Advanced Timing Tutorial (Nvidia) somewhere?

[David75]

So,
I'm a bit tired of the stuttering problem caused by the different fpses used in video media.

Reclock isn't a very effective solution, or if it is, it's a pain in the a... to use.

I was wondering if someone had a link to a good tutorial for Advanced Timing you have in the personal resolution section of the Nvidia Control Panel.

The terms for this search are a bit too general, also I'd like a not too complicated tutorial if possible. I also admitt my brain cell want me to sleep right now ;)

Thanks a lot, if you've found a nice solution for yourself and care to share.

[David75]

Still to lazy to seek for a well detailed and easy source.
Playing with reclock @ 30pfs, so 1.2*speed. On toradora, that's a tad strange... the ED too is strange at that speed.

[darkshadow]

I really have no idea what you are talking about, maybe you could give some more in depth info?

[David75]

Ok solved my problem with powerstrip.
Did a change at the right place and I'm now able to run everything (card+screen) @48Hz so no more stutter. Will monitor this, as I achieved this only seconds ago.

Edit: and Reclock seems to be mandatory too, at least for the Toradora scenes I'm trying to get smooth

[David75]

Ok I'm Bumping this (not a double post) because it's driving me nuts.

I tried some bundled solution to get rid of that judder. Thing is that I got lots of other problems.
Going back to normal was easy as I fiddle with those settings a lot... but of course can't find a solution to all of my video playing problems.

So...
It seems the judder problem is linked to the 23.976 Fps most anime are encoded to.
The problem is that LCD panels are at 60Hz/Fps most of the time, so there's no frequency nearing a multiple of 24fps available.

I thought I had it sorted with PowerStrip and Reclock, but the judder is still there in every "slow motion camera movement" in all 23.976 encoded anime, ie almost all of them.
Maybe it's due to the fact that the Nvidia 8800GT/Viewsonic VP171b can't go below 48,8Hz/Fps or can't go to 72Hz FPS (screen limitation is 60 @1280x1042)

Seems like avisynth can be of help, I wonder if anyone has ideas around that subject.

Gosh, the AV world really is a jungle, and when connected to the Computer world, you really get lost easily

[Buffalobiian]

I've never had jutter problems playing 23.976fps on my 60Hz LCD monitor, so that's rather interesting. The jutter problem I've had though, is when I'm forced to re-encode 23.976fps to 25fps, because this program won't let me keep my original settings. Even then, it works fine on my monitor, but jutters when played on the DVD player using a CRT tv.

But that's another story. Is it only that specific monitor, or that specific computer? (I doubt I can help, but just out of curiosity)

[David75]

I've never had jutter problems playing 23.976fps on my 60Hz LCD monitor, so that's rather interesting. The jutter problem I've had though, is when I'm forced to re-encode 23.976fps to 25fps, because this program won't let me keep my original settings. Even then, it works fine on my monitor, but jutters when played on the DVD player using a CRT tv.

But that's another story. Is it only that specific monitor, or that specific computer? (I doubt I can help, but just out of curiosity)
Changed Computer and OS.
Changed the player
Will recheck fully on my projector alone.
Will check in analog.

Il may take some time tough, as I'm quite lazy.
Thanks

[David75]

I'm bumping again:
So far all the pcs I tried, with enough power for HD animes, where with Nvidia cards and DVI.

It's frustrating not being able to try with an ATI, but whatever.

The interresting thing is DVI...
Seems like DVI hasn't been designed with lots of refreshing rates in mind. So it's 60Hz or so. Causing troubles for non multiple FPS in paning sequences in movies/anime.

To test that, I tried with a DVI to VGA adapter... I know, I go back in the history of technical progress.... but in VGA the image is still good and I can even get 72Hz refresh rate that didn't work with DVI even with powerstrip... maybe it comes from the cable, I have a much better one but installed, so it"s a pain in the ass to try that...

In VGA, 72Hz goes smoothly. VGA was designed or updated with multiple refresh rates... and now with powerstrip and reclock, although not perfect, paning scenes are so much better. Because 72=3*24...

I guess next step is a HDMI monitor (like that 21.5" FullHD viewsonic) and a HDMI card with enough power for my other needs...
Why HDMI? because if lucky, the whole loop accepts lots of other refresh rates... because the design is more open for refresh rates.

but for now vga is ok...

[Board of Command]

This is one of the strangest threads I've ever encountered on the internet. Your refresh rate shouldn't affect your video playback regardless of the video's frame rate. Even if you have a video at 23.976 FPS, your video card will convert the overall output image to 60 Hz for your LCD to display. The refresh rate doesn't need to be a multiple of the video frame rate in order to play it smoothly. In fact, games would all be unplayable if this were true because the frame rate is constantly fluctuating between two extremes.

The reason why DVI only gives you 60 Hz is that it reads the EDID from your monitor, and since LCDs are generally designed for 60 Hz only, it limits the degrees of freedom you have on the refresh rate setting. You get more options for VGA because you have less restrictions with an analog signal.

[David75]

This is one of the strangest threads I've ever encountered on the internet. Your refresh rate shouldn't affect your video playback regardless of the video's frame rate. Even if you have a video at 23.976 FPS, your video card will convert the overall output image to 60 Hz for your LCD to display. The refresh rate doesn't need to be a multiple of the video frame rate in order to play it smoothly. In fact, games would all be unplayable if this were true because the frame rate is constantly fluctuating between two extremes.

The reason why DVI only gives you 60 Hz is that it reads the EDID from your monitor, and since LCDs are generally designed for 60 Hz only, it limits the degrees of freedom you have on the refresh rate setting. You get more options for VGA because you have less restrictions with an analog signal.

You know, I also thought it was strange, then I remarked that playback in scenes where the camera moves from right to left (or any steady direction), it's not smooth at all.
Regardless of the os, codec, player, comp.
It was hard for me to believe, but yes this is a common problem. So I researched, because it became unbearable to watch that stuttering or juddering or anyways you call it. You probably remarked there are lots of those paning scenes in anime, as they save lots of money by drastistically reducing the number of new frames to draw by drawing a larger one where nothing moves inside, only the cam...

It's very hard to pinpoint, and my memory is bad so I can't give you the best example to date... If it comes back, even with my new settings, to how bad it was, I'll update with an example.

It's related to any video encoded at 24FPS in paning (or traveling?) scenes.

Example:
You can see the phenomenon in

[Rumbel]_Soul_Eater_-_16_[H264][Uncut][6D9140D0].mkv From roughly 5'07" to 5'20"
It's not very strong there... but it's there nonetheless.
Same ep, a lot stronger, 16'41" to 16'48"
Then 17'13 to 17'19, strong again

I hope it's not related to some other problems... but I'm sure I read threads on AVSforums and so on, so I'm not alone experiencing this.

[Board of Command]

I redownloaded that episode at watched those parts. You're right, those panning scenes are sort of shaky. I never really noticed it before though. I only see it in slow panning scenes.

[David75]

I redownloaded that episode at watched those parts. You're right, those panning scenes are sort of shaky. I never really noticed it before though. I only see it in slow panning scenes.

Thanks for experimenting too ;)
This isn't the only ep with the problem, I guess you can watch anime for months or more without caring... and then for some reason you can't tolerate it anymore.
For that ep, I'm trying to dl most of the raws to check wether some combinations of codec and fps are better suited.

It seems that anime is broadcasted at 30FPS at least, so encoding it to 24FPS is a very bad idea, sure files are lighter, but you get troubles... at least I want to confirm that.


Edit:
Got a raw for that EP16, [Zero-Raws] Soul Eater 16 Raw (704x396 DivX682).avi encoded at 23.976 Fps.
With the MPC internal decoder, it's perfectly smooth for all the scenes I've seen in that ep causing problems with the rumbel one. When using a refresh rate of 60Hz for the screen, smoothness isn't as good.

With ffdshow, it's a little worser.

I'll update once other raws come, they're a bit old, so it"s hard to get them.

Seems like the problem I want to solve isn't caused by one source alone, but rather multiple factors...

[Board of Command]

And it seems to be most prevalent in anime. I don't think I've ever seen this in normal film (non-animated).

I just checked the ef - Melodies OP, which is full of slow-moving horizontal and vertical panning, and all of it is perfectly smooth. The video is 23.976 FPS H264 decoded using ffdshow. This video I encoded is also perfectly smooth in slow pans, although it's 24 FPS instead of 23.976. The 23.976 number actually comes from 24000/1001, which is the standard frame rate for progressive NTSC film.

http://www.mplayerhq.hu/DOCS/HTML/en/menc-feat-telecine.html

That shaking might actually be caused by the encoding process, where the encoder adjusted the frame rate by simply discarding frames from the original. If you start with a very high frame rate source, such as a ~120 FPS TS raw, then frame rate conversion can introduce choppiness.

My video (http://www.sendspace.com/file/wk2tb1)

In Kara no Kyoukai 01, the fight scene starting at 26:00 has a lot of large backdrop shots with a panning camera, and the video is perfectly smooth throughout the whole thing. The file is [gg-TakaJun]_Kara_no_Kyoukai_-_The_Garden_of_Sinners_-_01v2_[3F2E8FEA].mkv

[David75]

And it seems to be most prevalent in anime. I don't think I've ever seen this in normal film (non-animated).

I just checked the ef - Melodies OP, which is full of slow-moving horizontal and vertical panning, and all of it is perfectly smooth. The video is 23.976 FPS H264 decoded using ffdshow. This video I encoded is also perfectly smooth in slow pans, although it's 24 FPS instead of 23.976. The 23.976 number actually comes from 24000/1001, which is the standard frame rate for progressive NTSC film.

http://www.mplayerhq.hu/DOCS/HTML/en/menc-feat-telecine.html

That shaking might actually be caused by the encoding process, where the encoder adjusted the frame rate by simply discarding frames from the original.

The encoding route was my guess after I downloaded that raw with better smoothness.
Alas as you said, it may well be very common for anime. I guess the guys who encode follow some tutorial lacking a warning for that phenomenon. I can't blame them, it's just that if they knew it could be so much better.

I had read about telecine, but before I had that soul eater ep with two version working very differently, I still needed to get some progress. Now I'm a little further.

Sadly I highly doubt there's a solution to get a smooth paning with a file encoded wrong.

[Board of Command]

The encoding route was my guess after I downloaded that raw with better smoothness.
Alas as you said, it may well be very common for anime. I guess the guys who encode follow some tutorial lacking a warning for that phenomenon. I can't blame them, it's just that if they knew it could be so much better.
I edited my post after your reply. I mentioned the 120 FPS raws they might be using. When your source frame rate is that high, you cannot use the ConvertFPS command in Avisynth when you re-encode due to the argument restrictions. You must use ChangeFPS, which will delete or duplicate frames which might cause the choppiness you're seeing.

[David75]

I edited my post after your reply. I mentioned the 120 FPS raws they might be using. When your source frame rate is that high, you cannot use the ConvertFPS command in Avisynth when you re-encode due to the argument restrictions. You must use ChangeFPS, which will delete or duplicate frames which might cause the choppiness you're seeing.


Ok thanks for that, so there's a technical limitation and the workaround is causing that problem too.
Ok I'll check the old shows I've got to see which have some stuttering, but I doubt I'll find raws for comparison.
I guess there are other cases where it appears too

Provided I have enough courage, once every aspect is covered, I'm wondering if I shall write a wiki... if it doesn't yet exist


Edit: right after my post, a highdef raw arrived. Very smooth too, H264@ 23.976
the stats:
[Shinsen-Raws] SOUL EATER - 16 (BS-J_1920x1080 x264-AAC).mp4
Video: MPEG4 Video (H264) 1920x1080 23.98fps [GPAC ISO Video Handler]
Audio: AAC 48000Hz stereo 161Kbps [GPAC ISO Audio Handler]

Very smooth with MPCinternal decoder and FFdshow
Stutters with CoreAvc...

I have 3 other raws waiting, but the chance I get seeds is low. Sadly 2 of them are labelled 120fps... that'd be nice material

[David75]

Bumping that old thread, because the fight goes on.

I learned a lot about 24FPS and the absurdity it is nowadays, creating problem even for film directors ( horrible scenes in Casino Royale for example) and to high end home theater enthusiasts.

The solution I stumbled upon is called Frame Interpolation.
You need ffdshow, avisynth, MT, mvtools. Unfortunately it doesn't work with windows 7 beta as of yet (mvtools) and I'm too lazy to resinstall XP...

So I used the frame doubler in FFDshow. It's under deinterlacing. Then use the one pixel motion left and right choice.

I use Reclock and Power strip too.

It doesn't work all the time, sometimes the encoding is atrocious, but it seems it works on most of the judder problems I've had, to transform it into very slight flickering at times.

Next step would be to try realtime frame interpolation, to see if it's better or not.

Really I've been searching for months, I'm not alone with the problem, solutions aren't easy.
I even considered buying an Ati card, since their drivers are more open, which gives a better frequency control in Powerstrip.

Now the gazillions traveling scenes you have in anime (since they spare lots of frames, reducing costs) are a lot smoother.

I'll update if I find a better solution, or if problems arise.

[David75]

Bumping again, for closure this time. At least till I find even better solutions.

Motion judder for 24 images per second video is almost totally gone.

How?Why?
Because I can now use my monitor at 72Hz. Seems like nvidia drivers did manage to create a 1280*1024@72Hz custom resolution. I've never been able to before, the custome rez always failing the test sequences, or the new rez being in fact 75Hz...
I tried several times in a row and one of the trials was the right one.

Then I use one of the very last beta builds of mpc-hc with madvr renderer and latest reclock.
I get slight tearing from madvr, some flickering instead of judder on panning scenes. But it's fluid, with some exceptions I think I can say are from the encoding and/or reclock being too slow to adjust.

And yes, I get motion judder in 30 FPS video, like in CrossGame eps that often are encoded at 30FPS, the solution being to go back to 60Hz screen refresh.

[David75]

Summary:
EVR sync+settings in mpc-hc last builds seems to get rid of playback judder.


Just to let you guys know something new just came up with the very last builds of mpc-hc:
EVR sync
and EVR sync settings.

That combined with better drivers, I do not need to use reclock anymore.
Reclock was tiring, because it happens that anime can have parts encoded at 23.976 FPS and other parts at 29.996 (or so). And some of them switch quite a bit from one to the other. And each time, reclock as the audio to skip a bit and that's annoying.

The other problem is that reclock does not have a 64bits version (or if it does, I'm not up to date).

I like having a 64bits player as it serves as a stable basis because of the so few players/filters/codecs available. You can then play/mess with the 32bit version and be sure that at the end of the day you'll be able to enjoy your dose of anime without having to search for hours for a problem you created.

I did not mess around evr sync settings much, I just had the sync marging up from +/-2 to +/-4 ms just in case.

to me, that solution seems more stable than the reclock one, I did not spend long hours running it, but it feels better. Maybe there are some accelerations at time in the video, but I'll have to gather more experience. It's more fluid, more sure, very confortable and I can again enjoy picture depth in panning scenes. Judder just destroys picture depth, at least to me.
Again, it works only if the problem isn't with the encode or raw.

Summary:
EVR sync+settings in mpc-hc last builds seems to get rid of playback judder.