Is EA's SecuRom/DRM really that bad?

[Animeniax]

Far Cry 2 and Dead Space are now out and I want to get them for the PC, but I'm reading about SecuROM/DRM that installs with the games and it's turning me off. I'd buy them on X360 but I can't play FPSes on X360, so Far Cry 2 is out. Is EA's SecuRom/DRM really that bad?

[Koyuki]

Depends. It's kinda gay. You can install the game 5 times. You can get the install back if you properly uninstall the game. You also get malware, but it's possible to remove it.

I usually get all my games through Steam, it's hassle free. Only negative is that you need to download the game, but only necessary the first time. You can burn a backup of the game files.

[Animeniax]

With Far Cry 2, STEAM delivers secuROM with the game, so you can't avoid it. As far as hassle free, that's only if you have a high speed connection, which I don't.

[Animeniax]

Wow, reading up on SecuROM, it seems BioShock for the PC installs it, which means I have SecuROM running on my PC right now! Well, first thing I'm going to do is reinstall my OS and make an image, then from now on when I install games with SecuROM, I'll finish the game and re-image my PC to the pre-SecuROM state. Otherwise I will find a pirated copy of the game and just play that.

[darkshadow]

the bioshock, crysis securom's aren't that bad, pretty low level stuff, its pretty much every title since Mass Effect which got the utterly shite SecuRom.
Also as far as protections go, they don't install/activate themselfs until the initial run of the software, so if you really want to, just buy far cry 2 and dead space and crack them before running.

[Animeniax]

When you say "crack" them, do you mean look for cracked executables online?

[darkshadow]

...yes...

[Animeniax]

And if those aren't available...?

[darkshadow]

They are always available, otherwise just wait a bit, the newer securom was cracked a few days after the release of mass effect, and it has been the same version ever since.
Far cry 2 was cracked right away btw ( yesterday).
The only protection that remained uncracked for like a year, was StarForce 3, but that protection was so aggressive, publishers stopped using it after a few titles.

[Animeniax]

When you say that SecuROM is cracked for FarCry2, what exactly is circumvented with the crack? You still have to activate with a serial number. So how does that defeat the DRM?

No-CD cracking is cool, but I'm mostly concerned with rootkit type applets that alter your OS, hide themselves, or upload info to servers, especially when you can't remove them without reinstalling the OS.

[darkshadow]

the protection is inside the exe, a crack rips it out, thus the protection can't activate/install itself.
The serial number is nothing more then a check, its not the protection itself, also far cry 2 doesn't use a serial upon install.

[Animeniax]

Without the protection, can you still activate the game? The cracks I found (on gcw) say that activation is still required to play the game. Isn't SecuROM the activation tool?

[darkshadow]

yes, thus those cracks don't really crack the game then, try Razor1911's crack, its a full one.

edit:
just checked the sites, and they dont seem to have the crack listed yet, so i upped it for you:
http://www.mediafire.com/?iozztytti1m

[Buffalobiian]

Hearing about this is really putting me off too. So it's on all FarCry 2 installs? It seems Ubisoft is distributing it, so EA just sells its DRM to people? :(

[darkshadow]

No, the protection is called SecuRom and its owned by sony.

[Buffalobiian]

No, the protection is called SecuRom and its owned by sony.

*sigh*. Them again....

I was hoping to play Bioshock too :(

I remember that I had older problems burning older games too, and those didn't have this DRM thing. And my COD4 backup can't be recognised as a legit copy anyway. Why the move?

Edit: is there a list (official or unofficial?) list of past and upcoming games that'll use SecuRom? I'm dearly hoping Fallout 3 isn't on that list.

[Y]

No, it isn't. Not even the most ridiculous and draconian DRM methods are in any way intrusive enough to justify avoiding purchases because of their inclusion.

[Buffalobiian]

No, it isn't. Not even the most ridiculous and draconian DRM methods are in any way intrusive enough to justify avoiding purchases because of their inclusion.

You also get malware, but it's possible to remove it

So does it screw around with your security or not? I'm not so caring about the activating 5 times thing or whatever. Just as long as it doesn't screw me over.

[Animeniax]

No, it isn't. Not even the most ridiculous and draconian DRM methods are in any way intrusive enough to justify avoiding purchases because of their inclusion.
I disagree, especially when it comes to the new version of SecuROM. From what I'm reading, it includes rootkit-type backdoor access for programmers to run verification code that can morph to prevent detection, reverse engineering, and removal. The game manufacturer can add whatever code they want in a trojan-horse fashion, allowing them to upload usage data or other data to their servers. Hackers can target this code to gain access to your system. You can't remove the DRM software even if you remove the game. If you don't have internet access, you don't get to play.

I do agree that some games are too amazing to pass up, so one option is to buy the console version instead. The other option is what I plan on trying, buying the game, then running a cracked version of the exe so that the DRM never runs. As I learn more about SecuROM, if it makes me more paranoid, I plan to do a fresh install of Windows with patches, then image my PC, then install a SecuROM'd game, then re-image my PC after I finish the game.

[Animeniax]

*sigh*. Them again....

I was hoping to play Bioshock too :(

I remember that I had older problems burning older games too, and those didn't have this DRM thing. And my COD4 backup can't be recognised as a legit copy anyway. Why the move?

Edit: is there a list (official or unofficial?) list of past and upcoming games that'll use SecuRom? I'm dearly hoping Fallout 3 isn't on that list.
As ds stated, Bioshock has an older, less intrusive version of SecuROM, so it's worth installing and playing. Older, even less intrusive versions of SecuROM only prevented copying, but there were easy workarounds for it.

I need to check out what games will come with the new SecuROM, as the list seems to be growing. I'm not sure about Fallout 3.

[Buffalobiian]

I do agree that some games are too amazing to pass up, so one option is to buy the console version instead. The other option is what I plan on trying, buying the game, then running a cracked version of the exe so that the DRM never runs. As I learn more about SecuROM, if it makes me more paranoid, I plan to do a fresh install of Windows with patches, then image my PC, then install a SecuROM'd game, then re-image my PC after I finish the game.

My problem is that I play games really slowly, so it ends up sitting in my computer for months on end before I finish it. So the reimaging solution wouldn't be suitable :(.

Why can't they do this shit without stuffing your computer. Is it really so hard?

[Animeniax]

Evidently it is, as even games with the new SecuROM have been hacked, so companies will find newer and more obtrusive ways to try to protect their products from copying and illegal distribution. Unfortunately the hackers are almost always smarter (plus they don't have deadlines and less stress) than the software designers, so the ones who will pay are honest customers who just want to buy and play a game.

[Xrlderek]

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/9471/1210184911934xv3.png (http://imageshack.us)
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/1210184911934xv3.png/1/w697.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img139/1210184911934xv3.png/1/)

I think this picture fits well. Anyway, I've installed The Sims 2 Bon Voyage and Spore, using no-cd cracks. A folder named SecuROM is in my registry under HKEY_CURRENT_USER/software. I guess this means I have it? I'm fairly sure I've only used the no-cd cracks to launch the games though, I guess I must have ran the original exe files once before applying the cracks, for whatever reason.

[Animeniax]

The version of SecuROM in that registry key might be from other instances of SecuROM, since it has been around a while as an anti-copying feature on CDs. The new SecuROM versions are supposed to be difficult to locate in the registry.

I'm still trying to verify if SecuROM only installs with the exe of the game, since I've read part of the app's code is saved in dll files as well. If not, then using cracked exes won't prevent SecuROM from running on your PC.

Great picture btw, describes the situation perfectly.

[darkshadow]

paul.dll, the cracks also prevent it from being used, otherwise it would be impossible to run the game at all.
And Y, StarForce 3 was actually destroying legit customers pc's, it destroyed my optical drive, but with other it did even more damage, if it wasn't cracked i would've never played splinter cell chaos theory again (which i bought!).
Thankfully they stopped using that protection after awhile, I think the last big title using it was Colin Mcrae: Dirt. Though they included documentation with the game on how to remove it.
Also StarForce 3, prevented games to be played on 64bit systems, thus after it was cracked, splinter cell : ct was suddenly playable on a 64bit OS.

[Buffalobiian]

Where would you safely get these cracks. I really don't want to put my antivirus to the test.

By the way, this stuff about it not installing unless you run the official exe, does that mean as long as you never ran the uncracked game, uninstalling the game later will remove everything?

[Xelbair]

Well - if you don't use uncracked game it wont install, so there is nothing to remove. Sadly i had to crack my dead space(i would bought ps3 vers but its nearly 2x more expansive than pc vers). try looking at torrent sites, reloaded, razor, avenged, hatred, hoodloom, unleashed are safe groups, watch out for skidrow - there are alot fakes. I know from expirience.
Also i prefer to play games with no-cd/no-dvd cracks because my dvd is occupied with metallica's cd(mostly "Kill 'em All") and i'm too lazy to change cds.

[Animeniax]

You still use your PC to listen to CDs? You could just rip the CDs and make mp3s and listen to those.

I got Dead Space for the Xbox360, but I didn't know the PC version has SecuROM. I got Far Cry 2 for the PC but darkshadow sent me the cracked exe so I will use that to circumvent the DRM.

[Xelbair]

MP3 quality is very bad... especially on good headphones... yea i'm bit audiophile.

[Buffalobiian]

I've been reading around for people's opinion on Far Cry 2's DRM. It's funny how in contrast to our discussions here, a lot of people are actually bitching about the 5 installs on 3 computer thing, and how they "can't freely use their product" like they used to. The way I see it, that's the least of your problems.

What's more confusing is how some say "Far Cry 2 will use the same SecuRom that Spore used, yet you can have 5 installs and get refunded them if you uninstall."

As far as I know, that wasn't the case with Spore, correct? I guess all this is kind of irrelevant since I'm intending to crack it anyway.

Regarding that, cracks still let you play online multiplayer as long as your serial key is legal, and you get an updated crack for every update you apply, right?

/Off-topic: Far Cry 2 is getting some pretty good reviews. Most are applauding its pioneering FPSxSandbox RPG and mostly smart AI. Bad points are lack of enemy-type variations and repetitive mission select interface.

[Dark Dragon]

For those of you that had accidentally installed Securom and want to remove it, this website (http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?threadid=203200) had pretty good instruction on how to do so.

I'm happy i finally got that damn thing off my computer, most likely gonna just get crack from now on or just not buy any EA games altogether.

[Buffalobiian]

I googled "game protection list" and went to the fileforum's index here.

http://fileforums.com/showthread.php?t=78998

There I found:

Title: F.E.A.R. - First Encounter Assault Recon
Developer/Publisher: Sierra
Country/Language: US/English
Media Type: 1 DVD
Copy Protection: SecuROM 7.00.00.0107
Scanned with: A-Ray Scanner v2.0.2.3

WHAT!

It's been around since 2005? :(

Edit: I don't think that list is right. For one, windows search didn't find paul.dll

[Dark Dragon]

I googled "game protection list" and went to the fileforum's index here.

http://fileforums.com/showthread.php?t=78998

There I found:

Title: F.E.A.R. - First Encounter Assault Recon
Developer/Publisher: Sierra
Country/Language: US/English
Media Type: 1 DVD
Copy Protection: SecuROM 7.00.00.0107
Scanned with: A-Ray Scanner v2.0.2.3

WHAT!

It's been around since 2005? :(

Edit: I don't think that list is right. For one, windows search didn't find paul.dll

Yeah it has been around for a while, but the earlier version weren't potential harmful to your PC. I think securom started becoming bad with the bioshock pc release, but even then it was still relatively tame compare to the newest version in spore.

[Buffalobiian]

Yeah? Good news then, sort of...for me.

I ran across another thing called StarForce. I gather both starforce and securoms are rootkits?

btw, most updated list I could find of games with SecuRom:

http://reclaimyourgame.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=45&Itemid=11

[Dark Dragon]

Yeah? Good news then, sort of...for me.

I ran across another thing called StarForce. I gather both starforce and securoms are rootkits?

btw, most updated list I could find of games with SecuRom:

http://reclaimyourgame.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=45&Itemid=11

Both starforce and securoms are rootkits even though there some peoples that will deny it.

From what i've read, Starforce is suppose to be a lot worse than securom so i would suggest for you to avoid any game that come with it.

[Animeniax]

Yeah I don't think Starforce is used at all anymore because it was so intrusive and caused problems with other applications and bricked optical drives.

According to ds and everything I've read, the earlier versions (Bioshock, FEAR, etc) were the weaker versions of SecuROM. The notorious versions that act like rootkits are in Spore, Mass Effect, and a lot of new games like Far Cry 2.

I wonder how long before console games start using this technology, requiring you to be online to activate or run checks on the installation. It wouldn't be so bad because the OS is stripped down on consoles, but just the implementation of DRM pisses me off.

[Dark Dragon]

Yeah I don't think Starforce is used at all anymore because it was so intrusive and caused problems with other applications and bricked optical drives.

According to ds and everything I've read, the earlier versions (Bioshock, FEAR, etc) were the weaker versions of SecuROM. The notorious versions that act like rootkits are in Spore, Mass Effect, and a lot of new games like Far Cry 2.

I wonder how long before console games start using this technology, requiring you to be online to activate or run checks on the installation. It wouldn't be so bad because the OS is stripped down on consoles, but just the implementation of DRM pisses me off.

This is just a really stupid way to handle piracy as a whole. It is pretty much a proven fact that DRM does not even hinder piracy since both Spore and Farcry 2 was leaked, cracked and torrented almost a week prior to their respective release dates. If anything, such a shitty protection system that cause problems for customers who bought the product will only serve to hinder sales.

The best method i've seen so far in term of preventing piracy is creating online content that is attractive enough to force peoples to buy your games. Steam, Stardock and Blizzard's Battlenet does a wonderful job in regard to that aspect, more companies need to start using those type of business model instead of relying on this DRM trash.

I don't think we have to start worrying about console DRM just yet. The whole piracy issue on the 360 is rather limited, in fact i believe the new 60 gigs 360s are not even hackable because Microsoft altered the inside.

[Y]

I disagree, especially when it comes to the new version of SecuROM. From what I'm reading, it includes rootkit-type backdoor access for programmers to run verification code that can morph to prevent detection, reverse engineering, and removal. The game manufacturer can add whatever code they want in a trojan-horse fashion, allowing them to upload usage data or other data to their servers. Hackers can target this code to gain access to your system. You can't remove the DRM software even if you remove the game. If you don't have internet access, you don't get to play.


A bunch of scary and ineffectual buzzwords. What harm does this actually do to your computer? Starforce's security risks were blown unbelievably far out of proportion (to the degree where people would post about it as though it devoured your soul on installation) and I have no reason to suspect SecuROM is any different. Copy protection that prevents you from removing it easily? Well, fucking duh.


The best method i've seen so far in term of preventing piracy is creating online content that is attractive enough to force peoples to buy your games. Steam, Stardock and Blizzard's Battlenet does a wonderful job in regard to that aspect, more companies need to start using those type of business model instead of relying on this DRM trash.


This, however, is obviously the superior way to handle game piracy. In fact, Steam is usually easier and faster than torrenting a game.

[Animeniax]

A bunch of scary and ineffectual buzzwords. What harm does this actually do to your computer? Starforce's security risks were blown unbelievably far out of proportion (to the degree where people would post about it as though it devoured your soul on installation) and I have no reason to suspect SecuROM is any different. Copy protection that prevents you from removing it easily? Well, fucking duh.What you say is mostly true, and it's easy enough to dismiss most of the concerns, but the bad guys rely on this sort of apathy and dismissal so they can do what they want, kind of like how Bush runs the country. I imagine a large part of the frustration is in principle only, and the security concerns are just tacked on to give the complaints some meat.

If you don't mind that software companies install something on your PC that you can't remove or alter even after you remove their product, then that's how you roll. It's like that uncomfortable wedgie feeling you probably still have even after taking off your super-tight wranglers.


The best method i've seen so far in term of preventing piracy is creating online content that is attractive enough to force peoples to buy your games. Steam, Stardock and Blizzard's Battlenet does a wonderful job in regard to that aspect, more companies need to start using those type of business model instead of relying on this DRM trash.Unfortunately not everyone is online and can download large amounts of content. With bandwidth usage-based fees coming to ISPs soon, how much more are you paying to get this online content? I currently have a copy of the Orange Box that I can't play because of network usage restrictions where I'm at. You think I'll buy another Valve game instead of just downloading a hacked copy? And how long do you think it will be before the online content is available for free via torrent?

[Y]

What you say is mostly true, and it's easy enough to dismiss most of the concerns, but the bad guys rely on this sort of apathy and dismissal so they can do what they want, kind of like how Bush runs the country. I imagine a large part of the frustration is in principle only, and the security concerns are just tacked on to give the complaints some meat.

If you don't mind that software companies install something on your PC that you can't remove or alter even after you remove their product, then that's how you roll. It's like that uncomfortable wedgie feeling you probably still have even after taking off your super-tight wranglers.

I don't think this is a bad-guy scenario. SecuROM's problems, like conflicting with Process Explorer, were largely unintentional and fixed in updated versions. I wouldn't crucify them for that any more then I'd crucify them for releasing a buggy game. You can remove SecuROM (although I believe Starforce's removal tool was poorly constructed) and since it became such a media whipping boy EA makes sure to send out fucking press releases when games use it. I don't think it's terribly onerous or harmful. I've experienced more harmful bugs in game coding then I have in copy protection, and I'm unlikely to crusade against videogames any time soon.

[Animeniax]

I don't want to sound like I'm defending the DRM-doomsayers and I definitely want to support game developers. As a failed programmer myself, I know how tedious and difficult coding can be so I want programmers and designers to be compensated for their work, but I also don't want any hassles installing, playing, then uninstalling a game I bought.

I think I got a bit caught up in the anti-SecuROM hysteria, but the original purpose of the thread was to find out all I could about SecuROM to see if it was worth skipping games like Far Cry 2 just to avoid it. I read a lot of reviews, mostly complaints from people on the anti-establishment bandwagon. The input from you guys on the forum has helped too.

I think the answer is still up in the air, since I'm not a privacy-nut and I'm not a corporate shill. I bought a copy of Far Cry 2 anyway.

[Dark Dragon]

Unfortunately not everyone is online and can download large amounts of content. With bandwidth usage-based fees coming to ISPs soon, how much more are you paying to get this online content? I currently have a copy of the Orange Box that I can't play because of network usage restrictions where I'm at. You think I'll buy another Valve game instead of just downloading a hacked copy? And how long do you think it will be before the online content is available for free via torrent?

I think you misunderstood what i meant. I don't mean that they should solely rely on an online distribution method, in fact i bought my copy of Orange Box from retail. I understand that not everyone has a readily available high speed internet line, i was suggesting something along the line of those companies that offer better online contents that attract people so they would buy a legit copy to play online instead of pirating it.

Online contents has already been available in the form of private servers and such, but there is a drastic different between playing on a private server with a handful of peoples and playing on something like battlenet. The point is to do things that will help reduce piracy so developers are not forced to implement things such as securom which i my opinion so far has not help with the piracy problem one bit.

Piracy is something that i don't think will ever disappear. Protection software are cracked as fast as they are released. Lawsuits are long, costly and even if they do succeed there are always new pirates to replace those that get taken out. I just think that most of these direct strategies have proved to be rather ineffective, so instead of wasting more time and money these companies can work on providing experiences that you simply cannot get by playing alone.

[Animeniax]

Oh right, I misunderstood where you were going with that. In the end I think that is the best way to appeal to fans to make them want to buy in, instead of forcing them to jump through hoops to play a game.

[Buffalobiian]

Well, on a sightly different topic, how is SecuRom's security issues different from the BMG Rootkit?

I'll own up now, I'm in the paranoia band regarding SecuRom since the BMG incident, though it didn't affect me personally.


-------------------------------------------------------------
Edit: ends up the difference is the access level. SecuRom installs on Ring level 3 while BMG software and StarForce installed at 0 (aka root) access, allowing full rights over the system.

What sucks about researching this topic is sorting out which guys have facts, which guys have opinions, and which guys have brains.

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Edit2: So main issues with SecuRom is that upon uninstall, it leaves registry entries on the system regarding license info that can't be deleted. This implies that it (a) may be having more rights than it should, (b) that malware may find ways to utilize these keys to their keys undeletable?

Most good comments were pre-Mass Effect though.

[Dark Dragon]

Well, on a sightly different topic, how is SecuRom's security issues different from the BMG Rootkit?

I'll own up now, I'm in the paranoia band regarding SecuRom since the BMG incident, though it didn't affect me personally.


-------------------------------------------------------------
Edit: ends up the difference is the access level. SecuRom installs on Ring level 3 while BMG software and StarForce installed at 0 (aka root) access, allowing full rights over the system.

What sucks about researching this topic is sorting out which guys have facts, which guys have opinions, and which guys have brains.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit2: So main issues with SecuRom is that upon uninstall, it leaves registry entries on the system regarding license info that can't be deleted. This implies that it (a) may be having more rights than it should, (b) that malware may find ways to utilize these keys to their keys undeletable?

Most good comments were pre-Mass Effect though.

Yeah, the main issue with the latest securom is that it just leave an irremovable entry in your registry even after you've remove all games related to securom. That kind of crap makes people nervous regardless of how "harmless" it might seem to be.

One of my earlier post in the thread contain a link that has instruction on how to remove those entries from your registry. If you really want to play games with securom, what you can do is do a regular install, remove securom and then go find a no-cd crack online.

[darkshadow]

Fallout 3:



just got off the phone with bethesda tech support, about securom install problems

the person on the phone informed me that you have to uninstall any cd writing programs or image programs like nero, roxio, sonic, alcohol, daemon tools etc and only have the default windows cd writer on your computer...Saying that securom recognizes these as piracy tools basically. They also said if this doesn't work then you have to contact securom yourself about the issue. She told me there is nothing bethesda can do about this problem because of the securom software. Basically according to the call, it is securom's fault, let them handle it. She said we will have to wait for securom to release a fix if this doesn't work so my advice is to start harassing them.

i also asked if they have been getting many calls related to these issues of not being able to install the game, she said yes naturally.

She also said these image and writing programs tell securom to read the disc incorrectly hence no wonder none of us have the real game according to securom.

i have already uninstalled my cd writing programs but securom still persists in not letting me play my game.



I have Nero on my computer and if I cannot install this game without uninstalling this perfectly legitimate piece of software, I will put everything back into the package and return it to Future Shop after letting Bethesda know what I think of them and their decision to treat me like a thief AFTER taking 62 dollars out of my pocket.

Bethesda forums. (http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=892618&st=0)

yeah....

[Kraco]

This thread has been most informative. Last year I bought Jade Empire (for PC) and this summer I thought I'd replay it (I'm not much of a gamer anyway). But it wouldn't launch (and the bloody installation takes half an hour, so it's such a bother). I couldn't figure out why, despite trying other video driver versions and anything else I could possibly come up with. Then I read this thread, downloaded a no-dvd exe, and the game launched immediately. Fucking SecuROM...

[Buffalobiian]

Edit: ends up the difference is the access level. SecuRom installs on Ring level 3 while BMG software and StarForce installed at 0 (aka root) access, allowing full rights over the system.

Then on the court file against Spore:


The operating system of a computer utilizes different parts or levels of the computer, determined by the need of the software for access and control over different aspects of the hardware or software. These parts are commonly called Ring 0, 1, 2 and 3. Ring 0 is sometimes referred to as the Kernel. The Kernel is usually used by the Operating System to run the computer and it has access to everything on the computer. Ring 3, which is the normal zone used by Software has much lower permissions. SecuROM represents that it installs itself to Ring 3 (by having a part of itself called the UA7service.exe written to Ring 3), when in fact it installs its primarily operational code to Ring 0.

Writing itself to the Kernal of the computer allows SeruCOM to have control over all other programs and processes on the computer, including equipment that computer users are legally permitted and entitled to possess (e.g., two cd/dvd drives on the computer).


Needless to say, it's unremovable, and was secretly installed. Rootkit? I think so.

I think I've found the concrete facts I've been looking for:(



And this is right on:

"The sad thing is you don't have to install a piece of software to copy it, so looking for burning software post install doesn't fix anything at all."

[David Craft]

My Biggest problem with these DRM protected games using things like Securom is that some of the 'features' are a complete violation of my computer. Its my damn computer and any program that goes and installs things I can't remove easily I consider malicious.

Also some of these games will refuse to install if you have certain software running. Like Fallout3 I believe refused to install because I have daemon tools.... a program which I use for ligament purposes (I run VMware and use it to emulate such things like Linux CDs). Again its MY computer and a game that I just payed $50 to play has no right to refuse to install... OR install stuff I can't UNinstall....

I am a software developer myself and dislike people that pirate games, however I feel no remorse AT ALL for pirating games such as these. I bought the damn things and still went and got the pirated version. Its bad when I trust some 'hackers' version as more trustworthy on my system then the original version....


Which BTW, Spore has become one of the most pirated games because of backlash to the DRM. Ironic Justice I say....


People are going to pirate software... Trying to strong arm these ppl only ends up pissing off the legitimate costumers...


~David

[animus]

Or do like I'm doing and get Fallout 3 for the 360. Hassle free, though it just won't look as good than on a nice computer.

[Animeniax]

I can't play most FPSes on the X360 and I hate playing games like Fallout3 on the console. Some games just play better with the keyboard and mouse.

[Buffalobiian]

I'm going to end up buying then cracking Fallout 3. I mainly use my PS3 for multiplayer racer/fighting games, since it's hooked up to a little CRT TV.

I'll consider Far Cry 2 as well, if the cracks work with online multiplayer. Bethesda insists that their SecuRom is only used for a disc check. While that may be true, I'm still trying to figure out if it leaves any registry entries like the fully functional versions. The registry entries supposedly only leave license information there for the more invasive install limits. Getting over the initial "You Lied!" moment, it's mainly the fact that SecuRom stuffs around with "emulation software" as well as the disk check, which honestly does nothing as you don't have to "play" to "copy" the disc anyway.

What I found interesting was that Bethesda said "we'll be using the same disc check as Oblivion". This was the first time I learned about the disk check with Oblivion. When I bought it, I burnt a copy of it with Nero (only), and I've been running off that ever since. Never picked up that it was a copy at all.

[animus]

I can't play most FPSes on the X360 and I hate playing games like Fallout3 on the console. Some games just play better with the keyboard and mouse.

Fallout 3 really isn't a FPS, it just looks like one.

[Animeniax]

Yeah, I was listing it separate from FPSes. I can't play FPSes and I prefer not to play Fallout3 type games on the console, so it's cracks or putting up with SecuROM for me, since not playing these games isn't an option.

I got FarCry 2 today. Pretty cool game so far. I'm using the Razor crack provided by darkshadow (thanks again man) and it's working great. The game reminds me of Boiling Point, this sandbox open mission game that came out in 2005 that was too buggy to be successful.

[Buffalobiian]

I got FarCry 2 today. Pretty cool game so far. I'm using the Razor crack provided by darkshadow (thanks again man) and it's working great.

Can you play online with the crack, Ani?

[Animeniax]

Doubt it, since with the crack, you don't need a serial key. No serial key probably means no online validation. I don't play games online these days.

[Buffalobiian]

Okay, thanks Ani.

I found this on wiki, so its accuracy is debatable:


The developing corporation Bethesda producing Fallout 3 in an interview assured the public that they would not be utilising any remote-activation DRM but merely the basic disc checking version. However shortly after the release customers discover that this is not true, and instead the game contains a version of SecuROM v7.36 which checks for the disc as previously stated but also has an invasive kernel-mode driver which checks for commonly used CD/DVD writing software on the system and if detected, the installation is aborted. The version sold on Steam does not have this feature.

Kernal mode, aka Ring 0, aka rootkit. Does that mean it runs (as in installs the registry entries) as soon as you try to install now? If that's the case, cracking it wouldn't keep it off your computer anymore. :(

[David Craft]

meh, probably. In that case the only hope is to install a copy (illegally downloaded) that has already had the crap ripped out of it... >_<


which checks for commonly used CD/DVD writing software on the system and if detected, the installation is aborted

So what, we aren't allowed to burn CDs/DVDs any more? For any reason? Thats bullshit! I think software companies step over the line when they won't install because another type of software is on the machine. I mean whats to stop them from saying "Can't install because our competitor's GAME is on your system! Please uninstall it before continuing!" There has got to be SOME kind of legal issues with this....

[Animeniax]

A few game publisher companies have class action lawsuits filed against them over SecuROM, all pretty recent, so no outcome yet. In the end, they'll probably make the game companies give us $5 rebates towards our next purchase of one of their games.

[animus]

meh, probably. In that case the only hope is to install a copy (illegally downloaded) that has already had the crap ripped out of it... >_<



So what, we aren't allowed to burn CDs/DVDs any more? For any reason? Thats bullshit! I think software companies step over the line when they won't install because another type of software is on the machine. I mean whats to stop them from saying "Can't install because our competitor's GAME is on your system! Please uninstall it before continuing!" There has got to be SOME kind of legal issues with this....

Sounds like someone's mad they can't burn their hentai any more.

Joking aside, you can't blame them all that much. Publishing and developing a game for the PC has huge piracy risks. They'd make way more money on the console versions, which is the way you see the industry moving. I'd imagine for PC games, atleast upwards of 40% of the people who're playing those new games/releases have it pirated.

[Kraco]

Sounds like someone's mad they can't burn their hentai any more.

Joking aside, you can't blame them all that much. .... atleast upwards of 40% of the people who're playing those new games/releases have it pirated.

It's quite ironic then that those 40% with illegal copies can use their computers normally while those who bought their games legally are punished for it, and can't anymore use their CD/DVD writers. You know, you can't anymore even buy a computer without a burner drive unless you assemble the computer by yourself and purposefully get a read only drive.

Doesn't sound like the most ingenious ever marketing plan.

[David Craft]

Sounds like someone's mad they can't burn their hentai any more.

Joking aside, you can't blame them all that much. Publishing and developing a game for the PC has huge piracy risks. They'd make way more money on the console versions, which is the way you see the industry moving. I'd imagine for PC games, atleast upwards of 40% of the people who're playing those new games/releases have it pirated.


rofl, yar... well THATS IMPORTANT ya know?


But no SERIOUSLY, I understand the situation. As I said I AM a software developer. I work for a small company but even we have to deal with these kinds of things. I do get pissed when some one uses my work I have spent countless hours working on without paying for it.
That being said, what they are doing is NOT the answer. The fact that Spore, one of the worst DRM protected games, is also the most pirated games PROVES this. Pissing off your real customers is only going to make them rebel. These companies need to find better alternatives. A big one is online material. Take StarCraft (the original) for example... That damn game STILL sells copies in stores, and its 10 years old. Sure you go pirate it but if you want to play online, well you have to have a valid key. This is a 10 year old strategy that's still working.

~Davud

[Xelbair]

Starcraft is working only thanks to the Korea, and you can play on ICCup without proper key.

I agree with you, if i can afford program/game i buy it, but sometimes companies forces me to get pirated version - for example spore - because of securom or other protections(anyone remember Starforce? i could not play legal games on that).
Not always protection is good idea - Bethesda haven't protected Oblivion, and it sold really well.

I also don't agree with animus, pc is pirated, and xbox360/ps2/psx/any other console than ps3 is not? The only platform that is not cracked is ps3, that is one of reasons that i choose to bought it, compared to xbox360.

I can't say i don't use pirated software, but if i can use legal ones i do(i have got Openoffice, AVG and gimp instead of Office, paid anti virus, photoshop). There are only 2 cases in which i regularly use pirated software, 3d Studio Max and Autocad. I love 3d graphics and i can't model without most of 3ds functions, and autocad helps with 3d and it also helps with geometry at school, thanks to this i could model, using paper, a whole castle using primitives.

[animus]

Starcraft is working only thanks to the Korea, and you can play on ICCup without proper key.

I agree with you, if i can afford program/game i buy it, but sometimes companies forces me to get pirated version - for example spore - because of securom or other protections(anyone remember Starforce? i could not play legal games on that).
Not always protection is good idea - Bethesda haven't protected Oblivion, and it sold really well.

I also don't agree with animus, pc is pirated, and xbox360/ps2/psx/any other console than ps3 is not? The only platform that is not cracked is ps3, that is one of reasons that i choose to bought it, compared to xbox360.

I can't say i don't use pirated software, but if i can use legal ones i do(i have got Openoffice, AVG and gimp instead of Office, paid anti virus, photoshop). There are only 2 cases in which i regularly use pirated software, 3d Studio Max and Autocad. I love 3d graphics and i can't model without most of 3ds functions, and autocad helps with 3d and it also helps with geometry at school, thanks to this i could model, using paper, a whole castle using primitives.

I didnt say those consoles aren't moddable, I was only talking about the PC. The amount of people that have a modded 360 compared to those playing pirated PC games are vastly different. Only a rare, I'd guess 3-5% even have a modded 360.

[Xelbair]

It depends on country, for example here, in poland, games are really expansive(typical earnings 2000 PLN, one console game 200 PLN, oh and half of those 2k PLN goes as taxes) a lot of people have modded consoles.

[Buffalobiian]

Well, this was interesting. I put Fallout 3 into my DVD drive, and it autobooted. I cancelled it, then ran the Setup.exe directly. (This step was recommended by Besthesda if you encountered Securom problems while installing). Then I renamed Fallout3Launcher.exe with .old on the end, then downloaded the craced version from gamecopyworld. Note that fallout3Launcher.exe has been run from the DVD, but not ONCE since being installed. After that I applied the patch to 1.0.0.15, which yielded this message:

"Fallout3Launcher.exe doesn't match the original file. The file has not been replaced."

Good, I thought. So I've been playing the game for a few days without the disc. Ever.

Today, I decided to run a little check, and guess what I found: (click to enlarge)

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/3582/35611929wy4.jpg (http://img217.imageshack.us/my.php?image=61531248cq4.jpg)

So despite the crack, Securom is in fact on my computer. I ran a full computer scan, and the result was this:

[13:33:01 PM] SafeDisc 4.81.000 detected -> C:\Program Files\Activision\Call of Duty 4 - Modern Warfare\iw3sp.exe
[13:34:29 PM] SecuROM 7.00.00.0022 detected -> C:\Program Files\Bethesda Softworks\Fallout 3\FalloutLauncher.exe
[13:37:13 PM] SafeDisc 2.80.010 detected -> C:\Program Files\EA Games\Need For Speed Hot Pursuit 2\dinocd_nfshp2_242\nfshp2.exe
[13:37:19 PM] SafeDisc 2.80.010 detected -> C:\Program Files\EA Games\Need For Speed Hot Pursuit 2\NFSHP2.exe
[13:38:48 PM] SafeDisc 2.70.030 detected -> C:\Program Files\Microsoft Games\Halo\halo.exe
[13:42:55 PM] SecuROM 7.00.00.0268 detected -> C:\Program Files\Sierra\FEAR\FEAR.exe
[13:42:57 PM] SecuROM 7.00.00.0026 detected -> C:\Program Files\Sierra\FEAR\FEARMP.exe

Basically, older and less intrusive protection were on my computer since yonks back, which probably explains the registry keys. Note there isn't the "DO NOT MODIFY THESE REGISTRY ENTRIES" messages in the regedit window, indicating that those older games didn't have install limits, or aggressive key detection.

Also, the version of Securom that comes with Fallout 3 is 7.36.0006, not 7.00.00.0022, so there's really no problem.

Just interesting that albeit a benign version, the no-DVD crack still contains SecuROM.

Note that Halo, which is also NO-CD cracked, still contains SafeDisc.

Anyone else have anything funny like this?

[Animeniax]

Good stuff, Buff. I'm going to run that utility on my PC and see what it finds. I know versions of SecuROM were installed with my installations of Bioshock, FEAR, and CoD4. Like you said, they all had the non-invasive versions, unlike newer games with limited online activations.

[Buffalobiian]

One problem I see with that program is that it only seems to scan the .exe files, so I have my doubts on whether it will pick up the remnants of the bitchy SecuROM after you uninstall games like Mass Effect or Dead Space.

I know there's an official uninstaller for SecuROM on the official website, and I think it gets rid of everything except the reg keys. They stay.

[Buffalobiian]

Battlefield: Bad Company 2 DRM explained

DICE's lead programmer, Mikael Kalms, has explained the DRM system that will be put in place for the final and beta versions of Battlefield: Bad Company 2 on PC, revealing that the game will make use of the controversial SecuROM DRM.

"The version which we use is a wrapper around the main game executable," Kalms wrote on the official Battlefield blog. He then promised that the entire DRM package will therefore be uninstalled when the game is and that it only runs when the game does.

For the actual mechanics of verification DICE has provided players with two options; one online, one offline.

The offline authentication is intended for those who don't have an internet connection or who aren't comfortable with the idea of an install limit and is a basic disc check system that requires the CD to be in the drive whenever the game is run.

The online option means you only need the disc to install the game, but limits you to only ten concurrent installs. Install credits are automatically refunded, so to speak, whenever the game is uninstalled - though you'll need to be online for both the installation and uninstallation. The online authentication only needs to run once though, then you can run the game for 10,000 days (27 years) before being forced to authenticate again.

A version of the SecuROM DRM will also be applied to the closed beta, which is only available to those who have pre-ordered the game. The beta is set to start on January 28th, while the full game ships on March 2nd.

source: http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2010/01/28/battlefield-bad-company-2-drm-explained/1

I'm pretty pleased with how DRM was handled this time round, providing it does exactly what Kalms says it does and nothing more.

10 install limit and what not is pretty lenient in comparison to how things were before. My main issues with SecuROM were its ability to imbed into your system and the potential to brick your optical drive. It seems to suggest that the former case won't be a problem anymore.

[darkshadow]

That is indeed a pretty good way of implementing it, I hope they do this on future titles.

[animus]

I was listening to GameTrailer's podcast titled Epic Battle Axe ep 68 and they had a section on Ubisoft's uber fail DRM for Assassin's Creed 2. It was quite interesting considering there was ONLY online authentication.

They had a server crash and chalked it up to hackers invading their servers and nobody could play the game and people were infuriated. Not to mention also, they said that even the slightest internet hiccup on the player's connection could end up in an instant return to the game's main menu and if you haven't saved your SOL.

[darkshadow]

They actually patched it so that if you got disconnected it would save at the exact same spot you were dc'd, so after the connection comes back on you can continue.

But still, this is the biggest bullshit protection ever.

[Votkrath]

I think SecuRom is pretty useless/unnecessary since they won't benefit from it with the money they put into this.

From a personal point of view I've only had problems with it, nothing good have come out of it.

So in other words they make the time it takes to pirate it and make it working about 10mins longer if even that but makes the experience worse for the people who have actually bought the game, so is it actually worth it? They seem to think so at least.

That's at least what I think based on personal experience.

[KrayZ33]

there is no working crack for Assassin Creed 2 yet (at least no one with working missions etc)


it works because the DVDs don''t have all the necessary data on it.
so even if you crack the DVD, u won't be able to play the game.

You need files from the servers to trigger scripts/events etc.

so unless someone knows exactly *what* files are missing and how *many* files are needed, there won't be a way to crack it.

[Buffalobiian]

I was listening to GameTrailer's podcast titled Epic Battle Axe ep 68 and they had a section on Ubisoft's uber fail DRM for Assassin's Creed 2. It was quite interesting considering there was ONLY online authentication.


But still, this is the biggest bullshit protection ever.


I think SecuRom is pretty useless/unnecessary since they won't benefit from it with the money they put into this.


there is no working crack for Assassin Creed 2 yet (at least no one with working missions etc)

Why UbiSoft's DRM was great
(http://games.on.net/article/9147/Devils_Advocate_Why_Ubisofts_DRM_worked)

Nicely written article that holds some truth.

[Kraco]

Why UbiSoft's DRM was great
(http://games.on.net/article/9147/Devils_Advocate_Why_Ubisofts_DRM_worked)

Nicely written article that holds some truth.


And that’s what matters. See, what you have to understand here is that the DRM isn’t for you – it’s for Ubisoft.

lolwut? I'm sure there are lots of people out there that buy games without even knowing most of them employ some sort of DRM but not one percent of those who do know what the DRM is can be thinking it's for the sake of the customers.

[darkshadow]

Even though I've been playing, and highly enjoying, assassin's creed 2 without any issues with the DRM, I still think it's a totally shitty way of implementing it.

Plus it's a short lived victory at best, since now that it's cracked, other titles will be cracked much much faster.

I hope they follow DICE's way of doing DRM in the future, that's the only one that is acceptable.

[Buffalobiian]

I hope they follow DICE's way of doing DRM in the future, that's the only one that is acceptable.

What way's that? I consider the Steam DRM model pretty acceptable, even if it means I HAVE to have a working internet.

[darkshadow]

Uhm you posted about it yourself buff ;P

http://forums.gotwoot.net/showthread.php?p=457104&postcount=69