Did making the Naruto chars older hurt the series?

[Animeniax]

We're used to Naruto's childish antics and it was part of what made the show enjoyable when he was a kid. Now that he's grown up, it's annoying when he acts like a dumb kid. I wonder if the time-skip was a mistake. It would be like Bart and Lisa growing up on the Simpsons. What do you all think?

[Kraco]

I don't honestly know what to think. I fully expected Naruto's character to change somewhat. However, it doesn't really seem like anybody in the series changed at all (except outwardly).

I guess I just have to accept it. The jump seems to have happened purely for plot reasons, not for developing the characters.

[darkmetal505]

As far as I can tell, Naruto is still the number one noisy ninja at surprising people.

[Pessu]

I can only find it a positive change of things. I mean I hate kids. I really, really hate them. And then you put someone like Naruto into that equation. Its not a pretty sight trust me. Now? He's a bit more grown and less annoying so I cant find that negative.

[Yukimura]

I didn't expect see that much of a difference between the 12 and 15 year old versions of the characters anyway. All the kids I've known as they grew from 12 to 15 didn't change all that much in maturity level as the time passed. They improved their ability to think and process information but they still hadn't learned when, where, or how to apply their improving faculties effectively, basically they didn't learn self-discipline. It's not really a surprise that grown up Naruto, while seemingly a bit more capable of learning new advanced techniques, is still a child when it comes to decision making, planning, and general behavior. He got older, he didn't 'grow up'.

[Abdula]

I didn't expect see that much of a difference between the 12 and 15 year old versions of the characters anyway. All the kids I've known as they grew from 12 to 15 didn't change all that much in maturity level as the time passed. They improved their ability to think and process information but they still hadn't learned when, where, or how to apply their improving faculties effectively, basically they didn't learn self-discipline. It's not really a surprise that grown up Naruto, while seemingly a bit more capable of learning new advanced techniques, is still a child when it comes to decision making, planning, and general behavior. He got older, he didn't 'grow up'.

I have to agree with Yukimura 'The Mind Reader', kids don't change much between the ages of 12 and 15, but it was an improvement because I had a major problem with prepubescent ninja it just doesn't sound or look right.

[Idealistic]

It didn't hurt the series, the animation did, the filler, and the useless dialogue, all hurt the series.

[Assertn]

How can there ever be a conclusion to the series if they never grow up?
Did you expect Naruto to become Hokage at age 13?

[Animeniax]

How will Dexter ever rule the world if he never grows up? How will Lisa Simpson become president if she never grows up? Fact of the matter is, Growing Pains stopped being popular once the kids all grew up.

[DDBen]

I think the change certainly helps overall. The thing is you can't really age characters without a time skip except maybe having them get a new piece of clothing. Its just to hard to have them gradually grow. Naruto went 220 episodes with very minor changes to the characters despite us seeing them young and being the main ninja's were in there growing years its not like say one piece where 20-30 people don't really look that different. I would be happy if we had some more character aging if Naruto goes long enough ro see the ninja's into their 20's or so.

[Assertn]

How will Dexter ever rule the world if he never grows up? How will Lisa Simpson become president if she never grows up? Fact of the matter is, Growing Pains stopped being popular once the kids all grew up.
I fail to see how a story-telling anime series can be compared to comedy cartoons and sitcoms.

[Animeniax]

All those shows were telling a story as much as Naruto, just not in a linear fashion. Proper chronology was observed as well, such as when Maude Flanders dies, the episodes after did not include her.

I'd have preferred they told the entire story of Naruto and the Leaf Village when they were a certain age. Or if they had to make them grow up, then either make them act their age, or introduce new young goofball characters to keep the humor. I guess they sort of did that with Konohamaru, but it was a poor substitute for 12 yr old Naruto's antics.

[DarthEnderX]

I can only find it a positive change of things. I mean I hate kids. I really, really hate them. And then you put someone like Naruto into that equation. Its not a pretty sight trust me. Now? He's a bit more grown and less annoying so I cant find that negative.I'm with this guy.

I never felt that Naruto's childing antics were what made the show enjoyable. In fact, its one of the show's biggest detriments.


Comparing Naruto to Simpsons is ridiculous also. For every "Maude Flanders" example of continuity, there's a half dozen times where they ignore events of previous episodes.

[Assertn]

All those shows were telling a story as much as Naruto, just not in a linear fashion. Proper chronology was observed as well, such as when Maude Flanders dies, the episodes after did not include her.
You do realize Maude died because her voice actor wanted to get off the show, right? They kind of HAD to do something with detrimental changes. However despite over a dozen seasons, I can probably list the number of times something resembling a plot transition occured in the Simpsons on one hand.

Changes in your examples only occured for the following reasons: Actors physically getting older, people leaving or entering contracts, and "jumping shark" techniques to dramatically re-vamp an otherwise stale show.

The vast majority of anime strive for plot progression though, this is why a story in an anime series usually spans over the course of arcs, or the entire series as a whole, as opposed to just isolated 25 minute segments.

These are very fundamental differences. If you can't comprehend this, then good luck with your ambition to understanding japanese art and culture.

[Animeniax]

I'm with this guy.

I never felt that Naruto's childing antics were what made the show enjoyable. In fact, its one of the show's biggest detriments.
His childish bravado and fearlessness made the character likable to me. I remember how petulant and wild he was, smiling and giving the thumbs when everyone else was feeling unsure. Like in the Chuunin exams, when faced with all of their competition, he claims he'll beat them all to become hokage. Now that he's older, it's ridiculous when he makes these brazen claims, or when he screams at an enemy that he won't forgive him.\

Same with Sasuke. Before he was a tormented kid who just wanted his mommy and daddy. Now he's an emo teen who wears mascara. And look at Konohamaru. He used to be adorable, now he's just an obnoxious Naruto-clone.

[Abdula]

That wasn't because Naruto was childish that just because he is stupid, he is the same way now, telling Kakashi that he could take out Deidara all by himself is incredibly naïve and that doesn't change with age only experience. You would think that he has gone through enough traumatic experiences to actually know his limitations but obviously he hasn't thought he seems to be learning slowly.

I don't know what your problem with Sasuke is and Konohamaru is definitely going to be Naruto's replacement but he is growing up much faster and seems to have better instincts and he can definitely read people better than Naruto can, I would expect him to turn out a lot like Asuma.

[masamuneehs]

i think the time skip might have been partly a ploy to jump to this important time period and to also give some characters some much needed ability (Sakura comes to mind).

but, mentally, I haven't seen much progress with the characters personalities and minds. The amount of sheer force tactics going on is still absurd. "I'll just use my ultimate attack!"

But i don't think it's hurt the series. It's nice for characters like Sakura, who was essentially useless when she was younger. I mean, sure, learning high level medical jutsu in two and a half years' time... Can you imagine if med school was that quick? We haven't really seen much new from anyone outside of Kakashi, so...

edit - I can't believe it, but I agree with DDBen and Idealistic about what has really hurt this show.

[Abdula]

I think you're right, the plot definitely hit a wall at the end of the Sasuke Retrieval Arc and the time skip was a great way to avoid having to go through the usual menial character development arcs that usually never truly explain how characters become exponentially stronger in such a short period of time.

[Kraco]

but, mentally, I haven't seen much progress with the characters personalities and minds. The amount of sheer force tactics going on is still absurd. "I'll just use my ultimate attack!"

There's not actually anything absurd about that. The simpler the plan (attack) the better the chances of nothing going wrong, provided you have enough power for a direct attack - thus the ultimate attack. The old way of starting slowly is the absurd way. In reality you attack with enough force to get the job done as swiftly as possible, not by trying progressively stronger and stronger attacks until one party runs out of a stronger attack and loses. That's nothing but madness like 300 taught us.

Still, even if I said that, I wouldn't mind more complicated fights... >_>

[Abdula]

Starting out a battle slowly and using progressively stronger attacks is a good way to feel out what "level" your opponent is at and works well in Naruto and its a good way to win a battle without having to show your trump card, its give and take and requires a lot of patience like a chess game. On the other hand once you already know what level your opponent is at and you know their abilities you can easily defeat them by using a move you know they will not be able to defend but going on an all out attack from the very begining especially against an unfamiliar opponent is bad strategy and often gives them unwarranted opportunities.

[iMUSTbeTHEdevil]

No, not it did not

[Yukimura]

Feeling out your opponent is not as useful when your attacks are massive but one dimensional. If the enemy can block your giant death ball you're pretty much dead anyway so it's better to just try it. If they block it, you can't win and you run. If they just avoid it, then you know that all you have to do is find a way to catch them off guard and hit them with it. The longer you keep trying little stuff the longer you leave yourself open for whatever they might potentially do to you.

[Abdula]

Not necessarily but I see your point, I just wouldn't approach a battle that way.

[Assertn]

but, mentally, I haven't seen much progress with the characters personalities and minds. The amount of sheer force tactics going on is still absurd. "I'll just use my ultimate attack!"
I agree with Kraco.

The lack of "i'll just use my ultimate attack!" is why battles like Sasori's end up taking 6 episodes instead of 1 or 2.

[redcat]

they should have another time skip so i wont feel so bad about beating off to hentai based on the girls from the series.

[Animeniax]

These are very fundamental differences. If you can't comprehend this, then good luck with your ambition to understanding japanese art and culture.
That's a bit of a stretch you got there.

I could tolerate and even identify with young Naruto's antics. Seeing the older Naruto still acting dumb is unbearable. It's like any teenager who still acts like a kid, it's not something we tolerate in society.

Let's consider Bleach. Will they ever make it out of high school? I doubt it. Young adult Ichigo, Chado, Orihime, and Ishida, balancing their super hero responsibilities while trying to work day jobs and relationships? This isn't the best comparison either, since these 4 are all mature beyond their years, so they wouldn't act much different as older people.

[Kraco]

Young adult Ichigo, Chado, Orihime, and Ishida, balancing their super hero responsibilities while trying to work day jobs and relationships?

You forget the possibility of a university which would likely grant even more freedom (to roam around saving the world) than high schools, at least theoretically, though I suppose they would need to do their homework more dutifully.

[Animeniax]

You forget the possibility of a university which would likely grant even more freedom (to roam around saving the world) than high schools, at least theoretically, though I suppose they would need to do their homework more dutifully.I think they're all 17, aren't they? And they never seemed like the most studious pupils, since they skip class so often. Besides, now that they know what's out there besides the normal, how could they go back to studies and day jobs?

[DarthEnderX]

If they just avoid it, then you know that all you have to do is find a way to catch them off guard and hit them with it. Wouldn't using the attack directly just make it that much harder to catch them off guard with it?

If you knew you only had one straightforward, powerful attack, wouldn't it make more sense to try and catch them off guard to begin with, BEFORE they've seen your attack?

It's like in Sasuke vs. Gaara. Sasuke has Chidori, but he knew he'd never land the thing, so he waits until he's sure his opponent won't dodge it before he attacks.

If he'd just started the battle using Chidori, Gaara would have simply avoided it, and it would have been wasted.

[Animeniax]

If he'd just started the battle using Chidori, Gaara would have simply avoided it, and it would have been wasted.That only applies with a technique like Chidori when used by an (relatively) unskilled fighter like Sasuke. Rasengan in the hands of someone like Naruto with his huge reserve of chakra could be used repeatedly to start, continue, and finish a fight.

[Abdula]

But that is just his normal Rasengan, I don't think anyone considers that to be an ultimate attack. Most ninja whether they have a large reserve of chakra or not their most powerful attacks usually consumes most of it, so if you miss not only has your opponent already seen your trump card but you have a severely depleted amount of chakra to continue fighting with.

[Animeniax]

Rasengan was watered down during fillers, but it is an ultimate attack. Only 3 people know how to use it, including Jiraiya, the 4th hokage, and Naruto.

I haven't been watching Naruto lately, but the super Rasengan definitely could be considered an ultimate attack. I imagine from your statement that there is some limitation to how many times Naruto can use it, even with the 9-tail's huge amount of chakra at his disposal?

[Kraco]

When he was learning the technique, he must have formed it dozens of times a day. So, it's somewhat safe to say the limit of how many he can make per day is more than he could possibly ever need to use in a single day.

[Abdula]

This is getting a bit spoilerish here... You're plenty vague about some of it, but don't reference events in the manga at all, if you can help it. Besides, your argument is moot being based on unrevealed manga facts, since the people you're debating with straight up don't have that info yet.

Verbal warning, just try not to tie in manga points in your arguments.


HOLY HELL. I was completely ignorant of this, guess that explains that. I should really pay more attention.

[Kraco]

For once I'd be happy if Naruto remained stubborn and didn't listen to those words. He should instead use the Kyuubi chakra as much as possible and perfect red rasengans.

Anyway, three per day sounds like a totally artificial limitation put in place simply because Sasuke (or Kakashi) can't use chidori too many times and thus it would be "unfair" if Naruto could use rasengan as much as he needed. What comes to the practice rasengans and their numbers, it doesn't really make sense. He was surely wasting a lot of energy with them, instead of them not, supposedly, being full power. It's not a raw force technique like chidori so the better he can do it, the less energy it should take for the same effect. It makes zero sense the poorly formed ones spent less energy and still shattered places.

[Assertn]

That's a bit of a stretch you got there.
Haha, well, whatever.

It felt pretty obvious to me back in the sasuke chase arc that the series really needed a time jump in order to really progress the story-line, given the fact that there were many distinguished limitations the characters had with their current levels of skill. Not to mention all the foreshadowing of Naruto, Sakura, and Sasuke having their training sessions with their respective sannin.

Bleach, however, shows no indications of a necessity to time jump. Of course, I am probably way too far behind in that series to see any hints suggesting otherwise.

[DarthEnderX]

Bleach doesn't need time skips because of the ridiculous progression rate the writer has given to Ichigo. Allowing him to learn things that takes others hundreds of years in 3 days. It's kinda stupid, and plot-devicey, but it definitely removes the need for time skips.


I actually agree with Ani about Naruto being able to throw Rasengan's around at will. Jirayai said that Rasengan is far more efficient in chakra usage than chidori. Combine that with the fact that Naruto has so much more chakra to begin with, and Naruto can pretty much throw them around whenever he can get the breathing room to form one.

[Abdula]

Okay yes, he can throw rasengans around at will no one is disputing that. Jiraiya can do it to, but the normal rasengan isn't much of a jutsu, not only is it easy to avoid but it doesn't do much damage so it won't mean anything against Akatsuki. The only person I even remember Naruto hitting with the normal rasengan and this is non-filler ofcourse is Kabuto and he took the hit on purpose so shut the hell up already. There is a reason Jiraiya doesn't use it in battle because its useless.

[Yukimura]

Why would Kabuto have taken that hit on purpose? Not to mention the fact that Naruto had grabbed his hand to keep him from escaping since that is a fairly weak point. Also Natuto hit the Itachi clone with a Rasengan albeit a larger than average normal one and it ended that clones life rather abruptly.

Anyway, you're certainly right about the Rasengan being relatively easy to avoid, however I can't see how you think it doesn't do much damage. If the demonstration of the Rasengan on the tree, Tsunade making Naruto drop an incomplete one into the ground outside the teahouse, and the destruction of the water tower on top of Konoha hospital are accurate depictions of the Rasengan's destructive power then a human body shouldn't survive being hit with one. Last I checked trees, rock, and metal were all harder than human flesh. Kabuto's excuse for surviving was his Deus Ex Machina cell regrowth ability which we must assume can regrow cells at nearly the rate that they'd be destroyed by the Rasengan tearing through a body.

[Abdula]

What Naruto used was the Odama Rasengan different technique. Kabuto took the hit because he knew he could regenerate and so he could have the opportunity to sever the flow of chakra around Naruto's heart or something like that to kill him, something he said was irreparable so Tsunade nor the Kyuubi could heal him but all she had to do was shed a tear and wow he was magically healed.



Last I checked trees, rock, and metal were all harder than human flesh.

You should check again because I can give you numerous examples of people sent flying through rocks and trees and even walls without much consequence. The rules of what can and can't be done in Naruto were never fully established and even those that were are subject to change at will.

[Assertn]

You should check again because I can give you numerous examples of people sent flying through rocks and trees and even walls without much consequence. The rules of what can and can't be done in Naruto were never fully established and even those that were are subject to change at will.
Can you list them? I can't actually think of a time when any characters were physically sent through rocks and trees without much consequence.

Well, the only exceptions (if you can even call them that) that I can think of, are chouji's pill-powered meat tank through the rock wall and Kimimaro's bone spear through Gaara's hardened sand.

[Abdula]

Sure I could list them but the fact that I didn't means I have no intention to. There are a few I can remember but actually looking for references in the manga and or anime is not something I intend to do right now, maybe later.

[Yukimura]

You are right Abdula, I forgot that Naruto characters bodies are, empirically speaking, harder than stone. Because of the magically high resistance to physical damage possessed by seemingly all ninja the assertion that the Rasengan doesn't do much damage does have merit, but then again, Kabuto, even with both ninja toughness and his super healing, was incapacitated by the Rasengan (for all of the maybe 10 minutes that the Sannin fought).

Some Examples (My Job sure is boring some days):

Sandaime vs Shodaime & Nidaime:
Sandaime uses Katon: Karyuu Endan against both and they are completely engulfed in the flames, within the inferno they showed token signs that the flame bothered them and then Nidaime calmly cast a jutsu to counter the flames.

Shodaime runs at Sandainme, who shoots fire bullets at him. Said bullets are blocked by Shodaime's bare hands (or his magic aura/ AT field).

Naruto vs Kabuto:
Kabuto's body deeply deforms the rock behind him when he hits it after taking the fist Rasengan.

Sannin Battle:
Orochimaru: hit by multiple Super Strength Tsunade punches that can shatter stone walls, not particularly happy about it but not incapacitated by them either.

Chouji punches Jiroubu/Jidanbou/Fat Sound Four guy with all his strength, Jidanbou's body displaces the ground around him.

Naruto vs Sasuke:
Naruto Takes Either a Katon Gokakyuu no Jutsu or a Katon: Ryuuka no Jutsu right to the face and is fine afterwards.

Naruto+Kyuubi enhanced speed/strength vs Sasuke No Curse Seal:
Naruto throws Sasuke through into a wall hard enough to displace the stone in the wall

Naruto Creates a clone whip and slams Sasuke into a cliff, Sasuke's body displaces the cliff side.

Naruto then takes a point blank Katon: Ryuuka no Jutsu and is only momentarily stunned but suffers no apparent fire damage to his person or even his clothes.

Naruto is then thrown off a cliff at least 10 stories high and lands on his head with Sasuke's weight added to his own, the rock under his head is damaged but his head and neck maintain their positions perfectly.

Naruto in 1 tailed Kyuubi Mode vs Sasuke Curse Seal Level 1: Naruto punches Sasuke into a wall destroying a large section of the wall behind him.

[Abdula]

One of my favorites was during the Sasuke vs Naruto battle at the valley of end when Sasuke used that wire he always does to tie Naruto to a rock and the wire cut straight through the rock itself but Naruto's skin and clothes were completely immune to any damage.

Thats why I said the rules of Naruto are subject to change at will because Kishimoto changes the rules of his world whenever he deems it convenient.

[Kraco]

However, saying the rules are subject to change depending on how many squirrels Kishimoto counted in the park during his evening stroll also means rasengan could be extremely efficient as well if needed!

So, in the end it's plus minus zero. But somehow I tend to think we are more likely to see people avoiding the effect than just absorbing it.

[Assertn]

Well ok, but in all honesty....

Sandaime's flame was blocked by Nidaime's water shield. Didn't engulf them.
Anything dealing with the 1st and 2nd Hokages should not count anyway, because it was quite clearly revealed that in the zombie form they were physically immortal.

Pretty much every scene mentioned in reference to Naruto vs Sasuke was fabricated by the Anime studio, and therefore was in no way part of Kishimoto's vision.

Chouji's punch on Jiroubou kills Jiroubou.

I'll give you the Kabuto and Oro scenes, however I think they've justified those characters well enough to make it at least plausible.

[Abdula]

Choji's punch did kill Jiroubou but it should have made a huge hole in his chest rather than leave a crater in the ground.

[Yukimura]

If we're going to keep bringing the manga up and ignoring anything from the anime that wasn't in or conflicts with the the manga why don't we just move this all over to the manga thread?

In the anime (which we're supposed to be talking about) the flames do engulf the zombie-kage's but don't seem to do anything to them, then a few seconds later, while surrounded by flames Nidaime does the Water Wall technique and blocks further flames from reaching them. But as you mentioned, they were zombies, so it doesn't really matter that they couldn't be harmed by them.

In the anime (which we're supposed to be talking about) bodies often slam through solid rock without taking significant or incapacitating damage themselves, these are facts of the anime regardless of how things played out in the manga.

[RyougaZell]

More than ignoring the anime-only events... I think Assertn was trying to say that such examples are not Kishimoto's faults, like Abdula is pointing at.

[Abdula]

I never said anything was Kishimoto's fault, I was just saying its creative freedom but whether you like it or not and whether it is in the anime or not it is still Kishimoto's creation. Most of those things did occur in the manga as well, including the entire Sasuke Retrieval arc.

[Animeniax]

The first time we saw Jiraiya use rasengan on that petty criminal in town, the guy didn't die or seem that bad off, but probably because it was meant to be a comical situation.

[Abdula]

Yeah, the normal Rasengan is pretty lame. I always wanted to know why only JIraiya, The Fourth and Naruto could use the tecnique because that has never been explained to my satisfaction. Creating a large amount of chakra and compressing it into a self sustaining ball of energy can't possibly be more difficult that generating fire or lightning not to mention genjutsu. I mean it can't possibly be that difficult if Naruto can do it, I always thought it had something to do with the amount of chakra but then it was stated that the Rasengan uses less chakra when compared to Chidori which wasn't surprising but only further confused me as to why other people can't use Rasengan.


-Off topic, I would love to meet the craven vermin who choose to hide behind the anonymity of this forum's rep system.

[XanBcoo]

Coming a bit late into the argument here, but:


I actually agree with Ani about Naruto being able to throw Rasengan's around at will.
Does anyone else think that Projectile Rasengans would be a pretty awesome development?

I mean, if we can't rely on Kishimoto to think up anything besides more powerful versions of old techinques, then that's definitely something I'd love to see. Naruto chucking a Rasengan from each hand.


I mean it can't possibly be that difficult if Naruto can do it, I always thought it had something to do with the amount of chakra but then it was stated that the Rasengan uses less chakra when compared to Chidori which wasn't surprising but only further confused me as to why other people can't use Rasengan.
It's all about Chakra control. Creating jutsu like the Gokakyu no Jutsu are relatively more easy, I assume, because they use the hand seals as a medium. Kind of like simply chanting to cast a spell. The Rasengan just requires a lot more of the user. I'm surprised Neji hasn't taken the time to learn it. It should be pretty easy for a guy like him.

[Abdula]

But Naruto was the worst at chakra control and he still is so that one doesn't make sense either.

[Yukimura]

@Animaniax: The rasengan seems to be a pretty flexible skill since the user controls the amount of chakra comprising it as well as the amount of spin. If you make one that's not that strong and not spinning too rapidly then it's not going to do as much damage as if you fill it with as much power as possible and make it spin like mad.

@Abdula: Naruto is the underdog hero so they make it out that h's terribleat everything when in reality he's just not applying himself to his full potential. Besides nearly ALL of Naruto's training has revolved around chakra control of some form. When you only focus on one thing eventually you'll get good at it.

As to the difficulty I believe Jiraiya mentioned that it was an A rank technique because of the difficulty of the component steps. Getting your chakra into your hand is pretty straight forward, but getting it to come out of your actual body and then making it spin doesn't seem like something that would be so easy. And then once you can get some out and spinning you have to be able to handle pumping out enough to shatter a rubber ball. The only other time we've seen raw chakra do anything close is Neji's Kaiten. Then the third step requires intense concentration and to contain and control all the power and rotation and that doesn't seem like something just anyone could do without intense focus and training on just controlling one's chakra (Naruto who only trains for chakra control has to create a whole separate consciousness to manage it). Of all the ninja we've seen the only one who's displayed a high level of of direct chakra control is Neji so I would expect him to have little trouble learning it but none of the others seem good enough with direct chakra control to pull it off.

Also the Rasengan doesn't utilize hand seals, I've always viewed hand seals as a sort of short cut for the mental effort needed to take chakra and do stuff with it. When Sasuke learned the Fireball Technique he was able to turn his chakra into fire with seemingly no experience with fire chakra just by directing chakra to his chest and performing the seals. It must still take some effort but I think the seals are meant to do a good portion of the work in making a jutsu do what it's supposed to, be it turn chakra into fire or lightning or a shadow. The fact that the Rasengan is as potent as it is but has to be fully controlled by the users mind instead of seals is another thing that makes it more advanced.

[XanBcoo]

But Naruto was the worst at chakra control and he still is so that one doesn't make sense either.
Naruto is the main character. He can do anything by trying hard enough, it's as simple as that.

The Rasengan lies in precise Chakra control. That was clearly explained when he learned it.

[Abdula]

Neji is obviously really good at chakra but so was Sakura and most medical ninja including Tsunade, yet Tsunade herself said that only JIraiya and the Fourth could perform the jutsu when she met Naruto.

In terms of concentration it couldn't be more difficult than trying to control lightning as with the chidori, or genjutsu which requires the user to not only have complete control over their own chakra but their opponents as well..

Yeah, I know the handseals were a shortcut but I seem to remember both Kakashi and Sasuke using the chidori without forming seals.


Naruto is the main character. He can do anything by trying hard enough, it's as simple as that.


I suppose we could just all go with that and forget this whole discussion but where is the fun in that. Projectile Rasengans will never happen that goes against the entire principal of the rasengan and the need for direct contact. Besides if you did that then Naruto really wouldn’t have to do anything now would he.

[XanBcoo]

Neji is obviously really good at chakra but so was Sakura and most medical ninja including Tsunade, yet Tsunade herself said that only JIraiya and the Fourth could perform the jutsu when she met Naruto.
First, I think in that context she meant "Jiraiya and the Fourth are currently the only ninja who have used that technique". She didn't say that she couldn't, but rather implied that she didn't. I think it's logical to assume that if she tried hard enough, she definitely could use it to some extent. Maybe she just doesn't want to. It's not her style. There's nothing about Tsunade that tells us she can't use her Chakra to near perfection.


In terms of concentration it couldn't be more difficult than trying to control lightning as with the chidori, or genjutsu which requires the user to not only have complete control over their own chakra but their opponents as well...
It's not lightening. Kakashi described Chidori as "body activation". Sasuke just forces a shit ton of Chakra into his arm and lets it burn haphazardly. The Rasengan is "Chidori Plus" because it directs the Chakra into a spiral-ball and compacts it without using handseals.

As an aside, I was really annoyed when I found out that Sakura and Tsunade's super strength were merely Chakra concentration. Basically a weakened form of Chidori, minus the Chakra burning. But I guess that tells us that there are obviously different flavors of "chakra control".


Yeah, I know the handseals were a shortcut but I seem to remember both Kakashi and Sasuke using the chidori without forming seals.
The Chidori uses handseals. Every time.

As for projectile Rasengans, I was only being half-serious. I'd love to see it, but you're right that it wouldn't work.

[Abdula]

I got the impression that she thought it was impossible not just improbable.

I thought that body activation, was so that he could simply generate the amount of chakra required for the technique. I don't think holding a ball of chakra is so difficult especially since once it is completed it is self sustaining, I can't imagine someone holding a ball of lightning which of course would constantly consume chakra not to mention how difficult it must be to turn chakra into lightning.

Anyway I'll leave this discussion alone until the anime progresses a bit.

[XanBcoo]

I don't think holding a ball of chakra is so difficult especially since once it is completed it is self sustaining, I can't imagine someone holding a ball of lightning which of course would constantly consume chakra not to mention how difficult it must be to turn chakra into lightning.
I'm going to ignore the fact that you ignored my earlier response explaining the difference between Chidori and Rasengan and just ask you: Why do you keep saying the Chidori "is" lightning?

It's not...:confused:.

[Abdula]

There is a reason why I said.
I'll leave this discussion alone until the anime progresses a bit.

After watching the episodes where Jiraiya "taught" Naruto the rasengan I don't consider the spiraling and condensing of chakra to be that difficult.

[XanBcoo]

Ok, I'll accept that. I haven't even been keeping up with the anime up to this point.

But even if the Chidori "is" lightning, it's no different than the Katon Gokakyu no Jutsu being fire or some ice jutsu being ice. The handseals take the users Chakra and magically expel them as an element or attack.

The Rasengan bypasses this step in favor of direct control over the Chakra. As for your opinions about the learning curve, that's just up to you. The fact is that everyone in the show at that point kept going on about "how impossible this jutsu is to learn desu." You just have to accept it at face value. Chakra control is tough shit to master.

[Abdula]

Chakra control is tough to master that is why no talent Naruto had to create a clone to use the rasengan. To my knowledge the way the technique works is that the original Naruto just releases a large amount of chakra and the clone does the chakra control including the spiraling and compacting of the chakra using its hands. By that logic anyone one who has enough chakra which would include Sasuke since it was stated that chidori uses more chakra than rasengan and knows shadow clones, which most chuunin and all jounin know should be able to use rasengan.



But even if the Chidori "is" lightning, it's no different than the Katon Gokakyu no Jutsu being fire or some ice jutsu being ice. The handseals take the users Chakra and magically expel them as an element or attack.


This I will have to address later.

[XanBcoo]

By that logic anyone one who has enough chakra which would include Sasuke since it was stated that chidori uses more chakra than rasengan and knows shadow clones, which most chuunin and all jounin know should be able to use rasengan.
I'm gonna agree that more Ninja out there should be capable of using the Rasengan, but chalk it up to Naruto's Chakra pool as the reason why only he uses it so predominantly.

I was just sayin' Rasengan is obviously a completely unique Jutsu. It's "outside the box" thinking, and probably not many people know about it or would think to use their Chakra in that manner. I really don't know.

[Kraco]

Neji is obviously really good at chakra but so was Sakura and most medical ninja including Tsunade, yet Tsunade herself said that only JIraiya and the Fourth could perform the jutsu when she met Naruto.

Tsunade would never use it because she would never learn it. She's far too lazy to go through all the practice required. She's an excellent medical ninja but that's only because she's so interested in medical sciences and she wants to save lives (which is no wonder considering her history). However, if she was asked to learn something that has nothing to do with healing people and would be hard to master to boot, she would avoid it at all cost.

And Sakura doesn't seem to pay any more attention to battle jutsu than Tsunade does, and she's probably still too busy trying to master medical sciences even if she wanted to. So, she won't be learning rasengan (not that anybody would teach it to her - unless she seduced Jiraiya).

[Yukimura]

It comes down to whether one thinks the Rasengan is difficult to learn or not. Jiraiya and Tsunade seem to think it is, but they're only Legendary Ninjas, each with a lifetime of experience, and one having trained a Hokage, what could they possibly know about rating the difficulty of jutsu...

Abdula what is it that makes you think spinning and compressing chakra isn't hard (with no mention of containing or maintaining it) after seeing only one person demonstrate the ability and hearing about only one other who could?

And if you're reason is simply "because Naruto could do it" you should remember that the two ninjutsu Naruto most commonly uses were both considered Jounin level techniques before he was even born.

[Assertn]

If we're going to keep bringing the manga up and ignoring anything from the anime that wasn't in or conflicts with the the manga why don't we just move this all over to the manga thread?
If the point of this discussion is to analyze Kishimoto's development of the characters and attacks within the world that Naruto is set in then, yes, we should just discuss it in a manga thread, because half of this discussion has nothing to do with Kishimoto.

Because the rasengan I remember from Kishimoto's vision definitely deserves more credit.

Edit: Also...there have been far too many rasengan vs chidori threads to discuss the pros and cons of rasengan. But the simple, most critical point is that Rasengan is an assassin-type jutsu that requires minimal chakra and no hand seals, making it the most ideal type of short-ranged attack. The chidori on the other hand, is not too sophisticated, uses up about 1/3 of Sasuke's chakra, and (supposedly) requires fast taijutsu to execute.

[Abdula]

@Yukimura: I don't think spinning and compressing chakra is easy, I would imagine that its incredibly difficult I was just saying that once that is done and the outer shell to contain it is completed the jutsu is self sustaining so there is no need to maintain anything as there is with chidori.

Anyway, this discussion really is going nowhere fast and I don't think we will ever get a definite answer and since I'm a sworn Naruto hater I don't think I will ever be convinced that Naruto deserves so much credit just for being able to do two jounin lever techniques especially considering that his repertoire only has three jutsu total. Well I suppose that if you can only use 3 jutsus they must really be way more powerful than all the others just to give you a fighting chance but I just don't think Shadow clones and summonings are all that special.

I think the simplest way to end this would be to say that although there are definitely other ninjas out there capable of performing the Rasengan they were never taught it, and there was never any need for them to learn it because they all have an abundance of other jutsus at their disposable and Naruto doesn't.


Sakura doesn't seem to pay any more attention to battle jutsu than Tsunade does, and she's probably still too busy trying to master medical sciences even if she wanted to. So, she won't be learning rasengan (not that anybody would teach it to her - unless she seduced Jiraiya).

lol'd at the thought of Sakura seducing someone but she could definitely manage Jiraiya, all she has to do is smile.

Since you brought her up. What is up with the constant mentioning of Sakura being a genjutsu type yet she hasn't used any genjutsu ever and it doesn't if look like she is trying to learn any. I mean you would think with all the character development that is going on now and every ninja and their momma pulling out some new jutsu that Kishi would have let her learn genjutsu during the time skip. That was a missed opportunity in my opinion, all she is now is a Tsunade clone, but he never cared about Sakura anyway.

[RyougaZell]

Anyway, this discussion really is going nowhere fast and I don't think we will ever get a definite answer and since I'm a sworn Naruto hater I don't think I will ever be convinced that Naruto deserves so much credit just for being able to do two jounin lever techniques especially considering that his repertoire only has three jutsu total. Well I suppose that if you can only use 3 jutsus they must really be way more powerful than all the others just to give you a fighting chance but I just don't think Shadow clones and summonings are all that special.
.

It always marvels me when someone in this forums claims to hate with passion a character, especially the main character who is on screen 90% of the time.

Tell... how can you stand watching a series about a character you obviously dislike? It it were me I would be watching another series instead...

This is not an attack... its just... I am curious. Honestly.

[Abdula]

I didn't think it was an attack, I don't hate Naruto as passionately as you think I do. I stick to the manga, he is not so much of an annoyance there. Manga is my thing but my girlfriend is an adamant anime fan so I only watch it when she forces me to which is once a week. Naruto isn't that bad compared to the other stuff I was subjected to, Demon eyes Kyo for example.

[Kraco]

Since you brought her up. What is up with the constant mentioning of Sakura being a genjutsu type yet she hasn't used any genjutsu ever and it doesn't if look like she is trying to learn any. I mean you would think with all the character development that is going on now and every ninja and their momma pulling out some new jutsu that Kishi would have let her learn genjutsu during the time skip. That was a missed opportunity in my opinion, all she is now is a Tsunade clone, but he never cared about Sakura anyway.

Come on. We saw during the Saving Private Gaara arc how excellent Sakura had already become in medical jutsu. There's no way she would even have had time to learn any high level jutsu outside of that field. What would she have used genjutsu for? As a cheap anesthetic?

She's referrec as a potentially good genjutsu user because she is resistant to it, herself, and can easily dispel it. So she supposedly has some natural talent.

[Abdula]

I mean you would think with all the character development that is going on now and every ninja and their momma pulling out some new jutsu that Kishi would have let her learn genjutsu during the time skip. That was a missed opportunity in my opinion, all she is now is a Tsunade clone, but he never cared about Sakura anyway.

I don't know if she would've have been able to learn genjutsu, I would think that since it is a time skip, time itself is irrelevant. Sakura has always been boasted as a genjutsu type not just being resistant to it Kakashi specifically said that she would only be able to surpass Tsunade because of her ability to use genjutsu, and since she is so highly talented I would think that it would've been easy for her. I don't really care about Sakura she served no purpose in the original anime and if it wasn't for that first arc in Shippuden I would say that she is still serves no purpose.

Medical ninja are only background characters anyway, their only purpose is to heal the injured and according to Tsunade she is not even suppose to engage the enemy. Not that being a medical ninja isn't a wonderful accomplish especially to be on that level at her age, but medical ninja are more or less just support ninja. Her presence will of course affect the outcome of any battle but as far as one on one combat goes Sakura isn't much of a threat, yet.

I'm unfairly comparing her to Naruto, Sasuke and Kakashi of course but that is her squad so those are the ninja she has to be able to keep pace with.

[Kraco]

You know things aren't going well anymore when you quote yourself and reply to that quote as if replying to somebody else's post...

[Abdula]

Actually the quote was a response to your post, but since you had obviously already read it I felt like I needed to elaborate.I don't really care about Sakura I just felt that she could have learnt genjutsu during the time skip since they were hinting at it from the very beginning and it would have been a nice way for her to distinguish herself from Tsunade.

[Animeniax]

I just felt that she could have learnt genjutsu during the time skip since they were hinting at it from the very beginning and it would have been a nice way for her to distinguish herself from Tsunade.
I don't think Kishimoto wants to distinguish her from Tsunade. The 3 members of team 7 are the second coming of the Sannin, so Sakura will be just like Tsunade. She'll start gambling and drinking heavily once she turns adult. Naruto is a clone of Jiraiya, so he'll become a perv sooner or later, and Sasuke is Orochimaru reborn, so he'll be into yaoi too.

[dragonrage]

well it was said that naruto took the likeness of the fourth and that he and the fourth share alot of the same qualities and everyone respects and honors the fourth.... So a change ion his character should be expected but he is still young foolish and harded as ever so... his childishness is to be expected... Just like Lee's but everyone else is kinda weird. I have never know Shino to the the sulky type I think that takes

[Abdula]

Thats just it although, team & is supposed to be the second coming of the Sannin none of them resemble the Sannin personality wise. It is pretty obvious that Naruto is going to be just like the fourth and Sasuke is becoming more like Itachi. Never mind I just got an answer, Sasuke's goal is to surpass Itachi and Naruto's goal is to surpass the fourth and Sakura is just along for the ride, since she doesn't have any one she wants to surpass or any goals beyond Sasuke's return I guess she is just like Tsunade. I always got the feeling she is only as strong as she is because she was always competing with Orochimaru and Jiraiya, if not for them I think she would have turned out a lot like Shikamaru because she is a lazy slacker.

[XanBcoo]

Thats just it although, team & is supposed to be the second coming of the Sannin none of them resemble the Sannin personality wise.
Naruto is hyperactive, a bad student, and perverted, just like Jiraiya.
Sasuke is a loner who leaves the group and village, with a tendency to follow his own ambitions ignoring the well-being of others.

I agree that there's less of a connection between Sakura and Tsunade, but after the time jump, I think they helped to reinforce the similarities - at least in terms of their skills.

But yeah, most of Kishimoto's female characters are indeed just "along for the ride."

[Abdula]

I know about Naruto and Sasuke and their similarities with the Sannin, I'm just saying there aren't many beyond the fact that they were each trained by one of them. Sasuke was a lot like Orochimaru but the only thing they had in common was that they both wanted power and cared about that more than anything else, the same could be said about Itachi. Being hyperactive, a pervert and a bad student is really much because the same could be said about konohamaru and if you leave out the perverted part even Kiba could fit that description.

Anyway everyone could have a few things in common with someone else, I just don't like cloned characters but Naruto and Sasuke have definitely distinguished themselves from their Sannin counterparts and nobody cares about Sakura anyway. Kishi should really develop some strong female characters though, the only one he has is Tsunade. Spoiler Removed and I thought we were going to see something from Temari but that didn't happen and it doesn't look like he is going to do much with Sakura either.

Do not mention characters that haven't been introduced yet
-Assassin

I was unaware of this as well. I guess I really was just on autopilot that week.

[Buffalobiian]

C By that logic anyone one who has enough chakra which would include Sasuke since it was stated that chidori uses more chakra than rasengan and knows shadow clones, which most chuunin and all jounin know should be able to use rasengan.


Shadow Clone is suppose to be a sealed technique. Not everyone knows it. The only ones I've seen use it are Kakashi and the Third.


Medical ninja are only background characters anyway, their only purpose is to heal the injured and according to Tsunade she is not even suppose to engage the enemy. Not that being a medical ninja isn't a wonderful accomplish especially to be on that level at her age, but medical ninja are more or less just support ninja. Her presence will of course affect the outcome of any battle but as far as one on one combat goes Sakura isn't much of a threat, yet.

Tell that to Sasori.

As for Tsunade being a lazy bum, we've never been shown her like that when she was young. I had a feeling that she became a gambling addict, as well as quite unproductive after her lover died.

There wasn't any real reason for Sakura to learn any genjitsu over time. She specifically said she wanted to be a medical ninja just like Tsunade. As for as medical ninja skills used in battle, they develop outstanding chakra control (or perhaps they have that to start with, but it sharpens the skill nevertheless). This can manifest itself as superstrength in Tsunade's/Sakura's case, or in Kabuto's case, maintaining a sharp "scalpel".

Who's saying Naruto is perverted. Sure, he makes some perverted techniques, but his reason for doing so is that it takes out the enemy (men, in this case. Perverted men.) He himself doesn't go crazy or anything, and doesn't even enjoy books like Makeout Paradise. You can't really call that perverted can you?

[Yukimura]

Ebisu and Tsunade also used the Shadow Clone technique and the Chunnin exam examiners recognized it (and were impressed that Naruto could use it). Ever since then I've been under the impression it is less a banned technique and more of a 'for high level ninja's who know what they're doing only' technique. If they taught it as an academy skill stupid kids would probably try to use them like Naruto does and drain their chakra to nothing very quickly.

[XanBcoo]

Yeah, clearly the Shadow Clone Jutsu was retconned from a "forbidden technique" to a "technique that only skilled ninja know" after the first episode.

[Abdula]

The shadow clone technique is taught to all ninjas when they become Jounin. That was clearly stated at some point but I can't remember when. Most people wouldn't use the technique because it supposedly divides up all of the user's chakra among the clones, like when Naruto used it against Neji.

[Animeniax]

How did this become a discussion about rasengan and shadow clones? Those topics have nothing to do with the age of the characters and how they affect how you feel about the show. Get back on topic, people.

I stopped watching Naruto Shippuuden at episode 19, because it lost all of its humor and the characters were so unlikeable, since they hadn't changed at all in 3 (2.5) years.

[Abdula]

So I take it that you haven't watched any of the recent episodes, because if you haven't you should for those very reasons.

[Animeniax]

What I really don't like about the series as a whole is that they keep introducing new characters instead of developing existing characters. I guess all long running shounen anime are that way, but it's such a waste.

[Crash]

I don't personally think the characters being older is hurting the anime. Personally i think it has given the show a more mature vibe, which i like. The problem as i see it is this: At the beginning of the original "Naruto" he was pretty much just useless and annoying, but we got to watch him grow as a ninja and by the end he had become a fitting rival for Sasuke. Now Shippuuden has started, and it's like we're going to have to watch him go from loud suckbag to kick ass all over again. It's just kind of rediculous and it puts me off quite a bit. Sakura spends 3 years training with Sunade and comes out vastly improved and a much cooler character, but Naruto spends all that time with Jiraiya and thus far it seems he has almost nothing to show for it. Well except for a bigger version of his Rasengan. Whats killing Shippuuden for me is that it seems like Naruto is almost starting over in terms of skill, instead of showing any improvement from pre-timeskip. Hopefully this new arc will change that.

[Abdula]

Bravo. I couldn't have said it better.

[Crash]

Ok so someone neg reped me and wrote a list of "skills" most of which i don't recognize the names of. Of the things he listed, i think the Shuriken and the Rasengan are the only ones we've seen thus far. He brought up the "Fox Cloak" as well, but i don't consider what amounts to a berserker state where he's completely out of control of himself, to the point of attacking his friends, to be an actual skill.

In any case i suppose i should clarify my meaning. When i refer to "Skill" i don't mean simply acquiring techniques. Example: Pre-time skip Sakura didn't just lack techniques. She was scared, unconfident, over reliant on others, and just plain had no fighting spirit/sense. All those things made her a huge liability. As we've seen post time skip after 2.5 years of training with Sunade she has overcome those intangible flaws.

Pre-Time skip Naruto was reckless, over emotional, and like Sakura lacked a lot of basic fighting sense. These things were often liabilities as well. Post-Time skip it appears he's overcome none of that. Yeah they showed what i thought would be some promising things in the Kakashi battle at the beginning of the series, but when it really mattered all his flaws were still there. As soon as he saw Gaara he completely lost his head (over emotional) and charged after Deidara on his own (reckless). Then he lost his cool beating on Deidara and went into berserker "Fox Cloak" mode and tried to kill Kakashi (over emotional and reckless). I'm not saying i wanted Naruto to be the cold calculating fighter Sasuke is, but i did hope that 2.5 years training with one of the Legendary Sanin might have afforded him some of the same self-control and intangible fighting assets Sakura managed to aquire.

[Abdula]

Ignore the closed-minded, idiotic naruto fanboys. Naruto at this point hasn't grown much, his battle strategy, use of jutsu and his ability to assess his opponent’s strengths and weaknesses are still the same. So while he may have more charka/stamina now and he has a more powerful rasengan nothing else has changed. I suppose his lack of growth is most likely due to Jiraiya's training method with him. Naruto is not a good student and Jiraiya doesn't seem to have much patience with him so if his training with Jiraiya for the last 2.5 years was anything like when Jiraiya taught him the rasengan there would have been very little actual hands on training.

If Naruto had grown that much his character would have changed a lot which is not something I think Kishi wants to do at this point. Besides if Naruto had suddenly become so strong the battles he has been in would've certainly had different outcomes and the show itself would’ve had a different feel. Naruto is supposed to be the inexperienced, overemotional underdog who blindly rushes into things. That is what most shonen protagonists are.

[poopdeville]

Yeah, clearly the Shadow Clone Jutsu was retconned from a "forbidden technique" to a "technique that only skilled ninja know" after the first episode.

I thought it was considered 'forbidden' because it was dangerous to unskilled users, since their chakra is divided equally between the bodies. There's no reason not to use it if you have the chakra to make it worthwhile.

Also note that Naruto hasn't perfected it, and probably shouldn't be using it at all if it weren't for his monster chakra. Consider that Sarutobi's kage bunshins could take clean hits without dissolving, whereas Naruto's can't. I'm guessing the chakra "stored" in that kage bunshin just disappears.

And in support of the first point, there are only been 3 known kage bunshin users. Naruto, Kakashi, and Sarutobi. I'd expect the fourth Hokage had the chakra to use. Jiraiya too. All these guys have/had ridiculous amounts of chakra.

Everybody else seems to settle for things like mud and water clones.

Edit: Somebody mentioned Ebisu and Tsunade using it. I don't remember Tsunade, but I'll concede Ebisu did. And I guess he's "just" a "Special Jounin", not a real Jounin.

[The Heretic Azazel]

Tsunade did it but that was a filler episode, where she was chasing Naruto around Konoha.

[Abdula]

Oh would you people stop with this ridiculous discourse.
The shadow clone technique:
1. Is not forbidden
2. Any jounin level ninja can use it
3. Most people don’t use it because it wastes charka
4. Naruto himself doesn’t utilize the shadow clones properly just like with everything else he does.

[Munsu]

The Kage Bunshin is forbidden, but the real danger comes with the Taju Kage Bunshin, which is the mass replication one. Also, I don't think the other characters are actually doing Kage Bunshin. And if they are, you also have to ask youself, when did the technique become forbidden? So that some of the older characters know it, doesn't make it any less of a forbidden technique.

That aside, having older characters doesn't hurt the series. "It's annoying how he acts like a dumb kid", the thing is that he's still a kid. He isn't "grown-up" as some have made him out to be.

[Idealistic]

^^ yeah no kidding... He's like 15 or 16 right now. That's still pretty much a kid.

Like I've said, the older chars aren't hurting the show. It's the animation and the lame pathetic dialogue "let's get stronger!" that ruin the show.

[Abdula]

I don't know if the technique is forbidden because it was said that if Naruto was to read that scroll that he would somehow be able to release the Kyuubi blah, blah, blah and we know that wasn't true.

Also the first few episode/chapters in the series were absolute crap, I don't think Kishi knew back then exactly what direction he wanted the whole Naruto/Kyuubi angle to go in. If the scroll and what was in it is such a big deal I would think that the third would have made more of a fuss about it so I just chalk all that up to the series just starting off.

The shadow clone technique can't be forbidden because, forbidden techniques have a tremendous risk to the user and although using it would quickly use up the majority of your chakra unlike chidori it doesn't seem to have much risk to your life force. All one needs to know to be able to use the shadow clone tecnhnique is one seal, I think a forbidden technique would be more difficult to perform than that and secondly it was said that the technique is taught to all jounins so if the technique is forbidden they wouldn't still be teaching it.

[Assertn]

Naruto himself doesn’t utilize the shadow clones properly just like with everything else he does.
He seemed to be doing a pretty good job with his jutsus since the start of shippuuden.
You are just too ridiculously biased against Naruto.

[Munsu]

I don't know if the technique is forbidden because it was said that if Naruto was to read that scroll that he would somehow be able to release the Kyuubi blah, blah, blah and we know that wasn't true.

The problem is that Naruto didn't read the scroll, he merely read the first jutsu he saw in there.

[Abdula]

He seemed to be doing a pretty good job with his jutsus since the start of shippuuden.
You are just too ridiculously biased against Naruto.

I'm not biased, I'm fair. I agree with you that he has been using the shadow clones better since shippuden started the thing is before then the shadow clones were for the most part just a weapon of mass distraction albeit a good one.

Besides I doubt a justu like shadow clones would simply just be used to distract and enemy or provide the extra hands he needs to use the rasengan. Kisame and Zabuza utilized their water clones well and we all saw what the third did with his, although that is an unfair comparison but he was the one that was always going on about wanting to be hokage.

I suppose Naruto's misuse of the shadow clones may be a result of his lack of supplemental jutsu but that is a horrible excuse and really would only make him a failure of a ninja. Jiraiya did tell him to not conserve chakra so properly utilizing the clone is probably far from his mind but against Akatsuki level opponents on has to be more cautious. He can't just rely on rasengans and a large number of shadow clones to win all his battles. I would think that properly utilizing a few clones would be better than trying to defeat them with just sheer numbers especially because ninjas are supposed to be elite and by now everyone knows about his rasengan.


The problem is that Naruto didn't read the scroll, he merely read the first jutsu he saw in there.

Still if all he needed to unseal the Kyuubi was a scroll that a genin, wait he didn't even graduate the academy when that happened so if all he needed to release the Kyuubi was a scroll that an academy level ninja was able to steal, read and decipher then what the hell did the fourth waste his life for.

Wait so not only is Naruto still a genin but he didn't even graduate the academy Iruka just gave him a pass.

Oh and the shadow clone technique isn't forbidden, forbidden means that the ninja that uses the jutsu would be putting his life at risk or that the jutsu requires the sacrifice of a life and there would be some kind of punishment if one was a known user of the technique. The curse seal, Oro's reincarnation jutsu, Chiyo's jutsu and Sasori's human puppet jutsu are perfect examples.

[Yukimura]

Lol I can't believe you don't think you're biased. But it's an unprovable theory so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Anyway, I think you're right about it not being forbidden. Back in episode 1 when Naruto reads the name of the first jutsu in the Scroll of Sealing he says Taju Kage Buunshin no Jutsu, not Kage Buunshin no Jutsu. It's a safe bet that if the scroll described how to perform Taju Kage Buunshin it probably went into some detail about how Kage Buunshin worked as well, which is how Naruto learned both. When Iruka saw the technique he recognized it and called it Kage Buunshin no Jutsu and referred to it as a "high level technique" indicating that he recognized and was familiar with it. I would be very surprised if a Forbbiden technique would be common knowledge for a chuunin middle school teacher.

And I don't think being dangerous is a concrete prerequisite for a jutsu to be forbidden, it's more of a commonly occurring theme in jutsu's that have been forbidden. If a Kage feels a jutsu shouldn't be used, then it is forbidden, and a good reason to not want a jutsu to be used would be that it is too dangerous to the user or it is too costly and not worth it (Edo Tensei).


As to the scroll breaking the seal, I don't think it was having the scroll that was going to allow Naruto o break the seal it was his mental state. The Hokage was afraid of what would happen if the Kyuubi was released through Naruto's anger and had possession of the scroll to boot. We've seen that the Kyuubi is an intelligent being and if a giant frog and demon raccoon can use jutsu why not a 9-tailed demon fox?

As to Naruto's use of clones, he has his own way of doing things and it's worked for him so far. Naruto isn't a strategic thinker, it's just not in his nature, yet he's proven himself effective in taking out opponents in the past with clever, but childish tactics and sheer determination. If you think about it neither Lee nor Kiba are particularly strategic either, but they both do well when the chips are down. Naruto has a better battle record than both of them, defeating jounin level opponents left and right while we've only see Lee win a battle against himself and Kiba has never won a battle at all.

[Abdula]

I don't think there was any chance of Naruto breaking the seal. At that point the seal was still very strong and he wasn't yet able to even access the Kyuubi's chakra so again I
chalk that up to the series just beginning. Anyway this seal thing isn't very clear from what I saw when the third used it I don't know how it could've been used to seal the Kyuubi in Naruto although it was originally the fourth's technique so I think only he would know.

At one point it was said that the seal was in the process of breaking, then it was said that it wasn't because the seal was designed so that Naruto could gain access to the Kyuubi's chakra, then it was said that the seal was incorporating the kyuubi's chakra with Naruto's.

It was also said that Naruto could release the Kyuubi at anytime by just willing the seal to break which I don't think is true because we have seen him get desperate many times and literally beg the kyuubi for chakra yet the seal didn't break and designing the seal so that it would break just because the host got angry and wanted some extra chakra is foolish.

Now I know some idiot is going to say that the seal is breaking because how else would Naruto have been able to go one tail but it isn't. As we've seen from the very beginning Naruto has been able to access more and more of the kyuubi's chakra over time but that is simply due to his chakra capacity increasing as he grows older and uses the Kyuubi's chakra more not because the seal is breaking but because it is designed to allow Naruto to use the Kyuubi chakra.

What jounin level opponents has Naruo defeated?

The thing with Kiba and Lee is that they are far more skilled than Naruto is and they have more jutsu at their disposal. The only person Lee fought was Gaara and we all know he really stood no chance, and Kiba only fought the sound ninjas and none of the leaf ninjas involved in that mission really 'won' anything. The only two people anyone could make a case for is Choji and Neji and they by all rights should have been dead.

Yeah I don’t think I’m biased. Biased would mean that I’m prejudiced and predisposed to act in a particular way or have a certain opinion and I’m not. My opinions and conclusions are all the result of what I’ve seen and are supported by evidence therefore I’m not bias. “Naruto is a classic close combat idiot,” who is overemotional and only knows a total of three jutsu, whose only strategy is to charge at his opponents and he didn’t even graduate the academy. That is all fact.

[Jessper]

he didn’t even graduate the academy. That is all fact.

All fact but you know, that last point. He did graduate the academy, graduating the academy means you are a real ninja, and thus the headband. You mean that he didn't pass the final exam the FIRST time. He displayed he was able to do more than the exam asked for and so the teacher passed him.

If in college I fail a class the teacher still has the power to change that grade (it will almost never happen, don't get on my case about this) if the grade is changed then in fact I passed the class.

Now back to your "facts" gogo!

[Abdula]

Lol, why would you post something and then ask for people not to get on your case about it.

Fact is Naruto failed the exam therefore he failed to graduate. The exam required Naruto to perform the bunshin technique because he can perform the more difficult kage bunshin doesn't mean that he is able to perform bunshin. If the teacher changed your grade it doesn't change the fact that you failed. The truth is the truth it is not subjective.

I forgot to mention that Naruto failed the academy three times not just the FIRST time. He should be much older than he is then again there a lot of instances in Naruto where time didn't make any sense.

Like how Orochimaru was supposedly in Akatsuki when Itachi was there because he was supposed to have left Akatsuki tens years ago and at that point Itachi would've only been 10 so not only would he not have been in Akatsuki yet but he wouldn't have even killed the clan yet. I always wanted to know how the hell did Akatsuki ever have ten members the numbers just don't add up.

[Yukimura]

Jounin level opponents: Pre Skip, Shukakku and Kabuto(though at the cost of his life in Kabuto's case). Post Skip, clone Itachi and Diedara = Forced to retreat.

Failing the exam is objective, but the exam itself is subjective. It comes down to what you think is more important, practicality or 'the book'. If you only consider the practical use of the Clone jutsu, creating a diversion, the Shadow Clone jutsu is superior because shadow clones are real bodies that can affect and be affected by the world while regular clones can't (a perceptive person will notice that the wind doesn't move the hair of a clone, or that they don't leave foot prints). But if you want to go exactly by 'the book' then sure, he didn't deserve to graduate the academy because he didn't know a specific skill. The book doesn't care that he would never have a real world use for that skill because he knows another skill that perfectly replaces it.

As to his past failures all they prove is that in the past, he wasn't ready to graduate when he took the test in the past. All it takes is one time convincing the teachers that he deserves to pass and he does, that's how tests tend to work. Once he was recognized by Iruka as having sufficient skill to rate being a ninja he passed, I don't see what the number of times he tried and failed has to do with it. The whole point of testing is to make sure he was proficient enough to be a ninja, eventually, though it took 3-4 tries he knew enough to be proficient and thus he got his headband.

[Abdula]

I only mentioned the amount of times Naruto had failed because Jessper said that Naruto had only failed once. I was merely disputing whether or not Naruto failed the final exam or graduated because even though he did earn his headband and become a genin he did fail. Fact is fact.


Jounin level opponents: Pre Skip, Shukakku and Kabuto(though at the cost of his life in Kabuto's case). Post Skip, clone Itachi and Diedara = Forced to retreat.


This is far more interesting. I consider none of those to be "defeats."

Naruto didn't defeat Shukakku I didn't even consider it to be an opponent. Naruto defeated Gaara, he summons Gamabunta who then fought with Shukaku. Gamabunta knew that there was no way he could defeat Shukaku so he came up with a plan for them to awaken Gaara. I would hardly consider punching Gaara in the face to wake him up defeating Shukaku.

Naruto didn't defeat Kabuto that one is pretty much self-explanatory. Like I said before in my opinion Kabuto won that battle, simply because he got rasenganed doesn't mean he lost. Without Tsunade Naruto would've been dead and Kabuto had completely healed himself in a matter of minutes. Tsunade got slashed to pieces but I never heard anybody saying anything about her losing because she healed herself and then got back into the battle, Kabuto did the same thing albeit a bit slower while Naruto was lying there half dead. So plain and simple Kabuto won.

Itachi's clone I guess I could give you that one if not for the fact that is was just a clone whose intention was not to defeat them but to delay them. Naruto may have blasted him with the Rasengan but that battle was between Kakashi and Itachi and once again if it wasn't for Chiyo and Sakura Kishi alone knows what Itachi would've done to him in that genjutsu. Anyway my main point is that I don't consider Kakashi's clone holding Itachi's clone so that Naruto could Rasengan both of them to equate to Naruto defeating Itachi and apparently neither do you.

I don't think that there is much to say about Deidara. He didn’t even try to fight back against Naruto. Naruto only hit him with all but one punch. Deidara’s goal was to separate Naruto from Kakashi. Once again this battle was between Deidara and Kakashi. Without Kakashi, Naruto would’ve been defeated in about 2 minutes. Naruto himself was aware of just how useless he was during that entire battle. All his efforts being ineffective is what made him angry enough for the Kyuubi’s charka to begin taking control of him. Who knows what he would’ve done if Kakashi hadn’t suppressed the charka

I want Naruto to finally defeat a serious opponent one on one without any help. The one an only chance he got was against Sasuke and although he did put on an impressive show the outcome was inevitable.

[Yukimura]

Whatever, no matter what Naruto does you'll always think of some way in which to rationalize away any goodness on Naruto's part even if you have to make assumptions based on things there's no way to gauge. Since you are dead set on denying Naruto any credit for anything he's accomplished regardless of the circumstances there's no point in trying to convince you.

I would concede the last three are not sole Naruto victories, however the fact that you would deny Naruto credit for the actions of Gamabunta when he summoned Gamabunta to help him fight, (something the Third Hokage and Sannin all did) indicates to me that you are simply incapable or unwilling to accept that anything Naruto has done.

[Abdula]

I give Naruto a lot of credit, certainly more than you think. I don't deny him credit for the battle or summoning Gamabunta or defeating Gaara or any of the other stuff he has done. I just don't think that punching Gaara awake equates to him defeating Shukaku.

I criticize Naruto as much as I criticize all the other characters in the show, the show itself or life for that matter. I just never talk much about any of the other characters because no one else does. I remember criticizing Shinuze and Sakura awhile ago and criticizing just how difficult the rasengan was and the inconsistencies of the rules of Naruto a few pages back.
Remember that whole thing about people flying through rocks and stuff and their seemingly impervious bodies and clothing.

So while it may seem that I just plain hate Naruto that is untrue. My main problem with Naruto is that thus far he hasn't really been living up to his potential at least not in my opinion. It may seem that I'm heavily critical of him but I can assure you I am the same way with all the other characters in Naruto, its just never come up.

[Jessper]

Lol, why would you post something and then ask for people not to get on your case about it.

Fact is Naruto failed the exam therefore he failed to graduate. The exam required Naruto to perform the bunshin technique because he can perform the more difficult kage bunshin doesn't mean that he is able to perform bunshin. If the teacher changed your grade it doesn't change the fact that you failed. The truth is the truth it is not subjective.

I forgot to mention that Naruto failed the academy three times not just the FIRST time. He should be much older than he is then again there a lot of instances in Naruto where time didn't make any sense.

No it doesn't change the fact that he failed, but it does change the fact that he didn't graduate. He graduated the academy, that is all there is to it.

And I posted that because saying "no way it doesn't happen" just means you are ignorant, it is like someone watching an event then people saying it didn't happen to that person, the argument is useless.

He is a ninja, to be a ninja you must have graduated, Iruka passed Naruto and therefor he graduated, just not on that go.

EDIT: Reading the next post down also!~


I only mentioned the amount of times Naruto had failed because Jessper said that Naruto had only failed once. I was merely disputing whether or not Naruto failed the final exam or graduated because even though he did earn his headband and become a genin he did fail. Fact is fact.

I didn't say he only failed once (just that I thought you meant the first time, which I guess instead would be the third time) ;) Also, failing the final exam and graduating are clearly not mutually exclusive events, if Naruto failed the exam 4 times he can still graduate (obviously since he has his headband).

Really I do wish Naruto was less useless but in the mean time I can watch for stuff like the Sasori fight, or the Sannin fight. It is probably silly to watch the show for the side characters but /meh

[Kraco]

Deidara’s goal was to separate Naruto from Kakashi. Once again this battle was between Deidara and Kakashi. Without Kakashi, Naruto would’ve been defeated in about 2 minutes.

Or Deidara might be dead, which is something Kakashi failed to accomplish. After all, we have no idea how good Naruto actually would be in a real fight to death match now post time skip. He might have needed to go kyuubi coated, but if he had, Deidara probably would have been dead meat or forced to retreat, because he wouldn't have had any nice seal tags to subdue Naruto.

Although it's hard to judge because the one armed Deidara had enabled the cheat mode giving him unlimited clay (that was still all the time running out according to him, yet never did), so who knows, he might have molded a nuclear bomb and defeated kyuubi Naruto that way if needed.

[Buffalobiian]

You can deny Naruto every defeating a Jounin. He skipped right past the Jounin target and tried straight for Sannin, and almost had him. I'd put that on par with the ability to defeat a Jounin, considering how many tried that feat and failed. The only other person I know who had done something similar was Tsunade, another Sannin.


It was also said that Naruto could release the Kyuubi at anytime by just willing the seal to break which I don't think is true because we have seen him get desperate many times and literally beg the kyuubi for chakra yet the seal didn't break and designing the seal so that it would break just because the host got angry and wanted some extra chakra is foolish.

Back when he first learned about using Kyuubi's Chakra, he couldn't get it unless his instincts kicked in when something was about to kill him. As he learns to master it's control, he releases more and more. At the beginning of Shippuuden, the fox was tempting him to release the seal, but Sasuke stopped him. That leads my to believe the fox knows Naruto can undo the seal.

[Abdula]

Really I do wish Naruto was less useless but in the mean time I can watch for stuff like the Sasori fight, or the Sannin fight. It is probably silly to watch the show for the side characters but /meh

For some reason when I read your posts something always makes me laugh. Its not silly to watch the show for the side characters, no show would be anything without the side characters. The secondary characters in Naruto also get a lot more attention and screen time that characters in other shows.

@ Kraco: As we've seen in the past long range fighters trump close range fighters and Deidara had previously defeated Gaara so I think he would have easily been able to defeat Naruto. I think you're forgetting that before Kakashi attacked Deidara with his MS and distracted him enough so that Naruto could get close to him neither one of them had any way of attacking or stopping Deidara

@ Buffalobiian: What sannin did Naruto almost defeat, I think you're imaging stuff. Anyway Naruto defeating a Sannin or jounin doesn't really stand for anything. Yes it would be a great accomplish meant but its not really saying much. Its not like bleach where defeating a captain would automatically make you a captain class opponent. Defeating a jounin in Naruto doesn't mean you would be able to defeat other jounins or stand any chance against them whatsoever. The fighting styles and techniques in Naruto are far more diverse and they affect the outcome of battle in Naruto much more.

The preview in the beginning of Naruto isn't much to go on. The fox was asking Naruto to use his power a la tailed Naruto. I just feel it would be stupid if Naruto was so easily able to completely undo the seal and release the Kyuubi since the fourth went through all the trouble of sealing it in the first place and because the seal also allows Naruto to use the Kyuubi chakra without releasing the Kyuubi. He just needs to learn to control it.

Anyway releasing and being able to use more and more of the Kyuubi chakra is not releasing the Kyuubi itself. If Naruto is able to go nine tails and have control over himself that is not releasing the Kyuubi, even if he can't control it and he runs around destroying everything that would just be him going berserker mode because he can't control the Kyuubi's power. Its not the same as releasing the full power competent Kyuubi.

The only thing that would qualify as Naruto releasing the Kyuubi would be if he learned a jutsu similar to the one Gaara used to release Shukaku but there hasn't been any evidence to indicate that Naruto may be able to use a jutsu like that because of the seal the fourth used. I was always under the impression that if the seal was released or broken that the Kyuubi was out plain and simple and that there would be no more Naruto.

[Jessper]

For some reason when I read your posts something always makes me laugh. Its not silly to watch the show for the side characters, no show would be anything without the side characters. The secondary characters in Naruto also get a lot more attention and screen time that characters in other shows.


I am not really sure if this is an insult or a compliment so we will go with the latter, THANKS! =P

[Kraco]

@ Kraco: As we've seen in the past long range fighters trump close range fighters and Deidara had previously defeated Gaara so I think he would have easily been able to defeat Naruto. I think you're forgetting that before Kakashi attacked Deidara with his MS and distracted him enough so that Naruto could get close to him neither one of them had any way of attacking or stopping Deidara

I think you missed the "plot device" text printed on Deidara's forehead during the Deidara vs. Kakashi & Naruto fight. Seriously, Kakashi used his jutsu a few times and got so exhausted, even without receiving any wounds, that he must sleep for a week in a hospital. Deidara fought Gaara, lost a fricking arm, flew over the desert, pumped god only knows how much chakra into the bijuu sucking stone statue for a couple of days, without rest, and then proceeded to fight against Kakashi and Naruto, plus the whole Gai team. It might be just me but this just doesn't compute.

I don't know what purpose the whole Deidara chase served in the end, but I certainly wouldn't judge Naruto's strength based on it.

[Abdula]

That just shows you how strong Akatsuki members are thats why I keep saying that against them Naruto's amount of chakra isn't anything special. What plot device did you forget that Kisame and Itachi had projections of themselves extracting the bijuu from Gaara while their bodies were somewhere else and they still had copies of themselves fighting Gai's and Kakashi's teams.

Akatsuki members are just really strong, plus Kakashi has low chakra capacity. That is why he has so much trouble using the sharingan and why he can't use raikiri much he just doesn't have the chakra.

The purpose was to try and get hot-headed Naruto away from Kakashi so he could attempt to capture him. I'm not using it to judge Naruto's strength its just shows that against a long range fighter like Deidara, naruto doesn't even have anyway to attack him. It has nothing to do with strength it just shows that Naruto would not be able to fight someone like deidara, thats why I said long range fighters trump close range fighters.

[DarthEnderX]

I like how you've said "it was clearly stated at some point, but I don't remember when exactly" like 5 times now, and all for things that have never been clearly stated.


Did Animeniax make a new account called Abdula?

[Abdula]

Give me specific examples and then I'll tell you when it happened. As a matter of fact if it bothers you that much find it out yourself.



Did Animeniax make a new account called Abdula?

You know honestly, I've found myself thinking that exact same thing on a number of occasions but I have no intention of becoming what Animeniax once was or I guess I should say still is.

[Kraco]

What plot device did you forget that Kisame and Itachi had projections of themselves extracting the bijuu from Gaara while their bodies were somewhere else and they still had copies of themselves fighting Gai's and Kakashi's teams.

Kisame and Itachi's copies were using the bodies of some hapless fools. They burned those bodies out to the death, so I doubt they used very much of Kisame and Itachi's own chakra. Besides, didn't Kisame and Itachi leave Konoha at one point because Itachi was stretching his strength already when fighting Kakashi & Co? Itachi isn't some uber pool of chakra like Deidara The Armless Ninja seems to be. Although considering Deidara has unlimited pool of explosive clay, I guess generating chakra out of nowhere is one of his lesser skills.

Well, I'm outta this debate anyway. That arc was so ridiculous in general I feel like I'm losing IQ just by trying to remember its "finer" details.

[Abdula]

Actually it was expressly stated that both Kisame and Itachi had to give 30% of their chakra to their clones for the jutsu to work. They weren't using the chakra of the host or their abilties, I was under the impression that the bodies were just a physical host that was to be transformer into the likeness of the user similar to what Oro did with sound genin when he brought back the Hokages. That jutsu required the life of the sacrifices and I assume this one did as well so the hosts were already dead.

Itachi actually is some uber pool of chakra all the Akatsuki are.

[Buffalobiian]

@ Buffalobiian: What sannin did Naruto almost defeat, I think you're imaging stuff. Anyway Naruto defeating a Sannin or jounin doesn't really stand for anything. Yes it would be a great accomplish meant but its not really saying much. Its not like bleach where defeating a captain would automatically make you a captain class opponent. Defeating a jounin in Naruto doesn't mean you would be able to defeat other jounins or stand any chance against them whatsoever. The fighting styles and techniques in Naruto are far more diverse and they affect the outcome of battle in Naruto much more.

Where have you been these last two weeks? Specifically, where have you been when Jiraiya lifted his shirt and said Naruto almost killed him?? Agreeing with you that techniques matter more than actual rank. After all, Naruto is a genin. I can almost garuntee he'll beat all those new grads from the academy. But do you really think the skills he used against Jiraiya wouldn't mean a thing at all? I can't imagine some guy going "Oh, I defeated Orochimaru the other day." and his opponent: "Pff, your techniques are just his weakness, that's all. You're no match for me."

[DarthEnderX]

Give me specific examples and then I'll tell you when it happened. As a matter of fact if it bothers you that much find it out yourself.Alright, here:
The shadow clone technique is taught to all ninjas when they become Jounin. That was clearly stated at some point but I can't remember when. That has never, *ever* been stated anywhere in the show, and you've used that "fact" to support your argument multiple times now. And no, *I'm* not going to find it for you because, A. Its not for other people to support your arguments and B. I can't anyway, because you made it up.

If you can find it, I owe you an apology.

Its funny, because I actually agree with you. Naruto is a moron who doesn't win 90% of his fights. He's only really beat Neji and Kiba and one of those is was through slapstick comedy. All his other fights he either flat out loses like against Sasuke, or he fights to mutual elimitation like Kabuto. Or if anyone thinks that his fight against Gaara wasn't a draw(where he couldn't even crawl anymore at the end) they're crazy. Or someone else has to finish his fight for him, like Haku or Diedera.

Which makes it doubly annoying that you feel the need to make up things to support your arguments because in this case, the evidence is there already without you pulling shit out of your ass.

[Kraco]

Or if anyone thinks that his fight against Gaara wasn't a draw(where he couldn't even crawl anymore at the end) they're crazy.

I'm not denying I'm crazy, but technically speaking Naruto won that fight. Gaara's mission was to wreck havoc in Konoha, Naruto's mission was to stop Gaara. Now, what happened? Gaara was stopped and it was Naruto who stopped him. In the end we aren't talking about boxing matches here but ninja. No matter how you end up accomplishing the mission objective, as long as its fulfilled, you have done your work. It wasn't Naruto's mission to cleanly kill Gaara and then dance on his grave but to stop him.

[Yukimura]

I can't imagine some guy going "Oh, I defeated Orochimaru the other day." and his opponent: "Pff, your techniques are just his weakness, that's all. You're no match for me."

As much as it's annoying for ranking strengths I can see that happening easily. I saw Naruto vs Neji and Neji vs Kidomaru as a prime example. Naruto beat Neji fair and square by simply overpowering and out lasting him in a hand to hand fight. Neji had lots of chakra, but Naruto had more and kept fighting longer than Neji could. But if you put Naruto up against Kidomaru I can't imagine how he wouldn't just get caught by the webs and killed. Even if he managed to escape all the spider threads there wouldn't be much he could have done against those high-speed long ranged attacks Kidomaru used at the end.

As to Jiraiya he strikes me as a primarily close to mid-range fighter, and when Naruto goes Kyubii he seems to become godly at close range combat. It's not hard to imagine a multi tailed Naruto just being too fast and powerful for even Jiraiya to fully defend against if he was sparring with Naruto at close-mid range. But if someone like Diedara, who denies his enemies close range access, fought Kyubii Naruto he might stand a better chance than Jiraiya by the simple fact that Naruto would have more trouble getting to him.

[Buffalobiian]

Yeah, okay. Got nothing against that.

[XanBcoo]

But if you put Naruto up against Kidomaru I can't imagine how he wouldn't just get caught by the webs and killed. Even if he managed to escape all the spider threads there wouldn't be much he could have done against those high-speed long ranged attacks Kidomaru used at the end.
Wasn't Kidomaru basically tailor-made to beat Neji? I always thought Neji's win was impressive despite his weakness to long-range fighting.

What I'm saying is that's not the best example, since Kidomaru would have/should have trumped both of them. It was only Neji's deus-ex-machina ability to attack Kidomaru after being impaled that eventually won him that fight.