Naruto Shippuuden Episode 84

[Marik]

[DB]​_Naruto​_Shippuuden​_084​_[007E6FEF].avi (http://www.dattebayo.com/t/ns084.torrent)

[LaZie]

To be blunt, this episode was pretty good. Especially Sai :p

[ASSpirine]

great episode again
Keep em coming I say
Luckily I didn't watch the preview of the last episode, and I'm not doing it again

At first when I saw those masks on his back, I thought his body was made from parts of dead ANBU members. :p

[Jessper]

Great episode. Kakashi really shows how amazing he is which is a nice change of pace. I'll bet that Kakuzu himself has a water affinity thus we have all 5. As we saw before though, one Jounin (even someone like Kakashi) isn't going to have a chance with having to protect 3 others. If the Naruto scenes are chronologically ordered with the rest of the episode I don't see him making it out there in time. Perhaps someone else will intervene (we have not seen Jiraya in a while...) and change the tide of this fight.

Also, Kakashi mentioned that he shouldn't be able to use techniques of this level with out having the affinity for them. That should solve the earlier arguement about if you can use techniques you don't have the affinity for.

After all the crap I caught last episode this is pretty funny. I overestimated Shikamaru apparently, he didn't last 2 episodes before running out of Chakara. Looks like he has run out of plans, imagine that after he wasted his few opportunities to have a quick win. (I'm sure I'll get a ton of flak for this too lol)

[DarthEnderX]

Well, as much as I agree with that, at this point its pretty obvious that no single attack would have taken out Kakuzu, and no amount of planning would have prepared them for his abilities.

I like how they explain elemental vulnerabilities right before its obviously going to become important. :p


Anyway, the episode was epic. E-pic.

[RyougaZell]

The animation for Kakuzu's attacks was formidable...

The part at the end was gold...

Gai: You look pale Sai.
Sai: I always do.

Sai (wearing green jumpsuit): So, how does it look?
Sakura: Bluntly? It looks Gay.

[Buffalobiian]

Awesome episode. FAIL preview.

Really, how much more awesome would Kakashi's attack have been if we didn't know Kakuzu would survive, because he HAD to strip and show his masks. Other than that, and this week's preview again, this is just badass. Kakashi shows that in a world of power-ups and mutant abilities, a lot still comes down to good old ninja basics.

-He read the opponent's move using his Sharingan.
-He had an elemental advantage over Earth.

Those two things don't make you a winner. You still have to a) hide your presence, b) know your ninjitsu facts inside out, and c) be fast as hell, as well as decisive, and possess good judgement.

Naruto has all the powerup in the world, but he's a Genin for a reason.

Edit: Yes, Shikamaru did disappoint. :( And notice that it didn't matter whether Ino was hiding or not. No one gave a shit.

[tystic]

My guess: Kakuzu had an affinity for earth. He somehow sealed the chakra of other ninja into those greasy plasmus things that are tied to him through the masks. Voila, him + 4 others = 5 potential affinities for elements.

Kakashi smushed one mask, broke the tie to Kakuzu, so he probably has only 4 left.

When Hidan went after Kakashi I kept thinking oh crap Kakashi is gonna die.

I hope no one wants to use that field once Naruto is done with it. Maybe a swimming resort can be built on it.

[Buffalobiian]

My guess: Kakashi had an affinity for earth.

Their names looked so similar, that's what I read it as the first time. Remember how Kakashi said Jounins can usually use 2 elements, but Kakashi simply ignored Naruto's question about his second affinity? Like someone said before, this episode answers out question about affinity and technique usage. Potentially, Kakashi has one huge trump card that no one's ever seen. (Except maybe Guy and the 4th) I hope they didn't build this up for nothing.

[Assertn]

That's pretty lame that DB didn't translate all 5 elements that Yamato listed...
I'm surprised people aren't asking about what those relationships are.

[Jessper]

That's pretty lame that DB didn't translate all 5 elements that Yamato listed...
I'm surprised people aren't asking about what those relationships are.
http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/4316/elements2bp3.jpg

Should be good enough... [This translation should be correct]

Though these don't seem right, since lightning should be strong to earth yet it shows it the other way. It seems from the information we've been given (wind > lightning and lightning > earth) that earth and lightning were switched in this picture? Anyone want to do a translation and see? =) [Mystery Solved!]

This is DB's translation for the symbols placed on the relationship image we were given.

Edit: did a tiny bit of research and it appears that I'm right, the symbols are switched. I couldn't find the symbol for lightning but the rest match up and earth should be the bottom left. Though feel free to correct me here, my google-foo might not stand up to scrutiny.

Another Edit: Fixed the picture~

[Uberbaka]

According to manga translation it's (from the top and going clockwise)
Fire > Wind > Lightning > Earth > Water > (Fire)

So yeah, mistranslation.

[12345p]

Either my ISP is blocking dattebayo.com, their server is offline or their connection is being zombied DoS. No Shipuuden torrent for me. :(

Side note: Can't see how I could've been banned but you never know about these things LOL

[12345p]

Either my ISP is blocking dattebayo.com, their server is offline or their connection is being zombied DoS. No Shipuuden torrent for me. :(

Side note: Can't see how I could've been banned but you never know about these things LOL

Yay. Website back up. Hurray for me.

[arondruiz]

So many nice episodes in a row, I actually look forward to episodes again for the first time in a couple years

and don't be fooled by the actionless preview, next episode is almost certainly going to be the best Shippuuden episode yet

[Azonalanthious]

I enjoyed the episode as well, though one of my first thoughts after watching Kakashi absorb the lightning attack is "well, now we have to rename him yoda." :rolleyes: One thing I am wondering about - if memory serves, Kakashi can use chidori 4 times a day - he used it once already. I imagine he can take down the mask dudes with it (3 more uses), but that leaves him out of uses just when he needs to use it again to finish things. It'll be interesting to see where it goes.

Also - I hope Ino pulls out something to save the team from the fire - I hate seeing her come down with the whole Sakura "I am totally useless" syndrome.

[Pandadice]

holy crap.
[quote]I actually look forward to episodes again[/quote I can't agree with you more.

this fight is so awesome. man! when kakashi just punched through the guy. I couldn't believe it! it would of been so awesome if they just left the guy dead, and that was it for him. that would of been such an awesome way to kill him off. but still, keeping him alive is just as awesome because we get to see his techniques and stuff.

man! when Kakashi just jumped in front of the lightening thing and blocked it! that was such an awesome scene.

I don't get why Naruto's forcing himself to do all this training.. he won't get it in any less time than the time they have, and even if he does, he'll still be like worn out and dead tired from days of endless training. it would be stupid to send him there. and I really hope that he doesn't go into this fight. that would be absolutely the worst way to end this fight. with him using his new technique to finish one of them off.. awman, I just thought of that as a possibility and now I'm half looking forward to the awesome episodes, but at the same time I'm half dreading the possibilities.. dang it..

oh yeah, and Ino just running into the fight going 'ohh no guys! guys watch out!!'. that was so dumb.. I sighed with disappointment..

this fire beats wind beats lightening thing puts a new spin on Kakashi and Guy's rock paper scissor matches.

[ASSpirine]

Yeah, Kakahi's chidori totally caught me by surprise. Was so awesome to see.

And I don't see what could be wrong with the translation of DB about the weaknessess...
According to the picture in clockwise it's stronger. Counter clockwise is weaker.
I do have to say, it's not logical that lightning is stronger than earth... If I've learned anything from Pokemon, it should be turned around :p

[Buffalobiian]

I don't see how that works neither, but they couldn't really have it any other way.

Maybe

Earth>lightning>water>fire>wind>Earth.

After all, wind nature is supposed to cut, and earth seems to be the most physical/solid of the 5 elements.

[DarthEnderX]

Yeah, I noticed DB messed up that translation because in their picture wind was strong against earth, but that didn't jive with what Yamato was saying.

But seriously, it makes no sense that lightning is strong against earth since the ground harmlessly absorbs electricity in real life. I'm guessing its one of those things where after making 4 connections logically, you just have to connect the end of the circle to the beginning.

But then, thats thats Kishi's fault for making lightning an element unlike pretty much every other show/video game ever.

[Archangel]

Yes it makes no sense but it's the way it is:

Wind ---> Lightning ---> Earth ---> Water ---> Fire ---> Wind

Obviously it would have made more sense to change earth with lightning so electricity defeated water and earth defeated lightning but Kishi decided to make the affinity table like this and now we're stuck with it.

In my opinion the only reason he did this was so he could give naruto the wind element and make it strong against the chidori, which to me just feels like lazy writing on his part.

The whole system has a pokemon feel to it so i never really liked it anyway *hides avatar*

Dam the animation on the next episode is gonna be awesome again, but Chouji really looks weird like that lol ( no problem because kakashi looks extra cool to make up for it )

[Uberbaka]

Yeah, Kakahi's chidori totally caught me by surprise. Was so awesome to see.

Good good, because that scene (including others) were in the the preview I was wtf'ing about last week.

[ASSpirine]

yeah, i saw the warnings from the users
and I think I'll keep on doing this untill the good episodes are gone :p

[Jessper]

I imagine he can take down the mask dudes with it (3 more uses), but that leaves him out of uses just when he needs to use it again to finish things. It'll be interesting to see where it goes.


I'm almost positive that after all this vulnerability talk they will have to use the element each mask is weak vs to kill it. So Chidori is going to be out for fighting Kakuzu anymore.



And I don't see what could be wrong with the translation of DB about the weaknessess...
According to the picture in clockwise it's stronger.

I fixed it in my picture, they switched earth and lightning in their translation.

As for the elemental weaknesses it is pretty silly all around. Throwing dirt on a fire will put it out as well if not better than water. Don't try and make real connections, just assume that was one example that worked and the rest is just how it works in the Naruto universe.

[Assertn]

They way Kakuzu was using earth so much, I figured earth was his natural affinity, and that the ghost that died was probably water or something.

[Buffalobiian]

I don't know if it was good or not to have the Kissing Lady from the filler also using multiple chakra elements. It saved them having to explain it here, and so pacing wise it helped. On the other hand, it took away the "wow" factor, and that the ability's been "cheapened" by having some random use it in a filler.

Kind of like how they animated Gai's Gates in filler. His morning peacock felt bland.

[Pandadice]

On the other hand, it took away the "wow" factor, and that the ability's been "cheapened" by having some random use it in a filler.

dude, I thought the exact same thing.

[lilphatboi88]

Yeah, they are definitely going to have to switch it up because as explained in previous episodes, wind is supposed to cut so...wind>earth>lightning>water>fire

[DarthEnderX]

Ah, I'd forgotten about the filler hair-monster. Wtf are the filler writers thinking ripping off a major badguys upcoming power?

[iMUSTbeTHEdevil]

I liked Kakashi v Hidan, I thought the animation was really well done. Also liked Kakashi v the Lightning attack, I forgot about that! Overall, Kakashi was kick ass!

[ASSpirine]

It's Kakashi, when doesn't he kick ass?

[Azonalanthious]

It's Kakashi, when doesn't he kick ass?

For three weeks story time or 10 episodes real time (whichever comes first) after every major fight, when he is lying in the hospital recovering. ;)

[Archangel]

For three weeks story time or 10 episodes real time (whichever comes first) after every major fight, when he is lying in the hospital recovering. ;)

Lol poor kakashi. He already had poor stamina and then Kishi had to give him the MS, it's just too much for him :p

[lilphatboi88]

But dude, what a badass. Kakashi has such a reputation. I loved the part where Kakuzu deduces, something about "lightning fast speed, able to read jutsus, you're Sharigan Kakashi!"

That was a good part.

[Kraco]

If they survive the gentle caresses of these Akatsuki monsters, I think a little holiday (in a hospital) is probably not a bad idea for any of them.

[lilphatboi88]

And in the meantime, there would be a new development such as another chuunin or jounin exam.

[ASSpirine]

Kakashi has quite some stamina, but as he said, the chidori uses way to much. And a sharingan in a non Uchiha body wastes too much chakra. That's why it seems he doesn't have a lot.

They should send Shikamaru to a boot camp after this, build up some more stamina.

I loved the part too. You're Sharingan no Kakashi. That does sound better then copy ninja Kakashi.

Also, I'm wondering how one is promoted to Jounin, Chuunins we saw.

[Buffalobiian]

I'm quite sure they told us Kakashi's chakra capacity (ties in strongly with stamina, from what we're shown) is lower than average, and not merely to a minor extent neither.

It doesn't mean he's completely worthless, as we saw him pull quite a few techniques during the Zabuza arc. Just that he's got to make sure every technique hits/counts, unlike our friend in the orange jump suit.

[ASSpirine]

I really can't remember when they said that...
And comparing to Naruto isn't fair ;)

[Pandadice]

Also, I'm wondering how one is promoted to Jounin, Chuunins we saw.

there was something about the Jounin exam before. it would f been in the filler most likely. or an OVA.. Maybe it was in the red leaf clover ova? that's what I seem to be thinking.. anyways, there's like flash backs and stuff to when Iruka took it. something like that..

[Jessper]

I really can't remember when they said that...
And comparing to Naruto isn't fair ;)

I want to say it was just before the Deidara fight but I'm not exactly sure. However he is correct.



there was something about the Jounin exam before. it would f been in the filler most likely. or an OVA.. Maybe it was in the red leaf clover ova? that's what I seem to be thinking.. anyways, there's like flash backs and stuff to when Iruka took it. something like that..

If it happened it was filler so it isn't that useful of information. :)


Also, I'm wondering how one is promoted to Jounin, Chuunins we saw.

I assume you mean how these three are not Jounin? If not Neji made it to Jounin. The rest seem to not be near that level, remember Kakashi said that Jounin generally have control over at least 2 (I think it was 2, if nothing else at least 1) elemental type. Which bodes well for the next time we see Neji. :D

[Abdula]

What Jounin exam? There is no Jounin exam and the idea of an exam to become a jounin is really stupid. Firstly it wouldn't be some genin kids taking the exam and I'm absolutely sure no village would be pulling their chunins off of missions to have some stupid exam. Secondly I doubt you could properly assess whether someone has what it takes to be a Jounin based on some stupid exam.

I would think getting promoted to jounin would be based on how you perform on missions, your skill level and skill set, etc and that there would be a group of people, probably the hokage and the elders that would ultimately decide who gets promoted.

[ASSpirine]

I want to say it was just before the Deidara fight but I'm not exactly sure. However he is correct.



If it happened it was filler so it isn't that useful of information. :)



I assume you mean how these three are not Jounin? If not Neji made it to Jounin. The rest seem to not be near that level, remember Kakashi said that Jounin generally have control over at least 2 (I think it was 2, if nothing else at least 1) elemental type. Which bodes well for the next time we see Neji. :D

Not any Jounin can control 2 elemental types, and the maximum is 2 elemental types I think. Not counting the special shinobi's

[Archangel]

Not any Jounin can control 2 elemental types, and the maximum is 2 elemental types I think. Not counting the special shinobi's

Kakashi implied that most of them could

Kakashi himself can control at least 3, 4 if you count the filler battle is shippuden for the bells

What's a special shinobi...? Do you mean special jounins? Because if you do you should know that they are overall weaker than normal jounins, but possess that title because they excel in some field of work ( like Ibiki's interrogation techniques )

[ASSpirine]

I still don't believe that you have to have affinity to one element before you can perform their jutsu's. Meaning Naruto can never learn a katon jutsu, even the most basic katon jutsu would not be possible how simple they are? That doesn't work for me.

And especially Kakashi who has sharingan, this means he can do every element. Yet you say he can do 3 to 4 elements... Does that mean he can't copy e.g. wind jutsus?

And if he possess so many elements then that means that he can create new types (like the ice from Haku)

And with special Shinobi's, I mean someone like Kakuzu who can actually control all the elements. And also the filler lady.

[Archangel]

I still don't believe that you have to have affinity to one element before you can perform their jutsu's. Meaning Naruto can never learn a katon jutsu, even the most basic katon jutsu would not be possible how simple they are? That doesn't work for me.

And especially Kakashi who has sharingan, this means he can do every element. Yet you say he can do 3 to 4 elements... Does that mean he can't copy e.g. wind jutsus?

And if he possess so many elements then that means that he can create new types (like the ice from Haku)

And with special Shinobi's, I mean someone like Kakuzu who can actually control all the elements. And also the filler lady.

... good for you?

Yes, he can't copy wind jutsus and he probably can't copy fire jutsus either.

No, Haku could combine his 2 affinities because his bloodline limit allowed him to

No one can control all 5 elements, this has been explained before. The filler lady is, as you said, filler material and there's probably some trick behind kakusu's jutsu to allow him to perform jutsus of so many different affinities and with so much power.

[Abdula]

Okay let me make it simple for you. Naruto can never learn a katon, thats probably true. Heck I doubt Naruto will ever learn a second element, he is not the type i.e. he's an idiot. Anyway I don't think its impossible to use an element if you don't have an affinity for it, however if you don't you will be limited to very basic, low level techniques. Beyond that it seems different elements have different skill sets, meaning you'll probably be able to learn a low level water or earth technique even if you don't have an affinity but elements like fire and especially wind and lightning are impossible to use without an affinity.


Having sharingan doesn't mean he can use every element, as was said early on by Lee and others, you can't copy something with the sharingan if you yourself aren't capable of it. Good example, even though Sasuke copied Lee's taijutsu he had to train for weeks before he could use it. If you can't control wind element then naturally you can't copy a wind technique and its already been stated that sharingan can't copy kekkai genkais.

Simply being able to use multiple elements doesn't mean you can combine them to create your own element. That is a kekkai genkai/bloodline limit and Haku's ice, for example, was a bloodline limit, something only people from his clan could do. The First's Mokuton is also a kekkai genkai that Yamato inherited when Oro injected him with The First's genes.

I thought you were talking about special jounin. Its actually a rank, above chunin and below jounin. Anyway Kakuzu's abilities will be explained, and please never mention filler characters. I so hated when they did that with her, its was obvious they were simply copying Kakuzu's gimmick. In fact nothing in that last filler arc was original.


-Oh and Jessper, barring an appearance in a future filler episode, you will never see Neji again:p

[ASSpirine]

That's what I'm implying, I don't understand where people get the idea that Kakashi has affinity to 3 or 4 different elements. It has never been said for so far I know.

Kekke genkais can't be copied, that I know. Also that taijutsu may be copied, but if you lack the speed, you're nothing with it, that's what Lee basically said. But not able to copy certain ninjutsu's because of the element is something I'm not familiar with.

[Abdula]

Well that depends on your interpretation of the word copy. In essence the sharingan copies everything it sees, meaning it breaks down and analyzes every technique it sees so that the user would then be able to do it. If the user is incapable of doing the technique, whether its because of a lack of speed, strength, chakra, kekkai genkai or elemental affinity then they wouldn't be able to do it themselves, which means they can't, uh, copy it. I hope you understand what I'm saying.


Also I think the only elements Kakashi can use are lightning and water. Fire was only used in filler and to my knowledge the only time we've seen him use earth is the head hunter jutsu he used on Sasuke which, in my book, is too low level to count and when he hid underground during the bell training. No the dog summoning doesn't count either.

[Buffalobiian]

It all comes down to which techniques are "basic" and performable, and which ones are impossible without a natural talent. To Kakashi's merit, he's commonly remembered as "Kakashi the copy ninja", and less remembered as the "User of 1000 techniques".

How many different elements do you think he's used? ;)

[lilphatboi88]

Just that he's got to make sure every technique hits/counts, unlike our friend in the orange jump suit.

lol that just cracks me up. our in the orange jump suit.





-Oh and Jessper, barring an appearance in a future filler episode, you will never see Neji again:p

Dude, what's that supposed to mean?

[Archangel]

To Kakashi's merit, he's commonly remembered as "Kakashi the copy ninja", and less remembered as the "User of 1000 techniques".How many different elements do you think he's used? ;)

That's probably and exaggeration but even if it's true there's always the light and dark manipulation plus the nimpo jutsu so if you add the 3 elements we know he can use that should be enough for 1000 different jutsus.


Also I think the only elements Kakashi can use are lightning and water. Fire was only used in filler and to my knowledge the only time we've seen him use earth is the head hunter jutsu he used on Sasuke which, in my book, is too low level to count and when he hid underground during the bell training. No the dog summoning doesn't count either.

I still don't think you can use an element you don't have an affinity to., but lets go with your theory for a moment.

I'll give you that the headhunter jutsu isn't an high level jutsu but Summoning Technique: Earth Release: Tracking Fang Technique (http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Summoning_Technique:_Earth_Release:_Tracking_Fang_ Technique) is a level B jutsu according to naruto wikia. Even if you ignore the grade you have to admit it's a pretty powerful jutsu, for it to catch zabuza so easily and without him noticing it until the final moment.

[Buffalobiian]

I still don't think you can use an element you don't have an affinity to., but lets go with your theory for a moment.


I thought it was pretty clear when Kakashi said

"You shouldn't be able to use techniques of that level unless you have an affinity for it"

to mean

"You should be able to use techniques to some level even if you don't have an affinity for it."

[Archangel]

No, what he said was that such power should only be achieved if you had that element as your main affinity

Like kakashi, who can use earth and water jutsus but his most powerful techniques will always be electric jutsus because that's his main affinity

[lilphatboi88]

what he really was trying to say was, how can he use all these high level element powers when a ninja should normally be confined to 2? Either he's super powerful, or like he said, there must be a trick to how he's doing it.

[Abdula]

Summoning Technique: Earth Release: Tracking Fang Technique (http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Summoning_Technique:_Earth_Release:_Tracking_Fang_ Technique) is a level B jutsu according to naruto wikia. Even if you ignore the grade you have to admit it's a pretty powerful jutsu, for it to catch zabuza so easily and without him noticing it until the final moment.
Yes but you're completely ignoring the summoning part of that technique and regardless of whatever else is in the name, summoning is a ninja art that doesn't require any elemental recomposition. Secondly he used a scroll

No, what he said was that such power should only be achieved if you had that element as your main affinity

Like kakashi, who can use earth and water jutsus but his most powerful techniques will always be electric jutsus because that's his main affinity
Exactly.

[darkmetal505]

Actually we have no idea how it works, so I think we should just take things at face value...

[Sam98034]

Aren't you guys forgetting something? Didn't Kakashi say that it can take like 20 years to master an element. You could probably learn an element that wasn't your affinity, but it would take even longer. You could also probably learn all the elements...but you can't live long enough. The reason most Jounins don't have more than two is probably because it would take so long to master three, and by that time you might be kind of old ya know?

And did they just introduce hollows?

[Abdula]

Actually the 20 years comment was just in regard to Naruto. Kakashi said this training would have taken him about 20 years if he wasn't using the clones, whereas Sasuke learned chidori in a month.

[Buffalobiian]

Actually the 20 years comment was just in regard to Naruto. Kakashi said this training would have taken him about 20 years if he wasn't using the clones, whereas Sasuke learned chidori in a month.

Just Naruto? Probably, but I'd think normal ninjas would be closer to the 20 year mark than the 1 month mark. Besides being a genius, Sasuke also has his Sharingan, so he didn't have to find out the method himself, ie he could see how it's done. Naruto was taught how to do the Rasengan as well, but he had to discover the actual method (how to make the chakra flow) himself, which was the hard part. (though he DID do it in a week, so bad example).

Either way, time is definitely a factor, and it's not a small one neither. That's all I'm saying.

[DarthEnderX]

This is crazy, lots of characters have used multiple elements. And not just the sharingan users. The 3rd did also.

Its obviously all a matter of time and talent.

The only thing that isn't obvious now is if its possible to use ALL 5. At first I assumed yes, but since they just introduced elemental weaknesses, I now wonder. After all if one element is your affinity, does that mean they have an ineptitude with the element that their affinity is weak against against, or the element that is weak against their affinity?


What Jounin exam? There is no Jounin exam and the idea of an exam to become a jounin is really stupid. Firstly it wouldn't be some genin kids taking the exam and I'm absolutely sure no village would be pulling their chunins off of missions to have some stupid exam. Secondly I doubt you could properly assess whether someone has what it takes to be a Jounin based on some stupid exam.I'd just like to point out that the chuunin exam was full of adults. The second point makes perfect sense though.

[Assertn]

Yamato's affinity is both earth and water, and earth > water

[Abdula]

I'd just like to point out that the chuunin exam was full of adults.

No not really but my point wasn't about their age but how important their roles are in the village. Genins are just fodder who for the most part only go on D ranked missions whereas chunins do C and B ranked missions which are alot more dangerous and alot more important to the village. So they couldn't forgo those missions to have an exam.

[Kraco]

I suppose the Jounin must be able to coordinate the actions of multiple teams if necessary and know a great deal of the world, strategy and tactics. It's not impossible they would have some sort of an exam to make sure no Jounin would be lacking some details before given a mission or placed in a situation where such a hole in education could prove fatal. However, I reckon it would be an exam of knowledge and wits rather than combat, because combat ability would have already been proven many times over in practice.

From what we have seen these people aren't worked like slaves, so taking a few days to go through an exam would be no big deal. It wouldn't need to be such theatrics as the chuunin exam was.

[Kagari]

One way that I look at it is that if you have a strong affinity to an element, your techniques will not only become more powerful, but you'll be able to create that element and manipulate it in more ways than one.

Kisame obviously has a strong Water affinity, and was able to create a tidal wave where there was no water present. Kakashi used water techniques against Zabuza, but he was simply manipulating the water by using the same jutsu Zabuza was.

He couldn't create mist/water himself, I don't think.

Look at the hokage battle! They were able to create earth walls, tidal waves, huge fire blasts...We still don't know enough about elemental jutsus to claim what is required for people to use them.

Someone like Sasuke, with fire as an element, can make fire from his throat (or stomach, or wherever it comes from). But i doubt he could manipulate wind the way Naruto is learning.

[lilphatboi88]

if people really can learn all 5 elements, i think that would be pretty dumb.

[iMUSTbeTHEdevil]

if people really can learn all 5 elements, i think that would be pretty dumb.

Define "Learn"

[lilphatboi88]

Use and master, I guess

[Marik]

[Nipponsei] NARUTO Shippuuden ED07 Single - Long Kiss Good Bye [HALCALI].zip (http://tracker.minglong.org/torrents/%5BNipponsei%5D_NARUTO_Shippuuden_ED07_Single_-_Long_Kiss_Good_Bye_%5BHALCALI%5D.zip.torrent)

Latest ending has been released.

[DarthEnderX]

I think it would be odd if given the time and effort you couldn't learn all 5 elements.

It'd be like saying "if you learn to ride a bike, you can't learn to drive a car after that."

[Death BOO Z]

well, you can learn to drive all types of vehicles (not really all, submarine, space shuttle, types of fighter plains), but you can't win all the F1 races, the tour-the-France and motocross races...

[lilphatboi88]

I think it would be odd if given the time and effort you couldn't learn all 5 elements.

It'd be like saying "if you learn to ride a bike, you can't learn to drive a car after that."

So the way you interpreted my post was, if a ninja learns to walk, he can't learn jump? Moreover, learn to talk or learn to listen?

[DarthEnderX]

well, you can learn to drive all types of vehicles (not really all, submarine, space shuttle, types of fighter plains), but you can't win all the F1 races, the tour-the-France and motocross races...I agree, but the argument isn't "can you kick ass at all 5 elements" its "can you use all 5 elements".

And I say, yes, with enough time and effort, you could learn all 5, unless there's an opposite of your affinity element that you are somehow banned from using.

Obviously, your gonna kick ass with your primary element, and be progressively weaker with each element you learn after that.


I suspect the element wheel goes in a circle for people. I'm just not sure which direction it goes. Where you go one way around the wheel, and the further you get from your affinity element, the harder it is to learn that element, until you get all the way around to either the element weak againsts your affinity, or the element strong against it, and it's either the most difficult to learn, or its impossible.

[Abdula]

Its not HXH, Darth, so just forget it.

[lilphatboi88]

The only case you're thinking of is the avatar from Avatar: The Last Airbender

[Buffalobiian]

I suspect the element wheel goes in a circle for people. I'm just not sure which direction it goes. Where you go one way around the wheel, and the further you get from your affinity element, the harder it is to learn that element, until you get all the way around to either the element weak againsts your affinity, or the element strong against it, and it's either the most difficult to learn, or its impossible.

According to that, Sasuke should perform wind techniques better than lightning, according to the wheel: fire>wind>lightning - which is not the case.

[ASSpirine]

I don't know if we'll ever find out... I still stand by my point of view, time can only tell.
I hope Kishi has explained it already

[DarthEnderX]

According to that, Sasuke should perform wind techniques better than lightning, according to the wheel: fire>wind>lightning - which is not the case.Hmm, thats true.

Although...it could just be that he never learned a wind technique. Just because you have an affinity, doesn't mean you would have to learn them in that order. I mean, we all know that the first elemental techniques Sasuke learned were fire techniques, but his lightning techniques are more powerful, which means he's probably a lightning type. So if you don't have to learn your affinity first, you wouldn't have to learn them in any particular order.

Maybe Sasuke's wind techniques WOULD be stronger than his fire techniques, but he's never bothered to learn a wind technique.

[Buffalobiian]

I'll leave your theory as is, since it's on unproven grounds anyway (hence not wrong, as far as I know). It'd mean that Naruto's next best element would be lightning as well :p

[Abdula]

Darth I have no idea what makes you think people would simply be able to learn other elements. One it would be incredibly stupid and two it would completely defeat the purpose of having elemental affinities and the whole element wheel in the first place.

Kishi added in this little wrinkle to make his rock-paper-scissors system a bit more interesting. What your suggesting is a complete contradiction to what we've seen thus far. Anyway thats enough about that, besides I can't think of any show that had an elemental system similar to this, that simply allowed people to learn whatever they wanted.

Although...it could just be that he never learned a wind technique. Just because you have an affinity, doesn't mean you would have to learn them in that order. I mean, we all know that the first elemental techniques Sasuke learned were fire techniques, but his lightning techniques are more powerful, which means he's probably a lightning type. So if you don't have to learn your affinity first, you wouldn't have to learn them in any particular order.

I'll say this just for argument's sake. Fire is Sasuke's main affinity, you say his lightning techniques are more powerful but he only has one powerful lightning technique, chidori. Which doesn't compare to Kakashi's raikiri since lightning is Kakashi's main element. His chidori seems more powerful than his fire attacks but thats just because lightning > fire.

[Yukimura]

Way back in the chuunin finals (see chapter 113 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/113/07/) or episode 66-67) Kakashi remarked that the reason he'd trained Sasuke was because he was "the same type as me". He says this at the same time Sasuke revealed that he'd learned Chidori. Then later it's Kakashi who explains what chakra elements are to Naruto and mentions that he's got a lightning affinity. One might draw from these two events that Sasuke's natural affinity is also lightning. If that is the case it could be part of the reason for Sasuke's initial difficulties with learning the Fireball Technique since learning to manipulate your natural element is supposed to be the easiest.

From what Yamato said most of the Uchiha were Fire types but if Sasuke wasn't then it makes sense that he would have had a harder time learning Fire jutsu than other Uchiha members.

But it's also possible that Kishi just makes everything up with absolutely no thoughts given to plot consistency in which case Sasuke's elemental affinity must be fire because he used fire techniques first and because if someone says most x's are y then it really means that all x's are y.

@Abdula: Where are you getting lightning > fire from? The 'circle' of strengths and weaknesses doesn't seem to have any meaning for non adjacent elements. According to the chart Fire should be neutral compared to Lightning and Earth and Lightning neutral compared to Fire and Water.

[Abdula]

initial difficulties with learning the Fireball Technique
Initial difficulties? He learned to use the fireball technique by himself in a few days after only haven been taught the seals by his father when he was what, seven. Thats nothing like Kakashi teaching him to use chidori over the course of a month.


But it's also possible that Kishi just makes everything up with absolutely no thoughts given to plot consistency
Thats true enough. Lol, I just got it. Anyway as far as Kakashi and Sasuke goes, Kakashi also mentioned that Sasuke was a genius and managed to acquire a second element a lot earlier than most people do, which is around Jonin level.


@Abdula: Where are you getting lightning > fire from? Nowhere its just my opinion, and I wasn't referring to relationship between the elements based on the chart. I was just suggesting that as far as the damage each element does Wind seems to be the greatest, followed by lightning, fire, earth and water.

[Yukimura]

From the way his father reacted it seemed that he was expecting Sasuke to do much better than he did on his first try. And was it ever explicitly stated how much time it took Sasuke to get a handle on Chidori before he switched to training for super speed?

[Kraco]

Yeah. If I remember anything at all from those episodes, it seems to have left me with an impression Sasuke wasn't progressing particularly fast. But then again, it might have been only because he was compared to his genius brother.

[Abdula]

Okay, to be fair his father was comparing him to Itachi (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/223/08/). A broken freak of nature who managed to kill his entire clan, including his father, at age 13. Anyway he was undoubtedly impressed when Sasuke managed to do it, and I went and checked, a day later.

As far as how long it took Sasuke to get a handle on lightning, one translation I read had it at 2 weeks, the translation at Onemanga (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/319/07/) says "Quite a large number of days"

Oh and since we're talking about the anime, DB's translation was " When I taught chidori to Sasuke, a true genius, it took him several long days to get lightning element down."

[Sam98034]

I'm sure the third could use 3+ elements. They did call him the professor correct? And he knew many techniques. I'm pretty sure you could possibly learn all 5 if you were very very good. The different elements might represent something like different learning styles. Some people need to see it, some people prefer reading the manual. It could be something like being a pro football player/CEO of your own company/Mathematics PhD /Psychology PhD/MD. It's not really impossible, but see if you can do it. And having any two of those would be really rare.

[Buffalobiian]

I'm sure the third could use 3+ elements. They did call him the professor correct? And he knew many techniques.

He was called the professor because he "knew every single technique in Konoha." Whether that means he can perform them all to the same proficiency is another matter, We barely got any information on him though, so exactly what he could do is pretty unclear.

As for whether he could use 3+ elements, I remember him using fire and earth during the Hokage battle. I doubt Kishi had element affinities in mind back then :p

[ASSpirine]

I'm actually quite dissappointed in the fact they introduced element affinities...

[DarthEnderX]

Darth I have no idea what makes you think people would simply be able to learn other elements. One it would be incredibly stupid and two it would completely defeat the purpose of having elemental affinities and the whole element wheel in the first place.

Kishi added in this little wrinkle to make his rock-paper-scissors system a bit more interesting. What your suggesting is a complete contradiction to what we've seen thus far. Except that...its not. Kakashi comes right out and says most jounin know two elements. One of those isn't their affinity element. I don't understand how you can even argue this when its so plainly stated. Ninja can learn elements that aren't their affinity. Why would they have to stop at one extra? That makes no sense and is, as you say, "a complete contradiction" to what has been stated thus far.

If a ninja spends years learning his affinity element, then spends several more years learning a second element, what exactly is keeping them, once they know two, from working towards a third?

There's been no "barrier" from a third element stated. It doesn't exist as far as any information we've been presented is concerned.

Your entire argument basically boils down to "This building has more than one floor, therefor it must have exactly two floors."

[Abdula]

Um actually. The only reason I'm disagreeing is exactly because there actually seems to be some barrier. Based on whats been stated one would think that its possible for people to simply learn other elements but for some reason it hasn't happened. The only person I've seen that even has 3 is Kakashi and I already said why I don't count earth with him.

My argument is basically, if it was possible we would have seen it already.

[DarthEnderX]

Okay, I find that reasoning specious, but alright.

After all, Kakashi says most jounin know two elements, but how many have we seen that have used two elements? Two? But we've seen a hell of a lot more than two jounin.

On the flip side of that, is that there's only a few characters in the show who I would say have lived long enough to learn more than 2 elements. The 3rd, the Sannin, and various Akatsuki members.

[Abdula]

Okay, I find that reasoning specious, but alright.
Specious. Lol.


After all, Kakashi says most jounin know two elements, but how many have we seen that have used two elements? Two? But we've seen a hell of a lot more than two jounin.

On the flip side of that, is that there's only a few characters in the show who I would say have lived long enough to learn more than 2 elements. The 3rd, the Sannin, and various Akatsuki members.
True, after it was mentioned I fully expected to see people busting out multiple elements but the closest thing I've seen to that is Kakuzu and we know why he can use more than two.

[DarthEnderX]

Well, it kinda did. Since in pretty much the next fight in the series after Kakashi mentioned it, Asuma who we know is a Wind type, buts out that fire jutsu.