Epic genitalia wars

[Sapphire]

^ haha

[18:43] <Yukimura> KitKat this all started when sapphi wanted to know what it is about loli that turns on lolicons
[18:44] <Yukimura> after some(a lot of) word wrestling we established that she just wanted to know what actual things they tended to be attracted to/get off on about the lolis
[18:44] <Yukimura> then she started talking about 'flavors' of attraction
[18:44] <Yukimura> i.e how she might feel stimulated by reading a romance novel differently than reading a smutty manga
[18:45] <Yukimura> to which I replied that I didn't feel that attraction worked that way for me
[18:45] <Yukimura> and TT concured
[18:45] <Yukimura> we both put forward that regardless of the material we experiance the same 'sort' of feelings when we were aroused by something with the variation being in the intensity of the feelings
[18:46] <Yukimura> at this point things start getting hectic
[18:47] <Yukimura> sapphi came up with the generalization that most women's attraction/satisfaction is derived from 'thought's/emotions' while most mens was derived from [images of] 'actions/behaviors'
[18:48] <Yukimura> then DS put forward that this generalization didn't seem to account for women who behave in a manner suggesting they are attracted to actions/behaviors
[18:48] <Yukimura> and there was much word wrestling and arguing back and forth
[18:49] <Yukimura> which was ultimately dropped as it wasn't going anywhere
[18:49] <Saphyrie> images more for men too
[18:49] <Yukimura> or right images of actions/behaviors
[18:49] <Saphyrie> and that a distinctive type of media made for a distinctive experiences
[18:50] <Yukimura> who don't start that distinc crap yet
[18:50] <Saphyrie> LOL
[18:50] <Yukimura> tat is like super advnanced confusing stuff
[18:50] <Yukimura> that is hard to articulate clearly
[18:50] <KitKat> Hmmm....well, I would probably say that women are more attracted to attributes/qualities...so a certain behaviour might make a man more attractive because it demonstrates a certain quality he has
[18:51] <Yukimura> let me try and get into the 'distinction' think real quick kitkat
[18:51] <Yukimura> sapphi has/had this theory that different media invoke different attractive responses
[18:52] <Yukimura> as an example lesbians vs tentacles or something
[18:52] <Saphyrie> lol
[18:52] <Yukimura> which didn't seem to apply to men as much, but sapphi believes applies to woman
[18:53] <Yukimura> and her theory on lolicon individuals is that the 'experiance' of indulging in their attraction to loli would be different than it would be for indulgin in their attraction for non-loli
[18:53] <Yukimura> in the case of those attracted to both
[18:53] <Yukimura> and when i say indulging in their attraction i really mean pandering ot it, not necessarily with real acts but with some sort of tittilating media
[18:54] <Yukimura> and i think that about sums up the important parts
[18:55] <Saphyrie> *nods*
[18:57] <KitKat> Hmm....I think I would probably agree with Sapphi....even with different kinds of guys for instance, the attraction to a geeky smart guy is different from the attraction to a sporty guy
[18:57] <Yukimura> well there you have it sappi
[18:57] <Yukimura> two guys who say one thing two girls who say another and one guy who is an outlier
[18:58] <Yukimura> your theory is now foolproof
[18:58] <KitKat> Is DS the outlier?
[18:58] <Yukimura> yes
[18:58] <Saphyrie> <3
[18:58] <Yukimura> ds's point was that all attraction is the same across genders
[18:58] <Yukimura> and that the apparent differences were do to external influences
[18:59] <Yukimura> (or something)
[19:00] <Yukimura> I think he wasn't really putting forth 'what' might make the behaviors different, only that fundamentally men and women experianced things in the same way but had different structures built on top
[19:00] <Yukimura> and I do find it interesting in how i totally don't see it your way kitkat
[19:01] <Yukimura> the feeling I get when i'm attracted to a girl b/c of her intellectual stimulation feels like what I feel when I am droooling over a finly shaped bag of meat
[19:02] <Yukimura> it would be great to do a formal study to try and see how deeply this goes
[19:03] <Yukimura> and how universally it may or may not apply
[19:04] <KitKat> lol, the academic pursuits of gotwoot
[19:07] <Yukimura> more like the acedemic pursiuts of Yuki with Sapphi along doing pseudo-scientific analysis

[Buffalobiian]

Lol, IRC's the bomb when people actually talk :p

[Sapphire]

If there are any lolicons around, please provide your input. :p

[Buffalobiian]

@Sapph's request:

<Saphyrie> also yuki, i made a post requesting for a lolicon's input on the topic
<Saphyrie> do you have any input, buff?
* Saphyrie slaps Buffalobiian around a bit with a large trout
<Buffalobiian> I'm not a lollicon in general, no
<Buffalobiian> not to say I'm not/can't be attracted to them
<Yukimura> you're skirting the line to FBI territory SApphi
<Buffalobiian> they just don't get any special privileges, or a head start/edge
<Buffalobiian> over other competitors for my heart :)
<Buffalobiian> or my....other places.....
<Saphyrie> LOL
* Buffalobiian will hide in outback Australia if Sapph turns out to be an FBI
<Saphyrie> *write it in teh forum to excite discussion*
<DS> ok this printer is badass

(I should make the move from Chatzilla to mIRC sometime...)

[Nadouku]

Sounds like a plan to gather all the lolicons together. :p

[Sapphire]

Do you two agree with what was said at 18:47? (For you, personally)

[IFHTT]

Sounds like a plan to gather all the lolicons together. :p

Yeah... I fear we may have an influx of pedos in the channel soon at the request of Sapphire, especially when they see the age she has set on the forums ... :/

[Buffalobiian]

Do you two agree with what was said at 18:47? (For you, personally)


I can't answer, since I won't be able to justify it.

[Sapphire]

You don't have to justify how you feel. :O

[Buffalobiian]

I don't feel that way. Personally, I can derive satisfaction from both thoughts and actions equally. It's not exclusive nor tilted towards one side in any way. I can't say if this is for "most" men or women. However, if I take "most" to mean "stereotypical" ones that pop into my mind, your theory might hold some truth.

[Sapphire]

Sorry, by actions, we meant images of actions. For example, hentai is very graphic with not much plot, and is more appealing to men in general, while smut has a lottt of plot and is less graphic, and is yet more appealing to women.

[Buffalobiian]

Oh, in that case, yeah, action's good. :o


--------------------------------
Edit: Thought I'd elaborate a bit. I'll have to agree "more" with your theory, considering I can't understand half my doujins.

[bookfreakluver]

At the behest of Sapphi, or who some of you may know as Saphyrie, I've decided to finally come on here to give my input. Note: This is from a female perspective.



[18:47] <Yukimura> sapphi came up with the generalization that most women's attraction/satisfaction is derived from 'thought's/emotions' while most mens was derived from 'actions/behaviors'


Quite honestly, I agree and disagree on this. While thoughts/emotions stimulated and built up through the aid of a plot does help increase the intensity of any overall attraction/arousal/satisfaction/whatever that occurs, images of actions do the same, at least for me. When talking about smut vs. hentai specifically, it really just depends on the quality of the content when deciding which wins. For instance, too much plot and drama makes me gag, while anatomically-impossible hentai or hentai with ridiculous/overdone scenarios just make me laugh regardless of how intentionally arousing the images may be. In fact, sometimes too much explicitness can be a turn off.

I've heard from most guys that it really doesn't take much for them to get aroused, and this is likely biological in some aspects. But the fact than men seem to prefer hentai and women smut might simply be because men prefer visual stimulus whereas women prefer to use their imaginations (from what I've heard and discussed with other men/women myself).

Now, irl, I don't need to be involved emotionally to feel an attraction to someone, but I do need to be involved emotionally at least somewhat to become aroused enough for any measure of true satisfaction. This likely applies to most people regardless of gender.

There. That's my two-cents on the subject. Off to sleep.

[bookfreakluver]

Ah, one last thing, a conversation held earlier today (not in #gotwoot) that relates somewhat to my earlier post and may or may not be helpful.


<+bookfreakluver> so I have a question for any males here
<+bookfreakluver> do you ever think your penis looks weird?
<IFHTT> lol
<IFHTT> not really
<IFHTT> i've compared it to the way other penii look and it has it's own style
<IFHTT> but i don't consider it weird
<+bookfreakluver> Alright, then another question
<+bookfreakluver> considering that I might think that they look weird simply because I haven;'t had one all my life to look at everyday, do you ever think vaginas look weird?
<+bookfreakluver> haven't*
<IFHTT> hmm
<IFHTT> i think i've been kinda desensitezed to it through copious amounts of porn and stuff, but for the sake of answering the question, i suppose
<IFHTT> desensitized*
<+bookfreakluver> Hmm.
<+bookfreakluver> I wonder how many men might think subconciously "that looks weird" while looking at an porn image intended to be arousing
<Sapphi> i think vagina (my own) and penises look awesome
<IFHTT> oh well i think it varies from make and model
<IFHTT> i see some vaginas that fit in with the "once you've seen one, you've seen them all" standardized look
<IFHTT> but occasionally you see one that is like WHOA WHAT'S GOING ON DOWN THERE
<+bookfreakluver> lol
<+bookfreakluver> Hmm
<IFHTT> but i suppose the same could be said about penises in that context
<+bookfreakluver> Well I just spent the last 15 min looking at vaginas and penises
<IFHTT> lol
<+bookfreakluver> and have come to a conclusion
<+bookfreakluver> we have fucking weird genitalia
<IFHTT> lol
<Sapphi> we have weird faces too
<+bookfreakluver> true
<+bookfreakluver> I wonder if this might be why we have so many pedos
<Sapphi> what -doesn't- look "weird"?
<Sapphi> a circle?
<+bookfreakluver> because they (genitalia) don't seem to start looking weird until we hit puberty
<+bookfreakluver> well, sapphi,
<+bookfreakluver> as for what doesn't look weird, nothing really
<+bookfreakluver> I suppose it might be a case of looking too closely for too long
<+bookfreakluver> similar to when one repeats a word over and over for long enough that it sounds funny, I could be focusing on it too much
<+bookfreakluver> and thinking
<+bookfreakluver> "this is supposed to be arousing?"
<+bookfreakluver> to the point where I've just begun to find them silly-looking
<IFHTT> lol
<IFHTT> like a windsock hanging off the side of statue
<+bookfreakluver> heh
<+bookfreakluver> I think this might be part of why porn just makes me laugh instead of wet
<+bookfreakluver> it's just trying too hard
<IFHTT> i lol at porn as well
<IFHTT> though i suppose men are a little easier to sexually arouse
<+bookfreakluver> and that mixed in with the idea that one has to get aroused at porn, just makes it all too forced for me to appreciate it
<IFHTT> hmm
<+bookfreakluver> Truly, I prefer more subtle actions that inspire anticipation rather than immediate gratification
<+bookfreakluver> For instance
<Sapphi> i think saff should get in on teh thread too
<+bookfreakluver> link her then
<+bookfreakluver> anyhoo
<+bookfreakluver> I was kissing a guy once, we had been going out for a month but hadn't had sex yet. It was getting pretty heavy and hot, and we knew where it was going
<+bookfreakluver> But there was still part of me that seemed somewhat detached, and just analysing the whole situation
<Sapphi> oOoOO keep going bfl
<+bookfreakluver> I was pretty much "ok, we'll prolly have sex" and I was pleased
<+bookfreakluver> But now I want to bring up another time
<+bookfreakluver> Where I was flirting with this woman
<Sapphi> porn does not turn me on AT ALL
<Sapphi> i watch it for amusement purposes only
<+bookfreakluver> I had no clue really if she was interested in women, but she seemed amicable to mild flirting
<Sapphi> yay flirting
<+bookfreakluver> and I remember we were laughing at something she said, and she reached out to stroke my neck
<Sapphi> oh snaps
<+bookfreakluver> and I swear to god I felt this huge bolt of heat just flow down my spine to between my legs
<Sapphi> awesome
<Sapphi> i would feel a huge bolt of horror
<Sapphi> WTFFFF I HAVE BEEN VIOLATED, AGAIN
<+bookfreakluver> And I was feeling anticipation, nervousness, thinking "Holy hell did she do that on purpose? Is she interested?"
<Sapphi> FFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
<+bookfreakluver> Sapphi, lol
<+bookfreakluver> Anyway
<+bookfreakluver> the reason I bring up these two seperate experiences
<+bookfreakluver> is that in the situation with the man, my arousal was a slow burn, steadily getting there with help
<Sapphi> are you explaining why girls are sexy and awesome?
<+bookfreakluver> but with the woman, it came as a surprise, and was more powerfel as a result
<+bookfreakluver> nah
<Sapphi> i've felt the same "jolt" with guyz :s
<Sapphi> it doesn't help that i'm extremely perverted
<+bookfreakluver> I'm just explaining that unexpected sexy stuff works more than expected stuff
<Sapphi> and have an ab fetish
<+bookfreakluver> lol
<+bookfreakluver> I dunno
<+bookfreakluver> It's like
<+bookfreakluver> with the guy, I felt like it was a situation in which we were both expected to get aroused
<+bookfreakluver> and that kinda put me off
<+bookfreakluver> but with the girl
<+bookfreakluver> what she did came outta nowwhere
<+bookfreakluver> so I was caught by surprise
<Sapphi> <3 unexpected sexy stuff
<+bookfreakluver> indeed
<Sapphi> sometimes you can get unexpected sexy stuff when yuo're already expecting sexy stuff
<+bookfreakluver> also true
<Sapphi> and the person is like hey i'm sexier than you think i am and you're like WHOA
<saffronlover> atm i'm researching something a bit serious and all this sexy talk will make me all distracted and flushed ;)
<+bookfreakluver> lol saffronlover
<+bookfreakluver> come join us in our smexy convo
<+bookfreakluver> y'know
<+bookfreakluver> rather than a actual reply
<+bookfreakluver> I might just post this entire conversation on gotwoot as an adjutant-yet-related aspect of your post
<Sapphi> haha post it
<Sapphi> XP

[XanBcoo]

I often get a feeling similar to what you were describing. Like when I think about how an alien being might look at the human form, or its practices, I wonder how it might seem to them. Your analogy about repeating words until they sound weird is spot on. Once you get into meta-cognition everything starts to feel warped.

Anyway, you basically you all confirmed for me that even girls who say they like porn don't actually like porn the same way guys do. No surprise on my end. I agree with Sapphire.


<+bookfreakluver> with the guy, I felt like it was a situation in which we were both expected to get aroused
It sounds like you're a full on lesbian and just don't want to admit it to yourself.

[Sapphire]

Really? I don't think that post validly proves that she's a lesbian (even though she might be nowadays).. I think it just proves that she enjoys surprise and anticipation more than an obvious progression of things. We don't know if she ever felt the jolt thing with guys, or or she only felt it with the girl and if that's even relevant, since she was just giving two contrasting examples.

The whole anticipation/'jolt' thing described is very common in romance novels.<3 I can't remember if it is in erotica. YUKI!!

[Uchiha Barles]

I heard somewhere that men really are more visually stimulated and are able to get aroused mainly on the anticipation of sex, but for women, there's an issue of trust and safety that has to be addressed before arousal and satisfaction can even be considered.

Personally, visual stimuli are great and plentiful, but the, ugh, largest..biggest...best arousals (I really don't know how to word that, I'm seriously not making a euphamism for boner) have come from thought and imagination. Almost worked myself up into a frenzy this one time back in high school. Imagination > porn.

[Abdula]

As soon as I read DS's opinion on the matter I realized that that was my stance on the subject as well. While both Sapphire and Yuki made some good points I feel their arguments were entirely too subjective and were catering too much to stereotypes. Which I guess can't be helped since they themselves fit the bill quite nicely.



[18:44] <Yukimura> i.e how she might feel stimulated by reading a romance novel differently than reading a smutty manga
[18:45] <Yukimura> to which I replied that I didn't feel that attraction worked that way for me
[18:45] <Yukimura> and TT concured
[18:45] <Yukimura> we both put forward that regardless of the material we experiance the same 'sort' of feelings when we were aroused by something with the variation being in the intensity of the feelings

Meh, that is actually kinda sad to me. Apparently most guys are like that, I'm not but I really don't think it starts off that way. I think that's more of a developmental thing that is acquired from guys interacting with other guys. Somewhere along the line one starts thinking only of the endgame basically so regardless of the stimulus your reaction is the same and like you said the only variation is in intensity.



[[18:47] <Yukimura> sapphi came up with the generalization that most women's attraction/satisfaction is derived from 'thought's/emotions' while most mens was derived from 'actions/behaviors'

Can't be sure of what it is but something there really bothers me. Think perhaps you're oversimplifying the interrelationship between the two. As far as I see it it's those very same thoughts/emotions that result in said actions/behaviors which then evoke those very same thought/emotions. Of course I see that I am clearly taking this out of context.

Sorry, by actions, we meant images of actions. For example, hentai is very graphic with not much plot, and is more appealing to men in general, while smut has a lottt of plot and is less graphic, and is yet more appealing to women.
Generally speaking, you're right. Although, neither are really appealing to me but if I had to choose I would definitely take smut over hentai, I just don't get the appeal of hentai:confused:

Speaking of which of all the manga I've ever read my favorites would be probably Eternal Sabbath and MAKA-MAKA (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/maka_maka/?no_warning=1) and this is probably as good a time as ever to plug them. Maka-maka is probably the single sexiest story I've ever read and it isn't really about sex. In any case I highly recommend it.

Anyway even though there are a few other things I think I wanted to mention I seem to have lost my train of thought after the first paragraph.:o

Sex isn't really a topic I should be discussing anyway since I only know of sex in the context of a warm loving relationship.

In any case since I really can't think clearly at the moment someone let me know if anything I just posted makes any sense.

-Edit

Anyway, you basically you all confirmed for me that even girls who say they like porn don't [i]actually like porn the same way guys do. No surprise on my end. I agree with Sapphire.
No, while I'm sure that may be true in most cases there are those who genuinely love porn. I've met quite a few, there was one girl in particular who was incredibly annoying. It was like that one guy in high school who couldn't stop talking about his sexual exploits. You know that one guy who has to tell the whole world, in detail, about everyone he slept with, wants to sleep with, every porno he has ever watched etc. Only it was a girl so it was ten times worse. Although when she wasn't talking about that she was rather nice. Oh she had this weird oral fixation.

[rockmanj]

Yeah... I fear we may have an influx of pedos in the channel soon at the request of Sapphire, especially when they see the age she has set on the forums ... :/
I'm just glad I haven't been dragged into this...

[Buffalobiian]

Yeah... I fear we may have an influx of pedos in the channel soon at the request of Sapphire, especially when they see the age she has set on the forums ... :/

lol. I had Sapphi confused with Nado for a sex.

Pedo = into 92yr old?!?! Since wen?

[XanBcoo]

Dudes, it appears some new shit has come to light:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/personal/07/24/o.women.watching.porn/index.html?iref=mpstoryview


In a 2006 study at McGill University, researchers monitored genital temperature changes to measure sexual arousal and found that, when shown porn clips, men and women alike began displaying arousal within 30 seconds; men reached maximum arousal in about 11 minutes, women in about 12 (a statistically negligible difference, according to the study).

Even more compelling were the results of a 2004 study at Northwestern University that also assessed the effect of porn on genital arousal. Mind you, a copy of "Buffy the Vampire Layer" and a lubed-up feedback device isn't most girls' idea of a hot night in. But when the researchers showed gay, lesbian, and straight porn to heterosexual and homosexual women and men, they found that while the men responded more intensely to porn that mirrored their particular gender orientation, the women tended to like it all. Or at least their bodies did. Oprah.com How to feel good naked

But that's the hitch: Even when our bodies respond to what we're seeing, not every woman feels empowered to enjoy the show. For years we've been told that we won't -- or shouldn't -- be turned on by porn, end of story, sleep tight.

The message has come from all sides -- from conservative Christian organizations ("Traditionally, women are far more likely to engage in wistful, romantic fantasies than crude scenes of people engaging in sexual acts," Kathy Gallagher, cofounder of Pure Life Ministries, has written) to the radical feminist Catharine MacKinnon (who says porn exploits and discriminates against women, and encourages rape).

I've heard from many women that they don't like the sense of being "out of control" they get from watching porn -- that disconnect between how their body is feeling and what their brain is telling them is acceptable. I like to remind these women that porn won't make you do anything you didn't already want to do before you pressed Play on the "Edward Penishands" DVD. Oprah.com: What you still don't know about sex


Looks like DS and Abdula were right and the rest of us were quite wrong. In the end it all comes down to social norms because biologically, we all get hot and bothered by the same stuff.

[Sapphire]

Very interesting study!