Naruto Chapter 442

[Carnage]

Its out on onemanga:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/442/01/

[-=DS=-S.W.A.T3]

NOOO!!! god cliff hanger moment...but overall good chapter who would've thought pain would be subject to getting hit by a normal rasengan. props to naruto for throwing himelf at pein he truely thinks ahead now rather then making stuff up as he goes along.


on side note: hinata = hotness Who new she could have a hidden rack like anko?

edit: i wonder though if naruto sent a shadow clone to where nagato is at right now? idk maybe spy on him so he dosn't flee cause that would make epic use of his shadow clone once again

[Uchiha Barles]

NOOO!!! god cliff hanger moment...but overall good chapter who would've thought pain would be subject to getting hit by a normal rasengan. props to naruto for throwing himelf at pein he truely thinks ahead now rather then making stuff up as he goes along.


on side note: hinata = hotness

edit: i wonder though if naruto sent a shadow clone to where nagato is at right now? idk maybe spy on him so he dosn't flee cause that would make epic use of his shadow clone once again

Yup. With this chapter, I'm fairly confident a Naruto/Sakura romance is over and done with. It's too bad Naruto couldn't be there to see that.

Naruto: Hinata! Is she alright?!

Lee: Yeah, Sakura's healing her can't you see that?

Naruto: Who? Oh yeah, what's her name! Thanks, uh...Sakura!

And sage mode is one of the hugest hacks of all times. For Naruto to fight the fight we've seen, and defeat all of Nagato's combat bodies, and then walk way without a drop of sweat, or a even a dirty lapel is nuts. Like seriously, mass shadow clone being the LAST thing he does as if the fight had just begun, is nuts.

edit: Oh, here's example 2 of clones not getting owned outright by a single attack. I wonder why though. I'm going to guess that this shinra tensei is particularly weak because Nagato's running out of both chakra and stamina. Also, since there were so many clones, maybe the ones closer to the attack took the bulk of the damage, and the ones further away were kind of protected.

edit 2: Oh hell no...if this bitch Sakura skips out on the healing and lets Hinata die....

[rockmanj]

Hinata has always been busty (I'm totally not a creep). And there is nothing hidden about Anko's rack. She's always got her jacket open. But on a more serious note, that was a pretty ridiculous strategy...I mean to think that far ahead. Cool notion to actually throw himself though. And it looks like Sakura is a little jealous of ol Boobs McGee.

[-=DS=-S.W.A.T3]

Hinata has always been busty (I'm totally not a creep). And there is nothing hidden about Anko's rack. She's always got her jacket open. But on a more serious note, that was a pretty ridiculous strategy...I mean to think that far ahead. Cool notion to actually throw himself though. And it looks like Sakura is a little jealous of ol Boobs McGee.


lol be kinda sad if she was taking her life away instead of trying to heal her o.o

[Death BOO Z]

the mass clonning was a bit of a hack, especially after he said he can only create several clones in this fighting mode.
then again, it's alright, since he did a 'ja-jenken' trick and used the normal rasengan in the way we have been advocating for it to be used.

[Tyreal]

the mass clonning was a bit of a hack, especially after he said he can only create several clones in this fighting mode.

The only reason Naruto could only create two clones is because if he creates anymore it disrupts the one's 3 he left gathering chakara. Now that those three aren't gathering chakra anymore there is nothing stopping Naruto from creating mass shadow clones.

[concrete3337]

Even though I favor the Naruto+Hinata over the Naruto+Sakura it did seem like Sakura had a look of disappointment in her eyes when the thought is shown "Hinata... Loves... Naruto..." I'm getting the feeling that we might get a love confessions out of Sakura not to far down the road now that the guy she could have always had might be slipping away. Anybody else agree? disagree?

[unandpw]

I'm getting the feeling that we might get a love confessions out of Sakura not to far down the road now that the guy she could have always had might be slipping away. Anybody else agree? disagree?

Sakura's the protege of Tsunade...she'll become a spinster.

Besides, the Hyuuga are more respectable. What does Sakura have going for her? Pink hair???

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/9/94/Fuckyeahlz.gif

[concrete3337]

sorry whats is a spinster?

[RyougaZell]

Sakura's the protege of Tsunade...she'll become a spinster.

Besides, the Hyuuga are more respectable. What does Sakura have going for her? Pink hair???



As much as people may dislike Sakura... Kishimoto has build her as Naruto's love interest since day 1. And Hinata's appearances on this manga don't fill 1 volume. The only way Naruto will end up with Hinata is through fanfiction.


The chapter was very dull in my opinion.

Only interesting thing to mention is that Nagato is red-haired. I wasn't expecting that one. Maybe he will really end up being Kushina's brother as many old theories had mentioned. After all... the three of them... Nagato, Yahiko and Konan where from a destroyed village. A village destroyed by Konoha. Could it have been Whirpool?

[Pandadice]

so.. he nailed pain.. why does pain rely so much on his magnet ability? does this pain body really not know enough tai-jutsu to dodge naruto's attacks? or.. will it appear to be a clone or something next chapter and the fight will continue? meh, i don't think it will.

hopefully we'll get some closure on this fight pretty soon. it was definitely an amazing fight, but i'm super interested in the whole "Konoha just got flattened" story-line. plus we can get back to killer bee.

[shinta|hikari]

I think Sage mode Naruto is just too fast and too strong for normal taijutsu to work. The magnet ability is just as hax though, so he was just trying to beat fire with fire.

I hope Sakura confesses to Naruto and Naruto dumps her for Hinata. Yeah, I know its a dream, but a good dream nonetheless.

[alec_potter]

Thou i prefer naruto-sakura, I became a fan of Naruto after the start of Naruto Shippuden....I think Naruto will ultimately end up with Hinata in canon.

Onto the chapter I think it was pretty good...the use of his two main techniques to finally beat Pain was very good. I think this is the end of the fight...and the next chapter will be more of dialogue intensive between Naruto and the real Pain. Dunno what will be Konan's role in it.

What are your idea's on the next chapter?

Edit 1: I wonder what is going to be Danzo's next move?

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

Okay... that was a pretty amazing end to all this. I just hope that it IS actually the end.


Best fight of the manga. Just throwing that out there.

[darkshadow]

That was just badass, he finally used tajuu kage bunshin like mega effectively, then finishing off with a normal rasengan throw by his remaining bunshins. That was one heck of a plan.

[Assertn]

I still don't get his counter to Pain's repulsion. Did all the clones just...grab onto the original Naruto that was standing there, or what?

[Patriot]

I believe that's what happened. The clones all stood infront and behind him I think and braced him for the attack so he wouldn't go flying like Boss toad did. So he ended up enduring it and then laying the smackdown.

I for one am happy with this fight. It has all the elements of hack vs hack and my hack was defeated and now I'm deafing yours and while I'm at it, I'm going to own you.

Good chap.

[Archangel]

I still don't get his counter to Pain's repulsion. Did all the clones just...grab onto the original Naruto that was standing there, or what?

I think that the original naruto was one of the attackers, so after receiving the burst head on the ones who were standing behind him braced themselves so that he wouldn't lose distance to pain.

After that it was good old rasengan ownage

[poopdeville]

Why didn't Pein notice hundreds of rocks appearing around him?

[Archangel]

Why didn't Pein notice hundreds of rocks appearing around him?

I'm guessing they were set up while he was trying to avoid getting a rasenshruiken shoved up his ass

[Uchiha Barles]

Or while Pain's mini moon was crumbling.

[alec_potter]

I think when you have 2 rasenshruiken coming at you....you will ignore all your surroundings....awesome plan....

[rockmanj]

Why didn't Pein notice hundreds of rocks appearing around him?

Well, there was probably tons of rubble around there, since they were basically fighting in ruins; also. the pain "mini-moon, and the fact that Naruto just destroyed a large rock make it all seem very likely.

[Confused_Yamato]

Long time reader, first time poster... This thought has been running through my mind for weeks, and so I had to throw it out there... Yamato has to be running through the forest going "6 tails! 8 tails!! 9 TAILS!!! No tails?!? WTF!?!?!"

[FireEmblem]

There were hints before though of Sakura having some kind of feelings towards Naruto as well. I doesn't come right out, but the prospect of her actually LOVING Naruto wasn't so far-fetched at that point.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/297/11/

Badass chapter though! This is the Naruto that we were used to before! I think the problem was that Kishi (or his intern, hahaha) didn't find a way to put the fighting potential spotlight on other characters without making Naruto look useless. Granted, Naruto hadn't shown an inability to fight really, but an inability to control his emotions in front of some of his prior conflicts.

In the end, Yamato was right when he said "you're about to see a completely new Naruto" when he was up against Kakuzu.

[Sidnne]

I'm not sure why, but this chapter really didn't do much for me. I guess its because Pein was able to jump out of the way of the Rasenshuriken, so I don't see why he couldn't do the same for Naruto's launched rasengan.

A couple of thoughts though: Why doesn't Katsuyu tell the others where Nagato is so they can get to him while Naruto is fighting God Realm? And I hope that after this, Naruto starts wearing the 4th's cloak full time.

[poopdeville]

I'm not sure why, but this chapter really didn't do much for me. I guess its because Pein was able to jump out of the way of the Rasenshuriken, so I don't see why he couldn't do the same for Naruto's launched rasengan.


Naruto is better at taijutsu than Pein is. But Naruto was like 50-100 yards away when he threw the Rasenshuriken. He was too far to effectively follow up with another attack. He was within striking distance this time.

[Stitch]

lol wtf

At the end of all that, Pein gets done in by a Rasengan.

Unbelievable.

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

I'm not sure why, but this chapter really didn't do much for me. I guess its because Pein was able to jump out of the way of the Rasenshuriken, so I don't see why he couldn't do the same for Naruto's launched rasengan.

He just used two shinra tensei's back to back.... I'm sure if he hadn't just nuked Konoha, fought the Kyubi, AND fought a Sage mode Naruto, all consecutively, that wouldn't had mattered. But Nagato was already coughing up blood from pushing the limit like 2 chapters ago, so it wasn't too hard for me to believe YahikoPain was about out of breath after all that... looks like the battle of the Hax Gods goes to Naruto for his infinite stamina, and thanks to the 4th of course.

[Tyreal]

Why didn't Pein notice hundreds of rocks appearing around him?

Best guess is because Naruto had let off some Ransenshurikens, Pain himself had just used his ultimate gravity technique thing and the 9 tailed fox would of caused some damage as well. In a fight like that it probably didn't seem out of place much for the terrain to change as your fighting.

[Konohamaru!]

Completely the best fight in the Manga so far... The fact that he landed just a normal Rasengan isn't lame to me at all because it was done in what seemed like a more continuous action sequence instead of him building it up, talking about it or something else, and then going. I really hope they animate this fight well for the anime... I liked the struggle on Naruto's face when battling against the Shinra Tensei while being supported by his clones. The classic never say die attitude...

As for the whole love interest thing, I was a bigger fan of Sakura then Hinata for a long time, but now I'd be totally happy with either of them or even the priestess from demon country(from first Shippuden movie)... Lets face it... Naruto deserves some lovin after the shit he's done and been through... ;) Hah, though knowing Naruto, he probably wouldn't know what to do if any of the three approached him about it. lol

I could see the whole love interest thing going a number of ways, but I can't see them wanting to depict Hinata's heartbreak of not landing Naruto. Hinata has never done anything wrong, and her calm and shy nature is probably a better fit for Naruto as a love interest. I very much think Naruto and Sakura love eachother, but at this point it's probably much more of a brother/sister/bestfriend type thing.

I can see them not giving too much information and leaving it open for suspense, but in the end when Sasuke is reformed by Naruto and Sakura, he's going to need someone to be by his side to help him, and thats where Sakura's origional love for him will take off again. I think this mainly because now that Naruto knows Hinata loves him, he's not going to forget that and will probably look at Hinata in a completely new light, so I see him actually making Hinata his choice. They'll have to bring Hinata a bit more into the foreground and make her a bigger character, but I think they've just started to do so...

*hah* just had a surprise twist thought though... Very extreamly unlikely to happen, but what if Hinata wakes up and doesn't remember who she is or her feelings for Naruto. Speculate amongst yourselfs... lol

As for the remainder of the fight, I think we can count on some conversation between Naruto and Nagato, and it wouldn't suprize me for Nagato to have one final ace up his sleeve, but I'm more stumped as to what they'll try and do with Konan. She will obviously want to protect Nagato, but I sense that she loves him and almost would rather not fight if it meant saving his life. If it comes to a fight... aside from Naruto, I think Sakura and Neji are probably the most likely people to fight against Konan. Naruto has to see this battle to the very end in my opinion though...

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

Yeah I'm ready for anyone to help naruto out at this point.

And hopefully if yahiko-pain is done for now after all that we should probably see that. If he does meet up with sakura and them the first thing I'd do is tell gai to go find kakashi quick so sakura can save his life....

/tear

[Assertn]

Naruto threw 5 rasen-shurrikens and only one actually killed a pain body. That's kinda depressing

[shinta|hikari]

Yeah. Talk about flashy and ineffective...

[poopdeville]

How many wicked kage level moves did the Third use on Orochimaru? How many of them killed Orochimaru?

[Abdula]

Its a shame Nagato's body is in such bad condition though, I would have liked to see what he can do. I doubt this is the end of the rinnegan though, or I hope it isn't.

[ruccus]

So no one thinks that he could reject Hinata himself?
Way I see it happening, he wont say okay because he would feel guilty having a happy life over Sakura. In all honesty I dont care much for how this ends, cuz the manga's good once again.

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

Naruto threw 5 rasen-shurrikens and only one actually killed a pain body. That's kinda depressing

well there's your counter argument to whoever says Pain went down too easy. but youre right, he did throw those out way too uselessly

[Uchiha Barles]

No way those Rasenshirukens were used uselessly or thrown around in a haphazard manner. In fact, the very first one he threw was the one thrown with the least care. It's also the one that took out one of the bodies. Every other Rasenshiruken was thrown with a deception and a combination attack, with Naruto using the shirukens to force Pain into a trap where a less flashy technique would then be used to take him out. And it makes sense to do it that way, because it's kind of hard to hide the fact that you're getting ready to use that technique. Also, Pain just had 2 ways of dealing with the attack itself: absorb the attack, and repel the attack.

As far as the love interest thing is concerned, I seriously don't think Naruto'll end up with Sakura. The reason is, back at the beginning of the pre time-skip chase Sasuke arc, Naruto came to terms that Sasuke is the one that Sakura was interested in. Without Sakura giving Naruto to believe otherwise, he'd keep that conclusion in his head. And she hasn't given him reason to think otherwise. I mean, we've seen Naruto try and make passes on her after that in shippuuden, but nothing very serious occured. By that, I mean nothing happened between the two of them to overwrite the fact that Naruto came to the conclusion that Sakura's interest was in Sasuke. Hinata's revelation is going to give Naruto something to think about.

edit: and yes. Pain can't die yet. We need more information on the rinnegan. It'd suck if we didn't get it.

[poopdeville]

well there's your counter argument to whoever says Pain went down too easy. but youre right, he did throw those out way too uselessly

Jeez, what are you guys complaining about? Naruto only has three or four kage level jutsu, but he's smart and strong enough to string them together into an effective plan. He succeeded where Jiraiya failed -- indeed, the information Jiraiya gave Konoha was irrelevant to the fight against the Pein bodies.

Yes, it would be super sweet for Naruto/Konoha if the Rasenshuriken was an instantly-kill-anybody-no-matter-who-it-is move. But that would be really boring and even Konoha's best (the Third, the Fourth, Orochimaru (kind of), Itachi, and Jiraiya) don't have moves that good.

Heck, Naruto can grow clones to collect Sage chakra for him, and call on the Kyuubi for a moment to disrupt them, and collect it all. He can apparently summon shadow clones anywhere he wants, in any shape he wants. And if he really needs to, he can use Kyuubi chakra -- a giant Kyuubi Rasengan like the one Jiraiya used, but much much bigger, could work very well for Naruto if he can figure out how to tame the Kyuubi like Killabee did. Give him some time, and you'll see Naruto string lots more impressive kage level jutsu together, like the Third did against Orochimaru.

What more do you want from Naruto? Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, Majin Buu, Cell, Frieza, and potentially Madara or Sasuke or Mr. Satan (yeah right to the last three), are about the only people who could properly kick his ass at this point.

[Abdula]

He succeeded where Jiraiya failed -- indeed, the information Jiraiya gave Konoha was irrelevant to the fight against the Pein bodies..
Yeah I figured someone would be thoughtless enough to post something like that sooner or later. If not for Jiraiya not only would Naruto have lost this fight but Konoha would have been obliterated alot sooner too. I don't get why you don't see that.

[Patriot]

Actually, I think because of her lineage, Hinata will be forced to marry someone that the Hiyaga clan decides in order to thrawt a war. And at first the other guy will seem like a jerk but then will come out shinning stars and making Hinata like him for who he is. This is all the more required as Leaf will need their current allies to support them and in search of new allies create meaningful bonds.

That's my theory on that subject.

[poopdeville]

Yeah I figured someone would be thoughtless enough to post something like that sooner or later. If not for Jiraiya not only would Naruto have lost this fight but Konoha would have been obliterated alot sooner too. I don't get why you don't see that.

If you don't get why I don't see it, explain it better.

The way I see it, Jiraiya told Konoha that Nagato was controlling the bodies remotely. That didn't matter one bit to Naruto, who has been handily beating Pein's bodies down and has hardly paid any attention to Nagato. Hell, Jiraiya didn't even share the most vital piece of information about Pein's fighting capabilities -- that they share each other's vision. That is very much unlike other puppet jutsu.

I am not dismissing Jiraiya's contribution. The only reason Naruto thought to look for Nagato was because of the hint he was given. Nagato can now be dealt with, instead of being a recurring threat.

I also don't see why Konoha would have been destroyed "a lot sooner", considering that Pein showed up to Konoha "today" in the manga. Moreover, he was ordered to Konoha immediately after fighting Jiraiya. It's been about two weeks since Jiraiya died, in the manga.

[Assertn]

I wasn't arguing whether or not he used the shurikens effectively. I was arguing that his hyped-up move was repeatedly overshadowed by standard rasengans for pretty much the entire match.

[FireEmblem]

Actually, I think because of her lineage, Hinata will be forced to marry someone that the Hiyaga clan decides in order to thrawt a war. And at first the other guy will seem like a jerk but then will come out shinning stars and making Hinata like him for who he is. This is all the more required as Leaf will need their current allies to support them and in search of new allies create meaningful bonds.

That's my theory on that subject.

Remember when Naruto said he'd change the Hyuga when he became Hokage?

I do.

[Abdula]

I dread having to explain things

Anyway first of all, Naruto wasn't handily doing anything. The only reason Naruto seemed to have been overpowering Pain when he first showed up was because Pain was wiped from just having blown up the village I think that would have been clear by now. As soon as Pain recovered I remember him handily taking care of Naruto's sage mode.

IHell, Jiraiya didn't even share the most vital piece of information about Pein's fighting capabilities -- that they share each other's vision. That is very much unlike other puppet jutsu.
And you should check before you post things like that because Jiraiya or more specifically Fukasaku did tell them about their shared field of vision. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/422/09/


I am not dismissing Jiraiya's contribution. The only reason Naruto thought to look for Nagato was because of the hint he was given. Nagato can now be dealt with, instead of being a recurring threat.
Hint what hint are you talking about. Are you talking about when Katsuyu specifically tells Naruto that those bodies were just puppets and the real Pain was controlling them from somewhere nearby after Shikamaru and the others had figured it out or later when Pain confirmed it himself.

I also don't see why Konoha would have been destroyed "a lot sooner", considering that Pein showed up to Konoha "today" in the manga. Moreover, he was ordered to Konoha immediately after fighting Jiraiya. It's been about two weeks since Jiraiya died, in the manga.
2 weeks, huh, by my best estimation its been just a little over a week since Jiraiya died either way it doesn't make much of a difference. Anyway you got something wrong there, he was ordered to capture Naruto immediately before his battle with Jiraiya. As I recall he told Zetsu he was just on his way to Konoha when Jiraiya showed up. That is significant for two reasons, the obvious one being that it bought Konoha time. Not only did Jiraiya provide Konoha with a great deal of information on Pain but he delayed Pain's arrival because Pain needed to get a new body to replace the one Jiraiya took out. The second thing is sage mode, Naruto didn't have it then and if Jiraiya hadn't fought Pain and died Naruto wouldn't have it now and he certainly wouldn't have been able to defeat Pain without it. If Pain had attacked Konoha when he was first ordered to not only would it have been a slaughter but it would have been a complete loss on Konoha's part.

Every little bit of information they got about Pain led to his downfall. Whether it was Jiraiya's clues that eventually led to them figuring out that the bodies were all just puppets or Kakashi figuring out the short interval of time in which Pain couldn't use his powers, which was the immediate cause for his defeat. Everyone played their part. It took Jiraiya, Konoha, Naruto going 8 tails, and 2 stints in sage mode to defeat Pain and in the end it still seems like the only reason he lost was because he ran out of power

[Sidnne]

I dread having to explain things

I just try to ignore posts from certain people anymore. It's whats best for my sanity.

[poopdeville]

I dread having to explain things


Then don't be a patronizing little bitch.


Hint what hint are you talking about.


"The real one is not there"


And you should check before you post things like that because Jiraiya or more specifically Fukasaku did tell them about their shared field of vision. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/422/09/

That wasn't Jiraiya, was it? Whose information were we talking about? Jiraiya's? Or the Frog's? The only information Jiraiya gave was in his secret message to Konoha.


2 weeks, huh, by my best estimation its been just a little over a week since Jiraiya died either way it doesn't make much of a difference. Anyway you got something wrong there, he was ordered to capture Naruto immediately before his battle with Jiraiya. As I recall he told Zetsu he was just on his way to Konoha when Jiraiya showed up. That is significant for two reasons, the obvious one being that it bought Konoha time. Not only did Jiraiya provide Konoha with a great deal of information on Pain but he delayed Pain's arrival because Pain needed to get a new body to replace the one Jiraiya took out. The second thing is sage mode, Naruto didn't have it then and if Jiraiya hadn't fought Pain and died Naruto wouldn't have it now and he certainly wouldn't have been able to defeat Pain without it. If Pain had attacked Konoha when he was first ordered to not only would it have been a slaughter but it would have been a complete loss on Konoha's part.

It took Pein about 15 minutes to deal with Jiraiya. Pein already had a replacement for that body lined up. Remember the Rain Village chuunin Jiraiya captured? It looks like most of the delay in Pein's attack was due to needing to move his crippled ass around without people discovering his secret. Otherwise he could have attacked immediately, like Jiraiya did. The Rain Village borders the Land of Fire.

I think it's pretty retarded to praise Jiraiya for Naruto's use of Sage Mode. You might as well be praising Pein -- if Pein hadn't killed Jiraiya, Fukusaku wouldn't have offered to teach Naruto Sage mode, so he could get his revenge. Naruto had to train at it himself, with the frogs, without Jiraiya's help. If anything, praise Naruto and the Frog Master for pulling it off under impossible pressure. You are definitely reaching here.



Every little bit of information they got about Pain led to his downfall. Whether it was Jiraiya's clues that eventually led to them figuring out that the bodies were all just puppets or Kakashi figuring out the short interval of time in which Pain couldn't use his powers, which was the immediate cause for his defeat. Everyone played their part. It took Jiraiya, Konoha, Naruto going 8 tails, and 2 stints in sage mode to defeat Pain and in the end it still seems like the only reason he lost was because he ran out of power

Yes, that is how ninjas die. They run out of power in front of a stronger enemy.

[Abdula]

Well that was an exercise in futility.

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

That wasn't Jiraiya, was it? Whose information were we talking about? Jiraiya's? Or the Frog's? The only information Jiraiya gave was in his secret message to Konoha.



pretty sure frogs were only there because jiraiya was there.

[Pandadice]

Yeah I figured someone would be thoughtless enough to post something like that sooner or later. If not for Jiraiya not only would Naruto have lost this fight but Konoha would have been obliterated alot sooner too. I don't get why you don't see that.

If you don't get why I don't see it, explain it better.


okay, yeah, i'm with poopdevile. I don't get how Pain's not-really-being-there affected Naruto's plan of just killing all the clones and looking for the real one later? even though like Shika and a squad did that whole planning to find the real one thing, it didn't affect this at all. unless of course we find out next week that the rasengan hit a clone, and the clone's clone pops up and wipes out naruto and then shika and the squad take out the real one...

i don't understand how knowing that it's a clone affected their (naruto's) battle tactics. the shared vision? yeah. the interval in between magnetic bursts? yeah. those both affected the way he fought pain. but he never made any move to go after the real one. maybe it'll affect his feeling of victory after he kills the last clone and he thinks "awman, after all that it's still not over.. dang." I could kind of see how that could play in. but whatever.

oh, and yeah, sorry to ask the same question taht was asked at the top of the page. but


I dread having to explain things

Anyway first of all, Naruto wasn't handily doing anything. The only reason Naruto seemed to have been overpowering Pain when he first showed up was because Pain was wiped from just having blown up the village I think that would have been clear by now. As soon as Pain recovered I remember him handily taking care of Naruto's sage mode.

And you should check before you post things like that because Jiraiya or more specifically Fukasaku did tell them about their shared field of vision. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/422/09/

Hint what hint are you talking about. Are you talking about when Katsuyu specifically tells Naruto that those bodies were just puppets and the real Pain was controlling them from somewhere nearby after Shikamaru and the others had figured it out or later when Pain confirmed it himself.

2 weeks, huh, by my best estimation its been just a little over a week since Jiraiya died either way it doesn't make much of a difference. Anyway you got something wrong there, he was ordered to capture Naruto immediately before his battle with Jiraiya. As I recall he told Zetsu he was just on his way to Konoha when Jiraiya showed up. That is significant for two reasons, the obvious one being that it bought Konoha time. Not only did Jiraiya provide Konoha with a great deal of information on Pain but he delayed Pain's arrival because Pain needed to get a new body to replace the one Jiraiya took out. The second thing is sage mode, Naruto didn't have it then and if Jiraiya hadn't fought Pain and died Naruto wouldn't have it now and he certainly wouldn't have been able to defeat Pain without it. If Pain had attacked Konoha when he was first ordered to not only would it have been a slaughter but it would have been a complete loss on Konoha's part.

Every little bit of information they got about Pain led to his downfall. Whether it was Jiraiya's clues that eventually led to them figuring out that the bodies were all just puppets or Kakashi figuring out the short interval of time in which Pain couldn't use his powers, which was the immediate cause for his defeat. Everyone played their part. It took Jiraiya, Konoha, Naruto going 8 tails, and 2 stints in sage mode to defeat Pain and in the end it still seems like the only reason he lost was because he ran out of power

^that post doesn't say anything othe than nit-pick at irrelevant mis-wordings.

[joker-kun]

^that post doesn't say anything othe than nit-pick at irrelevant mis-wordings.

^That post really says nothing useful at all.

Oh, and this post says nothing useful either. Amusing.

Anyways, to point out one thing Abdula said, Naruto was already late arriving when he did, so even if Jiraiya only bought 15 minutes (that can be disputed quite a bit) it was still crucial. Not to mention his death brough about a small, but in my opinion, significant back story (Naruto's mom and dad, the whole novel thing, the fact that his death has played a very large role in Naruto's "resolve").

A completely off-topic, irrelevant, and possibly useless point: I understand Abdula isn't very liked, heck we have even bumped heads a few times, but i've got to say it's getting horribly redundant and boring to constantly see how most forum posters dislike him. To be honest he's one of the few people to actually offer well argued and thought out arguments, so maybe a few forum members should drop their man-crush and focuss on actually writing something worth while to read?

[Pandadice]

^That post really says nothing useful at all.

Oh, and this post says nothing useful either. Amusing.

Anyways, to point out one thing Abdula said, Naruto was already late arriving when he did, so even if Jiraiya only bought 15 minutes (that can be disputed quite a bit) it was still crucial. Not to mention his death brough about a small, but in my opinion, significant back story (Naruto's mom and dad, the whole novel thing, the fact that his death has played a very large role in Naruto's "resolve").

A completely off-topic, irrelevant, and possibly useless point: I understand Abdula isn't very liked, heck we have even bumped heads a few times, but i've got to say it's getting horribly redundant and boring to constantly see how most forum posters dislike him. To be honest he's one of the few people to actually offer well argued and thought out arguments, so maybe a few forum members should drop their man-crush and focuss on actually writing something worth while to read?

uh yeah.. my post doesn't say anything useful because i was more asking him to explain (what he says should be obvious) how Jaraiya's message that the real Pain isn't there and the one's they're fighting are puppets, affected the outcome of this fight? the frogs gave konoha a ton of info on pain, about the different abilities, the shared vision, all that stuff. and yeah, that really helped. that's how they won. but i just don't see how knowing the fact that they're all clones affected their tactics, or the outcome.

I'm not saying that Jaraiya's death wasn't crucial, or unnecessary. it was significant indeed.

and uh (continuing off-topic), I have no problem with Abdula, and yeah, it is super annoying when in ever chapter topic the first time he posts everyone has to respond like "uggg, here he comes. so much for having a nice topic" and it feels like everyone seems compelled to argue him, and just be stupid. Yeah, he does seem to like to argue, but I don't know about the "well thought out arguments".

if they were "well thought out arguments" then when poopdeville bluntly asked him to simply explain how knowing that they're all clones, and the real one isn't there affected Naruto's fighting tactics, he would have simply answered him. Poopdeville wasn't arguing, he asked a simple question (a request for a better explanation), explained where he was coming from, and the way he was looking at it.

Abdula responded by breaking up his post, picking out every other line where there was something that wasn't 100% accurate or 100% literal, and smugly acting like he's superior by correcting them all, (far be it for there to be any sense of hyperbole or mis-wordings in this thread.) while forgetting to actually answer the simply asked question. there was no need to argue that post, if it was so obvious and simple, he should have just explained it, and then we could all say "ohh, that's an interesting point. i sure didn't think about it that way". no, now we're all nit-picking every little irrelevant mistake trying to put ourselves 1 paragraph above another forum user.

[Sidnne]

Abdula responded by breaking up his post, picking out every other line where there was something that wasn't 100% accurate or 100% literal, and smugly acting like he's superior by correcting them all, (far be it for there to be any sense of hyperbole or mis-wordings in this thread.) while forgetting to actually answer the simply asked question. there was no need to argue that post, if it was so obvious and simple, he should have just explained it, and then we could all say "ohh, that's an interesting point. i sure didn't think about it that way". no, now we're all nit-picking every little irrelevant mistake trying to put ourselves 1 paragraph above another forum user.

That is generally how debating on a forum is done. You don't respond to a whole block of text with another block of text; you break each point down individually and counter individually. It's not "nit-picking," it's the typical format for presenting an argument, and poopdeville used the same method in his posts, as do most people.

When it is done in this way, it is less likely that portions of your post will be skipped over and points missed. It also avoids any confusion as to what exactly one of your points is in response to.


I also think Abdula explained it pretty well in that section you claimed doesn't say anything. Maybe you should try reading it a few more times.

[Abdula]

*sigh*


That wasn't Jiraiya, was it? Whose information were we talking about? Jiraiya's? Or the Frog's? The only information Jiraiya gave was in his secret message to Konoha.
Pandadice, I think the only reason you and Poopdeville don't understand what I posted is because, for some reason, you two are differentiating between the information Jiraiya gathered and the information the toads gave to Konoha and there is no difference. Jiraiya didn't just send the code, he gave Konoha one of Pain's bodies to examine, sent them a live rain nin to interrogate and then had the toads relay all the other information he had gathered about Pain. So while the toads may have been the ones who actually delivered the information, the credit still goes back to Jiraiya because they would have had nothing to deliver if not for him.

[Archangel]

Naruto threw 5 rasen-shurrikens and only one actually killed a pain body. That's kinda depressing


Yeah. Talk about flashy and ineffective...

I'm sorry but that's just complaining for the sake of complaining

Not one of the rasenshurikens thrown were useless, every single one was either an attack or bait to redirect pain's attention from a less flashy but still very effective attack that would eventually take out one of his bodies

If all the bodies had been killed using that jutsu you'd be complaining on how naruto always used the same move or how his style of fighting was as retarded as ever...

[FireEmblem]

Rasenshuriken is Naruto's "omfg I can't get hit by that" jutsu. Every good ninja needs one. Just like any kind of battle, you need to apply pressure in some way or another and the Rasenshuriken does that. The thing that is dangerous about the Rasenshuriken is actually the fact that Naruto DID throw 5 of them lol. The fact that he can use his ace jutsu so many times is really freaking scary. And the fact that the technique right under Rasenshuriken is actually a good finishing move too (Rasengan) means that just because you dodged Rasenshuriken, it doesn't mean things will get easier. That is truely an ace jutsu.

[Pandadice]

That is generally how debating on a forum is done. You don't respond to a whole block of text with another block of text; you break each point down individually and counter individually. It's not "nit-picking," it's the typical format for presenting an argument, and poopdeville used the same method in his posts, as do most people.

When it is done in this way, it is less likely that portions of your post will be skipped over and points missed. It also avoids any confusion as to what exactly one of your points is in response to.


I also think Abdula explained it pretty well in that section you claimed doesn't say anything. Maybe you should try reading it a few more times.

lol, trust me, I've been on enough forums to know how "debating" is carried out on them.

I was not referring to the format he used as "nit-picking". in stead it was things like this


Hint what hint are you talking about. Are you talking about when Katsuyu specifically tells Naruto that those bodies were just puppets and the real Pain was controlling them from somewhere nearby after Shikamaru and the others had figured it out or later when Pain confirmed it himself.

where Poopdeville dropped the word "hint" and he felt the need to bring that out as it's own separate point to argue and prove Poopdeville wrong. That, that right there, calling out the usage of the word "hint" all because he said they gave Naruto a hint in stead of using "specifically", or "bluntly" telling him, Abdula feels the need to argue it. that's what I'm referring to as "nit-picking mis-wordings".

and in case you didn't red my last post, one of the biggest problems I have with his post is the fact that he did feel the need to respond to it in "standard forum debating format". like I said, there wasn't any need to argue Poopdeville's post. a simple explanation was all he wanted.

the last two paragraphs in his post were the only place he even mentioned jaraiya's fight (wait, other than the first mention of the hint/specific information or whatever. it was the only useful place)


2 weeks, huh, by my best estimation its been just a little over a week since Jiraiya died either way it doesn't make much of a difference.

okay, differences in time estimation, no big deal.


Anyway you got something wrong there, he was ordered to capture Naruto immediately before his battle with Jiraiya. As I recall he told Zetsu he was just on his way to Konoha when Jiraiya showed up.

oh, he said immediately "after" in stead of "before" no big deal, a simple mis-wording.



That is significant for two reasons, the obvious one being that it bought Konoha time. Not only did Jiraiya provide Konoha with a great deal of information on Pain but he delayed Pain's arrival because Pain needed to get a new body to replace the one Jiraiya took out. The second thing is sage mode, Naruto didn't have it then and if Jiraiya hadn't fought Pain and died Naruto wouldn't have it now and he certainly wouldn't have been able to defeat Pain without it. If Pain had attacked Konoha when he was first ordered to not only would it have been a slaughter but it would have been a complete loss on Konoha's part.

yeah, I know that Jiraiya's death was very significant, and definitely not a waste. no one's making that argument. we all know that Konoha would be a ton worse off if Jiraiya hadn't died.


Every little bit of information they got about Pain led to his downfall. Whether it was Jiraiya's clues that eventually led to them figuring out that the bodies were all just puppets or Kakashi figuring out the short interval of time in which Pain couldn't use his powers, which was the immediate cause for his defeat. Everyone played their part. It took Jiraiya, Konoha, Naruto going 8 tails, and 2 stints in sage mode to defeat Pain and in the end it still seems like the only reason he lost was because he ran out of power

okay, yeah, most of that stuff is very true. the intervals, the shared vision, any information about the bodies. however this


Whether it was Jiraiya's clues that eventually led to them figuring out that the bodies were all just puppets

i don't get it. all the other information i can plainly see. I just don't see how this, Jiraiya's last message which he wrote down with the last bit of strength, affected Naruto's tactics for taking out Pain. I can see and understand every other piece of information's place, just not this one. it'll affect it by them being sure to send out a squad to take care of the real one, yeah, so it'll affect Pain's survival. but whether or not the real one was there, i don't think Naruto would've handled it differently.



*sigh*

Pandadice, I think the only reason you and Poopdeville don't understand what I posted is because, for some reason, you two are differentiating between the information Jiraiya gathered and the information the toads gave to Konoha and there is no difference. Jiraiya didn't just send the code, he gave Konoha one of Pain's bodies to examine, sent them a live rain nin to interrogate and then had the toads relay all the other information he had gathered about Pain. So while the toads may have been the ones who actually delivered the information, the credit still goes back to Jiraiya because they would have had nothing to deliver if not for him.

okay, yeah, Jiraiya did a ton of stuff, most of which lead to Pain's downfall.

but the point me and poopdeville don't see, is how the very last message Jiraiya sent, the thing he poured the last bit of strength into, the note "the real one isn't there", affected the way Naruto took them out. Naruto didn't strategically try to find the real one and by-pass the clones. that's the kind of tactic you'd expect since he did have the information afterall. no, in stead he just powered through them, and yeah he probably had it so easily since Pain's full power had been diminished a minute (rough time example! not to be taking literally as exactly 1 minute or 60 second in the naruto universe) beforehand. but regardless, Naruto took on each clone as though it was a real ninja. he took them out exactly like he would've if they were all real ninja with those abilities.

the shared vision was a super critical point, and Naruto definitely applied a tactic against that. the real one isn't there? nah, don't see how that mattered to him.


So while the toads may have been the ones who actually delivered the information, the credit still goes back to Jiraiya because they would have had nothing to deliver if not for him.

i disagree with that, because the code was sketched into the toads back. all the other information was more the toads going "oh yeah, when we were fighting them they like.. did this stuff". that's the info from the toads. the toads relied on their own observations, intel gatherings, and memory, to give them all the information on Pain. the only information that jiraiya 100% guaranteed konoha was the message "the real one isn't there" (well, maybe the captured nin too.).

[Sidnne]

oh, he said immediately "after" in stead of "before" no big deal, a simple mis-wording.

There's actually a pretty big difference between "after" and "before". In fact, they're sort of opposites...

It's more than a simple "mis-wording", its a pretty important observation to note when regarding the time frame and the impact of Jiraiya's fight with Pein in terms of buying Konoha time.


i disagree with that, because the code was sketched into the toads back. all the other information was more the toads going "oh yeah, when we were fighting them they like.. did this stuff". that's the info from the toads. the toads relied on their own observations, intel gatherings, and memory, to give them all the information on Pain. the only information that jiraiya 100% guaranteed konoha was the message "the real one isn't there" (well, maybe the captured nin too.).

The toads were fighting Pein? Jiraiya had nothing to do with that?

They got their "observations, intel gatherings, and memory" by watching Jiraiya fight Pein.

Think a little before you post. If anyone is "nit-picking" here, it's you. So much so that while you're busy doing that, you're completely missing the explanation that you claim to be in search of.

[Pandadice]

There's actually a pretty big difference between "after" and "before". In fact, they're sort of opposites...

It's more than a simple "mis-wording", its a pretty important observation to note when regarding the time frame and the impact of Jiraiya's fight with Pein in terms of buying Konoha time.



The toads were fighting Pein? Jiraiya had nothing to do with that?

They got their "observations, intel gatherings, and memory" by watching Jiraiya fight Pein.

Think a little before you post. If anyone is "nit-picking" here, it's you. So much so that while you're busy doing that, you're completely missing the explanation that you claim to be in search of.

okay, if it's so simple. if it's actually in the posts. if it's already all been explained, and i'm just reading over it, missing it entirely, then please, please just quote it, put it in bold, i don't care. just plainly show me where it is, and i'll read it. if it's in the chapters, please link me to a page, and i will read it. i don't care. you all seem to get how Naruto's knowledge that he's fighting clones made him use different tactics than if he didn't know, but I don't.

I'm not asking for people to differentiate between the frogs or jiraiya, it doesn't matter and is completely irrelevant to what i'm asking whether or not jiraiya or the frogs told them about the vision, or the abilities, or the bodies or whatever.

all i'm interested in is someone simply explaining how the message "the real one isn't there" affected Naruto's battle tactics. if you can just link me to a page in a chapter, that would be fine. that is all i've been interested in since the start.

much obliged.

[FireEmblem]

Well, I don't know if it was mentioned in the on-going argument, but without Jiraiya's sacrifice/information, to Konoha/Naruto, Pain wouldn't have been perceived as what he is right now. Instead of it being 6 "bodies" with 1 specific ability each, it'd be 6 Akatsuki's attacking Konoha. That completely changes the game, strategically.

Knowing that each Pain can only do one thing is a huge strategic advantage. Would they have figured that out eventually? Probably. But Konoha has managed to dodge complete annihilation by having this information BEFORE the attack started.

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

but the point me and poopdeville don't see, is how the very last message Jiraiya sent, the thing he poured the last bit of strength into, the note "the real one isn't there", affected the way Naruto took them out. Naruto didn't strategically try to find the real one and by-pass the clones. that's the kind of tactic you'd expect since he did have the information afterall. no, in stead he just powered through them, and yeah he probably had it so easily since Pain's full power had been diminished a minute (rough time example! not to be taking literally as exactly 1 minute or 60 second in the naruto universe) beforehand. but regardless, Naruto took on each clone as though it was a real ninja. he took them out exactly like he would've if they were all real ninja with those abilities.


No. He took them on as ONE ninja. Because thats what Pain is. Because thats what Jiraiya told them. Its not that he wanted to fight through the Pain crew, he kinda had to. Its just that they took a little time putting all the info together to figure out how Pain works, which is probably why you got confused with it all.

[poopdeville]

Let's not forget that Jiraiya could have run away to fight another day -- accomplishing most of the goals Abdula was "correcting" me about -- but decided to sacrifice himself to get Pein's secret, which he wrote on Pa's back.

I never said Jiraiya's mission was worthless. But his sacrifice was, because the intentions he stated turned out to be irrelevant in Naruto's fight against Pein.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/381/10/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/381/11/

[rawez]

Some people seem to be harping on Jiraiya's message being worthless, or not used, or not effecting the fight. Without his message about the real one not being there, would naruto or any of the konoha ninjas even consider the thought that there's a real pein out in the mountains controlling the other bodies. Probably not. They'd fight the 6 bodies, knowing that each had 1 ability, they had shared vision, there's a delay between god realms ability, but after all 6 were destroyed they'd think they had won and that pein was dead.

Jiraiya's message changed the fight in so much as that they would know killing the 6 bodies isn't enough.

[Patriot]

He realized that the "real one was not with them" when one of the Pein's bodies ran head into his shield and was killed. At that point, he also came to the realization that he would not just be able to get up and run away. But I dispute that theory due to the revalation of reverse summoning.

I love this debate and both sides have great points. I actually see the logic that both sides are following. Great debaters on both sides.

[Sidnne]

all i'm interested in is someone simply explaining how the message "the real one isn't there" affected Naruto's battle tactics. if you can just link me to a page in a chapter, that would be fine. that is all i've been interested in since the start.


http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/441/13/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/441/14/

There ya go.

If he hadn't known that the real one wasn't with them, he would have been fighting Pein as 6 different ninja, not realizing that they were all puppets controlled by the someone who isn't present.
Now then, without Konoha having the knowledge of the message of the real one not being with them, they would never have been trying to find information about Pein's identity from the capture rain nin or from the dead body. This: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/436/04/ would not have happened.

And after this: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/442/17/ they would have assumed that Pein was completely finished and left Nagato free to create more bodies and attack again later. But having the information allows them to go after Nagato to finish him off once and for all.

To sum it up, the "battle tactics" that are derived from the information are "I need to clear these puppets out my way first, then go after the end boss." Instead of "I've got to stop these 6 guys."

[Pandadice]

okay, that's good enough for me. with the knowledge that it's a puppet-like jutsu, that means they'll look for the real pain. i hope the real one doesn't go down too easily, though with that frail looking body i don't expect much.

[Narasho]

Let's not forget that Jiraiya could have run away to fight another day -- accomplishing most of the goals Abdula was "correcting" me about -- but decided to sacrifice himself to get Pein's secret, which he wrote on Pa's back.

I never said Jiraiya's mission was worthless. But his sacrifice was, because the intentions he stated turned out to be irrelevant in Naruto's fight against Pein.



Pein isn't defeated yet. Do you think Kishi won't go back to the code written on the Frog's back, after setting it up like that? I really find that hard to believe. Shikamaru will solve it, and it will do something to aid their cause. I just can't see the author setting Jiraiya to die thinking he had discovered the secret, and then having it end up being nothing at all.

[Assertn]

Also, thanks to Jiraiya's recon, Naruto knew to cover the fat pain's eyes so he could drop a rasengan down on the respawner pain without them expecting it.

[iMUSTbeTHEdevil]

Pein isn't defeated yet. Do you think Kishi won't go back to the code written on the Frog's back, after setting it up like that? I really find that hard to believe. Shikamaru will solve it, and it will do something to aid their cause. I just can't see the author setting Jiraiya to die thinking he had discovered the secret, and then having it end up being nothing at all.

Umm, they already did solve it. They know that the real one is not with them. Naruto asked to talk to the real person in this very chapter. A few chapters back, Shika and his crew when looking for Nagato as well. So I would say that the cat is out of the bag.