Anime erotic subculture goes mainstream

[Idealistic]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26639577/

Apparently.... Gurren Lagann is a sexually explicit show.


“When you see a kid sitting in Borders reading a manga, he’s not just reading a comic book,” Macias said. “There is something really powerful going on there.”
LOL!

[Death BOO Z]

...the expanding popularity of otaku is a positive reaction to the problems of global alienation, mass culture’s assault on individual identity, changed gender roles, and “the lack of satisfactory grand narratives.”



Damn, I was about to get copyrights on that kind of sentence.

still, I can't find any serious flaw in the article, it's a pretty much a bullseye.

[Board of Command]

Except for this little blurb:

But sexually-suggestive and explicit anime like "Gurren Lagann" and "Legend of the Overfiend," is finding an eager audience of adult Americans who are drawn to the post-modern, almost post-human mash-up of playful, blurry morality found in the genre.
HAHAHAHAHAHAA

[XanBcoo]

I went into that article thinking it would be as misinformed as all the others, but aside from the usual scaremongering that all American media contains, it's pretty well informed. Hell, it even tries to push the idea that Lolicons aren't pedophiles.

I've got nothing to criticize it with.

[Animeniax]

Not a bad article, but his central point is flawed. Basically he's saying that otaku lifestyle is taking over and that it's ok. It's not really. It's like in the early 2000s when mainstream media was saying it's cool to be homosexual and everyone was coming out of the closet because it was the hip thing to be, even if they weren't gay.

Being otaku is nothing to celebrate, at least not if you go by the American definition of otaku, which basically means you're not socially adept and somewhat pathetic. The Japanese definition of otaku means you're a big (almost obsessive) fan of anything, not just tech or geek culture, so it's a little more forgiving. But ask any of these otaku (who aren't delusional from years of isolation) and they'd admit the desire to actually have friends and a real girlfriend.

[XanBcoo]

But ask any of these otaku (who aren't delusional from years of isolation) and they'd admit the desire to actually have friends and a real girlfriend.
I dunno. There's enough girl otaku out there to give the dude otakus some hope. The only delusion a lot of otaku suffer nowadays is that having a girl in your group of friends actually makes you attractive.

[Buffalobiian]

If there are otaku in my area, then I'm not aware of them. From the way I see it, Australia's still part of the backward-American fandom. ie, otaku=college males.

Perhaps I just need to look a bit harder though. There's bound to be an anime convention somewhere that I've never heard of in my life.

(edit: wiki tells me there's one near my in September.....)

[Animeniax]

I dunno. There's enough girl otaku out there to give the dude otakus some hope. The only delusion a lot of otaku suffer nowadays is that having a girl in your group of friends actually makes you attractive.
We have to be careful to differentiate between the Japanese and American definition of otakus. In Japan, otaku-ness is slowly gaining acceptance, but only where it's an obsession (some would call it dedication) to something, particularly if its not tech/anime culture. Just as in the US, wide acceptance of super-dorky geeks will probably never happen in Japan.

If you love something enough, like cooking or guitar playing, you can be considered an otaku in Japan. And since there will be girls who love the same things, you can break free of the "loner nerd" stigma that is associated with tech/anime culture.

[XanBcoo]

We have to be careful to differentiate between the Japanese and American definition of otakus. In Japan, otaku-ness is slowly gaining acceptance, but only where it's an obsession (some would call it dedication) to something, particularly if its not tech/anime culture. Just as in the US, wide acceptance of super-dorky geeks will probably never happen in Japan.

If you love something enough, like cooking or guitar playing, you can be considered an otaku in Japan. And since there will be girls who love the same things, you can break free of the "loner nerd" stigma that is associated with tech/anime culture.
Ah, yes I agree with all this. I was actually referring to the American definition of it, though.

[Animeniax]

Silly Americans, perverting the wholesome goodness of being an otaku.

[David75]

Silly Americans, perverting the wholesome goodness of being an otaku.


I highly doubt Japanese invented depression....

[Kraco]

It surely was a surprisingly positive article, though valid points was made in this thread.


“The ideas of good/bad, right/wrong, that duality is not present.”

In addition to the things already quoted here I noticed this one as well. While it's true that in most Hollywood productions good and bad are extremely underlined, even in movies like the Dark Knight, it's not like the division would be nonexistent in anime/manga. Rather I think it's just a lot more realistic often, or stylized and thought-provoking like in Death Note or Code Geass. It's not like it would be completely absent. In fact I think most people would have troubles watching stories with no morality whatsoever.

[Animeniax]

I highly doubt Japanese invented depression....
Is that the French definition of "otaku"? :p You're just asking for a WWII joke.

[David75]

Is that the French definition of "otaku"? :p You're just asking for a WWII joke.
I just meant that the average Otaku description fits some kind of depression. Hence my remark ;)

edit: WOOT! 888th post! WOOT

[Buffalobiian]

Does 888 mean something in French like it does in Chinese?

[David75]

Does 888 mean something in French like it does in Chinese?
Nope, but I like it too.
Regarding ero-anime and mainstream, I need figures to understand what mainstream means in that particular case.

[Buffalobiian]

Nope, but I like it too.
Regarding ero-anime and mainstream, I need figures to understand what mainstream means in that particular case.

I'd say mainstream means it's at least not shunned when mentioned. Not necessarily popular, but socially acceptable. For example, a group of non-otaku friends can go to an Anime Convention like going to a festival, without feeling that they'll be called geeks and all when the tell about it. Or just the very fact that they'd go without feeling they're walking into some cult activity.

[Board of Command]

Mainstream is anything non-hentai.

[Assassin]

not for long

[Yukimura]

I'd say mainstream means it's at least not shunned when mentioned. Not necessarily popular, but socially acceptable. For example, a group of non-otaku friends can go to an Anime Convention like going to a festival, without feeling that they'll be called geeks and all when the tell about it. Or just the very fact that they'd go without feeling they're walking into some cult activity.

If that's the case then I don't think this article has reached where I live. When I told my coworkers I was going to an anime convention they all assumed I was going to watch pokemon hentai and drink Mountain Dew in a Holiday Inn ballroom with a few hundred other people for a whole Saturday.

However on the flip side I notice people at the convention who didn't really look like they came by choice but were instead with children or friends. Yet many of these people seemed to be having an okay or even good time.

I think the only real point one can glean from this article is that the up and coming generation doesn't harbor the stigmatizing distaste for anime that the previous generation had. However, I still wouldn't go so far as to call anime mainstream yet since the members of the previous generation are still alive and well and they don't seem to have changed their opinions for the most part.

[Animeniax]

I think we've strayed from the author's central argument that "sexy" anime is now mainstream and acceptable and that more and more people are interested in it. As with any activity, if enough sickos participate, it somehow means it's socially acceptable, or should be. He's saying that lewd and sexually suggestive anime are ok to watch now without fear of being called a sexual deviant or pervert.

He's wrong of course, and trying to justify his own collection of hentai. He mentions how otaku prefer to idolize figurines with short skirts because they don't "talk back" like real women might. This article is pretty twisted.

[Buffalobiian]

I think we've strayed from the author's central argument that "sexy" anime is now mainstream and acceptable and that more and more people are interested in it. As with any activity, if enough sickos participate, it somehow means it's socially acceptable, or should be. He's saying that lewd and sexually suggestive anime are ok to watch now without fear of being called a sexual deviant or pervert.

Some friends asked me if I had any anime for them to watch for an hour's break. They wanted something easy to jump into, and in general, funny. I showed them Kamen no Maid Guy.

They asked me if it was porn. :(

[Death BOO Z]

Cowboy bebop, cowboy bebop, cowboy bebop...

when someone wants something to jump into anime with, you give him Cowboy bebop.
it was true five years ago, it was true two years ago, it's true now, and it'll be forever the only true choice.

seriously, you should know better.

if someone grabs a tit, then it's not appropriate. no one finds it funny.

in the same notice, who is all the 'fanservice' targeted at? I have yet to encounter an anime fan saying "this series is so awesome! there's hinted booby shots all around! there's this cute girl character, but she has huge breasts! and they hang around hot springs all day!".

do they really exist?

[The Heretic Azazel]

Am I the only one who thinks Cowboy Bebop is overrated? I could never get into it.

[Death BOO Z]

doesn't matter.
cowboy bebop is still the only "right" answer for a first serious anime.
after that: Trigun, Gits movie. princess mononoke, and then let loose of a newly created anime whore.

[XanBcoo]

Completely agree with DBZ that Cowboy Bebop is the best "Gateway anime" out there, for American viewers at least.

Then you've got any Ghibli movie, and possibly Ghost in the Shell. Anything other than that really hits a niche market that most American audiences can't get into unless they're into that sort of thing.

[Buffalobiian]

Cowboy bebop, cowboy bebop, cowboy bebop...

when someone wants something to jump into anime with, you give him Cowboy bebop.
it was true five years ago, it was true two years ago, it's true now, and it'll be forever the only true choice.

seriously, you should know better.

if someone grabs a tit, then it's not appropriate. no one finds it funny.

in the same notice, who is all the 'fanservice' targeted at? I have yet to encounter an anime fan saying "this series is so awesome! there's hinted booby shots all around! there's this cute girl character, but she has huge breasts! and they hang around hot springs all day!".

do they really exist?


I didn't have it on my flash drive. Other choices were Allison&Lillia and Tower of Druaga.

[Animeniax]

I never got into Cowboy Bebop either. I'd suggest Bleach as a good gateway anime, for males anyway, and only through the SS arc. Also, Akira and Ninja Scroll are good starters, and the Rurouni Kenshin movies, if not the series. For females, any of the Ghibli movies like Xan suggested.

[Board of Command]

Princess Mononoke was what got me into anime.

[Animeniax]

Subbed or dubbed version? Cause if it was the dubbed version, damn!

I think it was Gundam 0080 that got me into anime. Oh, new thread idea...

[Abdula]

in the same notice, who is all the 'fanservice' targeted at? I have yet to encounter an anime fan saying "this series is so awesome! there's hinted booby shots all around! there's this cute girl character, but she has huge breasts! and they hang around hot springs all day!".

do they really exist?
I would put Trigun ahead of Bebop because I could never get into that show. Anyway this is a question I really want answered, who is all the fanservice for?

[Board of Command]

Subbed or dubbed version? Cause if it was the dubbed version, damn!

I think it was Gundam 0080 that got me into anime. Oh, new thread idea...
I watched the dubbed version. It was actually decent.

In fact, I've never watched the subbed version. I have it archived in my CD binder but I never watched it.

[Animeniax]

I would put Trigun ahead of Bebop because I could never get into that show. Anyway this is a question I really want answered, who is all the fanservice for? I imagine the original targeted audience of adolescent to young adult male Japanese fans find it hilarious and appealing.

Oh, to quote the Bare-naked Ladies, I used to watch Sailor Moon because they got the boom anime babes that make me think the wrong thing.

[Abdula]

Well I can't say that I know much about what they would or wouldn't like but that is the only rational explanation for all the fan service there is these days but even so. They have to be inundated with even more fan service that we ever see and at some point enough has to be enough.

[Animeniax]

Actually it sucks how much fan service is cut from American versions. Like in DBZ, all of the perverted Master Roshi material was cut out. I don't usually watch US versions of any anime, so I couldn't say how butchered other series might be.

[Abdula]

Those scenes didn't make one bit of difference as far as the story was concerned so I didn't miss them.

[Animeniax]

No, but it adds to the characters and gives them souls. DBZ was so often full of tension, you needed wacky moments to help calm everyone. I like to watch material as the creator originally intended, not as some censor wants to protect us children from. If that keeps it from becoming mainstream, I'm ok with that.

[Assertn]

Welp....this thread settles it.
Gotwoot is now officially an anime forum

[Abdula]

@ Ani: Okay I agree with you but if you hadn't seen the original versions of DBZ you would have never known anything was missing, and as long as it doesn't adversely affect the story it doesn't bother me much. Roshi's character was well established even with the censorship so it didn't affect the story much and DBZ was still full of wacky moments and really a little censorship is to be expected, although I think the entire censorship thing is one big joke but thats for another thread.

More often that not too much fanservice can easily ruin a series, that is one of the reasons I couldn't get into Elfen Lied.

[BurnHavoc]

If there are otaku in my area, then I'm not aware of them. From the way I see it, Australia's still part of the backward-American fandom. ie, otaku=college males.

Perhaps I just need to look a bit harder though. There's bound to be an anime convention somewhere that I've never heard of in my life.

(edit: wiki tells me there's one near my in September.....)

I know a few international students from Australia here who are otaku, one of them is on the executive for our uni's Anime/Geek Culture club (actually known as the Fantasy, Literature, Anime, Sci-Fi and Horror (FLASH) Club, of which I'm the president)


doesn't matter.
cowboy bebop is still the only "right" answer for a first serious anime.
after that: Trigun, Gits movie. princess mononoke, and then let loose of a newly created anime whore.

Actually thats pretty much the exact path I take people down to get them interested in Anime... and my aforementioned club is adopting that method this semester to get a few handfuls of new students into it.

[The Heretic Azazel]

More often that not too much fanservice can easily ruin a series, that is one of the reasons I couldn't get into Elfen Lied.

I was just thinking of Elfen Lied as a gateway anime, if that had been the first show I watched, I would have jumped right in. I don't know, I just love the shock value. And Nyuu's titties. They were round and firm, with just enough bounce.

[Kraco]

Much of the nudity in Elfen Lied wasn't fanservice per se but to illustrate how inhumanly the diclonius were treated in the facility. Though there was also plain fanservice later, no way around that even if you admit Nyuu didn't have other ways of showing her affinity.

Elfen Lied actually was a very early anime for me, and I have a feeling it multiplied my interest in the media instantly. Still, it would be a clear gamble to use it as an introduction to anime.

[Animeniax]

I thought the nudity in Elfen Lied was pandering and unnecessary. It took away from the story, and turned the anime into an object of adolescent titillation instead of whatever message it was meant to convey. I don't think it would be a good starting point for a mainstream anime fan, but a perfect place to start for a future otaku/serial killer.

If you wanted to delve into anime with the entire "locked-away experimental super being" genre, Akira would be a great anime to start with.

[Buffalobiian]

It's hard to say what got me started, since being Chinese meant I watched dubbed anime since I was little.

Ah! My Goddess got me into subbed anime.

[KrayZ33]

I don't even know anymore which series got me into anime.. for me pokemon/digimon and later one piece were all "cartoons" at first.


I think it was a mix of NGE, Goldenboy which aired at late night around 0:00 on TV.

I started to love mecha-series (even though I didn't understand NGE at all... which hasn't changed btw) and anime-comedy like Goldenboy which I believe is one of the best series ever and so on.

and from there on, my collection grew more and more.

After watching them I started to download stuff like Rurouni Kenshin or Oh! My Goddess! and other stuff...

btw Elfen Lied for starters!?
no way... the anime isn't that good and its way to brutal... It's like making people look at Hostel, even though they want to see some normal TV shows or movies...

I think it has to be something with action.as Animeniax said, something like Akira.

Jin-Roh could be another winner in that case imho.
in fact, the better the animatione -> the better the first impression.

It should be something which looks hand-drawn... so not something like Karas or Appleseed.
but more like Princess Mononoke.

But not Elfen Lied... where you have the "cute" and "humorous" sites like Chobits or Love Hina on the one hand, and a few seconds later the most possible disgusting way of showing mental and physical brutality... however the brutality isn't even "cool" it's just absurd and nasty.

ah... Chobits. Hmmm that one was also one of my first animes (however I only watched a few episodes back then and not the whole thing) and I liked it very much because it was very funny.. However I didn't got to know the romantic part back then, but I'm glad I fixed that a few month ago and watched it again, including the later episodes.


Btw some of the first anime-movies shown in the german-cinema for example, were Akira and Ghost in the Shell...I don't know why, but this somehow tells me that " dark-future "- animes are pretty popular.

[Buffalobiian]

It should be something which looks hand-drawn... so not something like Karas or Appleseed.
but more like Princess Mononoke.

Definitely, if you were to introduce "Anime" in its conventional form, and tell people "this is anime."

Appleseed EX Machina was really well done IMO, though I find it hard to call it "anime". After all, 3D and anime were contradictory.

[Death BOO Z]

Elfen lied... It was awesome..
I've watched it all, with an anime loving friends, and 2 non-anime-watchers.
we all enjoyed it (since it's awesome), but during watching, the non watchers (more like non-believers! phaa!) kept asking us if this gets us turned on..
I hated all that fanservice, they kill puppies in the show, they torment kids and put them in research facilities, it doesn't need fanservice.

[Buffalobiian]

Elfen lied... It was awesome..
I've watched it all, with an anime loving friends, and 2 non-anime-watchers.
we all enjoyed it (since it's awesome), but during watching, the non watchers (more like non-believers! phaa!) kept asking us if this gets us turned on..
I hated all that fanservice, they kill puppies in the show, they torment kids and put them in research facilities, it doesn't need fanservice.

I find that movies can get away with this sort of stuff. Like, say, American Pie. You still get people complaining about the nudity and all, but to them, the whole movie is wrong, while to others, the sex is all part of the show. It's the joke. The culture.

Anime, not quite so. Besides hentai, you can almost always take out the fanservice, and the story can proceed much the same. But isn't the fanservice (in particular cases), also the joke? The culture?

[KrayZ33]

well to put it simply... Ikki Tousen would get a 0/10 from me without fanservice

with fanservice it manages to get a 2/10 ! All thanks to the blue haired girl in a maid costume.

if you want to compare anime-fanservice with scenes from american pie you should do it with an anime like Goldenboy... because thats were it plays a role and is part of the story/comedy

In Elfen-Lied or Ikki Tousen, fanservice is just lame and not needed, especially when the story etc suffer from the heavy amount of fanservices like in Ikki-Tousen.

Fanservice in Ikki-Tousen is like watching some bruce lee movie with tits and asses every ~5 seconds.
I can imagine lee screaming his battlecry " WooooOOooaoaaaAAhhuuuu" and then -> scene switch to a girl, dancing naked somewhere for 3 seconds -> scene switch to lee breaking someone's arm or neck

I hate it if fanservice is "just there" and not part of a comedy scene for example. It feels weird and I can understand everyone who askes you or me
if this gets us turned on.. if you like something like this ^^

animes like that will hopefully never get to be "mainstream"

btw @ DBZ: Did Elfen Lied have so much fanservice? it's been a while since I watched it but I can't remember it to be full of fanservice.

I wouldn't call "Lucy beeing naked in the begin" fanservice... but I can't remember what happened in the "comedy parts" of the story anymore.

[Death BOO Z]

American pie had points to it's nudity, the plot revolved around sex.
I guess it's the same in harem animes, like love hina or ranma. I can even see how it's used in some gag\comedy animes... but it's far too overused to make it funny.

[Board of Command]

Elfen Lied was one of my early series. It was definitely one of the first alternative series I watched, and I liked it a lot.

[animus]

Guyver was my first anime. I used to watch it with my cousin and occasionally my sister. However, my sister said she would get nightmares from all the gore, but there's really not that much gore I guess except pools of blood. Though the anime that really got me started and into watching anime, was probably Gundam Wing.

[Animeniax]

If Gundam Wing had been my first anime series I would have sworn off all anime and never touched the stuff again.

[Board of Command]

Escaflowne (dubbed) was one of my earliest series and I really liked the animation. It showed me that not all anime are drawn like DBZ.

[Animeniax]

I saw Escaflowne early on too, but the subbed version. I've always been a purist about subbing. Akira and DBZ are two of the very few dubbed animes I like.

[narutosharingan]

This is a really interesting topic, I must admit. I think what first drew me into anime was DBZ. I always loved cartoons, and I started watching DBZ whenever I'd come home from school. Slowly I experimented a bit and got into other anime, with Bebop and Trigun being the earlier ones. It's an interesting transition, no doubt. I feel that Cowboy Bebop and Trigun are certianly the best beginner anime, since they really don't go so wacky as to scar people from watching further anime.

I think the article itself is a little misleading, since anime is not erotic for the most part. But if someone were to read this, I feel they would get the wrong interpretation of what anime is like. Certainly there are plenty hentai and whatever, but it's not like it's going to takeover the US. I have no problem with people who are into that, of course. Sometimes it's hard to explain to people that I like anime and that going to Otakon isn't some weird thing. My friends are usually cool with it, but I'm sure they think it's odd.

[David75]

Captain Future, Ufo Robot Mazinger, Captain Harlock, San Kukaï (not anime... but Japanese), Candy Candy were my first contacts with japanime.
I liked them a lot, like other anime at the time. I couldn't really tell they were japanese, yet they were a bit different, that themes and background stories were very different.
But honestly at the time, I didn't have the mindset to have a very detailed analysis on the anime I watched. I could only feel it.

Then there was atakkā yū, captain tsubasa, KOR, Maison Ikkoku, Hokuto no ken, DB and DBZ, Saint Seiya, Cats Eyes, makyou densetsu akrobunch, Nadia the secret of blue water,Mr Ajikko, Space Adventure Cobra, City Hunter, etc... that really got me hooked as an older child then teenager.

after teenagehood, nothing for like ten years, and there's now...

So It was a 3 phase hook, starting in kindergarten.

[Death BOO Z]

guys, keep the 'my first anime' talk in it's proper place, there has to be some dead topic to necromance if you really want (narutosharingan... where did you come back from?)..

anime is generally plenty erotic, maybe not 'proper' erotic, and not exactly 'sex-driven', but the female body parts take up far too much air-time for me to be comfortable with, even when watching alone, and especially if I'm trying to watch it with my kid brother.

I don't have any argument against hentai, or against animes like golden boy, who's only intention is to show us as many boobs, breast and panties as possible, but when if I can't watch a normal fighting show (say... Naruto, or Bleach) without getting a scene about panties, onsens or a nosebleed, then things are pretty much fucked up.

there's a huge difference between having a romance sub-plot, or even a romance main plot, from showing cleavage in second scene.

[Kraco]

That's an old anime tradition, though. Can't have one without the other. I guess the Japanese, behind their stiff hierarchical culture of half-empty flattering, are still more honest than many others. Or maybe the exaggeration is a way to vent. In any case the generous fanservice has been there and will be there whether foreigners like it or not. And thus if we choose to watch the media, we must also accept the fanservice within. It doesn't even make sense to want to watch entertainment from the other side of the world and expect it to be similar to whatever is the tradition in one's own country.

[XanBcoo]

That's an old anime tradition, though. Can't have one without the other. I guess the Japanese, behind their stiff hierarchical culture of half-empty flattering, are still more honest than many others.Or maybe the exaggeration is a way to vent.
I'm confused as to what definition of "honest" you're working off of here.

In any case, I completely agree that the exaggeration is a form of escapism. It's the same reason why there's always a scene of some character stuffing their faces with too much food. That kind of stuff is frowned upon in Japan and so naturally they find cartoon characters doing it hilarious. It's still obnoxious when touching a boob on accident and getting repirmanded for it with a paper fan to the face is tantamount to "humor", like DBZ said, but I guess that's just the Japanese equivalent of being an "edgy" comedian over here on Comedy Central.

It's pretty easy to tell the hacks from the real talent.

[Kraco]

Honest in recognizing males, especially youths, are very interested in female bodies. And so they shamelessly exploit that interest in anime. Domestic animation expressly for people older than kids doesn't have a very strong mainstream tradition in the West and thus its understandable it can't be used as such a statistically relevant object of comparison to gauge the general opinion of our (animation) entertainment business.

Well, I know I wouldn't want to watch some shows if some older people could be looking over my shoulder at the screen. They would hardly understand the need for needlessly scantily clad females...

[shinta|hikari]

Well, I think fanservice by definition is unnecessary. The Japanese use the word "service" in katakana (and yes, they use this word exactly when referring to fanservice) when giving extra or free things, like a bonus. They put it in for it's own sake (well, for the fans that like it) and it was never meant to develop the plot or anything.

As for the reason they put it in, it is probably due to a number of factors. One is the practical reason of simple demand for it. Another may be the repression, or rather, the sudden lack of repression in Japan's youth population as of recent.

I personally don't mind fanservice, unless it is done very cheaply (Rosario x Vampire) or if it is the only content of the show (Ikkitousen). Otherwise, I consider it an extra treat that I could do without and ignore if I want to.