One Piece Episode 404

[Marik]

ACSF

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[Carnage]

Damn you're fast.

[Death13a]

AWESOME!!!!!!! :eek:

it felt like i was watching 1 hour long movie
and it will get only get more epic from here.

[Archangel]

No torrent? Direct download sucks


Damn you're fast.

You new here?

[Marik]

HD - MegaUpload (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=OPWF6IRC)


No torrent? Direct download sucks
Not yet.

[Assertn]

Awesome ep. I'm glad it covered as much as it did...
The previews were also quite dramatic.

[DarthEnderX]

So freaking badass. Rayleigh can hit Logia users. The real Kuma is here. And Zoro is outta there!

[Penner]

Sooooooooooooooooo Fuuuuuuuuckin Goooooooood!!

[Kraco]

The real Kuma is here. And Zoro is outta there!

Yes, where indeed did Zoro go? That's the biggest question. We don't actually know where Kuma has been sending people, or if it's even one place. Maybe it's a specific place (a prison, perhaps), maybe not. He's kind of a hard to figure out fellow.

Though Zoro might as well just be a few hundred meters away.

[Archangel]

Yes, where indeed did Zoro go? That's the biggest question. We don't actually know where Kuma has been sending people, or if it's even one place. Maybe it's a specific place (a prison, perhaps), maybe not. He's kind of a hard to figure out fellow.

Though Zoro might as well just be a few hundred meters away.

And just how does the ability to repel everything grant instant teleportation? ( Without killing the subject in the process )

I also wonder how his "If you went on vacation where would you like to go?" question fits in all this.

[DarthEnderX]

Yeah, that line always led me to believe that he could send people wherever he wanted to.

So maybe he just sent Zoro somewhere else on the Archapelego. Or maybe he sent him straight to marine prison.

I'm sure wherever he got sent though is probably a step up from getting kicked by Kizaru though.

[Oniken]

"If you went on vacation where would you like to go?"

Hmm I can't check 'cause I deleted the episode but wasn't there a tropical island in the preview for next week or something? Might of just been Shabaody though.

[Death13a]

Kuma might as well send him all the way to east blue, middle of ocean, uninhabitable island. Spin the globe and found out.

[chambers]

apart from his quirky ability hes a bit of enigma is kuma, and im not so sure he will end up as a bad guy in the end.

1st we have the way he has twice now spared somone in the strawhat crew, first off he allows the crew to go free for unknown reasons really and second he stops the px1 from killing zoro, maybe he landed the finishing blow himself but his catchline leads me to believe not.

2nd we have his reaction to the strawhats, hes calm, collective, and relativley none physical, he doesnt flip out or even seem to detest the strawhats in general.

it will be interesting when we find out his backstory but i have a feeling he will end up being a good guy.

[DarthEnderX]

Well he's clearly not a bad guy. Just like I Smoker and Ao Kiji are not bad guys. They're trying to protect the world from evil pirates, and I don't think any of them think the Strawhats are actually evil. But they have their orders, so when they get told to take out the Strawhats, they have to do it.

[chambers]

if your right tho darth i wonder how one piece will end up going.. i mean if the admirals (kizaru seems pretty similar to kiji in the little we have seen of him) desert the marines and some of the sichibukai (we know for a fact blackbeard isnt really for the government since the day kuma said about the balance of power tipping too far, and we think kuma isnt a badguy per se, also moria showed ambitions to still become the pirate king...) will also go, then who will the marines be left with? an army of px-X's? perhaps thats the reason for vegapunks weapons, to make the marines more self reliant i mean look how much stronger spandam got because of his sword...

[Splash!]

Kizaru attitude doesn't seem to be anything like Aokiji. Despite his laid back attitude, he seems to be cold hearted and ruthless with an indiscriminate attitude towards pirates being evil.

[RyougaZell]

Wow... simply wow... this episode was fantastic.

Everything just went to hell for the Straw Hats.

Rayleigh is badass.

[Archangel]

it will be interesting when we find out his backstory but i have a feeling he will end up being a good guy.

Wasn't his nickname Kuma the terrible or something? I remember something about him being known by his ruthlessness back in his pirate days

Also, the animation in this episode was superb

[Assertn]

Wasn't his nickname Kuma the terrible or something? I remember something about him being known by his ruthlessness back in his pirate days

Also, the animation in this episode was superb
Kuma the tyrant

[Archangel]

Kizaru attitude doesn't seem to be anything like Aokiji. Despite his laid back attitude, he seems to be cold hearted and ruthless with an indiscriminate attitude towards pirates being evil.

Actually, i think his sense of justice is very much like Aokiji's

Both seem to be quite ruthless, but not necessarily evil as they were just following orders.

[DarthEnderX]

I'm with Splash. Kizaru seems laid back like Ao Kiji, but completely cold blooded as well, which Ao Kiji isn't.

[Archangel]

I'm with Splash. Kizaru seems laid back like Ao Kiji, but completely cold blooded as well, which Ao Kiji isn't.
He froze one of his best friends in a heartbeat O_o

Isn't that ruthless and cruel too?

[Splash!]

Kizaru has not shown the slightest indication of caring for the safety of the people on the archipelago, blowing things up left and right. Aokiji, on the other hand, helped a group of stranded travellers across the sea.

Aokiji was reluctant to needlessly capture a wanted criminal like Luffy because he had no direct orders. Kizaru, however, wouldn't mind rounding up all the bountyheads around him even though the only one he is obligated to capture is Luffy.


Now that I think about it, the animal in their names may be very indicative of the admiral's temperament.
Aokiji - pheasant: Calm and does not resort to violence needlessly
Kizaru - monkey: laid back and mischevious, but quick to anger and get violent
Akainu - dog: my guess is that he probably the most loyal to the cause of the marines, and is completely ruthless to all those denounced by the WG from an innocent child to a dangerous criminal (sort of like a guard dog)

[Assertn]

Aokiji has his own sense of justice. Compassion is irrelevant to him. He bases his decisions on what he thinks is right and wrong.

Kizaru is indeed mischievous, doesn't seem to care too much about the damage he causes.

Akainu we kind of know from Robin's flashback. He ordered the ship full of civilians to be blown up. Clearly, he's the most thorough and ruthless of the three.

[Splash!]

I forgot about Aokiji's laziness, which a pheasant would symbolize well, being a fat, slow and clumsy bird. Seems like Oda put quite a bit of thought into his characters.

[Kraco]

I don't think Shichibukai take orders from anyone. They are still pirates, only government sanctioned ones to hunt down other pirates (that would make them privateers). Rather than orders it should be more like specific contracts. If they actually took orders, it would indicate they are a solid part of the World government hierarchy, and I deem that would make their role in relation to the artual navy problematic. So, a certain degree of ambiguity is to be expected from them, Kuma included.

Admirals of course are a different matter, and no doubt they already needed to prove their obedience to the ideology and (ruthless) loyalty before they even were made admirals. I doubt you become an admiral simply by eating a powerful fruit and waltzing in. While there could be individual differences there, it would be surprising if they all weren't 100% supportive of the World government's absolute rule.

[Raven]

I can't recall the Straw Hats ever having their asses handed to them quite like this before. This has been a beating of a new level.

[Penner]

Yeah just goes to show that the Strawhats is nowhere near the level of the more famous pirates like Roger, and probably Whitebeard & Shanks, or the Navy Admirals, because they said Rayleigh was like what, like 100times stronger than Luffy, and from the looks of it Admiral Kizaru can fight somewhat evenly with him.

Though i don't think Kizaru or Rayleigh is going 100% yet and Rayleigh could probably defeat Kizaru, or maybe hes lost some strength from his old age, who knows.. but Kizaru didnt seem to be the least bit afraid or concerned about him, just that he was 'in his way'.

Kizaru could probably take out the entire Strawhat crew very fast if he really wanted to even if they were all at full strength, only thing keeping them alive right now is Rayleigh ;P

[chambers]

tbh its almost alarming how strong the admirals are. With aokiji i always kinda thought that he wasnt that strong but his ability allowed him to kinda dominate anything that got near him... kizaru seems like a beast in terms of power however. Going from beating crocodile and enel to beating rob lucci was a huge step up imho, and these admirals seem to be living in a world of there own almost, i would hate to see how powerful the 4 emps are if they can stand up to the might of 3 combined admirals.... they must be complete monsters. Really hard to see how the strawhat crew can close the gap, in the case of luffy zoro and sanji its clear that they can simply become stronger and perhaps learn a new technique or 2, but the likes of franky ussop and nami..... will these guys be relegated in a similar fashion DBZ characters were?

[DarthEnderX]

I haven't seen anything from Aokiji or Kizaru yet that leads me to believe that they're any more powerful than Enel. In fact, Kizaru and Enel's powers are pretty much identical. Just Luffy isn't gonna be immune to Kizaru.

I'm sure they are more powerful for some reason, but so far, all their badassness seems to stem from them being Logia.

[Archangel]

I haven't seen anything from Aokiji or Kizaru yet that leads me to believe that they're any more powerful than Enel. In fact, Kizaru and Enel's powers are pretty much identical. Just Luffy isn't gonna be immune to Kizaru.

I'm sure they are more powerful for some reason, but so far, all their badassness seems to stem from them being Logia.

Mantra + Logia dude

Luffy was his natural enemy and even he had a tough time beating him, so i'd nay that enel is either as or even more powerful than the admirals

I've mentioned this before, but Oda stated that if he were to give Enel a bounty it would have been something of about 500.000.000 belli

[chambers]

well you have to take into account the actual power they posess as compared with the physical threat they pose....

from what we have seen so far kizaru should be the strongest of all physically speaking since he can presumably move at the speed of light... compare that to enel whos power is ligtening and specifically electricity... for a world who is coming into a modern era of science and such a man who effectivley can control ALL of this is a ery powerful foe indeed.... i have said it before its like magneto... physically hes weak but his power is to abuse the powers of man, same as enels was. IMHO thats why enel would have had such a high bounty... aokiji and kizaru would have wiped the floor with him and perhaps even someone like crocodile and moria would have also.

[Assertn]

I'm pretty sure any fight between Enel and another (non-dark) logia user would've ended in stalemate, just as Smoker and Ace's fight did.

[DarthEnderX]

On one hand yes, but I think in the case of Enel and Kizaru, instantaneous movement counts for a lot as well.

[chambers]

well as much as i dont like to talk about fights that will more than likely never happen BUT, we also have to remeber a great deal of enels strengths came from his mantra letting him predict the movements of others.... can this be done with a guy who moves at such a high speed? Well no, because luffy at some points as already beating his mantra in terms of speed, add to the fact that im pretty sure all the admirals will be as experienced as silvers at fighting logia users and will be able to hit them just like silvers did......... there is a high chance enel has never encountered anyone as strong as himself.

[Kraco]

im pretty sure all the admirals will be as experienced as silvers at fighting logia users and will be able to hit them just like silvers did.........

Where on Earth did this come from? Nothing I saw during these eps suggested anything like that. If Kizaru wasn't overly amazed Silvers could fight him, it's more likely due to the fact Silvers in a rather legendary character, and so it's not out of the question to expect great many things from him. That, however, is a long stretch from saying Kizaru, who looks like a typical logia user only relying on his fruit powers, would know any fancy tricks to fight other logia users.

The speed differences here play limited role for the simple reason that those people's brains still seem to operate at normal human speed, not at the speed of light or electricity (the human brain relies as much on chemical substances as electricity as well, making Enel no exception). So, it doesn't matter if you can move at the speed of light once you have decided to do it if making that decision takes just as long as for anybody else.

[Assertn]

Speed of light and mantra are still irrelevant in such a fight. One of them could attack the other one in their sleep and nothing would happen. Lightning is not vulnerable to light, and light is not vulnerable to lightning.

Edit: Lol, I can't really counter-argue a point made via rep, especially over manga content, since I can neither post here nor in PM. However, a fight between two paramecia types is a little more up in the air than two logia types. Plus, don't forget that *spoiler stuff etc etc*

Basic rule of thumb: With logia, it's considered immune unless proven otherwise. With paramecia, it's considered vulnerable unless proven otherwise.

[The Chancellor]

Edit: Lol, I can't really counter-argue a point made via rep, especially over manga content, since I can neither post here nor in PM. However, a fight between two paramecia types is a little more up in the air than two logia types. Plus, don't forget that *spoiler stuff etc etc*

Basic rule of thumb: With logia, it's considered immune unless proven otherwise. With paramecia, it's considered vulnerable unless proven otherwise. Wouldn't that be true with zoan's as well then? I'm sure a gazelle fruit would be no match for Lucci unless he was the fastest zoan alive.

[Assertn]

Wouldn't that be true with zoan's as well then? I'm sure a gazelle fruit would be no match for Lucci unless he was the fastest zoan alive.

Not necessarily. If some regular joe ate a lion fruit, I'm sure Kaku could still kick his ass.

[The Chancellor]

Not necessarily. If some regular joe ate a lion fruit, I'm sure Kaku could still kick his ass. Then you're saying that the martial arts style they knew was the difference? Yeah I could see that. Wouldn't that mean that if a little girl found Aokijis or Crocodiles fruit floating in on a dock somewhere and took a bite, then she could hypothetically go to the marines and demand to be an admiral? Actually, I've wondered that for a while. I know this forum likes to talk about fruits and stuff, but what would happen if that did in fact happen? I mean if a little girl or an average joe did eat a logia fruit, and found out that they were virtually unstoppable, would they go to the marines and try and become an admiral? Would they have the presence and reputation to start a powerful pirate crew from that fruit alone?

What do you think would happen?

[Assertn]

Hah well, I'm sure earning respect is one requirement to get people to follow you. With the marines, you need to prove your loyalty and capacity to get the job done. In Robin's flashbacks, Aoukiji had his ice powers even back when he was still just a vice admiral, so he had to climb the ranks just like anyone else it seems. Same with Smoker, who is a logia type but just recently got promoted from captain to commander (were those the titles?).

Granted, I'm sure its easier to climb ranks if you're a logia.

[chambers]

come on, you have to look at this logically and say that the world government is the dominant power in one piece at this stage. The two main arms of power for the world government are the royal sichibukai and the marines. Of the marines we can already assume the power of the marines far outstrips that of the sichibukai, evidence to support this is the fact that luffy has beaten already 2 sichibukai, and has been utterly dominated by 2 admirals.

So its safe to assume that in terms of raw power the marines have the edge due to a) sheer numbers and b) stronger "top draw" characters.

Compare the WG to the pirates, right now it seems that the super novas are occupying a similar role to that of the sichibukai, they are far far weaker than the 4E of the grand line and yet are still needed for some reason (evidence of this is both silvers and shanks saving luffy possibly both at a great cost to themselves). Although at this point in time there could well be much much more powerful sichibukai that we havent seen, and kuma has so far been dominant both times we have seen him, its not to the extent that both admirals have been shown to be.

Realistically both sides must be at a stalemate due to the fact that both sides have exsisted for a long time and neither has made much advancement (at least not in the timeline of the anime since rogers execution).

Compare the positions of ACE and smoker, both are relativley low level and can not really be compared to either the emporers or the admirals. In terms of power they are more than likley both on a similar level to the novas/sichibukai. Taking the fight they had as an example is a poor one to choose because neither has the experince to measure up to somone like silvers or kizaru.

We have seen silvers can stop a loggia user without the aid of a fruit, therefore its safe to assume that at some level of experince or technique it will also be possible for others to do the same, and we can assume that both the 4E and the admirals also know of this. Evidence to support this would be that first of all kizaru was not shocked that somone could stop him, he also commented somthinglike "its the first time in a long time somone has cut him" when silvers stopped him from teleporting. Add to the fact that loggia fruits seem to be frighteningly common second only to zoan types it should be assumed that in order for the government to hold power they must be able to stop a loggia user. Also the other 2 4E's have yet to be revealed and they could both be loggia users for all we know.

If a person of rivaling power to whitebeard possesed a loggia fruit ability and the government could not counter such abilitys like silvers can then there would be no stalemate.

If you take all these points into consideration it is clear IMHO that loggia type fruits must be counterable and even if its only on the highest level, in order to survive against the marines who have already shown us 2 of the 3 admirals and both were loggia users, ALL the 4E MUST be able to counter loggia fruit abilities..... it stands to reason that at least one of the 4E will be a loggia user or have them in there crew and as stated above if the marines ant counter this that emporer will become more dominant than the others and eventually the WG.


And to the point about any random guy eating a fruit, i think we have a few pretty good references of that already in the anime, the 1st would be buggy who despite having an amazing power is one of, if not the weakest captain we have seen yet (but strictley speaking hes a joke character right now...so it mightnot be a valid point). We have also seen that fruits dont instantly catapult somone to superhuman strength and speed as shown by luffys quick and easy defeat of bellamy, but on the other hand they do provide amazing boosts which you can see by looking at the foxy pirate crew. I think in all the power of a person comes from the person they were before they took a fruit, kaku kicked ass before he became a giraffe man so the fruit only multiplied his powers. Luffy comes from a family of incredibly strong, ambitions and influential people and as such was always likley to be strong.

[Assertn]

come on, you have to look at this logically and say that the world government is the dominant power in one piece at this stage. The two main arms of power for the world government are the royal sichibukai and the marines. Of the marines we can already assume the power of the marines far outstrips that of the sichibukai, evidence to support this is the fact that luffy has beaten already 2 sichibukai, and has been utterly dominated by 2 admirals.

The strawhats have been utterly dominated by two shichibukai as well... remember Mihawk and Kuma? Plus the two shichibukai that Luffy defeated were long, painful battles that would have easily tilted the other way had Luffy not gained access to their weak points (Luffy almost died twice to Crocodile, and the losers of the forest gave Luffy his nightmare mode against Oz).

[poopdeville]

If the WG could kill the Shichibukai off, it would. It can't. That's why the WG signed treaties with them.

If the WG could kill the Yonkyou off, it would. It can't, realistically. Even if they kill one, they will be too weakened to defend themselves from attack from the Shichibukai and the other Yonkyou.

[Carnage]

I think the WG could kill off some of the Shichibukai, but they figure instead of wasting resources they might as well use them and keep 30% of their profits.

[poopdeville]

That's fair enough, and I agree. I'm sure they could have taken some of the weaker members. But a couple of the Shichibukai are at least as strong as the Yonkyou, like Mihawk (for sure) and possibly Kuma and Blackbeard.

But the point is: the WG played a game of divide and conquer with the pirates, in order to get some strong fighters on their side. Even if it is only a temporary alliance.

[The Chancellor]

If the WG could kill the Shichibukai off, it would. It can't. That's why the WG signed treaties with them.

If the WG could kill the Yonkyou off, it would. It can't, realistically. Even if they kill one, they will be too weakened to defend themselves from attack from the Shichibukai and the other Yonkyou. I'll agree with the first statement, but no in way in hell on the second one. Even the first statement is a stretch. But you honestly think that the admirals and some rinky dink doriki level 10 strength marines with some marine ships can take down some of the Yonkou? I'm sure even the weakest mop boys on the Yonkous crews have haki's stronger than Luffy's alone. And no one has brought this up in all of the Yonkou talks you guys have had, but, does anyone realize that they could each be housing a logia user on their crews? It was already proven with Ace on WB's crew.

I do think though that the admirals (just the admirals with no help at all) can take down some of the shichibukai. By some I mean about 3.

Moria
Hancock
and Mihawk

If you need those explained then I'll gladly explain them.

[poopdeville]

Yes, that is what I wrote. I think if an Admiral fought someone with the determination of a Yonkyou, he might win, and end up very hurt. Hurt enough that any reasonably strong super-pirate (Shichibukai or Yonkyou level) could take him out. And they would. Look at all the Shichibukai scheming going on for this war, which has been planned by the government.

By making the Shichibukai fight, they are making sure they are too busy/hurt to try anything that would take the WG's power. In fact, since most of the Shichibukai want to become PK, it makes sense for them to oppose Whitebeard.

I'm also sure that with an Admiral dead, the Shichibukai would instantly betray the government and dissolve the treaty. So instead of having to fight 4 super-pirates in the New World, they would have 11.

[The Chancellor]

Yes, that is what I wrote. I think if an Admiral fought someone with the determination of a Yonkyou, he might win, and end up very hurt. Hurt enough that any reasonably strong super-pirate (Shichibukai or Yonkyou level) could take him out. And they would.


IF an admiral can kill WB. That would pretty epic. For an admiral to plow through all of the 1600 ships, captains, and then get himself to the head honcho, yeah he might be able to but it'd be a challenge for him for sure. And yeah by the time he killed WB, I agree he would be pretty tired and beat from a long day of taking down a Yonkou. But I don't think all of them would be able to. Granted we're getting onto a different topic now, but personally I don't think Aokiji would be able to take down a Yonkou. He isn't fast enough to dodge cannonballs and attack at the same time. Let get through an armada like WB's. I think Kizaru would be the WG's real only hope of taking down WB or a Yonkou.

Also, I'm confused about something. What did you mean when you said that a shichibukai would gain enough power and credit to be the next Yonkou or Yonkou equivalent? I get the credit part. For example once Kizaru took down WB himself, how would Hancock or even Mihawk for that matter gain power? Wouldn't it be open for anyone to take that spot, not just him? My question isn't the credibility it's the power. How would he gain power from a Yonkou being eliminated? He wouldn't be gaining anything, either in crew or in self power-up.

[poopdeville]

Also, I'm confused about something. What did you mean when you said that a shichibukai would gain enough power and credit to be the next Yonkou or Yonkou equivalent? I get the credit part. For example once Kizaru took down WB himself, how would Hancock or even Mihawk for that matter gain power? Wouldn't it be open for anyone to take that spot, not just him? My question isn't the credibility it's the power. How would he gain power from a Yonkou being eliminated? He wouldn't be gaining anything, either in crew or in self power-up.

Sorry for the late reply. I meant that Blackbeard would gain power in "relative terms", not that Blackbeard would gain a new super power or something like that. Basically, he would have one less extremely strong guy to fight on his way to his goal. That makes his position of power stronger, relatively speaking. Basically, this is because he can devote the resources he would have needed for a fight against Whitebeard against other people, like the WG and the remaining Yonkyou.

Of course, if Whitebeard died, the WG would gain the same advantage. But if an Admiral died too (and a Shichibukai left!), they would end up way worse off. They would lose two great fighters, whereas "the pirates" -- the other side of the balance of power -- only lost one. They would definitely (I think) reconsider the idea of taking on any of the Yonkyou until they found a replacement for their dead Admiral. I doubt many of the Shichibukai would remain loyal to the WG. So the WG might end up losing a lot of great fighters.

Every pirate would gain from this, but the newest Yonkyou would gain the most, I think.

[The Chancellor]

Of course, if Whitebeard died, the WG would gain the same advantage. But if an Admiral died too (and a Shichibukai left!), they would end up way worse off. They would lose two great fighters, whereas "the pirates" -- the other side of the balance of power -- only lost one. I thought that's what you meant. I think if an admiral died (more than a shichibukai leaving in my opinion) than the WG would really be royally screwed. I mean I know it's been beaten into the ground, but the main thing to consider here is that the admirals are all logia users who by themselves could most likely (as we've discussed) could take down a yonkou. Not that easily, but he could. These are all massively tall guys, with no fear and strong fighting abilities backed by logia fruits. Oda has even proven that the only person able to take one down is someone of Raylieghs age and experience.

[chambers]

dude come on.... your throwing out names there like theres no tomorrow be carfull what you say some people dont read the manga and still dont want anything spoiled!

Also we dont know that all three admirals are logia users since we havent seen the final third one and your assuming there isnt more people like lucci about who are secret AND your ignoreing the fact that sen goku is more than likley going to be as powerfull as god himself...

If the admirals are the strongest force the marines have to offer, yet rob lucci was so insanley strong.... and sentoumaru is only vegapunks bodyguard and head of the science division so there will more than likley be other marines of obscene power we havent seen yet...

[The Chancellor]

Also we don't know that all three admirals are logia users since we haven't seen the final third one and your assuming there isn't more people like lucci about who are secret AND your ignoring the fact that sen goku is more than likely going to be as powerful as god himself...
Sorry about that. Why not make it three for three and make everyone happy? And yeah he probably is insanely strong. Having him just be able to command a bunch of ships and people is not Odas style anyway. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if he had an insane haki level, or a good devils fruit.