One Piece Episode 402

[Marik]

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[Kraco]

Somehow the dynamics were somewhat lacking in this episode. The pirates were underperforming and standing still while the bad guys were using their powers to the max and moving around. You'd think the other rookies would have had quite a few tricks in their pockets if they have bounties equal to Luffy. Instead they seemed to run out of them really fast unless this was just a Rocky moment of them accepting hits before really getting up (but it didn't look like that).

Also Zoro, who after beating the steel fruit guy should be able to cut anything, was having lots of trouble against a robot. Sure, the laser beams were troublesome (although they could have waited the clone runs out of batteries), but with a little bit of distraction the clone would have become scrap metal.

Nevertheless, it looks like whoever is going to make a stand against the World government should start by killing Vegapunk. The guy is serious trouble.

[poopdeville]

Also, Luffy is in Second Gear but is running at his regular speed... Actually, everything seemed to be in slow motion.

[RasenDori]

ok so kizarus really strong and has that scary speed of light thing going on... but what really creeps me out is that he looks just like my father. the mannerisms are even similar. every time i look at the guy its just plane creepy.

[antiravage]

The pacifistas are made from a material stronger than steel, and zoro can’t cut steel with just any attack from his repertoire, the only attack zoro has that is proved to be capable of cutting steel is the one he used to beat Mr.1, and notice that was the exact same attack Zoro used against Kuma back in Triller Bark.

Also, the rookies are facing one of the three admirals, it was obvious they were going to get their asses kicked, they never stood a chance, it wouldn’t make sense considering the three admirals are the strongest forces the marines have, a force that helps to keep the balance between the imperators, the shishibukai and the marines. Remember how strong Aokiji was? Kisaru is around that level of power, the rookies still have to grow before they can compete with the legends ala Rayleigh, Kisaru, Blackbeard, Whitebeard…

[DarthEnderX]

I get the impression that Drake is gonna be an important character in the future what with being a former Rear-admiral and all. He knows things about the world government that none of the other pirates will know. Plus, T-Rex fruit! Hell yeah!

Scratch Apoo's power sucked. At first I thought he was a Sound Logia, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

[Kraco]

The pacifistas are made from a material stronger than steel, and zoro can’t cut steel with just any attack from his repertoire, the only attack zoro has that is proved to be capable of cutting steel is the one he used to beat Mr.1, and notice that was the exact same attack Zoro used against Kuma back in Triller Bark.

I never said Zoro should have sliced the clone with a ranged attack. That's why I said Luffy and Sanji should have distracted the robot (who never even seemed inclined to move much), and Zoro would have sneaked behind him and cut him in half. Because he can cut everything and nothing now. That was clearly stated back then. That was pretty much the whole point of the fight against Mr 1.


Also, the rookies are facing one of the three admirals, it was obvious they were going to get their asses kicked, they never stood a chance, it wouldn’t make sense…

Haha. I never said they should have beaten the logia admiral. I merely meant at least some of them should have been able to escape. But honestly they were just standing still and taking a beating, never really trying to fight back in a convincing manner.

[Sentenal]

I never said Zoro should have sliced the clone with a ranged attack. That's why I said Luffy and Sanji should have distracted the robot (who never even seemed inclined to move much), and Zoro would have sneaked behind him and cut him in half. Because he can cut everything and nothing now. That was clearly stated back then. That was pretty much the whole point of the fight against Mr 1.
The point of Zoro's fight with Mr. 1 was to learn to cut Steel. Not everything. I remember after the fight, before Mr. 1 lost consciousness, he asked him something like "Are you going to try and cut diamond next?", implying that he couldn't then. So he can cut Steel with that move he used to beat Mr. 1, but Pacifistas are harder than steel. It isn't surprising he can't cut that stuff easy. I mean, if it didn't work against Kuma, why would it work now?

[Kraco]

You can't cut Kuma because of the repel fruit ability. It has got nothing to do with being able to cut everything. You can't cut logia types, either.

And I'm not thinking in as concrete manner as you are. When fighting against Mr. 1 Zoro was thinking back to the old lesson of being able to cut nothing. It was a fundamental part of being able to cut everything, not to cut steel. Or let's say to understand any material and thus be able to cut it. Steel as such has got nothing to do with it. It was just one important step, because normally you aren't able to cut steel. Maybe he would need to learn also to cut Pacifista's material, but that shouldn't be so hard anymore for him, after having already learned the fundamental lesson.

Besides, Zoro said he won't cut diamonds, because it would be a waste. And what would a dying man anyway know of Zoro's discoveries, even more so because Mr. 1 wasn't even a swordsman.

[Sentenal]

Kuma didn't use his fruit ability to stop Zoro's attack. Zoro did exactly what you suggested he do against the Pacifista. Come up from behind, and cut him. Zoro sliced through the clothes on his shoulder, cut down to the robotic parts, but didn't cut it off. Kuma isn't a Logia type, and he repels things with the Paws on his hands.

Plus, the idea of "cutting nothing, and cutting everything", is just that. And idea. It doesn't mean Zoro has fully mastered the concept.

Also, in the Manga, when Mr.1 asked him if he would try to cut through Diamond next, Zoro said "I don't know yet."
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/196/12/

[Kraco]

Doesn't change anything. Even with Mr. 1 Zoro had to listen to the breath of steel to be able to cut it. And while he was concentrating on cutting steel, his sword didn't even cut the leaves of a palm. So, he would need to listen to the sound of the whatever material a Pacifista is made of to cut it. That's it, though. It doesn't matter as such what material it is, because he would be able to cut it, should he concentrate on it. Otherwise the whole revelation of the Mr. 1 fight would be rendered void, and I personally haven't been disappointed by Oda so much so far that I'd expect that to happen.

Why it could happen, though, is because this Pacifista is some sort of a clone or a robot. I don't think we will be seeing too many real people cut into pieces in a shounen show, which is why Zoro's fights don't always end like that.

And above all, I have yet to see a story where massproduced things are better than the original and so precious that they aren't scrapped in the end by the good guys.

[Penner]

Damn, that part when Kizaru teleported and took out one, then instantly back and facekicked the second, fucking BADASS!

[RyougaZell]

I never said Zoro should have sliced the clone with a ranged attack. That's why I said Luffy and Sanji should have distracted the robot (who never even seemed inclined to move much), and Zoro would have sneaked behind him and cut him in half. Because he can cut everything and nothing now.

An attack from the back is a shame for a Swordsman.
Remember Zoro's fight with Mihawk. He said that a cut to the back is very shameful. That same pride applies when they fight. He's never cut anyone on the back through all the series. He is a direct fighter, even if the battle is hopeless.

[chambers]

all the supernovas are really cool i hope they arent killed off now. I think it would be really nice if instead of some shitty filler episodes they showed us a part of the journey of one of the other supernovas crews, scratch man apoo imho seems very cool and also the giant angel guy should have some interesting backstory i think. In time i guess we will hear drakes as its more than likley an important story element. I wonder how far eustaces powers go? if he realizes hes fighting a machine can he rip it to pieces with his fruit?

[Carnage]

Link (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=LRN2THAG) to ACSF 720p

[Marik]

[ACSF] One Piece 402 HD [720p].mp4 (http://www.nyaatorrents.org/?page=download&tid=66152)

Torrent of the HD.

[poopdeville]

You can't cut Kuma because of the repel fruit ability. It has got nothing to do with being able to cut everything.

We've seen Kumas with and without the paw paw fruit.


And I'm not thinking in as concrete manner as you are. When fighting against Mr. 1 Zoro was thinking back to the old lesson of being able to cut nothing. It was a fundamental part of being able to cut everything, not to cut steel. Or let's say to understand any material and thus be able to cut it. Steel as such has got nothing to do with it. It was just one important step, because normally you aren't able to cut steel. Maybe he would need to learn also to cut Pacifista's material, but that shouldn't be so hard anymore for him, after having already learned the fundamental lesson.

Fundamental does not mean "complete". It is the beginning of the idea. Cutting Mr. 1 was certainly an achievement, but Zoro cannot cut just anything. Indeed, we have seen him fail.

Remember, Mihawk's sword was the one famous for being able to cut anything, and Zoro is working to surpass him. It's not so surprising Zoro is weaker half way through the Grand Line. Rayleigh is supposedly 100 times stronger than Luffy...

[DarthEnderX]

An attack from the back is a shame for a Swordsman.
Remember Zoro's fight with Mihawk. He said that a cut to the back is very shameful. That same pride applies when they fight. He's never cut anyone on the back through all the series. He is a direct fighter, even if the battle is hopeless.I think you have that backwards. When he says that, he doesn't mean that he should never attack an enemy from the back, he means that he should never turn his back on his enemy, as in, never turn to run away.

Zoro will never turn his back to the enemy, because it would make him dishonorable, but if his enemy were to do it, that's his enemies dishonor, not his.

[Kraco]

Fundamental does not mean "complete". It is the beginning of the idea. Cutting Mr. 1 was certainly an achievement, but Zoro cannot cut just anything. Indeed, we have seen him fail.

It might be he would need to be nearing death to achieve the state of mind to learn to cut a new tougher material, but looking at how things are proceeding, he's probably soon there in any case.


Remember, Mihawk's sword was the one famous for being able to cut anything, and Zoro is working to surpass him. It's not so surprising Zoro is weaker half way through the Grand Line. Rayleigh is supposedly 100 times stronger than Luffy...

This is One Piece, man. Flesh is 100 times stronger than any Mihawk sword in this story. Zoro is eagerly looking for better swords and Mihawk has a fancy one, but it's the man holding the sword that really counts, not the sword itself. Zoro knows this as well. But having a good sword has the added benefit of being reliable and beautiful. And cool of course.


An attack from the back is a shame for a Swordsman.

I don't care if Zoro first pats the Pacifista on the shoulder to get him to turn to face him. The point is to get close enough to the mofo to cut him, before he vaporises you with his lasers from a distance.

Edit: typo...

[poopdeville]

This is One Piece, man. Flesh is 100 times stronger than any Mihawk sword in this story. Zoro is eagerly looking for better swords ja Mihawk has a fancy one, but it's the man holding the sword that really counts, not the sword itself. Zoro knows this as well. But having a good sword has the added benefit of being reliable and beautiful. And cool of course.


That's pretty much what I mean. Mihawk's sword has earned a reputation as being able to cut through anything, because of Mihawk's abilities. Zoro is still a rookie. I am just saying that despite how strong Zoro is, there is still a lot of room to grow.

[Raven]

Damn, that part when Kizaru teleported and took out one, then instantly back and facekicked the second, fucking BADASS!
+1. Loved that part.

[Archangel]

Somehow the dynamics were somewhat lacking in this episode. The pirates were underperforming and standing still while the bad guys were using their powers to the max and moving around. You'd think the other rookies would have had quite a few tricks in their pockets if they have bounties equal to Luffy. Instead they seemed to run out of them really fast unless this was just a Rocky moment of them accepting hits before really getting up (but it didn't look like that).

That's not really a testament to how weak they are, but how strong the marine's top forces can be


Scratch Apoo's power sucked. At first I thought he was a Sound Logia, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Dude he sliced a arm and then the upper torso of the guy at a distance! That would be lethal to anyone who isn't a Logia

Also, i'd assume that's the music fruit

[Kraco]

Also, i'd assume that's the music fruit

Looked more like an orchestra fruit, but who knows. We might still get a logia type sound fruit at some point, which could be really cool as it should rely on audio more heavily than explicit action usually does (not to say audio would be unimportant for any effect and scene - far from it).

[Assertn]

That would be ridiculous if a music fruit could turn your body into various instruments. All of the fruits we've seen so far have been based on natural phenomena. There's nothing natural about clarinets or keyboards.

[Death13a]

this episode was so much better after being animated with sound.

[Archangel]

Wow, that's just not true Assertn O_o

What is natural about a huge vodoo doll? Or a "room" that can change people's heads? Or the ability to split all your members apart?

And my biggest example:

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/777/noronoro.th.jpg (http://img5.imageshack.us/my.php?image=noronoro.jpg)

No matter how you spin it, there is no natural phenomenon on this earth that can reproduce that

[Assertn]

Voodoo is based on the supernatural, which is, essentially, natural. Same thing with ghosts and reincarnation. And "room" just rearranges things around in 3d space...like quantum mechanics. Concepts, myths and ideas don't really bother me as fruit abilities... just things that are characteristically artificial.

Also, the Noro Noro beam is far from a counter-example, as it was even explained in its first reveal by Silver Fox as a technique which utilizes particles that scientists haven't even discovered yet.

I think the best counter-argument would be that guy on Jaya who had the spring fruit. In which case, I would have to point to the elastic properties of springs that the fruit is based on, rather than actual springs themselves.

[Xyrox]

And where exactly do you find doors in nature? =P

[Archangel]

Not that i buy those arguments for a second (except maybe the one for the noro noro fruit), but i guess i can come up with some more examples:

Suke Suke no Mi - Perfect invisibility, nothing like a chameleon's camouflage but something that turns you and everything you touch transparent

Mane Mane no Mi - To be able to perfectly reproduce someone's physical features just by a touch with the right hand and to turn back using your left one

By best example would probably be the fruit my favorite female character has in the manga, but that hint should be enough for you right?

[RyougaZell]

As wrong as it sounds... I do agree with Archie on this one. How 'natural' is to change a sword into an elephant? Or a dog into a cannon?

Also...



By best example would probably be the fruit my favorite female character has in the manga, but that hint should be enough for you right?



If i did that i'd be posting in the manga thread too you idiot

I throw something like 2 or 3 theories on each One Piece thread so i'm bound to get a couple of wins every now and then by probability alone


:rolleyes:

[Xyrox]

As wrong as it sounds... I do agree with Archie on this one. How 'natural' is to change a sword into an elephant? Or a dog into a cannon?

In these cases, however, we're talking about things (a sword/cannon) that have 'eaten' a fruit. Vegapunk again if I recall correctly.

[Archangel]

As wrong as it sounds... I do agree with Archie on this one.

Hahaha that one never gets old... until just now

And check the dates you moron, i posted that before i started to read the manga

[Assertn]

Ugh....Archie....
Invisibility is just another supernatural ability. Mimicing identities is the same basic idea. None of these things counter my initial point that devil fruit abilities don't portray artificial / man-made things.

Also...inanimate objects consuming devil fruits falls beyond the purview of this conversation. This is Vegapunk's doing - it has nothing to do with the devil fruits themselves.

The door one, however, is worth arguing over. I'd be willing to shrug that one off as more formally a "pass through solid objects" fruit.

[Archangel]

Ugh....Archie....
Invisibility is just another supernatural ability. Mimicing identities is the same basic idea. None of these things counter my initial point that devil fruit abilities don't portray artificial / man-made things.

Fine, if that's how you want to play it

Supa Supa no Mi - The fruit eaten by Mr. 1 that allows him to turn his body to steel. As far as i know, steel can't be found in nature and must be created by man

Bomu Bomu no Mi - The fruit eaten by Mr. 5 that allows him to become a human bomb, another human creation ( although i guess you could make the point that nature could combine its elements to create a bomb aswell even without human interference )

Shari Shari no Mi - A fruit eaten my a marine officer that allows him to turn him arms and feet into wheels, perhaps one of humanity's first creations

This is an interesting fruit since it was introduced in the manga during the Enies Lobby escape but was never shown in the anime. Since the event has already happened, i wouldn't call this a spoiler.

Details here - http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Shari_Shari_no_Mi

[DarthEnderX]

Also, Capone's fruit apparently turned his insides into some kind of castle.
Dude he sliced a arm and then the upper torso of the guy at a distance! That would be lethal to anyone who isn't a LogiaYeah, but the way that scene was set up, with Kizaru basically talking smack about how none of them could hurt a Logia user, then Scratch starts his attack and starts emitting sound waves I though "oooh snap! Sound logia!" But then it turned out he's just an instrument man or some shit.

[Assertn]

Or Capone is a giant cyborg that ate a fruit which lets him shrink himself to normal human size ;P

[Penner]

hah, if thats true, can you imagine the size he originally was? that would be one bigass cyborg :P

Though i really doubt thats the case ^^

[Archangel]

Or Capone is a giant cyborg that ate a fruit which lets him shrink himself to normal human size ;P

I noticed you ignored all my arguments. Does that mean we're done with that? :p


Yeah, but the way that scene was set up, with Kizaru basically talking smack about how none of them could hurt a Logia user, then Scratch starts his attack and starts emitting sound waves I though "oooh snap! Sound logia!" But then it turned out he's just an instrument man or some shit.

Well you could have figured it out that there would be no way for a Logia user to have a bounty that low

Just to give an example, Oda said that if Enel had a bounty it would be of 500.000.000 http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/e/e3/Bsymbol.gif

[Assertn]

Archie...all your arguments are subjective.

Steel is a material. Big deal. Someone could have the plastic fruit and I wouldn't think much of it.

Explosions can happen naturally just as it can be artificial. Thats basically what active stars are.

Wheels are just as valid as the previously-mentioned spring fruit.

Is this conversation still fun for you?

[Archangel]

Is this conversation still fun for you?

Kinda

I'll pretty much take any excuse to get the ball rolling on the One Piece forums

You got my example on that rep comment right?

[Splash!]

@ Assertn:
If you can accept the voodoo fruit, which involves not only perfoming it but producing voodoo figurines from your body, then I don't see why you can't explain the music fruit by that same 'logic'. He transforms his body into something that can be used to manipulate a natural phenomena (sound, in this case) much like Hawkins' ability to transform his body into a voodoo dolls that can be used to manipulate supernatural phenomena.

If you are willing the stretch the definition of 'natural phenomena' that much, then what's the problem? :P

[chambers]

apoo is the music man, he comes from round your wayyyyy
what can he play? what can he play?
he plays the ARM FLUTE?!

arm flute, arm flute, arm flu-oot, arm flu-oot, arm flu-oot!

[Assertn]

@ Assertn:
If you can accept the voodoo fruit, which involves not only perfoming it but producing voodoo figurines from your body, then I don't see why you can't explain the music fruit by that same 'logic'. He transforms his body into something that can be used to manipulate a natural phenomena (sound, in this case) much like Hawkins' ability to transform his body into a voodoo dolls that can be used to manipulate supernatural phenomena.

If you are willing the stretch the definition of 'natural phenomena' that much, then what's the problem? :P

Here's an idea....

If you can accept that there are other people in the One Piece world that attack with music (for example the monkey from Jaya island), then you could accept that Apoo's ability wouldn't require a devil's fruit.

This is reminiscent of the annoying-ass bloodline arguments from the Naruto threads.

[Splash!]

Here's an idea....

If you can accept that there are other people in the One Piece world that attack with music (for example the monkey from Jaya island), then you could accept that Apoo's ability wouldn't require a devil's fruit.

This is reminiscent of the annoying-ass bloodline arguments from the Naruto threads.

Touch'e, I honestly did not remember that. I don't understand why you didn't bring that up earlier instead of discussing how DF's are based on natural phenomena (which i still think is just BS). I guess I have just gotten used to explaining most weird abilities through Devil Fruits because that is typically the most common explanation in one piece, granted not the only one.

[poopdeville]

This is reminiscent of the annoying-ass bloodline arguments from the Naruto threads.

Hey, don't blame me for their poor reading comprehension. Kakashi is really clear about what they are, and what they are named.

Just sayin... :)