anything wrong, and is shocked when no one has any sympathy for her. Battler abandoning her really cut into Beatrice deeply. She went too far, and only after she gets punished does she realize how far she was going.

After that, she mercy-killed both Maria and Rosa, though the latter death was still fairly brutal. I think the rest of this arc may have her losing even more control to Eva. According to Beatrice's scenario, Eva has all the power now, similar to the situation with Beatrice and Virgilia earlier.

Perhaps Beatrice is really afraid of being left all alone? Either way, she has become one of the deepest characters in the series.

[shinta|hikari]

Sayaka Ohara did a fantastic job this episode, managing to make a psycho witch sound extremely cute, especially in her dere moments.

While I liked that there was indeed a Beatrice character in the show, I didn't like her all that much because of her yangire qualities that seemed to go overboard with her hysterical laugh, but this episode changed my mind. A multi-faceted tsundere with a touch of yangire is fantastic.

[Ryllharu]

Yes, she played it wonderfully. I wonder how far Beatrice will have to go to get Battler to play with her again.

[shinta|hikari]

I think just showing Battler her boobs would work wonders.

[Buffalobiian]

This episode explains Ronove's character completely. Compared to him, each Beatrice (at least the last two) must seem like a little girl. Even if he's technically serving them, his long established status as the carer must grant him a great deal of freedom.

[shinta|hikari]

Do you guys think the servants will betray Beato and side with Beatrice instead? That would be an interesting development, since the only ones that will ally themselves with Beato if that did happen is Battler, and maybe Virgilia.

[Nadouku]

Hmm, never thought I would see Beatrice care about Battler. They are enemies, as she said, but I guess having too much fun can have that effect. Wonder what will happen next?

[shinta|hikari]

Even Battler apparently cared about Beato to a certain extent, as he said so himself.

BattlerXBeato ending??? Yeah, right...

[Buffalobiian]

Do you guys think the servants will betray Beato and side with Beatrice instead? That would be an interesting development, since the only ones that will ally themselves with Beato if that did happen is Battler, and maybe Virgilia.

I was expecting that to happen this episode. They're respecting their former master out of pure respect, but when there's a conflict of interest between the witches, they'll have to back the younger one. At least Beato was brought up by Virgilia and hence harboured some feelings towards her, but Eva was one crazed bitch, who has just been granted powers to do whatever she wants.

Eva's still listening to people because she's still grasping the concept that she's a witch. Once that reaches her head and she realises she's more powerful than any of them, she'll kill those who oppose her, including the preceding Beatrices. I actually expected that to happen towards the end.

[MasterOfMoogles]

Lucky for Beato that Battler isn't playing the game, because so far it looks like she doesn't have a chance on this board. Eva (maybe with Hideyoshi helping) killing Rosa and Maria is just way too easy.

[Buffalobiian]

gg - Episode 16 (http://t.bt.is-ingenio.us/t/%5Bgg%5D_Umineko_no_Naku_Koro_ni_-_16_%5BEF8DCF87%5D.mkv.torrent)

[Nadouku]

Battler seems to be in command of the board once again, but he seems to have a lot of authority, as well. I guess Beatrice is coming back onto the board next session.

[Buffalobiian]

Everybody has a soft spot for Beato. The effect is much more prominent when they're contrasting her to the utterly ruthless Eva-Beatrice, despite how only a few episodes ago, Beato was acting in exactly the same manner.

I actually started to forget Battler had a mum and a dad in the game. His only crying scene lasted for such a short amount of time it seemed everyone dying afterward were as impartial to him as it was to Beato.

[Xrlderek]

Episode 17, GG (http://t.bt.is-ingenio.us/t/%5Bgg%5D_Umineko_no_Naku_Koro_ni_-_17_%5BC3909328%5D.mkv.torrent)

[Nadouku]

Amazing how much power Battler has for a human being to actually correct someone like Beato. She's even trying to change so that Battler will recognize her as a real witch. Seems like Ronove supports Beato.

[Ryllharu]

A forlorn Beato is a cute Beato.

What surprised me is it has taken all this time for Battler to reveal he has a younger sister! She is the final girl in the current OP it seems, and perhaps she will play a role in the next arc. Where has she been all this time?

The change in Beato is quite dramatic. She may get Battler to acknowledge her after all, she just had to finally grow up and remember the lessons her teacher once told her. I'm still left wondering where Bernkastel's "aid" comes in to play here. Beato can keep restarting the game until Battler acknowledges her, so I wonder how Bernkastel has been helping, if at all. Lambda assisted fighting Battler's side by endorsing Eva-Beatrice.

I really can't stand the green-haired bunny girl's voice. I've never heard Eri Kitamura sound so totally obnoxious. The other one is fine, and none of Beato's former furniture ever bothered me nearly as much.

[Buffalobiian]

I'm impressed at Ronove's integrity at not calling Beato out.

Even more so, is how they continue to make Beato completely hatable while making Eva-Beatrice totally unforgivable despite starting out the same way. The turning point for me was then each of them got slapped. Beato woke up. Eva killed her husband.

[oyabun]

What will happen if the ritual stopped? Is it neccessary for a Golden Witch to exist? Now that Beato have a new outlook on being a witch, she will want to stop the ritual. I doubt Eva would allow that. Or it is still a different "board"?

[Xrlderek]

Umineko 18 (http://t.bt.is-ingenio.us/t/%5Bgg%5D_Umineko_no_Naku_Koro_ni_-_18_%5B83F65B85%5D.mkv.torrent)

[Ryllharu]

Damn, I really enjoyed all the nasty twists this episode took.

Beatrice playing nice to get Battler to acknowledge her was a brilliant stroke, and we're back to really having no idea whether she means it or not. Even going as far as sacrificing herself to take out Eva-Beatrice to make herself look selfless. I suppose it is to Battler's credit that he thought something was a bit out of place right before Ange showed up to save him from being forced into admitting it.

Also very interesting was that Lambdadelta is really running Beatrice's side. In the end, it is really devolving into another way for Lambda to fight and destroy Bernkastel. From Lambda's words, Beatrice doesn't even seem to have enough existence to manifest herself continually without Lambda's endorsement. It does make me wonder that if Lambda has such a strong influence, why is it that Bernkastel's only allowed move seems to be the ability to throw Ange into the game?


As a final comment, 12 years sure did one hell of a number of Eva. She looked like she was 70 or 80.

[shinta|hikari]

After the Tsun, go Dere...

Best plan of all time, and it almost worked if it weren't for the sister. I mean, who wouldn't have been fooled by that blushing Beato?

I am thinking that since Beatrice is initially part of the game, so is Lambdadelta since she controls Beatrice. It may be relationship that precedes the game. Bernkastel simply joined in as support for Battler, making her influence significantly less compared to the others.

[Ryllharu]

Beatrice complimented Bernkastel when she first showed up on defeating Lambdadelta, a Great Witch. Bernkastel is a real witch herself as well, so the both of them should be more powerful than an unacknowledged Endless Witch like Beatrice, who will only gain her full powers when Battler recognizes her.

On the other hand, we can't really say that Lambda has more power than Bernkastel. Both of them are in Beatrice's territory, and Lambda's only influence so far has been endorsing other witches, Eva and now admitting that she's the only reason Beato can still continue on.

It is a strange relationship all around. Battler's insane magic resistance allows him to trump any of Beatrice's powers, but she is largely powerless outside this territory without him. Bernkastel and Lambda obviously exert their own powers outside of this specific space (their earlier battles being alluded to in eps 5 and when Lambda first shows herself).

From Virgilia's explanation, Beatrice is ranked higher than both Bernkastel and Lambda, but only if she is recognized. Yet Lambda seems to hold the greatest power following this latest arc.

And by Bernkastel's admission, Ange will take be the "final" Beatrice, and claim her title as Golden Witch...

I'm very confused. :confused:

To review:
- Bernkastel can transcend time and eventually allow miracles to occur.
- Lambdadelta can absolutely kill without fail (except Bernkastel).
- Beatrice can do anything, but only once she has been recognized and no one can provide a more plausible explanation, yet Lambda now holds her reigns.

[Buffalobiian]

we're back to really having no idea whether she means it or not.

She certainly hesitated before she went back to crazy-face after deredere mode. She must have liked going dere in Battler's presence.

I don't understand why Virgillia would help her though. Was she also acting nice the entire time, and that she's just as ruthless a witch as Beato is?

Ronove certainly overrode his authority this episode, going so far as to push Eva-Beatrice into her seat. Even his "certainly" comments were said without a hint of respect, only courtesy.

I really have no idea what's going on in the Lambda - Beato power relationship. I can only think that Beato needs Battler's acknowledgment as much as she needs Lambda. Just as Lambda was Eva-Beatrice's endorser, she may well be Beato's endorser when Virgillia passed on her title. Regardless of how much your power grows, your senior's endorsement may be a requirement in the hierarchy of witches.

[Board of Command]

Best twist of all time. I shat bricks.

[oyabun]

I agree! I'm completely shocked! But I knew something was up because the # of episode is still 18. So it there should be something left. I was anticipating it and the result didn't not disappoint me.

[MasterOfMoogles]

Well, I think it's pretty safe to say Game 3 was committed completely by humans.

My guess at Beato's red text: "No murders on this game board were committed by witches." Battler is so gullible, covering his ears.

I think it's pretty obvious that Eva committed the majority of the murders this time. Especially considering she said as much and shot Battler in the end.

[Nadouku]

Hahaha, as expected of Beato, such act can be misleading! Wasn't Ange Battler's sister?

[Buffalobiian]

Wasn't Ange Battler's sister?

That she is. Her hair colour and "no good...no good at all" is an exact replica of Battler's. Hopefully she'll be better at solving puzzles.

PS: They managed to use the "Over 9000!" cliche without sounding lame. Good on them.

[Yukimura]

Awesome Ep. The 'deredere' Beatrice bugged me ever since she showed up, people shouldn't just do 180 degree personality shifts like that. I almost wanted to write it off as her previous callousness somehow being related to the Endless Power which she passed to Eva within the game but I couldn't square that away as the personality shift was just too jarring.

When Battler finally accused her of faking her help I was on the edge of my seat waiting for her to let loose that sweet cackle and Beatrice didn't disappoint at all. Well played indeed.

[Xrlderek]

Has anyone tried figuring out the red web of truth concerning Nanjo's murder? Thought I'd list them all.

After Jessica was injured, Eva was under Battler's constant surveillance. Therefore, Eva has a perfect alibi for murdering Nanjo.

At the time of Nanjo's murder, Battler, Eva, and Jessica were alive.

At the time of the crime, only Nanjo and Jessica were in the servant room.

Jessica Ushiromiya did not commit murder!

Eva and Battler weren't involved in Nanjo's murder either!!

No more than 18 people exist on this island!

Nanjo's death was a homicide, and the culprit killed him from point-blank range!

Red only tells the truth!

[MasterOfMoogles]

Has anyone tried figuring out the red web of truth concerning Nanjo's murder? Thought I'd list them all.

After Jessica was injured, Eva was under Battler's constant surveillance. Therefore, Eva has a perfect alibi for murdering Nanjo.

At the time of Nanjo's murder, Battler, Eva, and Jessica were alive.

At the time of the crime, only Nanjo and Jessica were in the servant room.

Jessica Ushiromiya did not commit murder!

Eva and Battler weren't involved in Nanjo's murder either!!

No more than 18 people exist on this island!

Nanjo's death was a homicide, and the culprit killed him from point-blank range!

Red only tells the truth!


I think it's pretty easy. Someone else killed him.

Best bet is Kanon for a couple reasons.
Kanon can be "dead" and still be alive, according to my theory.
Kanon shows up and helps Jessica escape.

Guessing the motivations for people is significantly harder. I feel like game 3 is the hardest to sort out at the beginning.

I think this is the game where "things went wrong" for the regular murderer(s). Obviously a couple unusual things happened, all of the servants "died" and Eva found the gold.

I feel like game 3 is probably servants vs. adults at the beginning, with Nanjo playing both sides and some of the servants faking death. After that, Eva finds the gold, and it becomes a 3-way battle. Kanon probably kills Nanjo because he was going to kill Jessica or he had betrayed their side in some way and he found out.

[Ryllharu]

Has anyone tried figuring out the red web of truth concerning Nanjo's murder? Thought I'd list them all.
Jessica Ushiromiya did not commit murder!

Eva and Battler weren't involved in Nanjo's murder either!!

Isn't the difference between these two terms the key? Eva and Battler were not involved [in any way] in Nanjo's murder, but Jessica merely did not commit murder. Perhaps she caused Nanjo's accidental death inadvertently. She didn't commit murder, but her actions led to his death.

[Buffalobiian]

Nanjo's death was a homicide, and the culprit killed him from point-blank range!



If the subs are 100% accurate (which I doubt), then it would cause some problems with Ryllharu's proposal, since it's referring to Nanjo's death as a homicide AND a murder, meaning whoever killed him did it with the intent to kill.

That said, I'm more inclined to believe the term "murder" is there for convenience, while the meaning behind "homicide" was used very intentionally.

[MasterOfMoogles]

What's extra funny about the word homicide? The definition is generally the killing of a human being by a human being. That would mean that it was another human besides Eva, Battler, and Jessica, and not a witch.

Since there are only 18 people on the island, either someone is not really dead, or someone is managing to be 2 people at once and there is a mystery 18th person.

I feel like the web of red is there to force you to realize someone is not actually dead.

[Buffalobiian]

What's extra funny about the word homicide? The definition is generally the killing of a human being by a human being. That would mean that it was another human besides Eva, Battler, and Jessica, and not a witch.

Human here is synonymous with "person". A witch counts.

What I was getting at is that "homicide" includes both "manslaughter" and "murder", and therefore the legitimacy of using the (subbed) word "murder" in the other red statements, as murder encompasses killing intent.

[MasterOfMoogles]

Either way, Jessica accidentally killing Nanjo is pretty silly. And since witches don't exist, I'll go with one of the other people faking death.

[Xrlderek]

Umineko 19 (http://t.bt.is-ingenio.us/t/%5Bgg%5D_Umineko_no_Naku_Koro_ni_-_19_%5B39CA4F87%5D.mkv.torrent)

[Nadouku]

Interesting. The little comedy at the beginning was pretty refreshing to see after all that tension before and now Beatrice throws in a new rule called "Blue". Lets see if Battler and Ange can play this game well together.

[Ryllharu]

Ange is pleasantly curvy in appearance, but, she seems to have turned into a rather cold and embittered bitch. She mentions how much she misses her family, and particularly Battler, and then she badmouths him multiple times once she's reunited. Whatever happened in those 12 years seems to have turned her just as rotten inside as some of the adults in the family (at their worst, no one is wholly good or wholly evil here).

Perhaps her mental image of Battler didn't quite add up to reality?

As for Eva, I do think I believe her and that guy talking to Ange. Despite what she said to Ange on her deathbed, we have seen multiple sides to Eva plenty of times, and often enough, she seems to care for her own family more than anyone else. Would she have killed the others? She probably has it in her. But there's no way she'd kill George, even if she would be more than happy to kill Shannon (maybe even right in front of him).

Seeing Battler fight one of the sisters over his breakfast was funny. In addition, while Beatrice seems to have returned to her original nasty self, there is certainly some lingering elements of her nicer side tucked in there. Even if her change of heart was all an act, she does seem hurt when Battler gets really angry at her and refuses to play directly with her...or if Ronove lies and implies that might be the case.


I like the latest changes to the OP again. It looks like Maria may finally get to become the witch she always dreams of being.

[Buffalobiian]

Perhaps her mental image of Battler didn't quite add up to reality?

I certainly agree with that. She was rather fond of her memories of Battler, but when she learnt about the game system from Bernkastel (I assume), she must have been rather disappointed, given how much ability she seems to have.

That jump scene was fuuny. Cars usually look like that after someone dies from landing on it. If she's already learned self-reinforcement in such a short time, perhaps she really does have talent.

I also liked how she referred to Maria as an older sibling. My imagination ran wild depicting an older Maria actually taking care of people rather than having people look after her. With her cheerful and less-than-cynical nature, I can see her being quite a fun, caring Onee-chan, unless she inherits Rosa's Multiple Personality Disorder.

That last scene had me confused, since I take it that it was Beatrice's "response" to Battler's Blue. The old man standing there may not necessarily be Kinzo, if there is an old man standing there at all.

[shinta|hikari]

Am I the only one who thinks that Ange is simply putting up a strong front? She can't exactly reveal herself to be Battler's sister, and she probably figured that the best way to help Battler is to be strict with him. I think the line she said to Battler about the fact that there is someone waiting for him supports this.

Ange's interaction with Maria also shows that she is very affectionate to the people she loves, and judging from the information we have so far, Ange loves Battler the most. It is difficult to believe she would change so drastically simply by seeing her brother fail, which is hardly inconceivable considering what he is up against. She is probably simply controlling her desire to be all dere with her brother at this point. Acting all bitchy can help achieve that purpose (like how kids try to hide their affection by bullying their crushes).

[Buffalobiian]

Ange's interaction with Maria also shows that she is very affectionate to the people she loves, and judging from the information we have so far, Ange loves Battler the most.

I agree with this, but I also think she'd feel annoyed at how Battler's failing at something she may find easy, or where his approach to the problem is obviously incorrect to her. Looking at her love for Battler, I predict he would have been someone she relied on and looked up to when she was little. I wouldn't be surprised if that childhood admiration lead her to believe that Battler would be better than her despite being of similar age. The greater her expectations of him were, the greater the disappointment.

Not to say she doesn't love him anymore, but I don't see her attitude as being as much of a "strong front" as you suggest.

[MasterOfMoogles]

As for Eva, I do think I believe her and that guy talking to Ange. Despite what she said to Ange on her deathbed, we have seen multiple sides to Eva plenty of times, and often enough, she seems to care for her own family more than anyone else. Would she have killed the others? She probably has it in her. But there's no way she'd kill George, even if she would be more than happy to kill Shannon (maybe even right in front of him).

Eva admitted that she was the culprit to in-game Battler, our only assumed reliable viewer of the events in any given game. I doubt she killed George directly. I have a couple different theories on how George died when he went back and woke Shannon up and talked to her.

Given that Kinzo is dead, that changes up quite a few things about the game. Nanjo is immediately a huge culprit/accomplice in every single game. That makes sense, as he never has an alibi anyways. Krauss, Natsuhi and the servants (Shannon, Kanon, Genji) immediately become highly suspect as well. Basically anyone who has had a scene with the dead guy is extremely suspicious.

This also explains why his body is burnt every time! Hides the fact that he's been dead for a long time.

Having an extra person running around the island almost makes the mysteries too easy. I feel like you don't even need the extra person anyways for any of the murders so far.

[Sapphire]

Can someone explain the blue?

[Xrlderek]

Can someone explain the blue?
Not sure if you mean the blue in general or the latest blue text but anyway:

Kinzo Ushiromiya is already dead. Therefore, the true number of people on the island is 17.
If we add an unknown person X in there, it becomes 18. If we suppose this person exists, the crimes will still be possible even if all 17 people have alibis!

Beatrice said earlier that there are no more than 18 persons on the island, which forced Battler to find the culprit among those 18(the family + nanjo + servants is 18 people). If Kinzo is dead, then there are only 17 people that Battler knows of, on the island, meaning he can reason that there is another person doing the murders, making them much easier to explain.. Most arguments thus far has been about alibis.

He also won't have to blame someone he knows, but he has been ready to do that for some time already either way now.

Edit: It should be mentioned that the blue truth isn't really "truth", it just forces Beatrice to deny it. That was probably obvious but I thought I should mention it just in case.

[Yukimura]

Umineko no Naku no Koro ni - 20 - [gg] (http://t.bt.is-ingenio.us/t/%5Bgg%5D_Umineko_no_Naku_Koro_ni_-_20_%5BE67BECA9%5D.mkv.torrent)

Is any one else getting lots of video glitching with this release during the OP?

EDIT: According to gg's site CoreAVC interacts poorly with the latest x264 build they used and that's the cause of my video woes. Just FYI for anyone else who has CoreAVC and notices the nasty playback on this release.

EDIT 2: My solution, close video player, unregister CoreAVC via the option in the Start Menu folder created upon install. Make sure H.264 box is checked in CCCP settings, start video. Seems to have worked fine (other than the whole 95% CPU utilization thing on my poor Pentium 4.

[Ryllharu]

I didn't even need to unregister CoreAVC. I just went into CCCP and turned h.264 back on. My computer is fast enough to not have any issues. Hopefully CoreAVC will give us a new release soon.


As for the episode, I really liked that the first thing that Beatrice, and Lambda try to do once Battler finally gains what should be his first real ally, is undermine her confidence, and even try to turn her to their side. Especially because it is the very first time she is alone since breaking into this world. Very insidious, and an excellent strategy. Everything for Ange actually does hinge on believing in magic. The slight happiness she experienced talking to a ghostly Maria, being reunited with her brother, actually finding out what happened at the island.

So Lambda is right, the current incarnation of Ange is being tempted the same way that Beatrice tempted Eva's young incarnation. The past changes and invalidates the current version, which then must struggle to exist. The question is whether or not Ange has enough virtue to let herself fade, and a distinctive lack of pride in her own miserable existence. I am very interested to see her answer.

The only thing I'm not clear on, is whether Maria is helping her, or working with the witches to undermine her. Maria was right, Ange could have been happy, if she would only try to look for it instead of the misery she clings to. Maria isn't exactly happy, that's why she wants to go to the Golden Land with Beatrice, but she does generally make the best of it. Maria just wishes that her mother would be happy too, so they could both be happy together.

[shinta|hikari]

It does seem that Ange really does care for her brother a lot, and that her tsun tsun behavior is merely an act. Even now after seeing how miserable Battler is, he still seems to be 90% of the reason she is even there. Still, it is quite obvious she will not take the bait of being together forever with her onii-san in the infinite cycle. Otherwise, the story will come to a halt without any other outside influence.

[Ryllharu]

Personally, I think it would be a great deal more interesting if Ange took up Lambda's offer and decided to work against Battler while playing his ally. We've seen it once with Beatrice, but she was rather overt in assisting him and making herself look good (reviving Kanon for Jessica, getting pulverized right down to her heart, etc). Ange is no less ruthless, Eva raised her after all, but she comes off considerably more subtle.

And it isn't like the story can't go forward anymore, after Beatrice's betrayal, Battler said it himself, he doesn't...no, can't afford to trust anyone other than himself for the rest of the game. He won't trust Ange any more than he trusts Ronove.

If this is the last arc and they're not going to a second season, then you're probably right. If they are, then I'd like to hope that Ange accepts Lambda's offer, at least for a little while. If she does though, what might Bernkastel do when she finds out?

[Nadouku]

A little light sheds into Maria's path, but the part where she became an Apprentice Witch was kind of surprising to me. I found it amusing that they humanized Maria's doll, though.

[Buffalobiian]

That was a lot more backstory than I was expecting. I suppose this mean Maria met Beato before the events started, hence why she was so insistent that Beato and magic existed, along with her knowledge of charms and such.

It's ambiguous as to whether Ange is existing in both 1998's reality and 1986's board-game at the same time, or whether the events of her gathering information in 1998 was a flashback compared her "self" that's traveled back to 1986 afterwards. It doesn't matter that much, but it'll be interesting if she's trying win over Beato by playing her game while doing retrospective research in the future at the same time.

I swear there is no Sin called Mammom. Those sisters keep getting less sinister by the episode.

[MasterOfMoogles]

Mammon is the symbolic of greed, one of the 7 deadly sins.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammon

[Xrlderek]

Umineko 21 (http://t.bt.is-ingenio.us/t/%5Bgg%5D_Umineko_no_Naku_Koro_ni_-_21_%5B6EF4E653%5D.mkv.torrent)

[Nadouku]

Well, magic doesn't always bring happiness. One thing I really hated was Rosa's reaction. All Maria wanted was her mother's comfort and all she gets is more mental abuse.

[Ryllharu]

Wow, Rosa is a complete bitch. Even after the arc where she was the last adult and they tried to make her likable and be somewhat sympathetic towards, in the end, she just neglects Maria for her own personal happiness. A complete contast to Battler and Ange's "mother," Kyrie, who deeply cares for two children who aren't even her own, but rather her deceased love rival's children.

I was greatly amused by the boat Ange was on, the Hanyuu Maru.

It was also interesting to see the Purgatory Sisters in a more...conciliatory mood. They won't kill unless their Mistress is willing to spill blood on her own hands. Quite the contrast to what we've seen from them being controlled by Beatrice or Eva. I guess it shows that deep inside, Ange is a nice person, and the Sisters' behavior is a reflection of that. Ange is lonely and has no friends, so they act as companions and friends more than devices for murder.

With the way Ange speaks of Maria as Onee-sama, I now very much want to see what an adult Maria looks like.

Lastly, with Ange being the head of the family now, it looks like she has both threats from the past (Beatrice) and threats from the present as well (her Aunt, I believe).

[shinta|hikari]

I thought I was the only one who caught the Hanyuu-maru reference. Was it translated in the version you watched?

[Buffalobiian]

I thought I was the only one who caught the Hanyuu-maru reference. Was it translated in the version you watched?

gg typesetted it on the back of the boat, yes. I still don't get the reference despite that though.

So we finally got to see where Maria went skitz. She was always a bit delusional, but in the child-like manner we all once were, in contrast to her "evil face" bipolar mode from the island. I honestly can't remember if Maria had an alibi for all the Episode I murders, but she was by herself when she sang into the phone and everyone's dead.

Rosa...Rosa....Rosa.... You can't blame anyone for wanting you dead.

[Xrlderek]

Umineko 22 (http://tracker.minglong.org/torrents/%5Bgg%5D_Umineko_no_Naku_Koro_ni_-_22_%5B70FC7409%5D.mkv.torrent)

[MasterOfMoogles]

Interesting episode, as Kinzo finally did something. As Battler suggests though, it seems all of these scenes are fantasy.
Rudolf, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rosa, Genji, Natsuhi, all dead. An interesting mix this time. The obvious finger points at Krauss being the murderer, as all of the siblings are dead. If we assume that Kinzo is also dead, as Battler suggests, then Krauss becomes even more suspicious because of his scenes with Kinzo.

It's interesting this time that our reliable narrator is experiencing things by telephone. And since we get no red text, who knows if all of those people are even dead.

[Ryllharu]

The idea that the real Kinzo's was dead opened up the possibility that someone outside of the family was really the one murdering everyone. Battler doesn't want to accept that possibility, and won't allow it.

Even as awful as most of the adults are, most wouldn't really want to go around killing their siblings and nephews and nieces. Even Eva's was more of a split personality thing. She resisted the influences for a long time. She was struggling with it. Even if in the end she really was the one doing it in that scenario, she felt at least a little guilty about it. Her son did end up getting killed, and Ange's flashback (within her flashforward) seemed to indicate that Eva was having a very tough time.

It seems like the plan will be to pit the cousins against each other, with Maria already out for blood. Quite the shift from them usually trusting each other implicitly. Jessica can speak with her father, and Kyrie is the only other living parent in there. He may be forced by "Kinzo" to give her evil encouragement.


As for Maria, I won't say that Rosa didn't deserve any of that, she is certainly one of the most selfish and terrible mothers out there, but I didn't really find myself all that surprised that Maria-Beatrice turned out to be exactly like Rosa. She was just as unsatisfied, just as sadistic, just as self serving, and just as verbally cruel.

It's been a long and strange ride with those two over the series. First I hated Maria, and was hoping that Rosa would smack her. Then she actually did...and didn't stop. Right as Battler and the rest of Maria's cousins watched. What Rosa did to her made us feel very uncomfortable, because while Maria deserved it, Rosa took it too far. Then they redeemed Rosa a bit, by making her care for Maria, determined to save and protect her above all else. We even saw her finally being a good mother, giving Maria gifts, treating her nicely, thinking the better of smacking Maria around for no reason. Then we finally saw the "truth." Rosa makes Maria take care of herself, and then punishes her anyway if Maria interferes with Rosa's personal affairs, which always take precedence. Rosa is constantly embarrassed by Maria for no good reason. So when Maria finally gets the ability to fight back, she too takes it way too far.

[Buffalobiian]

As for Maria, I won't say that Rosa didn't deserve any of that, she is certainly one of the most selfish and terrible mothers out there, but I didn't really find myself all that surprised that Maria-Beatrice turned out to be exactly like Rosa. She was just as unsatisfied, just as sadistic, just as self serving, and just as verbally cruel.

It's been a long and strange ride with those two over the series. First I hated Maria, and was hoping that Rosa would smack her. Then she actually did...and didn't stop. Right as Battler and the rest of Maria's cousins watched. What Rosa did to her made us feel very uncomfortable, because while Maria deserved it, Rosa took it too far. Then they redeemed Rosa a bit, by making her care for Maria, determined to save and protect her above all else. We even saw her finally being a good mother, giving Maria gifts, treating her nicely, thinking the better of smacking Maria around for no reason. Then we finally saw the "truth." Rosa makes Maria take care of herself, and then punishes her anyway if Maria interferes with Rosa's personal affairs, which always take precedence. Rosa is constantly embarrassed by Maria for no good reason. So when Maria finally gets the ability to fight back, she too takes it way too far.

Took the words right out of my mouth Ryll. My support always see-saws between the two to the point where I sympathise with both, but can't say either is right anymore.

[MasterOfMoogles]

So, I don't think Rosa is as bad as she is made out to be in this episode. It is made pretty clear that all of what happened with the torture was a dream Maria was having. I bet Rosa actually does love her child and wouldn't say all of that, but "I wish you were never born!" is what Maria fears, because Rosa goes about it the wrong way.

Not trying to make light of how Rosa treats her child, but I think it goes both ways. Breaking her imaginary friend was pretty harsh.

The further along we go, the more I think that Maria is key to many of the murders. She has been left alive for 2 out of the 3 games, and game 3 seemed to be "the one that went wrong". Game 3 was the only one where Rudolf survived the first twilight. The only one where the gold was definitely found, and the only one where we know for sure that Eva was killing people. Game 3's first twilight was also EXTREMELY different from all of the other first twilights. It looks like game 1, 2, and now 4's first twilights were all done in such a way as to scare people with brutal murders, while game 3's is done in a planned out thoughtful way.

[Nadouku]

Well, it seems Kinzo has a better role in this part instead of being toasted. I actually don't care about what Maria does to Rosa since it was a pretty satisfying event to watch.

[Xrlderek]

Umineko 23 gg (http://www.nyaatorrents.org/?page=download&tid=101773)

[Ryllharu]

How did I not realize last episode that Gaap's dress was completely split on that one side?!
---------------------------------------------

What did the handwriting match prove to Ange? That Maria wrote all those letters, that the entire journal could be faked, or something else. Also, was it just me, or did she see Sakutarou in that bag at the boatman's place? If so, does that mean...what does that mean? Maria has been alive all this time, tricking both Eva and Ange for 12 long years? Or that all the hopes that Ange based her life on reading Maria's journal have been a lie? Too many questions!

Jessica's stand didn't really do anything for me, but George was badass. Quite a contrary to the usual devoted but helpless loser we're used to. It might have been a bit hard to swallow that he's had such proficient martial arts training and has not used it in any of the prior iterations, but that surprisingly didn't really detract from his badass resolve. Tricking Gaap into thinking they had created another monster, only to immediately betray them, well played. His words about how monarch's display their strength convinced me completely. I can see how his sudden burst of confidence and resolve could be viewed as magic to Gaap and her kind. His words earlier about how the whole world becomes his enemy as Shannon's husband struck a chord too, well spoken.

The one good thing Jessica caught was that Ronove is far more closely related to Genji Ronoue than we might have believed earlier. It puts a very different spin on his death here, as well as the showdown the pair had in a prior iteration. There is certainly now room for Ronove to be Genji, at least in a manner of speaking. They are both Genji. Here, "Genji" was killed, leaving only "Ronove", a highly loyal servant to Goldsmith (and Beatrice's forces) and no one else. "Genji" and he have fought before the same way that Eva was struggling against Eva-Beatrice, her own monster within. While "Genji" cares deeply for the entire family, "Ronove" is loyal only to the murderer. When one "dies," Genji remains alive, but no longer conflicted. That would leave plenty of opportunities for that Sealed Room mysteries to be resolved, as well as eliminating a need for the non-existent 6th (or 7th?) Master Key. So while it may be true that "Genji" is not betraying anyone, "Ronove" certainly may be.

I'm really looking forward to Battler's Question and response. He doesn't have any easily exploited romantic or familial love here. He didn't even mention Ange until the last arc. Way to forget about your own incredibly adorable sister. I suppose they might press him on whether or not he loved Kyrie as a mother since she isn't his by blood. The answer would be obvious then, she taught him his favorite catchphrase about chessboards after all.

If anything disappointed me, it would be that this arc seems to have forgotten about the game between Battler and Beatrice. He's got the blue truth now, and he hasn't even questioned a single one of these recent events.


tl;dr
Maria not quite dead(?) / Ange's hopes dashed?
George = Badass.
Genji = Ronove?
Battler, where have you been lately?

[Xrlderek]

Great episode in my opinion. Fight scenes were good too. I also believe it was Sakutarou in the bag. I think it was alluded to earlier in the series that Eva had taught George martial arts, so it wasn't that out of the blue for me, but that scene might have been omitted in the anime, I can't remember for sure. The scene was definitely awesome.

I think this round will be strange to analyze. I love how the murders were set up carefully the first rounds, and now they just killed the first 6 almost immediately.. I don't think the first day is even over yet(not completely sure). Looking forward to Battler turning the chessboard over!

[Buffalobiian]

It certainly was a badass episode. Jessica's scenes felt weak compared to George's, mainly because her sudden turn-around felt a bit forced and less powerful than George's straight-up determination. She never spoke much of her father before, or her ambition to take over as the Head, so love -> piecing fists was a bit of a stretch for me.

I'd love to see how Maria and Battler fair in their own rounds. If Eva taught George martial arts, it implies Eva knew martial arts in the first place, giving her much more killing power than we've been lead to believe. All those stakes being driven into the skull may bot be so physically impossible after all.

I'm a bit confused as to what purpose these repeated murders serve. I'm quite capable of just "going with the flow" when I'm watching the show. When I think about it afterwards however, it becomes confusing for me to conclude exactly which iteration are they trying to solve. Common sense tells me it's the first one.

That bag certainly contained something yellow, in pieces, with a tad of orange which points to none other than Sakutaro.

I was taking Ronove = Genji's brother quite literally for some reason, but after reading Ryll's theory, I'm completely sold. It's particularly convincing that Ronove called Genji his "vessel".