Naruto Chapter 398

[Munsu]

http://mangashare.com/dl/Naruto_398/1117/

[Xscatic]

first of all, if this is not the real chapter 398, then i apolguize in advance ( cuz i'd been wrong lately when posting late at night)

either way, you can see/ read it at onemanga.com

finally, the summary. a very cool wtf?!?!:eek: this chapter presents something that i really would not expect from konoha, but with the people tobi / marada/ obito mentioned about knowing the truth, it could be a possibility......??? and if this isn't bs, then expect alot more revenge/ fight from emo boy.

:confused: and about tobi / marada/ obito: just who is he? every time you get some actual proof to set it right, some better, nicer form of proof just comes along. For the consideration of my two cents, I think that he is really marada, but he needed a cover to start his operation/ plan called akatsuki, so he just made up "tobi", and if / when he needed to drop it, he can use the backstory of obito's fate just to screw w/ people. just a 1/4 to 1/2 drunk late night theory, so keep the flames to a minimum.

[Munsu]

Looks like we're going to get a Kakashi Gaiden type of story... good stuff.

[animus]

Now we finally learn Shodaime's real name and the "real history" that happened in the past.

[SilentSnake]

all I can say is : cool :D

And the chapter was 19 page long :)

as for Xscatic - why would you consider Madara not being Madara ?? It all fits.

[Psyke]

Good chapter, and more about the first Hokage can't be bad. Sasuke's getting boring though.

[RyougaZell]

Holy shit...
So the old theory of Itachi being ordered by the Sandaime to kill the Uchiha may end up being true after all?

I agree with Psyke that Sasuke is getting boring. But at least we get to see the story of the Shodaime... Senju Hashirama... so... then the Godaime's full name is Senju Tsunade?

While this upcoming story looks very interesting, I am still waiting for the news of Jiraiya's death to reach Naruto and Tsunade.

EDIT:
fixed a mixed name

[Uchiha Barles]

Psyke said SASUKE is getting boring. Itachi's still rocks. And man...this series FINALLY has the potential of taking the turn towards the dark side. The chance at some measure of redemption for the series is right here.

There's a million things I'd like to know, but this is the second mention of the chakra of the Uchiha being special in some way. Just what other superpower are they going to throw on top of the sharingan?

[Iradeum]

I think the new manga was pretty interesting, although I wanted to see something else - just how did Itachi give Sasuke his doujutsu ? Why did he kill his clan ? While they answered the second question, the answer only gave me more questions - like why did the 3rd hokage make Itachi kill his own clan ? Why did Itachi want everyone to forget about it all ? I don't know, but I sure hope they reveal a lot more stuff next week.

[Eurasian]

Madara calling Shodaime the only man he ever admired...gets me quite excited for the upcoming chapters!! Can't wait to see what he can do...since he only made a brief appearance way back when Konoha was being invaded. Even so, that doesn't really count since he was like a summoned dead O_O

[Abdula]

Nice chapter I for one am enthused that Kishi has finally decided to give his little world some depth. Naruto has always been this light shonen romp with very little to no backstory on anything and everyone squirming around going about their own business. I believe I said this before but since the time skip the content and the context of Naruto began to change dramatically and this is only a continuation of that. Now Kishi is finally giving us something worth reading and something intriguing enough that its actually worth discussing much less thinking about. Hell and it only took him about nine years to accomplish too:mad:


I think the new manga was pretty interesting, although I wanted to see something else - just how did Itachi give Sasuke his doujutsu ? Why did he kill his clan ? While they answered the second question, the answer only gave me more questions - like why did the 3rd hokage make Itachi kill his own clan ? Why did Itachi want everyone to forget about it all ? I don't know, but I sure hope they reveal a lot more stuff next week.
Um, Madara mentioned that for all of this to make sense he would have to tell Sasuke about everything from the very beginning so I'm sure he'll get around to it when he gets there.

On a side note the leaf village is alot younger than speculated, and doesn't Hashirama look a lot like a young Orochimaru. I get that Kishi likes to draw similar characters but the jaw line, the eyes, the nose, the mouth, even the hair is the same. He looks like he could be Oro's father.

[DB_Hunter]

Well young Madara looks like Sasuke with long hair.

Anyone else think this manga is going to conclude with Sasuke taking the place of Madara and attacking Konoha, and Naruto taking the place of the First in this fight? It would then complete the whole history repeating itself blah blah thing, except this time these two will probably become friends in the end.

[Abdula]

Yes since the very first time I saw the statue of him in the valley of end I knew he was an Uchiha because he looked exactly like Sasuke(more specifically he looked like Sasuke's father).

Yeah once again that too has been in my head since the their battle there and Kakashi mentioned how Naruto x Sasuke and " the founders of the village" were so alike and all the information we've gotten since then only makes its more likely. Its interesting how Kakashi mentioned that the battle between them(Madara x The first) would continue on forever(or something to that extent), wonder how long Kishi was planning this.

[poopdeville]

The first Hokage looks like Orochimaru. Could he have perfected his body transfer immortality jutsu 80 years ago?

[DB_Hunter]

Err how would that relate to Orochimaru? Oro wasn't probably even born at that time, let alone thinking about these jutsu's.

[Chiodos]

Would also be strangley attached that his "mad mind" problaby evolved quite late.

[Darky]

On a side note the leaf village is alot younger than speculated, and doesn't Hashirama look a lot like a young Orochimaru. I get that Kishi likes to draw similar characters but the jaw line, the eyes, the nose, the mouth, even the hair is the same. He looks like he could be Oro's father.

Uhm it's not that much younger then speculated i basicly mentioned younger then a 100 years, but back then my logic was flawed so it couldn't be possible
http://forums.gotwoot.net/showthread.php?p=364252&postcount=46

And i have to agree in Hashirama looking alot like a young Oro, it's freakishly similar

[February]

You guys make these weird far fetched theories everytime...Oro and the 1st Hokage do look similar but there is no way that they are the same person or even related. Or we would see Oro using wood techniques, and have we seen him do that?

[Abdula]

Only one person suggested that they could be the same person. Thats unlikely since Oro wasn't even born back then and he didn't even perfect his immortality jutsu till just about 10 years ago. I just think the resemblance is uncanny and usually Kishi doesn't make characters so similar unless there is some connection between them. The only exception I can think of is Gaara and Sasori, and I still don't get that one.

[Garhert]

Tsunade is the grand daughter of the first right? And the wood element is a blood line limit of the senju clan. Then why Tsunade can't use wood jutsu?

Kakashi = half Uchiha
Yamato = half Senju

[DB_Hunter]

Well, unless Madara can bring back the dead they are going to have to start mixing bloodlines now if they want the clan to survive.

[Abdula]

He doesn't seem to care about the clan or want it to survive. I don't know if its true or not but Itachi did say that Madara helped him to eliminate the clan on that night. He certainly didn't seem to be too concerned about them back then either, as he told Sasuke he will and has sacrificed everything in order to gain power.

About reviving the clan for a bloodline as peculiar as the Uchiha's I don't know if the offspring would inherit the sharingan if both parents aren't Uchihas but there really isn't much point in speculating about that now.

-Besides I think the point of them killing of the clan is because they don't want it to survive. I mean if the clan was so dangerous that all of them needed to be killed off, I don't think they would have allowed Itachi to leave Sasuke alive if his offspring would be able to revive the clan.

[FullMetalAlchemist]

Tsunade is the grand daughter of the first right? And the wood element is a blood line limit of the senju clan. Then why Tsunade can't use wood jutsu?

Kakashi = half Uchiha
Yamato = half Senju


Kakashi is not an uchiha in anyway, his sharingan is a transplant from Obito who was his team member who died during a mission in which kakashi lost an eye. Yamato is an experiment from oro, he was fused with the first cells otherwise he has nothing to do with the first so he isn't from that clan. I believe the first was the only ninja who could use wood element thats the reason tsunade doesn't have it, anyway that was the point of fusing his cells into yamato.

[Raven]

Best chapter in a while. I like where this is going. Finally we seem to be getting some answers. A mini-history arc is just what the doctor ordered.

[poopdeville]

They didn't say it was a bloodline limit of the senju clan. Madara said that Hashirama was the tree element user from the senju clan, there isn't anything to suggest that it was a bloodline limit. Its plausible that Yamato could be half Senju but I doubt thats likely since all of Tsunade's relatives are supposed to be dead so I think she is the last of them.

The Uchiha don't seem like the type to mix blood, with all their Uchiha pride and such.


Yes they did. They just went through this in the anime, a few weeks ago. A bloodline limit is what happens when you mix two (or I guess more) elemental chakra types. And Yamato explained that the Wood Element was made up of water and earth elemental chakra. So the First's ability was a Bloodline limit.

[Abdula]

Please you are obviously a manga reader so don't talk about anime mistranslations in here okay. The First's ability was not a Bloodline Limit and it was already discussed why that is so, if the anime wants to mess with its watchers then just let it be.

[heero]

Yes they did. They just went through this in the anime, a few weeks ago. A bloodline limit is what happens when you mix two (or I guess more) elemental chakra types. And Yamato explained that the Wood Element was made up of water and earth elemental chakra. So the First's ability was a Bloodline limit.

x2

Haku also has bloodline limit because she can mix water with wind to make ice. Also Kakashi mentions that he cannot copy this kind of jutsu because it is bloodline limit. Otherwise he could have copied Yamato's jutsu but he stated clearly that he cannot.

[rockmanj]

I was also under the impression that certain bloodline limits were the result of mixing the elements.

[Assertn]

No.....the ability to perform wood jutsu IS a bloodline limit.
I'm also going to assume that the next few chapters will reveal that the whole Senju clan had this ability.

However, just because an ancestor of yours had a bloodline limit, doesn't necessarily mean you will as well. Not all pure-blood Uchihas ever awaken their sharingan, for example. Also, Haku's mother had hoped that Haku did not inherit her bloodlimit, since Haku is technically only a half-breed of her clan.

[Abdula]

Sure. I'm sure certain bloodline limits would give users the ability to mix elements but that doesn't mean that everyone who can mix elements has a bloodline limit. I guess its semantics. However it was said that the first hokage was the only one who could use mokuton so that alone says its not a bloodline limit, I suppose you could call it a blood limit if you want. Plus we saw the Third Kazekage's ability and that too was said to be an ability only he has. I just think its silly to think that only a bloodline limit would give someone the ability to mix elements so therefore anyone who could mix elements has a bloodline limit. I mean Gaara's ability is obviously a mixture of earth and wind elements but thats not a bloodline limit now is it. Its an ability only Shukaku has that his hosts acquire.

In my opinion the thing that determines whether something is a bloodline limit or not is whether it can be passed on if it can't then it isn't one if it can then it is. I don't see any problem with referring to unique abilities like that as Kekkai Genkais even though I don't consider them to be.

-Remember Naruto asked about Shikamaru's and Choji's jutsus and medical and genjutsus too and Kakashi said those were different. Those too all obviously involve mixing of elements as well but they aren't bloodline limits.

We shall see Assertn, I don't think its likely.

[FullMetalAlchemist]

Please you are obviously a manga reader so don't talk about anime mistranslations in here okay. The First's ability was not a Bloodline Limit and it was already discussed why that is so, if the anime wants to mess with its watchers then just let it be.


Dude you are wrong, just admit it lol here is the proof
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/316/08/
Not everyone can mix chakras together it is supposed to be very rare hence the bloodline limit term. It doesn't only apply to eye technique or bones comming out your body like kimi (just examples there is also the shadow binding techs and many others we have probably yet to see) , making a new element like haku or the first are also bloodlimits.

[Assertn]

lol.

I just like how people always have to be so quick to discredit something from being a bloodline limit. It's been stated several times that the sharingan cannot copy bloodline limits, and Kakashi obviously can't copy mokuton. If it's something only the 1st could do, then why is it only something the 1st could do?

Any ability that any ninja has could be developed in one of three ways:
1) Learned/Trained it.
2) Genetically acquired it.
3) Recieved through a seal/physical mutation. (I'll throw this in to pre-emptively avoid the bitching, although it has no relevance here)

If mokuton is something you can't learn, then it would have to be genetic.
While genetic characteristics of an individual can be inherited, it can also be the evolution of different genetic traits. Therefore, bloodline limits can be inherited, or it can be evolved.

In other words, just because its something ONLY you can do, does not mean its not a bloodline limit.

[Abdula]

Uh:confused: , well like I said I don't have any problem with that nor do I have a problem with them being Kekkai Genkais its just that the term bloodline limit implies that it can be passed on to your offspring.

I think we're getting off track here my original reply that started all this discussion was in response to Garhert post in which he suggested that Yamato may be half Senju. I took that to mean that he thinks the reason he survived Oro's experiments was because he was a descendant of the first and therefore had Senju blood in him which is why he was able to successfully acquire the first abilities.

My response to that was to say that I don't think the first ability was a bloodline limit and I believe I put the line part in Italics to suggest that even though the first ability is considered to be a Kekkai genkai, it was said that he is the only one who could do it which means that the technique won't be passed on to his offspring. I didn't mean to say that the First's technique isn't a kekkai genkai I just meant to say that it can't/wasn't passed on.

I hope you understand what I'm saying, I'm aware that traditional bloodline limits may or may not be passed on or that some people within a clan may inherit those traits stronger than others as with Neji or not at all like Haku's mother was hoping. Anyway long story short I know that the First's technique is a Kekkai Genkai, I just meant to say that it was said that he is the only one who could use it and as yet there hasn't been shown that anyone else in the clan can use it so there shouldn't be anyway anyone else would be able to use the technique short of injecting the persons DNA into them like Oro did. Sorry that got lost somewhere along the line.

-To the person who neg repped me saying this

Admit it when you are wrong. It's more graceful than changing your story and acting as if you agreed with what was being said all along.





Yamato = half Senju
They didn't say it was a bloodline limit of the senju clan.

The First's ability was not a Bloodline Limit and it was already discussed why that is so

I guess its semantics.

In my opinion the thing that determines whether something is a bloodline limit or not is whether it can be passed on if it can't then it isn't one if it can then it is. I don't see any problem with referring to unique abilities like that as Kekkai Genkais.

Really I'm perfectly willing to admit when I'm wrong because just as everyone else I'm wrong quite often but I wasn't changing my story, that was in fact what I was trying to say its just that you guys didn't seem to understand what I was saying (which also happens quite often) so I just elaborated on what I was saying. I just assumed we were all on the same page and I neglected to explicitly state what I meant which I admit was a mistake. I'm not being duplicitous like you seem to think I am.

[SilentSnake]

Honestly, since first was the leader of Senju and story presented by Madara taken place a long time ago the statement that "First was the only one to hold that ability" might simply mean that he was the last of Senju and that's why he was the only one with the ability.

Since Senju and Uchiha were the most powerful clans and both Madara and First had unique abilities there is no reason for us to NOT believe that wood element wasn't just Senju's clan kekkai genkai just like sharingan was Madara's...

Yamato being half-Senju -> there were many Oro's experiments to create first's clone with the ability, he was the only one that survived, that's all, I see no reason to take Garhert's post all THAT serious about half-clan thing.

[Abdula]

Honestly, since first was the leader of Senju and story presented by Madara taken place a long time ago the statement that "First was the only one to hold that ability" might simply mean that he was the last of Senju and that's why he was the only one with the ability.

True but in that case there would be no reason why Kishi would say that the first was the only one Kishi could have simply said that he was the last of his clan therefore he is the only one who can use that technique like what Kishi did with Haku and Kimimaro. The thing with the first's ability is that it was introduced directly after the Third Kakekage's ability and the whole thing with Sasori wanting the Third's ability and Oro wanting the First's ability seemed to parallel each other. Anyway this will probably be resolved in the next chapter.

-Edit to below, if so he would have corrected that when Yamato was introduced and the whole thing about the first's abilities was brought back up.

[Assertn]

...Or it could also have been that Kishi hadn't fleshed out the 1st's history back when he first mentioned him about 5 years ago.

[poopdeville]

In my opinion the thing that determines whether something is a bloodline limit or not is whether it can be passed on if it can't then it isn't one if it can then it is.

Then your opinion is wrong. Kakashi said: "When you have two elements you can control, it's not very difficult to use them separately. But it's a totally different story when it comes to using both together. The ability to control two elements simultaneously and create a new element to manipulate -- that's what's called a kekkei genkai." C316


-Remember Naruto asked about Shikamaru's and Choji's jutsus and medical and genjutsus too and Kakashi said those were different. Those too all obviously involve mixing of elements as well but they aren't bloodline limits.

No, these jutsu do not involve mixing elements. They involve something called "physical recomposition" of yin and yang. C316

[Sidnne]

Of all the idiotic things I've seen argued on these forums, this one just might be tops.

[Abdula]

Damn would you get it through your head that what I was talking about was the specific line part of the the bloodline limit not what they are or aren't called but specifically whether or not the First's ability would be passed from parent to child.

Btw I already read that chapter which is why I referred to stuff that was in there in my previous posts not the mention that FMA has already talked about what you mentioned and posted a link to the chapter no less. Since you don't seem to know what "physical recomposition" is basically as far as this is concerned atleast, all they are talking about is combining the two different chakras to make a new one its just a complicated way of saying mixing (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/316/03/), it also refers to the properties or nature of the chakra. Also anyone who is familiar with this stuff should know that ying and yang or light and dark as the anime refers to it are elements of chakra itself.

-Tried to remove or atleast dumb down the overly aggressive tone of this post as I was already upset over something completely unrelated to this.

[poopdeville]

Btw I already read that chapter which is why I referred to stuff that was in there in my previous posts not the mention that FMA has already talked about what you mentioned and posted a link to the chapter no less. Since you don't seem to know what "physical recomposition" is basically as far as this is concerned atleast, all they are talking about is combining the two different chakras to make a new one its just a complicated way of saying mixing (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/316/03/).

No, it's not. I just read 316-318 or so, and physical recomposition means turning chakra into its element. A wind chakra user's chakra literally turns to wind. An electricity user's chakra turns to electricity. Physical recomposition is what allows Sasuke to breath fire, for example.


Also anyone who is familiar with this stuff should know that ying and yang are elements of chakra itself.

No, they're not. At least not in the same sense as Earth, Wind, Fire, Water, and Electricity, the elements Kakashi was talking about.

[Abdula]

Yes you are right physical recomposition can and does refer to changing the physical properties or nature of your chakra.(added that to my second edit, which I guess was after you quoted me). As for Ying and Yang here are two articles that don't give you much information one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_yang), two (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_elements_%28Chinese_philosophy%29) I'll link something more relevant if and when I find one.

[chet_chetty]

Kishi has already manipulated the real definition of 'chakra' and 'element' to suit his needs to create fictional chemistry, physics, etc. for his Narutoverse. Even though there may be some similarities to the use of the 5 popular elements in many cultures and works of art, it would be unwise to parallel definitions and examples of element manipulation to the T from manga to manga, let alone culture to culture or philosophy to philosophy.

As it is, different cultures and philosophies sight 5 classical elements with 4 of those 5 being consistent amongst respective cultures and philosophies. The fifth is popularly referred as "aether" but can mean one out of a multitude of things: "idea", "spirit", "sounds", "divinity", "void", "space", "metal", "lightning" and probably even more. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element).

A standard understanding of element (nature) and its manipulation does not exist so we best only cite the examples, definitions, and explanations Kishi has given us in Naruto.

[toonice714]

Good chapter. Im just slightly pissed because it took like 6 or 7 pages to shut sasuke up before we could move the story along. I mean he even had to tie him up. Sasuke is such a whiner. anyways good chapter. Konoha's elite are evil?!?! Prepare for the return of the sith......err uchihas.

[Garhert]

Kakashi is not an uchiha in anyway, his sharingan is a transplant from Obito who was his team member who died during a mission in which kakashi lost an eye. Yamato is an experiment from oro, he was fused with the first cells otherwise he has nothing to do with the first so he isn't from that clan. I believe the first was the only ninja who could use wood element thats the reason tsunade doesn't have it, anyway that was the point of fusing his cells into yamato.

I never said they are from the clans. I said they are "half" Uchiha and Senju. And you are wrong. Kakashi has a Sharingan so he has abilities from the Uchiha clan. Same with Yamato. They are both linked to this clans.

I agree with you with the reason why Tsunade can't use wood element jutsu. I think we will know after the next chapter if the first was the only one who could use wood jutsu.


Yamato being half-Senju -> there were many Oro's experiments to create first's clone with the ability, he was the only one that survived, that's all, I see no reason to take Garhert's post all THAT serious about half-clan thing.

Well... I don't know why all take my post that serious ^^ It was just a thought. And I don't think Kakashi and Yamato are related or something to the clans. But they both have abilities of them (if the wood jutsu is a ability of the Senju clan).


And it is "The Senju clan of the forest". So it could be that the wood element is a bloodline limit of the clan. Even if the first was the only one who could use it. Maybe it is something like the MS? Just much stronger and harder to get it that just the first could activate?

But let us wait for the next chapter :cool:

[poopdeville]

Yes you are right physical recomposition can and does refer to changing the physical properties or nature of your chakra.(added that to my second edit, which I guess was after you quoted me). As for Ying and Yang here are two articles that don't give you much information one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_yang), two (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_elements_%28Chinese_philosophy%29) I'll link something more relevant if and when I find one.

Thanks, that's interesting.

[FullMetalAlchemist]

I never said they are from the clans. I said they are "half" Uchiha and Senju. And you are wrong. Kakashi has a Sharingan so he has abilities from the Uchiha clan. Same with Yamato. They are both linked to this clans.

I agree with you with the reason why Tsunade can't use wood element jutsu. I think we will know after the next chapter if the first was the only one who could use wood jutsu.


But let us wait for the next chapter :cool:

When u say someone is "half" of something it implies that they are blood related in some way lol. Make it clear next time so technically im not wrong :p :cool: . Wasn't it said in the past that the first was the only user of the wood element? if that wasn't mistranslated (not looking back at chapters i got no time sorry) then it means that it is not an ability of the clan. my guess is the senju where made of many of todays konoha ninja families including neji, shika, kiba, and shinos families since they seem to be the prominate groups of the village now, not just the family of the first hokages all having the bloodlimit of wood jutsu's.

[Garhert]

When u say someone is "half" of something it implies that they are blood related in some way lol. Make it clear next time so technically im not wrong :p :cool: . Wasn't it said in the past that the first was the only user of the wood element? if that wasn't mistranslated (not looking back at chapters i got no time sorry) then it means that it is not an ability of the clan. my guess is the senju where made of many of todays konoha ninja families including neji, shika, kiba, and shinos families since they seem to be the prominate groups of the village now, not just the family of the first hokages all having the bloodlimit of wood jutsu's.

Ahhh! I can read and write English but I misunderstand some meanings. Well, I'm sorry about that :p

Kakashi said that "mixing element" = Bloodline limit. No matter if the first was the only one or not it is still a bloodline limit. Why should the Senju clan include other clans? In the last chapter Madara said that there were many clans which were hired by countries. After the "great war" (I think?) Konoha was founded by the Senju and Uchiha clan. All the other clans are allies or something like that and joined them.

[Yukimura]

Yep, that's what I got out of it too, The Senju and Uchiha decided to be buddy buddy one day and then some other clans decided to join the drum circle and next thing you know you have a ninja village.

What interests me is why they would decide to become buddy buddy in the first place. One would think since they were the two clans at the top there would have been a certain amount of animosity between them. I doubt many warlords could afford to hire both badass clans to fight for them at the same time so it's likely the Uchiha and Senju faced one another in battle on more than one occasion.

And if that's the case then the Senju must have used techniques not easily raped in one way or another by the brokeness of the Sharingan which would make them pretty impressive techniques indeed.

[docdan63]

I think it is possible that Sarutobi's counselors and Denzou are also Senju clan members. Of course we don't know the specifics of Madara's ongoings yet, but it seems like Itachi was an undercover agent of Konoha's sent out to stop him. In order to establish his credentials with Madara, perhaps the top brass chose to sacrifice the Uchiha clan as an aspect of their continuing rivalry or mistrust of each other.

Whatever the truth is, it does seem fishy to me that the Uchiha massacre occured after the attack Madara visited upon the village by using his sharingan's control over the kyuubi. Again, referencing the Senju clan's rivalry with the Uchiha, the top brass would have identified an Uchiha source of power as being the cause of the attack and resolved that any Uchiha were too dangerous to be kept alive. Itachi, sensing this, agrees to participate in the destruction of his clan and to take up an undercover assignment in exchange for some reassurance that his brother's life be spared (referencing Madara's hint that Itachi had done all this to protect Sasuke.)

[Sidnne]

Whatever the truth is, it does seem fishy to me that the Uchiha massacre occured after the attack Madara visited upon the village by using his sharingan's control over the kyuubi. Again, referencing the Senju clan's rivalry with the Uchiha, the top brass would have identified an Uchiha source of power as being the cause of the attack and resolved that any Uchiha were too dangerous to be kept alive. Itachi, sensing this, agrees to participate in the destruction of his clan and to take up an undercover assignment in exchange for some reassurance that his brother's life be spared (referencing Madara's hint that Itachi had done all this to protect Sasuke.)


Good theory. This seems highly plausible, and likely the frontrunner plotline for what really happened.

Still, my biggest concern about the Uchiha story atm is what Madara wants from Sasuke that he couldn't have gotten from Itachi.

[docdan63]

Good theory. This seems highly plausible, and likely the frontrunner plotline for what really happened.

Still, my biggest concern about the Uchiha story atm is what Madara wants from Sasuke that he couldn't have gotten from Itachi.


Really? Wow thanks. I wrote that at like 2:30 in the morning. I don't think it was that great. I mean I was coming up with stuff that was half baked. The Senju clan is more powerful to me than the Uchiha crew. But, most people don't agree with me on that one. But I came up that theory weighing different things:


Uchiha clan:
can control bijuu
can control other uchiha (Madara atleast)
copy other jutsus (sans blood limit , I don't want to start another argument so please just accept that as my answer)
only a few can achieve EMS

Senju clan:
Can also control bijuu (oh wait, only the first could)
wood jutsu (oh wait only the first could)
Nothing else but great ninjas

Now. I'm not saying that the Uchiha kick ass better than the Senju. But I don't think I'm wrong in saying that the Uchiha know they're shit a little more because of the almighty eyes. And my theory is my theory so don't get me wrong. But lots of Uchihas can copy lots of jutsus and even Madara can control a whole army of people. And better yet, some chapters back, he even controlled a clan of fellow family members to do his bidding for him while he was king/CEO. And of the entire senju clan, only the first has any real powers worth some salt. Basically, without Madara, the Uchiha are fine. Without the first the senju are fucked. In more ways than one.

[Abdula]

Well we can't say for sure but we've seen enough evidence to show that having a bloodline limit no matter how broken it is doesn't make you an unstoppable ninja. Its the ninjas themselves that make the difference. Uchiha, Hyuuga, Kaguya they can all get owned despite their Kekkai Genkais. Even Pein who is supposed the have the strongest and rarest of them all could have and would have lost to Jiraiya so it isn't as simple as saying the ninjas who have a Kekkai are better than others. If two ninjas of the same level go at it then the one with the Kekkai Genkai will have an advantage so having one is a plus but its not everything.

Secondly Madara said that the Senju clan and the Uchiha clan were the top dogs and him and the first were the best in their respective clans that doesn't mean that the clans wouldn't be able to do anything without them because I would think its the overall strength of the clan not the top two individuals that made them the best. Besides Itachi said that Madara's little brother rivaled Madara in strength and competing against each other is what made them get so strong that was before he killed him of course and as for the Senju, the second hokage was the first's little brother.


Anyway, since it was revealed that Itachi was ordered to kill the clan and only those 4 knew about it. I was wondering if there wasn't another reason for Danzo ordering Sai to kill Sasuke.

[animus]

You people are using the term bloodline too loosely.

Just because some bloodline abilities are the combination and mixing of 2 elements doesn't mean they all are. It was stated that the Shodaime was the ONLY ninja capable of using the wood element (besides Yamato, whose just a clone of him anyways). Thus meaning, his offspring could not use it, and Tsunade sure as hell can not use it. So how's that a bloodline ability? It's not a passed trait or ability to your offspring thus totally negating the term Bloodline.

Kakashi can't copy the Rasengan either with his Sharingan, does that make it a bloodline ability too? Nope.

[Yukimura]

I think where confusion comes in is when people add in external knowledge about genetics to what we know about the First. Science teaches that any genetic trait a person has can be passed onto their offspring through genes. However people seem to forget that genetic traits can be recessive and sometimes once in a billion flukes.

The wood element is a Kekkei Genkai because we were just told that it requires Kekkei Genkai to be able to mix chakra types. If you look at the term Kekkei Genkai as 'special genetic traits' it shouldn't be that hard to rectify the Wood element as both a Kekkei Genkai and unique to one person and his genetic clone.

Short version: Genetic traits do not have to manifest in every generation, or even every few generations, or even more than once in the history of humanity for them to be genetic traits.

Longer Version: It's most likely that the First had a rare, previously unheard of mix of recessive genes that allowed him to mix earth and water chakra to use the wood element. If the requirement was the product of many different genetic factors that have only ever appeared together in the First then only he (or a clone of him) would be capable of using wood techniques. The chance that mixing his unique genes with someone not of the same or a similar genetic heritage and producing an offspring with all of the necessary genetic markers to allow the offsring to also use the technique would be indirectly proportional to the complexity and recessiveness of the genetic markers that enable wood element use.

For the sake of argument lets say it requires 10 different rare and recessive genes to be present on 10 different chromosomes. In that case, the chance that all 10 would pass intact onto an offspring and not be dominated by any dominant genes from the mother should be pretty low.

Addendum: There's also no reason anyone wouldn't be able to understand the mechanism behind the Rasengan even without a Sharingan. It's a simply a lot of chakra spinning around very fast in a confined space. What makes it difficult to duplicate is that it requires above average effort and skill to generate, maintain, and control the high energy, high entropy chakra and thus make it usable. Sharingan should certainly be able to perceive what goes into the technique but I don't believe it grants the users body the ability to spontaneously reproduce the same effects without any practice or training.

[DB_Hunter]

@Animus: Kakashi can use Rasengan, and we don't know if that's because he copied it or was actually taught it by Jiraiya or Minato.

[Abdula]

Well as far as the limitations of the sharingan's copy ability were explained and the fact that the rasengan is only shape manipulation there isn't any reason to think that the sharingan can't copy it, especially since the sharingan can see chakra and all.

[Naruto_RNG]

There is something that sounds fishy here and i dont know if any1 has mentioned it, before the time jump we were told that hinata's clan were the oldest clan that lived in konoha since the foundation of it, and sharingan came off from their clan too somehow. My question comes, where were the hyuugas when it is said now that senju and uchihas were the first?

[Abdula]

Well the village hasn't been founded yet so there isn't any problem because obviously other clans joined the village after it was founded. As for them being the oldest there isn't really anything to dispute that. They probably are the oldest clan there is, with all the fuss they make about self preservation and the continuation of their bloodline. Anyway its seems that the Uchiha and the Senju founded the village but we don't know the specifics yet like when, where and how this all came about. So even though they founded the village I doubt it was just those two clans alone, the Hyuuga were most likely involved as well and the Nara clan has a big ass forest right outside the village.

[animus]

@Animus: Kakashi can use Rasengan, and we don't know if that's because he copied it or was actually taught it by Jiraiya or Minato.

I wasn't aware he could use it. I was under the assumption that his attempts at making a Rasengan was how he got Chidori.

[DB_Hunter]

No that was his own technique. Which leads to the interesting question of what a Rasengan with Kakashi's own nature manipulation, electricity, be like.

[Abdula]

We will never find out because there would be no need for it. Kakashi's raikiri already has shape and nature manipulation so I imagine that if he wanted to he could turn it into a sphere like rasengan but its the most potent when its in the form of a "power surge" as he put it.

[Assertn]

Erm....we already kinda saw what it would look like....

Kakashi made a rasengan, except it was small and blackish looking. He couldn't evolve it any further than that specifically because the nature and form of the chakra just weren't compatible.