Naruto fails at its theme

[RasenDori]

all this time characters preach about hard work, but when does it ever pay off in this story? it seems like characters that have kekkei genkai or bijuus sealed in them, or some sort of born with talent succeed. it tries to play naruto off as a hard working type, but the only reason for his growth at all is the demon sealed in him and the fact that he was born with an insane amount of chakra which furth spoils the them.

this fight with b/t sasuke and deidara is further proff. diedara never stood a chance and was countered every step of the way. sure he managed have sasuke use up his chakra, but fight was extremely once sided just because sasuke was born with godly eyes. next chapter sasuke will find a way to survive, and one of the coolest ninja in the series will fade away into obscurity.

maybe well will get to see a real hard worker like hinata finally grow... oh wait she has a fucking kekkei genkai too.

[Idealistic]

I think they have strayed away from ninja tactics and team missions a lot ever since the Chuunin exams.

You now see many straight up 1v1 fights that the only reason it has anything to do with ninjas is their jutsus. Other than that it's sort of a regular fighting show.

There's rarely any sneaking or assassination things going on.

[Mkadoza]

Well the reason we aren't seeing much stealth or assination is because of the level of the ninjas that are involved. Its not like they are infiltrating some obscure area or assassination a weak lord. These are Jounin+ leveled ninjas and sneaking up and ending a fight before it starts isn't going to happen. Instead the stratigic aspect becomes more prevelant, at least in Shikamaru's case. Sasuke combines a great stratigic mind with a diverse set of jutsu and a natural enhancement. Naruto uses endgame type techniques and has the predictive ability to set up opportunuities to use these skills. And despite all the different styles and techniques, we see them used to great effect and thats whats makes it fun.

As to the theme of Naruto, I would have dto disagree with you that hard work pays is the theme. That became a main theme more with Rock Lee, where as Naruto wanted to work hard to become Hokage was his way of seeking out acceptance. But in Naruto's case it wasn't the hard work that seperates him. Its his natural abilities combined with hard work that makes him special. And at this point in the manga, all the top ninjas have worked hard to get where they're at, so hard work trumping natural talent isn't gonna be seen as much as it was at the Genin level.

The primary theme of Naruto, which is still a priority, is the loyalty and allience to your allies and teammates and friends. Whether it was Kakashi's training on teamwork, or Shikamaru's speech before setting out for Sasuke, or to this whole Arc where Naruto searches for Sasuke via Itachi, its always been about never leaving that teammate behind. And this theme is what motivated Naruto to train so hard.

PS. I just thought of this while typing but I can see a final combo attack with Naruto's Rasen Shuriken and Sasuke's still unrevealed "that" jutsu, which I and most believe is a Katon jutsu. Naruto said that his wind manipulation could strengthen Sasuke's fire, a kind of premonition that I think will come to pass in a final confrontation with ....?

[RasenDori]

the idea of friendship and protecting precious things is a standard shonen theme, which is why i regarded hard work as the main theme.

as far as rock lee goes, he fails at every major battle, and its always made him look pitiful in my eyes, someone who works so hard getting overpowered in the. its the same situation with deidara and sasuke. sure everyones working hard in the series, but at least once id like to see a kekkei genkai user lose to someone beside a jinchuuriki

[Assertn]

It's a theme. Pretty much every saga has its own theme.

Zabuza arc - having emotions vs being shinobi "tools"
Chuunin arc - hard work vs genius
Naruto vs Gaara - fighting for oneself vs fighting for others
Tsunade arc - live for the future vs living in the past
Sasuke chase arc - fighting for bonds that were broken vs fighting for bonds that were made

etc....

[February]

As said before, Naruto's main theme is protecting your friends and helping others
As for the character Naruto himself, its more about gaining other's respect through friendliness and helping others.

Naruto himself was never about hard work. Sure, he worked hard to train and we saw those results but he wasnt meant to symbolize hard work. Someone like Rock Lee was.

I guess you are frustrated because someone born with advanced powers always beat someone who doesnt. Well, thats more realistic than someone who doesnt have powers beating someone who does. Its like that in real life, if you are born rich, you will be better off (educationally/ physically / emotionally)

And Deidara was meant to die in this battle...he's not even one of the important main Akatsuki members (such as Zero or Itachi) fighting the 2nd most important character in the series (and a major villian now perhaps)

Just because you have an advanced bloodline doesnt mean you cant work hard either

and you say Rock Lee looked pitiful but even after the losing fight versus Gaara happened, many people converted to Rock Lee fans. Even though he lost the fight, it put emphasis on Rock Lee's character

Since your theme is mistaken, can we close this thread

[RasenDori]

its just really frustrating seeing someone badass enough to best a jinchuuriki with well thought out plan, and a lack of materials, beaten so easily by an overpowered kekkei genkai. i understand that deidara was meant to lose this fight. i was prepared for that fact from the beginning. its an awful message to send saying that strong people are born that way. id be more satisfied if this fight wasnt so onesided. those damn eyes gave sasuke the upper hand in every play deidara made.

[Rhanfahl]

It's a theme. Pretty much every saga has its own theme.

Zabuza arc - having emotions vs being shinobi "tools"
Chuunin arc - hard work vs genius
Naruto vs Gaara - fighting for oneself vs fighting for others
Tsunade arc - live for the future vs living in the past
Sasuke chase arc - fighting for bonds that were broken vs fighting for bonds that were made

etc....

You have never been one to mince words...This is very well thought and concise. I have to agree with this completely.

And personally...I never really liked Deidara much. I certainly thought he was unique and interesting. But he's kinda a one trick wonder. He makes birds/bugs with clay and Vampire D hands, then uses them to blow crap up. I don't think Deidara is really any big loss. Personally I think Tobi could end up being a much deeper character.

[Yukimura]

@RasenDori: Neji was pushed to the absolute limit against Kidomaru and won because he wanted it more, not because of his Byakugan, If that's any consolation. Though I agree, the power unravel all other abilities is almost textbook broken. The thing that saves it for me is that even though he can see through things he still has to find ways to exploit the weaknesses his eyes reveal to him.

[Genma]

diedara never stood a chance and was countered every step of the way. sure he managed have sasuke use up his chakra, but fight was extremely once sided just because sasuke was born with godly eyes. next chapter sasuke will find a way to survive, and one of the coolest ninja in the series will fade away into obscurity.


This statement is a little bit contradictory, because you claim that hard work never overpowers natural talent / people born with skills, yet Deidara ultimately gave up in the end and blew himself up. That's technically suicide, and therefore, he didn't work as hard as he could. Take Rock Lee, for instance: I doubt he'd ever try to pull a Deidara, even if his body was drained of all chakra. That's why so many people like him as a favorite character, because even if he loses, he's still on par with opponents much stronger than him and he works so hard to try to win.

I guess on the flip side it could be said that Deidara was using the last bit of his energy in an attempt to beat Sasuke, but meh, whatever. The previous point still stands.

And ps, I'm sorry you're all pissy at Naruto for killing of your favorite villian, who I personally found to be bland and boring.

[RasenDori]

im not pissey about deidara dying i knew it would happen the moment he fought sasuke. i just found the fight highly unfair, and that ruined a lot of it for me. this is the third time in part too that little drugged up self righteous prick won a one sided fight. its boring.

and btw. i dont think deidara just gave up. he snapped after sasukes reaction. i probally would have done the same thing.

[Assertn]

and btw. i dont think deidara just gave up. he snapped after sasukes reaction. i probally would have done the same thing.
Except Rasendori's suicide will somehow involve Naruto fanart (http://rasendori.deviantart.com/).

[RasenDori]

OT: what! a shameless plugin for me? i actually have a hard time getting motivated doing fan art. my suicide would most likely involve a guy is dredlocks in hip-hop attire

[shinta|hikari]

I think the theme of Naruto, the overall one since it is true that each arc has its own theme is just the exact opposite. All the evidence Rasendori has used in this thread is pointing to this fact. Hardwork has never really beaten genius, and Naruto, though misunderstood, is technically very talented.

[Super5]

I think I can understand Rasendori's complaint. It seems that lately Kishimoto has elevated the Sharingan to some sort of Godhood. The outcome of fights with the Sharingan involved will always be a win for the Sharingan-user. The only fights that hold any interest now are ones where a Sharingan-user is fighting another Sharingan-user (especially Itachi vs. Sasuke, which will probably happen soon). What happened to Byakugan?? What happened to Shino, Kiba, Rock Lee, etc.??? The only thing Kishi spends any time on anymore is illustrating how godly the Sharingan is. It does get boring after a while...

[February]

I think I can understand Rasendori's complaint. It seems that lately Kishimoto has elevated the Sharingan to some sort of Godhood. The outcome of fights with the Sharingan involved will always be a win for the Sharingan-user. The only fights that hold any interest now are ones where a Sharingan-user is fighting another Sharingan-user (especially Itachi vs. Sasuke, which will probably happen soon). What happened to Byakugan?? What happened to Shino, Kiba, Rock Lee, etc.??? The only thing Kishi spends any time on anymore is illustrating how godly the Sharingan is. It does get boring after a while...

Its probably because the 2nd most important character in the series has the sharingan. Look at Naruto's Kyuubi? Its been discussed and shown and there is an entire arc of jinchuriki covering Naruto's kyuubi power.

Byakugan is cool but since sharingan is an evolution of a Byakugan (stated earlier in the series) and because evolutions should equal improvements, its natural that sharingan is shown as the godliest

I just wish that Kishi could show us a lot more different advanced blood lines

[elmojo]

it would have been hideously boring to see them keep up with one singular perspective, as viewers of naruto we are taught what a ninja is.. atleast in shonen's perspective :o
did anyone really expect it to be the same? obviously the protagonist and all the plots where going to exponentially exagerrate anything and thats what we have now and it is still entertaining!

i mean its not as SURPRISING as naruto beating neji during the chunin exams (that was sarcasm) but we finally see akatsuki for what it is :p and other plot twisting goodies

[shinta|hikari]

I cant make out what you meant with your post.

[Darthmoe]

Maybe Kishi is setting us up big time for something later on by portraying the sharingan as divine.

[Idealistic]

What happened to Byakugan?? What happened to Shino, Kiba, Rock Lee, etc.??? The only thing Kishi spends any time on anymore is illustrating how godly the Sharingan is. It does get boring after a while...

We can hope that after this Akatsuki arc and stuff is all done that Naruto will still continue. Perhaps then we can categorize all these arcs/episodes into one big arc and call it "The Sharingan Story". Then when all the info about Sharingan has been discussed, Kishi will move the story onto something else and perhaps focus more on other bloodlines maybe.

I think that will begin another time-jump/new series maybe.

[dsh1202]

another time skip would be pretty cool, after this current arc is over, and a focus on a different bloodline would be kinda cool, it would most likely be about the byakugan,