Who are you voting for in Nov and why?

[Animeniax]

Or if you're not in the greatest country in the world, which candidate would you vote for, and why?

I'm leaning McCain, but the more I read about Palin the more I think it's a bad choice because she could be president if/when McCain dies. Besides I think he'll go the status quo and continue GOP policies that have us in a huge mess.

I like some of Obama's policies, but I've seen him guilty of changing his position to more moderate stances after winning Democratic primaries with leftist policies. He's also guilty of using mud-slinging tactics when he keeps calling for a clean election. I don't know enough about Biden, but he could very well be the next president when some wacko gets a sniper rifle, so Biden's character and politics should be a concern.

For me, Obama's race is a definite factor, but not so much because of his character or policies, but what his people and their 17% of the population will get from having Obama in office. Plus the even bigger downside if something bad happens to Obama once he's elected. The Rodney King riots will be boy scout campfire festivities in comparison to what will happen then.

[Kraco]

If I were a citizen of the USA and still retained my current personality, I'd vote for Obama. Conservatives as strict as McCain (and Bush) don't simply exist over here, at least not as a political force of any significance. So, their whole world is totally alien to me. From my point of view Obama is closer to the politicians I'm used to, though I'm not saying exactly similar.

I don't usually vote for candidates with no chances whatsoever to make it, even if their view was much closer to mine. Voting is most of the time voting for the lesser evil in any case.

[Assertn]

They both suck. I was leaning more towards McCain but now that he chose Palin, I lost interest in both parties.

One thing's for sure though....I really don't like Obama's tax strategy.

[Animeniax]

Palin would be a nonfactor if McCain survives the term, so really you should vote for him unless his policies changed significantly. Can you expound on which parts of Obama's tax policies you don't agree with?

[Yukimura]

I'd imagine it's the part where people who make a lot of money (like st33v tends to) would get taxed more than people who make less.

Anyway I'm voting Obama purely out of anti-Republican-Party loyalty. I was caught up in Obama fever during the primaries but a few days after he won the nomination I had an epiphany that even if he becomes President he won't be able to change anything because he'll have to fight pretty much everyone else in Washington and the support of the masses doesn't give much clout around here (unless you're Marion Barry). I think Obama will at least try to be better but ultimately he'll just Jimmy Carter it and fail. Still, I'd rather trust to hope for change then support McCain and his potentially-fundamentalist, moose-killing, lipstick-wearing-pitbull, trophy VP choice and their more "we may have broken it, but you should fix it yourself" attitude.

[The Heretic Azazel]

I don't believe in voting, and I won't vote until a candidate I like miraculously comes along. How can you relate to candidates when they got there by kissing all that ass and having all that money? If there are people out there--and I am most certain there are--who have the ability to turn this country around in a significant way, they'd be too damn broke to run for President anyway.

I am mostly anti-Republican EXCEPT government needs to play a smaller role in our lives. As far as McCain goes, he has age and temper against him, you know his blood pressure is up. What I do appreciate is McCain standing up for his beliefs, though I don't agree with him. Obama on the other hand, I'd like to see what he does with the country, but he doesn't have anything he STANDS for. I too am troubled by his position-switching over the years and I don't see anything close to his heart that he has really stood up and fought for. I'd hate to see McCain in office though, I can't stand all that Republican religious zealot nonsense, why can't we have an atheist president?

[animus]

No offense, but I've been following McCain's campaign since before Huckabee dropped, and he has no idea what he's doing. I can say with 99% certainty that it'll be a repeat of Bush's two terms.

I've always been more pro-democratic, left wing, liberal, yadda yadda. Obama's not that great of a candidate either, but it sure as hell beats having McCain run the country. And I definitely do not want that crazy woman in the big seat if he croaks which is quite likely.

[Jaitne]

I liked McCain before he had Bush on his side.. and before he had Palin on his ticket. he could have picked someone a whole lot better, in my opinion.

Palin is too conservative for my tastes, and if the Republican ticket does win, well, we all know they're going to go after some things (Roe vs Wade), more than likely.

Also, from what I've seen, there was no "you're not allowed to mud-sling" there was a "You better not attack the families," though. They can talk about each other all they want, as long as they keep families out of the mix.

But I can't vote, anyway, my birthday is about two weeks after the election. Yay me >.>

If you don't like any of the main parties (Republican or Democrat), you could vote for a third party. Just because they're not getting as much notice, doesn't mean they're not there.

[Y]

As I watched John McCain slowly shed every semblance of the "maverick" image he worked so hard to cultivate in his bid for his party's nomination, I felt truly embarassed that in 2000, as a 15 year old, I had respected McCain as a wrongheaded but principled member of the "loyal opposition", so to speak. At least I can blame that on being 15. What excuses will his supporters in 2008 use?

I vote for Barack Obama because conservatism is disgusting. It's a shame we can't nominate anyone left of center for fear of awakening American's fears about the evil liberal socialist boogeyman.

[Board of Command]

If I was American, I'd vote for Obama because of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65I0HNvTDH4

[Uchiha Barles]

As far as domestic policy is concerned, I'd vote for Bob Barr of the Libertarian Party. He's an ACTUAL conservative when it comes to taxation. Get the fuck out of our incomes, thank you.

If I vote though, it would be based on foreign policy and the candidate's ability to do some repairs to our tarnished world image. Obama is black, which makes him different from what this country's always had as a leader. I really think that'll make a difference to nations with darker skinned people (middle east anyone?) Furthermore, this guy is a great orator, which you've heard to death I'm sure, and he's smart as hell. Whether he's swapping stances on things or not, he always sounds like he knows what he's talking about. I think he'd be much better to fix our tarnished image than McCain.

Consequently, I'd vote for McCain, and I hope he wins. He's our best shot at fucking up our image even more, causing some country somewhere in the world to put the boot up America's ass that it so desperately needs and wake it's people the fuck up.

edited for readability and a missing word.

[Jaitne]

I always did wonder.. why don't Americans pick a president that's well liked by other countries?

Is it because a lot of Americans are very nationalist and want an American that's only liked by Americans or is it because we think they'll actually do a good job?

I do know that conservatives and liberals have some good points, and right now, the American government is being slightly liberal by taking over those few companies that messed up big time and caused a lot of money to be lost.

[Animeniax]

I probably won't vote either since I'd have to send off an absentee ballot to vote. Besides, the popular vote doesn't mean squat anyway.


I'd imagine it's the part where people who make a lot of money (like st33v tends to) would get taxed more than people who make less.I doubt Assertn makes so much where either party's tax policies would let him keep that much more of what he makes. The thing with taxation is that both parties will take their cut of your money, the difference is how they spend it. The Republicans will spend it on the war in Iraq and bailing out Wall Street. The Democrats will spend it on social welfare programs. At least those are their party lines.


If I vote though, it would be based on foreign policy and the candidate's ability to do some repairs to our tarnished world image. Obama is black, which makes him different from what this country's always had as a leader. I really think that'll make a difference to nations with darker skinned people (middle east anyone?)Actually him being black would work against the US, especially in the middle east and East Asia, where a brother can't get a break. Just ask Rockmanj. Both areas are notoriously racist, particularly against American blacks. If Obama was Muslim, that would change things.


I always did wonder.. why don't Americans pick a president that's well liked by other countries?Americans couldn't care less what other countries think of us. Foreign policy is a distant second to domestic concerns.

[Kraco]

Actually him being black would work against the US, especially in the middle east and East Asia, where a brother can't get a break. Just ask Rockmanj. Both areas are notoriously racist, particularly against American blacks.

Somehow I think it would be different for the president of the USA, though, compared to tourists or exchange students or random company workers transferred abroad. Few could afford to dismiss the leader of the biggest player in the global market just because of his skin colour.

I don't know if Obama feels anything towards Africa but maybe he does and would try to fix a few things over there. Europe is too disjointed and has too many old issues they can't overcome to do much good over there, Russia "fixes" things only by selling AKs and nuclear reactors, and China would deal with the devil for a little oil, so that leaves the USA as the only one who could make a real difference, I guess. Though I realise how unfair it's to automatically assume the USA would or could fix all the problems in the world...

[XanBcoo]

I vote for Barack Obama because conservatism is disgusting. It's a shame we can't nominate anyone left of center for fear of awakening American's fears about the evil liberal socialist boogeyman.
Well said. That's my line of reasoning as well. One of my new roommates is a huge political junkie, so I've recently become more aware of the current presidential race. And Goddamn do I think McCain is full of shit. Sarah Palin is worse. The entire Republican National Convention was a complete joke. It reached a level of parody rivaled only by Stephen Colbert.

I don't think I'll vote though. I don't want to feel responsible for voting in a candidate I know next to nothing about and have no intention of defending. I love Obama's plan for National Health Care, but I don't see too much else in his policies that attract me. I don't want to vote for the guy I'm indifferent about just to keep the shitheads out of office.

[Animeniax]

Yes, but racism runs deep. Their handling and discussions with Obama will not be overtly racially-motivated, but just under the diplomatic smile and nice talk will reside a hatred of the man simply because of the color of his skin.

This same hatred will probably be the reason McCain is the next president of the US. I've talked to people here in the US who don't know 2 cents about the issues and don't care, all they know is that they're voting for McCain. They won't openly admit it's because of race, but it fits since I've heard them use the "n" word often enough.

[Kraco]

I don't think I'll vote though.

Why not? I dare say there won't ever appear a politician - one with any chance of getting into the office - you completely feel shares your views of how things should be handled. So realistically speaking you shouldn't wait for such a miracle and should vote for the one who has at least something you believe in, or is at least a bit closer than the other one who has the best chances. That's realism. It never helped anybody but the worst guys when the larger audience stopped to give a shit about who and how the country is run. For one thing is sure: The fanatics you would never want to see in power vote each and every time.

[Assertn]

I doubt Assertn makes so much where either party's tax policies would let him keep that much more of what he makes. The thing with taxation is that both parties will take their cut of your money, the difference is how they spend it. The Republicans will spend it on the war in Iraq and bailing out Wall Street. The Democrats will spend it on social welfare programs. At least those are their party lines.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/06/09/ST2008060900950.html

All you gotta do is make at least $112k to see more benefit with McCain than Obama. The two highest brackets are ridiculous though -- he's basically forcing the top 1% to subsidize tax cuts for everyone else.

[Animeniax]

It seems to be a minimal benefit to those making combined less than $160k a year. The differences as the article states is in the top 2 income brackets, and while I feel for these top income groups, I probably won't be among them in the next 8 years of whoever's presidency, so I'm not hurting either way.

I'm wondering with all of the proposed tax cuts, where does McCain expect to get funds for the bailout and war in Iraq? Maybe this article was pre-bailout?

I think it says something good about Obama that he plans to charge himself and his upper-crust friends and supporters a much higher tax rate, though loop holes will always exist to help the rich avoid paying their taxes.

[David75]

You're in the same poised situation we had for the Royal vs Sarkozy vote in France.
None of them are worth it, but still you have to decide.

So Mc Cain vs Obama?

Should I vote, maybe Obama. Just because he isn't a Bush Clone.

But honestly, I do not think Obama can make it just because he is Black and it is an enormous drawback in the USA.

[Jaitne]

Well.. I think people should vote, just because if they don't, then they shouldn't really complain about who's put into office because they didn't help choose.

Though a lot of choices that are made are done by the Congress and not just the President, I thought.

[David75]

Well.. I think people should vote, just because if they don't, then they shouldn't really complain about who's put into office because they didn't help choose.

Though a lot of choices that are made are done by the Congress and not just the President, I thought.

In fact like in France, the problem comes from the fact that runners for president are a result of party choices and media.
The problem is that parties represent a very small portion of the population, like the media.

Yet the one elected will still run the nation.

I know you'll answer that everyone should apply to a party so that the choice of runners is better...

[Jaitne]

In some places in America, you can only vote for which party you're in (in the primary, I think it's called). Open and closed brackets?

Once the real runners are picked for each party, some places can choose not to place a party on their ballot if they're not popular enough, etc. Everyone who is of age, isn't in jail or on parole, and is registered can vote in America, I thought.

A party can pick who gets to head off, but the people are supposed to be the one who say who they like better or don't (at least in America). Then.. after they win the primaries, their party is supposed to officially do something that says they can run for president after they finish off their ticket.

You don't have to be in the party you're voting for,depending on where you are all the time, but you definitely don't have to be in the party you're voting for in the ending elections.

I also think you'll probably have to have some good qualities and have been in the government for such and such a time to be taken seriously as running for the presedential spot, popular parties or not.

[David75]

Yes of course you have other runners, even in France, but usually, in the end, only the parties' ones remain.

And the ones running for the party supremacy, when they lose, are smashed by the media, most of the time. Being smashed in that case is: black out on them, or only to remind everyone they didn't make it.

[Assassin]

I'd vote for mcain. Lets face it, america's foriegn policy (which is the only think i care about) wont change at all, regardless of who's president because ultimately its not the president who's deciding it. Even for domestic politics, you may have a black president but the rest of washington is still white. Dont expect miraculous changes just cuz a black guy gets elected.

Atleast with mcain, we'll see the fucked up shit that goes on and the world wont just turn a blind eye to the US and the terribly destructive shit that they do, both on the homefront and abroad. Obama has a lot more sense and though the policies wont change, he'll atleast make it seem like things are on the mend and we'll go back to the way things have been for the past 2 decades, with everyone getting fucked and white(rich) america getting everything it wants.

[Jaitne]

Yes of course you have other runners, even in France, but usually, in the end, only the parties' ones remain.

And the ones running for the party supremacy, when they lose, are smashed by the media, most of the time. Being smashed in that case is: black out on them, or only to remind everyone they didn't make it.

People in parties are the only ones that can run for president, I thought. Republicans and Democrats aren't the only ones with parties. There's the Green Party, the Libertarian Party, the Socialist Party, Communist Party, etc. There are so many parties in the US it's not even funny >.>

The Republican party is a little more organized than the Democratic one, and those two are the largest in America, but they're not the only ones who have had presidents, they're just the only ones who have had people become presidents in a while. That doesn't mean that some random, third party candidate can't get enough people to vote for him/her and win, it just hasn't happened lately.

[Uchiha Barles]

I'd vote for mcain. Lets face it, america's foriegn policy (which is the only think i care about) wont change at all, regardless of who's president because ultimately its not the president who's deciding it. Even for domestic politics, you may have a black president but the rest of washington is still white. Dont expect miraculous changes just cuz a black guy gets elected.

Atleast with mcain, we'll see the fucked up shit that goes on and the world wont just turn a blind eye to the US and the terribly destructive shit that they do, both on the homefront and abroad. Obama has a lot more sense and though the policies wont change, he'll atleast make it seem like things are on the mend and we'll go back to the way things have been for the past 2 decades, with everyone getting fucked and white(rich) america getting everything it wants.

Well, it wasn't JUST because he's black. It's primarily because he's smart, and at least his rhetoric says that while he doesn't have an aversion to combat if necessary, he'll do all he can to be as diplomatic as possible. I do think his color will make his reception a little bit better among people in the world whose skin tones matches his. Ani mentioned that there's deep seated racism against black americans in the middle east. Well, I've heard middle easterners, both in person and in the news, saying things that very closely paraphrase "these rich white devils are the cause of your problems, and ours."

Now, sure, while the rest of Washington may be primarily white, the president is kind of the face to the world. The actuality of the matter, matters less than you might think. Case in point, Dubya is essentially a script reader. Occasionally he goes off it, but no one likes it when he does. "His" policies aren't his. This is pretty much true for any president. However, in an international survey, Bush was voted as the second most dangerous person in the world following Osama Bin Laden. The script reader is seen as the #2 biggest threat to international peace and security.

[Idealistic]

Anyone who just doesn't give a damn like me? Somebody said to me, "It's because of people like me, that the world is in a mess."

lol.... Because I don't care about politics, the world becomes a mess? It's not only the presidents fault that this world, or, the US is so fucked up. It's the people. Actually, it's money.

[Jaitne]

Anyone who just doesn't give a damn like me? Somebody said to me, "It's because of people like me, that the world is in a mess."

lol.... Because I don't care about politics, the world becomes a mess? It's not only the presidents fault that this world, or, the US is so fucked up. It's the people. Actually, it's money.

<.< You should go talk about the future of America.

The president is appointed by the people, so if they wanted a messed up place, then it is there fault, but the people who did vote have a bigger reason to complain. The person either didn't do the job they wanted them to do, or they never wanted them in office in the first place.

If you didn't make a choice, then, like you said, you didn't care, so however things go.. I guess you're just going to have to deal with it like everyone else. It's not because of the people who don't vote that the world is a mess, in my opinion, because they don't. You can be mad or happy about what happens, but you can't say you had a choice in it.

But that's my opinion :O

[darkmetal505]

Obama because it's better for the world.

[animus]

Honestly, when I think about it. I don't wanna vote Obama in. Not because I don't like him, but it might be a JFK repeat. There'll be white supremacists and just straight up dumbasses that can't take someone that isn't white being President. I fear there may be attempts on his life.

[Kraco]

Ani mentioned that there's deep seated racism against black americans in the middle east. Well, I've heard middle easterners, both in person and in the news, saying things that very closely paraphrase "these rich white devils are the cause of your problems, and ours."

I have a lot less experience with them than Ani, but the couple of Middle Eastern people I have talked with about anything other than work and such were careful not to be referred as darker skinned at all. They didn't appear racist but made a point they don't consider themselves dark skinned. But who knows, since it's just a couple of people, maybe they didn't represent the larger feelings over there, and certainly they weren't opposed to the West; they were willingly here, after all.

And animus, your thinking is twisted. The person making that decision is Obama himself. I believe he knows himself there might be a few lunatics out there willing to take his life should he win the office. After that it's his own business and that of the Secret Service. Your thinking only gives power to the extremists and other fanatics who would rule by fear like in so many dictatorships and theocracies. In fact your thinking is extremely dangerous to democracy.

[Animeniax]

@Jaitne: no offense, you know I love you (platonic) and all, but you need to attend a few US government courses before speaking further about the topics covered here.

@Kraco: I work for my company's operations in the Middle East, and black employees were routinely racially profiled and pulled aside for special screening at the airport. It started because a few blacks were busted for drug possession (life sentence in most Middle Eastern countries), which was all the excuse they needed to treat all American blacks as if they were perps. Keep in mind also that your average African-African claims no ties to African-Americans (as seen on MTV) and looks down on them. And of course you should already know from discussions on the forums how yellow people view black people.

I agree with animus. Some crackpot will take a shot at Obama and this will lead to riots and possibly a race war in the US. Obama has said he discussed the threat with his family before he decided to become a candidate for the presidency, but shrugged it off, saying the Secret Service would protect him. Good luck to any secret service agent trying to block a shot from a .50 cal sniper rifle.

[Uchiha Barles]

I had a discussion with some guy at work concerning Obama getting killed by some crackpot, and after that discussion, I doubt it'll happen. He'll be secured up the wazoo with secret service like none before him. So some crackpot taking him out needs to actually be well trained, and well connected, i.e. not a crackpot. If Obama gets killed, it'll probably be because he's talking some idealistic stuff that the powers that be don't want people to hear, let alone contemplate and start pushing for.

[Ryllharu]

People in parties are the only ones that can run for president, I thought. Republicans and Democrats aren't the only ones with parties. There's the Green Party, the Libertarian Party, the Socialist Party, Communist Party, etc. There are so many parties in the US it's not even funny >.>
People in parties are the only ones who have the slightest chance of getting elected, and in fact, it only matters if they are the Democratic or Republican parties (which today means they are the same party, the only policies that differ are moral ones). Third party candidates don't matter one whit anymore.

You want a country that has a lot of parties? Look to Europe. Italy, various countries in Scandinavia, Spain, etc. America has only two parties that matter, and in reality, they are the same party. Insiders (Democrat, Republican, old-hat Independents) or Outsiders.

It is in the American Constitution that anyone born in the country and over the age of 35 can be elected President. But the truth of the matter is something far from that. You need: a) lots of money, b) lots of friends with lots of money, c) connections to the same corrupt circle.

As Animeniax said, you might need to brush up on a few American civics courses, and then take a HUGE dose of cynicism to get the real picture.

[Jaitne]

I'm in American Government right now. I'm just not being cynical about everything, apparently.

Another party is can win, just because Republicans and Democrats are the top ones doesn't mean that another party can't win again. If they get a large enough following, then they probably could.

And third party candidates do matter, in a way. That's why Bill Clinton won against George Bush Senior, because a whole lot of Republicans decided to vote for a third party candidate.

[Animeniax]

Maybe pay better attention in class then :D

Truth is, the popular vote doesn't matter much at all, so it doesn't matter what any of us think. The founders didn't trust in the judgment of the unlearned masses, so they established the electoral system, which are primarily representatives from the same political circles as the candidates. They're supposed to represent the will of their constituents by voting in accord with the popular vote for their area, but it's not mandatory and doesn't always happen.

Cynicism isn't required, but blind idealism and faith in the system doesn't give you a realistic picture of how our "democratic" government is run.

[Jaitne]

How I see it shouldn't matter to everyone, though. We're all entitled to our own opinons and I can see things and believe what I want about politics and how the government is run. Just because you think I have blind faith or idealism in how things are run, doesn't mean that I do have it. That's your opinion on me.

Regardless of what everyone else thinks, I do think third party candidates matter. If that makes me not realistic in everyone else's eyes, then oh well.

I am paying attention in class, thank you very much! :D Since my views on it are 'how they're supposed to be' (idealistic) and not 'how they really are' (realistic) everyone should have been able to infer that I knew something on the topic.

:P Of course, that's at least what I'm getting out of what's being said.

[Abdula]

Now I'm confused. What did you just say?:confused:

[Jaitne]

I'll believe what I want, and you guys can believe what you want.

I believe that third party candidates do matter, and you all don't.

I think that's what I meant >.> I'm too lazy to reread my post.

[The Heretic Azazel]

No one is ever going to matter if they have no chance to win an election. It's nice, the idea to actually have a variety of people to consider, but it's just a front to make us think we're not just choosing the one lesser of two evils. Don't let them fool you.

[Uchiha Barles]

They need to take the money out of politics. Third party candidates don't matter because they get marginalized by the other two parties, but truth be told, it's in large part the people's own fault for allowing themselves to be so damned susceptible to group think and the strategies to implement it. Bob Barr requested to be a part the "debate" this week. Not that I've seen it (I don't need to) but from what I heard, he didn't get a chance. Why not? Why marginalize people like Ralph Nader?

From what I understand, it's done basically by having the two largest parties in the country have access to the lion share of the monies available for campaigning. The other parties don't matter in this country because they don't get heard. It takes money to get heard. Also, in the few cases they do get heard, what they said isn't remembered because it takes money to be remembered. You have to repeatedly slam your message into the brain of the voting masses. If you don't have the cash to be heard, and heard again, and heard throughout the campaign, you don't win. You might not even be known.

Not to mention, if your ideas about how this country should be run is significantly different from what people are used to hearing, you're labeled a nut job. Critical thinking takes a back seat to familiarity when it comes to unfamiliar messages. Yet another unfortunate truth. So pounding your message repeatedly in peoples faces serves not only to get them to remember what you said, but also to get them used to it, and thus, comfortable with it. This is how 3rd party candidates don't actually matter.

edit: Not saying you shouldn't vote for them though. Don't listen to people who say you're wasting your vote by doing so. Your vote is your voice, don't let them tell you what to say.*queue afterschool special music.

[Carnage]

McCain should be disqualified from the race just for selecting Palin. This is disgusting.

[Jaitne]

Conservatives love her. She's pro life at conception and pro capital punishment, what more could they want?

[Abdula]

Perhaps someone who isn't a complete moron but I guess thats asking to much, you know being conservative and all.

[The Heretic Azazel]

Not to mention, if your ideas about how this country should be run is significantly different from what people are used to hearing, you're labeled a nut job.

Or a left-wing leerjet liberal lunatic lolol

[Ryllharu]

They need to take the money out of politics. Third party candidates don't matter because they get marginalized by the other two parties, but truth be told, it's in large part the people's own fault for allowing themselves to be so damned susceptible to group think and the strategies to implement it.
Part of it is the money, but another part of it is the absurd length of time our elections take. So yes, money is involved, but the way the two main parties drag out the elections as long as possible feeds that. Third parties can't compete when an 18 month election across 50 states at least two times each occurs.

Ask someone in a foreign country how long their elections are. Of all places, Iran's General Election has over 6000 applicants usually, and it runs at most 2 months for the entire process. Admittedly, the constituents that American candidates are across a much larger area than nearly every other country in the world. So a longer election cycle can be expected. But for it to be a year and a half (and that year and a half you know none of the candidates are doing their damn job in Washington) is absurd. No normal person not backed by lobbyists or the two huge organizations that are the DNC and RNC has even a chance of getting to those states and making a difference.

But moreover, what do the candidates do during those 18 months? Do they talk about all the issues that our nation faces, proving which of them has better ideas about how to fix the country, what their stances are on various issues and how they will interact with the rest of the world as the face of the nation? A little. But what they really do is spend half the time insulting and character assassinating their peers in their own party, belittling each other, pointing out all of their faults, and then once that is all over, they start in on the other party. Most of the time they don't even do it directly, that's local politics stuff. Nope, they have their campaigns do it for them in order to keep their own hands clean.

Where does this leave the people? We're left after 18 months of wasted money picking between which of the candidates is less bad. Which one the opponent found less to smear him with. It's all negative campaigning for far too long. The "issues" are only discussed in the final two months. That is the only part that should matter.

What our elections become is not who is better at discussing the issues, who is better to lead the country. It's picking from whoever is not directly on the bottom.



...my favorite part though, is all the promises they make as a Presidential Candidate, in full knowledge that the LEGISLATURE is the only one who has power to make those changes. That stagnat, inner society circle-jerk is where the real problems with this country all stem from. Especially considering they just made a deal for the fucking Wall Street Bailout. Way to betray the people you represent for the top dollar. Congress needs term limits now.

/rant

[darkmetal505]

Look at it this way, anyone who is ready to become VP should be ready to President should anything happen to the Head of State during office. Being chosen as VP is as big of a job as being chosen President. Can you think about it? Sarah Palin as the President of the United States? Ridiculous. John McCain is not exactly the youngest guy either. This shows the only reason he chose her to run on the party's card was to turn votes.

McCain's ads are pathetically stupid also. Problem is that half of America is stupid.

[python862]

McCain's ads are pathetically stupid also. Problem is that half of America is stupid.
Quoted for truth.

[Death BOO Z]

McCain's ads are pathetically stupid also. Problem is that half of America is stupid.




A supporter once called out, "Governor Stevenson, all thinking people are for you!" And Adlai Stevenson answered, "That's not enough. I need a majority."

I think this quote says it all.

[Uchiha Barles]

...my favorite part though, is all the promises they make as a Presidential Candidate, in full knowledge that the LEGISLATURE is the only one who has power to make those changes. That stagnat, inner society circle-jerk is where the real problems with this country all stem from. Especially considering they just made a deal for the fucking Wall Street Bailout. Way to betray the people you represent for the top dollar. Congress needs term limits now.

/rant

I haven't confirmed this myself by checking sources out, but someone once told me that the founding fathers recommended that every 20 years, we actually go on a bloody murder spree and take out the people in the government. And replace them. This keeps things fresh, and it keeps the politicians in the right mindset. Go in, do your job, come out. Nobody would go in there thinking it was to be a lifelong career that they could use to get rich. I suppose term limits are a nice alternative.

[Animeniax]

I haven't confirmed this myself by checking sources out, but someone once told me that the founding fathers recommended that every 20 years, we actually go on a bloody murder spree and take out the people in the government. And replace them. This keeps things fresh, and it keeps the politicians in the right mindset. Go in, do your job, come out. Nobody would go in there thinking it was to be a lifelong career that they could use to get rich. I suppose term limits are a nice alternative.
Great idea. The founding fathers had it right, but they led during turbulent times where such radical and rebellious thinking were the norm. 230+ years later, our government has become a twisted version of what the founding fathers envisioned and needs new blood and new ideas and controls. Too bad that won't happen, but it's nice to dream.

I'm getting more and more concerned about a possible Palin presidency. If she does as poorly as I expect on the VP debate, I'm voting Obama/Biden.

[Abdula]

Nervous? The idea of Palin as president is down right scary. Not to mention how pissed off Hilary Clinton is going to be if that happens, lulz.

[Animeniax]

SNL spoof of Palin's interview with Katie Couric. You can hardly tell the difference from the actual interview.

http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/couric-palin-open/704042/

[animus]

I especially liked the "lick index finger, than randomly wiggle it in the air". It's so fucking random.even in the real interview.

[Abdula]

Thanks for the clip Ani, haven't watched SNL in years and that clip was hilarious.

[The Heretic Azazel]

Tina Fey is just excellent as Palin. I saw this clip as a rerun before I saw the Couric/Palin interview and thought it was legit for a moment.

[animus]

Currently watching the president debate which I missed on youtube. And I find my first judgement correct. McCain honestly does not know what he's doing. He's admittedly against taxing the rich adamantly. 35% on businesses in America that make millions, and he compares it to Ireland's 11%. What the fuck kinda businesses are in Ireland that can make millions honestly, and why would we care?

A pretty hostile debate. A lot of frustration and anger. The debate 4 years ago between Kerry and Bush wasn't at this level. McCain is atleast marginally more knowledgeable than Bush is, that much is clear.

[animus]

Watched the VP debate, and though I'm surprised Palin didn't do as bad as I thought she would. I think it's fairly obvious Biden won the debate. He had extensive knowledge of the issues and a good idea of what he was doing. Though Palin was the more likeable one, holy shit she needs to stop fucking using Maverick and talking about how she helped the energy problem in Alaska.

[Abdula]

Palin didn't do as bad as I thought she would
People have been saying that and I think it says a lot about her when the first thing people say about the debate is that she didn't do as bad as they expected her to.

[Jaitne]

I think she shouldn't compare what she did in Alaska to the rest of America. The rest of America isn't close to and is nothing like Alaska.

[animus]

They still need to work on their pronunciation of nuclear. That shit annoyed me so much during the debate (and in general), sound the word out, fuck.

[Assertn]

I think it's fairly obvious Biden won the debate.
That's interesting because most results from undecided viewers strongly suggested that Palin won the debate.

[animus]

And there's a reason why that those viewers are still undecided at this stage.

[Jaitne]

Palin says debate went well as polls favor Biden (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081003/ap_on_el_pr/vice_presidential_debate)

Other debate thingy (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/02/biden-dominates-debate-ac_n_131455.html)

[Ryllharu]

[Full disclosure. I have every intention of voting for Obama.]

Jaitne, the second link is from Huff Post. They are one of the most biased sites on the internet. They are so disgustingly pro-Obama that nothing they ever post can be trusted. During the primaries, nearly every article they had was anti-Hillary, and now that she's been out of the running, they turned their guns first on McCain, and now on Palin. Huffington Post is the internet version of Fox News for Obama. "Journalism" is a term I can only vaguely use for them, it's almost entirely sensationalist propoganda.

As for the debate:
I think it ultimately ends up as a draw.

Some 3000 journalists and "journalists" applied for Press Passes to the debate, the most there have ever been. What they were expecting to see was two things.
1) Palin falling flat on her face like she did during the few interviews she did.
2) Biden making an ass of himself like he has historically in the past (either long-winded, wrong, or otherwise outspoken).

Neither happened. The expectations for Palin were so low that even being articulate and not excessively roundabout (like she was in Couric's interview) would be enough for the debate to be a success. Biden was able to not say anything too far out of turn, and both of them had mostly minor inaccuracies in a few of their claims.

Palin has always succeeded at debates. She's deceptively evil in how she wins them. She doesn't sound like a politician, she doesn't always answer the question, but she's unbelievably good at connecting with the average uninformed voter. An interview with the candidates who ran against her in Alaska on NPR's Morning Edition said it right out, and even the Independant candidate wrote a letter recently (the site escapes me) covering mostly the same effect. Palin is the undisputed master of the non-answer.

To that effect, she was kicking Biden's ass in the beginning of the debate. He would frequently answer his questions by attacking McCain, while Palin would do the usual. She connected with the average voter with her usual message, explaining how she's no different from them. Instead of attacking Obama's record as Biden had expected her to, she would say what McCain was going to do. They used Obama's strategy of not using negative campaigning against Biden. She was easily able to cast Biden as the typical "Washington insider" by not playing the attack dog game that the VP debates usually are supposed to be.

Luckily, Biden realized what she was doing and after he had warmed up, the debate shifted from that strategy of attacking, and went on to a real debate format. Eventually, they would slip in a little attack here and there, but it was mostly explaining. This is where Biden gained the advantage. Palin's "home grown charm" only works so far, and on at least a few questions, she would avoid the issue entirely...but on at least one, so did Biden. He asked the moderator if he could go on a complete tangent.

That is why I think the debate was ultimately a draw. For each point that one party won, the other took something else.

Palin only needed to not fail in order to avoid another disaster in their campaign. While she didn't always answer the question, she sounded articulate, but still rough enough to make it appear that Biden was the insider, and still part of the Old Guard (which he is). That will work against Obama's message of change. However, Biden clearly kicked the Republican ticket's ass on the economy...with the exceptions of Palin's charge that earmarks and pork will end.

That works especially well for them considering every American now knows about the bailout and the 150 Billion Dollars of pork slapped into it.

[Assertn]

And there's a reason why that those viewers are still undecided at this stage.
That reason being that they don't have a skewed preference one way or the other?
I'm really not sure where you're getting at with this.

[animus]

The reason being that they don't have already a good opinion formed over the past year and a half through personal research, or just knowledge of recent political happenings in general. There's ample coverage to form an opinion.

Chances are if you're undecided at this point it's either A) You're uninformed, B) Not planning to vote, or C) Don't favor either candidate (Which can fall directly under B)

Honestly, if those undecided viewers aren't some brainwashed hick drone of exterme conservative America already, and they believe Palin won the debate which is about real issues and VP viability they most definitely fall under A, or believe the debate should use congeniality as a way to measure a win or a loss. Personally, I find it a terrible way to gauge winning a debate.

[The Heretic Azazel]

Palin just has to go. I am so sick of watching her call herself a "soccer mom" and saying something to the "Joe 6-packs" out there. Uh huh yea you betcha! wink wink. America should feel insulted by her sickly sweet condescension.

Die bitch.

[Assertn]

Chances are if you're undecided at this point it's either A) You're uninformed, B) Not planning to vote, or C) Don't favor either candidate (Which can fall directly under B)
C can also mean both candidates tell you things that you like and dislike equally....which doesn't necessarily mean you're not planning to vote.


Honestly, if those undecided viewers aren't some brainwashed hick drone of exterme conservative America already, and they believe Palin won the debate which is about real issues and VP viability they most definitely fall under A, or believe the debate should use congeniality as a way to measure a win or a loss. Personally, I find it a terrible way to gauge winning a debate.
The same setup using undecided voters suggested Obama won in the last presidental debate, so maybe you're right and it is a terrible way to gauge winning a debate.

[Jaitne]

I didn't read the second one I posted, to be honest. Plus, I could careless how biased or unbiased they are, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. That also doesn't mean that when they did take the polls, that they weren't favouring Biden, which is kind of what they said. The second one that you said was very pro-Obama has also said that the VP debate helped to push one state into basically loving the Republican ticket even more.

I don't know why Palin says she's like an average American. Living in Alaska doesn't make you an average American; it doesn't even make you close to everyone else in the continental US. Alaska is the only state that the people get paid (because of their negative income tax) just for living there. Alaska is the only state that has only certain times when you have to work because of where it is. Alaska is also the only state that has like.. 1 hour of light during a period of time, and 1 hour of night.

Plus, the soccer mom pitt bull thing was an insult to females, in my opinion. But I guess all those women who clapped liked being called a bitch by a woman.

Also, voting for someone is better than not voting at all, at least you gave your opinion in. Not everyone is in a party where they get a whole lot of exposure.

[animus]

Gogo, second presidential debate.

Honestly, do McCain and Palin know much facts behind the Enron scandals or Fanny May and Freddy Mak. Or have anything other than saying for the millionth time that American workers are the hardest workers, most innovative, etc. I can't help but laugh at that. I guess that's why we have all these mexicans in restaurants doing jobs they don't wanna do.

Their whole debate agenda is to compliment Americans as much as possible. And McCain's proposal about the US Treasury buying up bad housing loans, has got to be the worst idea ever.

And as usual Tom Brokaw sounds like a deep-voiced motor boat.

[itadakimasu]

I went and voted yesterday... was very fast and easy, now lets hope my electronic ballot isn't tampered with!

To me Obama just seems like the more genuine candidate. I really hate partisan politics...
I don't think John McCain had even heard of Sarah Palin before the campaign. and I really think that a president should have some sort of ties to the vice president... even... picking them themselves! not just have some random female governor be chosen because she's a republican woman.

I think Barack has the general election in the bag. Lets see how the electoral college decides to vote though.

[Animeniax]

My views on the election:

If Obama wins, racial tensions in the US will become a major issue. I heard on the news today some white guys got arrested for planning to kill black people and Obama. I see something terrible happening to Obama if he is elected president, and the subsequent riots and racial anger will be equally terrible.

I personally feel that blacks will unnecessarily see his victory as a cultural statement that they deserve something more: more affirmative action, maybe slavery reparations, more representation in public offices, more executive jobs in corporations, etc., whether they earn it and deserve it or not. The funny thing is, Obama himself is a rich elitist who has more in common with wealthy white people than he does with 95% of black people.

The upside of his presidency is that Obama can say things that a white politician can't without being branded a racist. He can say "black folks need to take care of their own business and stop relying on government handouts" and guys like Al Sharpton can't dismiss him as a bigot and call for his impeachment. These same kinds of statements were what got Jesse Jackson so upset with Obama when Jackson made the infamous "I want to cut his nuts off" comment.

[Abdula]

I personally feel that blacks will unnecessarily see his victory as a cultural statement that they deserve something more: more affirmative action, maybe slavery reparations, more representation in public offices, more executive jobs in corporations, etc., whether they earn it and deserve it or not. The funny thing is, Obama himself is a rich elitist who has more in common with wealthy white people than he does with 95% of black people.

Wait, what?

[itadakimasu]

my wife and I have talked about that before... way too many crazy white people who could want to take out barack if he's elected. Riots would be terrible if this happened, I agree. Sort-of like the first season of 24, except I dont' think the people wanting to harm him have any direct ties to him... they are just racists.

On reparations though... I think any serious talk of reparations should be laughed at. I'm not arguing that slavery was wrong and that alot of blacks were treated in a sub-human way... but it's 2008. We've moved past that and if people want reparations they should ask all the famous afro-american people, athletes to share the wealth... and if any athletes of true african lineage are asking for repairations, they obviously don't realize how they got where they are. There is no NFL in africa... no NBA in africa. If Michael Jordan was born in Africa... maybe he would grow up to school his skinny peers on the court, but he would not be a legend around the world.

[Animeniax]

Wait, what?Which part are you having difficulty with?


On reparations though... I think any serious talk of reparations should be laughed at. I'm not arguing that slavery was wrong and that alot of blacks were treated in a sub-human way... but it's 2008. We've moved past thatI think you had to be there or grown up with that in your family history to be able to say whether or not we're past that. I think most people would take free money if it's offered. I don't think we've heard the last of demands for slavery reparations. If Obama is elected, it will become an issue again. Not that he shouldn't be elected for that reason, just that one will lead to the other.

[Abdula]

You know what I'm not even going to bother, its a waste of time.

[Animeniax]

Try to look at the statement objectively instead of immediately getting defensive about it. I hear all kinds of cracks about the unhealthiness of Chinese food imports and you don't see me crying about it.

[Abdula]

Shut up Animeniax:rolleyes: . You don't even know what it is I have a problem with but you're talking about looking at things objectively, and I'm not one to defend black people. Anyway you already seem to have your mind made up as to what my POV is, which is why I said it would just be a waste of time.

[itadakimasu]

Shut up Animeniax:rolleyes: . You don't even know what it is I have a problem with but you're talking about looking at things objectively, and I'm not one to defend black people. Anyway you already seem to have your mind made up as to what my POV is, which is why I said it would just be a waste of time.

I thought abdula was black?

anyhow... lets start calculating up all the welfare and food stamps that have been paid out to black people and then add up the money black athletes and rappers and actors make... subtract from the total pupulation of blacks at end of slavery multiplied by whatever reparations they were supposed to get and value of however many acres... etc..

black people would then end up owing some back taxes on over-paid repairations.

[Animeniax]

He is, which explains why he's upset by my comments.

White folks get just as much in welfare and food stamps as the blacks, and make up a higher percentage of those on welfare because of their sheer numbers. Only yellow Asians as a group are too proud to accept handouts.

[Abdula]

I thought abdula was black?
I am black and I think the idea of reparations is ridiculous, and any black person who suddenly feels entitled to anything, if Obama is elected, should be beaten.

-Missed Ani's post. Animeniax you're an idiot.

[Animeniax]

Your ad hominem attacks are nothing more than spam and should be moderated by a moderator.

You may think the idea of reparations are ridiculous, but then you would be among the minority of minorities.

[Sapphire]

You guyz make me laugh.

Anyway, as I am slightly liberal, I will be voting for Obama (not that it makes a difference who I vote for in NY or TX). I also like the fact that he thinks scientific research is mega important and his goal to expand various technologies etc. (I won't get into everyyything)

[Abdula]

Ad hominem, really? I guess you would know better than anyone else right.

.I personally feel that blacks will unnecessarily see his victory as a cultural statement that they deserve something more: more affirmative action, maybe slavery reparations, more representation in public offices, more executive jobs in corporations, etc., whether they earn it and deserve it or not. The funny thing is, Obama himself is a rich elitist who has more in common with wealthy white people than he does with 95% of black people.

Anyway this statement just completely took me by surprise and I wanted to know what you were basing this on. I'll agree that the only thing Obama has in common with the majority of black people is his skin color, but that is what makes him black right. It just seemed to me like you were making baseless assumptions about how the black community feels about Obama, and black people in general. Oh and I don't think Obama running for President is any kind of cultural statement.

Anyway I'm not going to waste time arguing with you about your political views or black people.

[animus]

I'd go and vote for obama, but it doesn't really matter since I live in NY, am too lazy, and popular votes not gonna mean shit anyways.

[The Heretic Azazel]

Your ad hominem attacks are nothing more than spam and should be moderated by a moderator.

Much like your blatant racism.

[Animeniax]

I was wondering when someone was going to throw that out there. Congrats on being the first. I prefer to think of it as looking at things from a cultural perspective versus one of race.

I wonder how many blacks you or even Abdula talk to or deal with on a daily basis. I get the feeling Abdula normally only interacts with blacks in his immediate family. I get the feeling your interaction with black people is limited to those who might be customers at work or that you see on TV.

I don't mean to generalize too much, but I think my views are a lot better researched than either of yours.

[Sapphire]

Chris Rock said the exact same thing about black people after the election. Either way, generalizing about entire "races" is completely retarded and should only be used for humor anyway.

[Abdula]

Wow Ani way to go. I'm glad that your views are so well researched and I'm glad you know more about black people than an actual black person. I don't even know what to say to that.

You're so pathetic its laughable and as far as generalizing goes. I think you missed this post.

My views on the election:

If Obama wins, racial tensions in the US will become a major issue. I heard on the news today some white guys got arrested for planning to kill black people and Obama. I see something terrible happening to Obama if he is elected president, and the subsequent riots and racial anger will be equally terrible.

I personally feel that blacks will unnecessarily see his victory as a cultural statement that they deserve something more: more affirmative action, maybe slavery reparations, more representation in public offices, more executive jobs in corporations, etc., whether they earn it and deserve it or not. The funny thing is, Obama himself is a rich elitist who has more in common with wealthy white people than he does with 95% of black people.

The upside of his presidency is that Obama can say things that a white politician can't without being branded a racist. He can say "black folks need to take care of their own business and stop relying on government handouts" and guys like Al Sharpton can't dismiss him as a bigot and call for his impeachment. These same kinds of statements were what got Jesse Jackson so upset with Obama when Jackson made the infamous "I want to cut his nuts off" comment.

[Animeniax]

Wow Ani way to go. I'm glad that your views are so well researched and I'm glad you know more about black people than an actual black person. I don't even know what to say to that.On the one hand you state Obama is black but has little in common with most blacks, then on the other you claim that it's not possible a non-black person knows more about the black mindset than an actual black person would.


Chris Rock said the exact same thing about black people after the election. Either way, generalizing about entire "races" is completely retarded and should only be used for humor anyway.All of Chris Rock's humor is rooted in truth as he knows it and demonstrates his personal convictions. He chooses comedy as a medium for social commentary, but humor aside, his social and political views come through in his work.

The funny thing about humans is that we do everything possible to make it easy to categorize us, and we have an inherent need to group people and concepts together so we can understand and deal with it. Kind of like how The Heretic Azazel grouped me with the "racists" so he could get a general grasp of what I was saying and then deal with it by dismissing my ideas as racist rhetoric so he could ignore it and get back to his tv show.

[Sapphire]

"All of Chris Rock's humor is rooted in truth as he knows it and demonstrates his personal convictions. He chooses comedy as a medium for social commentary, but humor aside, his social and political views come through in his work."

Of course, as do many comedians. Hope you don't think he believes everything he says though.

Doesn't mean it's true though.

"The funny thing about humans is that we do everything possible to make it easy to categorize us, and we have an inherent need to group people and concepts together so we can understand and deal with it."

Sometimes categories are relevant and there is a need for them, especially in anthro. However usually when categorizing actions based on race....

[Animeniax]

Of course, as do many comedians. Hope you don't think he believes everything he says though.I can't say if he believes everything he says, but there's no reason to believe otherwise. Sure on some subjects he'll caricature points in order to get a laugh.

Doesn't mean it's true though.Doesn't matter if it's true or not, just means people can't dismiss my argument as racist, since here's a black guy who thinks the same as me.


Sometimes categories are relevant and there is a need for them, especially in anthro. However usually when categorizing actions based on race....Yes but we're talking about ideas and beliefs, not actions. And you'd be surprised how much race actually does tell you about a person. As they say, stereotypes are rooted in truth.

[Sapphire]

Doesn't matter if it's true or not, just means people can't dismiss my argument as racist, since here's a black guy who thinks the same as me.
So black people who say something similar to you aren't racist?

[Abdula]

just means people can't dismiss my argument as racist, since here's a black guy who thinks the same as me.
Actually we still can, it doesn't matter if a black person said it too, you can't because you're not black. Are you not familiar with the Don Imus scandal. Besides there are numerous black racists out there, i.e. black people who hate their own race.


Yes but we're talking about ideas and beliefs, not actions. And you'd be surprised how much race actually does tell you about a person. As they say, stereotypes are rooted in truth.
I wouldn't say rooted in truth. Sure no matter what the stereotype is you're bound to find people who fit the bill but generalizations are generalizations.You can't judge an entire race of people based on some stupid stereotype. Anyway I think thats enough we're way off topic as it is.

[Animeniax]

So black people who say something similar to you aren't racist?
That was the litmus test proposed by Abdula, who is also black.

[Sapphire]

You people and your stupid double standards. I'll come back when this conversation turns logical. :p

[Animeniax]

Actually we still can, it doesn't matter if a black person said it too, you can't because you're not black. Are you not familiar with the Don Imus scandal. Besides there are numerous black racists out there, i.e. black people who hate their own race.
I would say they hate aspects of their own culture, much like when my Mexican friend makes fun of other Mexicans who write their names in calligraphy on the rear window of their car. The Don Imus deal was completely different, he mocked the lingo and culture by parroting the words. 99% of the time you hear the phrase "nappy-headed hos", it's a black guy saying it. I don't doubt that Imus has racist beliefs, but in this case I think it was a witch-hunt.

I wouldn't say rooted in truth. Sure no matter what the stereotype is you're bound to find people who fit the bill but generalizations are generalizations.You can't judge an entire race of people based on some stupid stereotype. Anyway I think thats enough we're way off topic as it is.Back on topic, if I was voting, I'd vote for Obama.

[itadakimasu]

but you're not voting?

I just wanted to vote for president... i didn't relaly like that they have all sorts of other people to vote for on the ballot that i've never heard of. Or people running uncontested, there were 4 like that and i didn't vote for them because a vote requires 2 or more parties.

i voted straight libertarian for criminal court justices and then mixed and matched my other votes.

and this.. is our democratic process. Marvel at its wonder.

[Junior]

Actually we still can, it doesn't matter if a black person said it too, you can't because you're not black. Are you not familiar with the Don Imus scandal. Besides there are numerous black racists out there, i.e. black people who hate their own race.


OFFTOPIC but I seriously do not understand that. Hating your own people seems kinda...silly. My grandfather was like that, Indian but he hated his people. XD


Anyway, on topic, I used to think I'd vote for Obama, but I recently read a couple of things he said that I don't like very much, but in comparison, I guess he's the best choice...maybe. *shrugs* I ain't American. We got our own elections coming up next year and those are hassling enough. PLUS I CAN VOTE NEXT YEAR. HUZZAH.

[The Heretic Azazel]

My views on the election:

If Obama wins, racial tensions in the US will become a major issue. I heard on the news today some white guys got arrested for planning to kill black people and Obama. I see something terrible happening to Obama if he is elected president, and the subsequent riots and racial anger will be equally terrible.

I personally feel that blacks will unnecessarily see his victory as a cultural statement that they deserve something more: more affirmative action, maybe slavery reparations, more representation in public offices, more executive jobs in corporations, etc., whether they earn it and deserve it or not. The funny thing is, Obama himself is a rich elitist who has more in common with wealthy white people than he does with 95% of black people.

The upside of his presidency is that Obama can say things that a white politician can't without being branded a racist. He can say "black folks need to take care of their own business and stop relying on government handouts" and guys like Al Sharpton can't dismiss him as a bigot and call for his impeachment. These same kinds of statements were what got Jesse Jackson so upset with Obama when Jackson made the infamous "I want to cut his nuts off" comment.

Some blacks I have met do have a sense of entitlement. I ignore them the same I do with white people who want a handout. To say the blacks in general, however, demand slavery reparations, or that Obama is going to do something to extend affirmative action just because he's black is just asinine.

[Ryllharu]

I listened to a discussion on a local NPR show (Faith Middleton's Politics, Burgers and Beer) where an inner city teacher was ecstatic about what's going on. Rather than asking for more handouts or reparations, if Obama becomes the first black president, he saw how we may see a very dramatic shift. You'd go from black school kids who think the best they can ever do is maybe own their own house, to seeing history made. He was seeing the kids talking about it already, and if Obama wins, then maybe they too will have greater aspirations for their own futures.

While I think that may be just a hair overly optimistic, it may actually be a huge influence on the black community in America. Will it solve the racism? No. There will be an increase in racial tensions if Obama wins, I know the people of this country too well to think otherwise. Hopefully, there will not arise too many issues, and people may finally gain a little more tolerance in certain regions. I could see a similar effect to what Martin Luther King accomplished if Obama wins. The difference would rather than it be solely a message of hope, it would be a solid message of legitimacy of that past movement. African Americans would only be second class citizens if they didn't put the effort in, just like everyone else. Everyone would be equal, so long as they tried in the first place.

There's also a big difference with Obama compared to other African American politicians. The reason I mentioned MLK above is because of what happened with his movement after he was assassinated. Instead of a message of hope as he preached and practiced, opportunistic individuals like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson no longer spoke a message that was completely about unity and equality, but of paying back. There was a fundamental difference in the way that worked, and it led to things like reparations (which are only legitimate if the one harmed is still alive, as with the Japanese-Americans imprisoned in WWII).

Whether he's lying about it or not (he is a politician), Obama is speaking that same message of unity. He doesn't give a shit about "getting what is owed," he (or McCain, God save us) have much more important things to worry about the moment they take the job.

[Animeniax]

@Itadakimasu: I'm overseas and too lazy to do the absentee ballot business. Besides, I feel the popular vote won't matter because the electoral vote is the true power.


Some blacks I have met do have a sense of entitlement. I ignore them the same I do with white people who want a handout. To say the blacks in general, however, demand slavery reparations, or that Obama is going to do something to extend affirmative action just because he's black is just asinine.
I never claimed Obama would extend affirmative action. He's a wealthy elite, why would he support it except to cater to a section of his constituents? Unfortunately groups like the NAACP that do support affirmative action will try to pressure Obama to support it as well. Whether or not Obama concedes is a different concern. But the issues of reparations and affirmative action will be big stories in the news again.

[itadakimasu]

Thought this was funny. This is some ladies car that lives in my apartments....
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e383/bbaucom/obama.jpg


Basically, its people like this that made my vote for obama slightly hard since I think alot of people share her mentality, and are obviously only voting for barack because he's half black.

[Abdula]

Why must everything be about race for you?

[XanBcoo]

I think alot of people share her mentality, and are obviously only voting for barack because he's half black.
That's no less superficial than basing your vote on some other emotional response to the candidate:

To me Obama just seems like the more genuine candidate.

I haven't voted yet because I'm still undecided. I need a pros/cons list for myself or something. Not that it matters who I vote for down here in Texas.

[Animeniax]

I just saw the end of a report about black students at Bed-Stuy high school in Brooklyn and their expectations for the future if Obama wins the presidency. They were giddy with nervous excitement that their school would become a proper center of education and advancement for their people when Obama takes office.

@Itadakimasu: that bumper sticker reminds me of Puff Daddy's "Vote or Die" campaign for the 2004 election. It really made me want to participate in the election process.

@XanBcoo: Voting based on skin color is racist. Voting based on some other emotional response may be superficial, but at least it's not racist.

[rockmanj]

Well, I don't really support either of the 2 major parties, and I'm not a big fan of either candidate, but I see that the hope that could be inspired by Obama being elected; I'm not sure about that reparations stuff Ani's talking about; like, there's always people going on about that, but I don't think a significant amount of black Americans support that kind of thing. And I kind of have mixed feelings about affirmative action.

[Animeniax]

Being inspired and hopeful of change with Obama's presidency is a good thing, but not if people expect things to change on their own and to be given handouts in the name of change.

[rockmanj]

Well, I agree with that. No one should expect that...unless, well...I wont get into that. But, yea, you shouldn't just expect to be bailed out if you can help yourself.

[Abdula]

Voting based on skin color is racist. Voting based on some other emotional response may be superficial, but at least it's not racist.
Yes but what does it matter why other people are voting for a candidate. Just last night i was talking to this guy if you can call it that and he was saying he was gonna vote for McCain why, because "I'll be damned if I ever let a nigger become president!"

People vote for stupid reasons but the man says, they have a right to vote so the reason really is not something I get worked up over. People voting for Obama because he is black is no different from the people who are gonna vote for McCain just because he is white or the people who were gonna vote for Hilary just because she is a woman. As far as I'm concerned, they're all idiots.

[animus]

I'm all for having a brotha in office.

[Animeniax]

And that's why you fail animus. Obama is an educated wealthy elite. His credentials for being a great president should transcend his skin color and racial ties, but neither side is willing to accept that and they will vote for him based solely on skin color and race and all the baggage that comes with that.

[Abdula]

Exactly, people were saying that having an old man like McCain running, a black man, Obama, and a woman, Hilary Clinton, was a sign of how American has changed but America hasn't changed. This country doesn't change, you have to force change down America's throat and even then they'll still cough it back up. America doesn't change until its left with absolutely no other choice but to change.

[Animeniax]

OFFTOPIC but I seriously do not understand that. Hating your own people seems kinda...silly. My grandfather was like that, Indian but he hated his people. XD All peoples of the world do silly stuff or have weird cultural behaviors and beliefs that may seem strange to others or even to their own people. I have little pride and mostly contempt for my native people, whom I consider backwards and primitive. That's why I support Japanese rule of Southeast Asia (and potentially the world) even though I am not Japanese (by birth) and even though the Japanese have their share of ridiculous beliefs and practices. They still trump all the other weird cultures of the world.

@Abdula: good point. It was funny to watch as the proto-typical middle-aged rich white guys dropped out of the party primaries to leave only Obama, Hillary, and McCain in the running.

[rockmanj]

Backwards and primitive? Hmmm...I'd like to get into that, but eh, maybe a different thread. Anyway, back on topic (kinda). Has anyone seen any of these attempts to dissuade voters? For example, there are fliers being circulated in certain communites (read: minority) telling people that if they have unpaid traffic tickets, or warrants, that they can't vote, or in other cases recorded calls, or encouragement to wear Obama clothing to polls?


I mean, there ARE other important things to vote for that your vote actually counts for, such as regional statutes, issues, etc.

[Animeniax]

Not surprising. Social engineering works and produces results.

I heard in Albany or some part of New York that absentee ballots had Obama's name spelled "Osama". Typo or tampering?

[Abdula]

Yeah, there are people here handing out fliers and putting up posters saying election day is Wednesday the 5th. Some really ridiculous stuff. And yeah that Osama thing was supposedly a typo that no one noticed until it was too late.


All peoples of the world do silly stuff or have weird cultural behaviors and beliefs that may seem strange to others or even to their own people. I have little pride and mostly contempt for my native people, whom I consider backwards and primitive. That's why I support Japanese rule of Southeast Asia (and potentially the world) even though I am not Japanese (by birth) and even though the Japanese have their share of ridiculous beliefs and practices. They still trump all the other weird cultures of the world.

I don't think you understand what I meant by black people hating their own race. Its not something understandable, like hating particular aspects of your own culture. Think that episode of the Chappelle show where he was a blind white supremacists and no one told him he was black, only these people know they are black and they hate themselves for it. Some even go as far as bleaching their own skin.

Or Ruckus from Boondocks.

[Assertn]

I hear lots of terrible things about Obama. He's really just starved for attention. I think he'd have far more selfish intentions for running than McCain does.

In other news....Obama might lose his eligibility regardless of the election outcome:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyspCRmJv7w

[animus]

Man that was 11 minutes of a fat guy talking about how Barack Obama is destroying the Constitution because he may not be an American natural born citizen. It might be a big deal to some, but I'm 90% sure this guy just doesn't want a black man in office. I'm also guessing he spent his career as a prosecutor where he would prosecute the stereotypical black criminal.

He wrote off the fact that McCain was not a natural born citizen either, but made it sound like it wasn't some propaganda starved war machine because he presented it proudly. McCain just got off the hook because both his parents were natural born.

[Uchiha Barles]

Apparently there are legal technicalities that are going to ensure that this case doesn't even get heard, let alone go to trial. Sounds like he's here to stay. Plus, the whole thing reeks of bs.

edit: Actually, it's not just some loophole that allows Obama to avoid this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural-born_citizen

There are three cases, according to the last section of the article I linked, that set precedence, rendering people without something called "standing" ineligible to challenge the eligibility of a presidential candidate. If I correctly understood what I read, someone with "standing" can basically show three things. 1) They're somehow harmed, 2) there's a connection between the harm and the thing they're challenging in court, and 3) that a judegement in favor of the person making the challenge, is likely to fix things.

Basically, it's how the courts say "uh...does this even matter?" Apparently the answer to that question with regards to Obama's citizenship is "no, it does not". The guy in that video has no standing.

[Assertn]

Uh....president of the United States is about as big as it gets in this country.

Lying about your citizenship is one thing, but lying about your citizenship to rule a country is another. You can't really consider yourself bipartisan and shrug that off.

[Animeniax]

Uh....president of the United States is about as big as it gets in this country.I think guys like Bill Gates and Warren Buffett could give the president a run for the money.

[rockmanj]

I think guys like Bill Gates and Warren Buffett could give the president a run for the money.


And many more big business men and lobbyists, for that matter.

[Animeniax]

Like Jared from Subway, he's pretty big, before and after.

[Uchiha Barles]

Uh....president of the United States is about as big as it gets in this country.

Lying about your citizenship is one thing, but lying about your citizenship to rule a country is another. You can't really consider yourself bipartisan and shrug that off.

I'm not so much shrugging off the ethics of this as I am shrugging off any chance in hell that this has of becoming even a moderate issue in the media for people to get angry about, let alone there actually being legal consequences for Obama. The guy bringing up charges simply has no chance to make those charges stick. Also, the term "natural born citizen" is defined loosely enough, from what I read, so that even if someone who did have the right to challenge Obama's candidacy did so, Obama would stand a fighting chance at demonstrating that he's eligible to run for president. I mean, not that I've been following political news that closely for some time now, but I haven't heard any prominent politician bring this up. I just can't bring myself to feel too much anger about something that will produce neither results nor harm.

[The Heretic Azazel]

The case of Obama's non-citizenship is so ridiculous that the media watchdogs won't even report on it. And they make a story out of everything. He was born in Hawaii, whoever says otherwise is misinformed.

[Assertn]

The case of Obama's non-citizenship is so ridiculous that the media watchdogs won't even report on it. And they make a story out of everything. He was born in Hawaii, whoever says otherwise is misinformed.
The media doesn't report most things that make Obama look bad.

The media also didn't mention Obama's half-brother, who lives in a 3rd world country on $1/mo while he himself somehow accrued multiple tens of millions from a $200k government job.

[Uchiha Barles]

The media doesn't report most things that make Obama look bad.

The media also didn't mention Obama's half-brother, who lives in a 3rd world country on $1/mo while he himself somehow accrued multiple tens of millions from a $200k government job.

Obama is the media's golden boy. It's so bad that it's almost as if the news networks are actually cheering for him. As far as his half brother's concerned though, same dad, different mom, and his mom is the one who raised him (Barrack). And the millions of dollars he's accrued given the position he has...well, lets just say "he did it too quickly." Unless you think you're going to be a champion of justice going into politics, you'd be a fool to not use your influence to get rich.

[Abdula]

I don't see what the big deal is. The media isn't there to play fair and give us an unbiased informative look at the candidates. Like he said Obama is their golden boy, their chosen candidate, the one they decided should be President. It happens every single election. This is America after all.

The voters are the ones who are supposed to remember that no matter how good they make him look he is still a politician and its their obligation to educate themselves about him and what he stands for, before they vote for him.

[The Heretic Azazel]

The media doesn't report most things that make Obama look bad.

The media also didn't mention Obama's half-brother, who lives in a 3rd world country on $1/mo while he himself somehow accrued multiple tens of millions from a $200k government job.

I watch a lot of Fox News, so I'm exposed to a lot of anti-Obama rhetoric. Some concerns I completely understand but the way they try to smear him over the smallest things makes them look desperate. Fox News would be the first (well, probably only) media outlet to question the rumor of Obama's citizenship, if it weren't a ridiculous idea to start with.

[animus]

They are desperate, Obama's dominating the polls, or so I hear.

[Assertn]

nah, mccain's up by a few points so far. Also, there's a good chance he'll win florida.

[Ryllharu]

The polls and the reporting of them are both done by mainstream media, who have a special interest in reporting that the race is close. If it looks like it will be a landslide, no one will watch their damn cable channels the day of the election, and certainly no one will watch before the election, so sure of a victory.

Since the 2000 election, the media realized they could make absurd amounts of money by intentionally keeping the numbers close, artificially if necessary.

example: NPR (funded 90% through donations, marginal "liberal" bias) has Obama winning by a fairly wide margin, nearly everyone else has the two candidates, "within points" of each other.

EDIT: I was also going to include PBS's poll, but they are using the one provided by NPR. Go figure.

[animus]

I would honestly be surprised if I heard McCain was factually ahead of Obama. It just doesn't seem plausible.

[itadakimasu]

I'd like to dedicate this post to how i think sarah palin is the worst possible candidate the republicans could have chosen to be john mccains running mate. I'm not sure if it was because she's an unknown, and nobody already hated her?

I don't hate her but her presence in the campaign only makes me think that she was chosen at random and I doubt had ever been face to face with john mccain before they picked her. Had i been actually ''undecided" She probably would have been the reason my vote did not goto mccain.

Lets see who the electoral college chooses to be our next president, and see if my vote for obama counted towards anything.

[Ryllharu]

I thought it was fairly obvious that Palin was chosen because she was, quite literally, a beauty queen filled to the brim with neo-conservative ideals. Moreover, she was chosen almost immediately after Obama did not go with Clinton. That sent her fuming female supporters into a huff, so the McCain camp figured they might be able to snag a few of those who swore on their mother's grave they would never vote for Obama. I imagine that some of the discussion really was along the lines of, "After all, a woman is a woman to these women, right?"


In any case, I have performed my civic duty and voted today. Polls were swamped at 6am (I wasn't going to vote then anyway but I wanted to check it out), so I went after work around 3:30pm. I was in and out in under ten minutes.

[The Heretic Azazel]

http://news.aol.com/political-machine/2008/11/04/breaking-va-judge-preserve-military-ballots/?icid=100214839x1212366688x1200751516

We might not know who the next President is until the 10th.

GOD I WISH IT WOULD FUCKING END.

[Abdula]

Okay, um Brooklyn just went crazy. I'm inside and I can barely hear myself think.

[Jman]

Okay, um Brooklyn just went crazy. I'm inside and I can barely hear myself think.
^lol. Watching NY1's coverage right now. They're at Fort Greene, the cops passed by flashing their lights and were smiling as they drove by.

[XanBcoo]

Got woken up by one of my housemates cheering. I ended up watching McCain's concession speech.

This is pretty exciting. I'm trying to watch both Fox and CNN to see how each side is reacting.

[darkmetal505]

Obama ftw

[Abdula]

I ended up watching McCain's concession speech.
His speech was really good. I kinda feel sorry for him


I'm trying to watch both Fox and CNN to see how each side is reacting.
The same.

^lol. Watching NY1's coverage right now. They're at Fort Greene, the cops passed by flashing their lights and were smiling as they drove by.
Yeah well watching on tv is one thing, I would much prefer that, seeing and more importantly hearing them outside is another.

Now they've gotten around to the inevitable sporadic gunshots. It is NYC afterall:rolleyes:

[Carnage]

It's time to watch Fox News cry.

[rockmanj]

Now they've gotten around to the inevitable sporadic gunshots. It is NYC afterall:rolleyes:

I forgot that doesn't only happen in Chicago...I'm sure that's going on right now. Hmm, too bad I couldn't be there to go to the big rally.

[XanBcoo]

Obama's speech was pretty inspiring. I was actually quite touched. The dude certainly has a way with words.

Then I switched over to Fox and had the commentator say something along the lines of "this man...will...ummm...unite a divided partisianship...and errr...find some way to fight the War in Iraq...some...other way...perhaps"

Tonight is such an awful night to have a test to study for.

[rockmanj]

Wow, he won by quite a margin;he's like +182 electoral votes so far. That's pretty impressive.

[Abdula]

Then I switched over to Fox and had the commentator say something along the lines of "this man...will...ummm...unite a divided partisianship...and errr...find some way to fight the War in Iraq...some...other way...perhaps"

Are you still watching that. He was just going on about Barack playing it safe in his campaign and planning out his speeches and talking about the tv time he had awhile ago and how scripted his campaign was and I'm like........What?

Then he goes on to talk about McCain, the maverick, who actually took risks, like putting Palin on the ticket. Don't they get that the election is over

Wow, he won by quite a margin;he's like +182 electoral votes so far. That's pretty impressive.
It was expected

[6Zabuza9]

lmao i love how both mccain and obama's wiki page is getting destroyed

[XanBcoo]

I'm still watching Fox and finding they're being pretty supportive.

CNN and Fox did a rundown of the Exit Polls. Surprise surprise, the older the voters were, the more they supported McCain. Also, apparently the only issue group McCain did better with was the group that listed "Terrorism" as their main issue. Funny.

[Abdula]

What was really funny was the tax issue, considering how the republicans were preaching about Obama raising taxes, the whole Joe the plumber thing and all. Yet it seems the majority of people actually favored Obama's tax plan.

[Sapphire]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgfBagNGh9k

It's outrageous outside of my dorm right now.

[Animeniax]

This is why I don't vote:

Popular vote:
Obama: 52%
McCain: 47%

Electoral vote:
Obama: 349
McCain: 159

[Kraco]

An electoral college system hasn't been used over here for as long as I've been able to vote, which is a good thing. I don't know how things looked back when it was used, but I guess more like that. Nowadays votes go straight to the candidate and so you know every vote counts.

[Sapphire]

This is why I don't vote:

Popular vote:
Obama: 52%
McCain: 47%

Electoral vote:
Obama: 349
McCain: 159Shame on you!

[Animeniax]

Shame on you!Why, are you on the electoral college where your vote actually counts? I'd take that job and sell my vote on eBay.

[animus]

This is why I don't vote:

Popular vote:
Obama: 52%
McCain: 47%

Electoral vote:
Obama: 349
McCain: 159

Regardless, the popular vote is in Obama's favor by 8 million people.

[Sapphire]

Why, are you on the electoral college where your vote actually counts? I'd take that job and sell my vote on eBay.
You don't seem to understand how American politics works do you? :p

[Animeniax]

You don't seem to understand how American politics works do you? :pI under$tand the American political $y$tem ju$t fine. I do plan to take a Government 101 class when I go back to school to brush up though.

[Sapphire]

Ohhh, so your comments were intentionally misguided and ignorant?

[Animeniax]

Which statement(s)?

You're A-A aren't you?

[Assertn]

One thing that IS true, however....

The value of a vote is definitely not weighted equally across all people in the nation.

[Animeniax]

And neither should it be.

[Sapphire]

Which statement(s)?

You're A-A aren't you?
Nevermind, everything you say is totally right.

[Assertn]

And neither should it be.
the should you're referring to is different than the should that it is.

[Animeniax]

Nevermind, everything you say is totally right.
I love when people use this argument to defer any further discussion. It's the easy way out all Americans desire.

[The Heretic Azazel]

The main defense for the electoral college is the fact that large volumes of people concentrated in large cities tend to vote the same way. It would really be an advantage for the democrats since the larger states, like in the sun belt, have a more sparse population and tend to vote republican. Those people are simply outnumbered when it comes to one person = one vote.

[Ryllharu]

I was listening to the radio the other day and they decided to explain the historical significance of the electoral college.

Basically, it exists and we are the only ones who use it due to one incredible lack of foresight by the Founding Fathers. They assumed that there would never be political parties in the US. So, the equivalent of the current 270 vote majority would never occur. Regular people would nominate several contenders they would like to see in the presidency, and because a lot of random names would never get any kind of majority, Congress would end up choosing among the highest ranking of these (as they would do in a situation today if it came down to a 269-269 split) to ascend to the Presidency.

It's a weird system, but it makes perfect sense if political parties don't exist. The people bring up suggestions, and then the people they chose to represent them would make the final decision, supposedly picking the wisest and most competent person to run the country.

Political parties, as usual, screwed the whole thing up.

[Assertn]

The value of an individual's vote can be derived by two variables: The ratio of a state's population to number of its electoral votes, and how close the state is to being a swing state.

For the former, your weight is higher if the population to vote ratio is closer to 1:1, and for the latter, your weight is higher if you're in a swing state.

Of course, this is entirely because our states represent us in the general elections.

[ChaosK]

The Electoral College is controversial but will stay because:
1) Nobody has faith in the American people to actually make informed decisions. Probably more than half the people voting aren't aware of the issues. I know people who just go in and vote for every democrat/republican depending on their affiliation merely because that's the party they have established themselves with. I personally have on faith in the American people either. The American people are fucking retarded. It is good that a retarded jackass's vote doesn't get too much say merely because it's been 18 years since he was born.
2) Most of the time, the popular vote and the electoral college votes agree on presidency although the popular vote was a lot closer this time than the electoral vote would have you think.

The electoral college however, is very flawed as New York and California will consistently be democratic states, and combined they have 86 votes. Also, the all or nothing bit inevitably excludes a great deal of the voters. In states like Florida and Indiana where the the victor is ahead by a mere 1 or 2%, for him to get all of the votes is essentially discounting the votes of 49% of the state population.

One thing that this election has done though is it's giving the democrats a shot. If the fuck up, it's all on them. The American people are never happy and always have a tendency to change ruling parties around every 2-3 terms (excluding FDR). This is cause they automatically assume that since their current state of life sucks, voting the other way will change it, then 8 years later they realize it still sucks, so they go back hoping it will be changed again, and it's just a endless cycle of incompetence. Things are different though, with the economy falling and Obama's presidency hyped up to the max, in 2 years, if shit's bad, the midterm elections will probably swing back in republican favor.

I personally don't think Obama will last in office for more than one term. Then again, I think he's probably going to be shot before he's inaugurated so...yeah.

[Animeniax]

I was thinking that too. Too many guns, too many gun nuts, too many people who won't give the man a chance. Joe Biden might have just won the easiest presidential bid in our history. The Rodney King riots will be the rhetorical boy scout cookout in comparison.

[Kraco]

I don't know about this shooting thing. Bush will soon have been in power for eight years, and nobody shot him. If you say there are so many guns and gun nuts, it would be impossible there aren't some among them who'd hate Bush, or simply wouldn't care who they are shooting as long as it's a president. Considering Bush's war record, there should be even some crazed ex-soldiers, who would have the experience.

[Ryllharu]

Secret Service will be watching Obama more stringently than any President before him, that you can be sure of.

[Animeniax]

I don't know about this shooting thing. Bush will soon have been in power for eight years, and nobody shot him. If you say there are so many guns and gun nuts, it would be impossible there aren't some among them who'd hate Bush, or simply wouldn't care who they are shooting as long as it's a president. Considering Bush's war record, there should be even some crazed ex-soldiers, who would have the experience.
Yes, but Bush isn't black.

[Kraco]

That doesn't change anything. The point was your line "Too many guns, too many gun nuts", unless you also mean guns only kill black people and nuts only kill black people. According to my experience of this world, neither select their victims very carefully. Besides, white American presidents have been killed before, and while assassinating leaders (unless they are like Hitler and Stalin) is not much of a solution in my opinion, you'd think Bush is much worse than Kennedy as a president, at least based on how much fame JFK later garnered.

[Animeniax]

JFK was assassinated for various political (and economic) reasons which will probably never fully come to light. Bush is the figurehead of the power structure that is in place and all of his actions work to keep it that way. Typically it's not some crazies that kill world leaders, it's usually more insidious. But in Obama's case, it will come down to some racist with a sniper rifle.

[animus]

That doesn't change anything. The point was your line "Too many guns, too many gun nuts", unless you also mean guns only kill black people and nuts only kill black people. According to my experience of this world, neither select their victims very carefully. Besides, white American presidents have been killed before, and while assassinating leaders (unless they are like Hitler and Stalin) is not much of a solution in my opinion, you'd think Bush is much worse than Kennedy as a president, at least based on how much fame JFK later garnered.

Bush is the figurehead and savior of all these Gun Nuts. He's got his gun policies with a cherry on top for them. Besides, all the gun nuts are the red necks that are the same breed as Bush and from his home state of Texas.

[rockmanj]

Secret Service will be watching Obama more stringently than any President before him, that you can be sure of.


Yea, I'm pretty sure of that. The crazies will be going extra hard. I actually find something funny...like all these white guys I know that say there is no more racism in America find out about all theses attempts to thwart the Dem's campaign, and like all the racist stuff thats being said, like amoung and between their family and friends and they are like, shocked that people still think that way...sadly, I know that they're not, and I'm starting to see why they don't know about stuff like that; like, cause they haven't had to deal with it in their lives.