What do you think is best to protect Japan Culture, or any culture?

[David75]

A very interresting discussion started in another thread around that subject.
Many times in the past, cultures have disapeared from various reasons (Mayas for example)

Here we can discuss about Japan and the culture there, and how it's possible to protect it.

Some think that tourism may be a threat, as foreigners impose their cultural background when they stay too long in the country.
I do think that japanese people know very well for themselves how to protect their own culture. They probably do not need any advice at all and they should be the ones to decide for themselves.

Threats I see that are more threatning:
As you know, japan population is getting older and new generations aren't enough in number to ensure Japan's future.
It comes from one fact at least: The country is too cramped. So it imposes quite a high price for food, real estate and all of these kinds of basic need younger generations can attain easily.
So they have to work like crazy for their own living, and having a baby becomes a problem... 2 is almost unthinkable.

To me, the struggle of japan lies more in demography than anythin else.
What do you think?

[Board of Command]

Tourism isn't a threat. Tourists don't stay for a prolonged period of time in one place, so it's very hard for them to impose anything on Japanese culture. They're going over to experience Japan's culture, not to bring to them their own culture.

Plus, there are very few tourists in comparison to the whole population of Japan. It's not as if a third of the people in Japan right now are actually foreigners on vacation.

[Sapphire]

Agreed with above.

[Ryllharu]

All they have to do is preserve their cultural identity with landmarks and maintain traditions like the festivals.

Korea (South anyway) does much of the same, though some asshole who didn't think his welfare check was large enough burned down their oldest building (maintained with the original wood from the 1300s). Despite being saddened by the gate's loss, Korea planned to rebuild it just as it was. Korea has also kept up with there traditional clothing in formal settings, and their dining etiquette remains extreme.

Similarly, Japan just has to ensure it doesn't lose it's own cultural identity in their constant modernization. Yes, they are losing some shrines and temples, and maybe the younger generation doesn't care that much anymore about some of their landmarks, but as long as they try, they can maintain their own identity.

It's well documented that American firebomb squadrons were specifically told not to drop upon Kyoto to preserve the historical significance of the city. So we burned Tokyo to the ground instead.


It's not like it doesn't work both ways either. Despite the influx of Western ideals or ways of life, Japan has its own exports. Hawaii celebrates Obon.


As a natural born of one of the "younger" nations in the world, there are many times I envy countries with deep pasts in history, where your cultural history isn't turned (http://www.salemweb.com/guide/tosee.php) into (http://www.visit-plymouth.com/) a tourist (http://www.gettysburg.com/) trap. (http://www.williamsburg.com/themeParks.cfm?subcategoryID=15)

[rockmanj]

All they have to do is preserve their cultural identity with landmarks and maintain traditions like the festivals.

Korea (South anyway) does much of the same, though some asshole who didn't think his welfare check was large enough burned down their oldest building (maintained with the original wood from the 1300s). Despite being saddened by the gate's loss, Korea planned to rebuild it just as it was. Korea has also kept up with there traditional clothing in formal settings, and their dining etiquette remains extreme.

[/URL]

Yea, the whole Namdaemun incident was pretty sad, the guy that did it tried to burn some other buildings down before; but then again, the social welfare system here doesnt offer many benefits to the older generations here. Hmm...and as for the traditional dress, that's mainly for ceremonies and special holidays, which is still pretty impressive. (I mean, the culture I was born into...sadly most of us don't really have a true 'culture', but I digress). And I'm not sure if its a good thing or not, but there seems to be a lot of things changing here, especially in business practices in the large corporations. Before, there was no way that a junior (in age) could argue any point to a senior, but now that trend is changing, as long as the junior has the evidence to back it up(lots of other tidbits too).

But another thing that I'd like to bring up is...what about other countries besides Japan and Korea. For example, Brasil and the Philippines. There are a surprising number of Japanese there, and even though its a small enclave, we could talk about that. Or actually Ive noticed things in the Philippines in the form of Korean companies (American too) polluting extremely heavily and also treating the people there like shit. I almost got into a fight with some Koreans there over the way they were badmouthing people, and causing random trouble. So, I'm just saying, Wherever anyone goes, just treat the people with the respect you should give to any other person on the planet.

[Animeniax]

One big step to preserving culture is to remove American bases from foreign countries, specifically Japan and Korea, but also Italy, Germany, etc. There's no more need to maintain a military presence there, and the soldiers run amok on the local populace. I'm ashamed to say that the Japanese authorities look the other way to the crimes and bad influence that soldiers perpetrate on their people, in order to protect their political and economic interests. In today's international climate, countries have allies to augment their own national defense forces, so it's not like the US needs to be there to protect them.

I've met a Japanese born in Brazil. Supposedly there's a decent-sized population in Sao Paolo, and they emigrated there after WW2. Beyond being quiet and somewhat reserved, he was not outwardly Japanese at all. He had a Spanish first name, didn't speak Japanese, and as far as I knew he didn't observe any of their culture. He was basically a Brazilian guy of Japanese descent.

[rockmanj]

Well, as for here, the military bases are supposed to be evacuating soon, but I think that the reason the US has military bases in Japan was because after WW2, Japan made an agreement to only have a domestic military force (that's quite small). Im not sure that they need the US military to protect them, but that's what they are ostensibly for.

I'm against Imperialism as much as anyone though.

[Animeniax]

The US is leaving South Korea? That's good news. Next they need to leave Japan and the rest of Southeast Asia. I heard a lot of soldiers were mad that Korea banned skype and internet phones and forced them to purchase state-owned phone cards at a higher rate in order to make calls to the states. Take that, you yankees!

Japan has a self-defense force with 235,000 soldiers and advanced robot technology. They don't need the US to defend them. Any country that messes with them automatically gets denied exports of Playstations and HDtvs in order to foment civil strife in their own countries to destroy them from within. The Japanese don't f*ck around.

[Buffalobiian]

Tourists or not, I think the thing that impacts on culture the most is the media and upbringing of the new generation. Australia for example, is following the global "Americanism" trend not because we have lots of American tourists, or that they come spreading their culture whilst on trip. It's things like television, radio and the sense of nationalism that the government promotes. All of these are, (or were, we just got a new Prime Minister, he's much more heavily influenced by Chinese culture, so we'll see how things turn out) following the US trend. The only thing I can really call Australian here are probably our sport preference, but even that's changing. If the young aren't educated enough about their own culture, that too is lost in them. We learn jack here about Auzzie history for example, until we reach middle high school, and that's if we choose to study history. Sense of cultural identity is lost. Same with the Japanese. Education, not just sheer knowledge, but teaching them early what it IS to be Japanese. Perhaps Australia was a bad example since we don't have such a deep history like many other countries, but that's all I know really.

For an extreme example of cultural identity crises, see Stolen Generation. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_generation)

[rockmanj]

I heard a lot of soldiers were mad that Korea banned skype and internet phones and forced them to purchase state-owned phone cards at a higher rate in order to make calls to the states. Take that, you yankees!

J.

Korea banned skype? that's news to me, as I'm using it right this moment...

[Animeniax]

Korea banned skype? that's news to me, as I'm using it right this moment...
Possibly only for their telecom provider to the US bases. I don't remember what all they banned exactly, just that the US soldiers were pretty upset, some saying sh*t like, "we're here to protect them and they try to screw us by charging us more for phone calls to our families in the states." Boo frickin' hoo.


Tourists or not, I think the thing that impacts on culture the most is the media and upbringing of the new generation.

For an extreme example of cultural identity crises, see Stolen Generation. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_generation)Good points about raising your children to continue their cultural traditions. The "Stolen Generation" example is pretty sad, but I think white Australia has always had a poor record for mistreating the aborigines and the kangaroos.

[Assertn]

Preserving culture? That's like combating evolution...

What about the Middle ages of Europe? Or the early era of Greek and Roman civilization?
Imagine preserving such cultures to the point where they still exist now. How could these cultures coexist with the rest of the modern world? Sure, you could completely wall them off from the rest of the world, but would they be content with that?

Japan's culture evolved into a form that best utilizes western tools, like a free market. By evolving their culture, they are able to keep up with the trends of other 1st world nations. When faced with a global confrontation of falling behind, a country has two choices...
Either join them or oppose them. I see a lot more advantages in joining than opposing.

[Animeniax]

This will touch a few nerves, but look at modern Great Britain. 5% of the population is Indian/Pakistani, that's 5 million out of 50 million to help you grasp the numbers. In another 50 years, it'll probably be at least 30% of the population. To me it's a giant land grab. It's not like the immigrants are adopting the local culture, they just move there and push out the other residents, meanwhile maintaining their own culture. They might pick up a few influences from the locals, but not enough to even joke about calling it assimilation.

Look at the Chinese, they do the same thing. I was in Amsterdam and there's a Chinatown there. You could hardly tell you were in the Netherlands except for the canal and architecture. Signs and shops looked as foreign to the surrounding community as any other Chinatown. Being yellow myself, I felt a sort of quiet dislike coming from the local Dutch, since they thought I was just another Chinaman in their city.

And the white folks aren't free from this cultural mess either. Look at Australia and their treatment of aborigines. And what's happening in Great Britain is sort of their own damn fault, since they originally colonized India. And don't forget what the British (now Americans) did to the Native Americans.

It's a great big mess.

[Kraco]

What about the Middle ages of Europe? Or the early era of Greek and Roman civilization? Imagine preserving such cultures to the point where they still exist now. How could these cultures coexist with the rest of the modern world? Sure, you could completely wall them off from the rest of the world, but would they be content with that?


Those two periods in the European history are still readily visible not only all over Europe but all over the world.

According to the modern thinking only something that develops is viable. Something that doesn't change is actually stagnating and degrading already. The same thing applies for culture in a very strong manner because culture as a concept is an active thing. An empty land doesn't have any culture, a land with totally passive people wouldn't have much of culture either. Culture is created by the people and in order to be created the people must do an active effort. Thus it's very natural for new generations to want to do things their way.

From what I see, there's little danger of culture in Japan disappearing. Some aspects of it will lose importance and may disappear over time but it's same everywhere. And certainly things like anime and manga and their language spreading all over the world won't affect their culture as we see it in a deteriorating manner. The American culture was heavily spread and strenghtened by movies and TV series and the concept of consumerism, and I could imagine the same happening for the Japanese culture when more and more (younger) people around the world consume their entertainment.

But the long story short it would be no good thing for the Japanese if their culture and society was frozen. I think they learned that well enough during the Edo period anyway...

[Animeniax]

But the long story short it would be no good thing for the Japanese if their culture and society was frozen. I think they learned that well enough during the Edo period anyway...How so? Where they culturally stagnant and deprived during the Edo period, before Perry and the west entered their lives? I think they were doing just fine.

[Kraco]

Just fine? Well, to be honest I don't really know how well they were doing culturally during that time but considering how the structures of the society were starting to crumble I think the culture must have suffered as well. If you have an ultra conservative government, it basically means new ideas aren't welcome, which means a stagnant culture.

[Animeniax]

The Edo period marked a time in Japan when they were more concerned with internal restructuring and growth, and wanted to limit external influence on the nation while they dealt with these growing pains. I don't know the history that well, but I think the Edo period began with the ending of strife between clans and warring factions, with rule becoming centralized under the Tokugawa shogunate. A lot of advancements and culturally rich work that are seen today came about during the Edo period, even with the isolationist policy.

I think with a country that has a rich culture, you don't need more influencing in order to grow. That kind of growth will see the culture lose some of its identity. A culturally rich society can continue to grow within the confines of its own rules and influences.

[Kraco]

You lose something and you gain something. Even if we ignore the fact that gaining something is essential for basic prosperity in this global world, it's still a fact not everything coming from outside is bad and not everything inside is good. Some things may be even better lost (like treating women as second class citizens). And unlike the French would have you believe, important aspects of a country's old culture aren't automatically lost under foreign influence. People keep and retain what's important to them and they are proud of it.

I'm not saying there would be no value in artificially maintaining many aspects of the old. That is even very important because modern generations are oft lazy bastards, and culture is also a great part of the past and foundation of a nation.

[Assertn]

I pretty much agree with Kraco on this. The only reason old cultures are lost are because the new cultures are more favorable, whether economically or socially. If you try to prohibit it then you're depriving the people within that culture the opportunity to evolve as well.

Frankly, I think its a little arrogant of us to assume we know whats in the best interests for Japan by insinuating that the degradation of their old culture is a serious problem.

[saman]

i agree. diversity for the most part enriches a culture. if you try to make a particular culture stand still while everything around it changes, then it's just going to stagnate and become less appealing over time. not to mention it fosters intolerance and hostility of other cultures.

also there seems to be this idea that the older and more original a culture, the better, which i disagree with. you gotta move with the times, like they say. values and traditions are just that, and one set isn't any better than the other. identities may be lost in the shift, yes, but new ones are also made.

[David75]

I pretty much agree with Kraco on this. The only reason old cultures are lost are because the new cultures are more favorable, whether economically or socially. If you try to prohibit it then you're depriving the people within that culture the opportunity to evolve as well.

Frankly, I think its a little arrogant of us to assume we know whats in the best interests for Japan by insinuating that the degradation of their old culture is a serious problem.

That's it. Really.

And I reiterate my question:
Don't you think Demography is one of the most important problems Japan has to face?
No people, no culture...

[darkshadow]

I was in Amsterdam and there's a Chinatown there. You could hardly tell you were in the Netherlands except for the canal and architecture. Signs and shops looked as foreign to the surrounding community as any other Chinatown. Being yellow myself, I felt a sort of quiet dislike coming from the local Dutch, since they thought I was just another Chinaman in their city.

Haha, oh please, you just spoke like a real tourist.

[rockmanj]

T
Don't you think Demography is one of the most important problems Japan has to face?
No people, no culture...


Thats an interesting question that could be interpreted many ways. Are you asking if having a homogeneous demography is a problem, or if adding demographies is a problem? Either way, in the first case, I don't think so, even though there's a big lack of genetic diversity (which really wouldnt cause problems until much later on, barring some sort of super disease) . And in the latter case, I don't see a significant change happening any time soon either.

Actually something interesting about Korea that Animeniax might like...They have made some pretty large reforms to their visa policies, making it harder for foreigners to get jobs here. Now, you have to go through many long processes in order to obtain a visa such as criminal checks from every state you have resided in, medical checks, and a high fee, which is good in some ways, but very troublesome (for both parties involved) in others.

[Animeniax]

Haha, oh please, you just spoke like a real tourist.
Care to elaborate, or are content-lacking one-liners all you're good for?


Thats an interesting question that could be interpreted many ways. Are you asking if having a homogeneous demography is a problem, or if adding demographies is a problem? Either way, in the first case, I don't think so, even though there's a big lack of genetic diversity (which really wouldnt cause problems until much later on, barring some sort of super disease) . And in the latter case, I don't see a significant change happening any time soon either.

Actually something interesting about Korea that Animeniax might like...They have made some pretty large reforms to their visa policies, making it harder for foreigners to get jobs here. Now, you have to go through many long processes in order to obtain a visa such as criminal checks from every state you have resided in, medical checks, and a high fee, which is good in some ways, but very troublesome (for both parties involved) in others. I look at the bigger picture when speaking of genetic diversity. If the world is one big mutt race, the same super bug or global change could doom the entire human race. Whereas if we retain our genetic diversity in terms of the different races, then at least one group cold survive a catastrophic event.

Think if the sun started to die out. Darker skinned folks would be in trouble because they can't get enough heat, whereas white folks could survive because of their melatonin-deprived skin. Or vice versa, what if the earth moved closer to the sun, then all of the light-skinned people would get skin cancer and die, whereas the dark-skinned folks would be protected and survive. That's why we need to maintain diversity, instead of trying to introduce it into every population. At some point, there will be no more diversity because everyone will be the same globally, and then we're in trouble.

I do like the sounds of the reforms, and hope Japan follows suit if they aren't already in. I'd like them to end the JET program too. I know Japan already makes it sort of difficult to move there to work in most cases. I think you have to have a 4-year degree.

[Abdula]

Think if the sun started to die out. Darker skinned folks would be in trouble because they can't get enough heat, whereas white folks could survive because of their melatonin-deprived skin. Or vice versa, what if the earth moved closer to the sun, then all of the light-skinned people would get skin cancer and die, whereas the dark-skinned folks would be protected and survive. That's why we need to maintain diversity, instead of trying to introduce it into every population. At some point, there will be no more diversity because everyone will be the same globally, and then we're in trouble.
0_o huh, you should really put more thought into your analogy.

Anyway I agree with Assertn, David and Kraco. Culture is defined by the people and as such there isn't really anyway to protect it, it will naturally change as the people change nothing can be done about that. The nature of culture is to change as the world changes and people adapt to whats happening around them what traditions are upheld and what are left behind is dependent on what value people give it and whether or not they think its necessary in the world they live in. Its sad but nowadays cultures, ideologies, even entire languages are disappearing. With new ideas and technologies the world is just getting smaller and smaller so smaller more rigid isolated cultures are going to disappear and be replaced with bigger more widely accepted ones and sooner or later there is just going to be one major world culture devoid of any real shape, form or value. You could look up hegemonism or hegemony if anyone is interested.

[Animeniax]

0_o huh, you should really put more thought into your analogy.
Why, are you having trouble grasping the concept of my analogy? What part do you need help with?


Anyway I agree with Assertn, David and Kraco. Culture is defined by the people and as such there isn't really anyway to protect it, it will naturally change as the people change nothing can be done about that. The nature of culture is to change as the world changes and people adapt to whats happening around them what traditions are upheld and what are left behind is dependent on what value people give it and whether or not they think its necessary in the world they live in. Its sad but nowadays cultures, ideologies, even entire languages are disappearing. With new ideas and technologies the world is just getting smaller and smaller so smaller more rigid isolated cultures are going to disappear and be replaced with bigger more widely accepted ones and sooner or later there is just going to be one major world culture devoid of any real shape, form or value. You could look up hegemonism or hegemony if anyone is interested.
I'm not against cultures evolving and changing, I'd just like to control what influences these changes. If a country like Japan is influenced by a decadent society like the US, I think that should be minimized or regulated. If a country like Japan evolves with the times and world events, that's only natural.

[David75]

Thats an interesting question that could be interpreted many ways. Are you asking if having a homogeneous demography is a problem, or if adding demographies is a problem? Either way, in the first case, I don't think so, even though there's a big lack of genetic diversity (which really wouldnt cause problems until much later on, barring some sort of super disease) . And in the latter case, I don't see a significant change happening any time soon either.

Actually something interesting about Korea that Animeniax might like...They have made some pretty large reforms to their visa policies, making it harder for foreigners to get jobs here. Now, you have to go through many long processes in order to obtain a visa such as criminal checks from every state you have resided in, medical checks, and a high fee, which is good in some ways, but very troublesome (for both parties involved) in others.

For demography I was refering to number of people.
Japan birth rate is very low. Amongst the lower in the world (if not the lower).
And that is a problem that is already striking Japan society. Japan is growing
to a society of old people. The number of Japanese will eventually decrease.
And as the country is already overcramped, I don't see a solution...

[Animeniax]

For demography I was refering to number of people.
Japan birth rate is very low. Amongst the lower in the world (if not the lower).
And that is a problem that is already striking Japan society. Japan is growing
to a society of old people. The number of Japanese will eventually decrease.
And as the country is already overcramped, I don't see a solution...
I think one solution for this specific issue would be to bring their expatriates back to the homeland. There are strong communities of Japanese in foreign countries, where they are remarkable for absorbing the local culture and assimilating nicely into that culture. This is in stark contrast to other peoples who move into a country and continue living just like they did in their native country, often causing problems for their new hosts. If these foreign-born Japanese moved back to Japan, they could bring positive change to the people and culture, meanwhile keeping it all in the family and helping the population issue.

[rockmanj]

Think if the sun started to die out. Darker skinned folks would be in trouble because they can't get enough heat, whereas white folks could survive because of their melatonin-deprived skin. Or vice versa, what if the earth moved closer to the sun, then all of the light-skinned people would get skin cancer and die, whereas the dark-skinned folks would be protected and survive. That's why we need to maintain diversity, instead of trying to introduce it into every population. At some point, there will be no more diversity because everyone will be the same globally, and then we're in trouble.

I think you have to have a 4-year degree.

I don't know what kind of biology that is, But if the sun started to die out...everyone would start dying; i mean phlyogenetic differences don't really count for surviving in that type of environment; like darker skinned people wouldn't start dying from lack of sunlight; its just that when all the different types of Homo Sapiens moved from Africa, they adopted features that were most suitable to their environments, but that's not to say they couldnt survive anywhere else. And if the earth moves, uhhh..well, that's so ridiculous, I'm not even going to get into that (suffice to say, people would have a lot more to worry about than a bad tan).

And you need a 4 year degree to teach at most places abroad.

Also, are you talking about forcing Japanese expatriates to move back to Japan? If so...well, that's a bit extreme.

[Animeniax]

I don't know what kind of biology that is, But if the sun started to die out...everyone would start dying; i mean phlyogenetic differences don't really count for surviving in that type of environment; like darker skinned people wouldn't start dying from lack of sunlight; its just that when all the different types of Homo Sapiens moved from Africa, they adopted features that were most suitable to their environments, but that's not to say they couldnt survive anywhere else.Well sure everyone would eventually die if the sun dies out, but the darker skinned people would have a harder time adapting to the temperature change and die out sooner. The lighter skinned people would have more time to build a spaceship and fly to another solar system to continue the survival of the human species.

And if the earth moves, uhhh..well, that's so ridiculous, I'm not even going to get into that (suffice to say, people would have a lot more to worry about than a bad tan). The Earth does move. The universe is slowly expanding, causing a shift in the path the Earth takes around the sun. Or a big asteroid could hit the planet and alter our orbit. It's a fact that our moon will one day leave the Earth's orbit, just as the Earth will one day leave the Sun's orbit, but probably not before the sun dies.


And you need a 4 year degree to teach at most places abroad.
Does JET require you have a 4-year degree? It's considered a visitor program, so I don't know if the requirements are the same. It's my understanding that to move to and work in Japan as a resident you need a 4-year degree and competence in your field of work.


Also, are you talking about forcing Japanese expatriates to move back to Japan? If so...well, that's a bit extreme. I'm not saying they should force them back. I'm saying they should make it attractive and appealing for them to want to come back. Free land, tax breaks, an appeal to their cultural or family ties, whatever it takes.

[Kraco]

And as the country is already overcramped, I don't see a solution...


I'm not saying they should force them back. I'm saying they should make it attractive and appealing for them to want to come back. Free land, tax breaks, an appeal to their cultural or family ties, whatever it takes.

Those two things aren't very compatible. If the place already has a higher population density than is good for the people, it's no good solution to increase the population.

The population density of Japan is 337/km², which, according to Wikipedia, makes it the 30th most dense nation. In my expert opinion a good solution would be to ship millions of Japanese to Finland. Finland (338,145 km²) has about the same area as Japan (377,873 km²) but the population density of Finland is only 16/km², making us 161th dense country (and the least dense in the EU). So, practically speaking even if you doubled our total population the density would still be laughable compared to Japan.

And as an extra plus if half of the population of Finland, for example, suddenly was made of people of Japanese origin, it would mean the Japanese culture would not only be preserved in Japan but also in Finland!

[Animeniax]

It's true the population density is high in the urban areas around the major cities, but outside of that, from what I've seen on my travels around Japan, there's plenty of land for additional growth. Unfortunately that will increase urbanization and reduce the amount of nature and beauty of Japan, but that's another issue.

I don't like the idea of Japantown in Finland. Are the two cultures compatible? Would there be any backlash to all of these yellow people "invading" the north? Would the Finnish provide the right or wrong kind of influence on the Japanese culture?

I'd prefer Japan went imperial and took over useless countries like Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam. Someone mentioned the "rape of Nanking" the last time I suggested this, but really they could take over land and resources without that sort of unnecessary violence and genocide, while bringing Japanese innovation and harmony to these people.

[David75]

It's true the population density is high in the urban areas around the major cities, but outside of that, from what I've seen on my travels around Japan, there's plenty of land for additional growth. Unfortunately that will increase urbanization and reduce the amount of nature and beauty of Japan, but that's another issue.

Japan seems to already be very dependant for food for example.
If they urbanize anymore, the problem will even be worse. Will they be able
to sustain their population? To me it's already a huge problem. And access to
basic needs like water, home, food is reduced with higher prices. When you do this,
you reduce younger generations numbers. Because you create a shift in priorities
for young couples: work becomes more important than giving birth. It's not just
a society psychology shift, it's a very basic shift in everyday life where since you
have trouble having your own standards for living, you won't impose that on your
potential children.
It seems Quebec (in Canada) has the exact same pb: having children is a huge
problem for the household, due to what it costs (mother not working AND children
expenses)



I don't like the idea of Japantown in Finland. Are the two cultures compatible? Would there be any backlash to all of these yellow people "invading" the north? Would the Finnish provide the right or wrong kind of influence on the Japanese culture?

Kraco was probably joking/dreaming ;)
Plus I don't see Japanese people liking a cold country like Finland. You have to
have a Finnish spirit to live in such places. I think of the extended winter. It may not
be harsh at first, but in the long run, even Hokkaido japanese may find it difficult.
And then there's always the society acceptance of massive population entering their land.



I'd prefer Japan went imperial and took over useless countries like Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam. Someone mentioned the "rape of Nanking" the last time I suggested this, but really they could take over land and resources without that sort of unnecessary violence and genocide, while bringing Japanese innovation and harmony to these people.
It is usualy one of the real roots for war. Germany (if I remember correctly) used that way of thinking. Japan did in the past too, maybe?

Nowadays, a country like Japan can't resort to such means.

Honestly, I really think Japan has a huge challenge with their population getting older, fewer young generations and no room for increasing natality.
In the end, old generations will need more and more money, more and more people to take care of them. But if the working class is smaller and smaller... what will happen in the end?

what happens in Japan will set basis for all industrialized countries.
Germany is closely following the same pattern.
Some European countries.
The USA may also, UK too.
What Japanese will do will be closely monitored... because if they find acceptable solutions, they may well be adapted everywhere.

[Assertn]

Think if the sun started to die out. Darker skinned folks would be in trouble because they can't get enough heat, whereas white folks could survive because of their melatonin-deprived skin. Or vice versa, what if the earth moved closer to the sun, then all of the light-skinned people would get skin cancer and die, whereas the dark-skinned folks would be protected and survive. That's why we need to maintain diversity, instead of trying to introduce it into every population. At some point, there will be no more diversity because everyone will be the same globally, and then we're in trouble.

Humans are far less prone to evolution than other species. It's not like we're African hunter/gatherers that have to stay out in the sun all day. If it gets to the point where heat is a global problem, then I don't think pigment will save either of us.

Survival of the fittest doesn't apply too well with us, unfortunately, as medical practices aim to give even the most outlier of physical and mental anomalies opportunities to live full lives.
As far as evolution goes, humans have been significantly tarded by their technology (no pun intended).

Although....this really has nothing to do with cultural evolution...

[Sapphire]

I don't really understand the whole sun dying out hypothetical, I mean if the sun died out everyone would die pretty fast because all of our crops would die and we wouldn't have any food, especially in counties that rely on rice and stuff like that for main crops. And even in the more civilized countries solar energy is a big source of energy, so that would help a collapse of civilization. Also darker people don't need the sun (as much as you claim) to survive, they aren't flowers, the higher melanin content merely protects the skin from UV rays, giving them a lesser chance of skin cancer. The only thing that would happen is we would get less Vitamin D and we would have to get it from another source, assuming our crops aren't dead and we haven't been incinerated from the explosion of the sun...?

And assuming we somehow all survive from there being no sun, then our skin would just adapt through microevolution, over years and generations to be paler and more susceptible to some sort of sunlight from some other place, we wouldn't die. D: Besides last time I checked skin color didn't have THAT much effect on heat, and with all the dead crops can't people just make leaf clothing? (And isn't the theory that darker colors -attract- heat and lighter colors deflect it?)(Melanin, not melatonin reacts to light/radiation, not heat)

PS - If the sun moved close enough to the earth that all the white people ended up dying of skin cancer, then I'm sure it would end up with all of the darker colored people dying too because darker skin only means more resistance, not exactly much better protection. lol and if a disease manages to kill most of the world, I would bet it is airborne and doesn't care about your race if it's going to kill you, being as all humans are 99.99 genetically the same anyway. (Unless it is somehow a melanin targeting virus, which I find to be unlikely and would kill everyone anyway because everyone has melanin)

[Dark Dragon]

It's true the population density is high in the urban areas around the major cities, but outside of that, from what I've seen on my travels around Japan, there's plenty of land for additional growth. Unfortunately that will increase urbanization and reduce the amount of nature and beauty of Japan, but that's another issue.

I don't like the idea of Japantown in Finland. Are the two cultures compatible? Would there be any backlash to all of these yellow people "invading" the north? Would the Finnish provide the right or wrong kind of influence on the Japanese culture?

I'd prefer Japan went imperial and took over useless countries like Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam. Someone mentioned the "rape of Nanking" the last time I suggested this, but really they could take over land and resources without that sort of unnecessary violence and genocide, while bringing Japanese innovation and harmony to these people.

So while it is important to Japan to preserve its Culture, it's fine if it take over all of the other "useless" countries because their culture must be equally "useless".

I love the Japanese culture but at the same time you must realize that every culture have its positive and negative. Some of my relatives live in Japan and i can assure you that the Japanese have just as many if not more social issues than the west.

http://www.gaijinsmash.net/ is a blog documenting a JET American English teacher in japan, it is a great website for you and others who think Japan is the equivalent of paradise. It is his personal opinion though so take it with a grain of salt but a lot of the things that he wrote are true so it would be a good idea to read some of his stories.

[Sapphire]

I'm looking at the site, it's hilarious

[rockmanj]

I'd prefer Japan went imperial and took over useless countries like Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam. Someone mentioned the "rape of Nanking" the last time I suggested this, but really they could take over land and resources without that sort of unnecessary violence and genocide, while bringing Japanese innovation and harmony to these people.

What in your opinion makes any other country "useless"? Isn't that a bit high-handed to say that? I hope you weren't being serious there. They may not be the "richest" countries in the world, but I would still think they have a right to exercise their sovereignty...(even if its already heavily influenced by other countries already).

[Animeniax]

@Assertn, Sapphire: you're both taking the sun example too seriously. All I'm saying is, it's better to maintain genetic diversity among the races of humanity in order to increase our chances of survival. If humans on Earth are all the same from excessive intermingling, it will increase the chances that one catastrophe will wipe out our entire species.

@Dark Dragon: actually I'm one of the few Japanese-culture fans who has an understanding of the problems in Japanese society and I don't think they have utopia. I celebrate it for what it is though, and even with its problems, it reigns supreme over the other cultures of the world.

I'd check out the site but I could care less what some white guy from America has to say about a yellow country or its culture. If he doesn't like it, get the f*ck out. We won't miss him.

@rockmanj: My family is actually from one of the countries listed, so I know plenty of people from that area of the world, and their relative worth compared to the Japanese makes them expendable. They've had about the same amount of time as Japan or any other nation in the region to make something of themselves, and here they are in 2008, still third world.

[rockmanj]

@rockmanj: My family is actually from one of the countries listed, so I know plenty of people from that area of the world, and their relative worth compared to the Japanese makes them expendable. They've had about the same amount of time as Japan or any other nation in the region to make something of themselves, and here they are in 2008, still third world.


Well...third world countries...although I like discussing global economic policy, all I'm going to say is that calling people expandable in comparison to another group is..well; in my opinion, quite disgusting. So, if the Japanese decided to just take over their land, and cart them off, or "get rid of the" you would be fine with that?

Did you also feel that the North Atlantice Slave trade was a good idea? Or, for that matter, the seizure of the Americas by Europe; or the Occupation of Korea by the Japanese?

[Animeniax]

Well...third world countries...although I like discussing global economic policy, all I'm going to say is that calling people expandable in comparison to another group is..well; in my opinion, quite disgusting. So, if the Japanese decided to just take over their land, and cart them off, or "get rid of the" you would be fine with that?

Did you also feel that the North Atlantice Slave trade was a good idea? Or, for that matter, the seizure of the Americas by Europe; or the Occupation of Korea by the Japanese?Sacrifices would have to be made by the conquered peoples, to be sure. It's no different than when the Americans kicked out the Native Americans with their manifest destiny. I wouldn't liken it to the African slave trade, unless slaves were taken, which I don't advocate, though east Asia is rife with sweat shops and service-oriented people, so it wouldn't be all that different.

I'm thinking of the big picture, and yes some of the choices we'll have to make to ensure the survival of our species can be considered grotesque or disgusting. It's no worse than when lions turn on their weakest member and kill him in order to ensure the survival of their pride. It's just on a larger scale.

We really are getting away from the discussion of protecting a culture and talking more about expanding the culture's reach and influence, which in a way is part of protecting it.

[Dark Dragon]

@Animeniax

I understand your point of view even though i disagree with it. A country prosperity has a lot to do with how its government work and quite a bit of luck, so lets use the United States and China as examples. The United States is just a little over 200 years old but in that time frame it has become one of the World super power, while China on the other hand is nothing short of an ancient civilization that has survived till modern time but it has always been a very weak country compared to the other world powers until very recently.

If you take a good look at history, you'll see that Japan has a lot of common with the Chinese in term of thinking and their view on government. Southeast Asian countries tend to be very resistant to change and that is why many of them are still considered to be third world. If Japan had never gotten involve with Western Civilization and subsequently lost the war to the US which directly led to the the introduction of Democracy and Capitalism then i seriously doubt Japan would've grow as much as it did in the past 70 years.

So what was the point i was trying to make? While i think the protecting cultural heritage is important, being resistant to positive change will not benefit a country in anyway. So in a way "Evolution through survival of the fittest" as you described it is through interaction with other peoples and assimilate the good from them. I personally think that by enhancing a culture through positive changes, you can protect it more effectively than to let it die out because of some obscure cultural niche passed down by peoples long dead and buried.

FYI: The teach on Gaijinsmash is a black male from Detroit, so it would be good to read his stuff for shit and giggles about how the Japanese react to a 6'3 black male even if you don't take what he says seriously.

[Animeniax]

Actually it seems we agree on the generalities, just not in the details and future goals. What's past is past, it happened and things are the way they are now which is fine. The goal is how to control what will happen in the future for a country like Japan. It is modern and it is advanced due to war and loss and Western influence. That's fine, but the West is in decline, so how much bad influence will it now have on the Japanese?

I don't think countries should be resistant to positive change, but what "positive change" entails is debatable. Should these countries encourage more diversity and immigration? Some would call that positive change, others would not. I think Japanese rule will bring a lot of "positive changes" to the countries I listed earlier.

I don't need to read a blog from some guy to know how the Japanese will react to a 6'3" black guy from Detroit. He doesn't like it there? Go home, dawg.

[Kraco]

That's fine, but the West is in decline, so how much bad influence will it now have on the Japanese?

I very much doubt Japan has entirely avoided that same decline. And using the USA as a baseline for the Western decline also would set too grim a picture.


I don't need to read a blog from some guy to know how the Japanese will react to a 6'3" black guy from Detroit. He doesn't like it there? Go home, dawg.

I understand you might not "need" to read it but why do you keep repeating that last part? If he hadn't liked it, he wouldn't have been there in the first place. And believe me or not but nobody here except yourself considers you the ultimate Japan data and information authority here.

[Animeniax]

I repeat it because people who visit Japan somehow feel the need and right to complain about what they find there, like it's the Japanese' fault that the people and culture didn't meet the visitor's expectations or that the visitor thought this was weird or that was different. Congratulations, you're a foreigner in a foreign country. Things are different. Get over it. You don't like it, get gone.

If you want to read about a foreigner's life in Japan that gives insights and useful comparisons between Japan and the US, visit this blog instead:
http://www.peterpayne.net/
He also sells cool stuff from Japan.

[Kraco]

And what is that claim based on? As far as I know, Japan isn't the cheapest place to buy a trip to, at least not from here. That alone tells anybody going there must be willing to invest a good amount of money and effort. Going to some thirteen-in-a-dozen beach resort would be a lot cheaper, not to mention they wouldn't need to worry nearly as much about "surviving" there because there's only so much you can do between sleeping and drinking at your hotel and walking to the beach.

I don't know that many people who have travelled to Japan but those that I do loved the place. I haven't met anybody who would have first paid a lot to go there and then came back with nothing but complaints.

I think your whole attitude is somehow garbled. You want to preserve your precious ideal Japan that exists nowhere but in your own mind and only for yourself and thus think everybody else somehow misunderstand Japan, or are suspicious of it, or even unfairly hate it or some aspects of it. Do a reality check, man. People always complain about something because most people like to complain and often even like to listen to complaining if they think likewise. It doesn't mean they didn't generally enjoy their stay.

You really should know better because obviously you have been there multiple times.

Besides, I read Gaijinsmash a long time ago, but I didn't get the impression he didn't like Japan. I got the impression he just wanted to amuse the site visitors, thus writing like he did.

[Animeniax]

How much money you spend doesn't equate to how much enjoyment you'll get. People become interested in Japan for superficial reasons, mostly anime, ninjas, cars, and cuteness. Then they travel to Japan and find it's pretty much like any other Asian culture, complete with yellow people who seem cold and unfriendly and don't speak their language. They also get used to English subtitles in their anime, so when they get lost in Japan without any signs in English or anyone who speaks English to help them, they get upset at the people for being so foreign.

Being from Finland, I don't imagine you've met too many people who've been to Japan period. You sound like a friend of mine who quipped that working in Germany would be a blast because neither of us have ever heard anyone say it sucked. And how many people have we ever talked to who has worked in Germany period? Two. Pretty silly reasoning if you ask me.

I know my attitude has developed from experience and research about the subject. I don't know if this is all new to you, but I've been interested in it for a while, since I plan to move to Japan in the future. I've talked to people, read accounts, and experienced firsthand the "Japan Wonderland" mentality and subsequent backlash when they find it's not what they thought. I'll even admit to feeling some of the same feelings the first time I visited. Besides which, it's not just a Japanese thing. Pretty much any westerner who encounters east Asian culture might have a hard time adjusting. Even in the states, taking white friends to an Asian restaurant resulted in a lot of awkwardness. They hate when you slurp noodles.

I skimmed through the archive and saw some interesting titles. I'll probably read through it. My fault for assuming it was another blog about "foreign guy in Japan". Some of what he writes is more "weird Japan".

[Kraco]

Being from Finland, I don't imagine you've met too many people who've been to Japan period. You sound like a friend of mine who quipped that working in Germany would be a blast because neither of us have ever heard anyone say it sucked. And how many people have we ever talked to who has worked in Germany period? Two. Pretty silly reasoning if you ask me.

Really, now? Aren't you falling victim to your own reasoning in that paragraph? You don't know the first thing about Finland, do you? It's true I haven't met that many people who have visited Japan (as opposed to you obviously, though I count it my pleasure since you apparently only meet people who didn't like the country), but I do know more than a few. And that's not even counting my cousin who's married to a genuine Japanese (nor obviously the Japanese people themselves whom I've met; they have "visited" Japan inherently so no use counting them).

I'm not really trying to oppose your views as such but I'm just wondering why you are so damn negative. But then again, maybe it's because I don't know the American mentality that deeply (and I get the impression it's mostly about the Americans visiting Japan you are talking about). Maybe those Americans I've met weren't like the typical American tourists (whatever those might be like).

[Animeniax]

Sure I do. I've heard the song "Finland" by Monty Python and I know about Teemu Selanne and Saku Koivu.

I think you might be right, we're talking about two different types of tourists here. I've talked to a few Australians and they had nothing but good things to say about their experience in Japan. Of course, they were just there to ski. A JET teacher from Australia had no complaints or cute stories like what gaijinsmash guy posts.

The people I'm talking about are the ones who want to assimilate into Japanese society, but meet resistance or challenges in their efforts. If you're just there to visit to enjoy the scenery and food, it will probably be a great trip.

Growing up yellow among the whites and blacks and browns in America gives me some additional insight into how foreigners will view the Japanese when they visit Japan. It's not really negativity, just a little cynicism.

[Kraco]

Oh, well. Now I understand. We were indeed talking about two different things. I have to confess right away I only know a single person who has travelled there in order to try to integrate into the Japanese society. Now, I can see why you wrote like you did if you know some people who tried to do that with halfassed efforts or unrealistic expectations.

[David75]

Summary:
Visiting is different from Integrating.

Animeniax fears people that would want to integrate Japan society when they are not japanese in the first place, doing harm to the idea he has of Japan.

Japanese Culture doesn't seem to be that threatned by tourists: ie people staying a few weeks at most, for visiting and get a feeling of what the country is.

Japanese Culture may be threatned by other things, not many of them explained in this thread yet.

[Animeniax]

Sort of. I am concerned that foreign people will visit Japan on vacation, grow to love it, then decide to move there, bringing possible bad influences with them, and altering the people that they meet, for better or worse. That's the key, it doesn't necessarily have to be a "bad" change. But what's good for some is bad for others.
This doesn't just apply to the Japanese, but all cultures. We just happen to be talking about the Japanese because of their unique circumstances and influence on the rest of the world that somehow makes people want to go there.

[darkshadow]

Care to elaborate, or are content-lacking one-liners all you're good for?

There is nothing to elaborate, I said everything i needed to say about your view of Amsterdam and its locals.

[Animeniax]

There is nothing to elaborate, I said everything i needed to say about your view of Amsterdam and its locals.
It was just my perception of events. Of course you're looking from the other side, so how can you know? Go visit a foreign (non-caucasian) country sometime and see how the locals make you feel. I mentioned not being too happy how the Chinese take over a part of a city and make it their own, so at least I understand where any tension might come from. I'm not condemning the Dutch, just stating how they made me feel with their stares and challenging looks.


Oh, well. Now I understand. We were indeed talking about two different things.I should leave well enough alone, but I have to backtrack a second. It's not just the immigrants/assimilators, sometimes it's the casual visitors too. If you've seen Lost in Translation, you'll see what I mean. Of course, the movie is written/directed by people who have more exposure to the culture than the characters in the movie, who just happen to be there short-term, so its hard to distinguish who exactly is insulting the culture.

[masamuneehs]

in reply to the topic:

Celebrate your culture! (Parades and festivals are big for a reason!)
Remember your history!
Take pride in your nation/ethnicity/religion/thing!

Like Assertn said, trying to protect a culture is sorta like fighting evolution. There's culture that one tries to protect, and then culture of trying to protect culture. It's going to change and assimilate new things into it, create new things. Excrement is inevitable.

I say people should just try to be themselves, whatever comes naturally to them (that isn't bad/freaky for others) and makes them happy. I think people put too much stock in shallow, self important doctrines and big, airy ideas like "culture". You have a nationality. You have a family. You have a voice. You have an existance.

No one has a culture.

[Animeniax]

http://forums.gotwoot.net/gallery/files/1/0/8/7/0/Cultcha.bmp

I think it's easy to dismiss culture if you come from a place that doesn't have its own strong, well-defined culture (America). But culture and its elements of language, traditions, cuisine, family structure, and practices, defines a people and separates them from other peoples. I think it is a necessary division among people, just like different uniforms are necessary to separate 2 sports teams on the field.

[Chiodos]

In Stockholm, when your going to the City, you usually see fuckin' lolitas everywhere, telling people that your a wannabe of some sort behind your back or through the net.

You know what : )?
(read lolita: some kind of similiraties individual dressed as ... "japanese/vizu kei")

I always wanted to try to smash their bodies, pull their legs to the toilet, dip their head in the hole, and flush X random times. After that I sooooo wanna smash a chair, use it's legg and beat the rest of the crap out of the damn lolita. Later I want to take sharp pieces of glass (toiler window glass!) and cut the shit on the individual.

That would make my day <3!

[Animeniax]

Damn Chiodos, I guess their words strike a chord in you. Are they calling it too close for your liking?

You're a thai guy living in Stockholm? Are the lolis Swedish or also foreigners?

[Chiodos]

Usually lolis swedish, or atleast they have stayed for many years. What I've heard, they have some kind of wierd ...cult (lack for better word) that "attacks" those who do not look japanese (read: clothes/hairstyle).

There was this wierd article just recently in the paper that was about japanese influence and all I can tell, it was mostly a wierd full load of crap. Mostly from a non-sided viewpoint (me).

[Animeniax]

Man you're making me confused. Who's Swedish, who's Japanese, and what are you and are you in Sweden?

[Chiodos]

I am in Sweden. I am not fully Swedish but from Thailand. Maybe 100%. Don't really know.
The "lolitas-whatever" people are usually clean Swedish individuals. They may or may not but have a different backround, I don't really know.
I'm just going to say that their all white considering their covering their faces in white make-up. (usually)

[masamuneehs]

how best to protect the "culture" of this thread?

Move it to the Flame Pit?

or would that be some kind of effort to try to protect the "culture" of General Discussion?

[Sapphire]

Seems fine where it is. FP would just turn it into spam. This is actually a discussion somewhat.

[David75]

I'd rather have this thread cleaned a bit from hatred and remarks regarding cleaning, if possible.

[Turkish-S]

Save culture.? culture itself is a living thing. with daily additions and things removed from your so called "culture". nobody can "protect" a culture. trying to protect it will change it.

[rockmanj]

I think I mostly agree with Masa (oh gosh!); insofar as that culture is a large, collective consciousness type of thing that is mostly shared. However, I also think that no one person is the totality of a culture, and they can choose to integrate things from different "cultures" into their personal life without it affecting their inborn values; and that they have a right to do that as an individual, even if others don't agree with it (I in fact, see many things that I don't agree with, but I respect a person's rights to express themself).

That being said, I don't see any of the Confucian cultures being "perveterd" or changing on a huge scale anytime soon. I mean, I can see, and I have heard that some countries are becoming more tolerant of other ways of thinking (which is a good thing, in my opinion), but for the most part, the system is so ingrained in these societies that its a bit ridiculous to think that the whole system is going to collapse in the near future; if anything, it just seems like its subtly evolving, for lack of a better word, into more modern versions of similar ideas.

[Animeniax]

Well here's something to consider concerning the unhealthy rapidity of changes to a culture: the McDonald's Mega Mac (4 patties on a big-mac) sold millions during a recent trial run of the new product in Japan. With its success, it is now a regular menu item. How long before the Japanese are no longer svelte slim people and more like the chunky folks in the US?

[XanBcoo]

Hmm...

Avoiding personal responsibility by throwing blame at the media and large corporations.

That's awfully American of you, Animeniax.

[Animeniax]

They've infected me with their propaganda and Americanness! Dang, they made me do it again with this post! They are a wily foe indeed.

Influences are a funny thing. People are sheep, and while I like to hold people responsibly for their own folly, large corporations that herd sheep with their proverbial sheep dogs, horses, and guns are also to blame.

But my point is not about who is responsible, it's about culture change due to foreign influence. McDonald's is as foreign an influence as you can get, and a great example of a bad influence on east Asian culture.

[Board of Command]

You can only blame the Japanese for that one. Japan, and other Asian countries in general, really relish western stuff. Macdonald's is a huge hit in China. Pizza Hut is being sold for $100 each in China and it's really shitty stuff.

I guess it's part of their culture to enjoy western goods because they're viewed as exotic items. It's what happens in a mono-cultured society.

You can say, "Well the big western corporations can help preserve Japanese culture by not introducing their products over there." However, they're not in the business to be good samaritans. They're in the business to make money. Ironically, the Japanese people are also happy to pay these corporations and eat their horrible food. Everyone's happy the way things are right now.

[XanBcoo]

Macdonald's is a huge hit in China. Pizza Hut is being sold for $100 each in China and it's really shitty stuff.
I took this picture when I went to China in 2006 (http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/6690/picture070ce0.jpg)
And then I took this one the very next day (http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/3208/picture084bc6.jpg)

Only now, 2 years after the trip, have I just noticed that there is also a Starbucks in that first picture. Wow.


Edit to below: Oh also I noticed that every KFC in Sichuan made their Popcorn Chicken extremely spicy. I guess that completely fits the "catering to local tastes" argument to a T.

[Animeniax]

I'm not happy, and that's what matters most (to me). I think the policymakers can be held accountable as well. If they didn't allow a foreign company like McDonald's to enter their marketplace, that would alleviate some of the problem. Even in the states, schools are cracking down on kids' access to colas and unhealthy food. It's all about crowd control.

You're right about how Asian cultures idolize the West and therefore flock to places like McDonald's for their relative exoticness. But you can also see how these places still have to cater to the local culture, offering items you won't find in the US, like side salads instead of fries and things like teriyaki and Ebi Filet-O (shrimp) burgers. I've found most of their sandwiches are smaller portions as well.

[Kraco]

As long as you talk only about protecting Japan from us, and not protecting us from them it's nothing but empty chatter. No (real, excluding hackers and bots) member of this site wants to be protected from many elements of the Japanese culture. So, it's pure hypocrisy to say they should be protected from us. Just like we want their stuff, they want our stuff.

[Animeniax]

Shrug, the title of the thread refers to Japanese culture. Really I want to preserve all cultures that make contributions to human kind (not necessarily influencing other cultures, but development within their own culture) so if someone were to visit that country, they would get a good, well-defined taste of that country's culture. We just happen to be talking about Japanese culture in this thread.

To elaborate on your concern, I think the East has plenty of areas that need improvement, including individual freedom, value of a human life, women's rights, the concept of what is beauty, the concept of what is success, etc., that I do not miss, being from the West myself. The thing is to not wish one was more like the other, but more that they each grow in their own way.

People always want stuff that's not good for them. Doesn't mean they should get it.

[Buffalobiian]

East has plenty of areas that need improvement, including individual freedom.

Shortly after.


People always want stuff that's not good for them. Doesn't mean they should get it.

By not exposing ourselves to other culture, we breed misunderstanding. By exposing ourselves to other cultures, we learn and change our own.

[Board of Command]

Shrug, the title of the thread refers to Japanese culture. Really I want to preserve all cultures that make contributions to human kind (not necessarily influencing other cultures, but development within their own culture) so if someone were to visit that country, they would get a good, well-defined taste of that country's culture. We just happen to be talking about Japanese culture in this thread.

To elaborate on your concern, I think the East has plenty of areas that need improvement, including individual freedom, value of a human life, women's rights, the concept of what is beauty, the concept of what is success, etc., that I do not miss, being from the West myself. The thing is to not wish one was more like the other, but more that they each grow in their own way.

People always want stuff that's not good for them. Doesn't mean they should get it.
Population control would solve all problems in the East. Deportation is one method.

[Animeniax]

Shortly after.What's your point? There is an appropriate level of individual freedom. Currently there is too much in the West and too little in the East. Can't they each tend toward the proper amount without help from the other?


By not exposing ourselves to other culture, we breed misunderstanding. By exposing ourselves to other cultures, we learn and change our own.
I disagree. If each side kept to their own side of the planet or continents, there would be no need for encounters, and thus no need for misunderstandings. It's a little extreme and not exactly what I'm advocating, but reduced exposure to one another accomplishes the same thing. Plus, those looking to mingle will be more accepting of the other side anyway, which will relieve some misunderstanding as well. I believe cultures can change on their own. Plus, I'm not saying there should be zero influence, just control what influence there is. Eg, no more MTV or McDonald's allowed in Japan, but cool stuff is allowed.

[Board of Command]

The growth of cultures has almost always been fueled by promise of wealth. Even if you look back hundreds and thousands of years, the only reason different cultures interacted with each other was for trading purposes and nothing else. It just happened that they often did a bit more than just trade stuff when they're over at someone else's land.

In this sense it's very difficult for a culture can grow and develop all on its own. They can change, but probably for the worse.

[Animeniax]

Yes the trade issue would be tricky to get past if a country closes its doors. I've read that already Japan is having potential issues with trade, with former trading partners looking to countries like Korea and India for products once exclusive from Japan. It also doesn't help that they are proposing a law that business men dealing with Japanese (not sure if it was government or private companies too) would be required to be proficient in the Japanese language.

But I think they'd be ok if they were just more discerning of who they traded with, and to what extent. The Asian (yellow) countries could trade amongst themselves, and raise tariffs on Western goods.

Looking at the other side, would US automakers be in bankruptcy if Japanese and European cars weren't readily available in the US? Would the US textiles industry be in the sad shape it is in if not for cheap Chinese and Central American made products? There is a lot to be gained by being self-reliant on your own country's products and manufacturing power.

[David75]

Yes the trade issue would be tricky to get past if a country closes its doors. I've read that already Japan is having potential issues with trade, with former trading partners looking to countries like Korea and India for products once exclusive from Japan. It also doesn't help that they are proposing a law that business men dealing with Japanese (not sure if it was government or private companies too) would be required to be proficient in the Japanese language.

But I think they'd be ok if they were just more discerning of who they traded with, and to what extent. The Asian (yellow) countries could trade amongst themselves, and raise tariffs on Western goods.

Looking at the other side, would US automakers be in bankruptcy if Japanese and European cars weren't readily available in the US? Would the US textiles industry be in the sad shape it is in if not for cheap Chinese and Central American made products? There is a lot to be gained by being self-reliant on your own country's products and manufacturing power.

Regarding the Car industry in the USA, the main problem of US car makers is that they missed lots of customers by not giving them cars to the level of their needs and/or dreams. Some European and Asian cars were readily available for those purposes, hence the USA car makers lost sales.
On the other hand, the Corvette C6 Z06 and Viper for high end cars and the Chrysler 300C for a larger market did really impress in Europe and they sell well for US cars.

You can't blame people for buying better products outside... Plus in the end local cars may become better.
We had this in France 30 years ago, car makers were producing sh*t.
Then arrived japanese. Then french car makers then produced more beautiful (still somewhat sh*t) cars over the years.

In the end, it's possible that a loss today, becomes an improvement in 10 or 20 years from now.
Close doors, and you'll have what Romania was before Ceausescu was "fired". A country clearly far behind every other, with totaly rusted industry and so on..

[Buffalobiian]

There is a lot to be gained by being self-reliant on your own country's products and manufacturing power.

There is also a lot to be lost. Each country is unique. Their level of technology, population size, land mass, natural resources all factor in as to what they do best. It is probably possible that every country could develop in such a way that they can support their own without trading, but that would mean producing some products in inefficient ways.

Sealed exonomies like that defy the basic axiom of economics: to best satisfy our infinite wants with finite resources.

As such, the idea of wanting to be self sufficient is not enough to compensate for the lost resources in achieving that. Hence the globalisation trend.

[Animeniax]

True, but one solution to the issue of finite resources is to use imperialism to get what you need to be self-sufficient.

[Dark Dragon]

True, but one solution to the issue of finite resources is to use imperialism to get what you need to be self-sufficient.

The Europeans tried that by taking over other countries and turning them in colonies. The end result was various wars fought by different imperialist country over territories which ended up weakening these countries and eventually led to rebellions by the colonies over time.

If Japan choose to become an Imperialist again, it would have to deal with other major power in the area (China, Korea and Russia) because it would be naive to think that those countries will just stand by and let Japan slowly accumulate territories and grow stronger. This will lead to rising tension between those countries as they fight over territories and of course wars will be the end result under those situation (see WWI).

A good fictional example is the Empire of Britania from Code Geass. In that case, Japan was taken over and turned into a colony so the Empire could have access to the resource that was available (Sakuradite) and the Japanese became 2nd class citizen within their own homeland. It is easy to suggest Imperialism or from my interpretation "Lets take whatever we want through the use of force" without considering the consequences and negative effect it will have on everyone including the Imperialist.

This thread was made for the purpose of discussing the protection of a cultural identity from foreign influences that could potentially erase everything that was there originally with Japan being the example(at least that was the impression i got). Somehow this got turn into a "Japan can preserve its own culture by stomping all of the weaker countries in the face" and who would have the right to decide which country gets to keep its culture while another country cannot because it is "useless".

A culture grow and evolve through interaction with other cultures because that is a natural process. It's very easy to blame Mcdonald or whatever for social problems such as obesity but that is a matter of personal choice and the high Obesity rate in America is the result of many different factors. Government officials will rarely ban companies from going into their country because they bring in revenue which will benefit everyone as a whole.

Every culture has its positive, negative and those within the society that do not agree with the majority. It is possible to kick those peoples out for not agreeing with the majority with the "If you don't like it here, leave" mentality but that would be running away from the problem rather than confronting and solving it. The idea of preserving a culture the way it is without any significant changes by isolating yourself from everyone and becoming self sufficient through conquest of other countries is contradictory.

[Animeniax]

Yesterday I further did my part to protect and preserve the culture of Japan. I was talking to this white guy who likes anime and he said he wanted to visit Japan and hook up with one of my yellow sisters (my words not his). Evidently he thinks Japan is like Thailand where you can wave a 5 dollar bill around and get all kinds of skanks' attention. He's also a big fan of Naruto and other anime, and thinks the Japanese are all cute and cuddly like the characters in anime.

So in the guise of giving him some travel tips to the promised land, I pretty much rained on his parade, telling him all the bad stuff he'd experience if he went there and what a terrible time he would probably have, him being a loud-mouth westerner and all.

[Sapphire]

You must be proud of yourself.

[Animeniax]

I wouldn't have posted the above otherwise. I think in a way I helped him as much as I helped the Japanese. If he goes over thinking Japan is a certain way, when he inevitably finds out what it's really like, he'll be upset, and take it out on the Japanese. I've seen it happen. It happened to me, in a manner. This way, I spare both him and the Japanese from this guy's own stupidity. It's win win baby.

[Kraco]

Without knowing your exact words it's impossible to say for sure, but likely you did him a favour if he indeed was so delusional. I haven't visited Japan but I doubt one should treat it any differently as a tourist than any other country. However, if he changes his own attitude, he would probably have good time there. I hope you didn't damage his image so much that he doesn't realise that. I'm sure the Japanese enjoy money spent by the tourists just as much as any other nation.

[rockmanj]

Well, actually, I do kind of agree with that; you shouldn't be going anywhere with incorrect preconceived notions about any place. That guy should have done some research at least. I don't know, but yea, that guy sounded like an idiot (sadly, not all that uncommon).

[Animeniax]

Not to generalize, but this guy isn't your usual anime-loving fanboy nerd type. He's a thick-neck, country-boy, truck driver type (his actual profession btw), the kind of guy who typically goes to Thailand to find a wife (no offense to anyone from Thailand, but the prostitution is getting out of hand there). Since I have no affection for the Thais, he can feel free to continue going there, and leave Japan and the other peoples of southeast Asia alone.

I didn't say anything untrue, and I hardly exaggerated, but I pointed out how few English speakers there are, how crummy the taxis are, how expensive stuff is, with the weakness of the dollar and stuff normally being more expensive in Japan, and how it's completely not like in anime. He seemed a little upset, but also determined to "get some Japanese p*ssy" as he so eloquently said. Makes it so much easier to defend what I did.

[Buffalobiian]

Haha, I was wondering if you were over reacting when you discouraged him, but if he said that, he really does need to be set straight before he goes. They things he says makes me lol though.

[Buffalobiian]

Apparently Ani has some like-minded folks in Japan who feel the same way.

In the Eroge industry anyway. (safe to click)

http://www.dannychoo.com/post/en/20683/Eroge+Websites+Blocked.html

The issue hasn't been in the news much lately, but if things like Shana and other such "lolli" material also get bombarded, we will only be able to obtain these in Japan, remembering that news about the unlawful acts of not owning, but importing/transporting "obscene" material across borders.

At least this site thing has a proxy work-around.

[David75]

The guys at minori are totally dumb, they are not preventing foreigners to access their website, they are preventing machines connecting from outside Japan to access their website.

The difference is huge, because even Japanese can't access this website from abroad.