Naruto Chapter 420

[Marik]

SleepyFans

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Enjoy and discuss!

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

lame chapter

[Atheist]

I thought the chapter was pretty good, can't wait for the next one. The quality sucks though, I hope a HQ release will be up soon!

[Marik]

I thought the chapter was pretty good, can't wait for the next one. The quality sucks though, I hope a HQ release will be up soon!

Better version is up now.

[iMUSTbeTHEdevil]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/420/01-02/

Here is a link to the better version...

Thought that it was kinda cool/crazy for Tsundae to want Naruto to be called back when she knows that Pain is after him. Also wondering what Kakashi's chances are against one of the Pains. I am thinking that this is just going to be a small fight until all 6 pains get back together and fight everyone in the village.

LoL @ the fusion Naruto invisioned...

[Uchiha Barles]

Kakashi stands next to no chance. I'm pretty sure pain's got a good handle on the powers of the sharingan, but kakashi has no clue what the powers of the rinnegan are. For that matter, neither do we.

I'm liking the interaction between Naruto and that frog. It's kind of cute. And, Naruto leaping at enormous heights into the sky and maneuvering in the air using his trusty bunshin techniques, a bona fide close combat system, and techniques he already has that are great given such a close combat system...I know the track record of this manga, but I can't help but get amped.

[Death BOO Z]

I liked this chapter. Naruto with frog on the shoulder looked pretty good, all serious and stuff.
frog fusion got me to LOL, maybe the anime will have a special episode featuring him as a main character.

too bad about Iruka, it could have been a good moment for him to make a final stand, using his powers of shonen heart to refuse telling Payne anything..
Kakashi doesn't stand a chance here, and besides, isn't he and Payne about the same age (I think Payne might be older)? then what's with this junior attitude?

about payne's body (and the other guys brain), did they both explode? I can understand setting up a bomb in one of his own bodies, but to plant demolition in some one elses brain? that's seriously awesome.

last, but not least, I think Hinata put up some weight,

[Raven]

How will Naruto in Frog Sage mode be good enough when Jiraiya in Frog Sage mode wasn't? It's his series, I suppose. He'll automatically win.

[RyougaZell]

Pain's part of the chapter was awesome.

Naruto's was lame as ever.Waste of pages.

[animus]

Did Pain stab Kakashi with one of those "receivers"?

[Rikudo]

Did Pain stab Kakashi with one of those "receivers"?


No, Pain "tickled" Kakashi with the chakra receiver rod.

Looking at the Kakashi fight, it makes you wonder how he's suppose to be the next in line to become the Hokage. Pain is making him look like garbage. Konoha will have a garbage Hokage. Don't get me wrong, I like Kakashi, he's a genius and would make for a very good tatician. Pain is just a freaking beast.

[darkshadow]

I wouldn't say Kakashi doesn't stand a single chance, but how is it possible for pein to dodge the raikiri at point blank? I say rinnegan has some ability to nulify a bloodline limit.
Also this would be a good fight for Kakashi to whip out some of those 1000+ jutsu's he has.

Later on, I guess naruto, kakashi and tsunade are going to tag team pein.

[Idealistic]

How will Naruto in Frog Sage mode be good enough when Jiraiya in Frog Sage mode wasn't? It's his series, I suppose. He'll automatically win.

Naruto has heart! I'm pretty sure this fight won't end without Naruto giving a speech to Pain and making Pain realize what he's doing and then die slowly.

[DB_Hunter]

Kakashi was caught by the element of surprise. I think this Kakashi Vs Pain fight could single handedly remdeem the Naruto series. Yeah we know that the Rinnengan is the most powerful eye of the three, but then how much does stuff like this matter when you are hitting the heights of great fighters? Madara had EMS and still lost to the First.

I think that Kakashi, coupled with his MS, could do some damage here. Why? Because Kakashi is supposed to be a genius without the Sharingan, whereas Pain just has an uber power up. Unless Pain can just nulify attacks, disrupt his opponenets internal chakra or just time travel, this could be a good fight.

Things against Kakashi right now are his low chakra/stamina level, and the fact that Jiraiya lost against Pain.

[Death BOO Z]

All those argument could mean something at some point of time, but we're at chapter 420.
Kakashi (whom, by chapter 80, has already admitted his relative weakness against Orochimaru), is not going to do shit to Payne.

Jiraya was probably much stronger than Kakashi (Kakashi shit his pants against Orochimaru, Jiraya bitch slapped Orochimaru), and he barely grazed Payne. Kakashi is seriously outclassed here.

I don't think there's a single ninja at the village who can currently fight against Payne, not Tsunade, not Yamato, not Hyuuga, not anbu. Payne has one weakness (well, two, if we consider what Jiraya said), and that's Qunan. always go after the girl.

the moment Payne finds out about Naruto, he'll stop the attack and go ambush Naruto.
then the world will implode from plot twisting, as there is no chance in hell that Naruto can beat Payne

anyways, not that Kakashi is weak or something, he's just out of his league here.

[Uchiha Barles]

I'm not going to make judgements on the current strength of characters based on their past strength because their progressions occur at different rates and are non linear, probably, for some. What I will say is this. The Uchiha and the Senju had massive numbers of battles against each other. By the time the first fought Madara, he probably had a good deal of information concerning the Sharingan.

Right now, we don't know what the rinnegan does. We don't know if it nullifies jutsu, we don't know if it freezes time, we don't know if it dulls the senses, we don't know if it paralyses the opponent, we've know clue. Kakashi has no clue. If he had some understanding of the powers of the Rinnegan, then maybe he would stand a chance, if the powers lent themselves to being defeated by something Kakashi can pull off. Kakashi would have to pull what that spider guy pulled against neiji back in the Chasing Sasukamy arc (that fight was pure bullshit btw). That's to say, figure out what the powers of the Rinnegan are. The thing is, the Byakugan didn't have any crazy tricks that messed with the opponents perception of reality. Right now, it seems that the Rinnegan might. How many times does Pain HAVE to use these abilities before he takes out Kakashi? I have a feeling, he could've killed him already.

Kakashi can't really win this with no info. He's gonna spend another month in the hospital, and this time, it's not going to be because he "went past his limit". It's going to be because someone came to save his behind from a fatal asskicking. Unless Kishimoto pulls a fast one on us and KILLS HIM! Can you imagine? Saving Naruto's academy teacher just to take out Kakashi...I'd lol forever.

[LaZie]

Or maybe Kakashi and Gai will team up and fight one of Pain's bodies.

[iMUSTbeTHEdevil]

How will Naruto in Frog Sage mode be good enough when Jiraiya in Frog Sage mode wasn't? It's his series, I suppose. He'll automatically win.

Naruto in all fairness was given more information and more time to prepare. In no way is he as good as Jiraiya, but he will have the clue to go on, not to mention the sage boss already has fought Pein once.

PS. I can see Tsundae being very calm at this point, but having a breakdown when she confronts Pein. And by breakdown, I mean beating his ass!

[toonice714]

decent chapter. hopefully well get to see the newly promoted genin do some damage w/out naruto. Looks like those piercings in all the pein bodies are like batteries. I guess rinnengan is like an advanced marrionette technique. Pein probably uses the rinnengan to project chakara through the bodies by way of those odd bars. The new rasenshuriken will oblitherate it and the bodies will go limp. I dont see it playing out any other way.

[Assertn]

Well lets see.....

Naruto surpassed the 4th's rasengan.
Naruto surpassed Jiraiya's sage mode.
Naruto has kyubi.

I'd say Naruto stands a better chance against Pein.

[DB_Hunter]

I thought Naruto had the potential to surpass Jiraiya's sage mode, not that he had already done it.

[Abdula]

Naruto sucks balls. If he somehow manages to beat Pain now, then I'm done with this manga.

[Death BOO Z]

Naruto sucks balls. If he somehow manages to beat Pain now, then I'm done with this manga.

oh, for god's sake...
we get that shit twice each chapter discussion...
"If kishi does this, then I quit!"
"If naruto actually manages that, then I'll stop reading!"

[6Zabuza9]

pein is gonna die. mostly likely by naruto.

[darkmetal505]

oh, for god's sake...
we get that shit twice each chapter discussion...
"If kishi does this, then I quit!"
"If naruto actually manages that, then I'll stop reading!"

If Abdula didn't bitch about something in each Naruto chapter, then he wouldn't be Abdula. Assuming that they do break the code in time, I'm sure Naruto will be able to defeat Pain.

[Death BOO Z]

If Abdula didn't bitch about something in each Naruto chapter, then he wouldn't be Abdula. Assuming that they do break the code in time, I'm sure Naruto will be able to defeat Pain.


pein is gonna die. mostly likely by naruto.

if that happens, I'm quitting the manga :p ;)

I think it's still to early for this, Naruto is a 'bubble' of power, he needs to burst to show his real proportions, he's been inflating since Naruto2 started, he needs to get a crushing defeat from someone mighty strong, and then get a good win against someone decent.
Payne is not an enemy Naruto should be able to beat right now.

it's possible that the yoda frog will sacrifice himself to stop Payne (send him back to dimension X, whatever), and then Naruto will need to figure out how to toad-fu on his own, without chackra receivers.

other option, that is completely impossible (and three times as awesome) is that killerbee comes to fight payne himself, saying that he wants to make sure that he is stronger than any akatsuki member, and he combines forces with... Kisame!
(yes, I'm pushing for Kisame crossing the lines, read earlier chapters discussions for more on that subject)
Kisame, who is pissed by Uchiha idiots making his best friend kill himself, joins the fight, and they manage to drive Payne away, killing two more of his bodies, which will give Konoha the final clue about killing Payne.

that's the best scenrio option, which has 0% of happening, something that might happen, is that Naruto runs into Qunan, beats her, and then Payne retreats in order to take care of her injuries.

DBZ, a man can dream, even if he only wakes up to the cruel reality of his nightmares.

[rockmanj]

Maybe the Kisame thing is kind of a stretch, but not really That far off (not sure about the Killerbee thing). I could see him turning...low probability, though. And of course i lol'd at Naruto's envisioning the fusion. It felt like a short chapter; and I'm hungry for more unbridled carnage, like the soul sucking and stuff. I say someone bites the bullet next chapter.

And should that lab guy be working in the lab if he's that clueless?

[Abdula]

oh, for god's sake...
we get that shit twice each chapter discussion...
"If kishi does this, then I quit!"
"If naruto actually manages that, then I'll stop reading!"
But I'm completely serious. Its not about Naruto, Pain is the only reason I keep reading this manga. Orochimaru is gone, Itachi is gone, and Jiraiya is gone so Pain is pretty much the only character left in this series that I actually give a crap about. So if he dies, my interest in Naruto dies with him.

[Uchiha Barles]

Normally when someone learns anything, including combat, they learn the basics first. The basics aren't things that go away, they're an ever present foundation, and the better you are at them, the better you are, period. Good hand to hand combat is usually the foundation for someone like Naruto. He didn't get that, like, ever. Instead he got those things that are supposed to build on the basics. A rasengan and a wind rasengan, both of which need good hand to hand combat skills to work reliably, instead of some incredibly contrived tactic. He got kage bunshin, which alone is deadly as hell if your hand to hand combat is up to par. Asides from the demon and things linked to the active summoning of it's power, that's about all Naruto got.

Naruto didn't lack the power to take out akatsuki guys, nor did he lack the tactical ability. He lacked skill, because he lacked the foundation I was talking about. This frog-fu is now the missing backdrop against which all of Naruto's skills have to be measured. Think of it as someone who gets a hell of a lot of knowledge about stuff, but is missing one critical component to make any of it useful. Once he gets it though, he previous knowledge is still there. With a few adjustments, he's the brainy powerhouse all the knowledge he acquired implies he is. Naruto's cunning is what it's always been, his power is what it's always been, but now he can actually run up to someone, through a punch, and counter the counter (maybe). We'll no longer need to sit through 2 episodes of Naruto charging in and getting repelled 2 miles back, repeatedly. Also, the sage mode adds to all this, basically what the demon chakra did for him, minus the killing him slowly thing. Do I see him taking out Pein? After Kakashi figures out what the Rinnegan does, and the code breakers figure out what "the real one isn't there" means, and all this is told to Naruto...then yeah...maybe.

[Sidnne]

I thought this was one of the better chapters in quite some time. It had a pretty intense pace to it and I can't remember the last time a chapter left me looking forward to the next.

I'm liking Naruto's progress. It feels like there may be hope for what we've been looking forward to since Naruto vs Gaara. And I really liked the last page, especially the last frame of Tsunade saying "Call Naruto back!"

[SilentSnake]

Naruto sucks balls. If he somehow manages to beat Pain now, then I'm done with this manga.

Pain/Pein/Payne (which name is correct? :P ) will most likely be killed by Naruto because he was the one who killed Jiraiya, so it's going to be a good opportunity for Naruto to finally grow up, save Kakashi's ass and revenge his beloved perverted hermit's death.

On the other hand, we were waiting for Naruto to grow up for so long it feels like yet another cocktease just to make him look like a fool in the end anyway.

Time will tell... especially with Tsunade being sentenced to death by so many.

Either way, we should see some really nice action in future chapters and that's what matters:D

[DB_Hunter]

To be honest I don't see Naruto beating Pein here. Even in the naruto world that would be too much of a stretch. I think Naruto will end up fighting Pein, but due to some plot device the fight will be interuppted. At the most Naruto will get beat, but Pein will have to back off for one reason or another. I do think though this fight will reveal a major plot, either with Naruto directly or with something being revelaed about the rinenngan.

[Uberbaka]

I think you guys are missing the point of the series when it comes to thinking Naruto will beat Pein 1 on.. erm.. "1".

I'm sticking with this prediction:

In the fight where Pein is defeated (whenever the hell that is) Naruto will start the fight alone and frogmaster on his shoulder will die so he can't activate his nature mode while fighting.. So his friends come and help him out, the people that he's cheered up along the way demonstrating true teamwork and how konoha is one big family bla bla bla bullshit. Possibly even a turned Sasuke (I hope not). Naruto will still land the final blow (or together with Sasuke).

The multiple body system of Pein is just screaming "You have to fight as a team to beat me."

[darkmetal505]

Look, Jiraya died figuring out Pain's secret, which will most likely translate to a weakness. It was said that Jiraya could've escaped if he wanted to. If it's a big enough thing that Jiraya would sacrifice himself for, is it not entirely plausible that Naruto could defeat Pain? Even Shizune figured out something.

[DB_Hunter]

Well actually the point of the series, or rather the point of Naruto's character, is for him to become Hokage and earn the recognition of those who despised him as a child. That doesn't mean he has to beat Pein alone.

You know there is a possibility that the power Itachi 'fed' Naruto might just spring forth in one of these fights. I know the accepted wisdom is that it will come out against Sasuke or possibily Madara, but Itachi could have been preparing Naruto's defenses against Pein. Itachi must have known about the rinenngan, as Pein always had it on, even when we only used to see akatsuki as holograms. Sasuke would have the EMS, and Naruto would have this mysterious power to fight with against Pein and Madara.

Wouldn't it be weird if he transferred something of the Sharingan to Naruto?

[Death BOO Z]

we'd need a new language to describe how much we hate Kishi, if that happens..
though, it might be happening, as Sasuke was said to be getting a tailed beast (not anymore, I hope), so giving naruto a sharingan would just be stepping down the stupid road.

I think we're safe from it for now, but I'll be the first to run if it looks like it's going to happen.

[Naruto_RNG]

Look, Jiraya died figuring out Pain's secret, which will most likely translate to a weakness. It was said that Jiraya could've escaped if he wanted to. If it's a big enough thing that Jiraya would sacrifice himself for, is it not entirely plausible that Naruto could defeat Pain? Even Shizune figured out something.

Sometimes ppl forget that this manga is called naruto, and he is the main character of the story. Him pulling out a win is not really far fetched. Hell I rather him beating someone way above him then a secondary character. I'm pissed yet again naruto has limitation on his damn new jutsu. He needs pa frog and he can only do it for 5 min. God kishi give the poor guy a break.

[poopdeville]

I wouldn't say Kakashi doesn't stand a single chance, but how is it possible for pein to dodge the raikiri at point blank? I say rinnegan has some ability to nulify a bloodline limit.
.

Pein wants to make Kakashi one of his bodies. He stuck the receiver in his shoulder and used his genjutsu to disrupt Kakashi. Pein probably wants a Sharingan user so he can match up against Madara.

[joker-kun]

I am not liking how Sasuke grew alot stronger during the time skip and Naruto barely did, and now Naruto is apparently leveling up in a matter of days (would have been better if he grew just a little more during the time skip).

Anyway that being said it's about time Naruto will be a force in battle, and by force I don't mean where he rants about his "nindo" and surprises everyone with some technique (although we know he does have a surprise technique...) and then collapses or gets saved, I mean it's about time he finally has a combat style that can pwn in every battle (rather than random kage bunshins or rasangen's that the enemy dodges the first 5 times).

[DB_Hunter]

Agreed. For too long Naruto in battle has been about wasting 90% of the time with Kage Bunshins who don't actually know how to fight, and then 10% with a one shot hit that only works because the enemy thinks Naruto's only attack is a Kage Bunshin and is thus caught out by the element of surprise.

[chet_chetty]

And there's still the jutsu Naruto wants to use without anyone "seeing him" so it can only improve his chances of beating Pein. Unless it's a jutsu that's already been alluded to ie what Itachi gave him.

[DB_Hunter]

Mysterious jutsu's Naruto has yet to use:

1. Itachi's Crow
2. Secret Jutsu Naruto was practising in sage mode.
3. The scroll jutsu Naruto has to unlock (the one Jiraiya gave to the frog before engaging Pein and Konan)
4. THAT jutsu (unless this happens to be the same as 2) I think was alluded to by Jiraiya somewhere in the past.

Is there anything I have missed off?

[Archangel]

Naruto surpassed the 4th's rasengan.
Naruto surpassed Jiraiya's sage mode.

Every time i think about those 2 things i die a little inside...


Naruto sucks balls. If he somehow manages to beat Pain now, then I'm done with this manga.

... no you won't. And yes he will.


Mysterious jutsu's Naruto has yet to use:

1. Itachi's Crow
2. Secret Jutsu Naruto was practising in sage mode.
3. The scroll jutsu Naruto has to unlock (the one Jiraiya gave to the frog before engaging Pein and Konan)
4. THAT jutsu (unless this happens to be the same as 2) I think was alluded to by Jiraiya somewhere in the past.

Is there anything I have missed off?

I think number 3 and number 4 are the same jutsu.

[Psyke]

I've having problems convincing myself that Naruto has surpassed both the 4th and Kakashi too. Everytime Kakashi says that, I think that he's short changed himself. Really, we need to see gradual growth and not just a huge level up in the eyes of the characters at the end of each arc.

[Tyreal]

Pein wants to make Kakashi one of his bodies. He stuck the receiver in his shoulder and used his genjutsu to disrupt Kakashi. Pein probably wants a Sharingan user so he can match up against Madara.

Now that's something I didn't consider. What if Pein beats Kakashi and makes him one of his bodies during this fight. Then later on when Naruto is finally going to go up against Pein he has to fight Kakashi?

[Archangel]

I've having problems convincing myself that Naruto has surpassed both the 4th and Kakashi too. Everytime Kakashi says that, I think that he's short changed himself. Really, we need to see gradual growth and not just a huge level up in the eyes of the characters at the end of each arc.

Well huge powerups in little time aren't all that bad, look at DBZ those happened all the time and i still loved the anime. The thing is that naruto is no goku, he went through half the series not having any talent at all and now of a sudden he just surpassesthe 4th, kakashi, jiraya, etc. That shit is just ludicrous .

[DB_Hunter]

Difference between Goku and Naruto is that when Goku trained hard, he knew what he was doing and he would produce results e.g. during the Cell Games saga. Naruto on the other hand does some random shit for three years and has just an enhanced special move to show for this.

I still maintain that Naruto has NOT surpassed either Kakashi or Jiraiya as a ninja. No way. What Kakashi meant was that Naruto has one move that Kakashi could not do. That doesn't mean Kakashi would lose to Naruto in a fight. Secondly, Naruto has not surpassed Jiraiya, as the old frog said Naruto seemed to have the potential to surpass Jiraiya's ability to control sage mode.

[Uchiha Barles]

I'm not understanding where you guys are getting that Naruto didn't have any talent at all for half the series. Naruto was no worse a ninja than most of his peers in the chuunin exam. He's the one who beat those three ninja that were using the clones made out of some black crap before the preliminaries. Essentially by himself, WITH that seal Orochimaru placed on him. All he had at the time was Kage Bunshins, his stamina, and his cleverness. That plan was his.

Then Jiraiya showed him how to use the demon chakra, which is something you can't blame Naruto for learning anymore than you can blame Gaara for knowing.He also taught him the frog summoning. This raised his fighting level to something above most of his peers and put him near or at the level of people like Neiji and Rock. Why do I say that? Because before he had a chance to train again, Naruto went on to earn a victory against Gaara.

It's really just two specific places that Naruto made no sense whatsoever. In the Sannin fight, where he didn't die and he should have, and in the Kimimaro fight, where it made no sense whatsoever that he was so powerless against kimimaro. Those are the biggest contributors to Naruto sucking as a character. Most of everything else that wasn't filler was fine, except maybe for entire episodes of him charging in and getting pushed back. But that's a writing fault, not a character fault.

[Abdula]

Naruto was no worse a ninja than most of his peers in the chuunin exam.
Yeah he was no worse but he wasn't much better either. This is a shonen series, and in a shonen series you expect the main character to be far superior to everyone else, even if there is no apparent reason for his superiority. Ichigo, Gon, Goku, all good examples of this. Naruto on the other hand has every reason in the world why he should be better than every single person around him, but he isn't.

Thats my 2 cents.

[Uchiha Barles]

Actually, Gon is a lot like a Naruto character, done right. He wasn't better than his "peers". His attributes were.Killua could beat him for the longest, Hisoka can probably still beat him, and not to take away anything from Gon, but he really made it as far as he did in large part because of the alliances he formed. Really, the chuunin exam in Naruto was a straight, complete, and unadulterated rip off of the hunter exam in HxH. Bleach is a shit series. As bad as Naruto is, I cannot stand bleach. I stopped watching in the save Rukia arc the second he beat that eyepatch guy. THAT made no sense. Goku is the only character you mentioned that was from a good anime that met the criteria for a shounen main character you listed. And even then, the reasons were apparent. He's from an alien race of warriors.

[Abdula]

Um, is that your comeback? Gon definitely fits the description and even if you think Bleach is shit, that doesn't exclude Ichigo from the list and good and DBZ aren't usually two things that go together in my book. Anyway I think you completely missed my point.

[Death BOO Z]

It's really just two specific places that Naruto made no sense whatsoever. In the Sannin fight, where he didn't die and he should have, and in the Kimimaro fight, where it made no sense whatsoever that he was so powerless against kimimaro. Those are the biggest contributors to Naruto sucking as a character. Most of everything else that wasn't filler was fine, except maybe for entire episodes of him charging in and getting pushed back. But that's a writing fault, not a character fault.

I think the sannin fight was great, Naruto went up against an obviously stronger opponent, and managed to logically shonen heart his victory.
Kabuto was even in less than perfect form, so it makes good sense. it was a battle that (should've ) established naruto as a 'grown-up'. it worked quite well, when Naruto shamed Sasuke on the rooftop battle.
then they screwed it over by making Naruo lose so badly to Kimimaru, and saved by "got out of surgery, ran all the way here' Rock lee.
and then a few unimpressive parts of Naruto2 (I'm too tired to name them all, again), and we're back at stage one, where we can't believe that Naruto can't win a fight without superchackra and itachi's oral crows.
this isn't enough for him to fight payne, and not close to what he needs to fight Sasuke.

just an assumption, correct me if you think I'm wrong.. If we made two threads, of Sasuke vs Kakashi and Naruto vs Kakashi. I think that Sasuke would get 90-10 ration, and Naruto will barely get 40-60 ratio.

[Uchiha Barles]

@ Abdula: Well, hopefully the post didn't come across as being agressive enough to be considered a "comeback". It's was meant as a rebuttal, a response. But if it can't be considered that, then yeah, maybe I missed your point. Even so, when it comes to Gon, he's essentially no different than Naruto in design. That's one thing I cannot concede to the opposite.

@DBZ. I think you're right about the proportions you mentioned, but I think that's only because people are going to judge as a matter of impression instead of taking inventory of the skills and abilities that the two characters have displayed. Furthermore, even if they do, they often downplay some of those things in Naruto's inventory, also as a matter of impression. To be fair, impression is important, but I don't have this same impression that most other people seem to have of Naruto. After choosing to forget both the Kimimaro fight, and the fact that he should've died at Kabuto's hands. Oh, and I have to disagree that that fight should've established Naruto as a grown up. When you realize just how outclassed you are by the opponents in a fight, the "grown up" thing to do is to watch and learn. And MAYBE, seek an opportunity to throw yourself in there, if a VERY obvious opportunity shows up. If you choose to just go in there, then you should be able to accept death as the result.

You mentioned that a lot of Naruto's showings in the "Naruto 2" were unimpressive. I'm thinking you're referring to his participation in the fights against Deidara, then Orochimaru, then Kakuzu. I was rather impressed actually at Kishimoto for those fights against Deidara and Kakuzu.

Against Deidara, he didn't try to have Naruto do more than he could. And that was NOTHING while Deidara was flying around. He didn't pull anything out of his ass to try and make Naruto shine. When Deidara finally landed though, Naruto was sneaky enough to have Deidara focus on his crying clone and his angry clone, while his "business" clone found him and blasted him in the mouth. More could've been done I suppose, but Deidara's no whimp.

Against Kakuzu, I was impressed because this was one of those moments where Naruto did things exactly along the lines of his development. He used his kagebunshins to determine how many it would take to get past Kakuzu's defenses. That's a line of strategic thinking he probably learned during Jiraiya's training for the 2.5 years. He certainly didn't think that way before the training, and he had no opportunity to learn it after the training. He used his wind rasengan to kill Kakuzu, which is a power up he learned post time skip. He also used henge to mask 2 of his clones and add a measure of deception to the second charge. Kakuzu having no eye techniques couldn't have easily seen through this. This is a level of cleverness that Naruto's always displayed since the Zabuza fight, and most fights after that.

The Orochimaru fight impressed me solely because well animated 9 tails shenanigans are always entertaining to me.

[Death BOO Z]

heck, we had an HxH thing going on? I'm in.

Gon was weaker than Killua, yes. but killua was the 4th strongest guy in the exam (hisoka, Kuromi, Hanzou). and still Gon, was around Kuripaca's level, and even without the bail out of the final exam, he'd probably still get hunter qualified.
the difference between him and naruto is that when gon gets a level-up, it's explained, it has in-story reason, other than "he can surpass the previous guy", we actually get to see him training from the core of his new found strength. basic nen, advanced nen, super nen. it's believable.
not to mention that when he fights, he usually wins because of brains, not because of power.
Gon, in most aspects, is comparable to yusuke (YYH), they both are naive and run by emotion, but with brain power to support it, and not one bit innocent or surprised.

the problem is that Naruto never shows his strength, he mostly gets the part of the weakling that's beaten to show how strong the enemy is.


more crap:
I don't see any problem with the Kabuto fight, Naruto went in, did his thing, took a stab at his hand, followed his ninja way, and managed a double k.o (yes, he would have died if not for tsunade, but I can't see any rookie doing more damage to Kabuto at that state of time). by established as a grown up, I mean that he's out of the children league, he belongs to the real world fights. he may not be the strongest one, but he doesn't need someone to constantly watch over him. even orochimaru said that Naruto was no longer an 'interesting kid' and viewed him as something with real abilities.

Naruto2:
Deidara: sure, Naruto ravaged him, but it was after Deidara had his freakin' arm blasted into the future (or the past, or something), he was kyuubi fueled (two tails, I think?) and displayed nothing new. Naruto didn't even cause real damage (Kakashi took an arm, Sasuke killed him, Naruto? zist).
Orochimaru: no complaints here, best fight in naruto2. but it wasn't naruto, it was the demon mode. not to mention he got completely owned (is there a stronger description? I need something stronger) by sasuke minutes after-wards.
Kazuko: Naruto took out two hearts, the same number as kakashi. during that time, Naruto managed to make a complete fool out of himself. and in the end, that's what matters.

more honorable mention of naruto sucking: Naruto taking an oral cock from Itachi clone.
a few chapters later we see Sasuke taking Itachi toe-to-toe. that's like a river of difference.
more of the same: Sasuke has his own team now, his own damn goal, and has made himself a decision or two. Naruto is still chapparoned and guided hand by hand by the
same idiots from 400 chapters ago.

last, but not least: Naruto has the most experience in the village with shadow clones, he has made thousends of them, why couldn't he have figured the training trick on his own?

the lasting impression is the only thing that matters. if the author wants us to believe something in the story, he has to make it believable, not just write whatever he wants, and then say that something is something because he said so.

[Archangel]

the lasting impression is the only thing that matters. if the author wants us to believe something in the story, he has to make it believable, not just write whatever he wants, and then say that something is something because he said so.

Lol you're talking about the anti-kishi who lives in a parallel universe right?

[Death BOO Z]

nope, I'm talking about the fictional characterization of Kishimonto. a being that exists only at our minds.
he's magical, and his writing is magical as well. and he isn't set off track by real-life events and ideas that come across the real kishimonto mind.
you won't understand, but he's magical, and you have to believe he exists, otherwise another sasuke chapter is published.

we have completely gone off-topic, and each post is getting stupider than the previous one, lets move to the subject of Payne's bodies, does anyone have an idea? I'm still shitting bricks from people saying Kazuko was the christian prophet gospel, or something.

[joker-kun]

It is all Kishi's fault for making Naruto so weak to begin with; the same way he made Itachi so godlike only to be beaten by his emo brother without ever showing his real power (yes we seen glimpses of it but by the time he was ready to go all out he was almost blind, had some sickness, and was hoping for his brother to kill him).

Naruto should have never been as weak as he was just for the the fact that his father was the -the- 4th Hokage (hell even the little bit we've learned about his mom makes it seem like she was even fairly skilled), and that he had the demon fox inside him.

The problem here is Kishi's giant hard on for the Sharingan. Sasuke has a sharingan and this is basically why he's as strong as he is. Naruto has a father who was (I think) the youngest and strongest Hokage, was trained by two legends; Kakashi and Jiraiya, and has the strongest Bijuu inside him. He matches Sasuke in every way (strong father/trained by Kakashi/Sannin, some sort of special power), and Kishi meant for this, except without any real explanation Sasuke is always more skilled, and not by a little but by leaps and bounds. Naruto should be at his current power level but it should have happened gradually since (and during) the time skip.

[Uchiha Barles]

@DeathBoo

I had a huge response (which seems to be the norm as of late) but then I accidentally pressed the backspace button while the cursor wasn't active, and lost message...pissed me off. But I'm back, hopefully with a streamlined version.

Killua arguably may have been the fourth strongest, but I'm pretty sure that there were people there that were both stronger than Gon yet weaker than Killua. For one, that nen user that used the four knives to fight against Hisoka, and died shortly thereafter. Then there were the martial artist brothers, one of which Killua took out. I'm pretty sure Kurapica was stronger than Gon, specially considering that his fighting ability was no less than Gon's when he wasn't pissed off, vastly superior when he was, and that he had all that random knowledge (If we're talking pure fighting ability, there are likely others who didn't make it to the finals that were also stronger than Gon). So this places Gon at around the same relative level that Naruto was at in the Chuunin exams.

Now, Gon is a naturally clever character, with high levels of endurance, and is a reinforcement nen user. Naruto is a naturally clever character, with high levels of endurance, high chakra capacity with high burst chakra output capacity...if you get my meaning. These are their "talents" so to speak. Much of what they can do are direct consequences of these things. I'll give you that HxH explains things much better, and is plain better in every aspect, but that doesn't change the parallel between the characters.

Now, I'll give you that the Itachi shadow cock (lol!) and much of the other things you mentioned did make Naruto look like an idiot, but for the most part, they had nothing to do with his combat ability. There's one thing you mentioned that did though. Naruto screwing up in the Kakuzu fight. That fizzing of his rasengan is reminiscent of his failure to summon Gamabunta the first time he tried in the Gaara fight. This may be Kishi's way of telling us that Naruto's the kind of character that bring's to combat a jutsu that's still in the beta stages of development, and that things could very well go wrong for him when he does. Everything else though, just doesn't matter as far as how he'll perform in a fight. That's how I get my impression of characters strengths. Also, yeah, Naruto only took out two hearts, but he did it in one blow, and that blow could've very well taken out all five hearts, based on its apparent destructive power.

My problem with the Sannin fight, is that I don't really believe Tsunade should've been able to save him. I mean, even the demon fox couldn't do anything. That part just reeks of bs. Naruto realized he was just plain outclassed, by several levels. The "grown up" thing to do at that point would've been to watch and learn. And MAYBE, if an obvious opportunity presented itself to do something, THEN make a move. You don't just pick up your gloves, take two lessons of boxing, and then talk shit to mike tyson before lunging at him. You wait till his back is turned, and you crack him over the skull with a lead pipe. Same situation with Naruto and Kabuto. The fight where he showed maturity to me, was the Gaara fight. He fought someone who seemingly outclassed him, even in his own eyes, used everything he had, discovered he could fight on even ground with the opponent, and then won. Him getting the rasengan on Kabuto was nice, but as far as I'm concerned, he died afterwards, and I have to forget that every time I try to watch an episode of the series. On those times I fail at that, I can't keep watching, I have to try again later.

...this post is actually worst than the first one, and somehow just as long...:-(

[Death BOO Z]

Naruto vs. Kabuto:
Naruto joined the fight (after mindlessly charging at Kabuto once) to save Tsunade from death, which is the smart thing to do (to stop it from becoming sick Orochimaru vs poisoned Jiraya), he took a punch straight to the head, and stood ground.
which pretty much implies to naruto that his enemy doesn't have much power, and can't over-taijutsu him. that's pretty good odds for naruto, really.
after that, he is saved by combined effort of Tsunade's super healing, and Kyuubi recovery (or, as later speculations might indicate, by the magical necklese of the 1st hokage), I really think that it's enough to cure him.

as for naruto sucking in the fight against Itachi and taking his giant oral shadow cock, the problem is less that he lost to Itachi, it was more the overwhelming magnitude of how incompetent he is against someone who has the slightest non-melee combat abilities. I'm not expecting him to win against Itachi, but god, show us something. Tactic thinking, dodging skills, something redeeming, don't stand around and take his sexual abuse, god dammit!

I'm not so problemmed with naruto using half baked jutsu in the middle of battle, I'm more concerned that he doesn't use any jutsu that he actually knows before going into shonen heart mode.
We haven't seen hims summoning a toad since forever (can he summon normal battle toads? or is he still stuck between super toad and kid toad?), he hardly combines henge and Kage bunshin (oh, right, his and Sai's spar against Yamato, wow), not to talk about normal bunshin combined with shadow ones, or any jutsu that isn't of epic levels (heck, he can throw a rasenshuriken around, but can't use 'razor leaf' like balbasaur?).

Naruto never won a fight without shonen hearting it (well, at least since fighting Kiba), even Ichigo has better track record than that.

Gon can actually see beyond the hole in the bucket, Naruto keeps screaming about that hole. So when Naruto is mindlessly following Jiraya around and sprouting embarrassing dialog, Gon can actually say something that has meaning.
but that's just hitting more on the Kishi-Pinyata, so we should stop.

does anyone have something to say about Payne's six pack?

[DB_Hunter]

Well now that Shizune has figured that the black rods are chakra demodulators, you can bet your ass on it that they are going to bust out with some sort of chakra 'scrambler' and block the chakra waves from travelling in the air.

I think the people best suited to fight with the 6 pack of Pein will be the Hyuuga, as a lot seems to revolve around the fact they are interlinked and sharing chakra with each other. The Hyuuga should be able to see this chakra activity and block it off.

[Uchiha Barles]

I've had some theories that seemed too awesome to be true in the past, but I didn't bother saying them for that very reason, but they all turned out exactly as I thought they would. So, I'll go ahead and venture this theory here. If that thing that Pain stabbed kakashi with is a chakra modulator, then you might imagine that it'll change some of the properties of the chakra. I suspect it can do things like change the opponent's elemental affinity. That'd just wreak havoc on their ability to fight. Might also change the type of jutsu user the opponent is. As in, if the opponent were originally more suited to genjutsu type fighting, they may now be more taijutsu oriented after the effects of Pain's chakra modulation.

You guys remember the Itachi/Kisame clones? That was Pain's jutsu that made them possible. It might be that Pain used the chakra modulator on Itachi and Kisame in a discovery capacity, to learn the properties of their chakra. He could've then used the modulator on the henchmen to turn their chakra type into the same as Itachi and Kisame's. Since they seemed to really be Itachi and Kisame, chakra modulation might actually be able to change the person entirely...maybe. That's my theory for the day.

[Death BOO Z]

that seems reasonable enough, Payne may be the key for that clone fighters.
Which raises some question as to Zetsu eating all the clones...
maybe zetsu's 2nd voice is Payne's true body?

I'd like that to happen.

[DB_Hunter]

It's more likely that the chakra modulators in the henchmen were merely receieving the chakra being transmitted by Itachi and Kisame via Pein.

[Uchiha Barles]

Actually that's true. Was that demodulation device found in the body they autopsied? Anyway, yeah, Itachi and Kisame weren't actually participating in the summoning at the time the clone fights were occuring, so it really was them talking and fighting via the chakra modulator. If we're right, I wonder if Kishi had this explanation ready at the time he wrote that portion of the manga, because this seems actually well planned, and interesting.

[Archangel]

, I wonder if Kishi had this explanation ready at the time he wrote that portion of the manga, because this seems actually well planned, and interesting.

Wouldn't that mean that kishi planned something ahead instead of coming up with new shit from the top of his head like he does with every new chapter?

Edit for who bad repped me: What's with all the hate homie? I just enjoy bad mouthing the hell out of kishi :D

Seriously if anyone should get bad rep for kishi-trolling it should be abdula not me.

[DB_Hunter]

You know on a seperate note I was reading throught the chapters were the konoha crew killed Kakuzu, and it was explicitly stated there that Naruto was only halfway to completing his Wind rasengan... I think in this case we can assume that the true form of this jutsu is to throw it, and that is what Naruto was practicing just now.

[Archangel]

You know on a seperate note I was reading throught the chapters were the konoha crew killed Kakuzu, and it was explicitly stated there that Naruto was only halfway to completing his Wind rasengan... I think in this case we can assume that the true form of this jutsu is to throw it, and that is what Naruto was practicing just now.

No offense DB but i think most of us got that by now, we're just hoping we'll actually get to see a jutsu that isn't rasengan / shadow clones based coming from naruto.

But i'll never underestimate naruto's retardness, the jutsu may really be unthrowable.

[DB_Hunter]

Yeah of course... I guess in my mind the jury was still out, due to the fact that they couldn't possibly do a cheap Hadoken rip off.

But I guess they are going to.

[Uchiha Barles]

Hrmm...if Pain uses chakra modulation to control all the "realms", then the mechanism for defeating him might be revealed. Like, if only one person is doing the modulation and all the realms are equipped with demodulators, then that may be why finding the real Pain and defeating him would stop the others from acting. Also, the key to defeat any of the individual realms might be to just remove their demodulators. I've a feeling Pain had to defeat those bodies to get control of them, and without control from Pain, they're either just corpses or near corpses.

There's also some creepy emotional crap that would come with all this. Pain's story is going to involve how he had a plan to uniite the or destroy the world, or save everyone or whatever, just like his friend wanted, but his friend and he didn't see eye to eye. Something about widespread destruction and war propagation probably didn't appeal to his friend, so they had a fight, and the friend was promptly defeated. To make himself feel better, Pain uses his friend's body as his primary avatar. It's so sad, I could shed a tear, if I wasn't creeped the fuck out.

[Naruto_RNG]

I wonder what good does it do even if FRS was thrown. Sasuke and everyone else naruto has to fight with, all have very high speed. I mean all the opponent has to do is side step.

[Uchiha Barles]

Well, it could be really fast. Like, really really fast. Also, if it's thrown, Naruto isn't near it with it blasts the enemy. So he avoids the damage that it causes when it goes "pop" on the enemy. Plus, if he can throw it, I suspect he can also control it, like make it follow the enemy. Like Yamcha's technique.

I really don't think that that jutsu he doesn't want anyone to see is the rasengan though. I just don't see a reason for him to hide that training from a bunch of frogs.

[Abdula]

Seriously if anyone should get bad rep for kishi-trolling it should be abdula not me.
For the record I don't enjoy bad mouthing Kishi, and I don't always complain in fact I was probably the only one who enjoyed the manga's Sasuke heavy turn, even Psyke didn't like it, but I was all for it up until the horrible Itachi-Sasuke-Madara sharingan orgy. Anyway stop using my damn name:mad: :p

Hrmm...if Pain uses chakra modulation to control all the "realms", then the mechanism for defeating him might be revealed. Like, if only one person is doing the modulation and all the realms are equipped with demodulators, then that may be why finding the real Pain and defeating him would stop the others from acting. Also, the key to defeat any of the individual realms might be to just remove their demodulators. I've a feeling Pain had to defeat those bodies to get control of them, and without control from Pain, they're either just corpses or near corpses.
So you think Jiraiya figured all of this out when Pain did that to him, seems like everyone forgot that Pain did the exact same thing to Jiraiya that he is doing to Kakashi and it was right after that, that Jiraiya figured out his secret. So when Jiraiya was stabbed he figured it out and left the coded message along with the body hoping that the guys in Konoha would get it. I would actually buy that, and it would also explain why Pain was so worried about his secret getting out. Still I don't think thats the whole story, the guy wouldn't go around claiming to be a god if his weakness was something so simple. I really like the idea though.

Besides his weakness has something to do with his true identity. Jiraiya was going on and on about his true identity.

[Archangel]

I wonder what good does it do even if FRS was thrown. Sasuke and everyone else naruto has to fight with, all have very high speed. I mean all the opponent has to do is side step.

Did you see the freaking explosion range that thing has? If he did manage to throw it it would be one of the most powerful jutsus we've ever seen.


Plus, if he can throw it, I suspect he can also control it, like make it follow the enemy. Like Yamcha's technique.

Wouldn't that require high chakra control? And doesn't naruto suck at that?

[SilentSnake]

Basically I see Naruto as a character wearing a ADHD trait (who played any of Fallout games knows what I mean;) ):

ADHD:

You get 8 skill points less per experience level, but you get +2 endurance and strength.
Occasionally, you get a brilliant idea.

edit: It would also explain why he CAN be higher level than Kakashi but still suck in general (you can be level 20, but you still suck ass compared to my lvl 18 char with +20 skill points per level!) :D

[Archangel]

Lol that's funny, it represents naruto's growth rate perfectly.

[Uchiha Barles]

Did you see the freaking explosion range that thing has? If he did manage to throw it it would be one of the most powerful jutsus we've ever seen.



Wouldn't that require high chakra control? And doesn't naruto suck at that?

If you remember the training for forming the rasengan, it's description said to be able to do the technique, you needed to power out as much chakra as you could and at the same time, control it to the point that it not only forms a sphere, but does not lose it's shape when coming into contact with anything. I doubt Naruto still has severe chakra control problems after that.

@Abdula

No doubt there's more to his "godhood" then just the chakra modulation. I bet it has to do with the Rinnegan. Not that it takes a genius to guess that.

Lolzors!! @ ADHD comment.

[Archangel]

Don't confuse chakra manipulation with chakra control.

Chakra manipulation allows the user to control a huge mass of chakra to it's liking as to form a weapon ( rasengan or chidori )

Chakra control consists in flowing your chakra around your body as to perform jutsu, just how sasuke has to send it to his lungs and then turn it to fire and sakura to her hands and then quickly release it to make those super punches ( but she's a pro at it )

The rasengan does require some chakra control ( sending it to your hand ) but that comes easy to naruto since he has so much of it it's practically leaking out of his body.
The reason why naruto gets owned by genjutsu so much is because he's so bad at chakra control.

[Uchiha Barles]

Well, might have a point about chakra manipulation and chakra control being distinct...maybe. Thing about genjutsu is, everyone gets owned by it. Assuming that I buy into manipulation and control being distinct, Shikamaru must have rather fantastic chakra manipulation abilities, yet he had to break his own finger to escape a genjutsu. One that probably wasn't on the level of Itachi's genjutsu. Plus, Naruto did break one of Itachi's genjutsus, but got easily caught in another during the Itachi clone fight. During the Orochimaru's war against Konoha, the reason Naruto got caught by the mass sleep jutsu, was likely because he didn't even realize what was happening.

At the very least, the link between manipulation and genjutsu isn't as you say it is, leaving open to further interpretation what chakra manipulation is. Not to mention, what was stated about Naruto was that his chakra CONTROL is what was lacking. If manipulation and control are distinct, they we simply don't know his manipulation potential. That would make a jutsu like I described, fair game for Naruto if Kishi decided he wanted him to have one.

[Abdula]

Okay don't try to make an argument based on genjutsu thats just ridiculous. The level of genjutsu Kabuto used during the chuunin exam and the level of Genjutsu Itachi uses are two very very different things. Oh and the reason Naruto got caught by the mass sleep genjutsu was because no one taught him how to break genjutsus yet. Kakashi himself said he only taught it to Sakura. Whether Naruto is good at chakra control or not he now knows how to get out of them and I think he would be able to break out of most low to mid level genjutsu simply because he has so much damn chakra he can simply overpower the technique. Just like what he did or tried to do with Itachi, but that alone wouldn't be enough to escape from high level genjutsus like Itachi uses.

Anyway as far as chakra control goes Naruto sucks at it, that is why he still needs to use shadow clones to form the rasengan.

[Archangel]

Anyway as far as chakra control goes Naruto sucks at it, that is why he still needs to use shadow clones to form the rasengan.

Yep you're right i forgot to mention that too

@ Barles That post kind of went all around the place but i'll try to answer some of those questions

- Sakura broke the genjutsu because she already had fairly good chakra control at that time, shikamaru too i guess but then again kabuto isn't a genjutsu type and the technique he used was meant for long range not power, just enough to get the weaklings out of the way.

- I'm sorry i don't know what you're talking about i don't remeber naruto getting out of any genjutsu especially itachi's

- Link between manipulation and genjutsu?? There isn't any link between the 2 as far as i know, you may be confusing it with control again.

- As for his potential for manipulation, he was able to control the ultimate form of chakra manipulation ( the rasengan ), so even tough he needs a shadow clone to use it i'd say he has talent in that area at least

[rockmanj]

Anyway as far as chakra control goes Naruto sucks at it, that is why he still needs to use shadow clones to form the rasengan.

I was under the impression that he didn't really need to, but that it was quicker for him to just use kbj to do it. I think we've seen him do it a few times without clones.

[Abdula]

I forgot to mention, I don't think chakra control and chakra manipulation are as distinct as you are making them out to be. I think they are very closely related even though they may not be that exact same thing but I would think the two go hand in hand, meaning you need to have great chakra control to be good at manipulation. For example Naruto is said to suck at chakra control but the rasengan is said to be the ultimate form of shape manipulation. If the two were not related then there would be no reason for Naruto to need to use shadow clones.

And I definitely think both control and manipulation are related to genjutsu. Jiraiya said that using genjutsu is definitely about chakra control but the way he explained how to get out of genjutsu, seemed like chakra manipulation to me.

I was under the impression that he didn't really need to, but that it was quicker for him to just use kbj to do it. I think we've seen him do it a few times without clones.
Really when? The only time I remember Naruto using rasengan without clones is when he was first learning how to do it but then the technique was still said to be incomplete, the only other time was when he was fighting Sasuke and that was the Kyuubi's chakra. And why the hell would making a clone first and then using the clone to make rasengan be quicker than just making it himself. That just makes no sense.

[Tyreal]

Really when? The only time I remember Naruto using rasengan without clones is when he was first learning how to do it but then the technique was still said to be incomplete, the only other time was when he was fighting Sasuke and that was the Kyuubi's chakra. And why the hell would making a clone first and then using the clone to make rasengan be quicker than just making it himself. That just makes no sense.

If I remember correctly (and I may very well not since it has been a long time since I read/watched it) the only thing that Naruto couldn't do while he was training was keep the Rasnegan compressed on impact and the clones stop moulding the chakara as soon as it moves away from them. That means that he should be able to do it without the clones just not one handed and he has to concentrate on making it. As for why he would use a shadow clone instead of not making one I think I answered that in my last sentence, Naruto has to concentrate more on making the Rasengan when he does it on his own without the aid of a Kagebunshin, which takes his mind off the fight and leaves him open. When he uses the Kagebunshin however he can keep his eye's on his enemy and if neccesary dodge/counter any attack.

[Archangel]

For example Naruto is said to suck at chakra control but the rasengan is said to be the ultimate form of shape manipulation. If the two were not related then there would be no reason for Naruto to need to use shadow clones.

And I definitely think both control and manipulation are related to genjutsu. Jiraiya said that using genjutsu is definitely about chakra control but the way he explained how to get out of genjutsu, seemed like chakra manipulation to me.

Actually, it just means that naruto sucks at yet another ability. Anyway i'm not saying they're completely unrelated, but that they are indeed 2 different things.

Actually i don't think manipulation has anything to do with it, all you have to do is disrupt the control your opponent has over your chakra by using your own. Remember the example jiraya gave naruto, he had to stop the flow of chakra on his feet and then quickly resume it at full force, that doesn't have anything to do with manipulation, just control.


As for the 1 hand rasengan, guys if he could do it with 1 hand don't you think he would have used it by now? And wouldn't that stand to fact that he would only need 1 clones to use the rasenshruiken?

[Abdula]

:(
@Tyreal: While you do have a point, you seem to be forgetting that the only thing the rasengan was strong enough to do when he made it himself with his two hands, was strip the bark off trees. Hence it being labeled incomplete. Look here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/161/07/) and here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/161/11/). As for Naruto not needing the clones once the molding is complete, I think it was already mentioned that once the technique is created its self sustaining.

Why Naruto needs the clones is explained right here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/161/12/). Naruto knows exactly what he has to do he just can't do it properly because he sucks at chakra control so he needs the clones to help him. It has nothing to do with concentrating on his opponent, he releases the chakra and the clone takes care of the rotation and compression.

Actually i don't think manipulation has anything to do with it, all you have to do is disrupt the control your opponent has over your chakra by using your own. Remember the example jiraya gave naruto, he had to stop the flow of chakra on his feet and then quickly resume it at full force, that doesn't have anything to do with manipulation, just control.
I already took care of explaining the need for clones to use rasengan. Anyway I think you're right. It probably is just chakra control. Manipulation is probably limited to just changing your chakra's shape or nature and everything else is control.

[animus]

Hah, that last panel looks like a reacharound.

[Archangel]

I assume that the only reason why he was able to do it using just 1 hand while in 1-tail kyuubi mode is because he was already surrounded by chakra, which meant he could skip that step and just use chakra manipulation to spin it into the rasengan.

That's just an assumption of course, i suspect that he was only able to do it because using a shadow clone at that time would look exceptionally dumb and kishi just wanted to end that fight with a the rasengan going against the chidori.

[Abdula]

Or maybe just because the Kyuubi's chakra is sentient thus he can already consciously control it with just his mind. Hence the arm stretching, tail whipping and all the other crazy things we've seen him do with the Kyuubi's chakra.

-Hah I spelled crazy, KrayZ. I spend way too much time on this forum.

[Archangel]

That could also be why. Then again doesn't it raise the question, why wasn't that rasengan red instead of blue? He was using the kyuubi's chakra wasn't he?

[Abdula]

Uh, Naruto's rasengan was purple. Do you remember what primary colors you have to combine to get purple. Thats right, red and blue.

[Archangel]

Re-watched the episode, you're right.

But lets back to discussing the chapter shall we?

As for the chakra demulators or whatever, aren't you guys over-thinking them a little bit? To me i'd say they're just like another ninja tool for pain or at least i hope so. If those were really the reason why pain can do all the shit he can do the rinnegan would look way less cool.

[Abdula]

No its not the reason why he can do all the things he can do, but it would explain the link between the six bodies. Think something like what Father did in FMA.

[Naruto_RNG]

Did you see the freaking explosion range that thing has? If he did manage to throw it it would be one of the most powerful jutsus we've ever seen.

Its got to hit something for it to explode unless naruto added a remote trigger sequence to it. Thats where the speed issue comes in.

[Terracosmo]

So am I the only one who thought it was kinda cool seeing all 9 hosts in the splash image?

[Uchiha Barles]

Ah! A ghost in drag! Aaaaaaah! xD. It was kind of cool, but most of us thought it was just too little too late.

About Naruto's lack of chakra control and the possibility of throwing a rasengan, there are only three people who can do that technique. I'm pretty sure that there are people who even with decent chakra control abilities wouldn't be able to do the rasengan, even if they had the power. It takes exceptional control abilities to pull that technique off. So Naruto not being able to do it one handed doesn't necessarily mean he sucks (i.e. average or worse) at chakra control. Also did you guys consider that not all Rasengans are created equal? The fourth's, Jiraiya's, and Naruto's are probably all different, and I'd bet my bottom dollar that Naruto's ball has the most compressed compressed chakra in it. That would make it more difficult to shape and maintain than that of the other two.

[fahoumh]

So am I the only one who thought it was kinda cool seeing all 9 hosts in the splash image?

No, I also thought it was pretty cool.

[Abdula]

Ah! A ghost in drag! Aaaaaaah! xD. It was kind of cool, but most of us thought it was just too little too late.

About Naruto's lack of chakra control and the possibility of throwing a rasengan, there are only three people who can do that technique. I'm pretty sure that there are people who even with decent chakra control abilities wouldn't be able to do the rasengan, even if they had the power. It takes exceptional control abilities to pull that technique off. So Naruto not being able to do it one handed doesn't necessarily mean he sucks (i.e. average or worse) at chakra control. Also did you guys consider that not all Rasengans are created equal? The fourth's, Jiraiya's, and Naruto's are probably all different, and I'd bet my bottom dollar that Naruto's ball has the most compressed compressed chakra in it. That would make it more difficult to shape and maintain than that of the other two.
Is someone paying you to ride Naruto's bandwagon? Naruto sucks at chakra control its a fact, there is no disputing that. Secondly so far a total of four people know rasengan, Naruto, Jiraiya, Minato and Kakashi. The other three can all do it with only one hand but Naruto requires three hands to do what they do with one hand, in my book that pretty much means he sucks.

Yeah I figured not all rasengans are created equal, but there is no reason to believe Naruto's rasengan is stronger than Jiraiya's since we never saw Jiraiya use it in a serious battle and we never saw Minato use it at all, and I would think his rasengan would be the strongest. It being his own technique and all and what is it they said, the strongest technique you can use is the one you create yourself. Sasuke's chidori isn't stronger than Kakashi's raikiri why would Naruto's rasengan be stronger than Minato's?


I'm pretty sure that there are people who even with decent chakra control abilities wouldn't be able to do the rasengan, even if they had the power.
You know why they wouldn't be able to do it, because they were never taught. Anyway I don't think this statement makes any sense since Naruto himself skirted the need for good chakra control by using shadow clones.

-And what makes you think Naruto's rasengan has the most compressed chakra in it? Please tell me its not just because Naruto has alot of chakra.

[Uchiha Barles]

What do you mean there's no disputing that Naruto has shitty chakra control? The post you quoted did just that. And no, I don't think Naruto's Rasengan has more compressed chakra because of the amount of chakra he has. Rather, I think it's because of the amount of chakra he can put out in burst. It's been both stated and demonstrated that this was a talent of his. And the feel of Naruto's character is that his potential for burst chakra output is more than anyone elses. The fourth might have had more, but on feel, I doubt it. Also, how do you know Sasuke's Chidori isn't stronger than Kakashi's? You're making the same assumption about Sasuke/Kakashi's chidori that I am with Naruto/Jiraiya/Minato's rasengan, without even a hint of an explanation.

What Naruto dodged by using clones to make the rasengan, is EXCEPTIONAL chakra control, not good chakra control. It seems like you're not remembering the big deal that was made about the technique's difficulty level. It takes EXCEPTIONAL power and EXCEPTIONAL control to use the Rasengan. You can't just be GOOD at those things to pull it off. So just because he couldn't do the rasengan with one hand, doesn't mean he's particularly lacking in the chakra control as compared to other ninja. This is the reason I said the second thing you quoted. So even if they were taught, if they lack exceptional control (which again, decent does not equal exceptional) or exceptional power, they can't do the rasengan, even if it was shown to them. This includes Kakashi. His rasengan is useless in battle. Lack of power.

[Archangel]

Got dammit Barles, for the 100th time the reason why naruto is so good at those jutsus is because he has a shitload of chakra,

THIS SHIT HAS BEEN EXPLAINED BEFORE ( since you like to use caps so much...).

Don't you remember the chibi sasukes and sakuras??

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b232/paulosergio96/Untitled-1-4.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b232/paulosergio96/Untitled-2-1.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b232/paulosergio96/Untitled-3-1.jpg

I've already taken these photos from the episode i have in my pc, if that's still not enough and you want a written explanation just go watch episode 52.

I'm all for discussing theories of all kinds no matter how crazy they are but the fact is that you're wrong and it's already been proved you're wrong? Can we pls move on now?

[Uchiha Barles]

What is it about 3 years passing by that you guys aren't getting? You do realize, that Ebisu was going to take Naruto and focus train his chakra control right? This is a TRAINABLE thing. In three years, one can improve on it and NOT suck at it. Not to mention his chakra control became a lot better during the water walking training after jiraiya removed his seal. In the three years since that episode, starting 2 episodes later, he's had plenty of opportunity to train his chakra control. I'm not talking nonsense here. Hate the character if you want. Move on from this topic if you want. None of that changes that Naruto does not necessarily suck at chakra control any longer.

[Abdula]

Naruto has shitty chakra control. It was said in the beginning of the series. Its the reason he couldn't use bushin jutsu, it was said again when Kakashi thought them how to walk up trees, it was said again during the chuunin exam when Kakashi brought in Ebisu to help Naruto improve his chakra control. Right after that it was said again by Jiraiya but he said in Naruto's case not being at good chakra control wasn't important because he has so much chakra that he doesn't need to be concerned about wasting his chakra.

As for why I doubt Sasuke chidori's is stronger than Kakashi's raikiri and why I doubt Naruto's rasengan is stronger than Minato's is because of this. It was said that an ultimate ninjutsu you yourself create would be more powerful than one you were simply taught or learned how to do. Thus its logical to think that the creator of a technique would be better at the technique that anyone who simply learned or copied the technique. Therefore Kakashi>Sasuke, Minato>Naruto.

Anyway there is another thing, you go on about the amount of chakra Naruto can put out in a burst but what does that matter? You said you need to have exceptional power and exceptional control to use rasengan but the power of the rasengan depends on how much control you have, i.e. how much chakra you can fit into the rasengan. So the better you are at chakra control the more chakra you'll be able to squeeze into the rasengan, so it would make sense that someone with exceptional chakra control would have a more powerful rasengan.

What is it about 3 years passing by that you guys aren't getting? You do realize, that Ebisu was going to take Naruto and focus train his chakra control right? This is a TRAINABLE thing. In three years, one can improve on it and NOT suck at it. Not to mention his chakra control became a lot better during the water walking training after jiraiya removed his seal. In the three years since that episode, starting 2 episodes later, he's had plenty of opportunity to train his chakra control. I'm not talking nonsense here. Hate the character if you want. Move on from this topic if you want. None of that changes that Naruto does not necessarily suck at chakra control any longer.
Yeah uh huh, so you're willing to believe that in the three years where Naruto learned absolutely nothing he suddenly became good at chakra control, ignoring the fact that he has no talent for it, and the guy who trained him in chakra control was the same guy who told him not to bother with it. Well you can believe that if you want but it still doesn't help your point. Even if he some how mastered chakra control in the three years he was with Jiraiya it doesn't explain how he was able to use rasengan in the first place.

I missed your stupid comment about Kakashi's rasengan being useless in battle and him lacking power. Now you're just spouting bull.

[Yukimura]

Naruto had shitty chakra control up until around the time he did the tree training, then he got a little bit better, then he started the walk on water training, and he got a little bit better, then he learned the Rasengan, and he got even better still. The fact that he couldn't do those things and then learned to do them demonstrates that his ability to control chakra has improved as the series has gone on. From what you've said it seems like you don't think Naruto has made any progress at all between chapter 420 and chapter 1. Perhaps it can be argued that he's made the least progress of anyone but I don't see how you can justify saying "his chakra control sucks" using "way back in part 1 he had problems controlling his chakra" as the basis for your assertion. It's like you'd make the point that the Naruto in chapter 1 was able to do all the same things with his chakra that the Naruto can do now because his ability to control chakra hasn't increased at all.

As to technique strength correlating to technique creator, look at what Sasuke has done with Chidori. Kakashi has never demonstrated that he does anything with Raikiri but stab people with it, but Sasuke has taken the original idea and created two new, and I would argue more useful, variations on it. Whether Sasuke's version of the original technique is 'stronger' isn't something I think we can reasonably judge but if I had to choose between being able to do Kakashi's Raikiri and being able to do Sasuke's Chidori, as well as Chidori Nagashi, as well as whatever he calls it when he throws it I'd definitely choose Sasuke's line of abilities for their versatility.

I agree with your assessment on the Rasengan however, the highest compression ratio and rotational speed is going to have the highest destructive power. Still, I think the fact that Naruto uses two separate minds to create his Rasengan raises the possibility that his could be more powerful than a single mind Rasengan in the same way that a dual core processor has better performance than a single core processor when computing two unrelated things. No matter how good one's chakra control is, outputting a steady stream of chakra and rotating that chakra both compete for mental resources, thus doing both at once would be less efficient then being able to do them in parallel on two different platforms.

[Archangel]

My last attempt to make you see the obvious Barles

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b232/paulosergio96/Untitled-1-5.jpg

As you can see Jiraya's method of training never involved chakra control, he always believed that he should focus on using naruto's huge amount of chakra to develop bigger and better techniques for him to use

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b232/paulosergio96/Untitled-2-2.jpg

Jiraya also knew this, so why would he train naruto's chakra control instead of just using the kyuubi's chakra to improve his fighting style?

I'm seriously done trying to make you understand this. You don't even have to admit you're wrong even tough you probably already know you are and that's why you're just spouting random bullshit now, just drop the subject instead of continuing to make a fool of yourself.



As for why I doubt Sasuke chidori's is stronger than Kakashi's raikiri and why I doubt Naruto's rasengan is stronger than Minato's is because of this. It was said that an ultimate ninjutsu you yourself create would be more powerful than one you were simply taught or learned how to do.

Hmm i have my doubts about this. If what you said was true that would imply that after that jutsu was developed there wouldn't be any room for improvement and we have seen the rasengan being improved quite a number of times ( ultimate rasengan, oodama rasengan ). I really couldn't compare the raikiri to the chidori right now so i can't say that one is stronger than the other, i think we'll have to wait and see.

[Uchiha Barles]

Naruto has shitty chakra control. It was said in the beginning of the series. Its the reason he couldn't use bushin jutsu, it was said again when Kakashi thought them how to walk up trees, it was said again during the chuunin exam when Kakashi brought in Ebisu to help Naruto improve his chakra control. Right after that it was said again by Jiraiya but he said in Naruto's case not being at good chakra control wasn't important because he has so much chakra that he doesn't need to be concerned about wasting his chakra.

As for why I doubt Sasuke chidori's is stronger than Kakashi's raikiri and why I doubt Naruto's rasengan is stronger than Minato's is because of this. It was said that an ultimate ninjutsu you yourself create would be more powerful than one you were simply taught or learned how to do. Thus its logical to think that the creator of a technique would be better at the technique that anyone who simply learned or copied the technique. Therefore Kakashi>Sasuke, Minato>Naruto.

Anyway there is another thing, you go on about the amount of chakra Naruto can put out in a burst but what does that matter? You said you need to have exceptional power and exceptional control to use rasengan but the power of the rasengan depends on how much control you have, i.e. how much chakra you can fit into the rasengan. So the better you are at chakra control the more chakra you'll be able to squeeze into the rasengan, so it would make sense that someone with exceptional chakra control would have a more powerful rasengan.

Yeah uh huh, so you're willing to believe that in the three years where Naruto learned absolutely nothing he suddenly became good at chakra control, ignoring the fact that he has no talent for it, and the guy who trained him in chakra control was the same guy who told him not to bother with it. Well you can believe that if you want but it still doesn't help your point. Even if he some how mastered chakra control in the three years he was with Jiraiya it doesn't explain how he was able to use rasengan in the first place.

I missed your stupid comment about Kakashi's rasengan being useless in battle and him lacking power. Now you're just spouting bull.

You're about about kakashi's rasengan. I have a shitty tranlation that made me believe that kakashi saying he failed at elemental recomposition + rasengan, was actually him saying he sucked at the rasengan, period. That's about all you're right on though. Naruto did not spend 3 years of training to learn nothing. At the very least, 1) He gained access to more tails, and 2) he gained superior tactical ability in combat. The second thing I just mentioned is along the lines of those basic things that everyone has historically complained about naruto lacking. I see no reason why in 2.5 years, that would be the only basic thing he's trained in. He probably spent much of that time refining his chakra control, his stealth tactics, his tracking tactics, his general awareness, things of that nature. So yeah, I'll go ahead and believe and those three years did result in improved chakra control, and in general, improved basic abilities.

Ok, you bring up a good point about the rasengan depending highly on the control factor, and yukimura refines it by mentioning a compression ratio and a rotational speed. I'll go ahead and mention the description of the technique. It requires the highest chakra output possible and the highest control possible for it to work. I also mentioned that the ball of chakra was not to lose its shape no matter what it came in contact with. In terms of yukimura's vocabulary, if you have 2 rasengans that are the same size, the one with more chakra in it, is the one with the higher compression ratio. So yeah, burst chakra output would matter in creating the rasengan.

@Archangel:

Jiraiya never believed in training naruto's chakra control...yet, he taught naruto to walk on water, and realized that naruto's difficulty in learning to walk on water came from lack of CHAKRA CONTROL on account of orochimaru's seal. He then taught him the rasengan..which involved training one's chakra control like no other technique we've seen thus far. He also taught him how to access and control his demon chakra. Some things you can get from what the characters in the show say. Other things, you have to get from what they DO.

[Abdula]

I do believe you guys are simply incapable of understanding me. First off all I never said Naruto was incapable of improving his chakra control skills. In fact during his training Jiraiya mentioned that he taught him to walk on water and made him use the balloons and the rubber ball just so Naruto could get to the level of chakra control necessary for him to use rasengan. Uchiha Barles however kept mentioning how you needed exceptional chakra control to use rasengan which is true and I said Naruto managed to skirt that by using the shadow clones. So even though he doesn't have exceptional chakra control he can still use the technique because he has the extra hands.

And again with the original technique thing you guys don't understand what I mean. Yuki used the perfect example of what Sasuke did after learning chidori. After learning chidori he managed to take what he learned from that technique and created new techniques that were not only better suited to him but techniques that the creator of chidori himself is probably not even capable of. You guys seem to think I mean Kakashi taught Sasuke chidori so anything Sasuke does with it is not going to match up to Kakashi's technique and thats not what I meant at all. Sasuke took the technique and made it his, just like Archangel mentioned Naruto's oodama rasengan and fuuton rasengan. If you create the technique yourself it will be more powerful than something you simply learned or copied so while Naruto's oodama rasengan and fuuton rasengan are undoubtedly more powerful than the fourth's original rasengan. I would think the fourth would be better at rasengan that Naruto is simply because he created the technique therefore it would be most suited to him.


So yeah, burst chakra output would matter in creating the rasengan
Like I said that only makes a difference if you are able to fit that excess chakra into the rasengan and to do that you have to have exceptional chakra control, and Naruto is said to have no talent for it. Minato on the other hand was said to be exceptionally talented, the fact that he created the technique is proof enough.


I agree with your assessment on the Rasengan however, the highest compression ratio and rotational speed is going to have the highest destructive power. Still, I think the fact that Naruto uses two separate minds to create his Rasengan raises the possibility that his could be more powerful than a single mind Rasengan in the same way that a dual core processor has better performance than a single core processor when computing two unrelated things. No matter how good one's chakra control is, outputting a steady stream of chakra and rotating that chakra both compete for mental resources, thus doing both at once would be less efficient then being able to do them in parallel on two different platforms.
What you seem to be missing is its not two different minds. What made the rasengan an A rank tehcnique was the degree of chakra control neccessary to use it. Creating the rasengan involves three processes. Releasing the chakra, compressing the chakra and rotating the chakra. Naruto couldn't do all of that with one hand so using a clone and a total of three hands he split the work up. So using the clone doesn't improve on Naruto's basic skills at all it just splits the tasks up so the work load is something he is capable of. It doesn't compare to the fourth who was able to do all of that with just one hand. So in this case it isn't that the dual core is more efficient than the single core, its that Naruto's processor was defective so he needed a dual core to do what Minato could do with a single core.


Do you guys understand what I mean or should I not even bother?:(

[Death BOO Z]

Everybody, please stop beating this dead horse around.

General chackra crap:
Naruto has problems with chackra. you can call it chackra control, manipulation or lack of talent. same thing. Naruto starting line with anything concerning chackra is lower than most of the other people, and he'll need more time to 'catch up' to others. however, when he does manage to 'reach' others, his abilities don't fall short than anyone else.

Rasengan:
1. Jiraya: we've never seen him use it to kill or even seriously hurt someone, so his level of skill is unknown.
2. Kakashi: said that he can't use it properly (and not only about adding lightning), and seeing as he uses the far inferior jutsu as his supermove, I'll go with saying that his rasengan is rather useless.
3. Yamato: Did we ever see him use it alone? I only remember him doing a combo with Naruto... anyways, I don't think that he can.
4. The 4th (minato?): well, he probably did use the rasengan as a killing move, and he probably could do it perfectly. still, he didn't combine his element with it, and I don't think he add some special value to it.

so I'm going with Naruto having the best rasengan around, even though he needs two clones to execute it (I suspect it's only because nobody told him to practice doing it with one hand yet, Naruto is that much of an idiot)

Naruto 3 year vacation.
I'm starting to suspect that Naruto did practically nothing, learning to control three tails couldn't have taken more than a few months, and he doesn't seem to have learned anything else (unless the very basic mid-air use of kage bunshin took him two years to learn).
no matter how you twist it around, his skill hasn't gone up so much during that time.

Rasengan crap:
We've been saying it for a few years now, but the rasengan doesn't lack destructive power. in the hands of a skilled melee fighter, it's a perfect offense, superior to chackra scapels and gentle-fist. Naruto learning to throw it is simply to slightly increase it's hit probability, but in the long run, it won't solve the problem.

[Sidnne]

6 pages of you dipshits arguing over the dumbest shit imaginable simply because none of you will stop until you convince everyone else to see things your way.

Every single post is like 5 paragraphs long and some even contain images. Do you really have nothing to do with your time? I hope you guys put the same amount of energy into your real life activities that you do into arguing about Naruto online.

[Archangel]

6 pages of you dipshits arguing over the dumbest shit imaginable simply because none of you will stop until you convince everyone else to see things your way.

Every single post is like 5 paragraphs long and some even contain images. Do you really have nothing to do with your time? I hope you guys put the same amount of energy into your real life activities that you do into arguing about Naruto online.

I'm sorry i was under the impression that this was a forum in which we were allowed to actually discuss mangas and our ideas and theories about said mangas

I guess we should just have followed Sidnne's example and just have spent our internet hours spanking the monkey

[Sidnne]

I'm sorry i was under the impression that this was a forum in which we were allowed to actually discuss mangas and our ideas and theories about said mangas

I guess we should just have followed Sidnne's example and just have spent our internet hours spanking the monkey

Hoho, Zing!