Fansubbing - Past, Present and Future

[Buffalobiian]

I came across this while browsing other anime related sites, and found this too good to pass up discussing here. A five part video, 30 minutes in total, by "Otaking", talks about why he thinks modern fansub is unprofessional, and is pretty much trash sub compared to DVDs and professionals.

Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUYlqLlbix0)
Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoJ_BWQ9Kow)
Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFu9lh37X34)
Part 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8oYz1dP0-k)
Part 5 FINAL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ED3HAEjKUl0)

More discussion can be found on randomc (http://randomc.animeblogger.net/2008/06/03/focal-point-fanning-the-fansubbing-flame-war/) and Animesuki (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=66958), but why not discuss it here?

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My comments: From an anime watcher's point of view, I really enjoy the fonts of the (good) fansubs over the more crude and bare ones that we get in his examples. Karaoke effects are also great to watch, especially when they're nicely integrated into the anime.

Of course, Otaking (I'm hesitant to call him this) chooses lots classic examples that we can't help but agree with. But that's why you've got so many different fansub groups. There are those who can do it properly and those who can't (huge drop down TL notes and overly flashy effects, to use his examples.)

You can't argue with many of the examples he chooses, especially his own at the end of the last segment, but really, stuff like Eclipse's Claymore....I don't see anything wrong with tthat.



I could rant more, but let's see what you guys have to say.

[KrayZ33]

Well I agree with the "translators notes"... I just got School Rumble from Ayu-Subs a few days ago, and its impossible to read those without stopping the anime every ~4 minutes. Only to read something like "She's eating a *insert name of sweet food*, very popular in japan" .... well who the fuck cares? I do not.. and
"You want to eat onigiri?" *note: onigiri are rice balls*..... this is so much not needed... just translate it with "you want to eat riceballs?"
well but the translation itsself is still very good in my opinion.. and thats the most important thing about subbing. (no big fonts etc)

And he mentioned very good examples

"Note: bla-bla is a 4 sword-style user"
Translation "I'm a bla-bla- user"

why not
Translation "I'm a 4 sword-style user"

But there were things I disagree with
I've seen so many german-dubbed/subbed Animes here which had signs in japanese and didn't get translated by a side note, so... I often don't get the joke..
The same goes for a parody of a anime which I didn't know.

well it depends on the group you get your fansubs from... it's not like there arn't any "professional" fansubbers out here anymore, like in the past (which he mentioned in the first part)

and the example he has chosen in the end is just too funny, I've NEVER seen a fansub like that before

[Kraco]

What a load of bullshit. While there are bad fansubs out there filled by redundant notes, for sure, there are also excellent fansubs out there that outmatch any DVD I've ever seen. Besides, it's unbelievable the dude makes a 5 part video and doesn't realise fansubbers aren't professional translators paid for the work... If they were pros then they would be working for a company or institution doing what they are paid and told to do, or if it was their own company, what they think would keep bringing people's money in. Yet this fool kept repeating time after time this is not what pros do. Quite a bonehead.

I can't believe he even had the audacity to complain about translated signs. Those are never present on commercial DVDs and it makes zero sense to say they shouldn't be there because the director didn't mean them to be there. Hello? The Japanese probably can read the original ones in Japanese. I think the fool kept forgetting the Japanese can understand Japanese so they don't need translations.

Maybe the author got fired from an anime import company due to a bad market situation and has a grudge againts fansubs thinking they destroyed his job.

Still, I come from a country where the only dubbed stuff on TV or movies are those meant for little children, so all my life I've been reading subtitles, which may make me more resistant to the disruptions they may cause to people who are used to dubs.

[Ryllharu]

I contributed to both randomc and animesuki somewhere, and it was pretty blatant that this guy was just an enormous troll. After he showed up in the animesuki forum and defended himself, it was even more obvious, contractions flying, backpedaling, you name it. Sure...he has a fair amount of credentials (though not listed on his CV, Tofu asked him about them via PMs) but they are all video games. A much wider audience, and therefore totally different styles of translating, requiring a lot more localization.

But a hugely successful troll nonetheless. He had a lot of staff from a lot of different groups flaming him.

Still, there were so many fallacies in this so called "documentary" that it really only proved he didn't do his research, at all. It was far more of a propaganda piece, the kind of things you see in movie theaters, labeled as documentaries, and taking some stab at something or another. There are just so many things wrong with the arguments, I'll list just a few because frankly I can't remember them all anymore.

- He used Pani Poni Dash as an example. It's more fundamental than using the series to emphasize clutter, inconsistent translation guidelines, and subbed notes.
1. He tries to suggest the alternative to putting in notes in the episode (which he considers a distraction) and are best placed in a separate booklet. Guess what? gg Fansubs did just that in the form of pdf notes. They're super extensive, and just what he's looking for. Didn't mention those...did he? Didn't even know they existed. Personally, along with the rest of the community, separated notes are far too much of a distraction, break the immersion, and ruin the experience. Guess why you've never seen separated pdf notes again?
2. What's worse, guess who also subbed on notes? That's right, ADV, who owns the official distribution of Pani Poni Dash in the States. They're softsubs, but according to Otaking, no "professional" would ever do such a thing.
3. Clutter. Otaking complains about it...a lot. Signs labeled in English just underneath in tiny letters, things pasted on the side, etc. he hates them all. But in a later part of the video, he cites that the job of a "professional" is to make their presence unnoticeable, unobtrusive, and as true to the original experience as possible. Does the average watcher of anime know kanji. I sure as hell don't. That little unobtrusive sign that says "Infirmary" or "Class 2-C" underneath the kanji is giving me the same experience as the original audience.

This connects with all the reasons he hates that the suffixes -chan, -san, etc are left untranslated. There is no analog in English, and a lot of the meaning is lost in excluding them. Now, I will agree that the first person pronouns (boku, ore, watashi, etc) are not included, but, there's no way to make them flow in English, so it is an unfortunate sacrifice. By the time you notice they are missing, you should have a fairly appreciable understanding of how the Japanese language works just by absorbing it through watching anime, and then you can enjoy it all the more on your own. Remember that the most important thing according to Otaking is to be "unnoticeable, unobtrusive, and as true to the original experience as possible," and this compromise is the fansubbers doing exactly that.

I suspect his gripe with this is that in video games, his job as a translator is largely focused on text or spoken dialogue, and not signs viewed in the actual game itself, which would be translated and edited by the coders for localization, as it is part of the UI and not part of the script. He may have never seen the original version of the in-game experience, and was rather translating from a transcoded script.

I will agree with his use of Trinity Blood as an example of a lot of what's wrong with certain groups. The liner notes in that series were excessive, often unnecessary, the typesetting and font choice with most of the groups was atrocious, etc. But it was really a confusing, average series anyway.

He uses a crapsub of One Piece (or it may have even been a parody sub done by a more prominent group) as an example.
The first time I ever saw the colorized, enlarged, animated attack names was in the video Otaking produced. I don't watch One Piece, but I sure as hell haven't seen it anywhere else.

He has no idea how fansubbing was done in the old days.
In the animesuki thread, many of the older fansubbers pointed this one out. There were a lot of different ways it was done back then, and quite a few programs available, not just one. In addition, some of the fansubbing wasn't done from laserdisks, it was pulled directly from the VHS and copied to a new one with the subs superimposed over. Granted, these were really terrible...but they existed.

He clearly has no concept of DVD standards.
He complained about how "professional" translators and producers use the plain, uniform, simple text (in yellow, white or green). DVDs have to comply to certain standards to be able to have their subtitles appear on every possible configuration and manufacture of DVD playback hardware. From PCs down to the kind hooked to TV sets to portable players. Fansubs require an easy to download set of codecs or fonts. With .mkv's you can actually set whatever font you want for softsubs. The .ogg format widely used before Matroska used for rips of dvds came with this same "simply plain text" that Otaking loves so much, because they were ripped from the dvds themselves.

Another one pointed out on the animesuki forums:
One of the examples he used for "classic" older titles was in fact, a contemporary fansub group redoing classic titles.
...and according to the person who related this, that particular group was pretty pissed about being included in this video under false pretenses.

He cites Macross 7 as an excellent title
You see that clip of someone playing a guitar in what looks like a cockpit? You're not hallucinating, the plane is being flown by use of guitar. Yeah...that's Macross 7.

....I think that's probably enough for now to discredit this video as an admittedly very well produced, but nevertheless, troll post.

There are a ton more contradictions within the video itself, but as I said, I forgot where most of them are.

[shinta|hikari]

That was some of the most stupid ranting that I have ever heard.

I agree with Kraco on most points, and to add, what he calls to be "distracting" information on a lot of shows (lucky star, Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei) need to be there, simply because it would be incomprehensible without them.

What is wrong with putting Japanese titles or phrases? Fansubs are made for fans. While there are also bad examples where the translators probably just did not know the meaning of the words, most of these words are easily understood by people with even the smallest amount of knowledge of Japanese. And if you do not understand, with the explanations, you will learn. Seriously, what does this guy have against learning more about the Japanese language and culture? All he wants is to dumb it down by removing all cultural reference, which I think is essential to most anime.

I already knew the video is stupid when I saw him write (and say) "There was some anime on TV" instead of "There WERE some anime on TV". God am I glad he is not fansubbing anime. The English language would be just too pitiful if that were the case.

When he noted the "Zetsubou" translation for Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei, he commented that it should have been written as despair. But that was done so that viewers can understand the fact that if Nozomu's name is written horizontally, it would be read differently, with different pronunciation and meaning. He just lost all credibility at that point.

EDIT: Like Ryllharu, I saw tons of false assumptions and illogical conclusions in the video, but most of those are too blatant and do not require mention.

EDIT2: About his senseless rant about fansubbers putting their names on their work... It is precisely because they are fansubbers (and therefore not "professional" or earn money for their effort) that they put those in. They deserve the credit. I personally put my name on my work (be it art or literature), and since that is practically the only concrete reward fansubbers get, that guy should go to hell for complaining about it.

[Ryllharu]

I will admit I agree with his points on leaving excessive amount of phrases untranslated, and the fansubber's defense "claiming" they are part of the experience.

It is a problem, but the groups that do that are considered speedsubs at best, trashsubs by most, and I call them "shitsubs." People with a passing knowledge of Japanese, translating only what they feel like.

I've seen it in manga too (the earlier scans of Skip Beat!, the scans of Salad Days and a few from GTO). It is sloppy work, and very disappointing.

Luckily for us, the overwhelming majority of groups in anime/manga don't do that anymore.

[Board of Command]

I will admit I agree with his points on leaving excessive amount of phrases untranslated, and the fansubber's defense "claiming" they are part of the experience.
I don't know how much "excessive" is, but I do prefer to have a lot of the phrases/terms remain untranslated. Zetsubou Sensei is a good example. I'd much rather see "Zetsubou-sensei" instead of "Mr. Despair." I don't know if that would be considered "excessive."

a.f.k. has a habit of overtranslating in my opinion.

[Kraco]

He uses a crapsub of One Piece (or it may have even been a parody sub done by a more prominent group) as an example.
The first time I ever saw the colorized, enlarged, animated attack names was in the video Otaking produced. I don't watch One Piece, but I sure as hell haven't seen it anywhere else.

One Piece is a bit special case. Kaizoku, which is/was oft considered the highest quality subber, also uses quite fancy subtitles for the names of the attacks / techniques. I guess it might look odd for somebody who hasn't watched the series (like the author of that video), but it probably doesn't for anybody who has diligently followed it. It's that kind of series. While it's no otaku comedy series, it still doesn't take itself too seriously (unlike the author of that video).

To put it simply: the director makes the voice actor pay extra attention to uttering / shouting the name of the technique and the fansubber pays extra attention to subbing it.

[shinta|hikari]

His entire work would have been so much better and more informative, without devolving into absolute stupidity, had I done it.

I hope he gets to read this post so that he understands how fansubbers watching his video feel.

[Ryllharu]

I don't know how much "excessive" is, but I do prefer to have a lot of the phrases/terms remain untranslated.
I suppose someone has to play Devil's Advocate for a while.

I do one better than explaining. I'll post an example. I didn't spend a lot of time looking for it, so there are some significantly worse than this page among the scans of this series.
From Salad Days, volume 1:
http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/8585/sd1410wr4.th.jpg (http://img386.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sd1410wr4.jpg)
As OtaKing said, the translators' favorite phrases are left alone. "Nani yo", "baka" (though anyone should know this one), "Mou" , "Moshi Mosh", etc.

It's all in the context. The same thing does happen in anime, which is why OtaKing actually had some example of this, though I wouldn't call it something that is as pervasive as he claimed. DB used to do it with Naruto when they were just starting out as they learned more Japanese and got better translators. There's absolutely no reason for these phrases to be left untranslated, and it actually can be a huge barrier for someone just getting into anime/manga.

With Salad Days, I was fine because I didn't stumble on it until recently (the last year or so) so I too had a pretty good handle on these common phrase that weren't translated. But someone who was told by their friend (let's say the friend is a hardcore otaku) that this series is really good and they should read it. The person would be completely lost, since they have no knowledge of this.

But back to context. Now Viz owns the rights to Skip Beat! in the States. One particular character is well know for saying "Mo" (Geez) all the time. It leads to her nickname becoming "Moko." Translating the phrase into English wouldn't make any sense, and it would seem like her nickname came out of nowhere. The translator at Viz left the phrase as is up until the point where she was given the nickname, put a note in the back of the volume where she first appears, added phrase not in the original explaining, "Because you say 'Mo' so much." and then resumed translating the phrase into equivalent expressions that are common in English.

This is the kind of practice where the best of both worlds collide. A wide audience instead of only the hardcore otaku's can ease into the series, and it doesn't destroy the context. It's the middleground between OtaKing's argument and the view more common among fansubbers and the long-time viewers of fansubs.

[Board of Command]

I was mostly referring to the common things like name suffixes. I want all names to remain as they are. -san, -chan, -sensei, -sama should all be left alone.

One example of a.f.k. overtranslating was in Lucky Star, where "Kagami-sama" was translated into "Kagami the Great." The whole purpose of that scene was how Konata added the -sama honorific in one line, and translating it to "Kagami the Great" kind of defeats the purpose of the whole scenario.

But like you said, lots of casual anime watchers may prefer the overtranslated version of that scene.

[DDBen]

That whole "documentary" was a complete waste of time.

I'm guessing the anime that was recently resubbed was Tekkaman Blade being those are certainly not the old school subs.

I made the mistake of checking his other video's and he did very similar things with Dr Who. The Old Vs the New and made several blatantly incorrect claims.

As for the trolling of Kaizoku in particular on his part I found that to be completely absurd. Seriously those guys even have tons of bonus translators notes on their web page as to not overly clutter episodes and let you learn about other things. The attack founts and only translating the attack name in a note the first time its used is one of many things I personally really like about the subs.

Anyway enough said this guy already wasted enough of my life.

[masamuneehs]

i stopped when he started using "professionalism" as a point against fansubbers.

fansubber. definition. a fan who is not paid to produce a subtitled translation.

and, as noted, most of the shit is the fault of language barriers and original creators, not the people who try to bridge those language barriers and are forced to deal with the idiocies of the original creators.

But I do fully agree that some notes at the top of a scene are useless, and annoying when they force you to pause the video to read them. However, aside from attached notes (which most people won't read, even if they're idiots for not reading them), there are only two options: keep the note on screen long enough for people to read (only advisable when there isn't much text to read in the actual translation), or putting a note in the opening (for important translation notes that aren't spoilers. ie, ABC no XYZ Style is a 4 Sword Style used by members of the ABC group of samurai), or in the closing (ie. onigiri is triangular "rice ball" that wraps the seaweed around the rice only when the packaging is opened, so as to preserve freshness. A cheap food available in every Japanese convenience store).

Notice that now you actually have a better idea of what onigiri is when you can read the notes at the end (on a screen with the fansubbers' info/logo, just for self-whoring).

But, yeah, small translations of signs should always be on screen. There's no sense in not translating it (especially when it sets a scene), and, well, there is no way around having to read the actual on-screen text and all those small translations. It's subtitles. That's what happens, you have to read alot.

I wonder what he'd say about Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei...

[Buffalobiian]

I wonder what he'd say about Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei...

Go on and you'll find out. :)

Pretty much everything is a load of crap besides the shitty subs he mentions that are overloaded and overflashy.

[shinta|hikari]

Another thing that would be lost if fansubbers start following this guy's ideas is the wordplay usually found in anime. It simply does not translate, and requires explanation. Finding equivalents in English is simply not enough, and greatly lessens the enjoyment one can gain from the show, particularly if the show's main selling point is its wit.

[GurrenLagann]

I don't know about you guys but I agree with this man 100%. I get sick and tired of useless TL, stupid honorifics and how many fansubbers like to stroke their epeen to show supremacy over others. Macross 7 was fantastic, theres nothing wrong with a Guitar piloting a Fighter, hell he have Luffy expanding his body for one of the stupidest reasons ever known to man, and it's not okay to have Basara pilot with a guitar? Honest Macross 7 is a work of art, maybe people shouldn't take it so seriously. I guess bad Fansubbing is the price people pay for piracy. It's just my opinion anyways.

[KrayZ33]

uhm you don't have to read bad fansubbs at all... the only bad fansubbers are actually "speed-subs" like your-dad or something.... eclipse/gg/db (i know the last 2 are speedsubs too but high quality)/aone etc are all better than those on DVDs.

so if you can wait, then there is no problem

and i think honorifics are actually *very* important...tells me alot of things about certain character-relationships which I would normally filter out since I'm not listening to what they say in japanese but "how" they say it. (calm voice, angry voice...)
For example: I'm watching school rumble at the moment and the honorifics are changing constantly and when someone adds -kun, -san or just name (which I only read in the subtitle) it helps me to understand what that person thinks of the other one.

[shinta|hikari]

@GL - Why is half your post about Macross 7? I don't see how it has anything to do with your point.

[BioAlien]

Why is he complaining so much about TL notes?
I pause from time to time to read the text anyway because it goes too fast sometimes, so pausing to read the notes to actually understand what the hell the character's action mean is no problem to me.

[Silvanas]

I was mostly referring to the common things like name suffixes. I want all names to remain as they are. -san, -chan, -sensei, -sama should all be left alone.

No, they are only there because ITS RUDE to NOT have them there in Japanese, unless you are VERY familiar with a person, you can change the way of showing affection easily by playing with the word structure, you don't need to have "big brother name" you can ignore the big brother part unless its important to the story or the character.


One example of a.f.k. overtranslating was in Lucky Star, where "Kagami-sama" was translated into "Kagami the Great." The whole purpose of that scene was how Konata added the -sama honorific in one line, and translating it to "Kagami the Great" kind of defeats the purpose of the whole scenario.

In what way? would it not work as if she was saying the line then saying "Kagami the great" one time, you may say something like "No one can disagree with X person the great" as a sarcastic way of speaking, with a little work IT CAN TRANSLATE.


But like you said, lots of casual anime watchers may prefer the overtranslated version of that scene.

You mean the properly translated one? because I'm pretty sure university professors, experts on the subject are the ones who study this and all of them come to the conclusion that you should translate it into the native language of the viewer as much as possible, even if it means rewording things to make it flow better, last time I checked, these are the people I should listen to, maybe I should stop listening to Stephen Hawking and start listening to some dude who "knows a little science"


EDIT2: About his senseless rant about fansubbers putting their names on their work... It is precisely because they are fansubbers (and therefore not "professional" or earn money for their effort) that they put those in. They deserve the credit. I personally put my name on my work (be it art or literature), and since that is practically the only concrete reward fansubbers get, that guy should go to hell for complaining about it.

So you don't think its insulting to display the fansub groups name bigger than the companies name? bigger than the shows name? and above the whole cast and crew's names in the credits? if anything a small note at the end of the credits and in the corner of the OP is more than enough, anything more is egotistical, they still get the same amount of credit, this all breaks down to e-peen.


The same goes for a parody of a anime which I didn't know.

I doubt you know every single reference in a comedy show you watch on terrestrial television, if you haven't seen the show that is being referenced or parodied then you don't get the joke, if you are watching a series full of jokes you need explaining to you, you are not the intended audience, if its one or 2, its the same as not knowing what is being parodied in a comedy movie, its not the end of the world but you would appreciate the joke more if you knew.


There are parts of his argument that can go both ways, the whole superimposing English onto the picture for example, yes you could view it as insulting to the artists, such as adding to a painting, however the space is blank and there is nothing going on there making it easier too read, however such as in the scene with the book, a disappearing note would be better, because it just looked ugly.

The whole Zetsubo thing could go either way too.


My comments: From an anime watcher's point of view, I really enjoy the fonts of the (good) fansubs over the more crude and bare ones that we get in his examples. Karaoke effects are also great to watch, especially when they're nicely integrated into the anime.

However all the big names and experts agree the best translation provides an experience as close to that the original audience had as possible, they did not see a bunch of brightly coloured distracting karaoke over their scenes, therefore in a good translation there wouldn't be any special karaoke, if the director didn't put a bunch of Karaoke over his scene it shouldn't be there, you can say "I enjoyed X" while X could have been really bad from a technical point of view, you liked it, it doesn't make it good, it just means you liked it.

The subtitles should not catch your eye, they should be as subtle as possible while still being easily read, this is what all the experts agree on.



and the example he has chosen in the end is just too funny, I've NEVER seen a fansub like that before

That's the point, its basically what a fansub would be like, if they stopped with the hypocrisy of not translating some things and translating others, he said it himself, the words at the end of a sentence can reflect a lot, age, anger, familiarity, ect, as can ways of saying you, I and a lot of other things, the English language equivalents of this would be the way older people speak compared to newer people, how you speak when you are angry, ect.


Finding equivalents in English is simply not enough, and greatly lessens the enjoyment one can gain from the show, particularly if the show's main selling point is its wit.

A severe test of a translators skill, many times it can be, other times (rare) it can't.

Its all down to making use of the language to convey the same message, the English language doesn't follow the same rules as Japanese, so you have to adjust it to fit properly, you change the way something is said slightly, you replace oneesama/oniisama with their name, or some other equivalent to fit the situation, there are times when leaving something intact (such as Daimyo if the story is set in feudal Japan) would be acceptable, because its set in Japan, but something not set in Japan, where the characters aren't even speaking Japanese really should not have any Japanese words, honorific or titles left in.


doesn't realise fansubbers aren't professional translators paid for the work.

He does realize this, however he works under the mentality"If a job is worth doing, its worth doing right" if a fansubber doesn't work under that mentality fine, that's their choice, but it doesn't mean their product is good, it just means they choose not to make it good.


Just a quick note, you don't use learning stuff as defence, because you aren't supposed to be getting a Japanese language/culture lesson, you aren't supposed to be watching it to learn, if you are, you are either a Japanese student reinforcing their knowledge of the language (not some dude who wants to learn, you already know enough to understand a lot of it yourself but not all or you need some reinforcing, linguistics students do this sort of thing,) you are not the intended audience, you are not getting the same experience as the original audience, the translation is bad. If you want to learn you read a non-fiction book, or watch a documentary or something, you don't watch a cartoon, you may learn something because you read a book on Japanese culture and you saw it in an anime which helped you understand it better, that's great if that happens in fact, but you aren't watching the shows to learn.

[Kraco]

He does realize this, however he works under the mentality"If a job is worth doing, its worth doing right" if a fansubber doesn't work under that mentality fine, that's their choice, but it doesn't mean their product is good, it just means they choose not to make it good.

And what exactly is right or good? The whole premise is wrong. You and the author of the video start from the assumption the commercial DVDs are the perfection and then move on to list any differences from them as faults. Fansubs aren't commercial subs and don't need to have anything in common with them, or any professors from the 70's revealing ancient Chinese wisdom about the art of translation.

Fansubbers do fansubs for fun or personal training, and they do them for the other fans who can't sufficiently understand the Japanese language straight from the TV or raws. They are perfectly free to assume the audience has an interest in Japanese, and thus might be willing or has already learned a few Japanese words and customs. They aren't selling the fansubs in shops where some random joe from the streets might buy it and then curse how there appears Japanese words on his screen.

This is the exact reason why it's appropriate so say the author of the video hasn't realised he's not talking about some wannabe-commercial subs but something totally different.

[KrayZ33]

No, they are only there because ITS RUDE to NOT have them there in Japanese, unless you are VERY familiar with a person, you can change the way of showing affection easily by playing with the word structure, you don't need to have "big brother name" you can ignore the big brother part unless its important to the story or the character.


So why not just leave the honorifics after a name and shorten the sentence?
instead of making the senteces 1-6 words longer than it should be? Its difficult enough to read fast enough AND get the scene this way.



Its all down to making use of the language to convey the same message, the English language doesn't follow the same rules as Japanese, so you have to adjust it to fit properly, you change the way something is said slightly, you replace oneesama/oniisama with their name, or some other equivalent to fit the situation, there are times when leaving something intact (such as Daimyo if the story is set in feudal Japan) would be acceptable, because its set in Japan, but something not set in Japan, where the characters aren't even speaking Japanese really should not have any Japanese words, honorific or titles left in.


ya change the way its said...
example: Rozen Maiden - Suiseseki
Japanese: "Come and help me ~desu" (natuarlly its said in japanese)
and you know how they translate this sentence in the manga which came out here?
English: "Come and help me, yes!"



He does realize this, however he works under the mentality"If a job is worth doing, its worth doing right" if a fansubber doesn't work under that mentality fine, that's their choice, but it doesn't mean their product is good, it just means they choose not to make it good.

who is he to decide whats wrong or right? In my opinion its bullshit and WRONG to leave honorifics out and thats what they did with NGE... actually whenever shinji speaks to/about Misato it must be translated all the time with "ms. misato"
and because he still says this even though they are living in the same house and know each other very good he still says "ms misato" and that says something about his character, doesn't it? back then however I didn't care about that because I didn't know what this means anyways... (which is the reason why DVD-subs don't have honorifics btw...)



Just a quick note, you don't use learning stuff as defence, because you aren't supposed to be getting a Japanese language/culture lesson, you aren't supposed to be watching it to learn, if you are, you are either a Japanese student reinforcing their knowledge of the language (not some dude who wants to learn, you already know enough to understand a lot of it yourself but not all or you need some reinforcing, linguistics students do this sort of thing,) you are not the intended audience, you are not getting the same experience as the original audience, the translation is bad. If you want to learn you read a non-fiction book, or watch a documentary or something, you don't watch a cartoon, you may learn something because you read a book on Japanese culture and you saw it in an anime which helped you understand it better, that's great if that happens in fact, but you aren't watching the shows to learn.

Thats exactly why DVD- subs don't have honorifics but fansubs do...

DVD-subs are made for the WHOLE audience, even those who have never seen an anime in their whole life, they don't want to ****BUY**** something they don't understand... fansubbs are basically made for fans, its even written down in most fansubbs.. "subbed by fans for fans"

If nobody had told me what exactly ~desu means I would never think that its some way to say something very polite or in a more cute way..
If I read "help me, yes!" "let's do it, yes" "stop it,yes!" I would think something totally different from the character.
so not only they change the meaning, it even makes the whole sentence wrong AND the important part, it changes the personality of a character which is in my opinion as a fan who learned quite much about japanese-culture and behavior by watching fansubs.

So... who again can decide its wrong or right to sub it this way?

ah and btw... I'm not too sure about that but I think [NF] used the DVD subs from Rebuild of Evangelion but those have -kun etc in it too.

[NF] doesn't translate in english normally and I downloaded the DVD subs from somewhere and they were the same (if i did load them right)
well, BoC could check that because he has those subs if I remember correctly

[shinta|hikari]

No, they are only there because ITS RUDE to NOT have them there in Japanese, unless you are VERY familiar with a person, you can change the way of showing affection easily by playing with the word structure, you don't need to have "big brother name" you can ignore the big brother part unless its important to the story or the character.

Its not just that. The titles themselves can mean something that is integral to the story and characters, like the word Senpai, which does not really translate to English, but has a whole host of meanings and implications, especially in terms of how one interacts and treats that person.



You mean the properly translated one? because I'm pretty sure university professors, experts on the subject are the ones who study this and all of them come to the conclusion that you should translate it into the native language of the viewer as much as possible, even if it means rewording things to make it flow better, last time I checked, these are the people I should listen to, maybe I should stop listening to Stephen Hawking and start listening to some dude who "knows a little science"

This is why I pity people who tend to drown in "expert" opinion enough not to be able to judge for themselves. If you wish to reason it out, give points. Don't just say that the experts say so and therefore they are correct. The experts being quoted in that video may not have even been using the same source material, and they may have said that thinking of some other medium or example completely.




So you don't think its insulting to display the fansub groups name bigger than the companies name? bigger than the shows name? and above the whole cast and crew's names in the credits? if anything a small note at the end of the credits and in the corner of the OP is more than enough, anything more is egotistical, they still get the same amount of credit, this all breaks down to e-peen.

Err, so what if it is egotistical? That was the entire point of what I said. They do it for free, why should you care if they put their name there. It is not like it appears constantly on the screen and disrupts the enjoyment of the show.


However all the big names and experts agree the best translation provides an experience as close to that the original audience had as possible, they did not see a bunch of brightly coloured distracting karaoke over their scenes, therefore in a good translation there wouldn't be any special karaoke, if the director didn't put a bunch of Karaoke over his scene it shouldn't be there, you can say "I enjoyed X" while X could have been really bad from a technical point of view, you liked it, it doesn't make it good, it just means you liked it.

Here we go about the experts again. So what an "expert" or a big name says is right? Experts can disagree, and just because the ones quoted do agree does not mean any other points of argument are invalid. Going with the expert opinion just because it is the "expert" opinion only shows a lack of ability to defend one's views.



That's the point, its basically what a fansub would be like, if they stopped with the hypocrisy of not translating some things and translating others, he said it himself, the words at the end of a sentence can reflect a lot, age, anger, familiarity, ect, as can ways of saying you, I and a lot of other things, the English language equivalents of this would be the way older people speak compared to newer people, how you speak when you are angry, ect.

It is extremely arrogant to think that anything can be translated to English. What your statement implies is that with a bit of effort, Japanese (which is extremely different from English, duh) can completely be converted, which is simply not the case.


A severe test of a translators skill, many times it can be, other times (rare) it can't.

It is not as rare as you think. If you think so, you do not watch enough anime. Wordplay is extremely common in anime, mainly because it is part of Japanese humor. Wordplay (at least most) cannot translate. An example would be the latest release of Spice and Wolf ep 7. Yaku is to bake and to be jealous in Japanese. Good luck converting that into English.



He does realize this, however he works under the mentality"If a job is worth doing, its worth doing right" if a fansubber doesn't work under that mentality fine, that's their choice, but it doesn't mean their product is good, it just means they choose not to make it good.

He uses the wrong term over and over then. Please read the definition of "professional" so that you understand. It is also a very limited and selective view, since a lot of fansubs, and many will attest to this, do a great job, both in technical aspects and in the translation itself. In everything there are bad examples. Only sticking to those to prove your point while ignoring the rest is simply foolish and biased.



Just a quick note, you don't use learning stuff as defence, because you aren't supposed to be getting a Japanese language/culture lesson, you aren't supposed to be watching it to learn, if you are, you are either a Japanese student reinforcing their knowledge of the language (not some dude who wants to learn, you already know enough to understand a lot of it yourself but not all or you need some reinforcing, linguistics students do this sort of thing,) you are not the intended audience, you are not getting the same experience as the original audience, the translation is bad. If you want to learn you read a non-fiction book, or watch a documentary or something, you don't watch a cartoon, you may learn something because you read a book on Japanese culture and you saw it in an anime which helped you understand it better, that's great if that happens in fact, but you aren't watching the shows to learn.

That was not a defense, as you so perceive it. My point there is that it is not too difficult to actually learn a bit of Japanese language and culture, especially since it will make the experience a lot richer. If you do not want to do this, then DO NOT FUCKING DOWNLOAD AND WATCH FREE FANSUBS. Sorry for the outburst but someone had to say it. No one is forcing you to watch it, and following your line of reasoning in one of your points above, just because it does not match you taste does not mean it is wrong.

[Ryllharu]

@GL - Why is half your post about Macross 7? I don't see how it has anything to do with your point.
Because OtaKing mentioned it as an example of excellent anime, and I subsequently panned it.

Macross 7 was fantastic, theres nothing wrong with a Guitar piloting a Fighter, hell he have Luffy expanding his body for one of the stupidest reasons ever known to man, and it's not okay to have Basara pilot with a guitar? Honest Macross 7 is a work of art, maybe people shouldn't take it so seriously. I guess bad Fansubbing is the price people pay for piracy. It's just my opinion anyways.
Sorry, Macross 7 sucks. There's really no if's and's or but's about it. Macross 7 seems very much like an attempt to cash in quick on the franchise.

The plot is infantile, a sad derivative of SDF-1's. "Protodevlin" are little more than a demonic spin of the Zentradi, in an attempt to make a new villain that covers both feel of facing a race of giants and a phantom of the Protoculture. They are even blatantly described as an evil vampire version of the Zentradi.

Another trademark of a crappy cash-in series, one of the main characters is the to one of the major characters in SDF. I'm referring to Mylene being the [I]youngest (another key element in the spinoff forumla) daughter of Milia Fallyna Jenius (Zentradi giantess in SDF).

Combine that with a stupid gimmick. "Let's fly a plane with a Guitar Hero controller!"
and he doesn't attack the enemy with weapons, choosing instead to fire speaker pods into enemy mecha, and playing his songs to the enemy.
....anyway, what possible justification for creating this might there be? I don't know, what's the other big franchise in Japan that involves mecha, and as usual would be watched by many people? I know, G Gundam! (http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=anime&aid=915). They both ran from 1994 into 1995, with G Gundam starting 6 months prior to Macross 7. Either it was a trend to come up with ridiclous control schemes, or Macross 7 felt it had to compete with the holographic-whatever-they-called-it-cockpit that G Gundam used with it's special control suits, etc.

The sheer absurdity of controlling a highly maneuverable machine (far more than most Gundams, being based off a fighter plane) and especially seeing what Isamu Dyson in Macross Plus was able to do in the YF-19, prototype of the Valkyrie, with the standard controls and even trying to imagine that any of that fancy flying would be achievable in a VF controlled by a guitar controller makes me queasy.

Macross 7 is a stain on the franchise that usually takes itself very seriously, has considerably more mature character development (read: sexual situations) than Gundam, pulls no punches, and does not hesitate to kill when they have to. Macross 7 is the Gundam SEED of Macross (and for fans of SEED, I mean all the parts you hate about it).

[Yukimura]

I have to agree with the majority of posts here, as I watched this guy's videos (I only made it to the middle of Part 3 before losing interest) all I kept thinking was that he was coming down on fansubbers for not catering to the whims of people who probably don't watch anime in the first place. What linguistics experts think 'should' be done in terms of translation has no bearing on what individual fans might actually want.

This guy defines 'good' subbing practices as those which would be approved of by the 'experts' in the fields of translation and such. While that sounds very nice, following what experts say because they are 'experts' in a subjective arena like this is stupid. Their 'expertise' is just their agreement on an ultimately arbitrary set of standards that the 'council of experts' came up with and maintains with no regard for how average people might actually feel. For science the opinions of average people don't really mean anything, however for entertainment I think they might be a bit important.

Let's look at an easy example. The film that won the Oscar for best picture in 2006 (The Departed) came in 15th (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/yearly/chart/?yr=2006) in total box office revenue for films opening that year. All the people who voted with their wallets for 14 other movies ahead of 'The Departed' are apparently wrong because they didn't agree with the assessment of the 'experts' on what was 'good'. I do make the assumption that being 'good' implies people will prefer it over other things that are not 'good' but if the 'goodness' of entertainment has no impact on how effective it is what purpose does it serve? To make an even more obscure analogy, Galileo and Copernicus were considered wrong by the 'experts' in the field of Astronomy because they had ideas (backed by observations no less) that the experts didn't agree with and so their ideas were 'bad'. Box office figures aren't nearly as objective as repeatable observational experiments but they are less subjective than "This is hard for uneducated people to grasp, therefore it's 'good'"

If anime translation was a hard scientific process like changing from meters to feet then there would be a right and a wrong way to go about it and expertise would come from knowledge of the right way. However, entertainment and translation both involve too much fuzziness and are more art than science. To use an example from these videos, Picasso's works were initially criticized by experts as well. 'Experts' define quality, however the same painting can go from bad to good with nothing but a change in the 'experts'. To me this seems like evidence that 'good' and 'bad' are arbitrary labels assigned using the opinions of the current oligarchy of 'experts'.

Fortunately, despite what any number of 'experts' think translation should be the only thing that actually matters is what the viewers of the translation prefer. If fansubs are 'bad' yet anime DVD's with 'good' subtitles (and the illegal rips of the same ) continue to be unpopular maybe producers will start incorporating some of the 'bad' practices of fansubbers in order to make money. I'm sure the experts will line up against this but I don't think they're going to offer to pay the bills at any anime distributors so they can shove it up their 'expert' asses.

[Silvanas]

Ok just to answer all the "who is to say what is right" questions, every time I said good or right in my post, I mean right/good according to everyone that has sat down and studied this matter, I do not know of anyone in translation studies that came to the conclusion that giving the new audience a different experience than the original one is a good idea, or that leaving anything in the native language of the medium is a good idea, when a lot of people do research and come to the same conclusion, I think its safe to say that its right or at least is the strongest position.

Its like, you could watch an amazingly good movie and not enjoy it, just like you can watch an amazingly bad movie and enjoy it, that doesn't mean that one isn't better than the other, but it means you liked it.



It is extremely arrogant to think that anything can be translated to English. What your statement implies is that with a bit of effort, Japanese (which is extremely different from English, duh) can completely be converted, which is simply not the case.

You don't have to be literal, you just have to convey the same message, if you can't find anything in the English language that can make the line mean the same thing then you try to reword the lines before and after slightly, to suggest that the English language can't do that suggests that Japanese is better, which is not the case, no language is better.



Its not just that. The titles themselves can mean something that is integral to the story and characters, like the word Senpai, which does not really translate to English, but has a whole host of meanings and implications, especially in terms of how one interacts and treats that person.

Then you work with that and turn it into the way its spoken, you make the way they speak more polite, ect, the same effect can be achieved without the need to say senior or something to that effect a lot.


This is why I pity people who tend to drown in "expert" opinion enough not to be able to judge for themselves. If you wish to reason it out, give points. Don't just say that the experts say so and therefore they are correct. The experts being quoted in that video may not have even been using the same source material, and they may have said that thinking of some other medium or example completely.


I can judge for myself, however diasagreeing with people who have done research onto the subject, have discussed it with their peers and all come to the same conclusion, surely that means something, again I do disagree with the results of some research in some fields, translations studies happens to not be one of them, I agree that the product you view should be as close as possible to what the original audience saw, that as much as if possible should be converted to the native language of the new viewer, so on and so fourth. I'm not saying that its not ok to like what fansubbers do, I'm just saying that it isn't good according to people who spent years researching the subject, if you want to take this up with them I'm sure they will be able to present you with an entire thesis of reasoning behind it which I can't because I don't do translation studies.


Here we go about the experts again. So what an "expert" or a big name says is right? Experts can disagree, and just because the ones quoted do agree does not mean any other points of argument are invalid. Going with the expert opinion just because it is the "expert" opinion only shows a lack of ability to defend one's views.

In this field, they all basically agree, there are slight differences in their theories however they all share many common traits, simple text that doesn't catch your attention,as much as possible in your native language as possible, wordplay is converted as much as possible but left in if absolutely can't be converted, any and all suffixes in the original should be converted in such a way that they are converted into your native language without losing their meaning, often though the way a character speaks to a person.

Ok I'm gonna go off this line here because.



It is not as rare as you think. If you think so, you do not watch enough anime. Wordplay is extremely common in anime

I don't see it but I watch a lot of sci-fi anime where it doesn't really come up a lot.


Macross 7 is a stain on the franchise that usually takes itself very seriously

This is Macross, you realize the official explanation behind why Max doesn't seem to age is "He's so awesome he doesn't age." Shōji Kawamori (Macross' creator) doesn't take Macross seriously, he thinks its a fun show that has some serious things going on, he LOVES Macross 7, Macross is not a serious show, it does some serious things but overall its pretty trippy but overall its fun, if you want serious business mecha go watch VOTOMS.


Macross 7 is the Gundam SEED

I'd say its the G Gundam of Macross, goes out and has more fun with stuff while being over the top and being awesome.


Anyway, this is all opinion, you can agree with the experts and that's perfectly fine, but its also perfectly fine to say "I like this more" I personally agree with the experts on some fronts, however I do believe that some exceptions should exist, specifically with the use of titles and wordplay providing the setting is Japan, but everyone is allowed their own opinion are they not? but I just want to clarify that every time I say good or right, I mean from a technical point of view as established by respectable researchers, I am bias towards their point of view I will admit.

[Yukimura]

So basically the 'experts' are a bunch of people who studied how random schmucks reacted to translations of stuff and then noticed that the majority of said random schmucks preferred to be spoon fed everything in their own language rather than needing to learn anything about the cultural context that gave birth to the original material. If they did research I assume they showed people different styles of translation to laymen and compared how well the material was recieved by the test subjects. I'm guessing they found that any references to the original culture tended to make the random schmuck test subjects unhappy and thus concluded that references to the original culture should always be avoided when translating. Then since they all used random schmucks to test and al got similar results they got togeather and agreed that to make the largest number of people happy (AKA to appeal to the lowest human denominator) XYZ should be done/not done.

Since there are far more people who would rather remain ignorant then there are people who are either knowledgeable enough or interested enough to seek out the knowledge necessary to understand nuances of Japanese culture on their own I can see where the "doing it for the schmucks is the 'right' way" mentality comes from. No truly random sample of people from a particular culture will contain enough members interested in any given other culture to produce data that would suggest hundreds of thousands of people happly download 'bad' Naruto fansubs every week rather than not do so because of the badness of the translation efforts. Not enough people in the world care enough about anyone but themselves to learn about any other culture than their own in the process of viewing entertainment, even if that entertainment was originally intended for other audiences.

Basically fansub fans are like the Academy and DVD sub fans are like the average Joes who buy movie tickets. The Academy judges based on its own standards of quality which are different from the average persons and do not select for the same thing the average joe's select for. The average person does not care about the level of detail the fansub fan is forced to care about by the nature of the medium. To those people who don't care about the details I would say the same thing the Academy says, good riddance n00bs. If someone else wants to cater to their laziness then more power to them. But I don't mind having to learn in order to enjoy something exotic and I think those who do mind should just go play in their sandboxes with their DVDs.

And for the record, anyone who could enjoy a show like Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei or Lucky Star directly translated into English with no notes, no translations of any kind for the on screen text, and no understanding of Japanese language or culture must have the most amazing sense of humor ever.

[shinta|hikari]

Ok just to answer all the "who is to say what is right" questions, every time I said good or right in my post, I mean right/good according to everyone that has sat down and studied this matter, I do not know of anyone in translation studies that came to the conclusion that giving the new audience a different experience than the original one is a good idea, or that leaving anything in the native language of the medium is a good idea, when a lot of people do research and come to the same conclusion, I think its safe to say that its right or at least is the strongest position.

And this is why I think you are a fool. Have you not read the posts of everyone before (and after) you?


You don't have to be literal, you just have to convey the same message, if you can't find anything in the English language that can make the line mean the same thing then you try to reword the lines before and after slightly, to suggest that the English language can't do that suggests that Japanese is better, which is not the case, no language is better.

There are cases when that is not possible. I even gave an example of wordplay to show this. You are severely underestimating the differences in language here. On the second part, I never said or implied such a thing. Just because something cannot translate does not mean one language is superior. The same can be said for English to Japanese translations. There are tons of expressions that I know will not translate properly. Language is intimately connected with culture and meaning. Are you trying to say we can simply separate both since viewers did not watch it with intent to learn anything about the culture? What happened with keeping the original experience?


I can judge for myself, however diasagreeing with people who have done research onto the subject, have discussed it with their peers and all come to the same conclusion, surely that means something, again I do disagree with the results of some research in some fields, translations studies happens to not be one of them, I agree that the product you view should be as close as possible to what the original audience saw, that as much as if possible should be converted to the native language of the new viewer, so on and so fourth. I'm not saying that its not ok to like what fansubbers do, I'm just saying that it isn't good according to people who spent years researching the subject, if you want to take this up with them I'm sure they will be able to present you with an entire thesis of reasoning behind it which I can't because I don't do translation studies.

Then you are a drone. You do not even know the content and reasoning behind their studies and you agree with them? Even to the point of using it as evidence for your points? This is exactly what it means to take the "expert" position for its own sake, and I believe you have been attacked more than enough on this point by now for even you to comprehend it.

I also mentioned this earlier, but I will put it in simple terms so that you may address it if you wish. Are these experts talking about anime? Translation is a broad field, and differences can arise (yes, even opposing views) depending on what is being tackled. Just because it applies to french novels does not mean it applies to Japanese anime.

Times change. Its 2008. Global and intercultural exchanges have become much more common than let's say a decade ago (and I believe these experts' quotes are from before that at least). Have you (or Otaking) not stopped to think that this change may be mainly due to the change in global cultural climate rather than the "ineptness" of fansubbers? Just because some are averse to change does not make it negative.


I don't see it but I watch a lot of sci-fi anime where it doesn't really come up a lot.

And sci-fi anime is a small percentage of anime out there. Before you speak about it, please do your research. I am starting to think you and Otaking are related or something.


Anyway, this is all opinion, you can agree with the experts and that's perfectly fine, but its also perfectly fine to say "I like this more" I personally agree with the experts on some fronts, however I do believe that some exceptions should exist, specifically with the use of titles and wordplay providing the setting is Japan, but everyone is allowed their own opinion are they not? but I just want to clarify that every time I say good or right, I mean from a technical point of view as established by respectable researchers, I am bias towards their point of view I will admit.

I said this before to Yuki. There is no right or wrong opinion, but there is a better or worse one. Just because you escape by pulling this on a topic you are losing does not mean you can degrade our valid arguments and associate them with our preferences alone. That italicized line right there already shows how immature your arguments are. but it is a good thing that you admitted it in the end. At least this can end here.

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot to mention that you did not even notice (in other words ignored) the point about the selection of anime in the video. It was definitely biased, and the claim at the start that 90 percent of anime is like that is well, for the lack of a better term, BULLSHIT.

[bagandscalpel]

Somewhere in the world, somebody is thinking to himself: "This thread- just as keikaku."

[Silvanas]

Then you are a drone. You do not even know the content and reasoning behind their studies and you agree with them? Even to the point of using it as evidence for your points? This is exactly what it means to take the "expert" position for its own sake, and I believe you have been attacked more than enough on this point by now for even you to comprehend it.

I also mentioned this earlier, but I will put it in simple terms so that you may address it if you wish. Are these experts talking about anime? Translation is a broad field, and differences can arise (yes, even opposing views) depending on what is being tackled. Just because it applies to french novels does not mean it applies to Japanese anime.

Times change. Its 2008. Global and intercultural exchanges have become much more common than let's say a decade ago (and I believe these experts' quotes are from before that at least). Have you (or Otaking) not stopped to think that this change may be mainly due to the change in global cultural climate rather than the "ineptness" of fansubbers? Just because some are averse to change does not make it negative.

Actually I think my bias towards their side makes me more willing to accept it, whereas someone who doesn't agree would want to question it more, though I would like too read a published thesis on the topic now I wouldn't know where to find one, however it would be quite interesting. Perhaps the point they try to get across is made clear if you do read one I also expect they account for a lot of the points you make which I can not.