Naruto vs. Sasuke

[Archangel]

I wasn't sure how to name this thread since the name can't contain spoilers. No this isn't a who would win if they fought thread, it's a move vs. move thread, more precisely:


Rasenshuriken
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b232/paulosergio96/rasenshuriken.jpg

VS.

Kirin
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b232/paulosergio96/kirin.jpg

They both seem to have amazing destructive power. While i'd say Rasenshuriken seems to be the deadlier of the 2 ( i just can't see anything surviving after getting hit by that ) it doesn't have such a big area of effect as Kirin does which makes it alot easier to hit your opponent. Then again it does require the use of outside forces and we all know how unpredictable the weather can be :p

Finally i'd say Kirin is the superior jutsu not because of it's power but simply because it doesn't have any of the nasty side effects that come from the Rasenshuriken, but if we're talking of raw power then the prize goes to Naruto's jutsu.

[DB_Hunter]

No contest, Sasuke wins.

[Uchiha Barles]

What's wrong with spoilers in this section of the forums? Anyway, unless Sasuke's technique is at all dodgeable, Sasuke's technique own's Naruto's. However, techniques are situational things. It took Sasuke quite some time and set up to gather the energy necessary to pull that off. It takes Naruto a set up to get off that rasengan, but no time to make it. Not to mention it took a lot of Sasuke's Chakra to even set that technique up. If Sasuke's technique fails for whatever reason, that's the end. If Naruto's fails, as in doesn't hit, he can try again. I really don't see anything surviving a hit from that. So I actually prefer Naruto's technique.

[Abdula]

Nice thread Archangel but how can you say you would give Naruto's pathetic rasengan the edge in power. Naruto's rasengan was meant to counter Sasuke's chidori, its no match for a technique like that.

Just from the pics alone you can tell the difference in raw power, not to mention that a technique like Sasuke's that requires a preset number of conditions before it can even be used, by anime standards, is usually always the most powerful. If its power Sasuke wins, if its based on the opponent's ability to avoid the jutsu, Sasuke wins.

Naruto's rasengan is less powerful but it has the bonus of maneuverability and if he misses he can simply use it again. Sasuke's technique on the other hand is more powerful and has the bonus of being unavoidable, the drawback is that the technique requires a number of conditions before it can even be used and won't work if those conditions aren't met.

Bottom line is, if its those two techniques against each other, Sasuke wins.

What's wrong with spoilers in this section of the forums?
He just means he couldn't put a spoiler in the thread title, so he couldn't name it Kirin vs Rasenshuriken

[Archangel]

Well when i said it was more powerful i meant that i just don't see a way to survive when getting hit by that, it's a zillion mini attacks that go for you at close range while the kirin could be countered with a strong enough barrier (like susanoo's shield).

As for jutsu vs. jutsu, Kirin wins at long range, Rasenshuriken wins at close range ( assuming naruto is good enough to make it connect )

[Death BOO Z]

I had to use Wiki to find out what Kirin was...
being as it uses the energy around us, can it be considered a Sage jutsu?

anyway, I think Kirin is better.
more power, better accuracy, hits more than one..

I don't think it's chackra demands are so great, either. Sasuke can spit as many flame attacks as he wants, and that seems to be enough to get the weather going. and after that, he just needs to tap and direct the lightning to the target, which makes it a good cost-effective jutsu. especially if he uses it in the beginning of the battle and continues to use it throughout the fight (if someone is still left alive).

downside, other than what was said earlier, is that it leaves him vunrable to forms of energy manipulation, a 100% lightning master could "ride" the lightning and "trap" Sasuke with some sort of chackra form manipulation skill. but that's probably not going to happen.

[Abdula]

Well when i said it was more powerful i meant that i just don't see a way to survive when getting hit by that, it's a zillion mini attacks that go for you at close range while the kirin could be countered with a strong enough barrier (like susanoo's shield).

As for jutsu vs. jutsu, Kirin wins at long range, Rasenshuriken wins at close range ( assuming naruto is good enough to make it connect )

Kirin can't be countered, it can be blocked there is a difference. Its an unavoidable technique afterall and are you trying to insinuate that naruto's rasengan wouldn't be stopped by something like Susanoo's shield, not to mention that with Naruto's rasengan you can just get the hell out of the way. What does this long range short range thing have to do with anything if its rasenshuriken against kirin, the two techniques against each other. Besides its been well established in Naruto that long range trumps short range.

[Archangel]

Besides its been well established in Naruto that long range trumps short range.

I still stand by what i said, at close range naruto would win since Sasuke's move affects such a wide area and would kill him too if he was too close to his opponent.

Could the Rasenshuriken defeat Susanoo's shield... i have no idea but i do think it would stand a better chance than Kirin ever did. After all, it attacks on a molecular level.

As for just getting the hell out of the way i already explained that on the first post, we're discussing raw power right now not usability.

As for a direct confrontation of jutsu vs. jutsu, assuming that the Rasenshuriken can connect against the incorporeal Kirin, it should win since it has the elemental advantage but we have no way to know that untill Kishi tells us.

[Abdula]

You misunderstand me, I know what you mean. What I mean is that if its just the two techniques against each other kirin would win, I'm not talkin about a particular battle set up or either fighter using some strategic maneuvering. I thought this thread was about just the two techniques not the fighters that use them or any particular battle situation because if all of that comes into play then the discussion in this thread would be pointless. Someone could say Naruto uses a shadow clone and attacks from behind or Sasuke uses a genjutsu against Naruto and then attacks with kirin it would just go on and on and in a situation like that what it comes down to isn't the superiority of either technique but the abilities of the person using them.

What does attacking on a molecular level have to do with Susanoo, Susanoo is an ethereal being. Thats like saying Naruto's wind rasengan would defeat Minato's shinigami because it attacks on a molecular level, it doesn't make any sense.

If we're discussing raw power and not usability then why are you talking about range?

Kakashi already said it, the elemental advantage only works if the two techniques are the same level. Naruto's wind rasengan would win against chidori because we already saw that rasengan against chidori is a stalemate so adding wind element would give him the advantage. If one technique is overall more powerful than the other, elemental advantages and disadvantages don't matter.

[Archangel]

Well the jutsus are exclusive to their fighters so it's inevitable that the character's strengths and weaknesses also come to play when discussing this,

... yeah no point in discussing this, susanoo is invincible.

I started talking about range because u started talking about jutsu vs. jutsu and like i said unless we know if the Rasenshuriken can connect or not that discussion is pointless.

Yeah, but again you are assuming that Kirin has more power than the Rasenshuriken and i just can't agree with that.

Anyway i'm going to bed, let's continue this another time Abdula.

[Abdula]

Well the jutsus are exclusive to their fighters so it's inevitable that the character's strengths and weaknesses also come to play when discussing this,

... yeah no point in discussing this, susanoo is invincible.

I started talking about range because u started talking about jutsu vs. jutsu and like i said unless we know if the Rasenshuriken can connect or not that discussion is pointless.

Yeah, but again you are assuming that Kirin has more power than the Rasenshuriken and i just can't agree with that.

Anyway i'm going to bed, let's continue this another time Abdula.
1. But you said we are not discussing that. Now it sounds like you're either backing down or changing your mind

2. Okay

3. but that is the entire premise of this thread isn't it, or am I mistaken.

4. Why not, Naruto's wind rasengan isn't so much about power its nature manipulation. They never said they were making his rasengan more powerful the whole point of his training was just to add wind nature to the rasengan.

[Uchiha Barles]

I'm with Archangel on this one. One way of telling a jutsu's power in anime is by looking at the reactions of notable people going "omfg hax" when seeing the Jutsu done. The power of Rasengan was felt by the Akatsuki Naruto killed with it, even before it connected. "Oh even I can't get hit by that...that's a jutsu fit for a monster." This is 50% completion. Not to mention the crater it creates after contact. Now recall, the Rasengan is a ball of chakra concentrated to the max, spinning at max speed, and made to retain it's shape through contact with an opponent or object. Add the cutting power of wind element to that, and I can't really imagine a more destructive technique. Hell, the 50% completion, probably has to do with the fact that naruto can only fill 50% of rasengan's capacity to hold wind attribute. (complete conjecture, but it makes sense). I'm pretty sure, that's the type of technique he can use to rip his way right through kirin. So jutsu vs. jutsu, I give it to Wind Rasengan.

[Abdula]

Goddamn time out, my beautiful post gone.

I must say I fully expected Archangel to make such an argument but not you, I'm really disappointed. First off all I really don't care about the opinion of team Asuma or Sakura, Yamato and Sai who had their asses handed to them by Sasuke or the opinion of Kakashi who had his ass handed to him by Itachi. Nor Kakuzu, since news of his death got a chuckle out of Kisame. Secondly Naruto's rasengan didn't kill anybody, it destroyed the cells in Kazuku's body, and some of Naruto's too I might add, and Kakashi killed him. I've said this before and I'll say it again Rasengan doesn't kill.

Now it may sound like I'm being an ass but really its not without reason. When I read your post I did a double take and then I had to get up and go do something else, just to let what you posted sink in.

Anyway on to my point, as for the power of Sasuke's technique, 1 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/391/02-03/) 2 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/391/05/) 3 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/391/07/)
4 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/391/11/)

As far as damage goes, before (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/391/02-03/), impact (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/391/10/), afterward (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/391/12/).

Scaring Zetsu witless and forcing (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/391/16/) Itachi (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/391/17/) to use his strongest move, priceless.

I really can't believe that you guys actually think that Sasuke, the person Naruto has been struggling to keep up with since the very beginning of the series, the person whose power Madara desires more than the Kyuubi, the person Itachi gave his life for and the person who gives Kishimoto a massive hard-on, doesn't have a technique more powerful than Naruto's played out rasengan. WOW.

-Btw where did this 50% stuff come from? Naruto wasn't able to use the technique properly during training but just like he did with the original rasengan when it came to the real battle he managed to use it. Atleast that is what I got.

[Uchiha Barles]

Yamato said it was 50% complete when Kakashi asked if Naruto perfected the technique during the Kakuzu fight.

Alright, let me retract everything I said about how to estimate the power of the techniques, save for one thing: the rasengan is a ball of MAXIMUM chakra out, spun at MAX speed, made to STAY and RETAIN it's shape with whatever it comes in contact with. That's what the rasengan is. When a regular rasengan came in contact with a chidori, they canceled each other.The chidori can "cut lightning", so one can imagine it's an extremely powerful piercing technique, and an elemental one at that. Yet, a regular rasengan is just barely canceled by it, at the cost of the chidori itself.

Ok, now, lets add the wind element to the ball with staying power. Concentrated chakra as I described it in the previous paragraph, with the wind element all the good stuff that comes with it. I mean, I'm not even sure how to continue this, it seems that obvious. That ball isn't breaking, specially if it's coming against the element that wind trumps.

About Rasengan not killing people, huh? When Jiraiya pushed a rasengan through a tree trunk, it utterly ate right through it. When people throw knives at a tree trunk, it gets stuck in the trunk, not very deeply might I add. People have been killed by a knife thrown at them, a regular one, but rasengan doesn't kill? More accurately, Rasengan HASN'T killed anyone you've seen, except for that very big one Naruto used to kill fake Itachi.

Now, this here is just absurd, Naruto didn't kill Kakuzu, Kakashi did, all Naruto did with the wind Rasengan was destroy every cell in Kakuzu's body? Lets analyse that for a second. There are quite a few types of cells in the body, lets take a look at a few of them. Muscle cells were destroyed. This means, Kakuzu's diapragm was no longer working. Meaning, he couldn't breathe in and out. Couldn't swallow. His heart stopped pumping blood to any of his organs. Not that it would matter if the did, or if kakuzu could still breathe because Red Blood Cells were destroyed, meaning they're no longer serving their oxygen transporting function. Kakuzu's nerve cells were destroyed. He's not moving ever again, as if he could even they weren't destroyed, considering his muscles cells were destroyed. The systems regulated by nerve impulses would no longer work like, oh say heart beating. Oh, we covered that with muscle cells being destroyed. What about breathing, oh, that too was covered with muscles destroyed. Overkill anyone? Then there are the cells that make up the liver, kidney, and other organs. All kinds of crap would start pouring into his system in places they didn't belong. Bile, adrenaline, glycogen and a whole mess of other stuff, none of which would be where it belongs. All types of system failure and shock would be afllicting this guy. He should've been dead instantaneously. You ought to get the point. Kakuzu was plain old dead. Why did Kishimoto do the stupid move of having to make Kakashi finish him off? Just for the sake of continuing to make Naruto look like a baby. That had NOTHING to do with the wind rasengan not killing. Because clearly, it kills.

[shinta|hikari]

If it is direct opposition, I go with Rasenshuriken. I don't really give a fuck about Rasengan, since it sucks, but we should not forget that the addition of the wind element does not work like 1 damage + 1 damage = 2 damage. It grew exponentially.

Let us also not forget that the rasenshuriken is a technique that even the 4th did not manage to master, so I don't really see Sasuke simply winning this one, despite the elemental disadvantage, just because Naruto is a weak-ass idiot (he is really). It was never about Naruto, but the jutsu in the first place. One can even say that Naruto does not deserve such a skill (nor can he use it properly with his poor taijutsu etc).

And in order to address the issue of "conditions" of the jutsu, it is true that kirin has more of them, but the rasenshuriken destroys the USER at a molecular level. I believe the most powerful techniques in any shounen series are of this (self sacrifice, HxH anyone?) sort.

But, no one can be sure, since Kishi has done more stupid things before to his own story, so just because he idolizes Sasuke, the kirin may just as well pawn rasenshuriken with no explanation other than Sasuke is a genius.

EDIT: If it is an actual fight though, not simply hitting the move against each other, then kirin would probably own rasenshuriken, provided it is Sasuke and Naruto fighting. Rasenshuriken would never hit anyway. I hate that move.

[Abdula]

@Uchiha Barles
Yes and that was before Naruto used it.

Kirin isn't chidori, I agree completely that rasengan his wind rasengan would utterly obliterate chidori but kirin isn't chidori, kirin doesn't even use his chakra, its pure lightning and like Zetsu said the power of that is more than anyone could ever create with chakra and nature manipulation alone, its like what the filler guys tried to do with Raiga only its actually canon and there is a capable ninja using it . Plus based solely on the size of the technique trying hit it with rasengan would be suicide, even if rasengan could connect with it, the lightening bolt is so huge he would still get damaged. Itachi blocked the technique and look at the damage it still caused. Kirin isn't Sasuke's chakra so it isn't anything like chidori he is directing a force of nature that simple and like I said elemental affinities only matter if the techniques are on the same level.

Yes more accurately rasengan hasn't killed anyone and it never will. You know why Kishimoto had Kakashi finish him off because this is Naruto and if Kishi didn't even let Sasuke kill anyone he is never going to let Naruto do it. How can you say the technique kills when someone who took a direct hit from it survived it, and he was still lucid and able to talk after the attack. You can talk about the effects Naruto's jutsu has on people but the point is all of that didn't happen and Kakuzu didn't die, and frankly I find that to be just as ridiculous as you do but thats the way Kishi made it. Oh and since you brought up the effects of Naruto's rasengan, have you ever seen anyone killed by lightning, because I have and I doubt you would want to see what the effects are.

[Archangel]

That makes me think, while chidori is lighting strengthened by chakra, Kirin is pure lightning. Yes it has a massive amount of electricity but it's just that, so if they could create something that could isolate them from that electricity then the move should be worthless.

Argh i hate to think that a dude with a rubber suit wouldn't be hurt by Kirin... someone tell me I'm wrong.

[shinta|hikari]

You know, I just realized something funny. If the naruto wiki description of the kirin is accurate, it is very weak since it is merely lightning energy directed at a target. Heck a car can protect you from that.

http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/vehicle_strike.html

EDIT: ah, you beat me to it, and no, a rubber suit won't protect you from that, it is targeted after all.

Oh, and I know this does not actually apply, since physics never do apply in Naruto.

[Abdula]

You people grossly underestimate lightning, in Naruto.

@ Archangel: No worries you are wrong, the attack was the size of a mountain and it destroyed one so even if someone was wearing a rubber suit or in Luffy's case made of rubber, just from the explosion that would result from the lightning hitting the ground would do massive damage.

[shinta|hikari]

Lightning can destroy mountains? Wait, it explodes!? The wiki description must be inaccurate then.

@Abdula - No, you grossly overestimate it, unless you are referring to the exploding lightning in Naruto.

[Abdula]

physics never do apply in Naruto. We are talking about Naruto right.

[shinta|hikari]

Exactly. I already wrote that down before you commented that "we grossly underestimate lightning". My comment was obviously about actual lightning and how Naruto managed to twist it. Heck you even quoted me saying it doesn't apply.

You should have clarified your edit before that and said "You people grossly underestimate lightning in Naruto". Then no one would complain.

[Uchiha Barles]

but kirin isn't chidori, kirin doesn't even use his chakra, its pure lightning and like Zetsu said the power of that is more than anyone could ever create with chakra and nature manipulation alone, its like what the filler guys tried to do with Raiga only its actually canon and there is a capable ninja using it .


Alright, you do have a point on that. Nonetheless, Kakashi cut through a lightning bolt, supposedly, with a chidori. I mean, that has to be way more power than anyone could ever make with ninjutsu, a lightning bolt I mean. What keeps me from agreeing with you is the description of the rasengan. It's like, the unbreakable shield. A ball you just can't compress any further. I'm thinking the rasengan is being underestimated here. And yes, I'm seeing Naruto flying with his wind rasengan out, literally carving his way through the kirin. An unbreakable ball of an element that's not going anywhere. You also mentioned that the size of the kirin would basically insure that even if the rasengan connected, the kirin would still harm and probably kill the user. You know what I see, as I've seen in a lot of other anime? When the rasengan and kirin connect, instead of breaking a path the size of the rasengan itself, it'll carve a path through the kirin as if it was an unbreakable umbrella of wind element that Naruto was holding out ahead of himself, thus allowing him to go right through it, unharmed. Come on man, you see it too :-P.

As far as jutsu power impressions go, I hate to admit it, but that shinta guy has a couple of points. The fourth couldn't pull off an elemental rasengan in his shortened lifetime, and the most powerful techniques are the ones that come at a cost to the user's health.

Other than these things though, I've got nothing. The fact that kirin's power is more than a person should be able to generate using ninjutsu born of his own chakra is a good point.

[Marik]

I go with Rasenshuriken, because it's already extremely powerful and dangerous at 50%. It'll be even better when he completes it and can actually throw it. Once he's able to throw it, I think it will be harder to dodge and lessen the range advantage of Kirin.

If I remember correctly, Wind beats Lightning in the Naruto world. I think it's Wind -> Lightning -> Earth -> Water -> Fire -> Wind. Wind seems to be the more rarer of the two also. Naruto is the only wind user in Konoha, now that Asuma is dead.

Man I've been hoping for a long time that Naruto gets a second element like water, then he could have an answer to both of Sasuke's elements. Then he could combine water and wind into ice like Haku.

[Uchiha Barles]

I go with Rasenshuriken, because it's already extremely powerful and dangerous at 50%. It'll be even better when he completes it and can actually throw it. Once he's able to throw it, I think it will be harder to dodge and lessen the range advantage of Kirin.

If I remember correctly, Wind beats Lightning in the Naruto world. I think it's Wind -> Lightning -> Earth -> Water -> Fire -> Wind. Wind seems to be the more rarer of the two also. Naruto is the only wind user in Konoha, now that Asuma is dead.

Man I've been hoping for a long time that Naruto gets a second element like water, then he could have an answer to both of Sasuke's elements. Then he could combine water and wind into ice like Haku.

They said something about wind being very rare, but uh...I'm almost sure, we've seen more wind users than any other element user. Might've seen more of other elements, but I think as far as user number, we've seen more wind users. Also, Neiji uses wind element.

[Archangel]

Man I've been hoping for a long time that Naruto gets a second element like water, then he could have an answer to both of Sasuke's elements. Then he could combine water and wind into ice like Haku.

Haku was only able to do that because of his bloodline limit. Even if naruto does gain control over another element he will never be able to combine them.


Also, Neiji uses wind element.

We don't know that for sure.

[Uchiha Barles]

We know for sure he used a wind element hadoken type technique during the "clone wars". whether it's his first element or not, is another story, but wind is the only element we've seen him use.

[Archangel]

For one thing that's a filler since it didn't come in the manga and also it's never specified that it is a wind technique, he doesn't say futton in the beginning of it ( at least i don't think he did, i'll check )

[itadakimasu]

No contest, Sasuke wins.

Agreed.

especially w\ the atomic sharingan.... naruto was no match when he just had regular sharingan and 90% fewer moves.

[Sidnne]

Sorry, I'm not a Sasuke fan, but I had to go with Kirin.

The version of rasengan you are discussing is not the same "level" as kirin in terms of jutsu upgrades in an anime setting and thus can't be compared. That rasengan was designed to be on the level of the chidori current. Whatever Naruto learns from his sage training will be the counter to kirin.

Look at it this way:

Level 1: Chidori vs Rasengan
Level 2: Chidori Nagashi vs Fuuton Rasengan
Level 3: Kirin vs Sage Technique

[Archangel]

The full body chidori will be used to counter the Rasenshuriken ???

U think sasuke has too many body parts or something?

[DB_Hunter]

The only way Naruto will be able to 'counter' Kirin is if he learns Minato's Thunder Flash teleportation technique... which if timed correctly will be able to avoid the one shot Sasuke has, leaving Sasuke open and drained to attack.

[Sidnne]

The full body chidori will be used to counter the Rasenshuriken ???

U think sasuke has too many body parts or something?

Ummm... What?

[Abdula]

What keeps me from agreeing with you is the description of the rasengan. It's like, the unbreakable shield. A ball you just can't compress any further. I'm thinking the rasengan is being underestimated here.
Sorry but I'm long past the point of believing any hype about the rasengan. Just look how hyped up it was when Naruto got it, incredible A rank technique created by the fourth, that for some reason only a few people can do but yet Sasuke's B ranked chidori ended up being a match for it.


And yes, I'm seeing Naruto flying with his wind rasengan out, literally carving his way through the kirin. An unbreakable ball of an element that's not going anywhere. You also mentioned that the size of the kirin would basically insure that even if the rasengan connected, the kirin would still harm and probably kill the user. You know what I see, as I've seen in a lot of other anime? When the rasengan and kirin connect, instead of breaking a path the size of the rasengan itself, it'll carve a path through the kirin as if it was an unbreakable umbrella of wind element that Naruto was holding out ahead of himself, thus allowing him to go right through it, unharmed. Come on man, you see it too :-P.
Yeah I see it too and it would be incredibly cheesy but I certainly could see Kishimoto doing that, the one problem I have is this unbreakable stuff because Naruto's rasengan isn't that reliable (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/340/006-007/).

They said something about wind being very rare, but uh...I'm almost sure, we've seen more wind users than any other element user. Might've seen more of other elements, but I think as far as user number, we've seen more wind users. Also, Neiji uses wind element.
Yes if I remember correctly we have only seen three people use lightning. Kakashi, Sasuke and Kakuzu but there have been a number of wind users, Naruto, Asuma, Temari, Baki, again Kakuzu. Wind affinity seems like it may be common in the sand village and rightly so.

The full body chidori will be used to counter the Rasenshuriken ???

U think sasuke has too many body parts or something?
You got that the wrong way. Rasenshuriken is what Naruto needs to counter Sasuke's full body chidori.

[Archangel]

I think you're confused Sid

This is the Chidori Nagashi
http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn145/gpx34/GIF194.gif

If Sasuke uses this move to defend himself against the Rasenshuriken we're gonna need another emo antagonist for the show.

[Sidnne]

I think you're confused Sid

This is the Chidori Nagashi
http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn145/gpx34/GIF194.gif

If Sasuke uses this move to defend himself against the Rasenshuriken we're gonna need another emo antagonist for the show.


No, you're confused. I know what Chidori Nagashi is.

You misunderstood my post. I never said Chidori Nagashi would be used to defend against Rasenshuriken. These are both offensive techniques anyway, so he wouldn't be defending against an attack with it.
By "counter" I mean to say the other's converse, not that one would actually be used to negate the other. Although, Naruto did develop it after learning about elemental affinities and discovering that his wind element would be his counter to Sasuke's lightning element.

Its Kishi's symbolic battle between Naruto and Sasuke that has been taking place since the beginning of the series, with the two of them trying out-do or at least match each other.
It began with the tranformation jutsu (at the academy), carried on into chakra control (running up the trees), continued to taijutsu (chuunin examine tournament), and now into the development of jutsus.

You can see it clearly when you look at the origins of the techniques.
First, Sasuke learned Chidori from Kakashi. Naruto then 1-up'd Sasuke with the Rasengan. Both were small, but powerful jutsus, which were contained with one hand and more or less a thrusting technique.

Then the time-jump and the next time Naruto encounters Sasuke, he discovers that Sasuke has a new upgrade to the Chidori, the Chidori Nagashi. Naruto responds by upgrading his Rasengan with the Fuuton Rasengan. Both jutsus were bigger and stronger than the originals with more destructive power, and were only accomplished with the introduction of elemental affinities; lightning vs wind.

Now Sasuke has Kirin, while Naruto is beginning his training with the toads. Kirin, fittingly, is accomplished by Sasuke using the nature energy in the air and atmosphere to produce the massive attack. Which sounds an awful lot like the description of the Sage chakra, wouldn't you say? Therefore it's pretty safe to say that whatever Naruto learns from the sage training will be to keep him on par with Sasuke.

[XanBcoo]

I think Sidnne's got it, but aren't you guys overlooking what will happen when Sasuke gets a hold of the 8 tails?

I know it's impossible to predict exactly what will happen at this point, but is it possible that it will be that "upgrade" which Sasuke will use against Naruto's Sage upgrade?

[Archangel]

?

Sasuke is getting the 8 tails for akatsuki not for himself, at least that's what i think.

I guess he could screw them over but it's unlikely since he needs their power if he wants to attack konoha

[Assertn]

Guys......

I kinda thought it would be obvious ever since the explanation of nature manipulation...
Fire > Wind > Lightning

You do realize the significance of this, right?

Naruto will be able to stop Sasuke's lightning attacks with wind, but Sasuke will be able to stop Naruto's wind attacks with fire. The EXACT reason Kishimoto gave Naruto a wind affinity would be so he could stand up to Sasuke's lightning jutsu...which at the moment appears to be his strong suit.

I guarantee you this paper/rock/scissors correlation will come into play later in the story, no matter how awesome Sasuke's Kirin is.

[Death BOO Z]

Assertn.. if we're on the subject of random energy cycles...

Sasuke has lightning and Fire.
Fire is for Itachi, the crazy, maniac side of the Uchiha.
Lightning is for the 'rational avenger' side of Kakashi.

Naruto's main element is Wind (does he have a 2nd one?)

the wind can defeat the lightning, but it only fuels the fire, pushing him deeper and deeper into the path of itachi.

Naruto and Sasuke can no longer co-exist. Sasuke will never admit that he's equal to Naruto, and the more he is proven otherwise the more he'll seek out reinforcement from outside.

that's just some random nonsense... we need to see less of Sasuke and more of the others...

also, the rock\paper\scissors is simply an excuse for Kishi to turn over the tide of battles and to create more ridiculous powers for each character. he's just being lazy.

[Uchiha Barles]

Its Kishi's symbolic battle between Naruto and Sasuke that has been taking place since the beginning of the series, with the two of them trying out-do or at least match each other.
It began with the tranformation jutsu (at the academy), carried on into chakra control (running up the trees), continued to taijutsu (chuunin examine tournament), and now into the development of jutsus.

You can see it clearly when you look at the origins of the techniques.
First, Sasuke learned Chidori from Kakashi. Naruto then 1-up'd Sasuke with the Rasengan. Both were small, but powerful jutsus, which were contained with one hand and more or less a thrusting technique.

Then the time-jump and the next time Naruto encounters Sasuke, he discovers that Sasuke has a new upgrade to the Chidori, the Chidori Nagashi. Naruto responds by upgrading his Rasengan with the Fuuton Rasengan. Both jutsus were bigger and stronger than the originals with more destructive power, and were only accomplished with the introduction of elemental affinities; lightning vs wind.

Now Sasuke has Kirin, while Naruto is beginning his training with the toads. Kirin, fittingly, is accomplished by Sasuke using the nature energy in the air and atmosphere to produce the massive attack. Which sounds an awful lot like the description of the Sage chakra, wouldn't you say? Therefore it's pretty safe to say that whatever Naruto learns from the sage training will be to keep him on par with Sasuke.

This seems almost right, except that Chidori Nagashi is NOT on the same power level as the Wind Rasengan. The counters are as follows: Naruto learns rasengan to counter chidori. Naruto gains wind element to counter Sasuke's lightning element. Now, the particular wind technique he happened to learn first completely obliterates Chidori Nagashi, Chidori, and any lightning technique Sasuke has with the POSSIBLE (and I'm still going with improbable) exception of kirin. Until we saw kirin, there was nothing in Sasuke's arsenal that even came close to the wind rasengan as far as a non bloodline technique is concerned. In other words, chidori nagashi could probably be countered rather easily by a much less destructive wind technique than the wind rasengan.

I'll agree that Naruto's sage techniques are a counter for Sasuke's ability to make use of chakra from his surroundings. Just, not particularly to counter kirin itself. It'd be a bit overkill just for that.

[Abdula]

Yes it would be overkill but like Assertn said Sasuke's fire techniques should balance (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/333/12/) things out then there is Naruto's ridiculous philosophy (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/333/14/).

?

Sasuke is getting the 8 tails for akatsuki not for himself, at least that's what i think.

I guess he could screw them over but it's unlikely since he needs their power if he wants to attack konoha
Uh Sasuke is getting the eight tails for (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/404/14/) himself (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/404/15/). Onemanga as usual has a bad trans but in another he explicitly says he will give the eight tails to Sasuke and keep the nine for himself.

[Archangel]

Well that's weird... don't they need all of the beasts for their ultimate jutsu?

I wonder if Pain knows about this deal ...

[Abdula]

No they don't whatever it is Madara wants to do he only needs the Kyuubi and little Sasuke.

This doesn't interfere with Pains plan either.If Madara and Sasuke take the nine and eight tails, Pain still has the other seven to use. Besides we still don't know for sure what their goals are.

[The Heretic Azazel]

In that respect, I wonder if we're just supposed to forget that Akatsuki's original goal was to unleash the beasts upon all the countries, and charge their people a shitload of money to contain them.

[Abdula]

Thats my point, if that is Pain's goal "to create a monopoly on war" I believe that is how he phrased it, then he will easily be able to do that using the other seven beasts. The seven Akatsuki already have. Its interesting that Pain's goal is to turn the world back to the way it was before Hashirama founded the leaf village, because back then it was the Senju who basically had a monopoly on war.

[Archangel]

Even so, by the looks of things Tobi is gonna screw Sasuke out of the 8 tails and is getting ready to receive the kyuubi anytime soon

I can't wait untill we get to see both of these techniques again, we need more information on them if we want to continue the discussion.

[Death BOO Z]

we really need to get the akatsuki thing sorted out.. mainly, we need to know the connection of Payne and Madare (tobi\obito\mizukage, whatever name you like), we also need to see whether Zetsu is working for Payne or for Madare, but that's not as important...

[rant about akatsuki]
all the dead ones (plus kisama, minus Itachi) were grunts, they didn't know what they were working for, and merely followed orders (I could complain that we should have seen a backstory for why such fugitive ninjas were working for someone else, but that's beating a dead horse). Itachi probably had suspicions about Madare's plans, but he didn't know all of them, and I don't think he knew much about Payne's plans (he was paired with Kisame, after all).

Orochimaru is a wild card, I find it hard to believe that he knew about Itachi, but not about Madare, though, it's possible that madare had Itachi expel Orochimaru in order to keep their dirty secret safe, and If Payne did beat Salamander, I think that Orochimaru knew about it...
Kabuto also might hold some answers, he was supposedly a spy for Sasori (while being a spy for orochimaru inside the village), but that would imply a prior connection with Sasori (the rest of his spies were sand ninjas), and that might mean he was 'given' to Sasori by another member. So basically, Kabutoro might know something.

key question is what's going on between Madare and Payne.
Payne is recognized as the leader by the grunts, but he seems to be getting orders by Madare, which doesn't fit with his personality. so it's either that he believes in the filthy Uchiha's goals, or that he tries to manipulate Madare into doing something for him (which will of course not work, since madare is a betraying uchiha).

on to the bijuus....
- Madare said he'll give Sasuke a bijuu.
- until now, all the bijuus who have been extracted were taken into the stone statue.

at first, we had nine akatsuki, and nine bijuus, so we thought the akatsuki are just power hungry and want to take a bijuu and double their strength..., we still have nine akatsuki, but now, the plan seems to be failing a bit (the newcomer gets the 2nd strongest demon? what kind of loot dividing is this?), also, the rest of the hawk team don't look much like akatsuki material (not that Sasuke is, but still).
more than that, if they don't care who gets which beast, it means that the past few years were a waste of time for everybody involved, if payne\madare just wanted to power themselves up with a bijuu, then gathering them all would be pretty tiresome opposed to simply grabbing the beast you want and taking it by force. why bother all the buildup?

[/rants about crap, for now]

we need to see more of the akatsuki, let naruto train off-screen for a while, and show us some evil cult plotting

[6Zabuza9]

u realize if sasuke gets the eight tailed beast. the fight between sasuke and naruto will be a cursed seal super sharingan using half bull/octopus with lightning chakra surrounding its whole body vs a kyuubi that looks like a frog. Seems like sasuke has more buffs than naruto

[Marik]

u realize if sasuke gets the eight tailed beast. the fight between sasuke and naruto will be a cursed seal super sharingan using half bull/octopus with lightning chakra surrounding its whole body vs a kyuubi that looks like a frog. Seems like sasuke has more buffs than naruto

To me Naruto will have more buffs. He already has the power that Itachi gave to him, along with his new sage training, his wind beats lightning, and Ibiki has his key. The key to his father's warehouse that contains the other half of his Kyuubi chakra and a jutsu that he wanted his son to complete.

Sasuke is already starting to go blind and has chosen not to take the Eight-tails chakra. So other than Tsukuyomi and Susano to go along his Amaterasu, I don't think we'll be seeing aything from him that Itachi hadn't shown us already. A Naruto with both Ying and Yang vs a Sasuke thats going blind, Naruto will be the victor.

[Uchiha Barles]

Sasuke's "Buffs"

Fire element techniques, lightning element techniques, some unnamed elemental recomposition type, mangekyou sharingan (try not to forget all the powers that comes with, including predicting body motion, some ill-defined skill that was able to extinguish amaterasu, and controlling the kyuubi), techniques using chakra from his surroundings (be they sage techniques or something else), and now possibly the eight tails, which he chose not to take BEFORE he found out he was going blind. He might change his mind about that.

Naruto's "Buff's"

Wind elemental techniques, Sage techniques, Itachi's yet unnamed, undemonstrated power, and the ninetails.

I'm not counting the other buff's you mentioned because I doubt that Naruto is going to get them before he faces off with Sasuke. Right now, it seems that Sasuke has the upper hand in buffs. Even if he chooses not to use the eight tails, his Sharingan has proven to be able to handle bijuu, by "dispelling" the kyuubi inside Naruto, and defeating the 8 tails. He may be going blind by using the skill, but I doubt it's going to actually affect his fight with Naruto to a tide turning degree.

To be fair, we've no clue what power Itachi gave Naruto, and also, the Sage training probably comes with a shitload of abilities. So comparing the two, I say Sasuke looks like he has more power ups because we know more specifically what his powers are. Naruto's powerups, well, we just don't know specifically what they are when it comes to sage training and Itachi's power. I have a feeling Kishimoto doesn't know either, or at least didn't know when he decided to give him Itachi's power, and start the Sage training. He's probably going to manipulate things so that they're basically evenly matched

*snore*

[Marik]

Eh, I don't see Sasuke being that strong in a 1 on1 fight. Killerbee pretty much dismantled Sasuke. If he hadn't sucked on Karin and got cursed seal healing from Juugo, then he wouldn't have even able to get off that Amaterasu. I think Naruto will get his key before he fights Sasuke, most likely after he fights Pain. Sasuke has to deal with the Cloud Trio and whatever the Kages plan before he gets to Konoha. During that time Naruto should get his key.

[Abdula]

He is going to be fighting Naruto and its not like Naruto has a great track record in one on one fights especially against Sasuke. Sasuke on the other hand has a great record in one on one fights and Uchihas are built for one on one combat.

[Uchiha Barles]

I see this series ending with Naruto killing Pein (after his true badassedness is revealed) and Sasuke killing Madara. All this AFTER Sasuke fight's Naruto. Of course Sasuke won't come back to the leaf. He might die, or he might go off into the sunset, maybe start up a new village. The set up of things just seem to be working out nicely for Madara and Pein to be the same "level" of villain. This is as much speculation as you mentioned though, so yeah..eh.

[Abdula]

I like the idea but I really don't see them being the same level. That is not something Kishi does, his villains all have to one up each other. As far as I see it now Pein is on a higher level than Madara, of course Kishi can easily change that but either way its going to be Pein or Madara as the final big bad guy and Kabutoro has to come in somewhere before them.

[Death BOO Z]

I hate sounding like a broken record.

Naruto has no freakin' chance to win against Sasuke right now, and if he did, it would be completely against the backbone of the story.

Naruto winning the final fight through the powers of unknown gifts from strangers? well, excuse me if I think that makes for a shitty story-telling.

Naruto, so far, has only KB and Rasengan to call as respectfully gained abilities, Kyuubi is either too maverick to control, or too weak to make a difference. Sage techniques weren't revealed yet, and he didn't even work hard to get them (he had the nerve to suggest taking the oil with him, so he wouldn't need to master the skill to use it). Itachi's gift and whatever 'light key' the frog is holding are gifts from someone else.
Sasuke, master of taijutsu, chidori, fire jutsu (tons of jutsus he got from Orochimaru, after defeating him in his own court), Sharingan (maybe even forms of super sharingan), and perhaps the 8-tails (he beat the previous host, so he earned it).

the fight will go something like this:
Sasuke: I've gave up on everything I held dear to, I've come to peace with the history of my family, with my brother and with my desire for revenge, I've been to depths of hell and arisen back.
Naruto: That's pretty cool, I've been wasting time in the village, never embarking away on my own, but a lot of people granted me magical powers that activate despite my will. Sasuke: so basically, you got a shitload of HP, and triggered control attacks from people who created them in order for you to kill me? that's kinda cheating, isn't it?
Naruto: yes, it's like everything I've done in the story is moot, since I'll fight you with tools I was practically given by others.

^I'll be back to that in a minute^

Madare is a much bigger villain than Payne. he's older, more sinister, has the most awesome bloodline in the universe (as far as we know, Sharingan is better than Rinngan. and it'll take a lot of creative thinking to get me believe otherwise), and acts like the boss of payne. plus, Payne's weakness (secret) is known to the good guys, but when Itachi used his last breath to attack Madare through Sasuke, Madare brushed it off and said he has more secrets.
Payne, on the other hand, was already 1/6th killed. and seems to be in constant need of medical attention from the freezetubes.

Madare is a much bigger villain.

*back to Naruto and Sasuke*
Sasuke, as said by others, has much more known and influencal buffs. a better track record of 'clean winnings' and all around victories and generally more deserves to win.

like I've said in almost every other 'Naruto is stupid' topic, we need Sasuke out of the story for a few months, and Naruto needs to get a clean, fair training arc, and not just two pages in the background of something bigger happening. not to mention Naruto needs to score a victory against someone who matters, the last time he won was against Kazuko. and that's with 5 friends ganging up, and Kakashi still did most of the work. pathetic.

[Naruto_RNG]

No they don't whatever it is Madara wants to do he only needs the Kyuubi and little Sasuke.

This doesn't interfere with Pains plan either.If Madara and Sasuke take the nine and eight tails, Pain still has the other seven to use. Besides we still don't know for sure what their goals are.
Where did u get that from? dude now you are making up stuff. peins goal is to get all bijus not just up till 7. If that was true then why would he go after naruto, and why would he seal each bijus from lowest to highest?

We don't know for sure wut madara's goals are. Big difference.

Oh btw the only reason madara needs sasuke is because of his eyes, inorder to get control over wut he lost before kyuubi. not the other way around.

[Abdula]

Way to respond to a two month old post dude.


^I'll be back to that in a minute^

Madare is a much bigger villain than Payne. he's older, more sinister, has the most awesome bloodline in the universe (as far as we know, Sharingan is better than Rinngan. and it'll take a lot of creative thinking to get me believe otherwise), and acts like the boss of payne. plus, Payne's weakness (secret) is known to the good guys, but when Itachi used his last breath to attack Madare through Sasuke, Madare brushed it off and said he has more secrets.
Payne, on the other hand, was already 1/6th killed. and seems to be in constant need of medical attention from the freezetubes.

Madare is a much bigger villain.
I'm not buying that at all. First off all we know zip about the Rinnegan so there is no point in trying to compare them. As for Madara he can act like the boss all he wants it doesn't make on damn bit of difference to me until I actually see something from him. Yeah he is older but I wouldn't say he is more sinister because that set up Pein had was just awesome. Killing the man who beat all three of the sannins and not only killing him but his friends, family members and associates as well. That was unbelievable and him being thought of as a god and even the people in his own village not knowing whether he actually exists or not. You could not have a better set up than that for a villain even Orochimaru didn't have it that good. The fact that Kishi ruined all of that and made Pein into some emo douchebag doesn't change my opinion of him, at least not yet. I don't even know why Kishi chose to do that anyway, you would think he got his fill of that with Sasuke.

Madara just came out of nowhere, actually I know exactly where he came from, out of Kishi's ass.

Secondly you talk of Pein's weakness being exposed and frankly we just don't know that, yeah they are eventually going to figure out that the real one isn't there but I don't see how that is going to help them. Its not as if the bodies are all going to all drop dead as soon as some says the real one isn't there and the joke about the tubes doesn't matter because the real one isn't there.

Anyway the real reason I can't buy into Madara is rather simple, he has yet to impress me. Yeah he is supposed to be some big shot ninja but he was always second to Hashirama. He killed his brother and took his eyes to get EMS and even with EMS and the freaking Kyuubi, he still lost to Hashirama. Fast forward, he uses the Kyuubi to attack Konona and again his plans fail because of another Hokage.

Then we get to the most unbelievable part, mister bigshot's plans were put on hold because of Itachi. Yeah thats right Itachi, this guy had to put all his plans on hold just because some broken little Uchiha said so, and he didn't even have what it takes to get Itachi out of the way himself. He had to wait until Itachi, who was dying of some unnamed illness which I'm guessing is TB, died fighting his little brother before he could even think about attacking Konoha again. I should also mention that even with Itachi gone he still doesn't seem like he plans on attacking Konoha himself. he is sending in Pein and then Sasuke is going to make his move.

That gets me to this, if Madara is so powerful why not just collect the bijuu himself why the hell does he need Akatsuki to do the work for him. Why have we seen no offense at all from him, all we've seen is him using his time/space jutsu to protect himself. Anyway this post is getting long so I'll stop now but really I can't get behind a guy who is famous for being second best and whose plans all seem to end in failure, not to mention that we haven't actually seen him fight yet, at least we can say we saw something from Pein.

[Archangel]

I see this series ending with Naruto killing Pein (after his true badassedness is revealed) and Sasuke killing Madara. All this AFTER Sasuke fight's Naruto.

Call me old fashioned but i always like it when the final fight is between the hero and his nemesis.

[Naruto_RNG]

@Abdula
Didn't c the date, but I think all of us knew even 2 months ago wut pein's plan were.

Oh I forgot to post which one would win, I'll say FRS. If kakashi can cut through lightning with chidori, I don't c why wind element rasengan can't.

[Death BOO Z]

Abdula.
Payne and Madare came both from Kishi's ass, Madare at least made sense at some level (there have been speculations of a 2nd shooter in the uchiha massacre), while Payne comes from an unknown time, without any connection to anything.
Madare orders Payne around, at least for now. Madare is the one with connection to the tailed beasts, at least it seems like he has a plan. Payne, on the other hand, wants to show the rest of the people the sadness he feels inside, I assume that he writes poetry about his woe.

the fact that you and me don't understand the weakness doesn't mean a thing, we didn't understand the code writing either. the characters in the story understand, and it figures that eventually "the real one isn't there" will become the ultimate strategy to defeat payne, even if it makes no sense what so ever. Madare's weakness was supposedly known by Itachi, but he couldn't kill him with the triggered amaretsu.

I can't say anything about the 3 years delay of the plan, it never made any sense. and as each chapter passes, it makes less sense.


Ultimately, I'm hoping that there will be another 'villain-level' after this one, the akatsuki had potential to be the final enemies, but they ruined it by dying too quick, and being jerks.

[RasenDori]

i think rasenshuriken is the better of the two justus. kirin has a limited use and requires a set up. once its set up it sure to be an instant kill, but if someone know about the technique before hand a counter is sure to be ready. even if you consider sasuke and naruto using there techniques head to head naruto would have a rasenshuriken ready before sasuke could meet all of the conditions. and supposing that he did, the naruto that would get blasted by kirin would most likely be a kagebunshin decoy.

[Archangel]

Recent developments may warrant a thread revival

With the Rasenshuriken being able to be thrown, are there any Kirin fans who would like to change their vote?

[Naruto_RNG]

lol the way I c it is naruto can just hold the FRS on top of his head, best shield against kirin.

[enkoujin]

Amaterasu would overpower Rasenshuriken in accordance with the elements.

[rockmanj]

I'd say it depends on the accuracy. Sasuke is pretty fast, and Naruto would have to time it correctly. However, with the range expansion and vacuum effect, hmmm...

[Archangel]

Amaterasu would overpower Rasenshuriken in accordance with the elements.

Amaterasu would overpower pretty much anything

Undying flames are one hell of an haxx jutsu


I'd say it depends on the accuracy. Sasuke is pretty fast, and Naruto would have to time it correctly. However, with the range expansion and vacuum effect, hmmm...

I would say that naruto has some decent speed himself when in sage mode

Remember this (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/430/17-18/)?

[SilentSnake]

Kirin needs much preparation, it's pretty much 1-shot jutsu, supposed to be unavoidable and holds immense striking power.

Throwing rasenshuriken can be used more times, does not require long preparation kirin needs, also has got immense striking power. If used correctly (like Naruto uses it now) it is Rasenshuriken hands down IMO.

Kirin being unavoidable is just autoaim, just another Uchiha haxx :P And Itachi basically proved this assumption not true ( imagine Naruto's kage bunshin being struck down by kirin instead of true Naruto cause sharingan can't see which one is real XD )

edit: changed "shit" to "shot". "1-shit jutsu" sounds amusing, though :D

[iMUSTbeTHEdevil]

Recent developments may warrant a thread revival

With the Rasenshuriken being able to be thrown, are there any Kirin fans who would like to change their vote?

I dont even remember how I voted the first time.

[poopdeville]

edit: changed "shit" to "shot". "1-shit jutsu" sounds amusing, though :D

*tries to not imagine Chouji as an Earth element user*

...

*fails*

[Archangel]

I dont even remember how I voted the first time.

Just post your current opinion on the subject then

[iMUSTbeTHEdevil]

Just post your current opinion on the subject then

Can I?! Thanks Archangel! :D

If we are talking Naruto throwing the Rasenshuriken and the Kirin coming down the sky, I would have to go with the Rasenshuriken. Wind does beat Lightning. And I know it has more to do that just the elements, it also has to do with how strong the attack is, the Rasenshuriken has quite a bit of power, but I am unsure how it would hold up against a large scale lightning attack. Especially after considering this (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/346/09/) It is is more like posion that it is anything else. I am not sure how that would work.

[Archangel]

Can I?! Thanks Archangel! :D

If we are talking Naruto throwing the Rasenshuriken and the Kirin coming down the sky, I would have to go with the Rasenshuriken. Wind does beat Lightning. And I know it has more to do that just the elements, it also has to do with how strong the attack is, the Rasenshuriken has quite a bit of power, but I am unsure how it would hold up against a large scale lightning attack. Especially after considering this (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/346/09/) It is is more like posion that it is anything else. I am not sure how that would work.

You're welcome :p

The question isn't which jutsu would win should they meet.
I would think that having the affinity advantage and its monstrous power the rasenshruiken would be the natural winner should that be the case.

Think which jutsu has the most destructive power, range, inability to avoid it, etc.

[iMUSTbeTHEdevil]

You're welcome :p

The question isn't which jutsu would win should they meet.
I would think that having the affinity advantage and its monstrous power the rasenshruiken would be the natural winner should that be the case.

Think which jutsu has the most destructive power, range, inability to avoid it, etc.

If that is the case then I am going to vote Kirin. Not to mention the Rasenshuriken has a major flaw, Naruto has to be in Sage Mode for it not to affect him and if he isnt it hurts him.

[samsonlonghair]

I think Naruto has sage mode down to an art. Even Jiraiya couldn't enter sage mode during battle without the help of those old frogs. Naruto can apply Kage Bushin to Sage Mode. Who would have thought he'd still be relying on Kage Bushin after so many years? Damn lucky that he stole that scroll.

[Spaceaprion]

as far as overall destructive power, that probably goes to kirin, but the Rasenshuriken is a lot more concentrated. In other words, if you get hit by the kirin, your only getting hit by a part of it. On the other hand, if you get hit with Rasenshuriken, your nailed with all of it.

After all, we're talking about a move the 4th and even Jiraiya couldn't master.

The only problem I see is that I don't think Naruto would use the Rasenshuriken on Sasuke. He may use it as a shield, but I don't see him using a kill shot on him.

[poopdeville]

I think Naruto has sage mode down to an art. Even Jiraiya couldn't enter sage mode during battle without the help of those old frogs. Naruto can apply Kage Bushin to Sage Mode. Who would have thought he'd still be relying on Kage Bushin after so many years? Damn lucky that he stole that scroll.

Naruto better thank that Tiger dude.

[darkshadow]

If that is the case then I am going to vote Kirin. Not to mention the Rasenshuriken has a major flaw, Naruto has to be in Sage Mode for it not to affect him and if he isnt it hurts him.

No it only hurts him if he uses it like a normal rasengan, it doesn't cause he throws it now. Though I think the thrown version is a lot less nastier then the close combat version.

Since it just slices like a destructo disc, the close combat version destroys the entire body and causes a huge crater. So it seems that only when the actual rasengan sphere makes contact is when the full power of it is unleashed.

Anyway I would say Naruto, hands down. As he is now, Sasuke is not even a match for Kakashi anymore. He lost his huge chakra pool and powerup device with the loss of the curse seal and he lost the healing ( and prolly some chakra pool) with the sealing of Oro.
So unless his mangekyou has a new sort of special attack ( which it prolly has), Sasuke is in a severe powered down state.
Sure Kirin is powerful, but it might as well just strike a kage bunshin instead. There goes all the time, preperation and chakra for it.

If Killer-bee could one shot him twice, then so can Naruto and Kakashi.

[shinta|hikari]

Let's not forget that Naruto in sage mode can kill people with normal punches (and can lift and throw gigantic summons... LOL), and has an absurdly high amount of defense. Even this alone is enough to allow him to beat Sasuke, even without his own numerous summons and Rasenshuriken.

I do agree that Naruto won't try to one-shot Sasuke at all. After all, he "understands" him now. That will be the severe handicap Naruto will have in case they do battle.

How fast is Rasenshuriken anyway? Pain was able to avoid several without the hax prediction powers of the Sharingan. I think both their special moves are very ineffective against each other. Kirin can fall for a decoy, and Rasenshuriken can be dodged. It will probably be decided by close combat, where Naruto should have an unbelievable edge with Sage mode.

[The Chancellor]

How fast is Rasenshuriken anyway? Pain was able to avoid several without the hax prediction powers of the Sharingan Thank you! Finally someone agrees that it's slow as fuck. And compared to the Kirin, are you kidding me? It's fucking lightning on it's own. It finds the target in the blink of an eye and does it's thing.

[iMUSTbeTHEdevil]

hikari]Let's not forget that Naruto in sage mode can kill people with normal punches[/B] (and can lift and throw gigantic summons... LOL), and has an absurdly high amount of defense. Even this alone is enough to allow him to beat Sasuke, even without his own numerous summons and Rasenshuriken.

I do agree that Naruto won't try to one-shot Sasuke at all. After all, he "understands" him now. That will be the severe handicap Naruto will have in case they do battle.

How fast is Rasenshuriken anyway? Pain was able to avoid several without the hax prediction powers of the Sharingan. I think both their special moves are very ineffective against each other. Kirin can fall for a decoy, and Rasenshuriken can be dodged. It will probably be decided by close combat, where Naruto should have an unbelievable edge with Sage mode.

I thought that he killed that guy with a rasengan to the dome, not just a regular ole punch.

[shinta|hikari]

He can throw and lift gigantic summons... I'm pretty sure he can kill people with his punches.

[Archangel]

The fat payne got the shit kicked out of him by a dodged punch, so yeah i'd say those are some fucking flaming fists of fury right there

[xaoc.]

sword in the ground over top of naruto would redirect all the attack to the ground and naruto would be safe. but naruto doesnt carry swords. so he would defend it the same way he always does.. shadow clones.. x 1000 or he would use cheater sage chakra which would be explained as immune to nature attacks or something prolly for 3 chapters before they would realize they are friends... que sunset and happy ending.

naruto's move is far more powerful. kirin the same move he uses on itachi... ya itachi didnt die from it either.. people die from naruto's

peep need to work off the hardon they have for sasuke.. all he has is the eyes now... and we have seen that eye techniques kill your chakra fast... naruto has almost unlimited chakra and a few but very strong techniques.