Naruto Chapter 385

[Sidnne]

Geez, Narutofan has is before Gotwoot... We're slacking.

RAW (http://www.sendspace.com/file/zl3v6f)

EDIT: Translation from Mangahelpers (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24493)

Scanlation (http://www.sendspace.com/file/eb32xn)

[RyougaZell]

Found in leafninja forums...



Sasuke's recollection

Itachi (younger days): Inside the Nanga Temple's hall... underneath the seventh tatami mat from the right rear, you can find the secret hiding place of the clan. In this place, you can find the answer to the reason behind the existence of the clan's doujutsu....the true secret is recorded within. Once you have awaken your eyes, including myself, there will be three users of the Mangekyou Sharingan. For that to happen...kuku, it is a worthwhile reason to let you live.
Returning to present
Sasuke: Answer my question! Until you do so, the pain on your chest shall continue...
Itachi: ...did you miss my vital points on purpose...
Sasuke: Three persons...the other Sharingan user is...which person from the Uchiha clan?
Itachi: ...Why...are you concerned with such a matter?
Sasuke: After you, he's the next person I will kill...that's all.
Itachi: kill?
Sasuke: You spoke of the existence of another person during the massacre of the clan....The Uchiha which you did not kill...that person is therefore the person assisting you. No matter how good you are, it is not possible for you to finish off the police squad by yourself.
Itachi: ...so you've noticed.
Sasuke: Who's that person?
Itachi: Uchiha Madara

Orochimaru's snake: The doujutsu power has a more sinister chakra than mine...same as Uchiha Madara of the past...
Returning to present
Itachi: One of the founders of Konohagakure...the first man who had awaken the Mangekyou Sharingan.
Sasuke: Founder? If it's that Madara you're referring to, he's supposed to be dead. Are you making fun of me?!
Itachi: ...Madara is still alive. To believe it or not, it's up to you.
Sasuke: Stop the bullshit!
Itachi: ...every human being relies on and is bounded by his knowledge and experience to live. This is what we call "reality". However, knowledge and experience are ambiguous, thus reality can become illusion. Is it not possible to think that, all human beings are living in their assumptions?
Sasuke: What are you trying to say exactly?
Itachi: Hmph... That "Madara is dead" is what you choose to assume. Just like how you chose to assume that I am a nice big brother to you in the past.
Sasuke reflects on the past when he played with Itachi.
Picture of the younger Itachi.
Itachi: The reason why I acted as the ideal brother to you... is to measure your "capacity"...
Returning to present
Sasuke: What happened that night... I could only think of it as an illusion when I was younger. That I was inside a terrible genjutsu... that's what I thought. But what was that?! It was clearly the reality!!
Following that, he Chidori from the back!
The face of the real (?) Itachi sitting at the back hit the side wall.
Sasuke: My eyes now are different from the past! I can see through genjutsu with my Sharingan!
Itachi: Hmph... you always use strong words, as usual. I take your words for it this time
The Itachi that was stabbed by Sasuke's katana disappeared.
Sasuke drew back the Chidori facing Itachi.
Itachi: ...however...Sasuke...you still do not possess the same eyes as me it seems

Recollections
(Young) Itachi: And then you come forth to me bearing the same "eyes"
Sasuke: Hmph...then, you should use Mangekyou Sharingan and try to kill me! Or am I too much for you to measure your "capacity" now?
Itachi: Such great confidence...

Zetsu watches without letting slip of his presence.
Happy Zetsu: Both of them haven't been moving since the beginning.
Creepy Zetsu: That's because they are exchanging with genjutsu
Itachi: Mangekyou Sharingan...this eye is special...
Sasuke: ...?
Itachi: From the moment the eyes are awaken, it moves towards the darkness. The more you use it, it gets sealed

Sasuke: What do you mean?
Itachi: Mangekyou will lose the light eventually
Sasuke: Going blind...that is the price to pay for the power to control the Kyuubi right?
Itachi: Hmph...seems like you have listened to my words and went to read the stone board at the gathering place
Sasuke: Madara... what in the world is he?
Itachi: He was the first man to clutch the Kyuubi in his arms, my accomplice, my mentor and the indestructible man. And the only man to have exposed one more secret to the Mangekyou Sharingan. This person is Uchiha Madara.


Source: http://s4.invisionfree.com/LeafNinjaForums/index.php?showtopic=9921


Thoughts:
So the Mangekyou DOES make you blind...

[iMUSTbeTHEdevil]

I like how they explained it as "lose the light" Makes it seem better. Might actually explain the black fire from Itachi's MS too!

[Idealistic]

Gah.... So after all this time we finally hear of this "other person" during the massacre of the Uchiha clan.

Still, we haven't found out why they had to massacre the clan.

[iMUSTbeTHEdevil]

Gah.... So after all this time we finally hear of this "other person" during the massacre of the Uchiha clan.

Still, we haven't found out why they had to massacre the clan.

I still think that Itachi was trying to test his powers to see if he could conceivably take on Madara.

[Sidnne]

Not much of a surprise here. Basically, we had two theories confirmed: Madara was responsible for the death of the Uchiha clan, and the Mangekyou Sharingan does cause the user to go blind.

The part I liked best about this chapter was when Zetsu was watching them and the entire fight was genjutsu.

[joker-kun]

For anyone wondering the scanlated release is out.

Nice chapter. I want to know what the final secret is. I am wondering if it's immortality? That would further add to why Oro wanted Sasuke's body, and explain why Madara is still alive, or it could be something as simple (and already stated) as you can control the nine-tails (and whatever other bijjuu or whatever they're called). That could also explain how he caught that one water one (was it the four tails? I cannot remember) when it looked like he was loosing. He could had just started controlling it.


I guess this also means; if Madara controlled the nine-tails "like a pet" he was the one who let it loose on the village when the fourth sealed it.

[DDBen]

Wow this chapter was quite pointless it contained absolutely nothing we didn't already know at this point or at the very least things that were heavily hinted at.

First I wouldn't say its been confirmed that the Mangekyou makes you go blind. It simply corrupts you making you fall further into darkness. That could have several meanings and while blindness is one that could possibly be true I really doubt Mandara is blind or unable to use the Mangekyou and considering how long he has been using it the concept of it simply making you go blind just seems wrong.

Mandara sending the 9 tails against the leaf as well as killing the Uchiha clan with Itachi was also stuff that we should have known by now its been hinted at over and over. Also same goes for Mangekyou being able to control the 9-tails to some extent there is no other reason for him to have known Mandara by name and to have commented on Sasuke's eye's before like he did.

I'm looking forward to next weeks but expecially after such a long wait I was expecting a bit more from this weeks chapter then we seemed to get. That though is likely my fault.

[Foomanchew24]

http://www.mangashare.com/releases/Naruto_385v2[Binktopia].zip

[rockmanj]

I do think he meant blindness when he said "the kaleidoscope loses its light" ...didn't Kakashi allude to that before?

[kAi]

Yeah, Kakashi did say something like that before.

Although, this arises new questions as Jokerness and DDBen mentioned.

[HachimonTonkou]

this kind of leads to more questions about the main purpose of akatsuke. I wonder if madara is controlling the whole operation, and itachi is somehow his student, then what exactly are they really trying to accomplish? Pein seems to have his own agenda, and itachi sounds like madara is trying to resurrect himself. I was kind of lost on this chapter. Hopefully next week there will more action, or at least more answers.

[Psyke]

Awesome chapter. I've always been wondering what exactly Itachi wanted Sasuke to find, and this chapter provides the answer and also some proof to the whole blindness thing.

[GurrenLagann]

It also puts to rest the fact that Uchiha Madara was tobi. >:O Now we know Obito=Tobi!

[DB_Hunter]

Err... how? We just got told that Madara is still alive and you think the only explaination for a mysterious Sharingan user is not infact Madara, who is alive, but a long dead Uchiha of whom we have no reason to belive is alive?

[toonice714]

Wow i bet everybody who ever got flamed for saying MS causes blindness is jumping up and down for this chapter. I guess you dont have to "read between the lines" on kishi's work its pretty straight forward. Well moving on i guess tobi + itachi>da police.

[Assertn]

Yeah....kind of shocking....
I guess that means Kakashi will be going blind as well.

Itachi reiterating that Sasuke can't fight him until he has MS pretty much suggests this fight will be over in the next chapter, and Itachi won't die just yet.

[Darky]

Though Kakakashi still has one normal eye. So he might go blind with his sharingan but that really wouldn't affect him that much in normal life. This means Madara should be long blind now though. Maybe that's why Sasuke is being measured actually, to take his eyes when he's ready :p

So is the final secret about the mangekyou that you can control kyuubi with it or is there yet another thing the sharingan can do and we'll have to wait about for ages?

[Assertn]

Though Kakakashi still has one normal eye. So he might go blind with his sharingan but that really wouldn't affect him that much in normal life. This means Madara should be long blind now though. Maybe that's why Sasuke is being measured actually, to take his eyes when he's ready :p
Perhaps, but in that case any of them could replace their worn-out sharingans with regular eyes, since transplants appear to be relatively simple in the ninja world.

[Sidnne]

Though Kakakashi still has one normal eye. So he might go blind with his sharingan but that really wouldn't affect him that much in normal life. This means Madara should be long blind now though. Maybe that's why Sasuke is being measured actually, to take his eyes when he's ready :p

But if that were the case, then why wipe out the entire Uchiha clan except for Sasuke? If their intentions were to take Sasuke's sharingan, then they will be out of sharingan eyes after that. They have eliminated their source of "organ donors".

I don't believe the Uchiha's were wiped-out to test any "capacity", not if Madara and Itachi were working together. It's more likely they fear the Uchiha's and wiping them out was to preemptively eliminate any future threat to their true plans.

They must have some sinister plot in store for Sasuke, hopefully we'll find out what it is soon.

[Uberbaka]

Well, If killing your best friend gives you mangekyu, maybe killing your (almost) entire clan gives you the power that Madara has.

Still no idea what Itachis plan/role in this is...

[KCMmmmm]

Well, If killing your best friend gives you mangekyu, maybe killing your (almost) entire clan gives you the power that Madara has.

That would make sense....except that Madara would have to have been at least 200 years old at the time that he obtained immortality. So....it's unlikely.

Even if Itachi wiped out the entire clan just to test Sasuke's "container," why should Madara have gone along with it? He must have some personal reason for destroying the clan that he originally founded.

And....MS causes blindness. Is it time to bring back the "MS: Multiple Sclerosis vs Mangekyou Sharingan?" debate from a few months ago?

[Mkadoza]

I noticed something. If Sasuke knew that the sharingan's "true purpose" is to control the kyuubi, could that be the reason he was able to supress the kyuubi's chakra in Naruto when they meet at Orochimaru's lair.

Like Jiraiya said, someone must have summoned the kyuubi when it appeared at the village, and we can safely assume that that was Madara. My other thought is how vital was the kyuubi to the formation of the village, considering that both of the founders had some level of control over the kyuubi (like Naruto and Sasuke o_O).

[chet_chetty]

The Uchiha clan's existence is the most pressing conflict to Madara's goal; which, apparently, is to make Konoha crumble.

With the Uchiha clan serving as Konoha's police squad, their inherit goal to protect Konoha conflicts with Madara's goal to see Konoha fall. The fact that they are Uchiha makes the issue personal and adds fuel to their fire to make sure Madara would not succeed. Also, it appears the biggest anti-Sharingan is another Sharingan so killing off the clan takes care of Madara's biggest threat.

The fact that the secrets of the Uchiha clan, namely the extent of the Sharingan's powers, were hidden goes to show that those Uchiha in the know did not want Mangekyou Sharingan to be attained by any more Uchiha; while of course Madara wants to exploit MS to its fullest. It's suggested that he pointed Itachi in the direction to attaining MS and he, even moreso, would like Sasuke to attain it as well. Madara probably would not have been able to do this if the Uchiha clan stayed in existence.

I personally believe that Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu is the max potential Itachi can tap out of MS. The nine-tails telling Sasuke that his chakra is more sinister than his own and that it reminds the nine-tails of Madara leads me to believe that only Sasuke (between him and Itachi) has the potential to use MS to control the nine-tails (as Madara did).

[joker-kun]

I noticed something. If Sasuke knew that the sharingan's "true purpose" is to control the kyuubi, could that be the reason he was able to supress the kyuubi's chakra in Naruto when they meet at Orochimaru's lair.

Like Jiraiya said, someone must have summoned the kyuubi when it appeared at the village, and we can safely assume that that was Madara. My other thought is how vital was the kyuubi to the formation of the village, considering that both of the founders had some level of control over the kyuubi (like Naruto and Sasuke o_O).

The whole history repeating itself is starting to get old...

[Darky]

Madara is just jealous he wasn't made Hokage thus resulting in him wanting to destroy Konoha.

[conquistaDan]

I think that theory actually pans out well. I agree. Although I also think that the Uchiha's have also had an ulterior motive. Madara especially has something else going on which Kishi should let us know soon here.


What I want to know is, when and why the fight between the fist and the Madara happened. And why was it worth erecting giant statues on the outskirts of the village for?


side note:am I the only one who finds it odd and pathetic that Madara was defeated by the first. I mean he knew how to use his MS in ways no other Uchiha did. And the first only knew wood jutsus. I find it very very hard to believe that any could beat Madara let alone the first.

[rockmanj]

I seriously doubt the 1st only knew wood justus...they claim that he was the "one to bring calm to the ninja world", and wood jutsu is pretty powerful, and maybe you forget, but he can also somehow control Jinchuuriki (like Yamato). I'm not sure if he can also control the Bijuu, but it appears that way. More mystery abounds!

[Darky]

What I want to know is, when and why the fight between the fist and the Madara happened. And why was it worth erecting giant statues on the outskirts of the village for?


side note:am I the only one who finds it odd and pathetic that Madara was defeated by the first. I mean he knew how to use his MS in ways no other Uchiha did. And the first only knew wood jutsus. I find it very very hard to believe that any could beat Madara let alone the first.

I'm really hoping Kishi will have Madara reflect back on his battle with the first. And it would be nice to know when the battle happened, like just after founding the village or years later.

About finding it odd and pathetic that Madara was defeated, we just don't know enough about the first really. The first obviously must have had something going for him. But if you do put a few things about the 2 together Madara does come out better so far. The first had a bit of control over the tailed beasts, Madara however made the Kyuubi into his pet (though Madara could have found that out later). Madara should know more jutsu's if he's put his sharingan to good use, though you still have to use them at the right time. Genjutsu should also be on Madara's side (sharingan again). That leaves taijutsu open atm, and then there's strategy still. There's still his mangekyou though, yet on this we don't know when he managed to achieve it.

I really can't remember where it was said that the first won, but here's my theory a bit more worked out. Maybe Madara considered the first to be his best friend but was broken when he wasn't made Hokage. Fight breaks loose years later over some trivial thing, Madara kills the first (gains Mangekyou) and makes it look like he was killed as well. Seeing this the village declared the first to have won. Still need to fit in the scroll about acheiving the mangekyou in somehow. Though he could have added that later in secret and Itachi somehow found it.

I know it's full of holes but to me it has a nice touch

[Abdula]

Okay nice theory I doubt Madara would care about something like being hokage though his goals and motivations are much deeper than something like that.

Anyway nice chapter alot is explained here and this is exactly how I expected a battle between two Uchiha's to go, a pure mental battle using genjutsu. So Madaara was Itachi's mentor, teacher and accomplice that explains why and how Itachi killed the clan and why he was so strong and knew so much about the Uchiha. I really didn't think Itachi was strong enough to kill the entire clan by himself and Madara would explain why he was able to do it and how he knew how to attain MS.

I think more than likely Madara killed the first Hokage, what the villages know or believe and what was said before doesn't really matter, the higher ups are usually the only ones who really know anything anyway. Jiraiya hinted that he believed something like that had happened and Madara having MS suggests that he infact killed the first. Fact is he has MS which as far as we know is obtained by killing your best friend. Secondly he was Itachi's mentor and instructed him to kill his best friend so that he could gain MS and Itachi then told the same thing to Sasuke.

I really think Madara killed the First in that battle everything seems to suggests that, he does not only appear to be flat out stronger but he is supposedly indestructible and it was stated that the second became hokage after the first was killed so. That explains why Itachi suddenly changed after he joined the anbu, he must have encountered Madara sometime during that point. So Madara was still active in the village then in some capacity even if it was just watching.

So really a very nice chapter and although atleast one person felt underwhelmed I wasn't it was and still is a great fight and as I said its exactly how I thought a battle with two Sharingan users would be. In any case the plot thickens.

One thing that came to my mind while reading this that no one has mentioned is Kakashi. Not only does this make exactly how Kakashi acquired MS more interesting but the thing that everyone has missed here is that this could suggest that using MS Kakashi could control the Kyuubi.

Anyway awesome chapter and we apparently have yet another immortal on our hands.

[SilentSnake]

Madara was the first sharingan user, right?

so : where did Uchiha clan came from?

Madara's offspring = women

women = trouble

trouble = Naruto's storyline

conclusion = Madara's dick was cut off by one of Konoha's chicks that was jealous about the other Madara lovers, that's why he wanted to take revenge on Konoha (Kyuubi) and became an easygoing Tobi after that = mental disorders caused by trauma.

so predictable...

[DB_Hunter]

Doesn't anybody think it is strange that whilst Madara, founder of the Uchiha clan and a founder of Konoha, is killed by the First yet the Uchiha clan still survives?

I think there is something like the Hyuuga clan family system running in the Uchiha also, except that with the Uchiha the difference between the two branches is political rather than a master to slave realtionship that exists in the Hyuuga. I think that when the First defeated Madara, one family of the Uchiha clan didn't support Madara and stood by as he was defeated. Either that, or the entire Uchiha family just stood by and watched him lose. I think that is probably what drove him to wipe out his entire clan, whilst keeping the best sons in the form of Itachi and Sasuke for himself.

I think it is pretty clear that it was Madara who summoned Kyuubi to attack Konoha as well. What is interesting though is that if this is the case, both Kyuubi and Madara were unable to defeat Yondaime. What I want to know is though what has Madara been doing all this time? Has he been regenerating? Is that why he wears a mask, because has not fully regenerated yet? Also, is the final secret of the Sharingan something that surpasses the Rinengan that Jiraiya didn't know about? Does Itachi know Madara = Tobi?

[poopdeville]

Doesn't anybody think it is strange that whilst Madara, founder of the Uchiha clan and a founder of Konoha, is killed by the First yet the Uchiha clan still survives?

I think there is something like the Hyuuga clan family system running in the Uchiha also, except that with the Uchiha the difference between the two branches is political rather than a master to slave realtionship that exists in the Hyuuga.

Yes, but you're thinking about it too much. The Uchiha clan descended from the Hyuuga clan. The Sharingan is a (stronger) variant of the Byakugan, as explained before the time jump. Indeed, this means that Madara was a Hyuuga before founding the Uchiha clan. Was he a Head family member or a Branch family member? If he was a head family member, we can assume that he continued the tradition, and that the survivors/slaves suppressed it after his death. If he was a Branch family member, things become unclear and possibly very exciting.


... Does Itachi know Madara = Tobi?

Probably. Itachi is his accomplice and student.

[Abdula]

I think its pretty safe to say that Itachi knows Tobi = Madara. He hinted that he knew this back when Akatsuki was first told that Sasuke was killed by Deidara and long before then when he killed the clan he told Sasuke a third member exists. So Madara being in involved with Pein who is the leader of Akatsuki and Tobi and Itachi both being in Akatsuki and Itachi referring to Madara as his mentor is no coincidence.

So I would say that they are well aware of each other. In fact they may all have planned this out together Pein, Konan, Zetsu, Itachi and Madara. Maybe Kakuzu as well since he was one of the original members who was very old and he did also claim that he had previously fought with the first hokage. See the connection there another old guy from the time of the founding of konoha who has some form of immortality who also fought the first. That just can't be coincidence.

They really are the brains of Akatsuki because if you think about it, Deidara and Hidan were new members and Oro, Kisame and Sasori were more or less dumb muscle because they really weren't involved in Akatsuki for any apparent reason other than for their own individual benefits. I mean excluding Oro, who joined only to get close to Itachi the other two were just dumb muscle really and are in Akatsuki simply because they are strong.

Taking the possible connection between Madara and Kakuzu and what the two posts above me said I won't be surprised if at the time at the battle at the valley of end it was and all out war between Madara and his followers and The First and his followers for control of the Kyuubi and the fate of the leaf village. It makes alot of sense and if the first was killed defending the village but his side eventually won it would explain not only why they erected the statues but why Madara would want to destroy the leaf village.

Plus I don't see a hokage becoming involved in any battle unless the outcome would directly affect the fate of the village and where the battle took place was very far away from the village itself which would make sense if they were indeed having a battle for the village. The hokage won't be all the way out there for any other reason but besides that Madara leading a rebel faction in a battle against the leaf makes sense and since he was one of the three founders of the village he would have a substantial following.

[Sidnne]

Madara is just jealous he wasn't made Hokage thus resulting in him wanting to destroy Konoha.

Wasn't that Orochimaru's motivation? It would be pretty lame if all of the villains in Naruto were just disgruntled middle-management angry over not getting that big promotion.



Madara was the first sharingan user, right?

No. He was the first Mangekyou Sharingan user.



Doesn't anybody think it is strange that whilst Madara, founder of the Uchiha clan and a founder of Konoha, is killed by the First yet the Uchiha clan still survives?

I don't recall it ever saying he founded the Uchiha clan, not in this chapter at least, he was just a founding father of Konoha.

[Abdula]

Just to clear it up it was stated that Madara, The First and The second founded the village, though the First gets most of the credit and it was stated that Madara founded clan.

[Sidnne]

Do you remember which chapter it was stated in?

[Abdula]

Chapter 370 pg 16

[poopdeville]

They really are the brains of Akatsuki because if you think about it, Deidara and Hidan were new members and Oro, Kisame and Sasori were more or less dumb muscle because they really weren't involved in Akatsuki for any apparent reason other than for their own individual benefits. I mean excluding Oro, who joined only to get close to Itachi the other two were just dumb muscle really and are in Akatsuki simply because they are strong.

Taking the possible connection between Madara and Kakuzu and what the two posts above me said I won't be surprised if at the time at the battle at the valley of end it was and all out war between Madara and his followers and The First and his followers for control of the Kyuubi and the fate of the leaf village. It makes alot of sense and if the first was killed defending the village but his side eventually won it would explain not only why they erected the statues but why Madara would want to destroy the leaf village.

Wow dumb.

Wow useless.
-Assassin

Edit: Sorry, it just doesn't deserve more than that. There's something wrong in just about every sentence.

[Sidnne]

Chapter 370 pg 16

Thanks.

I noticed something else while looking at that. In that chapter and this current one, both pictures of Madara have that dual sharingan thing behind him. Its difficult to tell if its in the background or perhaps strapped to his back.

I wonder if that has any significance to anything.

[iMUSTbeTHEdevil]

Sasuke is going to help Naruto control the Kyuubi!! And then they will fight side by side again!

[Assassin]

Heres how i see it. The first and Madara had differing opinions and fought for whatever reason. Everyone seems to assume that Madara shoud've won since he has the MS, but we dont know anything about the batte, other then the location and the people involved.

Its far more likely that at the time Madara was a regular sharingan user, lost to the first, became a rogue and left the village, discovered the secrets of the sharingan/immortality, and set the kyuubi on konoha as revenge years later.

[Abdula]

But that would have been over a hundred years later and that is a rather long time for someone to wait to get revenge and if he was a regular sharingan user and he lost to the first that doesn't explain how he got MS. Plus it was apparently well known by the higher ups that he had MS.

Maybe he pulled a Kakashi. Most people believe that the first defeated Madara in that battle and although the Uchiha seem invincible its more likely that that is what happened. A strong enough ninja who knows the Uchihas well enough should have been able to deal with them and even if Madara was stronger I suppose there were extenuating circumstances as there always are in Naruto.

My biggest qualm with The first defeating Madara is that as Itachi said he appears to be invincible but we have no idea when he acquired that ability. Anyway I guess we should get to see what happened in that battle soon and find out what the other secret of the Sharingan is.

[chet_chetty]

I think it'd be best to get an as accurate as possible timeline of the history of Konoha since it's founding. I'm having a hard time believing Konoha is anything older than 100 years old. Not in the in 150 yr range and certainly not in the 200 yr range.

[Abdula]

Why not a hundred years really isn't that long a time, my grandfather will be a hundred in only two years. If you think about it Tsunade's grandfather was the first hokage and she is already in her mid 50's so the village could easily be over a hundred years old.

I would consider a generation to be about 25-50 years and if the first and the second were from the same generation then there is still the third's, the sannin's, the fourth's, the ninja's kakashi's age and up and finally Naruto's generation. At a minimum that is atleast 150 years.

[Darky]

Yeah but i don't know many people who're about 20 and have grandparents even close to being 100 years old. The way I see it, Tsunade is in her fifties, so adding 35 years for a generation that's 85 years. The first probably didn't found the village before he was 20 so 35-20 is an extra 15 years which would make it 100 years old. So i'd say it's closer to being 100 then 150 years old.

[Abdula]

Actually the first was Tsunade's grandfather so you would have to add 35 twice for two generations if that was your logic. Secondly you're assuming that the first founded the village when he was young which may or may not be true also you're assuming that Tsunade's parents had her when they were young which also may or may not be true.

Also I believe the first lived and was hokage for quite sometime before he died and the second took over, I remember seeing that in the databook I think but I can't remember exactly. Anyway after that there is still the third and the fourth and Kakashi and Naruto's generation so there is more than enough time.

So if you take 35yrs for a generation then 5 generations is 175 years so there is definitely more than enough time there. It was implied that Konoha is that old so I would just take it at face value because time is really something you can't calculate in Naruto and if you do you often find major inconsistencies.

Look at Oro and Itachi for example, they were supposed to have been in Akatsuki at the same time but Oro supposedly left the organization more than 10 years ago. Itachi is only supposed to be about 21 or 22 now and he killed the clan and left the village only a few years ago so time wise they couldn't have possibly been in Akatsuki at the same time but as we've seen it did happen.

So when it comes to time you should just take it at face value.

[Konohamaru]

I reckon if the "kill your friend" thing is true to get mangekyou, perhaps the first and Madara were best of friends. Just a thought. Still doesn't explain the relationship between Tobi and Madara looking the same. The only thing I can think of is that Tobi must be a fan boy of Madara and imitated him.

[Abdula]

Um, Tobi is Madara. What are you talking about?

[Darky]

Abdula i'm sure we can both agree Tsunade is still alive, so it really doesn't matter who's born after her but before her. And i did count 2 extra generations, 1 was her father obviously, making it 85 total then as i said, the first was atleast in his 20's when he founded the village, so instead of that making the village older, it makes it younger. So instead of adding another 35, 15 should be enough.

And another way of getting the rough age:
Appearantly the 3rd was 69 when he died, and when we see a young sarutobi standing with the 1st and 2nd those 2 don't look insanely old. Even if you say the 1st is 56 that makes a total time of 125 years, and that was when the first was born, not when the village was founded. That not even being close to your 175, i can imagine a lil bit of difference but 50 years + founding age is not a lil gap.

[Abdula]

As I said before even if you know their ages there is no assurance that merely adding them up or performing some rough calculations would be correct. With the example of Itachi and Oro its rather obvious that the ages were an after thought and it really isn't that important to the story so it doesn't matter.

[darkshadow]

Itachi became a chuunin at a very young age, who says madara hasn't been controlling/put him in akatsuki since then?

[Abdula]

Even if he was apart of Akatsuki since then he would have been ten and that would have been about eleven years ago. While that is a possibility I highly doubt he was in Akatsuki since then but even if he was that would mean that he defeated Oro when he was that young. Not only that but during the flashback Itachi appeared as he is now he didn't seem to be much younger, he most certainly wasn't ten.

I believe he knew or found out about Akatsuki after he joined the anbu and then following Madara's instructions, they killed the clan and he joined Akatsuki soon after. I have no idea how long Akatsuki has been around though but it would appear that they have existed for quite some time especially if Madara is the one behind them.

[Assertn]

It is interesting how Madara could control Kyubi, and the 1st could tame Kyubi. I wonder if that played a role in the battle between the two.

[iMUSTbeTHEdevil]

It is interesting how Madara could control Kyubi, and the 1st could tame Kyubi. I wonder if that played a role in the battle between the two.


I can see it now, Madara calls on the Kyuubi and is all..."What now bitch?" And the first is all..."Oh no you didnt!?!' and then takes control of the kyuubi with his powers!

[Sidnne]

We can put all of the rough estimations for the age of Konoha aside. You can do all the math you want, and it might not ever add up.

What we do know is that everyone says there's no way for Madara to still be alive, that he would be long dead, since he lived at the founding of Konoha. If Konoha were only about 100 years old or less, then it would be possible for Madara to still be alive. Konoha would have to be more around 150-200 years for people to react with such surprise to hear his name.

Plus, if you put it in terms of generations, you get the following:

First/Second/Madara
Third
Tsunade/Jiraiyaa/Orochimaru
Fourth
Kakashi/Obito/Whats her name
Naruto/Sasuke/Sakura

So that's six generations, with Naruto's generation nearing their 20's now.

The math doesn't necessarily add up, but if we assume Kishi was working under the terms of generations, then it is surprising to think that Madara could still be alive 6 generation later.

[Rikudo]

Why do some people here think that the sharingan/MS is unbeatable. I think someone like Gai who sparred enough time with Kakashi can deal with the sharingan.

Also, I think a very skilled blind ninja is not susceptible to the sharingan's genjutsu. I don't remember being introduce to any blind ninja in Naruto but think about it. MS can lead to blindness and blindness can lead to beating a MS user. Oh irony.

[Abdula]

No one thinks MS is unbeatable, the word itself doesn't apply to anything in the Naruto world. I must disagree however dispite everything that was said I doubt Gai would stand much of a chance against MS.

Sure he is used to dealing with sharingan and he more than likely would be able to beat Kakashi on any given day but MS no. One Gai is only used to dealing with normal sharingan and even so only on Kakashi's level and as far as sharingan goes Kakashi has never been the standard barer.

I really don't see Gai being able to deal with either Sasuke or Itachi, one because both their sharingans are stronger than Kakashi's. Two because of speed, Gai's major advantage over Kakashi is speed and not only are the Uchiha's sharingan better which would make it easier for them to follow Gai's movement but they are unbelievably fast, much faster than Kakashi could hope to be so again they would be able to counter his movements easier.

A blind ninja being able to defeat Ms is just nonsensical. Not only would a blind ninja not be able to defeat anyone who can use ninjustsu proficiently but they wouldn't stand any chance against a normal sharingan much less MS. Plus you are ignoring MS's most remarkable ability which is the ability to affect the physical world and although they primarily use doujutsu, because its stronger than other genjutsus, it isn't the only type of genjutsu there is.

[Konohamaru]

Um, Tobi is Madara. What are you talking about?

If madara is tobi, why did tobi join akatsuki recently and why does he sound like a kid. In another chapter page, we see Tobi again ordering everyone about. Surely a newbie shouldn't gain leadership that quick. I think there is 2 bodies that look the same.

[Sidnne]

If madara is tobi, why did tobi join akatsuki recently and why does he sound like a kid. In another chapter page, we see Tobi again ordering everyone about. Surely a newbie shouldn't gain leadership that quick. I think there is 2 bodies that look the same.


Did you not read the last 20 chapters or so? It's been confirmed that Tobi is Madara.

[Yukimura]

@Konohamaru: Did it ever occur to you that Tobi might just be acting like an immature idiot?

[Idealistic]

Can someone tell me where it has been stated that MS makes your Sharingan MUCH better? (For instance, MS is like a 4th comma or whatever.)

As far as my knowledge goes, MS only gives you access to doujutsus and all that other neat stuff. I've never heard of MS acting like a 4th comma.

I must have missed where this was stated....

[Death BOO Z]

now we know why Kyuubi is helping Naruto so much.
he wants revenge, maybe even he wants to kill Madara and gain the Sharingan himself.

anyway, I still think all Uchiha's are stupid. they've been in the same room for over a month and cant even finish a stare down contest. honestly, why can't one of them flip out and kill the other? or flip out and escape if he ain't gonna flip out and kill. they're ninjas, for god's sake.

[Abdula]

I don't think the Kyuubi wants revenge per say he doesn't seem the vengeful type. He would probably destroy the village just for the heck of it though. Itachi isn't interested in killing Sasuke atleast not at this point and I doubt more than a few minutes have passed.

Can someone tell me where it has been stated that MS makes your Sharingan MUCH better? (For instance, MS is like a 4th comma or whatever.)

As far as my knowledge goes, MS only gives you access to doujutsus and all that other neat stuff. I've never heard of MS acting like a 4th comma.

I must have missed where this was stated....

Its never been stated that MS makes the sharingan better and I've never seen anyone post anything suggesting that and its tomoe.

[Konohamaru]

@Konohamaru: Did it ever occur to you that Tobi might just be acting like an immature idiot?

I know that but it's just weird how Tobi/Madara would be acting like that. Someone who mastered the mangekyou, thought with the 1st, possibly summoned the kyuubi, was co founder of the village and looks a total bad ass and acts like a kid?

If I had that reputation on my back I wouldn't be acting like a child. If Madara survived this long, perhaps he took the body of Obito somehow. I'm still not ruling out obito still being alive. I won't however assume he's Tobi/Madara just yet though.

[Yukimura]

I would think when if you've lived 200+ years and can summon giant evil demons and order around super talented ninja criminals you should be able to act however the heck you want.

Besides, it's not like there isn't a precedent, Jraiya acted like an idiot ladies man all the time and he was one of the strongest ninja in the Narutoverse and Kakkashi reads a hentai novel in his spare time. Being a badass ninja doesn't mean you have to be serious all the time, in fact the mor badass a ninja is the less need to be serious all the time.

[Xyches]

I would think when if you've lived 200+ years and can summon giant evil demons and order around super talented ninja criminals you should be able to act however the heck you want.

Besides, it's not like there isn't a precedent, Jraiya acted like an idiot ladies man all the time and he was one of the strongest ninja in the Narutoverse and Kakkashi reads a hentai novel in his spare time. Being a badass ninja doesn't mean you have to be serious all the time, in fact the mor badass a ninja is the less need to be serious all the time.

By that logic Naruto should be the most powerful Ninja of all.



Yes I see the hole in my logic just bored.

[Assassin]

Being a badass ninja doesn't mean you have to be serious all the time, in fact the mor badass a ninja is the less need to be serious all the time.


Haha, ya thats like an unwritten rule in every anime. All the most badass characters tend to act cool/goofy.

[Dark Dragon]

By that logic Naruto should be the most powerful Ninja of all.



Yes I see the hole in my logic just bored.

Since he is the main character, it's very likely that will be true.

[Abdula]

Since he is Naruto, its also likely that will never be true.