Naruto Shippuuden Episode 55

[Munsu]

http://dattebayo.com/t/ns055.torrent

[Archangel]

Lost of info about ninjutsu and no action so overall crappy episode... as always.

I'm intrigued to how the new technique is gonna look like ( probably another rasengan... ) and just what can this wind jutsu do but other than that i just can't think of a reason to keep watching naruto

A village being destroyed, yep this filler is gonna be original if nothing else...

[Yukimura]

We knew Naruto was an idiot, but damn...poor Kakashi.


Anyway goo-gobs of Narutoverse questions answered is certainly a good thing. I had always wondered if Naruto had either shared awareness or actual control over his clones. This form of bond between clones however opens up a new door for Naruto to go thtough to get smarter, were he so inclined.

However this training method doesn't make any sense. if he creates a clone of himself and both try to solve a problem they'd both probably do it the same way since they're both Naruto. I don't see how he's supposed to learn faster if he has hundreds of clones with the same thought patterns trying to solve the same problem.

[Assertn]

I really enjoyed this episode.

Good animation and lots of buildup/information.

[Munsu]

I've been catching up as of late, I was back on episode 144 or so... got 3 more episodes more to go, but man the staring contests are pissing me off.

[Uchiha Barles]

It's about time they got to this point in the anime. Maybe now, after they finally get to animating all the things in the manga that result from this, I can stop putting my palm to my face while saying "......disgrace"*shakes head* at the sight of Naruto. Oh, and whatever ultimate technique he learns, I hope he also learns a few lesser techniques in the process to round out his fighting abilities.

I also like how they decided to "save that for later" with regards to the other types of jutsu out there that don't seem to be related to the five basic elements. What I heard was this: "Lets wait until Hunter x Hunter comes up with some explanation for some of their more obscure skills, so that we can then proceed to rip it off, dumb it down, and package it in a more palatable format."

[Turkish-S]

Good episode.. you know what would be fucking great?... If naruto kept training and team shikamaru went to do the next mission. ( Next episode will be filler rite?)

[Rasiel]

We knew Naruto was an idiot, but damn...poor Kakashi.

However this training method doesn't make any sense. if he creates a clone of himself and both try to solve a problem they'd both probably do it the same way since they're both Naruto. I don't see how he's supposed to learn faster if he has hundreds of clones with the same thought patterns trying to solve the same problem.

maybe that is why only naruto is suitable for it, his first attempst will rely on luck since he dont think too mich and if you have a lot of clones you have better chance to get lucky...

[Archangel]

However this training method doesn't make any sense. if he creates a clone of himself and both try to solve a problem they'd both probably do it the same way since they're both Naruto. I don't see how he's supposed to learn faster if he has hundreds of clones with the same thought patterns trying to solve the same problem.

Well, if there were 2 of you, do you think you would both think the exact same thing at the exact same time? No, you wouldn't and since this training apparently relies on trial and error this looks like the way to go.

If anything doesn't make sense is how the hell he could survive after having 1000 different memories and experiences stuffed in his head in less than a second. Naruto has obviously never watched "The butterfly effect" :)

[HachimonTonkou]

I thought it was a pretty damn good episode. I like the idea of the training, but I'm curious to know who these new enemies are that attacked the bordering village. These fillers seem to have more potential than the previous ones that turned out to be escort missions.

[Abdula]

Well, if there were 2 of you, do you think you would both think the exact same thing at the exact same time? No, you wouldn't and since this training apparently relies on trial and error this looks like the way to go.

That is the problem, its not two different people trying to figure out the same thing its just one person. Its just Naruto and his clones and as we've seen before either in previous training sessions or in battle it doesn't matter how many clones of him there are they all think and act exactly the same, which is why they have never been effective. With Naruto its not as if your fighting multiple people as it is when, say Kakashi or the third used it, its just more like you're just fighting the same person over and over. Its one of the many examples of things in Naruto where Kishi purposely doesn't explain how it works so he can apply it however he wants later.

I mean Naruto has been using his clones since the very beginning and not only has he been unaware of this little nugget but he never seemed to have benefited from it at all. Anyway this is just Kishi's way of making up for the apparently wasted 2.5 years Naruto spent with Jiraiya. Rather cheap if you ask me because Sasuke, Sakura and everybody else spent that time actually improving now Naruto is just going to take a shortcut and most likely surpass all of them. Funny thing is they are probably going to just give him another superpowerful jutsu that he can't use properly and his basic skills are still going to suck. This is just as bad as when Ichigo cheated to gain Bankai and then went talking big to Byakuya, even though he still didn't even know how to use it properly.

Btw from what I understand about the way this works I don't see why anyone else couldn't use the same method. I get that no one else would be able to make as many clones as Naruto but all jonin level ninjas are supposed to be able to use shadow clones, I mean all you have to know is a single seal, so why couldn't someone else just use that training method. I mean even if its one clone they would still accomplish their training in half the time. Reminds me of rasengan because I still can't understand why other people can't do that either.

Good point about the butterfly effect though, I suppose it wouldn't have much effect on Naruto since this is more than likely just Kishi's way of making up for his lack of talent. I guess it really is just trial and error in which case, numbers would make a huge different but it couldn't possibly be just that simple.

Rant over, for now anyway.

[Kraco]

I didn't mind this episode that much, especially since it seems to promise a new technique for the most fighting skill deprived character. Although how it underlined time after time Naruto's lack of wits was annoying. It's not like all there episodes so far hadn't taught us Naruto is lacking a little in the thinking department, so why make a special point of it anymore?

[Uchiha Barles]

About Naruto's new training strategy, actually it should work pretty well. Yeah, it's a whole bunch of Naruto's training, look at this is way. Each Naruto has a certain probability (just about the same probability, since they're all Naruto) of succeeding at understanding something/accomplishing something during training in a certain time span. If you increase the number of Narutos training, the probability that one of them will achieve some measure of success in a given time frame, is increased.

Also, Kakashi explained why this method isn't for everyone. Not only can most people not create the same number of clones, most people can't sustain a shadow clone's existance for as long as Naruto can. Straight from the mouth of Kakashi. If you found a Jounin who could sustain, say, 3 clones for as long as Naruto can sustain 20, then yes, he could benifit from that training method in all likelihood. But as of right now, we don't that any ninja we've encountered can, and we don't know that any we've encountered can't, except kakashi, and probably sakura.

And if this is a cheezy way to make Naruto more powerful, I'm all for it. That fucking sharingan is second to none in cheese factor.

[Munsu]

It's not only the ammount of chakra to create the clones, Kakashi also made notice of Naruto's stamina. You can pretty much assume that no one in Konoha has either the chakra ammount and stamina to make this effort worthwhile. Not only that, I'm willing to bet that not everyone (jounin+) or that many people know how to do the actual kage bunshin, and even if they do, that they can actually be any effective with it. They do some clones here and there, but not the actual kage bunshin.

Also, it's kinda dumb to assume that all the Naruto clones think the exact same way or would handle the same situation the exact same way. When you're confronted with the same situation or problem, do you always deal with it the exact same way? No. You never do.

Edit: Now you can argue that the rate at which he learns things might not be accurate, and I would agree. This is simply an oversimplification by Kakashi, but no matter what, the rate at which he learns the technique should be exponentially faster.

[Archangel]

If you found a Jounin who could sustain, say, 3 clones for as long as Naruto can sustain 20, then yes, he could benifit from that training method in all likelihood.

No, because it isn't enough to just be able to maintain the clones. You have to realize that not only is naruto using 1000 clones but he's also using a technique that requires some chakra. Even the jounins that are able to use a fair amount of shadow clones only use taijitsu while maintaining them since their chakra is already so spread out.

Btw, this technique gets retarded points for instantaneously returning the chakra from the clones to the user. I mean wtf does naruto have a bluetooth receiver on his ass or something?

[Uchiha Barles]

No, because it isn't enough to just be able to maintain the clones. You have to realize that not only is naruto using 1000 clones but he's also using a technique that requires some chakra. Even the jounins that are able to use a fair amount of shadow clones only use taijitsu while maintaining them since their chakra is already so spread out.

Btw, this technique gets retarded points for instantaneously returning the chakra from the clones to the user. I mean wtf does naruto have a bluetooth receiver on his ass or something?

Yet another fantastic point I somehow missed as to why this method works for naruto, and not others. *hi five*

[KrayZ33]

However this training method doesn't make any sense. if he creates a clone of himself and both try to solve a problem they'd both probably do it the same way since they're both Naruto. I don't see how he's supposed to learn faster if he has hundreds of clones with the same thought patterns trying to solve the same problem.


well, if you do something difficult you think about different ways to do that "difficult" thing..

so, each shadowclone uses a different way to concentrate the shakra (maybe) and if one succeeds, all the clones focus on how to perfect it and so on.
this way, he will know which way is the most efficient way or easiest way to control it.

it does make sense...

btw, i liked this episode very much... finally some more "know-how" and the animation wasn't that bad either.

"Sensei is sorry! ~gomen gomen~!" ... good stuff ^^
Yamato was awesome, too... when he made that waterfall i got the urgent desire to play Populus lol....

[Archangel]

Yet another fantastic point I somehow missed as to why this method works for naruto, and not others. *hi five*

Naruto has lots more chakra than normal people because he has naughty fox inside him, most people don't have naughty foxes inside them so they can't do that. Comprendo?

Besides when kakashi said that method would only work with naruto he was probably referring to all the people who were in the room at the time. Someone like kisame should be able to do it too.

[Xyrox]

Not bad. They made the clone training sound a little bit better than when I heard of it the first time (a friend of mine spoiled). At that point I was seriously thinking about abandoning Naruto, which says pretty much - yes, I followed the anime during the filler hell, but that was just because it was fillers = I can ignore it if I want.

Turkish-S: that's exactly what I said in another thread. Let's hope for the best.

[KrayZ33]

Btw, this technique gets retarded points for instantaneously returning the chakra from the clones to the user. I mean wtf does naruto have a bluetooth receiver on his ass or something?


lol huh?

you try to find something that makes "sense" in an anime where people can create a waterfall out of the blue?

so how does chakra return, lets see

if you go from A to B you go the same way back from B to A, normally..

so when he splitts his chakra in some weird way, the chakra will flow back the exact same, weird way.

[Abdula]

It's not only the ammount of chakra to create the clones, Kakashi also made notice of Naruto's stamina. You can pretty much assume that no one in Konoha has either the chakra ammount and stamina to make this effort worthwhile. Not only that, I'm willing to bet that not everyone (jounin+) or that many people know how to do the actual kage bunshin, and even if they do, that they can actually be any effective with it. They do some clones here and there, but not the actual kage bunshin.

Also, it's kinda dumb to assume that all the Naruto clones think the exact same way or would handle the same situation the exact same way. When you're confronted with the same situation or problem, do you always deal with it the exact same way? No. You never do.
Well it was mentioned before that in the Narutoverse chakra and stamina or the exact same thing or atleast they are directly related.

No its not really dumb to assume that because, no a normal person wouldn't but Naruto would and has and I believe Jiraiya mentioned something to that extent before though I can't remember exactly where.



Also, Kakashi explained why this method isn't for everyone. Not only can most people not create the same number of clones, most people can't sustain a shadow clone's existance for as long as Naruto can. Straight from the mouth of Kakashi. If you found a Jounin who could sustain, say, 3 clones for as long as Naruto can sustain 20, then yes, he could benifit from that training method in all likelihood. But as of right now, we don't that any ninja we've encountered can, and we don't know that any we've encountered can't, except kakashi, and probably sakura.

And if this is a cheezy way to make Naruto more powerful, I'm all for it. That fucking sharingan is second to none in cheese factor.
That doesn't make sense since it was never mentioned that there is an exact requirement for one to perform a shadow clone, when it was first explained all that was said was that the technique divided up the chakra of the user evenly amongst the clones so twenty Naruto bushins and twenty Kakashi bushins would not require the same amount of chakra. It was mentioned again when Konohamaru's teacher, can't remember that guys name, said that with the same amount of chakra it takes for Naruto to make one clone Sakura and Sasuke could probably make twenty. So logically since the amount of chakra required for the technique is dependent on the user I don't see why someone else couldn't maintain other clones for just as long.

As for your last line I'm surprised you don't see the potential there, if its always going to be using one cheesy technique to 1up another cheesy technique then where do you think this is headed.


No, because it isn't enough to just be able to maintain the clones. You have to realize that not only is naruto using 1000 clones but he's also using a technique that requires some chakra. Even the jounins that are able to use a fair amount of shadow clones only use taijitsu while maintaining them since their chakra is already so spread out.

Btw, this technique gets retarded points for instantaneously returning the chakra from the clones to the user. I mean wtf does naruto have a bluetooth receiver on his ass or something?
Reminds me of the thirds battle with Oro, because he too used shadow clones which should have evenly divided up his chakra amongst himself and the two clones and then he still proceeded to use an insanely powerful technique (powerful enough to seal Kyuubi) which I'm sure required a huge amount of chakra and this was after he had already used a number of jutsus against Oro including a high level summoning.

[Archangel]

Just because it's anime it doesn't mean it has to lack complete sense :P

Hmmm... an arc featuring shikamaru's team? I'd watch that

Abdula - Could u be more specific? I'm not really remembering that fight

[Uchiha Barles]

To Abdula

You're right about a few things: the amount of Chakra it takes to perform the technique varies by person, according to the efficiency with which they use the chakra to perform the technique. But you might be misunderstanding something about kage bunshin. It divides the chakra of a person evenly. To be more specific, Naruto has 4 times more chakra than kakashi, when only considering the chakra that is proper to Naruto, not the demon. That means, that Naruto can create four clones, and each clone will have the same amount of chakra as kakashi. This is significant, because in order to train, you need to have enough chakra to do so. Any clone that doesn't have enough chakra to train is useless, and if one clone is useless on account of that, all the clones are useless on account of the way kage bunshin distributes the user's chakra. This is what Arcangel mentioned. The chakra it takes to perform the technique is different than what happens to the remaining chakra (as in, how the chakra is distributed among clones - you should think of those things separately).

As far as what that teacher said, at this point, I would assume naruto's as good as anyone else at using the technique efficiently (as in, making the clones without waste of excess chakra). So there should be a direct correlation between the chakra distribution Naruto experiences, and the chakra distribution someone else experience by virtue of the technique. Again, this is separate from the cost of performing the technique. If Naruto has more chakra than some other ninja, each of his clones will be more suited for training than that other ninja.

As far as that last line is concerned, it's just in keeping with my distaste for the hardon kishi has for Sasuke, and the horrible job he's doing with Naruto growth. Not that this makes things much better, but it makes them a little better. Hopefully, that'll be it for the stupid nonsense power ups (but you know it won't be.)

[Munsu]

Yes, chakra and stamina are related, but they're not the same thing. It's like saying to a marathon runner that keeping your body hydrated and your resistance is one and the same. They aren't, but when running a marathon one affects the other, etc.

[Assertn]

It was never elaborated in the anime, but according to the manga (sometime back during the chuunin exam), stamina gets converted to chakra when you exhaust your chakra. Characters like Rock Lee just use the stamina directly, without converting it.

But, if you max out your stamina by converting it to chakra and exhausting the chakra...you can die.

[Yukimura]

Just to clear something else up It was never stated that the chakra of a clone returns to the orignal user when the technique is over only the experiences. When Naruto fought Garaa in the forest he mentioned that he'd used up almost all of his chakra after he created the 1000 clones that Garaa destroyed by getting big. This wouldn't have been the case if he got all the chakra each of those thousand clones must have possessed back.

Another observation since we're strolling down memory lane, the thirds shadow clones survived multiple direct strikes and even got knocked down while they were waiting for Shiki Fuujin to ge ready and then while they were grabbing the hokage zombies. This always made me think that a skilled enough user could create shadow clones that could stand a few hits, as long as the user made them well or something. (Or Kishi just doens't like his own rules)

[Archangel]

But, if you max out your stamina by converting it to chakra and exhausting the chakra...you can die.

So i guess that's why you die after opening the 8th gate right?

Just using a jutsu by itself spends chakra yuki, if that wasn't the case then using shadow clones wouldn't spend any chakra as long as no clone used a jutsu.

[Assertn]

So i guess that's why you die after opening the 8th gate right?
yep


Just using a jutsu by itself spends chakra yuki, if that wasn't the case then using shadow clones wouldn't spend any chakra as long as no clone used a jutsu.
Indeed....the chakra used for the jutsu is what is lost though, not the distributed chakra.

If naruto makes 1 clone, he splits all his chakra between him and the clone.
When he disperses the clone, that doesn't mean that he still only has half the chakra that he started with...he gets back whatever chakra the clone didn't use.

[Uchiha Barles]

Just to clear something else up It was never stated that the chakra of a clone returns to the orignal user when the technique is over only the experiences. When Naruto fought Garaa in the forest he mentioned that he'd used up almost all of his chakra after he created the 1000 clones that Garaa destroyed by getting big. This wouldn't have been the case if he got all the chakra each of those thousand clones must have possessed back.

Another observation since we're strolling down memory lane, the thirds shadow clones survived multiple direct strikes and even got knocked down while they were waiting for Shiki Fuujin to ge ready and then while they were grabbing the hokage zombies. This always made me think that a skilled enough user could create shadow clones that could stand a few hits, as long as the user made them well or something. (Or Kishi just doens't like his own rules)

There might be a couple of ways to interpret what happens to kage bunshins when they get struck. If you compare the ease with which Naruto's kage bunshins get destroyed as compared to the third's, I'm inclined to say that Naruto sucks so bad at taijutsu that it's just that easy to deliver a killing blow on a clone. Whereas, for the third, the blows that he took weren't killing blows.

Another might be that, the more clones you make, the weaker each is. That's consistant with the fact that the more clones you make, the less chakra they have. And if that chakra link with stamina is true, then that gives even more credence to this interpretation.

About the user of Kage Bunshin getting the unused portion of chakra back upon dispell, would that also apply if the clones were destroyed instead of dispelled?

[KrayZ33]

Indeed....the chakra used for the jutsu is what is lost though, not the distributed chakra.

If naruto makes 1 clone, he splits all his chakra between him and the clone.
When he disperses the clone, that doesn't mean that he still only has half the chakra that he started with...he gets back whatever chakra the clone didn't use.


ya i think so too

if naruto has 100 chakra points and the creation of 1 Kage bushin takes away 1 of those points then its like

Naruto = 49,5 points Clone = 49,5 points

if he release him instantly he gets back what the clone has left, in this case 49,5 points

Naruto = 99 points
if the clone uses a technique it will have less points after that and so on

and it seems like the clone is constantly loosing chakra points over time.
so when naruto goes for a walk, together with the clone, the clone will only have like 45,5 chakra points left

Naruto = 95 points (i m not sure about this one.. its possibly that oth naruto and the clone lose chakra if they move around all the time, i don't know if his chakra is ALWAYS splittet 50:50 or just at the moment he made them)

^^ well i guess thats how it works.

@ kage bushin taking a few hits:

i guess the hits have to be fatal in some way. we saw kabuto breaking a kage-bushin's hand and it didn't vanish instantly, the other clones, struck by his
chakra-scalpel vanished instantly


btw i have a question, i don't have the very first episodes on my computer... but when naruto used kage-bushin against kakashi and kakashi used the replacement-jutsu, naruto thought that he used henge-no-jutsu and transformed into one of his clones.

naruto nearly knocked himself out at that point and had a lot of bruises and wounds when he dispelled his jutsu. was it mentioned that the kage-bushin user also takes the damage which the clones suffered in combat? i think something like that was mentioned, but i m not sure.

[Archangel]

Another might be that, the more clones you make, the weaker each is. That's consistant with the fact that the more clones you make, the less chakra they have. And if that chakra link with stamina is true, then that gives even more credence to this interpretation.

Well that theory does have some merit but if you think about it taijitsu doesn't really use chakra, just stamina so that shouldn't make them weaker physically but just incapable of using more advanced jutsu if any.

Doing a comparison between the thirds shadow clones and naruto's just isn't gonna work since they're on such different levels but i do think that yuki may be right, the technique in an advanced stage will probably allow the clones to survive some hits.

Btw u don't have to give naruto's clones a killing blow to get rid of them, most blows will get rid of them easily

Edit: Dude, if naruto didnt get back his chakra after his clones were destroyed he wouldn't last 2 minutes in any fight :D

[Abdula]

Yes as far as the clones are concerned Kishi seems to throw out the rules whenever its convient. For example we've seen clones sustain heavy damage yet the technique is not dispelled, we've even seen clones take direct hits from Neji's Jyuuken and even cough up blood but not get dispelled and then there are times when a shuriken to shoulder, a punch or even a simple finger flick would dispel them.

Btw as far as other people being able to use this technique is concerned there still doesn't seem to be any reason why other people can't use this same method to train but to a lesser extent. For example why can't say Tenten use this technique and train with one clone or guy pull a Piccolo and fight with himself because if even naruto has more chakra and stamina than anyone else the sheer number of clones he is using would makes it irrelevant.

[Uchiha Barles]

Well that theory does have some merit but if you think about it taijitsu doesn't really use chakra, just stamina so that shouldn't make them weaker physically but just incapable of using more advanced jutsu if any.

Doing a comparison between the thirds shadow clones and naruto's just isn't gonna work since they're on such different levels but i do think that yuki may be right, the technique in an advanced stage will probably allow the clones to survive some hits.

Btw u don't have to give naruto's clones a killing blow to get rid of them, most blows will get rid of them easily

Edit: Dude, if naruto didnt get back his chakra after his clones were destroyed he wouldn't last 2 minutes in any fight :D

A couple of things: we don't know that the third's clones are on a higher level than Naruto's. That's a third interpretation that holds no more or less water than the two I mentioned. It might be one of those skills that is the same for anyone who casts it. If the third were to cast a million clones like naruto does, each might be just as weak. We simply don't have enough details about the workings of the technique to know what interpretation is correct, if any, which is why I ventured more than one.

Another thing is, taijutsu does take chakra. From what I've seen, after losing chakra past a certain point, even your taijutsu gets weaker. I could simply just be misunterstanding the link between chakra and stamina though. I'll admit that I'm not following that. Furthermore, the gate openings are taijutsu techniques, and those clearly require at least a flow of chakra. It stands to reason that if less chakra is flowing, that technique might be less effective. Something similar might apply to kage bunshins.

The last thing is, how do you know the chakra is returned at all, upon dispell or upon destruction of a clone? I haven't seen that in the anime, and I started reading the manga around the chasing sasuke arc, and haven't seen that in the manga either. This is conjecture, though I suppose it is an educated guess with good basis.



Btw as far as other people being able to use this technique is concerned there still doesn't seem to be any reason why other people can't use this same method to train but to a lesser extent. For example why can't say Tenten use this technique and train with one clone or guy pull a Piccolo and fight with himself because if even naruto has more chakra and stamina than anyone else the sheer number of clones he is using would makes it irrelevant.

Ok, I forgot to address one thing in your post, the stamina thing. Kakashi did also mention that there was a stamina requirement to keep a clone active, which is stamina that he himself did not possess to make that training useful to him. So basically, to make this technique work, you need the following:

1) Create clones that have enough chakra to be useful for training.
2) Have the stamina to keep them out long enough for the training.

Anyone who can do these things can use this technique. You're right. But, who do we KNOW can do this besides Naruto? Specially in regards to the second requirement. Also, who do we KNOW can do this better than Naruto as regards to both requirements?

[KrayZ33]

isn't kage bushin a "forbidden technique"?

thats probably why nearly no one use that technique, not only is it chakra inefficient (it was mentioned in the anime like 20 times) but it was also in the scroll with "forbidden techniques" naruto stole in the first episodes.

and it seems like not everyone knows about this side effect, kakashi said so because he too can make kage-bushin and thats why he knows about it.

[Archangel]

Another thing is, taijutsu does take chakra. From what I've seen, after losing chakra past a certain point, even your taijutsu gets weaker. I could simply just be misunterstanding the link between chakra and stamina though. I'll admit that I'm not following that. Furthermore, the gate openings are taijutsu techniques, and those clearly require at least a flow of chakra. It stands to reason that if less chakra is flowing, that technique might be less effective. Something similar might apply to kage bunshins.

No, you're definitely confused about those 2 things. Taijitsu only uses stamina but i can be enhanced by using chakra by using techniques such as the 8 inner gates.

As for kage bunshin all i can tell you is that every time we see naruto's clones it doesn't matter if there are 10 or 1000 of them they always seem to demonstrate the same level of taijitsu but until we see some other characters using this technique i cant make any definitive conclusions about it .

Edit: It's probably forbidden since it's used for espionage and it's supposed to be a time of peace in the naruto world.

[KrayZ33]

Edit: It's probably forbidden since it's used for espionage and it's supposed to be a time of peace in the naruto world.


that would be no reason...our world is in "peace" too right now, yet every country has spy-satellites and a military.

[DarthEnderX]

Oh man, for an episode in which nothing actually happened, I was fucking riveted through the whole thing.

An explanation of the elements of Naruto and how they mix.

A further explanation into the intricacies of Shadow Clones.

This is the kind of awesome stuff they don't give us anymore. Ninja magic explained through faux science!


I'm also hoping that Naruto having "wing" elements will mean more than just some wind powered Rasengan further down the road. I hope he learns all kinds of wind powers. Like the Air Walk!

I wasn't expecting him to be Wind element, since most of the Sand ninja seem to be Wind element(well, it is the Wind Country). I was seriously expecting him to be Fire element since Leaf Village is in the Fire Country. And Naruto seems to exemplify everything that is the Leaf Village.


Although, I never understood why the Fire Country's village was a leaf. Leaves are, like, the opposite of fire...

[Abdula]

A couple of things: we don't know that the third's clones are on a higher level than Naruto's. That's a third interpretation that holds no more or less water than the two I mentioned. It might be one of those skills that is the same for anyone who casts it. If the third were to cast a million clones like naruto does, each might be just as weak. We simply don't have enough details about the workings of the technique to know what interpretation is correct, if any, which is why I ventured more than one.

Another thing is, taijutsu does take chakra. From what I've seen, after losing chakra past a certain point, even your taijutsu gets weaker. I could simply just be misunterstanding the link between chakra and stamina though. I'll admit that I'm not following that. Furthermore, the gate openings are taijutsu techniques, and those clearly require at least a flow of chakra. It stands to reason that if less chakra is flowing, that technique might be less effective. Something similar might apply to kage bunshins.

The last thing is, how do you know the chakra is returned at all, upon dispell or upon destruction of a clone? I haven't seen that in the anime, and I started reading the manga around the chasing sasuke arc, and haven't seen that in the manga either. This is conjecture, though I suppose it is an educated guess with good basis.



Ok, I forgot to address one thing in your post, the stamina thing. Kakashi did also mention that there was a stamina requirement to keep a clone active, which is stamina that he himself did not possess to make that training useful to him. So basically, to make this technique work, you need the following:

1) Create clones that have enough chakra to be useful for training.
2) Have the stamina to keep them out long enough for the training.

Anyone who can do these things can use this technique. You're right. But, who do we KNOW can do this besides Naruto? Specially in regards to the second requirement. Also, who do we KNOW can do this better than Naruto as regards to both requirements?

Taijutsu apparently uses up your stamina which as Assertn explain reinforces your chakra. The relationship between the two wasn't explicitly explained though. There are a few things you could use to come up with some theories though for example during the chuunin exam it was explained that for Sasuke to learn chidori that Kakashi had Sasuke copy Lee's movements and speed.

This training was not only done to give him the speed required to perform chidori but also the stamina necessary for it. Lee specifically mentioned that although Sasuke had the ability to copy his movements there was an extreme strain on his body because he simply doesn't have the stamina required to maintain those movements so he was wondering why Kakashi bothered to teach it to Sasuke. Gai then mentioned that the training was not just to gain speed but also to gain the stamina for "body activation" as they put it in the anime.

Basically Sasuke didn't have enough chakra to perform chidori but by increasing his stamina he was able to use "body activation" which then converted his stamina into the chakra he needed to use chidori, which is why Kakashi warned him not to over use chidori since the technique directly converts his stamina into chakra and then exhausts it, so overuse would deplete his stamina which would kill him. So basically I guess "body activation" would be what they use to convert their stamina to chakra which happens normally but this further increases it. It was implied by Neji that Oro' curse seal is a further extension of this same process.

I believe that the gates work in a similar way in that they "release your limits" and forcibly convert your stamina into chakra which is why it puts such a strain on your body and why opening the final gate would give you an amount of chakra even greater than that of a kage but guarantees death. These are just my theories though like I said Kishi never explicitly explained it, or much else for that matter so basically everything is conjecture.

Okay we can agree on this thats its not impossible for someone else to use the method, its just unlikely. Not so unlikely though since Kakashi himself confessed to being a low chakra capacity ninja and if Yamato is there to prevent Naruto from using the Kyuubi then its likely that this has nothing to do with the fact that Naruto has the Kyuubi inside him. If so its reasonable to think that any ninja with a large amount of chakra and stamina can do this in which case I can think of a few likely candidates. Its just that Kishi has never really given us any details on how other ninjas rank chakra wise, convenient no?

Btw the way those were some fantastic posts. Why don't you do that more often?

[Yukimura]

@The Archangel: Tajuu Kage Buunshin no Jutsu was sealed by the First Hokage and there have definitely been wars since then.

What I would really like to know where the "you get your chakra back when a clone dispells" idea comes from, has there been any actual evidence that this or is it pure speculation to try and avoid the idea that Naruto has been shown to survive, and even continue fighting with only:
(Naruto's # of base chakra units - 1000 * the cost of a shadow clone)/1000 units of chakra.

It boggles my mind too, but I don't remember anything that implied that he was getting chakra back after blowing it on clones that did nothing.

[Abdula]

True it was never implied infact the exact opposite was implied but what the hell. With Kishi and especially where Naruto and Sasuke are concerned anything and everything is possible until you're explicitly told that it isn't. If its one thing I've learned, its that.

I don't think you were getting the chakra back though since nothing like that was mentioned, all that was said that when the technique is dispelled the information and experiences of the clone are transferred to the user. I don't think the chakra the clones had remaining is given back because that would negate the risk of the technique which is loosing your chakra so there would be no reason for it to be a forbidden technique. Anyway this could just be yet another reason why Naruto being the only one able to use this technique is implausible.

[Jessper]

Okay we can agree on this thats its not impossible for someone else to use the method, its just unlikely. Not so unlikely though since Kakashi himself confessed to being a low chakra capacity ninja and if Yamato is there to prevent Naruto from using the Kyuubi then its likely that this has nothing to do with the fact that Naruto has the Kyuubi inside him. If so its reasonable to think that any ninja with a large amount of chakra and stamina can do this in which case I can think of a few likely candidates. Its just that Kishi has never really given us any details on how other ninjas rank chakra wise, convenient no?


Even if Kakashi is a low chkara capacity ninja we should be able to assume that the figure he gave Naruto of three times is normal (seems reasonable? Having a third of normal is more than what I would consider low). Then when he said that with the Kyuubi he has one hundred times the chakra it should be obvious the ability to do this scale of training is directly related to the Kyuubi.

I'll add to the motion of this being a great episode, even with the action to keep the ADD kiddies busy.

[Abdula]

But before when Naruto injured Sakura, Yamato implied that they were going to teach Naruto to no longer rely on the Kyuubi and he said the very reason he is there is so that Naruto wouldn't be using the Kyuubi's chakra, so having this training be reliant on the Kyuubi is contradictory.

[Kusanagi]

But before when Naruto injured Sakura, Yamato implied that they were going to teach Naruto to no longer rely on the Kyuubi and he said the very reason he is there is so that Naruto wouldn't be using the Kyuubi's chakra, so having this training be reliant on the Kyuubi is contradictory.


Exactly, they're not using Kyuubi's chakra, just Naruto's. So why didn't Kakashi make him do this earlier.

[Jessper]

I got the impression that it wasn't shutting the Kyuubi out completely, but rather avoiding the fox shroud. Also, it seemed to me that they were worried that if Naruto became worn out the Kyuubi might be awakened, not simply that he would use the Kyuubi chakra. Not saying I'm right but this is what I got out of it. What do you think?

[Sam98034]

I think the Kyuubi chakra will come into play. But for recovery though. Lets say Kakashi tried the same thing, made 1000 clones and trained. Then say after a half-hour, he was tired and exhausted and had to rest the whole day. Technically he accomplished the same thing as just training all day then resting after he was exhausted. He wouldn't be accomplishing much by using the clones. Naruto on the other hand could maybe keep 1000 going for two hours and then rest for like 1 hour and go back to training. Not exactly in these amounts, but this concept. Remember, it's not only his huge chakra, it's his ability to recover. Naruto could probably train all day and still not be out of stamina. However if he used up all he could quickly, then rested, and repeated, it would probably work out well.

[Assertn]

Exactly, they're not using Kyuubi's chakra, just Naruto's. So why didn't Kakashi make him do this earlier.
Kakashi came up with the idea while he was resting in the hospital.

[Kraco]

Besides, earlier Kakashi was mainly concentrating on training Sasuke. Then Naruto left with Jiraiya (and learned absolutely nothing). Now Sasuke is getting quality teaching from Oro, so Kakashi finally has the oppor... Nah, now Kakashi finally is forced to train Naruto. But he's a clever man to come up with a teaching technique like this. No wonder he's called a master of techniques.

[Uchiha Barles]

*If a mod sees this, delete this post, I accidently posted in the thread what should've been a PM*

[Archangel]

Exactly, they're not using Kyuubi's chakra, just Naruto's. So why didn't Kakashi make him do this earlier.

No, naruto is definitely using the Kyuubi's chakra, that's why yamato is there, to stop the kyubi from coming out during the training. I mean looks at the number of clones that naruto is using, if kakashi just said he had about 4 times his chakra and he can only handle a couple of shadow clones at the same time...

[Goran]

Finally registered after reading for years just because I had to mention this, since it hasn't been brought up. Everyone keeps mentioning Yamato. Did no one else catch this:

132

Maybe it is in the translation, but the way the sentence is formatted and Kakashi is also speaking while looking directly at <whoever it really is behind him> really makes me think this isn't Yamato. Kakashi is even acknowledged with a nod back and the way "Yamato" looks in this scene even has the demeanor of Jiraiya. I would have expected something like, "How the hell did Jiraiya-sama teach this kid a technique like Rasengan? Unbelievable..." if he wasn't speaking TO Jiraiya. If it is Jiraiya, this brings up all kinds of weird questions.

[Archangel]

...??

Wow that's one crazy theory dude. Kinda goes boinkers after you realize that u saw yamato using wood jutsu but nice try lol :D

If you watch bleach too pls go here (http://forums.gotwoot.net/showthread.php?t=15704) i'd love to hear more of those crazy theories

Btw it's not that weird using sama when talking about jiraya, he's one of the legendary sanin after all

[Goran]

...??

Wow that's one crazy theory dude. Kinda goes boinkers after you realize that u saw yamato using wood jutsu but nice try lol :D



The wood technique is why I said it brings up all kinds of weird questions. Kind of why I mentioned the translation, hoping maybe someone can verify just how this line is said and if DB could have been a little off. The other reason this scene stuck with me in regards to the wood technique, have we really ever seen what makes Jiraiya-sama ( :D ) so legendary? (outside of just being in the same group as the other two; I really can't remember, if so, remind me) All I can think of is Rasengan and the summons, both of which Naruto can do right now. The list of techniques that Oro can do puts Jiraiya-sama to shame, from what I can recall of his techniques.

[Jessper]

Btw it's not that weird using sama when talking about jiraya, he's one of the legendary sanin after all

What does this have to do with anything?

As far as that scene I saw it and went over it twice because of that. I came to the conclusion that they wanted Kakashi to be making sure Naruto couldn't hear him (talking to the side) and talking to himself. The way he phrases it is not strange if he isn't talking to someone.

[Goran]

What does this have to do with anything?

He was saying it's not weird to use the "sama" while using his name, here. At least that's what I took from it. :confused:


As far as that scene I saw it and went over it twice because of that. I came to the conclusion that they wanted Kakashi to be making sure Naruto couldn't hear him (talking to the side) and talking to himself. The way he phrases it is not strange if he isn't talking to someone.

That's what I thought when I first watched it, too. Just kind of wondering after all the training Jiraiya-sama has done with Naruto that he'd be there, as well. He's always taught Naruto the more advanced techniques. Jiraiya is around since he was with Kakashi in the hospital. (I'm too lazy to look for the last episode we saw him, did he say he was going anywhere?) But I do fully admit it's a way-out-there theory.

[Jessper]

He was saying it's not weird to use the "sama" while using his name, here. At least that's what I took from it. :confused:


No one mentioned it being weird until he did lol.

[Archangel]

That's the kind of theory i like :D


He was saying it's not weird to use the "sama" while using his name, here. At least that's what I took from it.

Yes, that was what i was saying

As for what makes him so legendary you have to think of him as the "naruto" in that group, he can pull off some amazing stuff but generally he just sucks in comparison to the other 2

[redcat]

Finally registered after reading for years just because I had to mention this, since it hasn't been brought up. Everyone keeps mentioning Yamato. Did no one else catch this:

132

Maybe it is in the translation, but the way the sentence is formatted and Kakashi is also speaking while looking directly at <whoever it really is behind him> really makes me think this isn't Yamato. Kakashi is even acknowledged with a nod back and the way "Yamato" looks in this scene even has the demeanor of Jiraiya. I would have expected something like, "How the hell did Jiraiya-sama teach this kid a technique like Rasengan? Unbelievable..." if he wasn't speaking TO Jiraiya. If it is Jiraiya, this brings up all kinds of weird questions.
no. he is figuratively asking Jiraiya. It was hypothetical.

[DarthEnderX]

You know what bugged me about this episode?

Finding out that Chidori is a lighning element technique.

I know that seems stupid just by looking at it, its obviously electrical.

But in the ENTIRE series, nobody every once mentioned that it was in any way electrical. Every explanation was that it was just like this explosion of raw chakra.

In fact, back when they were still calling it the Lightning Edge, someone asked why it was called that, and Gai said it was because he once used it to cut a lightning bolt.


....really? Are you sure it's not called that because it's a goddamn blade of electricity?

I mean, it almost seems like a retcon at this point.

It boggles my mind too, but I don't remember anything that implied that he was getting chakra back after blowing it on clones that did nothing.No, I think this is exactly whats shown to happen.

Almost every fight Naruto gets into he starts out the by making 10-20 clones. Which immediately get destroyed. If his chakra is split evenly amoung them, if he wasn't getting that chakra back when they died, it would mean he was using up 90-95% of his chakra in the first 30 seconds of every battle he's ever had.

Obviously, it takes some chakra to create and maintain the clones, but his chakra supply that is divided amoung the clones will return to him unless the clones themselves use that chakra on Ninjitsu.

It's basically just a plot device for limiting what techniques a clone can use.

For example, if Kakashi has enough chakra to use Chidori 4 times a day, and he makes 10 clones, then each of those clones has 10% of his total chakra, it means none of those clones has the 25% chakra needed to perform Chidori.

And I think thats why in high level fights like Oro vs. 3rd, they say things like "shadow clones would only be useless here and waste chakra". While having more of you should always be useful, if none of them hold enough of your chakra to use your highest level techniques, then yes, they aren't always going to be worth using.

This is just one of those things in Naruto that used to not make sense to me and now it's completely clear.

[Abdula]

Yes, that was what i was saying

As for what makes him so legendary you have to think of him as the "naruto" in that group, he can pull off some amazing stuff but generally he just sucks in comparison to the other 2
He is not the Naruto of the group, and Jiraiya is the most highly regarded of the three and the only one of them who is a sage. Proof of this is that Itachi and Kisame were unwilling to take him on directly even though Itachi was said to have already defeated Orochimaru. Btw Jiraiya doesn't suck in comparison to the others, none of them do but if you had to pick one it would be Tsunade simply because she is a woman and Kishi doesn't seem to be fond of strong women. I don't know how you could ever think that the guy who trained the fourth Hokage sucks. We just haven't seen any of what Jiraiya can do yet, same goes for almost every other character in the series that isn't named Naruto. I mean we didn't even see anything out of Oro worthy of his reputation until his battle with four tailed Naruto and it was already shown that Jiraiya too had an encounter with four tails.


You know what bugged me about this episode?

Finding out that Chidori is a lighning element technique.

I know that seems stupid just by looking at it, its obviously electrical.

But in the ENTIRE series, nobody every once mentioned that it was in any way electrical. Every explanation was that it was just like this explosion of raw chakra.

In fact, back when they were still calling it the Lightning Edge, someone asked why it was called that, and Gai said it was because he once used it to cut a lightning bolt.


....really? Are you sure it's not called that because it's a goddamn blade of electricity?

I mean, it almost seems like a retcon at this point.
__________________________________________________ __________________
No, I think this is exactly whats shown to happen. Almost every fight Naruto gets into he starts out the by making 10-20 clones. Which immediately get destroyed. If his chakra is split evenly amoung them, if he wasn't getting that chakra back when they died, it would mean he was using up 90-95% of his chakra in the first 30 seconds of every battle he's ever had.

Obviously, it takes some chakra to create and maintain the clones, but his chakra supply that is divided amoung the clones will return to him unless the clones themselves use that chakra on Ninjitsu.

It's basically just a plot device for limiting what techniques a clone can use.

For example, if Kakashi has enough chakra to use Chidori 4 times a day, and he makes 10 clones, then each of those clones has 10% of his total chakra, it means none of those clones has the 25% chakra needed to perform Chidori.

And I think thats why in high level fights like Oro vs. 3rd, they say things like "shadow clones would only be useless here and waste chakra". While having more of you should always be useful, if none of them hold enough of your chakra to use your highest level techniques, then yes, they aren't always going to be worth using.

This is just one of those things in Naruto that used to not make sense to me and now it's completely clear.

First half of your post, simple answer is yes it was said to be lightning, multiple times even atleast in the manga anyway, will have to rewatch the earlier parts of the anime to be sure but I think it was mentioned there as well. As for the "lightning edge" part I think the translation there was pretty bad as "lightning edge" doesn't refer to something that is made of lightning but something that is used to cut lightning which is why they asked why it had that name.

As to the last part of your post hopefully this will put things to rest but it was said that the risk of using the shadow clone technique is that your chakra is divided up between your clones. If the chakra was returned to the user then there would be no risk, since the chakra would be returned to the user. Also if the chakra is returned then there would be no reason why other people couldn't use the technique.

Then ofcourse there is this, if anyone remembers when Jiraiya was first teaching Naruto to use summoning he told him to get rid of all his normal blue chakra because he needed to use the red chakra for the technique. What Naruto proceeded to do was use shadow clones to use up most of his chakra and he then had a taijutsu battle with the clones to use up his stamina which as was explained before can be used to provide more chakra. After using the clones he was out of chakra and after fighting with them he was out of stamina so he was completely empty which is why he was only able to summon tadpoles because although he was empty he still didn't know "how" to access the Kyuubi's chakra which is why Jiraiya threw him off a cliff, hehehe that is still funny. Its just that as was mentioned numerous times before on this forum, in this thread and others, the rules Kishi establishes for his world often don't apply to either Naruto or Sasuke.

-Btw the way as to the elemental thing I hope that this didn't come as much of a shock to any of you since most of you should have figured that out by now. I mean with everyone going around saying fire style, water style, wind style etc it shouldv'e been obvious. Kishi pretty much gave it away in the beginning when he said there were five kages and each of them represented a specific element, Hokage-Fire, Mizukage-Water, Raikage-Lightning, Tsuchikage-Earth and Kazekage-Wind.

[Archangel]

We just haven't seen any of what Jiraiya can do yet, same goes for almost every other character in the series that isn't named Naruto. I mean we didn't even see anything out of Oro worthy of his reputation until his battle with four tailed Naruto and it was already shown that Jiraiya too had an encounter with four tails.


Well we've seen him in action against oro in the tsunade arc and although he was under the effect of the drug he was fighting a armless oro and he definitely lost that fight. Also while he got his ass kicked by four tail naruto oro did pretty well against him and, in your own words, he was merely playing with naruto abdula. Imo he's definitely the naruto of the group.

[Abdula]

Well we've seen him in action against oro in the tsunade arc and although he was under the effect of the drug he was fighting a armless oro and he definitely lost that fight. Also while he got his ass kicked by four tail naruto oro did pretty well against him and, in your own words, he was merely playing with naruto abdula. Imo he's definitely the naruto of the group.

I beg you to use your brain, none of them did any good in that battle because they were all inhibited in one way or another, Jiraiya most of all since he couldn't mold his chakra to use any techniques(basically the same thing that happened to Naruto when Oro put the seal on him, and we all saw how Naruto performed against Kiba because of it) and you should have noticed this in Oro's battle with Naruto because even though Oro didn't have his arms back then most of his techniques, including his body transfer technique interestingly enough, don't require hand signs. The only time I remember seeing Oro use hand signs is for various summonings, Manda, Edo Tensei and Rashomon. Other than that the only time I can think of where he used them is when he put the curse seal on Sasuke. Jiraiya is believed to be the strongest of the Sannin while Oro is known as the most talented and fearsome, and Tsunade is the gifted healer.

Plus seeing as you like to call people stupid or retarded I would think that you would atleast think about what you post. Naruto, smacked Oro around, burnt him, smashed him, even cut him in half and Oro got out of all of that because he is immortal(the very reason why he can play around with Naruto) anyone of those injuries would have killed or immobilized any normal person. Just look at the effect coming into contact with the Kyuubi's chakra had on Sakura. Jiraiya is not immortal yet all he received is one injury, albeit a major one. its also important to note that how Jiraiya would fight Naruto and how Oro would fight Naruto would be completely different because as Jiraiya said he didn't want to harm Naruto anymore than the Kyuubi itself was already doing. So it would be exceptionally difficult to fight something like four tailed Naruto while not trying to hurt him at all.

[DarthEnderX]

As to the last part of your post hopefully this will put things to rest but it was said that the risk of using the shadow clone technique is that your chakra is divided up between your clones. If the chakra was returned to the user then there would be no risk, since the chakra would be returned to the user. Also if the chakra is returned then there would be no reason why other people couldn't use the technique. My explanation explains that statement just as well. And also manages to neatly explain why Naruto isn't wasting 90% of his chakra every battle.

I mean, at the beginning of every fight, Naruto summons clones, and they get killed in seconds. If all the chakra is split evenly, it means he just lost almost all of his chakra doing that.

Is your implication seriously that Naruto would have 10-20x his chakra in these fights if he just didn't use Shadow Clones?

I'm sorry, but this line of thinking just isn't supported mathamatically by the series. Especially when he goes on to using his most powerful techniques most of the time AFTER using a shit-ton of clones.

[Uchiha Barles]

Mathematically speaking, very little of what we're talking about is supported by the series. Including whether or not Naruto gets chakra back from clones being dispelled. I do agree however, based on what's been shown and what you argued, a reasonable assumption would be that he does. Not getting that chakra back would be a nice limitation though.

I do have a gripe with this though. Kage bunshin is an absurdly powerful techinique. Each clone is real, and each clone can perform any technique that the original user can, provided the clone has enough chakra to do so. For example, Naruto's been shown to use his kyubi kao ken attack with a zillion clones out against kimimaro (never mind that he did jack shit with it - I choose to regard that as an inconsistancy in the writing). Imagine what happens if Naruto at some point learns to do the rasengan with one hand and improves his taijutsu. What happens if gains some mid distance/ long range distance skills (think a powered up version of the ninja stars and ninja knives he threw at gaara when he had all those clones).

Hell, look at what the third did: Defeated 2 former kages, both of whom were his instructors at some point, using the absurdly powerful sealing technique of the fourth. I'm of the belief that if Oro had not summoned those two, he would not have won, even if the third was old as hell.

I think that kage bunshin being this powerful, and THIS easy to learn (you know, Naruto learned all by himself, it can't be that hard), is why it found itself in the scroll of forbidden techniques. You can't have everyone and their moms running around knowing this skill.

In any event, they really need to get to the details of the technique. It's central to the main characters strategies, and going forward, he will increase in power exponentially for every new technique he learns on account of his mastery of kage bunshin. They need to lay down some ground rules, and maybe some limitations, before they have to go back and ignore rules that were previously established by implication.

[Yukimura]

I can't believe we're arguing about limitations on the amount of 'power' a shounen hero has available using concepts like math and limitations... You should know by now that a shounen character who should be completely out of energy by logic is never actually going to run out of energy. It is not meant to imply that he always had more energy, it just means he did a shounen hero power up and just pulled energy out of the vacuum of plot.

What I see wrong with the explanations claiming that Naruto must get his chakra back is that they only rely on the absurdity of the idea that Naruto can use 90% his energy and then proceed to use 90% of his energy again 5 minutes later to essentially the same effect.

In the interest of sanity I understand that an explanation need be found though. My way of sleeping at night is to believe Naruto simply regenerates energy at an incredible rate, meaning that it only takes him moments to generate the maximum amount of chakra that his body can hold without using.

I want to state for the record that the following is just how I think about it, none of this has true canonical backing, but it does fit a bunch of what we've been told before.

This is how I like to think of ninja chakra, a given ninja's body can hold and work with no more than X amount of chakra at one time. This means that they normally can't do a technique that requires more than X chakra to complete because they can't put more than that much out in one burst.

Independant of X, is a ninja's chakra refill rate, Y, which is how quickly stamina can be converted into additional chakra when the needs arises. Watching the show seems to support the idea that Naruto's Y is so high enough that a fresh and rested Naruto can produce his X amount of chakra in almost no time at all.

The final component is a ninja's upper limit on chakra output in a given day, Z. This number most likely corresponds with how much stamina one has available to turn into more chakra. A ninja's chakra can be replenished at rate Y but there is a physical limitation on how long a body can sustain Y at it's maximum level. As one gets more and more tired from producing chakra Y will decreases and it will reach 0 once Z chakra has been generated without sufficient rest. I think at this point you either die or become immobile.


With this system it is conceivable that Naruto's X,Y, and Z numbers could allow him to waste huge percentages of his X, then refill immediately with an above average Y, and not have to worry about running out too soon due to an above average Z.

I took Kakashi's explanation about Naruto having 3 times more chakra than him to mean Naruto's Z number is 3 times higher than Kakashi's, implying he has the potential to generate and spend the same amount of chakra as Kakashi for 3 times as long. On the other hand I wouldn't be comfortable saying that Naruto has a higher X number than Kakashi because of the ease with which Kakashi uses high level techniques in a short period of time.

[Uchiha Barles]

Awww, now look what you've done Yuki, you went ahead officially made into a geek fest something that was only bordering on it....I'm in!

I prefer the simpler explanation for chakra and it's usage. Each person has a certain amount of chakra at any given time. Like, if Naruto and Kakashi have not been using chakra, and Kakashi says "you have four times the chakra I have", then that's how much chakra Naruto has at that moment.

The amount of chakra that can be outputted by a ninja is determined by whatever biological system that transfers chakra out of the body. To illustrate what I mean, take an electrical signal generated by a neuron. The signal is propagated by a change in the concentration of ions along the neuron (very simplistically speaking). Once a signal has been passed, another one cannot pass until until the ion concentrations return to their "pre-signal" concentrations. The speed at which this happens depends on the person (again, simplistically speaking). A similar thing could explain why one person is able to output more chakra than another. Maybe the number of outlets from which chakra can leak differs by ninja. Maybe there's strain associated with leaking out chakra, and the amount of strain that the chakra vessels can take also varies per person. A combination of these two would explain why training on the rasengan made Naruto's hand numb and blistered and what not.

So basically, this takes the X variable you mentioned and makes it static over short periods of time, by making the Y function determine that chakra replenishes at a much slower rate. The Z function would be a determined by the specifics I speculated on in the previous paragraph.

Now, as far as using the fact that this is a shonen story to excuse that these characters get "shonen hero power ups", is not something I sit well with. The reason is, Hunter x Hunters does this crap MUCH better. You are hard pressed to find anything that's happened to any character in the story that doesn't fit into the system they established in the beginning. If you consider Kurapica's eyes, he's an exception, and his exception still makes use of the nen system in a way that doesn't make you call "bullshit". The hero power ups are well there. The hero power ups in this anime leave much to be desired. HxH shows us things don't have to be the way they are. In fact, I'll throw on some twisted sister right now..."we're not gonna take it! NO!"

One more edit: What makes it worse, is that the series gives a pretense of explaining these things to us. If you're gonna bother with an explanation, make it good. Otherwise, DBZ it, you don't hear anyone who like DBZ complaining about a lack of explanation, because the series doesn't even try.

[Archangel]

I'm not one to write a 100 word post so i'll just say that i agree with baries except about "shonen hero power ups" since this show explains it better than any other just by the simple fact that naruto has a never ending supply of chakra within him courtesy of the nine tail as well as amazing regeneration. It's a crappy explanation but one that can be used at any time naruto feels like doing something cool.

[Abdula]

The amount of chakra that can be outputted by a ninja is determined by whatever biological system that transfers chakra out of the body. To illustrate what I mean, take an electrical signal generated by a neuron. The signal is propagated by a change in the concentration of ions along the neuron (very simplistically speaking). Once a signal has been passed, another one cannot pass until until the ion concentrations return to their "pre-signal" concentrations. The speed at which this happens depends on the person (again, simplistically speaking). A similar thing could explain why one person is able to output more chakra than another. Maybe the number of outlets from which chakra can leak differs by ninja. Maybe there's strain associated with leaking out chakra, and the amount of strain that the chakra vessels can take also varies per person. A combination of these two would explain why training on the rasengan made Naruto's hand numb and blistered and what not.

So basically, this takes the X variable you mentioned and makes it static over short periods of time, by making the Y function determine that chakra replenishes at a much slower rate. The Z function would be a determined by the specifics I speculated on in the previous paragraph.

I agree with this since most of what you say is actually supported in one way or another by facts from the show. So Yuki's formula and your theory could technically explain everything but it really doesn't mean much if Kishi doesn't explain it himself. Besides like Archangel said there is also the BS factor to consider.

[Archangel]

I agree with this since most of what you say is actually supported in one way or another by facts from the show. So Yuki's formula and your theory could technically explain everything but it really doesn't mean much if Kishi doesn't explain it himself. Besides like Archangel said there is also the BS factor to consider.

Lol correct you are Abdula. We can come up with any rational and plausible theories to as how naruto can pull off such amazing shit and still suck on a daily bases but the fact still remains that the chakra system works like kakashi says so weather it makes sense or not.

And if you want some more info to mess with your head, remember how naruto pulled off a massive army of shadow clones while he had just learned the technique only to have the number drastically reduced till his fight with gaara. And no, that first episode wasn't the pilot, i've read the actual pilot and believe it or not it makes even less sense XD

[KrayZ33]

And if you want some more info to mess with your head, remember how naruto pulled off a massive army of shadow clones while he had just learned the technique only to have the number drastically reduced till his fight with gaara. And no, that first episode wasn't the pilot, i've read the actual pilot and believe it or not it makes even less sense XD


what do you mean by that Oo?

he learned the technique and was able to do the "mass shadow-clone technique" because he was angry -> nine-tails -> mass-chakra
It's a given that the nine-tails gives chakra to Naruto whenever he feels hatred. I think it was even explained by some minor-character.

the only thing that is weird is that he was actually able to LEARN the technique at all.. why is he able to learn kage-bushin if he couldn't even use the normal one.

[Mizuchi]

Although, I never understood why the Fire Country's village was a leaf. Leaves are, like, the opposite of fire...

because the village is hidden by leaves.

To answer the question of how it would be a waste to do shadow clones if the techniques desired required small amounts of chakra:

Even though the chakra is returned to the main body when the clone is defeated, the original user doesn't necesarily get 100% of his chakra back, because kage bunshin is indeed a jutsu in itself and requires chakra to perform.

So if if naruto has 100 chakra points, and makes one clone, each clone doesn't have 50 points, but rather naruto first spent 2 chakra points performing the jutsu, giving each himself and the clone 49 points.

[Assertn]

Yes yes we already went through all this....

[Mizuchi]

Yes yes we already went through all this....

Just making sure.

[DarthEnderX]

You can always tell when Naruto is expressly using the Fox's chakra because his eyes turn red.

Otherwise, he's just using his own natural chakra, which is still 4x Kakashi's.

[Sam98034]

Well think of it like this maybe. When Naruto makes one clone, he does actually work and control that clone. Because he has to use part of his energy to control that clone he is limited to his energy, meaning Naruto is now only capable of using 50% of his chakra, the other 50% is going towards controlling the other clone. He is not losing any chakra, he is limiting the amount he can use to control the others. Now if he creates a clone, and someone immediately defeats it, Naruto doesn't have to limit himself to control that one, so he has close to all his chakra back. Does that make any sense?

[redcat]

Well think of it like this maybe. When Naruto makes one clone, he does actually work and control that clone. Because he has to use part of his energy to control that clone he is limited to his energy, meaning Naruto is now only capable of using 50% of his chakra, the other 50% is going towards controlling the other clone. He is not losing any chakra, he is limiting the amount he can use to control the others. Now if he creates a clone, and someone immediately defeats it, Naruto doesn't have to limit himself to control that one, so he has close to all his chakra back. Does that make any sense?
interesting but i think its wrong. neji showed us in ep 60 that there is chakra in all of narutos clones, so he was unable to tell which was the real naruto even with Byakugan.

also, if he was actively controlling his clones, he should have known that he won rock, paper, scissors before the clone was dispelled.

what you described is prolly how normal clones work.

[Sam98034]

His control might be being used subconciously and later returned to his normal memory, otherwise I don't see how exactly they would be able to work together as they have in the past. Maybe he mentally tells them what to do and they listen as well. You do bring up a good point with ep 60 though. Naruto does actually have chakra running through all of the clones. However, his chakra might return when he dispels them. That would explain why they just go poof so quickly, he is dispelling them so that they don't lose much chakra or stamina from getting injured. I only say this because if the converse were actually true, there would never be a reason to ever dispel it. Since the chakra is already gone regardless, it's pointless to dispel 1000 clones. You can atleast let them do yard work or something until they run out of their chakra. So it either takes a bit of work to control them, or he recieves some chakra back from dispelling them.

[Uchiha Barles]

Ok, this stamina thing is killing me. I still don't get it. When I think "stamina", I think endurance. That would be an attribute whose extent depends on a person's muscle and cardiovascular fitness. Can you trade in "endurance" for more chakra? Like, you can generate extra chakra at the expense of becoming more tired? Cuz otherwise, it sounds like you guys are talking about stamina as if it was this thing of substance, tangible, like you can measure it with a cup or something. It also seems as if you guys are talking about it like "you can trade 3 ounces of stamina for 1 ounce of chakra". Which is the case here? And whatever the case, what in the anime or manga makes you believe this? Because after going over all the posts talking about stamina, I still don't get it.

[Abdula]

Yes when we say stamina we are actually talking about endurance etc although stamina is how they refer to it in the show. Yes, it does depend on a person's muscle and cardiovascular fitness as it was said that characters like Gai and Lee have exceptional stamina. Though I'm not sure of the exchange rate you can indeed "trade in" your stamina for chakra if need be. Much like with shadow clones and everything else not much was actually mentioned about it other than what was already stated. Kishi has yet to explain exactly how that one works aswell.

[Sam98034]

And Naruto's stamina has a lot to do with his ability to replenish it quicker than most due to the *healing* powers of the kyuubi. This gives him like a second wind, third wind, and fourth wind. I'm not sure about how the conversion works either. There might not even be one. For most it might work like this, by the time they run out of chakra, they are exhausted and out of stamina as well. So their body needs to rest, replenishing their body first (stamina) then chakra. In Naruto's case since he has a extraordianry stamina since the kyuubi is healing his body constantly, he still has plenty of stamina after his chakra is all gone, so while he is running around using no ninja skills, just tai jutsu, his chakra is replenishing itself. This can make it seem like he has an enormous amount of chakra when in fact he has an ok amount that just keeps replenishing itself. The kyuubi chakra is extraordinary, but his is maybe just above average.

Imagine an rpg where you face two bosses, one has 1000 hp and the other has 2000hp. But the one with 1000hp has reagen (spl?) on it and heals 100 hp each round while you're hitting at 120. Boss one takes 50 hits, while the other takes less than 20. And when you miss on boss one, it negates your last 5 hits. While boss one has 1000 hp it feels like 6000+ hp. However if you can hit at 800, boss one is easier. In Naruto's case though the finishing blow actually takes him down to 1 hp instead of killing him afterwhich he transforms into a beast with 100000hp.

So stamina might not be getting converted to chakra, its just that with enough of it, your body can just focus on regaining chakra and not on healing itself. Just a thought.

[Kraco]

I'm nowhere near you guys' level of expertise in this matter, but to me it seems strange stamina and chakra even could be totally separate from each other. It's the same body that produces both, so obviously both the chakra capacity and the regen rate depend on the condition of the body, and the condition of the body is also directly responsible for the stamina the person has. Stamina is also affected by the willpower, not just the muscle and cardiovascular fitness, as those who have suitable experience and training know. Some people just don't have the balls to take as much punishment as others before feeling they can't take it anymore, but I suspect in a ninja village such attitude would be removed, and people are trained to run till they drop dead.

In any case, as long as we aren't talking about some freaky mutant, a person with high stamina should also have lots of chakra and a high chakra regeneration rate. I even dare say Kakashi would have more stamina and chakra if he used more time training like his arch rival Gai and less time reading icha icha paradise...

[shinta|hikari]

Much like how Lee has incredible stamina so he has tons of chakra.

EDIT: Oh it was a chakra defect, my bad.

[Abdula]

I even dare say Kakashi would have more stamina and chakra if he used more time training like his arch rival Gai and less time reading icha icha paradise...
Yeah I remember back during the chuunin exam when he was about to teach Sasuke the chidori he was climbing a cliff one handed and he mentioned he was training to improve his stamina. I would imagine that he was doing alot of training during the time skip as well seeing as he is able to use MS 3 times in one day along with extended use of the sharingan and raikiri and all so he definitely improved alot in that regard.

[KrayZ33]

When I think "stamina", I think endurance. That would be an attribute whose extent depends on a person's muscle and cardiovascular fitness. Can you trade in "endurance" for more chakra? Like, you can generate extra chakra at the expense of becoming more tired?

Its probably the same as it is in Fate/Stay Night

When Shirou was fighting Rin, he had no magical energy (chakra) left, but he still was able to run and not even a bit exhausted (because he trained his body very well)
Rin, who had lots of magical energy left (because she trained her magic circuit very well), was exhausted because they ran so much.



When Shirou fought Archer in the game... he reproduced his swords more than just 8 times (which is his limit, like kakashi is able to do his chidori only 4 times for example, shirou can only reproduce a certain amount of swords)
Well he kept reproducing and reproducing and his body was tearing apart from the side effects because his Magic Circuit (chakra circuit) was totally overused.
So he forced his body and created magic (chakra) and was able to defeat him, while his body was totally destroyed (a side effect much like in naruto)

so if you have high stamina (yes, endurance is certainly the better word to use, you can still fight, even without chakra/magic)

wasn't it even mentioned in naruto, that it is exactly the same?
You can train the amount of chakra you posses (or at least it grows when you get older, since kakashi said "so 2 chidoris is your limit with your current chakra capacity) and your stamina (endurance). If you overuse your Chakra Limit its said that you will probably die (kakshi said "the third chidori will not happen ok? you will die if you do it!", so its possible even if he is out of chakra) its pretty much the same with Shirou reproducing swords over his limit.

Since Shirou has Saber's scabbard in him, his wounds heal extremely fast, that is why he can reproduce and reproduce more and more swords without dying and endure the pain (also, his willpower to defeat Archer should be considered too)
Isn't it kinda the same with Naruto and the Demon fox? When naruto trained so hard, the demon fox healed the wounds from using too much chakra thats why he didn't feel pain on the next day and was able to train again...

[Uchiha Barles]

Alright, these explanations make better sense, and I'm taking it all these are also speculation. I'm inclined to add this to Kraco and KraZ's interpretation: If the chakra contained in the body is COMPLETELY used up, then they're dead. There's probably some kind of mechanism involved to prevent that from happening, much like the mechanism in place to prevent someone from using more than a certain percentage of the power that the person's muscles can generate. The amount of chakra that is left when the mechanism activates is well above the amount that would cause a ninja to die. With good stamina, it's possible to squeeze out some amount of chakra despite the preventative measure in place, and so long as the ninja doesn't use too much chakra beyond the cut off, or completely empties himself out, then he ought to survive.

Oh...and NOW I think I recall a display of chakra and stamina being linked in the anime. When Sasuke fought in the preliminaries against a ninja that stole his chakra, he seemed to lose stamina as well. The stamina loss might be due to other effects of the technique, but this is the closest I'm recalling.

[KrayZ33]

If the chakra contained in the body is COMPLETELY used up, then they're dead. There's probably some kind of mechanism involved to prevent that from happening, much like the mechanism in place to prevent someone from using more than a certain percentage of the power that the person's muscles can generate. .

Well i think its more like the muscles and organs "need" chakra to work in the first place... since the heart generates it its very likely...

So if the user drains chakra from his muscles and organs, he will suffer heavy damage, from the side effects
Ya, this way if someone uses up all of his chakra, he will die, because his organs, muscles simply everything, will stop functioning.
Thats what I believe is the case.

I think medic-nins infuse chakra to the victims they want to heal.. this is could be wrong though... but well, it does LOOK like they do it ^^
The cells use the extra amount of chakra, provide by the medic, to regenerate themselves faster etc.

[yapchagi]

I wish I could get it from another fansub besides Dattebayo. I always get an error message even if I click on the file (only for these recent widescreen movie files)..Then it will close all open folders :(

Same thing happens to new Bleach movie file codec widescreen version.

[Chiodos]

I really don't have the best answer on that but..

..try search for "Windows Media Player Classic" and "WMPC Codec Package".

Might work out the kinks. If not then...

[Abdula]

Oh...and NOW I think I recall a display of chakra and stamina being linked in the anime. When Sasuke fought in the preliminaries against a ninja that stole his chakra, he seemed to lose stamina as well. The stamina loss might be due to other effects of the technique, but this is the closest I'm recalling.

There are two other examples. One would be when Jirobo trapped Naruto and the others in his clay prison he was sucking up their chakra yet it seems they were loosing all their stamina as well. The other would be when Shikamaru was hit by Tayuya attacks from those spirit like creatures Shikamaru specifically said that he was loosing his stamina when they touched him yet it was said that what the creatures feed on is energy(chakra).