Naruto Chapter 446

[DDBen]

Available online at http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/446/

[iMUSTbeTHEdevil]

Interesting to see where the philiosphy of pain came from.

[unandpw]

Danzo and Hanzo, who da thunk?

[Patriot]

Yeah so instead of revenge against Salamander Hanzou and Charmander Danzou, he wants to kill everyone? His story is a story that is told a million times in a war torn area, and he essentially became the person he hates, and sows more like him, the question will be, can Naruto break the cycle?

If the answer is no, then Pain must die, however, if the answer is yes, the Naruto must let Pain live, and that is the problem, because he can always attack and destroy ...

[iMUSTbeTHEdevil]

Yeah so instead of revenge against Salamander Hanzou and Charmander Danzou, he wants to kill everyone? His story is a story that is told a million times in a war torn area, and he essentially became the person he hates, and sows more like him, the question will be, can Naruto break the cycle?

If the answer is no, then Pain must die, however, if the answer is yes, the Naruto must let Pain live, and that is the problem, because he can always attack and destroy ...

Naruto wont kill him, but after - someone else will. So it will solve that problem.

[Death BOO Z]

well, what do we learn from that?

that you shouldn't be so damn fuckin' stupid, what were they thinking, trusting someone like Hanzo.

[Archangel]

Jesus Christ O_o

Somehow i can't really blame Pain for being so fucked up, not after seeing this


well, what do we learn from that?

that you shouldn't be so damn fuckin' stupid, what were they thinking, trusting someone like Hanzo.

That's not fair

They were still children looking for peace, so i'm sure it would be very easy for a seasoned fighter like Hanzo to manipulate those wishes to his likings

[Abdula]

Still gotta agree with DBZ. Children or not they were too naive. They put their little group together and played at being adults and I'm sure all Hanzo had to do was prey on their desire to make the world a better place. Like Nagato said they were just kids, and they got themselves in way over their heads.

Orochimaru was right, its a cruel life. They probably would have been better of if he had just killed them. It's sad really.

That was a good chapter. This is the kind of thing Kishimoto does well.

-Oh and I'm really starting to like Danzo.

[FireEmblem]

Interesting. Makes me wonder what role Danzou will play. I think right now he's an even more mysterious character than Madara to me. Or I guess it's more like I just don't know exactly what will happen around him. It wouldn't surprise me if he showed up now and killed Pain...

One thing that bugs me, but not really in such a bad way, is how Pain speaks about Jiraiya. In such a positive way, but the way he went about killing him didn't show that he felt that way at all about him. Granted things did happen in between, but it's still hard to fathom that the things Jiraiya did for them could be forgotten like that.

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

sucks yahiko had to die like that, he woulda made a good character.... more interesting than nagato Im sure. Kishi definitely did play that out well. Too bad we'll probably never get to see when Pain gets his revenge on Hanzo.

[Archangel]

Too bad we'll probably never get to see when Pain gets his revenge on Hanzo.

O_o Why not?

If i had to bet i'd say we're gonna see that on the next chapter, the chapter in which Nagato is shaped into Pain

[enkoujin]

sucks yahiko had to die like that, he woulda made a good character.... more interesting than nagato Im sure. Kishi definitely did play that out well. Too bad we'll probably never get to see when Pain gets his revenge on Hanzo.

Hanzo was killed by Nagato...

[Sam98034]

Pain can still get revenge on Danzo. Pain is also probably the reason Danzo didn't become Hokage. I bet he screws up their plans somehow.

But I guess the rinnegan is less badass warrior and more enlightened sage/messiah now.

btw, since Pain can use all 6 elements, he could theoretically have all the bloodline jutsus too right?

[iMUSTbeTHEdevil]

Pain can still get revenge on Danzo. Pain is also probably the reason Danzo didn't become Hokage. I bet he screws up their plans somehow.

But I guess the rinnegan is less badass warrior and more enlightened sage/messiah now.

btw, since Pain can use all 6 elements, he could theoretically have all the bloodline jutsus too right?

I thought that he just got the jutsu of those he controlls.

[Sam98034]

no, I think that would mean that they all had just one jutsu then, wouldn't it? And I'm sure they each had more than that. And the sage of the past who had the rinnegan could use all six. I guess we don't really know if Negatto can do that.

[Abdula]

:D Beat me to it.

No. Nagato himself can use all six elements, and those techniques the Pains were using are his own techniques too. They aren't techniques the ninjas themselves had.

[Sidnne]

Why does everyone always have this fascination with bloodline limits that they want to assume every character has one or that every ability we haven't seen yet is one?

A bloodline limit consists of multiple elements, but that does not mean that multiple elements is automatically a bloodline limit. In order for one to have a bloodline limit, it would have to be in his, well... bloodline.


I thought that he just got the jutsu of those he controlls.

This was never revealed and there has been some debate on it. Its most likely that the jutsus are static and belonging to the Rinnegan. The rinnegan allowing the user to weild all 6 elements, but unlike the sage of the 6 paths, Nagato isn't strong enough to use them all himself, so he employs the 6 bodies of Pein, each using a single element.

There are several pieces of evidence to support that, but the most glaring would be the Chibaku Tensei. Yahiko's body performed the jutsu, so one could argue that the jutsu belonged to Yahiko, but we saw him die without ever using it. The sage of the 6 paths, however, used the jutsu to create the moon. So if both Rinnegan-users are using the same jutsus then its safe to presume that the jutsus belong to the Rinnegan and not the bodies.


You both beat me to it. Mine was too long :(

[poopdeville]

Why does everyone always have this fascination with bloodline limits that they want to assume every character has one or that every ability we haven't seen yet is one?

A bloodline limit consists of multiple elements, but that does not mean that multiple elements is automatically a bloodline limit. In order for one to have a bloodline limit, it would have to be in his, well... bloodline.


What Kakashi said on the subject contradicts your rant.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/316/05/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/316/06/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/316/07/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/316/08/

I think that's why people assume that new abilities outside of the 6 elemental chakras are bloodline limits.

[Archangel]

You forgot the most important page

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/316/09/

Until that whole "Yin and Yang" or "Light and Shdow" manipulation deal is explained and we're not explicitly told that said ability is a bloodline limit we shouldn't assume anything.

[FireEmblem]

Being able to use multiple elements is not the same as using multiple elements TOGETHER. "Water & wind" are not the same as "water + wind".

It would make sense and be ok if Pain can use all 6 elemental manipulations separately. If he can use all of them TOGETHER, which is doubtful, since nothing even hinted at THAT, then his power would be even more insane than it currently is.

[Sam98034]

summoning is space/time, that's not one of the elements, it's probably closer to pain's gravity move, but summoning isn't a bloodlimit (though it uses blood).

[Sidnne]

What Kakashi said on the subject contradicts your rant.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/316/05/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/316/06/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/316/07/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/316/08/

I think that's why people assume that new abilities outside of the 6 elemental chakras are bloodline limits.

Do you realize that you get dumber every time you post? You have possibly the worst reading comprehension out of anyone on these forums. Somehow, you almost always manage to take what someone says, confuse yourself with it, and interpret it as something that usually isn't even close to its intended meaning.

Now, allow me to attempt to enlighten you, even though you probably won't be able to grasp one bit of what I say.

I didn't ask why people assume that new abilities "outside of the 6 elemental chakras" are bloodline limits. I asked why people have such a fascination with bloodlines that they want to assume every character has one or that every ability we haven't seen yet is one. In other words, why are people such fanboys for bloodline limits that they want every character to have one and every ability to be one?
(edit: and just so we're extra clear; its a hypothetical question. I'm not really interested in peoples' personal opinions as to why they have a hard-on for bloodline limits)

And I’m fully aware of Kakashi’s explanation, and if you had any reading comprehension you would realize that his explanation is actually referenced by my post and not contradicted by it.

Here it is again:
A bloodline limit consists of multiple elements, but that does not mean that multiple elements is automatically a bloodline limit. In order for one to have a bloodline limit, it would have to be in his, well... bloodline.

Not really sure how to make that any clearer; that seems pretty cut and dry to me. But, maybe Kakashi can explain it for you better: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/25/14/

Now, going back to Sam’s post (to which mine was in response), just because Nagato can use all of the elements does not mean he would be able to use the bloodline limits that we have seen. If he has a bloodline limit, it would be the Rinnegan. He would not be able to use other limits, such as Haku’s ice jutsus or Kimimaro’s bone jutsus because those jutsus were part of their bloodline (hence why it is called a bloodline limit) and Nagato does not share their bloodline.

Once more:
A bloodline limit consists of multiple elements, but that does not mean that multiple elements is automatically a bloodline limit. In order for one to have a bloodline limit, it would have to be in his, well... bloodline.

And as Archangel said, anytime a bloodline limit has appeared in the manga, it has been explicitly stated as such. There is no reason to assume a bloodline limit.

So, as usual, I must remind you to please think before you post.

[Patriot]

Sorry, I want to change the focus for a bit...

I understand what Pain went through to come to his answer, but what if, he hadn't gone through these things, would it change his prospective? What I mean is, if he creates his 9 tails weapons (using all nine beasts) and is able to use it as a deterent, why is this idea so far fetched. In fact that's exactly what we are doing in our own world today and have been since WW2. The fact we are going wow, what a nut job when we look at Pain is almost comical, when this is exactly how our society developed. When we go to war its called a peace keeping mission or Nato mandate. In fact we are at a war on terror, not actually against any country in particular. Its a technicality I know, but after the arms race, and everything that occured in between the thirst for war has gone away, and only those countries that do not have the capibilbity to blow each other away with a press of the button dare engage each other...

It terms of realistic solutions, even though my argument may not be the best presented, and not saying that it is the best solution availible, but Pain's method is the one our world in fact employs. I had actually dismissed his idea because I thought he was out there, but then it just occured, maybe not...

[Rikudo]

So if we're to say that Konoha is the USA, would that make Obama our Kakashi. Bush or Cheney as Danzou. Bin Laden as Nagato/Pain. Who's Naruto?

[Archangel]

So if we're to say that Konoha is the USA, would that make Obama our Kakashi. Bush or Cheney as Danzou. Bin Laden as Nagato/Pain. Who's Naruto?

Sarah Palin

[FireEmblem]

Sorry, I want to change the focus for a bit...

I understand what Pain went through to come to his answer, but what if, he hadn't gone through these things, would it change his prospective? What I mean is, if he creates his 9 tails weapons (using all nine beasts) and is able to use it as a deterent, why is this idea so far fetched. In fact that's exactly what we are doing in our own world today and have been since WW2. The fact we are going wow, what a nut job when we look at Pain is almost comical, when this is exactly how our society developed. When we go to war its called a peace keeping mission or Nato mandate. In fact we are at a war on terror, not actually against any country in particular. Its a technicality I know, but after the arms race, and everything that occured in between the thirst for war has gone away, and only those countries that do not have the capibilbity to blow each other away with a press of the button dare engage each other...

It terms of realistic solutions, even though my argument may not be the best presented, and not saying that it is the best solution availible, but Pain's method is the one our world in fact employs. I had actually dismissed his idea because I thought he was out there, but then it just occured, maybe not...

The way we came about our Nuclear weapons (deterrent) is completely different from Pain's way though. The parallel that would work would be if every country had a different weapon that they could use as a deterrent and then someone went around and took those weapons from those countries to form one super ultra weapon using those technologies. Clearly that is not how the world is.

I see the point you're making, but the only similarity between the real world and the Narutoverse is that deterrence is becoming a focus. The world in Naruto BEFORE Pain came into the picture is closer to our world. With the Bijuu's representing Nuclear weapons.

[Yukimura]

Disclaimer: I am just trying to clear up a potential misconception I percieved.


A bloodline limit consists of multiple elements, but that does not mean that multiple elements is automatically a bloodline limit. In order for one to have a bloodline limit, it would have to be in his, well... bloodline.

Not really sure how to make that any clearer; that seems pretty cut and dry to me.

I believe you could make this clearer by not using ambiguous wording. Your use of "A bloodline limit" could easily be interpreted as "Any bloodline limit" which, in the first use of the phrase, could lead to a seemingly false conclusion, based on other evidence in the manga. I believe the Sharingan, Byakugan, and Kimimaro's bone ability are all acknowledged as BLs. These abilities demonstrate that not all BLs necessarily involve the blending of two types of elemental chakra into a new type of chakra. As you have pointed out it was also stated that the ability to blend elemental chakra into a new type is something that is only possible via a BL. If you take these two facts together and try to derive a theory on what a Bloodline Limit is from both of them you might come up with something like this: "A Bloodline Limit is an ability or attribute that someone not born with the inherent potential for can not 'learn' through mere practice or study or training."

This theoretical definition would support both unique physical abilities (seeing chakra, hyper perception, 360 degree vision, manipulating your bone growth rate, etc) and unique chakra manipulation abilities (Ice, Wood, etc) as BL's. It should also allow for something like Kakashi's seemingly contradictory possession of a Bloodline Limit despite not being of the proper bloodline. Taking into account that the Sharingan's abilities are properties of the eyes themselves (since Kakashi can use them) then one might theorize that the actual BL of the Uchiha clan is the ability of their bodies to develop (and perhaps efficiently support the use of) the Sharingan. In the same way Kimimaro's BL would be the ability for his body to manipulate and support the manipulation of his bones. As far as I can tell this theory doesn't contradict anything seen so far in the manga and more importantly doesn't seem to leave out anything that has been directly acknowledged as being a BL.

Other than that I am inclined to agree with Siddnne about the Rinnegan's omni-elemental usage not giving access to elemental blending abilities traditionally associated with bloodline limits. My impression is that a Rinnegan users chakra has an equal affinity for all six elemental types making mastery of any type no more difficult for them than anyone with a natural affinity for that element (possibly even easier than a normal person with an affinity). My personal theory about the Rinnegan in general is that the Rinnegan powers have nothing to do with the users eyes themselves unlike the Sharingan and Byakugan. I think the ring look is just a side effect of the true ability which is possessing a special kind of chakra with lots of abnormal properties. If you considering the way the multiple bodies were explained and the seemingly unique techniques attributed to the Rinnegan which have no obvious correlation with the actual eyes it seems to make a lot of sense.

[DB_Hunter]

The issue with the whole Pein Vs USA thing is that Pein is trying to achieve world peace and admits to using evil means to do it, whereas the USA is actually on an colonial campaign in the world by utilising evil means and not admitting to it. Pein williningly reveals his motivations, whereas for the USA you have to analyse what is going on.

[Sam98034]

Okay, the USA and world politics is a perfectly good discussion...but this doesn't seem like the best place for it. I don't see how you can have a good discussion on world politics using Naruto as the foundation of the discussion. So, although a good discussion in and of itself, it probably doesn't belong in a Naruto Chpt. 446 thread.

Sidnne, I like what you had to say, and it was worded well, but aren't you being just maybe a teensy bit harsh on poopdeville. I mean, he's not exactly doing it to piss you off on purpose (is he?).

And as far as the bloodline stuff, I wouldn't expect someone like Pein to have physical bloodline limits like extra-special bones, regenerative properties, or anything like that. But I would expect him to have maybe several bloodline limits that involve a combination of two elemental jutsus. I only say this because the original Rinnegan sage must have been able to use many of these bloodline techniques since he, himself, was the one who created all the jutsus in the first place, correct? If he was good enough to use all the the elementals at a high level, but not combine them, it would be similar to Lee, who is an extraordinary ninja, yet cannot use any ninjutsu.

[Pandadice]

so I think that Pain is definitely gonna die at the end of this... and then Tsunade is going to die, but maybe she'll get a volume dedicated to her as well? i dunno. I don't really think that kakashi is dead.. seeing as how they brought Hinata back and all. but the one line Naruto had when he first popped back from toad-land, where he's like "this chakra.. does that mean that kakashi is.." and they're like "yeah..".

but, what if they recycled old story elements, and had Tsunade use some kind of healing jutsu thing to bring Kakashi back in place of her own life? i could definitely see that happening..

you know what would be really cool? what if Danzo takes over using root after tsunade dies, and then he turns the village into some kind of oppressed totalitarian state? and then the younger ninja/main kids each choose either to stay and work for him or to branch off as a sort of anti-government group which becomes it's own separate entity/village and Naruto leads it with guidance from Kakashi, and Shikamaru. like half the kids stay with Danzo though, like Ino, Kiba, Tenten, Neji all stay.

oh, and Sasuke joins Naruto too, so like Naruto and Sasuke work together to take down the totalitarian state that is Konoha.

that would be super cool. but what would happen with Akatsuki?

their leader is dead, half their members are dead.. they've got like all but 1 of the Bi-juu (kyu-bi), so what's gonna happen to them? what if this new totalitarian Konoha tries to take them all out? and then takes all of the bi-juu for Konoha! since Akatsuki loses their leader, they're in chaos and start a lot of in-fighting, which lets Konoha take them out easier. awman! then it uses all of them to become the top power over all the countries, and what Naruto and Sasuke are trying to do is steal the bi-juu and take them and give them to the other countries like they used to be.

dude! that'd be such an awesome way to take the manga!

[Sam98034]

remind me again why Tsunade is going to die...
how old are you btw? your thoughts seem rambled and a bit disorganized, like a little kid with ADD, but it seems like you've really thought about this a lot. When you talked about what would happen to Akatsuki, you probably shouldn't have incorporated what might have happened if the other thing had happened to happen. But that is a good point. If Pein is gone, then the group might be done, so wouldn't Tobi have to reveal himself so the group won't break apart?

[Yukimura]

Tsunade has to die because the Sannin have to go away so that the "next generation" can take over. Oro is gone and with him gone Sasuke has 'leveled up' as demonstrated by his battle with Itachi, Jiraiya is gone and with him gone Naruto has 'leveled up' as shown by his battle with Pain, if Sakura is ever to truly 'level up' Tsunade will have to die and then Sakura will have to do something to show that she has inherited her legacy.

Frankly I was surprised that Pain didn't kill Tsunade before Naruto showed up but one way or another I think she is going to die. Pandadice's theory about her using a die to bring someone back to life jutsu on Kakashi would be an effective way to do it, but whatever the circumstances, I think she's going to be gone before the year is out.

[Abdula]

But that is a good point. If Pein is gone, then the group might be done, so wouldn't Tobi have to reveal himself so the group won't break apart?
All the remaining members of Akatsuki not only know Tobi's identity but they all seem to be loyal to him, and the other members of Akatsuki are replaceable.

[Pandadice]

how old are you btw? your thoughts seem rambled and a bit disorganized, like a little kid with ADD, but it seems like you've really thought about this a lot.

sorry, it was late last night, and i was tired and should'a been in bed at least 2 hours before i wrote that..

i hadn't actually put much thought into it, at all. i was having a discussion with a friend about the newest chapter (minutes before i posted that), and then I was like "man.. this is all just pain backstory.. i don't care about this. I wanna see what will happen to the village". and then i started just throwing ideas out, and this is where i ended up, and then I thought "i should post this at gotwoot.."

anyways, out to Mothersday lunch.

[Sidnne]

As I've said before, many, many chapters ago, I'm convinced that Tsunade is already dead or dying.

The last time we saw her was when her hands shriveled up when Naruto started fighting Pein. Every other character has appeared since then. I imagine that the next time we see her will be with a bunch of people, including Sakura, standing over her as she uses her last breath to tell Naruto that he will be a great Hokage. Either that or she will use the last bit of her energy to revive Kakashi and then fall over dead immediately following that.

There seems to be a tradition of Hokage's dying everytime Konoha is attacked. The 4th "died" when Kyuubi attacked, The 3rd died when the Sand and Oro attacked, and now the 5th will have died when Pein attacked. And each of them died making a sacrifice; Tsunade's being to use up her energy to protect everyone from Pein's explosion.


Sidnne, I like what you had to say, and it was worded well, but aren't you being just maybe a teensy bit harsh on poopdeville. I mean, he's not exactly doing it to piss you off on purpose (is he?).


No, this has been going for a few months now. He seems to be on a mission to try to contradict everything I say, even though he usually doesn't understand what it is thats being said. I usually just ignore him, but I had just woken up and was irritable when I read his reply.

[Abdula]

No, this has been going for a few months now. He seems to be on a mission to try to contradict everything I say, even though he usually doesn't understand what it is thats being said. I usually just ignore him, but I had just woken up and was irritable when I read his reply.
:o He's declared war:rolleyes:

Apparently Poopdeville just plain doesn't like us. Mostly just me, and he sees you as an Abdula supporter so it can't be helped. I guess you're collateral damage:p Well that seems to be his rationale, so don't make a big deal out of it.

Anyway...........

Everybody knows my thoughts on the whole Tsunade thing so I don't think I need to mention that yet again. I'll say that she has redeemed herself a bit though but like Yuki said, she has to die.

My impression is that a Rinnegan users chakra has an equal affinity for all six elemental types making mastery of any type no more difficult for them than anyone with a natural affinity for that element (possibly even easier than a normal person with an affinity). My personal theory about the Rinnegan in general is that the Rinnegan powers have nothing to do with the users eyes themselves unlike the Sharingan and Byakugan. I think the ring look is just a side effect of the true ability which is possessing a special kind of chakra with lots of abnormal properties. If you considering the way the multiple bodies were explained and the seemingly unique techniques attributed to the Rinnegan which have no obvious correlation with the actual eyes it seems to make a lot of sense.
That is what I first thought when Jiraiya was fighting Pain and the Rinnegan was first introduced so naturally I agree. However I seem to recall Jiraiya mentioning that the Rinnengan actually had doujutsus at some point. But since I couldn't seem to find the chapter where it was actually mentioned I think it might have just been a mistranslation that was later corrected.

Still whatever technique Nagato used to kill the Hidden Stone Chuunin here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/372/17/) and to kill those leaf ninjas here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/444/17/) could very well have been a doujutsu.

[Sam98034]

That's a good point, Abdula. Chances are that, if he used some elemental technique, you might have seen evidence of it in the surrounding area; however, all we see is dead bodies on the floor (♪let the bodies hit the floor...).

Does anyone have a strange feeling that it's going to end up like this: Pein's hidden power is kind of like a Jinchiruuki (spl?) and he and Naruto are really alike. People were frightened of Nagato's power and looked at him with those eyes. Then Naruto and Gaara, I mean Pein, will truly understand each other.

[Archangel]

Doujutsus or not Pain is finished

He used up enough chakra that it caused internal hemorrhage and he's dealing with a sage/fox powered naruto

I won't say he doesn't have a last Ace up his sleeve but i very much doubt it will do him much good now

[Sam98034]

Doujutsus or not, Pain is finished

He used up enough chakra that it caused internal hemorrhage, and he's dealing with a sage/fox powered Naruto.

I won't say he doesn't have a last Ace up his sleeve, but i very much doubt it will do him much good now.

Jiraiya/Hanzo clone...it's coming. But I thought we agreed that Naruto wasn't going to kill him because he's going to truly understand him and all and bring peace to the world. If he dies, it will be because he can't get a medical specialist there in time to save him. His last words will be along the lines of "I regret--cough--what I've done up until now. Naruto--cough--you saved me, and now I truly under--cough--stand what Jiraiya said . I'm sorry Naruto, it's all up to you now. But--cough--here's a little secret about Akatsuki to help you...[insert secret] Farewell...I'm sorry...Yahiko."

[Archangel]

I didn't agree with anything ...

And Kishimoto has been pleasantly surprising me with these latest chapters so i'll have confidence that he won't fuck up the whole arc with such a shitty ending

[Assertn]

You know...if it wasn't for the rain...I'd say it was pretty lame for Konan to be a hostage like that. While the rain obviously had its role as a symbolic device for Nagato, I'd imagine it would hinder Konan's abilities the same way Jiraiya's toad oil did.

[Archangel]

Yeah

Which makes you think, why would a rain ninja develop a jutsu that can't be used during the rain? O_o

[poopdeville]

Do you realize that you get dumber every time you post?


That's more applicable to you. It's sad to see someone project their insecurities onto others. Unfortunately, they appear to be true about you.



I didn't ask why people assume that new abilities "outside of the 6 elemental chakras" are bloodline limits. I asked why people have such a fascination with bloodlines that they want to assume every character has one or that every ability we haven't seen yet is one. In other words, why are people such fanboys for bloodline limits that they want every character to have one and every ability to be one?


Because elemental natures other than the main six are combinations of the main natures, and those combinations are only possible with a bloodline limit, as Kakashi explained.



And I’m fully aware of Kakashi’s explanation, and if you had any reading comprehension you would realize that his explanation is actually referenced by my post and not contradicted by it.

Here it is again:
A bloodline limit consists of multiple elements, but that does not mean that multiple elements is automatically a bloodline limit. In order for one to have a bloodline limit, it would have to be in his, well... bloodline.


What part of "The ability to use two elements simultaneously and create a new element to manipulate... that is what is called a kekkei genkai" is unclear to you? Kakashi is clearly saying that bloodline limits are THE ABILITY TO USE TWO CHAKRA NATURES AT THE SAME TIME.

Let put what you said right next to that:
"A bloodline limit consists of multiple elements, but that does not mean that multiple elements is automatically a bloodline limit."

Do you see why that is obviously wrong? I hope so. Otherwise you fail at basic english, which is fair enough for a foreigner, but not for somebody accusing others of having poor reading comprehension.

I'll even help you out, and get rid of the ellipses in Kakashi's quote:

"The ability to use two elements simultaneously and create a new element to manipulate is called a bloodline limit." Yes, this DOES mean being able to use two elements simultaneously implies that the user has a bloodline limit. That is because of what "is" and "are" mean.

[Archangel]

That's more applicable to you. It's sad to see someone project their insecurities onto others. Unfortunately, they appear to be true about you.

BURNED!

( Actually: FAIL! )

[Sam98034]

Let put what you said right next to that:
"A bloodline limit consists of multiple elements, but that does not mean that multiple elements is automatically a bloodline limit."

That is technically true. Multiple elements *together* make a bloodline; being able to use multiple elements separately isn't. I think that's what he was getting at, so this is just a misunderstanding.

You are also correct in saying that *elements* outside the six are bloodlines. I don't think you two are reading each others statements very well. Maybe you guys are just reading what you want to read because you don't fancy each other so much. The reason you guys can argue is because you are both right. Neither of you contradict the other, you're talking about similar but different things.

Also, take note that Kakashi said "to create a new element." Would this not imply that if you use two elements together but do not create a new element, it's not a bloodline limit?

Lastly, I still don't see what element summoning is besides space/time, and I don't think summoning is a bloodline limit. However, it might be a bloodline simply because you made a blood pact with the animal and now your blood is technically what allows you to summon, but it's not an innate ability like most other bloodlines.


Yeah

Which makes you think, why would a rain ninja develop a jutsu that can't be used during the rain? O_o

She really likes origami...

[Yukimura]

@Sam abilities that require a bloodline limit to work and techniques that require a blood sacrifice to work aren't necessarily the same thing. As evidence the Fourth, a blood relative of Naruto, already had an entry on the the contract with the toads but Naruto still had to put his blood print on the scroll to make a connection with them. It hasn't been shown that there can't be summons that only a person with a specific bloodline limit could accomplish but from what has been shown it doesn't seem like it's a requirement in forming a contract in general.

Also, not all jutsu break down into an element or combination of elements. During Kakashi's explanation Naruto asked about the elemental natures of Shikamaru's shadow jutsu and medical jutsu and the jutsu that let Chouji change his size. Kishi explicitly avoided explaining these by having Yamato hint that there is also a Yin/Yang aspect to chakra which might explain these things but then shrug off getting into them as they were too complicated for Naruto who was just learning about elemental manipulation.

[Assertn]

Yeah

Which makes you think, why would a rain ninja develop a jutsu that can't be used during the rain? O_o
Maybe its a bloodline limit :)

[Sam98034]

@Sam abilities that require a bloodline limit to work and techniques that require a blood sacrifice to work aren't necessarily the same thing. As evidence the Fourth, a blood relative of Naruto, already had an entry on the the contract with the toads but Naruto still had to put his blood print on the scroll to make a connection with them. It hasn't been shown that there can't be summons that only a person with a specific bloodline limit could accomplish but from what has been shown it doesn't seem like it's a requirement in forming a contract in general.

Also, not all jutsu break down into an element or combination of elements. During Kakashi's explanation Naruto asked about the elemental natures of Shikamaru's shadow jutsu and medical jutsu and the jutsu that let Chouji change his size. Kishi explicitly avoided explaining these by having Yamato hint that there is also a Yin/Yang aspect to chakra which might explain these things but then shrug off getting into them as they were too complicated for Naruto who was just learning about elemental manipulation.


to quote myself: "...and I don't think summoning is a bloodline limit. However, it might be a bloodline simply..." So, yea, I agree with you. And, yes, there's more than just the 6 elements out there, so we'll have no clue what's what for sometime; that is, until Naruto needs to learn another new move.

[Sidnne]

What part of "The ability to use two elements simultaneously and create a new element to manipulate... that is what is called a kekkei genkai" is unclear to you? Kakashi is clearly saying that bloodline limits are THE ABILITY TO USE TWO CHAKRA NATURES AT THE SAME TIME.

Let put what you said right next to that:
"A bloodline limit consists of multiple elements, but that does not mean that multiple elements is automatically a bloodline limit."

Do you see why that is obviously wrong? I hope so. Otherwise you fail at basic english, which is fair enough for a foreigner, but not for somebody accusing others of having poor reading comprehension.

I'll even help you out, and get rid of the ellipses in Kakashi's quote:

"The ability to use two elements simultaneously and create a new element to manipulate is called a bloodline limit." Yes, this DOES mean being able to use two elements simultaneously implies that the user has a bloodline limit. That is because of what "is" and "are" mean.


Oh, for the love of...
You must be the world's greatest internet troll, because there's just no way anyone can truly be this stupid.

As I've said before, I know what Kakashi said about the chakra elements. I have read it and I have referenced it. There is no need for you to keep repeating it and using it as the basis of your argument, because I have never disputed what he said. You were the one who brought that up in the thread assuming that it somehow contradicts anything that I said, when it in fact supports what I said.

This was the original statement from Sam that I was responding to (again, as I've said, yet you continue to ignore): "btw, since Pain can use all 6 elements, he could theoretically have all the bloodline jutsus too right?"

I responded to that by saying (and I'll include the part that you decided to leave, since it is quite relevant), "A bloodline limit consists of multiple elements, but that does not mean that multiple elements is automatically a bloodline limit. In order for one to have a bloodline limit, it would have to be in his, well... bloodline."

Now, if you'd like, I can reword that to say "Just because Nagato has the ability to use all 6 elements, does not automatically mean that he can use all of the bloodline jutsus."

In other words: An orange is round, but that does not mean that all round things are oranges.

Do you follow so far?

The reason being is that it is not enough to qualify as a bloodline limit just to be able to use multiple elements. As you are so adamant to point out, it also requires combining them to form a new element, which at no point have I disputed.
But, as I also said, it is a part of their lineage (or bloodline), and I even linked the page where Kakashi explained that, but you seem to want to ignore that as well.

Is any of this making sense yet?

Therefore, based on that, it can be said that there are 3 aspects to a bloodline limit:
1. There must be multiple elements invloved.
2. They must be combined to form a "new" element
3. The ability to use and combine the elements to form that specific "new" element must be passed down from and limited to the character's bloodline.

I will go ahead and add a 4th aspect for the sake of argument by reiterating: It must also be explicitly stated and confirmed by the author to be a bloodline limit in order for all to accept it as such.

Got it?

I can't believe I had to go into this much of a breakdown on what was really a simple answer to a simple question simply because you failed to acknowledge the question or recognize the answer. Maybe if you would actually read what I say, without ignoring half of it, it would make more sense to you.

BTW: Hypothetical Question: Definition: A question asked out of interest, which does not require an answer, as the answer will have no effect on the situation.

[Sam98034]

Well, I think these replies were good enough for my inquiry. I guess we're a little more clear on bloodline limits now. I think what Yukimura brought up is more interesting, though. How do you guys think the yin/yang stuff works, then? We have chakra, elements, the sage thing, and now the yin/yang thing. If Kishi want's to be lazy, he can repeat the blue/red chakra concept but insert yin/yang in there and tell Naruto to use more yin or yang. It might have more to do with the sage thing, though, because you end up using the things around you.

[Archangel]

She really likes origami...

Then naruto's new ultimate jutsu is gonna be the ramengan -_-


Maybe its a bloodline limit :)

I believe we should discuss this further. How do another 2 pages of Internet rage sound?

[Sam98034]

Then naruto's new ultimate jutsu is gonna be the ramengan -_-


You asked a question and I did my best to answer it for you. And the thanks I get is some half-assed, sarcastic remark. Maybe if you paid attention to the Manga you would realize that she explained this to Jiraiya. She actually majored in Origamic Arts with a minor in Water Color Painting at the Rain Institute of Ninjitsu. But I bet that went over your head because you can't comprehend a word of English to save your life. How about you show people a little respect when they try to help you out, jackass. Don't take it out on me because your mom is overweight and very loose, and because you were picked on as a kid for being such a loser, and because no one would go with you to the prom.

I'ma justa keeeding

[Sidnne]

Don't worry about him, he just isn't used to being left out of the arguments so he felt the need to troll for attention.

[Sam98034]

Oh...what's that? Are you standing up for your boyfriend there? I'm sorry, I didn't know you two had a "thang"

[Sidnne]

No... I was actually speaking to YOU.

[shinta|hikari]

Hilarious how you got flamed by the person you were defending/consoling. Naruto threads are really the best.

[-=DS=-S.W.A.T3]

gah kids go play cs and blow up some heads>.>

edit: its like that quote "arguing over the internet is like playing in the special Olympics even if you win your still retarded"

but yea bloodlines are abilities that are inherited through certain families. Like if Haku were to survive and had an offspring chances are that offspring would be able to combine the two elements to make ice. its in the genes...

edit edit: or if you really want to get chewed out go to the gamefaqs boards...they don't play nice there...

[Sam98034]

I believe we should discuss this further. How do another 2 pages of Internet rage sound?

I don't know about you guys, but I was just going along with this. Am I wrong?

[Paper]

I took a break from gotwoot . . . . got caught up with a bunch of school work . . . after school work. . . nuff said im glad to see things are still the sameway. . . .point less. . . . . flameing.


I thought Kishi expain it pretty well..... and very frequently that a bloodline. . . consist of 2 elements at the same time. . . .i dont know whether it was mention throught out the thread but. . . its pretty simple example . . .haku needed 2 elements which consisted of water and wind elements to use ice also to use her ice mirror jutsu, she has a bloodline that cannot be copied hence pain. . . . which he acquire all 6 elements which given the power to use all elements but not. . . . . simontanstly hence the reason why he splits his power and never with the combination, another example the ataskui member forgot his name who can use all elements but not in a combination why because he did not have a bloodline to use those elements together…

its been along time forgive my puncuatly im watching the game as well. . . . .

[Sam98034]

hm...that's interesting. What's his face took people's hearts. With their hearts, is it possible to use their bloodline abilities? Actually, I don't think this one will ever be answered since he's dead now.

[Pandadice]

well it is possible to use bloodline limits through stealing someone's body part. just look at Kakashi.

[Abdula]

Yeah but that Bloodline limit was specific to the eye, and he got the eye after it was already activated, plus we all see the strain it puts on his body. Something like taking someone's eye is completely different from say Kakuzu stealing Hashirama's heart and then suddenly being able to use Mokuton or taking the heart of someone from the Kaguya clan and suddenly being able to manipulate his bones the way their bloodline limit allows them to.

Besides from all that was said it seems like the sharingan is a very unique bloodline limit, more so than most, and the eyes were meant to be transplanted in the first place.