Toaru Majutsu Index: Touma's Power

[Munsu]

Interested in hearing theories about what exactly Touma's power is, what potential uses it has, the extent of the power, the nature of the power, etc.

We all know that it negates magic and esper abilities. It also even negates his own luck, which makes you wonder what exactly 'luck' is... is it magic?

Also, is it important to put emphasis on the word 'negates'? I mean, I don't think we've seen it explained as something that nullifies. 'Negates' gives a notion that his power simply removes something from existance, while 'nullifies' gives the notion that it's a power that applies the same type of force as of that in which it is acting upon, hence the spell or whatever becomes ineffective.

So what are the extent of his powers? Does simply grabbing someone with his hand prevent that person from using his powers or casting spells? We saw the teleportation chick and couldn't teleport Touma while grabbing him. Important to notice that she didn't grab Touma's right hand, so this example might not be representative of possible uses for Touma's powers, but it's a starting point. We also remember when Index was dying and needed to be revived that Touma was forced to wait outside since his pressence alone would affect the spell... something to consider.

Also, would a projectile that has been shot magically harm his hand? For example, when Mikoto shoots a coin using electricity towards him, if he had put his hand up would it had pierced it? For some reason I think that if he were to touch the coin, the coin would lose all it's momentum... since the force that theoretically was driving it forward (the magic/abilities) is negated, so it might return to its original stationary state. Might not be probable, but I think it would be quite cool that way.

We saw a preview of it with the alchemist, how he negated the magic bullets and the falling car. But then again, they were just that... magic.

I think that's all I have at the moment, feel free to add, theorize, challenge.

[Ryllharu]

The difference between the magic bullets and Mikoto's coins or Accelerators I-beams is in what they are comprised of.

Mikoto or Accelerator alter the reality of the forces around the coin or beams, but not the actual objects themselves. The dropped car on the other hand, was spontaneously created and is a construct of altered reality. That's why Touma would be able to block it. At the same time though, his arm was chopped off. That particular one doesn't follow the same reasoning.

Well....magic aside (I'm starting to believe my assumptions that ESP and magic are accomplished in a equivalent way are incorrect), I don't think Touma can stop any projectiles powered by ESP. He seems to know this as well, and avoids them accordingly.

He could certainly cancel out the electromagnetic forces that generate the momentum to railgun a coin, but once Mikoto is done with that, the momentum of the coin would be a part of the true reality. Her power doesn't encompass momentum the same way Accelerator's does, so he shouldn't be able to cancel that out. It isn't like he can undo what has already been done, a damaged building is a still a damaged building.

There is a different set of rules with Accelerator. If his power is accomplished instantaneously, it would be the same as Mikoto's railgun, Touma can't block it. However, if Accelerator governs the object after he's tossed it, Touma would be able to stop it. But Accelerator described his power as the instantaneous change in vectors and momentum. So Touma can't stop what has already been tossed, just prevent Accelerator from doing anything. Touma probably knows this, and dodges accordingly. Accelerator's power covers his entire skin, so if Touma grabs onto him, Accelerator would become a powerless, normal person.


While I think that Touma's arm reintroduces uncertainty to the "certain" altered reality of Espers, how his arm accomplishes the negation of magic must be something different. He has not had the same consistent experiences with cancelling magic. There is almost an area of effect around his arm, rather than point-to-point. He seemed most inconsistent with Kanzaki. Her powers were a mix of physical attacks and magic-powered tricks (the tatami mats against Index). Touma was weak to a lot of that. The same goes for the feathers, he cancelled out what created them, but unlike the heat that Stiyl's fire creates, Touma couldn't stop the feather from wiping out his memories when it touched his head.

Perhaps his power against magic is a more conscious effort.

[Kraco]

Also, would a projectile that has been shot magically harm his hand? For example, when Mikoto shoots a coin using electricity towards him, if he had put his hand up would it had pierced it? For some reason I think that if he were to touch the coin, the coin would lose all it's momentum... since the force that theoretically was driving it forward (the magic/abilities) is negated, so it might return to its original stationary state. Might not be probable, but I think it would be quite cool that way.

I was actually going to write the same thing in the series thread, but realised that speed as such does not require any energy input. Only acceleration/deceleration requires energy. Momentum is static (conservation of momentum). So, however an object gains its speed, the speed is ultimately a physical attribute that has got nothing to do with magic anymore and thus is nothing Touma's power can remove. You could say the acceleration is separated from the deceleration in that sense.

However, I still can't accept any fancy explanations how he can negate energy just like that. I simply can't see such a difference between matter and energy as the manga author apparently can. Both are physical properties of this world. For magic (or ESP functions) to have any effect on a human, it should somehow affect this reality, either by creating matter or energy interaction (the magic is converted into energy, like heat or it changes the state of matter directly). Otherwise magic shouldn't have any effect whatsoever on Touma or anybody or anything else. So, somewhere along the way Touma only negates the magic converted into energy but fails to do anything about the magic affecting matter.

[Munsu]

Let me put it this way. We know those are moving matter, but are we assuming that once those objects are in motion that no magical force or ability is still being acted upon them? What if the object is moving solely because of this power and continues to do so even after the initial force is applied... wouldn't that be a possibility of how things work in this world? I would think if that's the case, that Touma should be able to stop the projectiles with his hand.

[Kraco]

The problem with that theory is that a moving object does not need any force to keep moving (ballistic flightpath). Even if there was some force giving it energy, to compete with gravity and air friction or further accelerating it, removing that force would make the projectile hardly any less dangerous. As long as we are talking about objects with enough kinetic energy and/or mass to be dangerous in the first place.

[Nadouku]

It also even negates his own luck, which makes you wonder what exactly 'luck' is... is it magic?

Index said in episode one that "as long as his right hand keeps in contact with air, he'll keep encountering misfortunes." I wonder what that really means?


So what are the extent of his powers? Does simply grabbing someone with his hand prevent that person from using his powers or casting spells? We saw the teleportation chick and couldn't teleport Touma while grabbing him. Important to notice that she didn't grab Touma's right hand, so this example might not be representative of possible uses for Touma's powers, but it's a starting point. We also remember when Index was dying and needed to be revived that Touma was forced to wait outside since his pressence alone would affect the spell... something to consider.

Also, against the battle with the Alchemist, even after slicing off his right arm, his powers were still working. My guess is that his right hand acts as an aura, and Kuroko couldn't teleport him, but that totally negates my guess when Mikoto seemingly damages him with electricity.


Also, would a projectile that has been shot magically harm his hand?.

In episode six, Index's Dragon Breath seem like it hurt Touma's right hand, after hearing that crunching sound and some blood spilling from it. I guess his right hand can only negate certain levels of magics and higher magics can somehow damage him, as Dragon's Breath was a very powerful spell. Feather of Light, even though it's potentially magic, still destroyed Touma's memories, even though he dispelled it's remaining effects with his right hand.

Projectile-wise, anything magically powered would probably be negated, depending on the level of magic casted on it. In Accelerator's case, Touma was just scared that he couldn't do much but run around, so we didn't get to see much other than "slap his hand away."

[Munsu]

Moved off-topic posts to the appropiate thread
http://forums.gotwoot.net/showthread.php?t=16790

[Ryllharu]

I thought I was crazy there for a second...but the posts got moved. (I even edited the post over there because I thought I had lost it for a minute).


I guess his right hand can only negate certain levels of magics and higher magics can somehow damage him, as Dragon's Breath was a very powerful spell. Feather of Light, even though it's potentially magic, still destroyed Touma's memories, even though he dispelled it's remaining effects with his right hand.
I thought that Touma (confirmed by the doctor) didn't dispell anything about hte Feather of Light. It had already done all the damage it was going to do.

I thought that the reason Dragon's Breath was destroying his hand wasn't because it was powerful, but because of the sustained attack. It's the same reason Touma wasn't able to destroy Stiyl's summoned firebeast, it continually renewed itself. It is like Touma has a set rate that he can "readjust" the effects of ESP and magic. Magic has more sustained attacks or prolonged castings so it seems to be harder for him to deal with. Perhaps the reason Index's Automatic Recovery ordered him out wasn't that he creates an aura around his fist, but that at some point during the sustained casting, he would negate a small (but vitally integral) part of it, like when Loli-sensei failed to imagine the angel and the effect fizzled out.

ESP on the other hand, is a lot of instantanous effects, so Touma just swats them aside with ease.

[Nadouku]

So basically, anything that is sustained cannot be dispelled so easily, since it recreates itself, assuming that Touma's right hand has an interval rate of dispelling a magical particle.

But the right hand itself does not act as a protective agent, right? We've seen instances where his right hand got bloodied, like destroying Index's magical seal in her mouth.

[Ryllharu]

Personally, I thought that blood was from Index, or at least symbolic of the sigil inside her mouth.

[Munsu]

Well updating from the latest episode 14...

We saw Touma constantly punching Accelerator while Accelarator was completely at full speed using his vectors. Of course, it's not a piercing attack, but Touma's hand didn't seem to be damaged at all from what I could see so maybe there's some truth to my above theory. It could always be something that the story didn't consider, but I think it's worth noting.

[Kraco]

Actually Touma should have also been able to hit Accelerator with a bar of metal or a knife. Any vector change Accelerator would have applied on one end of the item would have been nullified by Touma instantly on the other end, and since it's one solid object, it would be impossible for one end to have acceleration with the other end being unaffected, resulting in the whole thing having no acceleration (other than the original from Touma's swing or slash).

[Ryllharu]

Touma's power is still pretty inconsistent. He can stop Accelerator's propelled body, but cannot stop conjured knives or other projectiles? I still think he can only stop what hasn't already been "completed." If the Esper or mage is still interacting with whatever it is Touma is attempting to cancel, then he can still effect it. That would explain why he was able to hit back Accelerator, since Accelerator was still controlling his own propelled body. Most of the fight was simply Touma cancelling out Accelerator's automatic defense, something he clearly relied upon so much that he couldn't even imagine someone getting past it.

Then again, my theory is out the window because if Touma can't affect what's already been done, he should have been able to cancel out the alchemist's blade that severed his arm as easily as he destroyed the conjured car that was dropped on him.

[Munsu]

But again, an arm and a hand is not the same thing so that a blade cut off his arm is of no consequence to Touma's power because if Touma had put his hand up he would've probably stopped the magic blade.

[Nadouku]

I wonder if his Imagine Breaker also gives him a boost in physical strength? Touma does seem like the type that would get into fights, but his personality conflicts with that, seeing him more of a hero than a delinquent.

[Buffalobiian]

Touma's power is still pretty inconsistent. He can stop Accelerator's propelled body, but cannot stop conjured knives or other projectiles? I still think he can only stop what hasn't already been "completed." If the Esper or mage is still interacting with whatever it is Touma is attempting to cancel, then he can still effect it. That would explain why he was able to hit back Accelerator, since Accelerator was still controlling his own propelled body. Most of the fight was simply Touma cancelling out Accelerator's automatic defense, something he clearly relied upon so much that he couldn't even imagine someone getting past it.

Then again, my theory is out the window because if Touma can't affect what's already been done, he should have been able to cancel out the alchemist's blade that severed his arm as easily as he destroyed the conjured car that was dropped on him.

Rather, I think it's an inconsistency in the physics, rather than Touma's ability. I believe Accelerator can't actually control his own body propulsion. Otherwise, simply by manipulating air friction, he would be able to fly.

He applies friction/momentum/force against the ground, and magnifies it so he travels like a bullet. He can't control his speed or trajectory in "flight" though. Touma siimply punched him and laid him flat. What's inconsistent is how he has enough momentum in his punch to knock Accelerator back.

That keeps it consistent with what they said before with Izzard, at least.

[shinta|hikari]

That punch combo scene looked ridiculous for the reason you just stated above. I have finally resigned myself to simply accepting the nonsense that happens and will happen in battles from here on out.

[RyougaZell]

Accelerator is just a kid... an arrogant and cocky kid who never was punched before. You guys seriously expected him to know how to react using his powers to stop him from flying back from the punches?

[Archangel]

Rather, I think it's an inconsistency in the physics, rather than Touma's ability. I believe Accelerator can't actually control his own body propulsion. Otherwise, simply by manipulating air friction, he would be able to fly.

Dude... gravity? He's able to fly, there's no question about it. All he has to do is point gravity's force to where he wants to.


Also, would a projectile that has been shot magically harm his hand? For example, when Mikoto shoots a coin using electricity towards him, if he had put his hand up would it had pierced it? For some reason I think that if he were to touch the coin, the coin would lose all it's momentum... since the force that theoretically was driving it forward (the magic/abilities) is negated, so it might return to its original stationary state. Might not be probable, but I think it would be quite cool that way.

If eclipse's translation in the first episode is correct, Touma did claim that his right hand was capable of dispelling a railgun.

[Buffalobiian]

Dude... gravity? He's able to fly, there's no question about it. All he has to do is point gravity's force to where he wants to.

If so, then the next obvious question is why didn't he? The way they showed all his pushing off, fly kicks and super jumps leads me to believe flying's not an option. I would try to say something about can't touching gravity, but I can't find the right wording to make it sound right.

[Archangel]

If he flew it would be like he was afraid to face Touma and i don't think his oversized ego would allow him to do that.

And again, he's crazy.

[KrayZ33]

the fact that his shield is on "auto-reverse" all the time and thus redirecting every single vector means that he must knowingly ALLOW gravity to affect him all the time.

A nice way to prove that he can actually fly is when he jumps after Misaka.. he is always at the same speed, obviously not getting slower even though he doesn't touch the ground to speed things up again

which means he can ignore air friction and since he doesn't step on the ground also means that the gravity force doesn't affect him then (but well... it's still an anime so this doesn't have to mean something ^^)

I wonder if sound and light are also some kind of "vectors" which means that he has to allow them to affect his body.. so he can hear and see things and natuarlly the other way around.


edit: Uhm.. how do you look like if you block all the light? Are you extremely white then?

like an albino? because Accelerator really looks like an albino a bit. but then again.. it's an anime, white hair isn't something special there.. and I can't really see if his eyes are red or brown, because they fight at night :/

edit2: ok I googled a bit about what happens if your hair turns grey and your skin doesn't get tan and such.

In albinism it has to do something with the body, which is not able to produce melanin, it is possible that an enzyme doesn't work correctly or is missing.
BUT you need UV-light to stimulate the melanin-output... so if I'm correct, Accelerator looks like an albino because he blocks/reverse UV-light by default.

that's pretty cool, but it must be the hell for Accelerator who constantly allows "this and that" to affect him, so he can at least live a bit more normal... I mean what if you have to remind your body how to breath every second? I'd go crazy too ^^

Can he actually change the "auto-deflect/reverse" shield to something else? or at least disable it? But if he does that, he would risk to get hurt alot and become vulnerable

[David75]

the fact that his shield is on "auto-reverse" all the time and thus redirecting every single vector means that he must knowingly ALLOW gravity to affect him all the time.

A nice way to prove that he can actually fly is when he jumps after Misaka.. he is always at the same speed, obviously not getting slower even though he doesn't touch the ground to speed things up again

which means he can ignore air friction and since he doesn't step on the ground also means that the gravity force doesn't affect him then (but well... it's still an anime so this doesn't have to mean something ^^)

I wonder if sound and light are also some kind of "vectors" which means that he has to allow them to affect his body.. so he can hear and see things and natuarlly the other way around.


edit: Uhm.. how do you look like if you block all the light? Are you extremely white then?

like an albino? because Accelerator really looks like an albino a bit. but then again.. it's an anime, white hair isn't something special there.. and I can't really see if his eyes are red or brown, because they fight at night :/

Regarding light, it depends on how he decides to deflect light. If pure reflection, then mostly like a miror.
He can also decide to act as if light beams were passing through him, so that he becomes invisible (negative angle reflexion or the likes)

He could also modify the directions as to let you think he shows you his back, when he in fact is facing you... (a bait for a coward attack)

sound and light are waves going into a direction. As such, you could consider them vectors I guess.

Really, Accelerator powers with better wits and experience would mean someone totally invicible. But he seems to be quite instable in his mind, so him losing against Touma may have him totally mind fucked, I wonder if some higher ups decided to kill him when he was weak for he represents quite a threat.

Regarding Touma's power, from ep16 events, I wonder if his father also has an Imagine Breaker.
My assumption comes from the fact he collects so many lucky charms... not from the preview

[Kraco]

I wonder if sound and light are also some kind of "vectors" which means that he has to allow them to affect his body.. so he can hear and see things and natuarlly the other way around.

Like I speculated some time ago, a mage or an esper controlling electromagnetic radiation would be one of the few real enemies of Accelerator. He would be able to do pretty much nothing against one, in a fair fight. Even if he could reflect the radiation, that would leave him blind and thus unable to do anything. Yeah, I'm not expecting to ever see such a fight in the story because it would ultimately be a very boring one...

[David75]

Like I speculated some time ago, a mage or an esper controlling electromagnetic radiation would be one of the few real enemies of Accelerator. He would be able to do pretty much nothing against one, in a fair fight. Even if he could reflect the radiation, that would leave him blind and thus unable to do anything. Yeah, I'm not expecting to ever see such a fight in the story because it would ultimately be a very boring one...

To that the answer is thresold, he probably has enough control to let the necessary pass so that he can see, and reflect what is dangerous to him.

But we'll never know, I guess.

[Kraco]

To that the answer is thresold, he probably has enough control to let the necessary pass so that he can see, and reflect what is dangerous to him.

If we go down that road, I'm sure, should he realise he's losing, he would kick the Earth towards the Sun and let the whole world be destroyed. After all, if he can control everything, surely he can control everything.

[Archangel]

If we go down that road, I'm sure, should he realise he's losing, he would kick the Earth towards the Sun and let the whole world be destroyed. After all, if he can control everything, surely he can control everything.

lol i coult totally see him doing something like that

But if he has that kind of power how would level 6 be an upgrade?

[shinta|hikari]

But the example of him filtering dangerous levels of a certain vector magnitude is a different form of control to kicking the earth towards the sun. The former merely involves intricate manipulation, but the other assumes that there is no limit to how much he can change the magnitude in a vector. Judging from the fights that we have seen, there should be a limit to it. Otherwise, Touma should have died from a single rock traveling faster than light.

[Kraco]

Yeah, but it doesn't really matter at all. Your level of blindness is the same whether you see nothing or whether you see only whiteness or some colour, like he would be seeing against such an opponent even if he filtered dangerous levels. Besides, like I mentioned earlier, coherent light having less than the energy of sunlight would still be enough to blind him temporarily. And since we are talking about science here and not magic, there's no way he could simply filter everything that could possibly cause inconvenience. If he indeed could filter anything in such a manner, he would specifically need to set those filters, and "dangerous or inconvenient" are anything but specific.

Plus I'm not entirely convinced he can adjust his shielding faster than light, and considering his arrogance, he might thus lose during the first seconds of the fight.