Naruto Chapter 384

[toonice714]

the raw is out. http://narutofan.com/multimedia/manga%20volume%2041%20to%2045

[Sidnne]

EDIT: Translation on MangaHelpers (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23616)
Not much dialogue at all.


Pretty cool chapter. Hopefully we'll see a translation soon.

[Naruto_RNG]

good chapter. very few words lol
so this one is the double issue which means we won't get a chapter next week right?

[Rikudo]

If this is really the end for Itachi, this is going to be the lamest akatsuki death ever.

[Abdula]

Oh Please, Itachi won't die that easily. So what all the epic build up would be for a battle that lasted what about 2 minutes and didn't involve MS whatsoever. This is just more teaser.

It was damn good though during the beginning all that was going through my head was, yes Itachi is putting Sasuke in his place. I still don't think Sasuke is ready though but he has shown alot of new tricks since we last saw him, its really impressive.

Begs the question would Naruto even stand a chance against Sasuke in a battle, last time he put on a good show but that was all it was a show. He couldn't beat Sasuke then and I don't think he would even be able to land a finger on him now but I'm sure we'll get to talk about that later.

[Sidnne]

I don't think we are going to see an extended fight here. Like Abdula said, this is just a teaser.

I believe Itachi is simply testing Sasuke to see how strong he has become, to see if he is ready to learn the truth about the Uchiha clan and defeat Madara. Hopefully Itachi will reveal some stuff to Sasuke within the next few chapters.

[Assertn]

Hard to follow at first, but it's good stuff nonetheless.
Begs me to start a poll, in fact...

[darkmetal505]

Itachi has a triple-layer genjutsu going, I just know it.

[Yukimura]

Naruto 384 Scanslation by Rydan (http://www.sendspace.com/file/rtrc5k)

Triple Layer Genjutsu seems lame, but having such a major fight end so abruptly wouldn't really be in step with the rest of the series so something will have to happen. Hopefully Itachi will be at least somewhat fazed but I doubt he's going to be dead next chapter.

[Death BOO Z]

Sasuke is pracitcally begging for a photoshop edit that'll make him ask something like
"who will be the next american idol?"
seriously, he's begging for it.
also, I bet the anime version is going to ruin this fight (as if it wasn't stupid enough) by having Itachi crows call Sasuke stupid (the whole cliche' crow "ahou" sound effect), though, it has the potentiel to become a classic.

Nitpicking:
is Sasuke's chidori shokwave really that short range (about 2 meters) or is Sasuke Faster than his own shockwave?
also, Itachi should wear his ring on his RIGHT hand (pages: 2,12,13,15) but it moves over to the LEFT hand in page six. what gives?


yes, I was really looking for something bad to say

[Rikudo]

If Itachi turns out to be just messing with Sasuke, he might as well put the ring on his penis and tell Sasuke to bend over.

[iMUSTbeTHEdevil]

Naruto 384 Scanslation by Rydan (http://www.sendspace.com/file/rtrc5k)

Triple Layer Genjutsu seems lame, but having such a major fight end so abruptly wouldn't really be in step with the rest of the series so something will have to happen. Hopefully Itachi will be at least somewhat fazed but I doubt he's going to be dead next chapter.


RAR format? Who does that?

[DB_Hunter]

RAR format? Who does that?

Rydan, obviously.

Its legit though, if thats what you are wondering.

[mr3vi1m0nk3y]

Itachi has a triple-layer genjutsu going, I just know it.

Has to be, Itachi is a master at genjutsu. Theres just no way he'll die because of one. On that fact both fighters have mastered their sharingan (excluding mangekyo) so how are they catching each other in genjutsu? I thought that one of the sharingan's powers was to see through it?

[joker-kun]

Yeah Itachi is definetely not finished. If he is the show went from awesome to absolute shit. Oh and main as well say right off the bat that Sasuke is the strongest in the show (if he killed Itachi). Oro killed in like 2 chapters, Itachi in one. It would just be ridiculous.

I think it's more likely and obvious that Itachi isn't finished. He is a genius and probably knew Sasuke would adapt to their previous and therefore adapted to that. Hopefully we get to hear Sasuke's question and Itachi's answer though, and hopefully some explanation from Itachi.

[DB_Hunter]

Yeah there is no way Itachi is dead. I think this time he will probably play dead for longer, just to hear Sasuke's question. Once he is done and even given the answer, he will show Sasuke that he is still a little punk.

As for the question, I think its going to be something along the lines of "Why did you really do it, or did you not care me/Uchiha at all to do something like this or do you regret doing what you have done".

[itadakimasu]

I think itachi is working his genjetsu and sasuke just isn't focused enough to see through it.

[February]

I agree with people that this chapter is just a teaser...there is no way Itachi could die this early and suddenly. Well Mangekyou might not be the ultimate finish move for either of these Uchihas because of what Itachi said last time, something about having a sharingan can resist verses Mangekyou. I know that Kakashi couldn't handle MS with his sharingan but I'm led to believe that happened because Kakashi wasn't of Uchiha blood. And we don't even know if Sasuke acquired the Mangekyou yet...

i'm also enjoying Sasuke's constant use of snake-like jutsus to support his main jutsus...can totally see the Orochimaru's training influence on him

i just pray that the next chapter is a continuation of this fight, rather than frog goes back to Konoha type of thing...i can't stand the tease from this chapter

[darkshadow]

no, itachi said, its true that the sharingan can resist the effects of sharingan, then he mangekyou'ed and zapped him.

[Sidnne]

i just pray that the next chapter is a continuation of this fight, rather than frog goes back to Konoha type of thing...i can't stand the tease from this chapter

I'm actually hoping for the opposite. We KNOW that Itachi is not dead, anyone who thinks he's dead is a damn fool and should stop reading the manga now. We can also be pretty sure that we won't see a climax to "Itachi vs Sasuke" here.

I'm not really interested in just seeing "cool action"; if this fight is just a teaser with no answered questions, then I would rather skip it and move on to something that progresses the story.

[Assertn]

Itachi put Sasuke under Tsukuyomi when he asked him "what do your eyes see?"

[DeathscytheVII]

Yes, then sasuke will undergo three days worth of torture since he doesn't have the MS. or at least, he isn't revealed yet to have one.

Two things I hope to see from this fight.

1.) Itachi using his "black fire" (dunno the jpn name) technique that he used to escape from Jiraiya's frog stomach attack. Supposedly one of his strongest attacks like Tsukuyomi.

2.) Sasuke's "THAT jutsu"

[SilentSnake]

I see no reason for Itachi to use amaterasu vs Sasuke.

He could use it vs Manda for fun, but Manda is dead anyway :P

[Rikudo]

I think only someone with a sharingan can survive a Tsukuyomi. If it were use against other ninjas, it can result in death.

[iMUSTbeTHEdevil]

Hasnt Tsukuyomi always resulted in inverted colors? Or is that just what the creators are showing us so we have a distinction?

[iMUSTbeTHEdevil]

POOP.


Sorry.



"Its not complex, its comcast"


BULLSHIT ASS INTERNET SERVICE!

[Niner4959]

That's one for Sasuke's Camp, for now.

We got the BS Taijutsu round over with already, time to move onto the more meatier techniques.

[SilentSnake]

sure, they will end up casting ryuuka no jutsu on each other :D

[Abdula]

I believe Itachi is simply testing Sasuke to see how strong he has become, to see if he is ready to learn the truth about the Uchiha clan and defeat Madara. Hopefully Itachi will reveal some stuff to Sasuke within the next few chapters.


I bet the anime version is going to ruin this fight (as if it wasn't stupid enough) by having Itachi crows call Sasuke stupid (the whole cliche' crow "ahou" sound effect), though, it has the potentiel to become a classic.

Nitpicking:
also, Itachi should wear his ring on his RIGHT hand (pages: 2,12,13,15) but it moves over to the LEFT hand in page six. what gives?


yes, I was really looking for something bad to say


Yeah there is no way Itachi is dead. I think this time he will probably play dead for longer, just to hear Sasuke's question. Once he is done and even given the answer, he will show Sasuke that he is still a little punk.




We got the BS Taijutsu round over with already, time to move onto the more meatier techniques.



i just pray that the next chapter is a continuation of this fight, rather than frog goes back to Konoha type of thing...i can't stand the tease from this chapter

Bitches, damn people left me with nothing to say.

Anyway although I'm hoping that we could get this fight over with in the next few chapters since I don't think anything major is going to happen with Itachi but I expect they will go back to konoha and Naruto and the others. I would like them to just finish up the fights, Madara and the leaf, the Uchihas and the Mist ninjas and then go back to konoha but I don't think its going to happen that way.

I wonder if Pein is going to go after Naruto right now since Madara is already there. The two of them should be able to handle the leaf ninjas easily and get Naruto out of the way, too bad Naruto can't die until he becomes hokage.

[chet_chetty]

i have the quirkiest theory on sasuke dealing with tsukiyomi. if tsukiyomi attacks the subconscious to make the conscious think delusions are reality, sasuke has a shield against it. if itachi were to somehow 'land it' on sasuke, sasuke could let oro's subconscious take the hit. oro's subconscious would be the one in sasuke's head going apeshit while sasuke's subconscious and conscious remain perfectly functional. man i'm awesome.

[Abdula]

No, not awesome I could think of a completely different word to describe it but it certainly wouldn't be awesome. As a matter of fact its one of the worst Naruto related theories I've ever heard. It also completely ignores the fact that Sasuke has strong will power, great chakra control, the sharingan and experience with high level genjutsu's all of which make him better against genjutsu.

-Plus he has seen Tsukiyomi before so he knows how it works and he may have MS himself.

[SilentSnake]

Kakashi obtained MS, Sasuke could as well AFAIK.

On the other hand, we can't overestimate sasuke -> he's still emo fag = unpredictable :D

[Idealistic]

-Plus he has seen Tsukiyomi before so he knows how it works and he may have MS himself.

Gee... I made that assumption waaaaaay back on how Kakashi got his. I got flamed by people. I wonder if you will too.

[darkshadow]

Kakashi obtained MS, Sasuke could as well AFAIK.

On the other hand, we can't overestimate sasuke -> he's still emo fag = unpredictable :D

kakashi is also prolly the most gifted ninja of konoha next to sarutobi and minato

[Abdula]

Damn right although I think Minato would be first and Oro would have to fit in there somewhere but Kakashi is definitely the most gifted ninja in the leaf village of his generation.

-What is with the emo fag thing, I never got that. We have seen ninjas far more emotional than Sasuke was and I don't see anyone calling them emo fags. Besides the only emotions I've seen Sasuke display are anger/hatred/resentment so I don't get how he is emotional. Plus his emotions and his sheer will power is what makes him so strong and he isn't like Naruto and his emotions don't backfire on him.

[rockmanj]

Actually, i think it was said that sarutobi was so talented, that he was known as 'the god of ninja' (when he was younger or course). I mean he still was able to defeat 2 former hokages and Oro...so I'd put him on the top of the list.

As for sasuke, he's just got a bad attitude...

[Abdula]

Um the fourth was definitely the most talented he just didn't live very long I don't even think he was anywhere near his peak when he died. I don't know why you think he defeated Oro being that he died and Oro didn't but defeating the kage zombies doesn't really mean much to me since they really were just zombies after Oro put that thing in them.

They really didn't fight much and weren't very competent because they were zombies ofcourse. If it wasn't for the fourth's jutsu Sarutobi would have not only died but he wouldn't have even been able to stop Oro during that battle so I would definitely say that Minato was more talented.

I never heard of this god of ninja thing before. What bad attitude?

[rockmanj]

Well, yes he died, but he had temporarily ( he thought it was permanent) sealed the soul of Oro's arms (hence him having to find a way to heal them). And the kage zombies had all of the abilities of the bodies. If you remember the fight, the anbu were amazed to see the forest genesis jutsu that the 1st used. The only thing Oro put in them was obedience tags so that they would do his bidding; they didn't really lose anything from that, I'm sure. And as for the 'god of ninja' thing, ill post the comment when i find it...which should be soon.

I know that someone called the third the 'god of shinobi', but ill have to look harder; however, it says here http://www.mangavolume.com/naruto/chapter-naruto-094/
on page 12 that "the third was said to be the strongest of all", and I know earlier they lamented that the fourth wasn't around, but that's splitting hairs. I think they meant that if two hokage level ninjas were in the leaf, Oro wouldn't be such a problem.

And what do u mean "what bad attitude?" Sasuke's a lot better now, but he used to be so angsty i could practically hear the cradle of filth cd he listens to...

[SilentSnake]

kakashi is also prolly the most gifted ninja of konoha next to sarutobi and minato

Kakashi being godly doesn't change the fact that if a genius not-uchiha got MS then an insanely talented uchiha could got it, don't you think :confused:

I heard rumors Sasuke is Itachi's brother... :eek:


-What is with the emo fag thing, I never got that. We have seen ninjas far more emotional than Sasuke was and I don't see anyone calling them emo fags. Besides the only emotions I've seen Sasuke display are anger/hatred/resentment so I don't get how he is emotional. Plus his emotions and his sheer will power is what makes him so strong and he isn't like Naruto and his emotions don't backfire on him.

Actually, they did when they encountered oro in the forest of death.

Sasuke is being called emo for various reasons for a long time now, I can't even remember when it started :D

It was a joke on my side though, an awkward way of explaining that he's unpredictable, as in dangerous.

EDIT: ofc Sasuke behaves differently now, but his emotions are still there.

[Abdula]

That is my point Sasuke now is essentially the same as he was back then the only thing that has changed now is that he is stronger, more driven and like he said when he left the village, the only thing he cares about now is Itachi.

His emotions didn't backfire on him when he met Oro, if I remember correctly when Oro did that doujutsu thing he always does Sasuke was able to keep his head together and manage to escape. He was going to give up the scroll in order to save their lives because it was pretty clear that there was no way they would be able to defeat him what backfired on him was Naruto as usual.

He came in acting cool and running off at the mouth as usual thinking that he would be able to defeat Oro even though he has no way to judge an opponent's strength and skill and back then he didn't even have any jutsu's to defeat anyone.


@rockmanj: Yes I know they still had all their abilities but they were zombies which is why I said they weren't particularly competent look at when the third put the explosive tags on them for example they were just standing around "like" zombies. They would have been much better off if Oro hadn't put those tags in them because they were just like puppets after that rather than individual opponents.

Even in that early chapter (god the manga was atrocious back then) all that was said was that the third was said to be the strongest of all hokages and that was from when he was younger and like you said the fourth wasn't around then.

The one hokage that Naruto is trying to surpass and he is constantly being compared to, the one that saved the village and the one that is regarded as the epitome of all ninja is the fourth. Also being that he is Naruto's father and the one person Naruto is destined to surpass as far as plot and the storyline structure is concerned Minato is/was the strongest of all the hokages.

[Yukimura]

Why is Kakashi being touted as the end all be all ninja? IMO his on-screen/ on page record just doesn't support that assessment. Yes he does sweat badass out of every pore and I don't doubt his skills are super elite but he needs to win a high level battle or two without looking flustered and completely worn out at the end before I can really get behind him as 'strongest in the village'. I am confident Pein would wipe the floor with him, I think Itachi could probably still beat him, though he may be able to resist Tsukiyomi more readily now with his own Mangekyou so that's a bit of a toss up. He failed to kill Diedara, though Diedara was running instead of trying to kill him, and he failed to kill Kazuku, though he technically didn't but Kazuku needed to be killed 5 times. But still, for a ninja a failure is a failure. The fact that Akatsuki level ninja's exist yet Kakashi, who is supposedly the strongest regular ninja in Konoha, has to go to the red line to even have a chance at beating them worries me greatly. The only way I can justify it is if Konoha is the strongest village because it's average ninja are better than other villages average ninja, not because it's best ninja are better than other villages best ninja.


What is with the emo fag thing, I never got that. We have seen ninjas far more emotional than Sasuke was and I don't see anyone calling them emo fags. Besides the only emotions I've seen Sasuke display are anger/hatred/resentment so I don't get how he is emotional.

I'm guessing your thinking calling someone 'emo' is another way of simply calling them emotional, however that is not the common usage of the word 'emo', at least in online parlance. Being called 'emo' usually means a person tends to constantly express emotions like angst, anger, hatred, misery and/or resentment toward someone or something in their life. Said emo persons tend to live their lives consumed and strongly controlled by these feelings, basing many of their lifestyle choices around them..

People who hate their lives and want to slit their wrists, people who hate their lives and try to act out by dressing in weird clothes and wearing strange hairdos and listening to angst-filled 'alternative' (usually punk) music, people who hate their lives and sit at home writing angst filled poems about their feelings of hate for their lives while dressed in weird clothes, and listening to angst-filled 'alternative' (usually punk) music, these are all examples of people who would be called 'emo' by online society.

Sasuke has been considered emo for as long as I've been following Naruto, and I suspect it is because he gets so angsty and whiny whenever he's reminded of Itachi or of defeat (and hence Itachi again). He also tends to take actions based in some way on his anger towards Itachi. Plus, he has a fairly emo hairstyle, but that's just my personal opinion.

Post time skip Sasuke seems to be less, or at least differently emo than pre skip Saskue due to reduced angst, however once you're seen as emo it's pretty much impossible for people to not see you as emo until you've completely eliminated any emo tendencies (and sometimes not even then). Until Sasuke stops living and breathing only to kill Itachi he's probably going to be considered emo by quite a few people.

[Abdula]

Ah Yukimura, No one is saying that Kakashi is the end all be all ninja atleast thats not what I was saying. What DS was saying is that Kakashi is probably the most gifted ninja currently in the village which I feel is true, nothing else. No one thinks that Kakashi is the strongest ninja or anything of the sort he is not even in the same league as the major villages in Naruto.

Now I'm just going to randomly quote you:


The fact that Akatsuki level ninja's exist yet Kakashi, who is supposedly the strongest regular ninja in Konoha has to go to the red line to even have a chance at beating them worries me greatly.

That because they are Akatsuki. They comprise the strongest ninja from whichever particular village they are from and Kakashi at best is an upper-mid level opponent no way he could take on an S rank ninja one on one.


The only way I can justify it is if Konoha is the strongest village because it's average ninja are better than other villages average ninja, not because it's best ninja are better than other villages best ninja.


Which is true I think something to that extent was said earlier on in the series. Look at Kakashi for example he is the leaf’s best ninja but he was only on par with Zabuza who was the weakest of the mist swordsmen and I’m guessing only about mid level rank in the village.

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.


Being called 'emo' usually means a person tends to constantly express emotions like angst, anger, hatred, misery and/or resentment toward someone or something in their life. Said emo persons tend to live their lives consumed and strongly controlled by these feelings, basing many of their lifestyle choices around them..

People who hate their lives and want to slit their wrists, people who hate their lives and try to act out by listening to angst-filled 'alternative' music, people who hate their lives and sit at home writing angst filled poems about their feelings of hate for their lives while dressed in weird clothes, and listening to angst-filled 'alternative' music, these are all examples of people who would be called 'emo' by online society.

I find that offensive.:)

[SilentSnake]

His emotions didn't backfire on him when he met Oro, if I remember correctly when Oro did that doujutsu thing he always does Sasuke was able to keep his head together and manage to escape. He was going to give up the scroll in order to save their lives because it was pretty clear that there was no way they would be able to defeat him what backfired on him was Naruto as usual.


When I joined here it was like ep 39 released IIRC, it was when I got hooked up to Naruto and rewatched those eps 2-3 times so I remember it quite clearly :

You forgot this crucial moment when Sasuke stood mortified in front of Oro while Whiny and Completely Useless Sakura was criticizing him after saving Naruto's life by throwing a kunai to hold unconscious Naruto from falling to the ground. (or was it before that?)

Anyway = he got emo and couldn't do shit, I was always Sasuke-liker, but it's just true.
No point in denial.

[Abdula]

Um his thought process then was that if he fought and died he won't be able to achieve his goal of defeating Itachi and Itachi told him to run and live solely to defeat him. The reason he was like that was because he had to decide whether or not he should throw away his goals in order to help Naruto and the others.

It wasn't because he was emotional nor really was it because of Oro it was because of how Itachi told him to live. He had to survive no matter what so going into a battle where his chances of surviving were pretty much nil didn't make any sense which is why he was going to give up the scroll and walk away in the first place. The only thing there is that he was in utter shock at how stupid Naruto was and so was I.

Honestly why Oro didn't kill Naruto then didn't make any sense to me especially considering that Oro was a member of Akatsuki and knew what there goals were. Even later on during the Sannin battle when he tried to kill Naruto it was because he knew what would happen if Akatsuki got there hands on him, he told Tsunade that killing Naruto would be doing them a favor and he was right. I guess the reason he didn't kill Naruto then was because Kishi probably didn't plan on the whole Akatsuki angle yet but still given Oro's character or atleast what his character was made out to be he should have killed Naruto then.

Reeks of plot holes.

[Yukimura]

@Abdula You just find it offensive because it describes you don't you...
As to Oro not killing Naruto some potential spackle would be that Oro saw Naruto as a potential test subject to play with later and didn't think Jiriaya would ever show up and remove his seal, or he might have simply figured sealing the Kyubi chakra and dropping his limp corpse a few hundred feet would do the job.


Another Plot Hole that I find distressing is the Akatsuki membership itself.
The fact that Akatsuki is made up of so many people who demonstrate skill levels at or above the kage level, gives me great cause for concern. Sasori beat the Third Kazekage, Oro beat the Fourth Kazekage, Diedara beat the Fifth Kazekage (I'm starting to think the Sand just plain suck), Oro also compelled the Third Hokage to use a suicide attack, and Pein beat the potential 5th Hokage. Itachi has resoundingly defeated two of those people already (Itachi vs Sasori would have been a really interesting fight I think) putting him on the list, and Kazuku fought the First Hokage and lived to tell the tale. It feels like something is wrong when the 'strongest ninjas in the village' are so often beaten by rejects. Maybe being in a village really does make you weaker as an individual fighter, like [whoever said that] said.

[Abdula]

Actually apart form dressing "weirdly" yeah it does describe me or someone I used to be I should say then again a refined scholar from a middle class family could've described me back then too (oh how things have changed). I'm sure it could describe alot of people too but I don't particularly care I was just being funny.

I highly doubt that Oro thought that dropping Naruto would kill him and if he was going to kill him he certainly would have done so in a more direct manner. Certainly putting the seal won't have stopped Akatsuki from capturing Naruto, in fact it would have only made it easier if Naruto couldn't use the kyuubi at all. Oro supposedly wanted to stop are atleast hinder Akatsuki for some reason other than the fact that they were trying to kill him ( I suppose a group of S rank ninjas who control the bijuu dominating the world didn't sit too well with him)and since the Kyuubi is their biggest target I think eliminating it then would have been what he would have done since he did attempt to do it later.

Anyway this brings up another plot hole, whether or not killing Naruto would kill the Kyuubi but it doesn't make sense discussing that now.

The Kazekages being killed of so easily bothered me too. It just goes to show that the hokages really aren't always the strongest ninjas in the village. But you could look at it another way as you've said being in a village really could make you weak. The kages are all S rank ninjas but they are always in a village which could create complacency and since they are in a village they would come to rely on others and not increase their own strength. Come to think of it isn't that one of the reasons why Itachi killed the Uchiha clan, because they became complacent and didn't "test the limits of their capacity." Two the kages are a protected position so they don't actually participate in many or any battles and no matter how strong you are/were if you go a long time without fighting your skills will become dull.

On the other hand the Akatsuki members are all rogue ninjas who survive on their own and are in constant battles. Since their survival depends entirely on their own strength they will unceasingly attempt to become stronger and keep growing and the constant battling would only further heighten their senses and allow them to hone their skills.

So Akatsuki members will always be at their peaks and they will always be ready for and expecting battles where as the hokages are sheltered and protected. If you look at it that way then in a battle the rogue ninja will always defeat the sheltered one.

[SilentSnake]

Um his thought process then was that if he fought and died he won't be able to achieve his goal of defeating Itachi and Itachi told him to run and live solely to defeat him. The reason he was like that was because he had to decide whether or not he should throw away his goals in order to help Naruto and the others.

If he chose to stand and think about THAT instead of saving a friend or at least DO something then he must have been thinking way too deep = emo :p

And not very ninja'ish either...

Even Sakura was less distracted, and at the time Sakura was the winner of every "Who should die first" or "Which character Kishimoto should remove from Naruto" polls cause her mastery of uselessness was too annoying for anyone to handle...

Just face it, he screwed up back then :p

EDIT: It was clearly said in anime/manga that if Naruto dies = Kyuubi dies

That's pretty much why Kyuubi chose to help him at all in the first place.

[Abdula]

I don't really think of it as screwing up he was in a lose lose situation and he did eventually make the "right" decision so.....

When was it clearly said and even if it was said Kishi changes things ever so often. If the Kyuubi will die if Naruto dies then why were they afraid of the Kyuubi being released in the event of Naruto's death and why did the Kyuubi warn Sasuke not to kill Naruto.

I thought the Kyuubi just tried to help Naruto because he was attempting to gain Naruto's trust and convince Naruto to release him. If the kyuubi's existence rely depends on Naruto's life then he should have started "helping" Naruto earlier and if his life really depends on Naruto then he certainly doesn't seem to care much about it.

[SilentSnake]

I don't really think of it as screwing up he was in a lose lose situation and he did eventually make the "right" decision so.....

I didn't critize him for his decision, I only wanted to pinpoint the fact that his emotions did backfire at him at this very point, nothing more.

Right now he doesn't lose control over himself cause he matured.

His fights are awesome to watch, he's focused and brilliant with indifferent face as if he was just solving yet another riddle, He seems well prepared for this encounter, but I think it's just Kishi playing with us.

On the other hand, I doubt that Itachi will just own Sasuke easily, I place my bet on tactical retreat with some smart talk at the end with Itachi being pleased that Sasuke got stronger than he anticipated.

EDIT: I think they were afraid of Kyuubi being released in a way that Naruto dies BECAUSE he is taken over by Kyuubi (tails formation and Naruto losing control over himself). Can't be sure about that one though. Kyuubi would never help Naruto if his death meant his release, he helps him because that's the only way he can live longer and wait for a chance to be released. As for Kyuubi warning Sasuke to not kill Naruto = dunno, can't remember :D

[Abdula]

Thats the way Itachi fights he is always reserved and never goes all out. Itachi and everyone else expects that Sasuke will eventually surpass him and this is just another test, I hope we'll soon find out for what. Sasuke's fighting style and tactics are obviously heavily influenced by his training with Oro, Kabuto and Oro were the same way. Most of the ninjas in Naruto are too its has more to do with knowing your own strengths and limitations than anything else.

At the rate its going Naruto being taken over by the Kyuubi will literally kill him and destroy his body not just simply release the kyuubi so I don't think thats it.

[SilentSnake]

At the rate its going Naruto being taken over by the Kyuubi will literally kill him and destroy his body not just simply release the kyuubi so I don't think thats it.

Kyuubi just being released out of Naruto's mouth/ass with Naruto undamaged would be fun to see :D

[rockmanj]

Kyuubi just being released out of Naruto's mouth/ass with Naruto undamaged would be fun to see :D

I wholly disagree with that; I mean i know its a spirit and all, but still...well, actually it probably wouldnt be that bad. It seems most powerful justus come out the mouth anyway.

[SilentSnake]

I wonder how long would it take for Naruto to puke almost Infinite amount of chakra out of him.

Sounds like an idea for a filler episode, or even an arc...

I bet Oro would be able to pull it off 5 times faster :D

[Darky]

Well it could just be the Kyuubi warning Sasuke not to kill Naruto could just be about self preservation. Make it sound like a threat and it looks like it has a deeper meaning to it while all the Kyuubi wants is to have Naruto survive long enough for Kyuubi to take over.

And Oro should really just be a girl, i'm pretty sure it would've driven Jiraiya crazy back in the days. Oro who would be able to do just about anything involving her mouth and well we know Tsunade.

[darkshadow]

Ok lets see. according to the databooks, and his known history, kakashi is currently the most gifted ninja and strongest jounin in konoha.
During the 3rd great ninja war, that we see in the gaiden, minato AND kakashi became pretty famous, minato for his crazy yellow flash thing technique, and kakashi for beating the shit out of jounins at his young age.
After jiraiya asked tsunade who would become hokage if she died ( or something), she stated 1st, we have kakashi.......and naruto, not gai, anko or the other strong jounins we know.

Kakashi stated himself that his stamina isn't that high, and from what i concluded from the zabuza fight, he doesn't feel like tiring himself needlesly, at first the fight seemed to be pretty even or even in favor of zabuza, but after kakashi got serious he turned it around so fast, he was back handing zabuza with his eyes closed.

Also jiraiya mananged to fight 3 peins before seeing he needed to go hermit (iirc), I don't think 1 pein would "wipe the floor" with kakashi, you are forgetting that sharingan is a very powerful tool, without it, sasuke wouldve never beaten kyuubi naruto. Also i think its fair to say since pein beat jiraiya, he would beat nearly anyone else.

He failed to kill deidara yes, but he was using his attack for the very first time, he even needed to activate it via a handseal, which is unusual for normal mangekyou, still he managed to zap off an arm at that altitude/movementspeed. He zapped away an entire explosion later on.

Deidara beating gaara, well deidara was just the perfect opponent for him(flight, mixing clay with sand), actually deidara is the perfect opponent for everyone if there is a wide open space, gaara managed to counter so well cause of his control over sand, which was all over the place, i bet that if sasori went in there he would've died a horrible death.

Also don't forget his ability to open gates.

For known genius lvl konoha ninja i think it would be ranked as:
1. sarutobi, youngest hokage ever "god of all ninja" "the professor"
2. minato, yellow flash
3. kakashi, pure absolute genius, mangekyou sharingan
4. Itachi, pure genius, mangekyou sharingan.


Been awhile since i did a long post. meh

Oh and that's why i dont think some barely semi-genius ninja (sasuke) couldve attained mangekyou in a similar fashion.

[Abdula]

Two important things you left out were that Kakashi’s goal was not to kill Deidara what he was trying to do then was protect Naruto who was chasing after Gaara’s dead body and then get back to Sakura and Chiyo. Killing Deidara was not his intention and like most of the leaf ninjas Kakashi is pretty laid back more so than anyone else in the village besides Shikamaru ofcourse, so if they can win or finish a battle without having to go too far or push themselves then that is what they would try to do.

About Deidara defeating Gaara, Gaara should have and would have won that battle if not for him having to save the sand village. Gaara was stronger than Deidara, he had a superior technique and he had a massive advantage. The reason he lost was because as Deidara said he did the typical Kage thing and sacrificed himself to save the village.

Sasori v Deidara....... ha.

Minato was the youngest Hokage ever not the third and although the third was regarded as the strongest that was strictly because of the fact that he knew so many jutsus. Secondly the fourth like I said in previous posts would have to have been the strongest strictly because of the plot and he was said to be the greatest ninja the village ever produced so I don't see how Sarutobi could have been better than him. Plus I never heard of Sarutobi having any original jutsu's and the strongest jutsus we've seen thus far Hiraishin, Shiki Fujin and Rasengan were the fourth's original techniques thus he was stronger than Sarutobi just by the level of his techniques alone.

As for your list, this is what mine would look like although there are far too many ninjas to mention them all but the major ones would be:

1. Madara, major villain in the story thus most likely stronger than almost everyone else, genius founder of the Uchiha clan also he supposedly summoned the Kyuubi.

2. Shodai, founder of the leaf village, first hokage, supposedly defeated Madara

3. Minato, greatest ninja the village ever produced, youngest hokage, creator of the strongest jutsus, defeated Kyuubi.

4. Jiraiya, Oro, Itachi. I put them before the third because the rule is in Naruto that the next generation always surpasses the previous ones and I believe Oro and Jiraiya most definitely surpassed their teacher. Oro is an obvious mad genius and although people don't view Jiraiya as one he most certainly was. Itachi is there because he is an obvious genius, he is incredibly strong and he did wipe out the most gifted clan in leaf history including his father who I assume was also considered a great "genius." I didn't want to put him in front of Jiraiya since I don't think he was "stronger" than Jiraiya although I would consider him more of a genius than Jiraiya was. Itachi did defeat Oro something Jiraiya was unable to do yet I don't think Jiraiya would lose to Itachi but based solely on "genius" it would be Itachi, Oro, then Jiraiya but I'm putting them on the same level.


5. Sarutobi. He was trained by the Hokages and taught the Sannin. Old man was great, clearly he had to be a genius just to learn every technique in the village, he couldn’t master them all ofcourse but still to know all of them damn.

6. Sasuke, not a semi genius a true genius who already defeated one of the people I put above him namely Oro and is destined to defeat Itachi. I also put him in this spot because by rule the next generation is supposed to surpass the previous one and Sasuke has clearly surpassed this next person. In case anyone was wondering I would put Tsunade in the five spot as well behind Sasuke but I don't care to talk about her.

7. Next up we have Kakashi, son of the genius White Fang, student of the fourth hokage, teacher of team seven, leaf's number one ninja and clearly a gifted ninja.

Then we have Shikaku and Shikamaru Nara although strength wise I'm not sure where they would rank but they are exceptionally intelligent and fulfill the role of the more traditional genius. Then we have Neji and the Hyuuga clan followed by the rest of the riff-raff.

- Now that is what you would call a long post.

[darkshadow]

Minato was the youngest Hokage ever not the third and although the third was regarded as the strongest that was strictly because of the fact that he knew so many jutsus. Secondly the fourth like I said in previous posts would have to have been the strongest strictly because of the plot and he was said to be the greatest ninja the village ever produced so I don't see how Sarutobi could have been better than him. Plus I never heard of Sarutobi having any original jutsu's and the strongest jutsus we've seen thus far Hiraishin, Shiki Fujin and Rasengan were the fourth's original techniques thus he was stronger than Sarutobi just by the level of his techniques alone.


lolwut? why would I say something without having a profound reason for it, sarutobi WAS the youngest hokage ever, and i don't think there will be ever anyone younger then him, he was the ultimate ninja who didn't have any special abilities like bya/shar/rinnegan, or a crazy hax jutsu like hiraishin no jutsu the 4th had, yet he became the strongest ninja ever.
If 1st in his prime could've beaten Madara, I don't think sarutobi in his prime would've had any problem with him either.

For this same reason I place kakashi as a higher lvl genius then itachi, since kakashi became chuunin/jounin/anbu all younger then itachi and without sharingan, which he gained at the aftermath of the 3rd war.
Same reason i don't regard sasuke as a genius, cause just like obito said:
"Though i'm called "Elite" cause i was born into the Uchiha clan.........I'm a loser."
Yet Obito activated sharingan with 2-2 tomoe's, sasuke only 2-1 tomoe's.
Sasuke came as far as he is now cause of orochimaru's teachings and ofcourse sharingan, not cause of some innate genius.

Oh and if we are gonna place more dead ppl in the list of genius ppl, kakashi's father is prolly up there with sarutobi.

Oh and here is proof ofcourse, since you won't believe me:
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/3334/hokage1ur5.jpg
http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/226/hokage2mo8.jpg
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/8485/hokage3pp0.jpg
The more i look at it the crazier sarutobi becomes for me.

[Abdula]

Dude I'm very disappointed with you. One you called Hiraishin a hax and completely ignored the fact that I also mentioned Rasengan and Shiki Fujin. The latter of which was the only thing the "great" third could do to even hinder Orochimaru.

Then you say the old man who couldn't even beat Oro would have been able to defeat Madara, pure BS.

Then you talk about you consider Kakashi more of a genius that Itachi because he became a chuunin etc before Itachi. Kakashi graduated at about age 5 and became a chuunin at age 6, Itachi graduated at 7 and became a chuunin at ten, they joined the anbu at around the same age. Now the reason I think your reasoning is flawed here is because a few years especially when they are that young doesn't really mean anything and Itachi has already clearly surpassed Kakashi. Secondly what age you achieve your accomplishments doesn't matter, its how far you go look at Kakashi he started early and he peaked early. Its about potential and when you talk about potential Kakashi isn't even in Itachi's league. I suppose you think Kakashi was more of a genius than someone like Orochimaru too then.

About the sharingan so you discredit all of Itachi accomplishments because he had the sharingan, so it doesn't count because he had natural gifts that gave him an advantage over everyone. That doesn't make any sense he had natural gifts, talents and abilities you can't take anything away from him because one of them happened to be a bloodline limit. So Neji isn't talented because he had a bloodline limit right, or someone like Shikamaru who though you may dispute it his talents, and his intelligence are also natural and are a result of his "bloodline." If so you should take away from Kakashi's accomplishments too because he is the son of The White Fang, a ninja who was on the level of the sannin and who for the early part of Kakashi's life trained him personally. If not for him not only would Kakashi not be as talented as he is because his talent too comes from his "bloodline" but he wouldn't have had his accomplishments so young if he wasn't trained since birth by someone who essentially was a sannin.

Now we come to Sasuke he activated his Sharingan when he was twelve, Obito when he was thirteen not much difference there and the fact that he had only one tomoe in one eye at that point doesn't matter because almost immediately afterwards he was 2-2 as you put it. Then you go on to say that Sasuke came as far as he did because of Orochimaru's teachings and the sharingan not because of innate genius. Well how could he have learned and progressed so much if not for some innate genius. IF you take the time to think about it the reason Naruto was not able to progress much during the time skip was because he has no innate genius or talent and you certainly won't be able to learn, master or excel at anything like Sasuke did if you have no talent for it. How about the fact that Sasuke was the number one ninja from his graduating class and was obviously above all the other rookies even though at that point he didn't have the sharingan.

Its funny that you disregard Sasuke and Itachi because they have the sharingan yet you think so highly of Kakashi who if not for the sharingan would be just an average level ninja. Certainly without the sharingan he wouldn't be the leaf's number one ninja and he would be completely useless against Akatsuki. He most certainly won't have the copy ninja moniker without it.

Oh and if you are talking about people being as strong as they are solely because of who taught them, I know I already mentioned Kakashi and his dad but what about the third hokage who you regard so highly. He was trained by not one but two hokages, one of which happened to be the founder of the leaf village.

The reason I didn't put some people on the list like Kakashi's dad, or the second hokage for that matter was because we have seen and or know very little/absolutely nothing about them.

As for your "proof" if you're idiotic enough to believe that the third became hokage at that point when he was about I would say 12 then you are a complete idiot. Things that disprove this, one the fourth was said to be the youngest hokage, no way a 12 year old was the hokage, if he did become hokage then and the first was obviously still alive at that point then when did the second ever reign as hokage. Since the third died when he was 69 you're saying that he was hokage for a span of 57 years not including the fourth's reign. The faces of the hokage on the mountain alone disprove this since you would think that the faces would be carved into the mountain soon after a new kage is appointed. It happened sometime within the 2.5 years since Tsunade became hokage yet the third is obviously in his late 30's or early 40's there.

Another reason why that is wrong is because the third wasn't the hokage when he was the teacher of the sannin, the hokage has many responsibilities and certainly the hokage doesn't have the time to be teaching their own teams. Take team seven for example Kakashi only got his own team of genin to teach after he left the anbu because at that point he had no other responsibilities beyond completing the missions he was assigned. The third became hokage after he taught the sannin because after he became hokage he had immediately decided that Oro would be his eventual succesor at that point Oro was still "good." Yet another reason why that is wrong is because of Danzou. Danzou was supposed to have competed against Sarutobi for the position of hokage and based on his appearance I would say he is either in his late 50's or early to mid 60's so he would be even younger than the third.

You know why its crazy because its wrong, the text could have simply been wrong or it was obviously intended to show that at that point they began training the third to become the future hokage.

[Yukimura]

Abdula managed to wedge a rational and well supported point into all of his geneic "you're stupid" comments!? This is unprecedented...

I would have to agree that the Hokage's passing on the title scene was probably more of a "you're going to be next" type thing based on the other occurances in the story at times in the past. However I have to agree with DS about the innate special ability aspect. Having a special ability is cool and all and tends to make a ninja much better if fully mastered, however anyone who can go toe to toe with the best of the people with special abilities when they have only traditional skills, talent for picking things up, and hard work deserves more points.

Having a special ability doesn't automatically make a ninja amazing, but it tends to give them a much higher peak potential than a mundane ninja, as well as give them at least some degree of a natural advantage over a normal person. Even if a special ability user hasn't fully mastered their ability they still get some amount of benefit from it that a normal person wouldn't have through natural ability alone. Sasuke's Sharingan is a good example, seconds after it activated it helped him start turning the tide of a battle he was losing while still working with only a normal skill set. It also allowed him to instantly learn to perform techniques Lee had to train for years to perfect the form of. Sure Sasuke was great without it, but once he obtained it and started using it it cheapened him by giving him a shorter path to greatness than he would have had to follow without it.

Another good example is Hinata, she seems pretty weak and essentially useless as a fighter, however she has an innate special ability and a fighting style that is built around that special ability and these gives her a boost in combat that serve to offset her otherwise poor ninja stats. Without Byakugan and Genle Fist Hinata would just be a dumber pre-skip Sakura.

Then you have someone like Itachi, the Sharingan grand master. To my knowledge the only thing we've seen Itachi do without the Sharingan is cast a genjutsu on Naruto and move his hands very quickly. Since we haven't seen Itachi do anything major without the Sharingan activated, it's hard to guess how capable he would be if it was some how disabled. His accomplishments with the Sharingan are amazing and he has clearly trained it hard and honed it with effort, but it is still gives him a huge natural advantage that a non-user could never duplicate through simple training. When it comes to winning fights of course, having mastered the Sharingan is going to leas to a lot of success, but I don't think that success is as praiseworthy as that of someone like Jiraiya who only seems to possesses techniques he either created himself of learned from others.

[Abdula]

Really all of that is just the advantage you get from having natural abilities. Its no different from someone whose family has a history of being either athletically or intellectually gifted being naturally good at athletics or academics. Sure it would be easier to them than it is for others in some cases like Sasuke and or Neji compared to Lee, it may even be second nature but that cannot and should not take away from their accomplishments. Kakashi doesn't have any special abilities which is exactly why Kakashi he doesn't stand a chance against Akatsuki who all have special abilities. Sure it may be unfair that some things come easy to some people while others may work at it for years and still never be good at it or as successful as others but that is just life.

The fact that they have special abilities that give them obvious benefits or increase their potential far beyond what anyone else could hope to accomplish doesn't mean that anyone should belittle them.

Naruto for example has the Kyuubi which should give him a major advantage over everyone else but he can't utilize it properly. In fact you could say that if anyone else possessed the Kyuubi they would make better use of it. Then there are people like Lee would know they have no natural talent, gifts or abilities so they work hard to overcome that disadvantage. Then there are guys like Neji who despite all his natural gifts and abilities still works hard to constantly improve himself. Then there are people like Hinata who have no great aspirations and choose to just rely solely on their natural abilities. Its just life some people have to work harder than others to accomplish the same things and some people no matter how hard they work will never accomplish what someone else was able to do.


Abdula managed to wedge a rational and well supported point into all of his generic "you're stupid" comments!? This is unprecedented...

STFU, I always do that, this is not unprecedented. I know sometimes it may not appear that way but there are very good reasons for that. One of which is that sometimes I'm just in shock by the sheer stupidity of some posts I read.

[darkshadow]

*sigh*, Yuki this is exactly why i hate elaborating and making long posts, in the end its just a huge waste of time.

[Abdula]

Hey I don't think its a waste of time. Even if I disagree with you I still enjoy reading your posts. Long posts where you clearly state your opinion result in great discussion and atleast then I know where you stand. Its way better that the one or two sentence meaningless posts we get from some people.

Post On.

[FullMetalAlchemist]

i wanna put my 2 cents into the last few post since i haven't posted since xmas.
(warning long post skip if ure not into readin alot lol :) )

The ages of kakashi becoming a jounin and itachi becoming a jounin shouldn't go into consideration when talking about skill nor the activation of sharingan between itachi/sasuke/obito. The main reason is all of these people were brought up in diffrent times. Kakashi was brought up in a time of war of course there ninja would have more experience in battle because they maybe have been forced into nijna fights instead of finding a pet for someone (IE:team 7's first few missions finding pets/cleaning garbage) I doubt the village took such jobs during war time.

If im not mistaken the viallge was in a peaceful time (none war) when itachi was around so he may have been a genius but maybe the village wasn't pushing it's ninjas as hard to move forward as chunin/jounin, if he killed the whole clan he would have to be powerful at a young age i doubt he just gained a huge ass power boost when he became 12 out of no where.. He still faced danger at an early age to gain the sharingan though so he was most likely in some high lvl missions at an early age. which comes to the sharigan being obtained and what ages has to do with it which is.....nothing. It is activated when a uchiha is in danger or pushed to the limit, look how obito and sasuke gained it they where both in mortal danger. Sasuke can't control when he would be placed in a real mission to even experience battle and gain the sharigan.

Ok with the strongest 5 ninjas in the village i would have to go with...
1.4th hokage: he created some of the strongest justsu's we have seen, he defeated the kyubbi in a sense, and as we saw in kakashi gaiden he was feared and could take out large groups of ninja easily by himself.

2. 1st hokage/madara: im placing them together because they were the founders of the village, both having very powerful bloodlines and madara had mangekyou. even with that the first beat him. but i keep them together cause madara is still alive some how.

3. 3rd hokage: yes he died without killing oro i understand that, but oro even said it if he was 10 years younger before that fight he would have won old age played a big part in that battle. He knew all jutsu in the viallage need i say more.

4. Itachi: He smacked around kakashi an oro i can't place either of them ahead of him and oro ranks up with the rest of the sanin so i can't put jiraya here either. yes i know he ran from jiraya but he was already weakened from using MS multiple times in a short period. Also he took out the whole uchiha clan and second person to activate MS ever.

5. oro/jiraya: im placing them together cause i believe they are both stronger then tsunade (all we've seen from her is strenth/healing capabilities) but we never seen them against each other at full stregth against each other to choose who is stronger. Both have many jutsu's, the both where under consideration to become hokage at one point.

Well thats my opinion we are all intitled to one, I can't place kakashi up here nor the 2nd hokage (we never really seen him in action nor recieved much info on him). Kakashi could not beat itachi, he stated himself during the chunin exam that he couldn't beat oro (not sure now but we will never find out sadly) and his stamina is horrible when using sharingan since it is not his own (reason why is stamina is low sharingan eats more of his chakra then an uchiha using sharingan).

[Abdula]

Nice post. I agree with everything you said and although I do believe the fourth was the strongest I put him behind Madara and The First strictly because of the Kyuubi and since Madara is still alive its safe to assume that he has gotten stronger since then. I put Sarutobi behind Oro and the other because as Oro said he most definitely was much weaker because of his age but I have no idea exactly how the battle would have changed if he was younger.

At most what could have happened is that he would have had enough strength left to pull out all of Oro's soul which I don't think could have happened since that would've drastically changed the rest of the plot if Oro had died then. Honestly I just haven't seen enough of Sarutobi for me to rank him higher than I did.

[joker-kun]

Just a question. I can't remember but was Oro ever completely better after Sarutobi's technique?

[DB_Hunter]

I don't think so. I can't recall him ever performing hand seals again.

[Abdula]

Yeah he was after switching to a new body and absorbing that person's soul he was completely healed. Oh and he did perform hand seals in his battle with 4 tailed Naruto when he summoned his shield.

[rockmanj]

Don't know if i agree with those rankings, but no use beating a dead horse. There is one thing I kind of do not get. They say the 3rd knew all the jutsu of the leaf, but at the same time, Kakashi (while the 3rd was still alive) was called the leaf's number one technician. Maybe that was just hyperbole to hype Kakashi up, but that doesn't really make much sense to me...oh well.

And something tells me that if the 3rd were younger, he wouldn't have had to resort to that soul stealing to beat Oro...he probably could have used some ridiculously monstrous jutsu or something; but he's dead now, so thats pure speculation (as are these rankings).

oh yea, it was said that the 3rd woulda mopped the floor with Oro if we wasnt so sentimental...

[SilentSnake]

And something tells me that if the 3rd were younger, he wouldn't have had to resort to that soul stealing to beat Oro...he probably could have used some ridiculouly monstrous jutsu or something; but he's dead now, so thats pure speculation (as are these rankings).

Yup, that something was anime (3rd v Oro fight :P ) when 3rd had a flashback of Oro being catch redhanded while performing forbidden experiments with leaf citizens.

Even Oro stated that if Sarutobi was 10 years younger it wouldn't go the way it did...

[Abdula]

And something tells me that if the 3rd were younger, he wouldn't have had to resort to that soul stealing to beat Oro...he probably could have used some ridiculously monstrous jutsu


That is the ridiculously monstrous jutsu. If he was younger and even if he did know all the jutsus in the village that one jutsu was by far the strongest. It was what the fourth used to seal the Kyuubi and the strongest jutsu in the village so there wouldn't have been a more powerful jutsu he could have used. Like I said I think the only thing that would have changed if the third was younger would be that they would have both died in that battle instead of just the third.

[Yukimura]

Shiki Fuuin is probably the most powerful sealing jutsu in the villiage, but who's to say Oro would have even had a chance to summon his zombies and create the need for a sealing jutsu if The Third had been younger. We'll never know if there was some technique he'd become rusty at that he might have used had he been younger to take Oro out before he managed to perform the summon (like a Genjutsu).

The stated reason the Third gave for using the Shiki Fuujin was that he couldn't destroy the zombies without dealing with the attached souls. Either Shiki Fuujin was the only way he knew to get rid of the souls, or it was just the most prudent way to do it given the situation but in either case his need to use stemmed directly from the casting of Edo Tensei, which might have been preventable by a younger Sarutobi.

[rockmanj]

My point exactly...couldn't have said it better myself.

[Abdula]

Edo Tensei might have been preventable by a younger Sarutobi hah. It was already preventable he prevented Oro from bringing back the fourth easily enough and that was because he thought he would have been able to handle Oro and the other two hokages. He himself said that he stopped him from bringing back the fourth because he knew he wouldn't have been able to handle him.

So it had nothing to do with it not being preventable because it was. The problem was that he didn't realize just how strong Oro's jutsu was, he thought that simple techniques that would kill or destroy a normal human being would have been able to work on them, like using the explosive tags for example. He later realized that the only way to stop them was to effectively remove the souls from the bodies and then seal them so they couldn't reform. At that point there was nothing else he could do besides Shiki Fujin.

The point of that battle was that he had to fight his teachers so that wouldn't have changed and as I said even if he was younger the only way the outcome would have changed would be that they both would have died.

[darkshadow]

He prolly did realize it, cause he was never in shock, he just said, "hmm so i cant deal with them like this". It never hurts to try, instead of damning your former teachers to eternal battle in the shinigami stomach.
Also he never said he couldn't handle the fourth, he said: "I absolutely have to stop the 3rd one." which is obvious cause 3 on 1 was already really hard for him, 4 on 1 wouldve been devastating.
The coffin should prolly be soulless anyway, since his soul is supposed to be sealed in the shinigami stomach.

[rockmanj]

I really don't have an answer as to why he was able to stop one out of three coffins, except to say that maybe he wasn't able to react quickly enough. That part kind of didnt make sense to me...but i could see if his reflexes weren't high enough to stop the other two. Oh yea...i just remembered that too... There shouldn't be anyway that Oro should be able to summon the 4th, since he was the one who created and used Shiki Fujin...weird.

[SilentSnake]

Edo tensei was cast very fast by Oro and 3rd simply wasn't fast enough to prevent all of them.

The way I see it:

3rd sees Oro counting, One, two... 2 coffins appear, 3rd manages to stop the third one.
imho it was pretty fast for 3rd to be able to stop the 3rd coffin after 2 seconds of seeing an unknown jutsu and recognizing what it actually does...

[Abdula]

It wasn't an unknown jutsu. The Third immediately recognized the jutsu as soon as Oro used it and he knew what was in the coffins before they even opened. So it wasn't an unknown jutsu, it was a forbidden jutsu but the third already knew about it which is why he was able to stop Oro from summoning the fourth. Hell he even knew a third coffin was coming before Oro began summoning it and the technique is obviously pretty old since the hokages themselves knew about it.

I still believe the reason he stopped the third coffin was because he knew that the fourth was in there not because of numbers. He knew we wouldn't be able to stop the fourth but he thought he would have been able to handle the first and the second.

Maybe the coffin that was supposed to contain the fourth would have opened the gateway to hell.

[FullMetalAlchemist]

It wasn't an unknown jutsu. The Third immediately recognized the jutsu as soon as Oro used it and he knew what was in the coffins before they even opened. So it wasn't an unknown jutsu, it was a forbidden jutsu but the third already knew about it which is why he was able to stop Oro from summoning the fourth. Hell he even knew a third coffin was coming before Oro began summoning it and the technique is obviously pretty old since the hokages themselves knew about it.

I still believe the reason he stopped the third coffin was because he knew that the fourth was in there not because of numbers. He knew we wouldn't be able to stop the fourth but he thought he would have been able to handle the first and the second.

Maybe the coffin that was supposed to contain the fourth would have opened the gateway to hell.

I can't go with u on this one, if he knew the technique he would have know from the begining that the only way to stop them was by taking there souls. The coffins weren't the 1st,2nd, and 4th hokages coffins either so he wouldn't know what he was summoning. the coffins held the 3 sound ninja's bodies for the summoning. remember when the hokages died u saw 2 of the sound ninja's bodies. If it was there coffins wouldn't it hold the remains of the 1st/2nd also? technically what we saw was the forms of the 1st and 2nd while it was really the bodies of those sound ninja.

[Abdula]

Like I said he did know the technique while he may not of known all the specific details he did recognize the technique as did the first and second hokages. The fact that they knew the techniques suggests that its a very old technique and if it was then ofcourse the third knew about it because his knowledge is what he was known for.

IF he didn't know the technique already there is no way he would have been able to stop Oro from summoning the fourth if the technique was unfamiliar to him. The reason he won't have known how the destroy the first and the second would be because the technique is forbidden. Similar to when he used Shiki Fujin it was also a forbidden technique and he knew how to use it but he didn't actually know what would happen after he did it because he had never done it before. So I would say he knew Edo Tensei which is why he knew how to stop the coffin but he won't have known how to the destroy the people that were summoned because it was a forbidden technique that required sacrifices so he would never have used it.

[darkshadow]

*cough*minato used shiki fujin*cough*

[Abdula]

Yes I know Minato used it. The third already mentioned that the only reason he knew what would happen after he used the technique was because he was there when Minato used it and Minato had already described it to him but he never actually saw what was happening since only the victim and the user can see the Shinigami.

Just reread that part of the Manga or rewatch those episodes whichever you prefer.

[darkshadow]

I know what he fking said, i responded like that cause ofcourse he knew what was going to happen if he used it,
1. minato taught him and described the technique to him.
2. he held naruto after the damn sealing took place
3. he wasn't called the professor for nothing.

meh i need some sleep.

[rockmanj]

I still think its like they said...just a matter of age. I mean, in that battle, the old man used a shitload of chakra for anyone (high level elemental jutstu, summoning, and wielding that big ass pole)...and that was with everyone acknowledging that his chakra stamina was significantly lower than it previously was. Who know what kind of apocalyptic super destructive justsus he could have used when he was younger. Like, it was shown, KBJ and shiki fujin were most likely used as a last resort, because he didn't really have enough energy and wherewithall to keep going.

[SilentSnake]

How would 3rd knew Edo Tensei if it was obviously some crazy experiment of Oro's?

Sarutobi had no idea what's going on with hokaes and had to use his exceptional intelligence to get a hold of situation.

He did not know how to stop them at first and was obviously checking the ground with exploding tags with hope that it would be enough.

And, as hokage and anime character, he could sense what's inside frickin' coffins coming from the ground :D

edit: he could cancel the technique in a similar fashion noob Sakura did with genjutsu used at the chuunin's exam, just on a way other lvl.

[Abdula]

How would 3rd knew Edo Tensei if it was obviously some crazy experiment of Oro's?


How did you come to that conclusion. You would take ESP over knowledge.
Watch This (http://youtube.com/watch?v=a2UMcROpO2U)

[SilentSnake]

How did you come to that conclusion. You would take ESP over knowledge.
Watch This (http://youtube.com/watch?v=a2UMcROpO2U)

Yup, it looks like he knows sth about it after all.

1st and 2nd knew about it as well, so Edo Tensei is just another leaf forbidden jutsu.

Makes you wonder where did all forbidden leaf jutsu came from ?

[rockmanj]

Yea, it just looked like he couldn't react quickly enough...looks like he knew he was screwed.

[Abdula]

Exactly.

Who knows how all these forbidden jutsu came about. I suppose most are like Chiyo's and just resulted from researching new jutsus or some could be like Naruto's rasengan and just be a result of the user creating a jutsu too powerful for him to handle. I suppose Edo Tensei was a result of the first method but I have no idea how something like Shiki Fujin could come about. How would one come into contact with a shinigami anyway?

[darkshadow]

how does one come in contact with a giant slug, or a monkey king.

[Abdula]

Yeah well that is more plausible than a shinigami. I can only Imagine what the first person to meet Gamabunta felt like.

Was it ever mentioned where the hell people find these weird creatures to summon. They said Jiraiya stumbled upon the toads but that doesn't explain anything.

[The Heretic Azazel]

Another dimension I think. A time-space thing.

[itadakimasu]

How did you come to that conclusion. You would take ESP over knowledge.
Watch This (http://youtube.com/watch?v=a2UMcROpO2U)

This is completely unrelated to this chapter... but since abdula posted that youtube link i went to watch it...

I had no idea that oro intended to summon another body during his battle w\ sandaime... although idk how it would be the fourth hokage because i dont think his body was left after the sealing of the kyuubi.

[Yukimura]

Those weren't the original bodies of the Hokage's they (at least the two he successfully summoned) were the bodies of 2 of the sound ninja from the second test of the chuunin exam, Kin and arm blaster guy. The jutsu caused dust to gather around the sacrificed bodies and take on the form and appearance of the deceased. It can likely be assumed that the third body would have been Dosu's (the guy with the arm gauntlet and long sleeves). And the Third's body was left after he sealed Oro's arms so I'm not sure why you think the Fourth's remains shouldn't sitting in a coffin or urn or something as well.

[Abdula]

Brings up another interesting question. Just how does one summon someone's soul. I mean doesn't summoning usually entail coming into contact with whatever creature and then making a contract that would allow you to summon said creature. So I get that Oro had to perform a lot of preparations including finding sacrifices and all but how the hell do you know who's soul your summoning and how do you contact then/it.


This is completely unrelated to this chapter.

Yeah we know but there is nothing else to do.

[rockmanj]

Hmm...maybe there are other kinds of summons, as we've seen people summoning before. I would guess there are different classes of summons. So, soul summoning would most likely be a forbidden type, since its an egregious affront to the dead.

[Fighter Fei]

I think Itachi is dead, or at the very least heavily wounded. Though the possibility that this is all Genjutsu still exists, Genjutsu like that just doesn't seem likely (and if it is, I'll actually be kind of disapointed). I think his abrupt end is great, and if he really is fatally wounded, it revives my interest in the manga just because of how unexpected it is. All that tension he spent building up like that to be used in such a way is an anti-climactic conflict but not everything needs to be so overly dramaticized. The shock-value of it would be on par with a certain very popular Final Fantasy VII spoiler.

Just the way I feel about it though -shrugs-

[Yukimura]

Does anyone know if we should expect a chapter this week or does the break continue to next week?

[Abdula]

We should get one this week.

[Yukimura]

Believing the opposite of what Abdula says seems to work out well. I have discovered from the Shounen Jump raw providers that there won't be a Shounen Jump issue till the 18th. So I guess it's another week of arguing over crap again.

We've sure covered a lot in this thread: who's the strongest ninja (or is there one), who was the youngest Hokage, who's in who's genjutsu, etc. Now I guess we're on summoning.

Seeing as anything corporeal can apparently be summoned (weapons, logs, people, animals, talking animals, giant talking animals) I would imagine there is some ninja mechanism that allows one to access other dimensions for universally available storage and retrieval. Since the souls of the dead can be summoned it would follow that they must exist in some alternate dimension. So if a ninja knows the right dimension to look for and how to pull things out of other dimensions and into ours, then the only difference I see between a kunai and a soul is souls probably have a natural tendency to move to the soul dimension if not anchored to something that exists in the physical dimension.

[Abdula]

Yeah it does seem to work well. But I said "should" because it was just my unsubstantiated guess.

Yes we've seen that any number of things can be summoned from other dimensions, we've even seen things like the flames from Itachi's Amaterasu being sealed. Then there are things like the fourth's jutsu or the jutsu Jiraiya used to get into the rain village that suggest that interdimensional travel is rather common but they have never been explained.

Yes logic would suggest that there is something that anchors the souls of the hokages to the physical world but other than their bodies what could that be. Oro didn't use their actually bodies for the jutsu he used the bodies of sacrifices so I doubt that would be it.

Then even if it is explained what anchors them to the physical world, how would Oro know about or have access to it. The first hokage for example may have been dead long before Oro was even born or sometime soon after so there is no way Oro should know of anything that connects him to this world.

Unless Oro himself traveled to the dimension in which they exist which I may be inclined to believe since he certainly seems to know alot about dimensional travel and must have thoroughly researched it. Also the dude is a creepy bastard that by no stretch of the imagination could ever be considered human and since due to his immortality jutsu his soul essentially has free roam it’s a plausible explanation. However Edo Tensei as I've said before doesn't appear to be an Oro original therefore someone else must have created if so then How.?

[Yukimura]

If this Rikudou guy really did introduce ninjutsu to the world then it's likely he was the first to muck around with the dimensions in addition to everything else. That's not to say he created the technique, but something like bringing the dead back to life seems like something people would try to research very soon after being given a new and powerful tool like ninjutsu. Before most things gain a military use they have generally been known to scientists for a while. I think it's quite possible the first ninja we're more scientists than warriors but as the power and scope of ninjutsu was made more and more available it's military applications became more and more obvious and a war was started, leading to the formation of the villiages and organized ninja training etc.