School Days [Archive] - Gotwoot Forums

Zati

Tue, 07-10-2007, 05:03 PM

Episode 1 - AniYoshi (XviD) (http://a.scarywater.net/animeyoshi/%5BAniYoshi%5D_School_Days_-_01_(XviD)_%5B42776509%5D.avi.torrent)
Episode 1 - AniYoshi (h264) (http://a.scarywater.net/animeyoshi/%5BAniYoshi%5D_School_Days_-_01_(h264)_%5B02F5F33E%5D.mkv.torrent)

Based on the fully animated game by 0verflow infamous for its violent scenes.

A shy and unconfident teenager has become very accepting at only stealing glances at a cute girl as they ride the same trolley each morning on their way to their high school. At least until Saionji Sekai surprises Itou Makoto and chances to get a peek at a photo-snap of the beautiful Katsura on his cell-phone. After evilly teasing Mokoto about his forlorn crush, Sekai offers to support him in his romance. So after many Makoto-pep-talks and lots of scheming, the three become close friends. Close enough that Makoto braves asking Katsura out on date. And she agrees. Later that day, Makoto finds a quiet moment express his thanks for all support that Sekai has offered him, and makes clear his intent on finding away to reply her kindness. But he is totally unprepared and very surprised at the reward that Sekai has chosen. Sekai steals a long kiss from his lips, before breaking away to run for the trolly. Sekai turns and wishes Makoto well on his date.

*taken from anime.mikomi.org*

Links :
AniDB (http://anidb.info/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=anime&aid=5117)
AnimeNfo (http://www.animenfo.com/animetitle,4026,xphgbg,school_days_tv.html)
ANN (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=7815)
Official Site (http://www.schooldays-anime.com/)

Yukimura

Tue, 07-10-2007, 06:28 PM

Wow, I was craving a series like this and poof here it is. I thought for a few moments that Sekai might have it in her to kiss him and then hold it together after leaving, but if she was like that i t wouldn't make for as much of a tragedy when the triangle starts to get out of hand.

BananaFob

Tue, 07-10-2007, 07:38 PM

I wonder which of the 21 endings they'll use.

NeoBear

Tue, 07-10-2007, 07:59 PM

i might be wrong but wasnt there a oav for this?

Yukimura

Tue, 07-10-2007, 08:07 PM

Board of Command

Tue, 07-10-2007, 08:18 PM

Do any other groups plan on subbing this? Not that I don't like AnimeYoshi...I just want to know what the other options are.

*downloads AnimeYoshi's release*

Yukimura

Wed, 07-11-2007, 01:38 AM

School Days - 01 - [Conclave] (http://a.scarywater.net/conclave/%5BConclave%5D_School_Days_-_01_%5B8E6F1E66%5D.avi.torrent)

Here's an alternative BoC.

Pro: They tend to do very good work.
Con: The last show they actually finished subbing was in Feburary of '06.

Board of Command

Wed, 07-11-2007, 08:28 AM

I'll check out Conclave's release later. I got AniYoshi's h264 release and the video quality was a bit disappointing.

Btw, this series is bursting with hentai vibes...

Yukimura

Wed, 07-11-2007, 12:38 PM

Well it did come from an erogame. Also the tv series is quite toned down compared to the ONA, which had panty shots, more violence, and a much more sensual kiss.

Xrlderek

Wed, 07-11-2007, 06:54 PM

I liked it and will be watching it. It's been a long time since I watched this kind of anime. The love triangle seems interesting and there were some funny parts in it.

Yukimura

Fri, 07-13-2007, 02:20 PM

School Days -02 RAW [1280x720] (http://animestation.googlepages.com/TV-JAPAN_School_Days_-_02_HD.torrent)
Subtitle File by [dareka] (http://www.sendspace.com/file/xyykhb) with some edits by yours truly.

Makoto picks up yet another chick, but still fails miserably at every turn. Good times.

animus

Fri, 07-13-2007, 07:06 PM

The sub timing's good at the beginning, but around the 4 minute mark it just goes completely off.

Yukimura

Fri, 07-13-2007, 07:24 PM

Odd, it's perfect for me, I don't know what the problem could be. But AniYoshi should release soon enough anyway so it won't matter much in the end.

RyougaZell

Sun, 07-15-2007, 12:31 PM

Was Conclave's quality good? AnimeYoshi's looks a bit bad...

And nobody ever subbed the rest of the ONA right? I saw only one ep on animesuki of the supposed six.

Board of Command

Sun, 07-15-2007, 02:15 PM

Conclave's h264 is noticeably better than AniYoshi's. Lines are sharper and colors don't look as washed out.

dark maginn

Mon, 07-16-2007, 03:11 AM

good eps and yea conclave does look a bit better

kenren

Mon, 07-16-2007, 05:27 AM

Hentai vibes?..
alright..that's enough reason for me to download.. LOL

*downloads*

shinta|hikari

Mon, 07-16-2007, 09:45 PM

Hentai vibes? I didnt really get that feel from the second episode. What I didnt like is how dense (well they always are, except for some which are my favorites) the main character can be. The impact of the kiss that actually got me wanting to watch this series was completely erased by episode two.

kenren

Wed, 07-18-2007, 05:58 AM

the first episode is alright , IMO.
it's funny when Itou's friend called him and said "Are you doing it?! Are you doing it ?!"

RyougaZell

Wed, 07-18-2007, 08:32 AM

Conclave Ep02
Xvid (http://a.scarywater.net/conclave/%5BConclave%5D_School_Days_-_02_%5B825985B2%5D.avi.torrent)
H264 (http://a.scarywater.net/conclave/[Conclave]_School_Days_-_02_[H264][AAC][BE192BF6].mkv.torrent)

Ep01 was good. Ep02 was so-so (maybe because we didn't see much Sekai... I prefer her over the other girl whats-her-name? oh yeah.. Katsura)

Board of Command

Wed, 07-18-2007, 07:13 PM

This series went down hill pretty fast. Way too anti-climatic.

shinta|hikari

Wed, 07-18-2007, 09:56 PM

Same opinion. I really had high hopes for this one, but its starting to look really idiotic and childish. I just hope they pull a good drama story together.

kenren

Thu, 07-19-2007, 12:25 AM

it's okay to me. I'm sure alot of conflicts are going to happen.. lets see which girl Itou's gonna pick =P

shinta|hikari

Thu, 07-19-2007, 02:50 AM

I bet its gonna be Sekai. This kind of show almost always goes that way. I really dont like Kotonoha anyway, so thats OK.

RyougaZell

Thu, 07-19-2007, 08:32 AM

Indeed... ep2 was very bad compared to ep1.
Hopefully the other girls incursion will change that... or at least show us more Sekai...

kenren

Thu, 07-19-2007, 08:45 AM

So.. I am the only one who likes the purple haired girl? @_@
Well, since Sekai kissed Itou..no doubt things are gonna happen between them sooner or later =D

Board of Command

Thu, 07-19-2007, 08:55 AM

So.. I am the only one who likes the purple haired girl?
Katsura is as generic as you can get with anime girls.

animus

Thu, 07-19-2007, 10:58 AM

Katsura is as generic as you can get with anime girls.

Atleast she's got big tits.

kenren

Thu, 07-19-2007, 11:09 AM

@BoC, I guess so XD

Well said, animus.

Yukimura

Thu, 07-19-2007, 03:11 PM

Evan a devout lover of blue and purple haired anime girls it's hard for me to favour Katsura over Sekai, (the breasts do help some but not nearly enough). Katsura is meek and timid, while Sekai is forceful and adventurous. I much prefer the girls who take initiative on their own to the ones who just twiddle their thumbs waiting for someone to come do everything for them. Their conversation near the end of ep 2 pretty much sealed the deal for me.

Well that and this (http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/130/schooldaysnaughtysekaijp1.jpg).

shinta|hikari

Tue, 07-24-2007, 04:30 AM

Its not like I like Sekai's character type, but if I had to choose she would of course take the cake.

Timid girly personalities should be reserved to Loli bodies.

Yukimura

Tue, 07-24-2007, 06:25 PM

School Days - 03 - [Conclave] (http://a.scarywater.net/conclave/%5BConclave%5D_School_Days_-_03_%5BH264%5D%5BAAC%5D%5BA3AEC12C%5D.mkv.torrent)

darkshadow

Tue, 07-24-2007, 06:50 PM

There was an ONA, I think it came out a while ago though.
First Ep of the ONA (http://www.veoh.com/videos/v731129q63m4wNY)

This version seems to be a bit more graphic/adult then the TV one. But I don't know where to find any other eps subbed of this.

Wow, that was terrible to watch >_>, the kissing/crying scene was great though, much better then in the anime itself, but other then that, it horrible somehow, must've been the different pacing.

After i finished watching ep1 i thought the series was cute, ep2 made me diss the series though, im hoping ep3 is any good otherwise ill drop this as a brick.

shinta|hikari

Tue, 07-24-2007, 07:35 PM

Its not really all that better. I was simply hoping it would end, similar to other romantic comedies that I have been watching recently just to kill time. But I like the last line of the episode though, hinting that Itou is not satisfied with his current relationship, and of course of a storm appraoching in the next episode.

Yukimura

Tue, 07-24-2007, 09:04 PM

I've got to give this show credit for the surprises it seems to like to throw in at the end of episodes. If it weren't for that last comment I wouldn't be looking forward to the next ep at all, but with it my interest is piqued a bit again.

I'm curious as to whether Itou is just horny and tired of waiting around for Katsura to become comfortable with him and her feelings or if he genuinely doesn't find her as interesting or exciting now that he's gotten to know her more.

Board of Command

Tue, 07-24-2007, 11:09 PM

Nice last line to cap off the episode. It was pretty slow prior to that.

This episode just raised the ecchi level way high. I would say, from a scale of 0 (Doraemon) to 10 (Night Shift Nurses), it's sitting at around 7.5 right now. I would not be surprised if next episode contained a couple scenes of

http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/8889/47593685byflight643yn3.jpg

shinta|hikari

Tue, 07-24-2007, 11:18 PM

More like Katsura is utterly irritating and tiring because of her beat around the bush attitude and weird responses to certain situations, especially if you are a thickheaded idiot like Itou.

Sekai definitely suits him more.

RyougaZell

Wed, 07-25-2007, 08:54 PM

Pretty dull episode.
Highlights were Sekai on her work uniform and the last line of the episode.
Kokoro is more interesting than Kotonoha too.

kenren

Thu, 07-26-2007, 09:19 AM

I can't believe Itou actually said "Tiring" .. that jerk..
anyway, my school days are ending and none of these happened to me =(
LOL, I can't really comment about the show now.. a few more episodes will do

Board of Command

Thu, 07-26-2007, 02:02 PM

anyway, my school days are ending and none of these happened to me =(
If life was like that, you wouldn't need a Visa.

shinta|hikari

Thu, 07-26-2007, 11:39 PM

It is tiring for Itou, since he is a horny bastard and his girlfriend is shut tighter than a clam.

Yukimura

Tue, 08-07-2007, 06:29 PM

School Days - 04 - [Conclave] (http://a.scarywater.net/conclave/%5BConclave%5D_School_Days_-_04_%5BH264%5D%5BAAC%5D%5BA0D36271%5D.mkv.torrent)

Better then the last ep I feel, since it had lots of Sekai in it. And lots of 'practice'.

I'm still only ~80% confident Sekai is trying to get as much of Makoto as she can without actively trying to steal him. They've done a decent job of leaving open the possibility that she is actually conflicted about whether she wants him and she's just reacting as things happen.

I am convinced however that Katsura and Makoto should just end this farce. He doesn't seem the the type to play Knight-in-Shining-Armor for a girl, even if that's what it would take to make her feel comfortable. And though she might force herself to change for him, in the end it would just end badly for them.

Board of Command

Tue, 08-07-2007, 07:21 PM

I'd say this has been the best episode so far. Lots of Sekai is always good.

oyabun

Tue, 08-07-2007, 10:57 PM

Damn... itou is such as perverted kid. Just because you gf doesn't want to do it yet doesn't mean you could screw your close friend.

RyougaZell

Tue, 08-07-2007, 11:52 PM

Best episode in this series till today...
Itou is an idiot who should dump Katsura and go after Sekai...
I hate Katsura... and this ep rocked... until Katsura sent her damn email...
Sekai seemed a bit reluctant to let Makoto kiss her (even though they have before) but not on him touching her? Heck...

animus

Wed, 08-08-2007, 09:01 AM

Board of Command

Wed, 08-08-2007, 12:29 PM

Has anyone checked out the anon releases?

RyougaZell

Wed, 08-08-2007, 01:12 PM

Nope. I always wait for Conclave. Although I really want to see ep5 already...

Yukimura

Wed, 08-08-2007, 01:41 PM

Honestly, is it so wrong for a high school girl to not want to be touched where people don't normally touch, much less have sex with a boyfriend she's hardly been with? Itou's not even some great boyfriend, smooth talker, or even a conversation starter. I don't see what she sees in him, much less consider doing something dramatic like that for a teenage girl.

Of course not, but on that same token is it so wrong for a high school guy to want to touch a girl where he normally wouldn't get to touch her, or even have sex with her despite the fact that he barely knows her?

Itou wants to have sex and do ecchi stuff. He only sought a relationship as a means to that end. He doesn't care about feelings or mood or stuff like that, and I don't think it's reasonable to say that he should care beyond as a means to an end. Katsura wants to be swept off her feet by a dashing Prince Charming and be gently embraced in a romantic environment after several prerequisites have been met. She doesn't seem to be interested in being touched and I don't think it's reasonable to say she ought to be interested.

Neither is wrong for wanting what they want, but someone will have to compromise if either of them is going to get what they want from eachother. From what we've seen I suspect Itou is more motivated to take actions that might lead to sex then Katsura is motivated to take actions that might lead to romance, but at least they are both trying. What throws a wrench in the works is the fact that Itou's desire for sex doesn't hinge as much on Katsura specifically, and Sekai is shaping up to be a much more responsive partner. To be fully realistic, Katsura's desire for romance shouldn't necessarily hinge on Itou either, but the whole 'mysterious train watcher' element is part of the romance and thus he does fit more into her scenario then she does into his. There's also the fact that there's not really any other viable males in the story anyway.

EDIT @Below: It's only 12 eps.

Board of Command

Wed, 08-08-2007, 01:55 PM

Well anyway, I downloaded the anon releases and they're not that great. Watchable, but not great.

I'll try not to spoil since most of you aren't up to ep 6 yet. There has been enormous developments in the next two episodes. Maybe a little too much if you ask me. I don't know how many episodes this series is slated for, but at this rate they're going to cover a lot of material...

RyougaZell

Wed, 08-08-2007, 04:28 PM

Heck... now I want to see what happens next even more...
I dont care about Katsura... Sekai should get him, even if he is an idiot.

Yukimura

Tue, 08-14-2007, 10:20 PM

School Days 5 & 6 are out by [Anonymous] The subs are passable, though they obviously haven't been QC'd. Ep 5's subs are all 15 seconds late after the OP so I would recommend downloading the ass and using an editor to shift them back. I did it with 0 previous timing experience using Aegisubs.

School Days - 05 - [Anonymous] (http://tracker.anirena.com/download.php?id=1560)
Proper ep 5 sub file (http://just.blowmebit.ch/Anonymous_-_School_Days_-_05-Shifted.ass)

Note: The ep 5 file I've provided has it's own mistimed soft subs included, use mkvtoolnix to replace that sub file with the one I've provided to get properly timed subs for this particular file. (Start mkvtoolnix->Add the mkv and the sub file with the add button->un check the SSA that's in the little box below the files you added (there will be 4 things, a video stream, an audio stream, an SSA subtitle and an ASS subtitle)-> change the name of the output file so you don't overwrite the original mkv-> hit start muxing-> watch).

School Days - 06 - [Anonymous] (http://tracker.anirena.com/download.php?id=1640)

Everon

Tue, 08-14-2007, 11:15 PM

I'm pretty sure that the sub file for 5 isn't mistimed (I used the saiyaman raw).

Yukimura:

Neither is wrong for wanting what they want, but someone will have to compromise if either of them is going to get what they want from eachother. From what we've seen I suspect Itou is more motivated to take actions that might lead to sex then Katsura is motivated to take actions that might lead to romance, but at least they are both trying. What throws a wrench in the works is the fact that Itou's desire for sex doesn't hinge as much on Katsura specifically, and Sekai is shaping up to be a much more responsive partner. To be fully realistic, Katsura's desire for romance shouldn't necessarily hinge on Itou either, but the whole 'mysterious train watcher' element is part of the romance and thus he does fit more into her scenario then she does into his. There's also the fact that there's not really any other viable males in the story anyway.

I know there isn't anything wrong about wanting to have a relationship purely for sex, but after watching episode 6, I think Itou is certainly turning into a terrible person. He doesn't end his relationship with Katsura and is making things worse for everyone. Watching Katsura fall more in love with Itou is terrible.

I guess you could argue that he's inexperienced in breakups, but I feel like he's hoping that Katsura will get "in the mood."

shinta|hikari

Wed, 08-15-2007, 12:45 AM

I dont think he is trying to two-time them, but rather, is just too much of a coward to take responsibility for his actions. He is a terrible person, but not as terrible as wanting to play both girls. This can be seen in how coldly he acts towards Katsura. Though guilt has of course some influence on how he acts, I think its more because he simply likes Sekai more than Katsura, and has simply lost interest in Katsura.

EDIT: I TAKE IT ALL BACK. ITOU IS THE SCUM OF THE EARTH. HE DESERVES TO BE TORTURED THEN MAIMED. HE IS ON PAR WITH SUZAKU AND ROSSIU, OR EVEN WORST.

Yukimura

Wed, 08-15-2007, 09:00 AM

Lol @ shinta|hikari...you watched 5 & 6 then edited didn't you. I had a similar reaction, though I wouldn't put him at Rossiu/Suzaku level because he seems to be honestly ignorant of how the consequences of his actions instead of understanding them and choosing to act anyway.

One person no one has really mentioned yet is Sekai. She's not completely clean in this thing either. She's been rationalizing her relationship and behavior with Makoto the whole time and keeps giving token resistance and trying to put all the blame on Makoto for giving in to her own desires. I'm glad she at least feels some guilt unlike despicable Itou, but she's acting like she can't just tell Katsura what's going on herself. Hopefully before she discovers that Katsura knows Sekai will resolve herself to come forward to her. Even though it would be meaningless to Katsura it would show that Sekai has a stronger character then what she's displayed so far.

And poor Katsura is just the perfect little anime girlfriend in love. It's so sad watching her pine more and more over Makoto, who couldn't care less about her. If this thing were to go down properly she'd be the one getting hurt the most, since the other two at least want each other.

Everon

Wed, 08-15-2007, 09:02 PM

Its hard to blame Sekai, when she seems the most confused about the situation. It feels more important that Itou stops his relationship with Katsura. If Sekai confesses to Katsura first, she might think that Sekai tempted Itou. Commence cat-fight.

shinta|hikari

Wed, 08-15-2007, 09:11 PM

Yukimura

Wed, 08-15-2007, 10:53 PM

I'd only give Sekai a year max or more likely just probation. She already knew that Makoto liked her, and by ep 3 she knew he didn't really like Katsura. I see no value in her denying herself just b/c Makoto is in a relationship knowing that he's not really committed to it.

In legal jargon I guess she'd be guilty of being an accomplice/accessory to Makoto's 'crime' of hurting Katsura's feelings. But realistically, even if Sekai was ice cold to him I doubt he'd have warmed up to Katsura, they're just not compatible. Their relationship was like a poorly designed building from the start so I don't see much of a point in punishing Sekai for helping to knock down building before it collapsed on it's own.

shinta|hikari

Wed, 08-15-2007, 11:53 PM

Still, just because something is going to happen anyway doesnt mean you are free from responsibility for helping it happen. I do understand your point though, but if it had to fall anyway, they should have cleared it up with Katsura first, instead of sneaking while screwing around.

oyabun

Thu, 08-16-2007, 09:07 AM

Hmm... You guys are mean to sekai. Ill give her an easy punishment. Sekai is to be my slave as long as I'm alive. She will be punished and be happy at the same time. AS for itou, the punishment is to cut his dick and chain him to watch porn forever. :D

Board of Command

Thu, 08-16-2007, 11:54 AM

Episode 7 conclusions:

Katsura: -10 for being a complete retard
Setsuna: +5 for being an creepy loli bitch
Sekai: -5 for not really doing anything
Itou: -100 for having fewer balls than a typical female

Everon

Thu, 08-16-2007, 02:04 PM

speed sub, dunno quality

[m33w] School Days 07 (http://bt.edwardk.info/groups/m.3.3.w/%5Bm.3.3.w%5DSchool_Days_7_-_Festival_Eve.avi.torrent)

So painful to watch...and yet I can't look away.

Yukimura

Thu, 08-16-2007, 11:09 PM

Lol It's about time two girls stormed out of Makoto's room within minutes of each other with him left standing there looking weird. But what the hell is going on...the girls roles have gone flip flop. Katsura shows more boldness with every action she takes and now Sekai is the weak and timid one. Maybe Makoto's interest just saps girls of their self-respect.

A theme I'm noticing a lot recently is people blaming the wrong person for their relationship problems. The lesbian girl (tall lanky athletic girl with short spiky hair = lesbian girl) from Sekai's class had jumped all over Katsura for getting ooggled. The bitchy queen bee in Katsura's class seems to like blaming everything on her (apparently including the fact that Makoto doesn't notice /care about her). Katsura seems to blame Makoto's unfaithful actions on Sekai, which is actually somewhat reasonable. However she doesn't seem willing to toss some blame at Makoto by calling him out, which plunges her respectability even further into into the red. The excellence at the end of the ep brought her up some though.

kenren

Fri, 08-17-2007, 08:07 AM

I just finished episode 5 and.. Itou sucks.
Just when Katsura opened up to him, he had to fall for Sekai.
Katsura is definitely better off without him :(

shinta|hikari

Fri, 08-17-2007, 10:31 AM

Now everyone knows the reason behind my edit.

RyougaZell

Fri, 08-17-2007, 09:21 PM

Damn it... I can't discuss an ep here because everybody is seeing speedsubs =P

Itou is an idiot, but since I prefer Sekai over Katsura ep 5 was good for me :P

Darth Zin

Sat, 08-18-2007, 07:32 PM

Triangles are always killers, on one side Itou has Unrequited love and on the other he has his desired women. But Itou is a punk, Sekai is the childhood friend but she should have made the move alot earlier or else it wouldn't have ended up her leaving Itou hints trying to sway Itou from Katsura deep in the relationship. But i think there will be some good to Sekai stealing Itou, might build Katura's feelings :)

Board of Command

Sat, 08-18-2007, 08:05 PM

I don't think Sekai is his childhood friend. They first met on the first day of class.

shinta|hikari

Sat, 08-18-2007, 10:49 PM

Yep. If they didnt sit next to each other, they probably wouldnt even have cared a bit if the other died in a horrid plane crash.

RyougaZell

Sun, 08-19-2007, 12:59 AM

Watched several of the games endings yesterday.
Now I hate Katsura even more =P

shinta|hikari

Mon, 08-20-2007, 10:34 PM

Where did you watch the games endings?

Yukimura

Mon, 08-20-2007, 11:20 PM

Please, please, PLEASE don't talk about or mention any of the game endings here if you see them. I finally managed to get the bits and pieces I saw on wikipedia out of my head and I really hope they never come back until after I've seen what they do with the anime.

RyougaZell

Mon, 08-20-2007, 11:41 PM

Where did you watch the games endings?

Here is the torrent:
http://zerotracker.com/download/HTTP/98656/%5BKAI%5DSchool-Days%20Hentai-Pics%20%5B350D809E%5D.rar.torrent

About 2500 screenshots out of the 70minutes of animation of the game

Warning: H-content.

Yukimura

Wed, 08-22-2007, 07:03 PM

School Days - 08 - [m.3.3.w] (http://m.3.3.w.fansub-torrents.com/%5Bm.3.3.w%5DSchool_Days_8_-_School_Festival.avi.torrent)

Lol Makoto's got them in a bidding war now. On the one hand he's a giant douche...but on the other hand, having two girls falling over themselves trying to be with him when he KNOWS he's a giant douche....seems pretty pimp to me.

Koyuki

Sat, 08-25-2007, 01:25 PM

Seems like he doesn't care who he picks as long as he gets to dip it. That's why he chose Sekai, cause it's was a lot of work. Now that Katsura has changed her mind he might not break up.

I kinda hate Itou, but I also hate the girls for being so stupid.

kenren

Mon, 08-27-2007, 09:14 AM

Conclave released episode 6.
It's just sad for Katsura...again, Itou sucks

Yukimura

Mon, 08-27-2007, 10:00 AM

School Days - 06 - [Conclave] (http://a.scarywater.net/conclave/%5BConclave%5D_School_Days_-_06_%5B18132AF8%5D.avi.torrent)

Lol, I can't even remember what happened in this episode, I guess the pacing is just too quick, that or I watch too much anime.

RyougaZell

Tue, 08-28-2007, 12:18 AM

Itou needs to be a man and dump Katsura already.... Sekai is better =P

Yukimura

Wed, 08-29-2007, 03:27 PM

School Days - 09 - [m.3.3.w] (http://m.3.3.w.fansub-torrents.com/%5Bm.3.3.w%5DSchool_Days_9_-_After_Evening_Festival.avi.torrent)

The gift that keeps on giving you reasons to hate it.

Yukimura

Wed, 09-05-2007, 12:34 AM

School Days - 10 - RAW (http://bt.saiyaman.info/download.php?id=5219&file=%5BS%5EM%5D+School+Days+10+RAW.avi.torrent)
School Days - 10 ShitSubs (http://tracker.anirena.com/download.php?id=1957)

These are extremely poor one man subs that simply convey the gist of what goes on along with lots of (fairly humorous) tl commentary and a lot of swearing.

I only post them here because they made me laugh so hard, and because this episode takes whatever 'it' is that School Days has to a whole new level and I want you all to share it. I think every single named girl in the show cried in this ep save one.

MFauli

Wed, 09-05-2007, 01:27 AM

Waiting for better sub, just wanted to say:

If Itou wasnt an idiot, he could have 4-5 pussies all at once. Sekai loves him, Katsura now loves him, while liking Sekai as well, his old school friend loves him and wants him no matter what, the little freak girl loves him...if he made a bit of an effort, he couuld get all of them along without having to keep it a secret.

Yukimura

Wed, 09-05-2007, 07:15 AM

@MFauli...it's funny that you should say that...

School Days - 10 - [m.3.3.w] (http://m.3.3.w.fansub-torrents.com/%5Bm.3.3.w%5DSchool_Days_10_-_Heart_and_Body_%5BEE7ED012%5D.avi.torrent)

Much more proper.

MFauli

Wed, 09-05-2007, 06:34 PM

Ha, awsome, another one down :P

But correct me if im wrong: Katsura is still "untouched" by Itou, isnt she?
So Itou got the pussies of Sekai, Kato and Kiyora.
Wah, my little hentai-heart feels warm inside ^^

Yukimura

Wed, 09-05-2007, 09:01 PM

I love how every girl he's hooked up with has tried to set some kind of boundary or condition for the action but Itou NEVER satisfies the condition or respects the boundary. And they STILL come crawling back. Also the Kiyora sex just came totally out of left field. At first I figured she had a Yuri-crush on Sekai and had kissed Itou because that was the closest she could get to Sekai's lips. Now there's evidence that she either has such a huge crush on Sekai that she'd give it up to Itou if it might get him to make her happy...or she wanted Itou all along but wanted Sekai to be happy more (until a situation came along where she might get both).

And I feel terrible for the poor dyke-girl (tall girl with the short hair) that had sex with the teacher in the little room. What did she ever do to deserve anything?

Board of Command

Wed, 09-05-2007, 09:39 PM

Katsura about to stab Sekai...

OMG CAN'T WATCH

shinta|hikari

Wed, 09-05-2007, 09:53 PM

I wonder how many times I can kill Itou before I am satiated. I am horribly disappointed at Kiyora. Sekai has started to suck as well. This show HAS to end with Itou dying a terrible death, in the hands of all those he has screwed over (literally and figuratively).

Board of Command

Wed, 09-05-2007, 11:41 PM

Yukimura

Wed, 09-12-2007, 07:42 AM

School Days - 11 - [m.3.3.w] (http://m.3.3.w.fansub-torrents.com/%5Bm.3.3.w%5DSchool_Days_11_-_Everyone%27s_Makoto_%5B4E3178C1%5D.avi.torrent)

Gotta get that harem in line.

animus

Wed, 09-12-2007, 11:58 AM

Wow, I just powered through a couple of episodes, and I have to say this series really blows it hard, well mainly just because Itou is alive. I hope all them girls swarm him at the end, and impale him at the same time with huge lances.

90% of this stuff doesn't even make any sense. Katsura fucking Kuroda? That makes absolutely no sense. Along with the fact that Kuroda keeps going after his best friend's girlfriend's a raging piss off.

Everything's just so incoherent. Like in 11, Itou and the girl that likes Kuroda? That came totally out of nowhere. And then at the end, what the hell happened? This is seriously like a raging pit of random garbage thrown together.

At the beginning it was fine, since Itou had a teeny bit of decency about not trying to make Katsura sad, but now he's just going through like every single girl alive with no worry. Then he hears the news of Sekai's possible pregnancy, and decides to later meet up with Katsura because he has no other plans? My head really hurts.

Board of Command

Wed, 09-12-2007, 06:31 PM

This episode gave me the creeps.

brb...gotta go wash out my eyes.

Yukimura

Wed, 09-12-2007, 09:05 PM

Wow, it's all coming full circle, originally the girls who seemed like they should have some self-respect acted like they had none, and Kotonoa, who seemed like she shouldn't, got more and more. Now, after Itou has fucked pretty much every named character except the tall lesbian-looking girl (who only aims for teachers apparently) the girls have finally managed to find some self-respect, or in the case of Katsura, realize that they really have none and are completely defined by the people around them.

I would agree that Itou doesn't deserve anyone, but it's clear that Kotonoha is completely lost and is lacks the mentally fortitude to not be with Itou. So for her sake she has to be with him. I don't think she actually cares about what he does on the side as long as he's with her some of the time, and with any luck he'll either a) have such a bad rep that no other girl will talk to him or b) have actually learned something from being left high and dry by his harem but stuck with by a crazy Kotonoha and he'll treat her right......*pause for lols*

@animus: I suspect that the more random sex scenes (Kuroda's girl and the Trio) is just leftovers from the anime makers trying poorly to fit as many different scenarios from the game into the anime at the same time.

Board of Command

Wed, 09-12-2007, 09:41 PM

@animus: I suspect that the more random sex scenes (Kuroda's girl and the Trio) is just leftovers from the anime makers trying poorly to fit as many different scenarios from the game into the anime at the same time.
That's exactly what it was. First it was Kato, then Setsuna, then everybody else. Why? Because Itou is simply a popular dude for some unknown reason.

Typical hentai scenario right there. In fact, this episode felt like a hentai series with the sex scenes removed. Maybe that's why it was so disjoint and random.

shinta|hikari

Thu, 09-13-2007, 02:27 AM

Still, you have to admit that pretty much no other anime has chosen to go this path, and seriously try to make every viewer the main character's enemy. If that is their goal, they have succeeded magnificently.

MFauli

Thu, 09-13-2007, 04:48 AM

Lol, why do all of you hate Itou ^^
He´s making any man´s wishes come true :P

Really, the beginning of ep 11 came out of the blue...another girl on the check list. And lol, then he had a foursome with the trio-girls. XD
And now he goes after Katsura again, when Sekai is already pregnant.
From here on it could only get better if another girl got pregnant from Itou.

oyabun

Thu, 09-13-2007, 05:05 AM

setsuna will probably kill sekai's friend (the girl at the beginning) if she knew the "affair". Too bad Setsuna was too slow to fuck itou.

shinta|hikari

Thu, 09-13-2007, 05:06 AM

oyabun

Thu, 09-13-2007, 05:13 AM

HMM... DId she? Did it happened before she leave? I guess..

shinta|hikari

Thu, 09-13-2007, 05:16 AM

She asked Makoto to promise to be loyal to Sekai, and if he does, she will have sex with him. We all know what Makoto would answer to that. Besides, Setsuna wont just leave without Makoto "convincing" her that Sekai will be fine.

MFauli

Thu, 09-13-2007, 06:14 AM

@Mfauli - Is that sarcasm?

Even if you do believe that what he is doing is great, you should at least have problems with the fact that he is a disgusting creep despite of (well actually because of) it.

In short, he is an idiot with no balls, yet he gets laid like crazy. That is enough for any man to hate him.

EDIT: didnt setsuna fuck itou? I thought she did.

Of course he´s an idiot. If he was a bit smarter, he could get several girls without creating all the sadness and such.
Im not a fan of "romantic" animes, so im really enjoying what´s going on in this series :P

shinta|hikari

Thu, 09-13-2007, 06:27 AM

I dont get what not being a fan of "romantic" animes has to do with you enjoying this series, but okay...

animus

Thu, 09-13-2007, 08:00 AM

How do you enjoy something as incoherent and random as this? Stuff just doesn't piece together and it makes no sense. Sure if it was a real fuckfest hentai, atleast they have reasons and explanations for some of the sex. Here? No way in hell. Some of this stuff is so left-field it's like getting hit in the nuts.

Yukimura

Thu, 09-13-2007, 08:55 AM

I enjoy this so much because a lot of the underlying issues that it brings up are realistic. There are girls that act like Kotonoha and Sekai in dealing with guys like Makoto in real life, and it's terrible, but it's rarely addressed in media. The anime takes it to extremes of course (very few people have as little self-respect as Kotonoha), but still, just b/c Makoto is an asshole doesn't mean he won't get laid if a girl is convinced she wants him.

That being said the random sex with Hikari and the 4-way (when do you ever get to see even an implied 4-way outside of hentai?) brought the stretch pretty much to the breaking point for me, since they were so casual and Makoto doesn't seem the type to be able to draw in girls for casual sex. But Sekai, Kotonoha, Otome, and I suspect Kiyora too, were all harboring genuine feelings for him (at least the person they thought he was) and they we're willing to sleep with him in the hopes of changing him to be what they wanted. And, true to life, it didn't work for any of them, and finally they all realized that they couldn't change him and shouldn't accept him as he was in the hopes that they could. Except for poor Katsura who just doesn't have the ego to be alone. The show is a tragedy and while it could have been made better by leaving things out, the elements that make it good for me are the exposition of the consequences of the ridiculous thing these girls all did for a guy who obviously should have been left alone.

oyabun

Thu, 09-13-2007, 09:41 AM

He's not a playboy in the first place. Even the girls at the hallway when Itou passed by after everyone heard about the prenancy issue said that he has a dull face, he doesn't have unique qualities except being kind.. I really don't why "girls" likes him so much..

shinta|hikari

Thu, 09-13-2007, 11:08 AM

Ah, that "dull" was a mistranslation. What they meant by "otonashii kao" in this case was a kind or "quiet" face, ones that suit a nice and quiet guy, not a freaking sex maniac.

I havent heard them directly say that Itou is handsome, but there has been an instance when someone (I forget who exactly) said that he is quite popular with girls despite "how he looks". Im not sure what this really means, but it may be that he is quite good looking, but isnt really the cool playboy model type.

Board of Command

Thu, 09-13-2007, 05:17 PM

I miss the time when it was still just Katsura and Sekai. It was actually good. Very rarely is the first episode the best in a series....

shinta|hikari

Thu, 09-13-2007, 07:56 PM

I disagree. There are quite a number of series that have episode number 1 as the best. I wouldnt say that there is a lot, but they arent as rare as you think. A few examples off the top of my head are Nodame Cantabile (though thats debatable), Futakoi Alternative, and this one.

kenren

Sat, 09-15-2007, 11:11 PM

Conclave Episode 7.avi (http://a.scarywater.net/conclave/)

Itou still sucks for not being straightforward..same goes for Sekai. -_-

Ryllharu

Tue, 09-18-2007, 10:40 PM

Well, something bad has happened in the world of anime.

TV Kanagawa, who airs School Days, did not show episode 12, and four more stations canceled their airing. They showed nature scenery instead. Speculation has gone far and wide, most stem from the story of a girl who killed her father the day before, who was coincidentally a police officer. School Days' final episode was quite probably very violent, and we may not see it at all until the dvd comes out.

Worse still, various sites have begun to speculate that Higurashi no Naku Koro ni - Kai may receive the same treatment shortly.

Read more about it here (http://randomc.animeblogger.net/2007/09/18/random-musings-so-much-for-school-days/).
The real world incident blamed for this, here (http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/national/news/20070918p2a00m0na006000c.html).

EDIT: Another news source in Japan has confirmed the ax murder the reason for the cancellations/postponements. One station may still air it fairly uncensored, as they have shown R-15 rated series in the past.

animus

Tue, 09-18-2007, 11:04 PM

That's pretty crazy. Whenever I picture Japan, it's pretty peaceful, though even with Yakuza this seems a bit violent. Where did she get the ax anyways? It's not a likely household item.

Yukimura

Tue, 09-18-2007, 11:17 PM

Noooooooooooooooooo! I need to know what happens! I don't want to read all the game endings until I've seen how this turns out. I almost hope they give that little girl a stiffer sentance for not only murdering someone, but disturbing the peace on such a huge level. Also wtf is wrong with Japanese TV stations?

If some girl kills her dad what does that have to do with airing an anime (even if it is violent)? If the episode is unaired it can't possible have caused the problem, and no matter how bloody and gruesome it is, the real girl killing her real father in the real world, which I'm sure is all over the news, should be considered much worse.

Board of Command

Tue, 09-18-2007, 11:59 PM

I simply can't picture an overly-violent School Days. What can possibly happen? Katsura "almost" killed Sekai in episode 10. That's it. What more can there be?

animus

Wed, 09-19-2007, 12:08 AM

Everyone kills Itou?

Board of Command

Wed, 09-19-2007, 07:23 AM

Actually, that could work. A lot like Night Shift Nurses' ending...

Yukimura

Wed, 09-19-2007, 11:15 AM

Okay, I just saw a raw show up on tokyotosho so at least one network decided to show it anyway.

RyougaZell

Thu, 09-20-2007, 08:32 PM

Oh yeah... that idiotic girl decided to kill her dad because she watches anime...

Idiotic censorship....

Yukimura

Tue, 09-25-2007, 04:16 PM

School Days News (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2007-09-25/preempted-school-days-episode-to-show-at-tokyo-event)

Turns out the raw that was posted was fake, and all the broadcast networks dropped it. If the satellite people don't come through it'll be February before we even have a chance to find out how they ended it...

On the bright side, maybe Conclave will have caught up by then.

RyougaZell

Wed, 09-26-2007, 12:19 AM

Well... I hope AT-X decides to air...

That raw you mention Yuki must have been the NICE BOAT!

Oh yeah... Xenoglossia Ep 24 made me LOL at the current irony... (nice boats, girls with axes and lots of blood)

RyougaZell

Thu, 09-27-2007, 09:00 AM

Well... this isn't a double post.
New info... AT-X will air the last episode :D

The official Japanese sites for the School Days anime series and the AT-X anime satellite channel have announced that AT-X will run the 12th and last episode on Thursday at 9:30 p.m. JST and repeat next Tuesday morning at 12:30 a.m. Those will be the first public showings of this reportedly violent episode, since all over-the-air broadcasters preempted it after an axe murder was allegedly committed by a schoolgirl in Kyoto, Japan last week. School Days normally runs on those days at 10:30 a.m. and 2:30 p.m. during the daytime, but AT-X will repeat the 11th episode in those timeslots instead.

Overflow, the game label of the developer Stack and the creator of the original School Days game, has scheduled the two announced preview screenings of the episode in the Akihabara shopping district of Tokyo on Thursday at 10:00 p.m. (a half hour after the AT-X premiere) and 10:45 p.m. The showings will be held in the Tokyo Anime Center's Akiba 3D Theater on the Akihabara UDX building's fourth floor. Overflow has also changed its admission requirements; attendees must bring an identification card as well as either the School Days or Summer Days PC game, but the game no longer has to be unopened as previously announced.

In a separate development, Tokai TV will continue to preempt Higurashi no Naku Koro Ni Kai, another late-night anime television series based on a mature-audience game with schoolgirls, after already preempting the September 20 airing. After the alleged axe murder, other stations had decided to continue airing this series with a shot of a bloody cleaver replaced in the opening animation sequence.

Source: Moon Phase

Update: Replaced "adult" with "mature-audience" in description of the original Higurashi no Naku Koroni game

Source: ANN (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2007-09-26/last-school-days-episode's-1st-run-to-be-on-satellite)

Styles

Thu, 09-27-2007, 03:39 PM

Kinda reminds me of what happened after the whole Justin and Janet Super Bowl thing here in the states.

animus

Thu, 09-27-2007, 05:59 PM

School Days Episode 12 [Final] - m33w (http://m.3.3.w.fansub-torrents.com/%5Bm.3.3.w%5DSchool_Days_12_-_%5BFinal%5D_%5B2EFB0EF8%5D.avi.torrent)

Dunno if this is the real thing or another nice boat thriller.

RyougaZell

Thu, 09-27-2007, 06:22 PM

Its real... AT-X aired it today.
*downloads*

EDIT:

According to Baka Wolf (the page that hosts direct download of m.3.3.w releases) the episode was censored for TV...

I wonder if DVD will get the un-censored ep...

EDIT2:
Downloaded in 3 minutes...
Won't watch for another 3 hours... damn

Board of Command

Thu, 09-27-2007, 08:19 PM

What a fucked up ending...wowowowowow

Yukimura

Thu, 09-27-2007, 08:51 PM

O...M....F...G....

I can totally understand why they wouldn't play this now...

Preliminary thoughts, while the scene that you should all know I'm talking about was excellent it looked like it was either edited for content or just really poorly animated from the beginning. The reactions didn't make any sense. Sitll, the follow up to that was fantabulously creepy and will haunt my dreams for at least a week.

sorry............................................. ......................................
.................................................. .........................................
.................................................. .........................................
.................................................. .........................................
Goodbye

animus

Thu, 09-27-2007, 08:51 PM

I'd have killed him too. Too bad the whole series was just so unrealistic after the first 2 or 3 episodes that I didn't care for it much. But yeah, that was real fucked up.

RyougaZell

Thu, 09-27-2007, 09:06 PM

Katsura is one crazy bitch... OMFG!

what an ending...

I wanted Katsura to die =(

Oh well... will have to find the game and get the endings where she is killed...

Death scenes where very faithful to the game...

Ryllharu

Thu, 09-27-2007, 09:14 PM

Makoto definitely deserved to die. More than anyone else, yes, even emo-Shinji in Evangelion.

He turned innocent, pure, tragically naive, overly romantic Kotonoha into...that.

I and surely many others were craving his blood, but to what Makoto's twisted version of Kotonoha became to do that to Sekai...I think I'll probably end up with nightmares tonight. I've got this really awful image stuck in my head. The camera is coming out of her wound, but the only image I see in my head is from the outside.

RyougaZell

Thu, 09-27-2007, 09:31 PM

Oh yeah...
I definitely do not want to sleep tonight...

I just so wanted her boat to explode...

Yukimura

Thu, 09-27-2007, 10:08 PM

If it's any consolation I don't think that boat was ever coming back to shore.

Some consolation pics, in case you weren't scared enough.
Sekai!? (http://just.blowmebit.ch/screencaps/scary_Sekai.png)
WTF?! (http://just.blowmebit.ch/screencaps/scary_sekai2.png)

Scary (http://just.blowmebit.ch/screencaps/scary_Katsura.png)
Just Plain Evil (http://just.blowmebit.ch/screencaps/evil_Katsura.png)

EDIT @ Below, should be fixed.

animus

Thu, 09-27-2007, 10:19 PM

Your 2nd and 4th pictures are the same one.

Board of Command

Thu, 09-27-2007, 11:35 PM

I can't believe this series went from the "first episode" to the "last episode". There was so much promise in the beginning but all we got in the end was a freak show starring psychotic girls. I feel robbed.

RyougaZell

Thu, 09-27-2007, 11:42 PM

Well duh... the hype of School Days was thanks to they psychotic 3 endings out of 21 the game had... and almost all the game-fans wanted the series to have one of the bloody endings.

oyabun

Fri, 09-28-2007, 12:46 AM

Itou was an asshole till the end.. wow.. Talk about consistency..Even kissed infront of Sekai..

shinta|hikari

Fri, 09-28-2007, 01:57 AM

Amazing ending, definitely one of the best I have ever seen. I still have qualms about how the story proceeded, but I guess they needed to make Makoto look like worthless scum to pull this one off. I just think that the blood should have been red, but the rest of it was just awesome. Even with my almost unbelievable resistance to such violence, I actually felt a tad uneasy after watching this.

Makoto's reaction was priceless. I just wish I had been the one to do it.

Sekai getting killed was too bad, but thats her fault for not drawing first.

I changed my view of Kotonoha. Psychotic girls rock, too bad she fell in love with the worst guy.

Loved the scene with the text message on the phone, I just knew that was gonna happen, though the message at the end I thought up was "Look behind you", but I guess "sayonara" fits better.

I NOW think this show should be taken as it is, and should not be rated merely on the fact that it betrayed expectations. While I do agree they could have done a completely different and potentially amazing series with the premise and characters, this series, because of its ending, is good and unique in itself.

Literally, one of the best scenes played out in anime IMHO. Very few can affect people like this. If they made this a bit longer, the nonsensical stuff near the end would have made a lot more sense, and this show could have become much better.

RyougaZell

Fri, 09-28-2007, 09:12 AM

And as expected I kept dreaming about this episode yesterday night... fuck!!

I knew Sekai couldn't live after killing Makoto (worthless idiot)... but I wanted them to kill each other... not Katsura escaping with Makoto's head...

LOL... it would not really help, but an ep where Sekai's body was found at the school would be nice... Hikari and Otome could go looking for Makoto to tell him and found the beheaded body... then the police would find crazy-Katsura with Makoto's head, arrest her and think she killed both :P.
Yes... I'm rambling... only thing I didn't like of this ending was Katsura living.

oyabun

Fri, 09-28-2007, 09:24 AM

Why not? Katsura is the most innocent girl in Itou's circle of fun. She was really a nice girl until Itou fucked her up.. Meaning ruining her life..

Yukimura

Fri, 09-28-2007, 09:56 AM

I like to think that boat was never coming back to shore and all three ended up dying. A pretty excellent outcome I'd say.

RyougaZell

Fri, 09-28-2007, 10:06 AM

Why not? Katsura is the most innocent girl in Itou's circle of fun. She was really a nice girl until Itou fucked her up.. Meaning ruining her life..

I don't like characters with a personality like hers. Extremely shy, to the extent she allows anyone to use her. Oh well.

Yuki... you may be right in that point. Although I would have like to see more finale to that.

And I miss Setsuna, even if Sekai saw her in her dream. Its not the same.

PS:
Setsuna became so famous on the original School Days game that a 'sequel' or rather spin-off called Summer Days was released focusing on her. Sekai and Katsura were secondary characters there.

oyabun

Fri, 09-28-2007, 10:53 AM

Is there a translation for the game?

RyougaZell

Fri, 09-28-2007, 11:04 AM

I haven't found one.
But several pages ago I posted a torrent with almost all CG from the game... H and Blood included.

Yukimura

Fri, 09-28-2007, 11:13 AM

Summer Days was apparently not a particularly well made game and got bad reviews in Japan. I know there's no patch for it, and don't think there's one for School Days either.

Also it seems the final episode AT-X aired was in fact edited, other than the obvious red->black blood they apparently added or replaced material with flash backs and removed some of the sound effects, hopefully this is the reason the the Itou and Sekai scenes seemed so choppy. When it makes it to DVD I'll definately get it to experience Makoto get owned in it's original glory.

RyougaZell

Fri, 09-28-2007, 12:26 PM

Summer Days wasn't popular because the game developer fucked up.
They released about 4 or 5 patches, and one was as big as 1GB.

And yeah... no english patch for either. Nor any group that is at least trying to do so (remember the Kanon group started almost 4 years ago and the Fate group took about 3 years to release theirs)

shinta|hikari

Fri, 09-28-2007, 08:03 PM

So some scenes were cut? I really have to see the original one then.

Ryllharu

Fri, 09-28-2007, 08:55 PM

More than just the scene of Sekai murdering Makoto in full stabby stab glory, there were also supposedly sound effects in the scene where Kotonoha...examines Sekai.

RyougaZell

Fri, 09-28-2007, 09:03 PM

Argh...don't remind me... that scene gives me the creeps...
I hated Katsura before that... now I despise her...

oyabun

Fri, 09-28-2007, 11:19 PM

Aw you don't like psychotic obsessive lover slaves? :D

MFauli

Sat, 09-29-2007, 06:00 PM

Oookay, wtf....>_<

I admit that Itou was an asshole for fucking all the girls, BUT:

- Except for Katsura in the beginning, it´s the girls that wanted to get fucked by him.
- None of these girl cared about the fact, that Itou already had a girl friend
- Sekai helped Itou to get Katsura...dont complain afterwards, stupid bitch.
- Stupid Japanese girls get cheated on all the time but always forgive...yeah, uh, ok...

And last but not least:

No matter what, killing someone because he loves someone else is despicable.
And it was made clear in this last episode, that Itou loved Katsura. Maybe this was the beginning, but he realized that he did something wrong.
And Sekai had to accept it...but NO, stupid bitch kills him. *sigh*

But besides that:

Itou´s death was probably the most hardcore killing scene i ever saw in an anime. That was just gruesome.

Board of Command

Sat, 09-29-2007, 06:13 PM

Sekai's way better than Katsura. I don't know why he choose Katsura at the end.

animus

Sat, 09-29-2007, 06:17 PM

Maybe cause she was the one he originally chose, or she said she loved him or she let him touch her tits. Any one of those could probably be it.

Ryllharu

Sat, 09-29-2007, 07:27 PM

animus

Sat, 09-29-2007, 07:31 PM

Was she actually pregnant? Katsura's gory discovery by ripping her open says she wasnt.

MFauli

Sat, 09-29-2007, 09:37 PM

He chose Katsura at the end because all the other girls abandoned him after everyone found out he got Sekai pregnant. He didn't get back with Sekai after that because he refused to accept responsibility for Sekai's child. "Can't you just make it go away?" he said. 'Go Away,' like it's a door-to-door sales person. He's just a horny, irresponsibly little pissant of a human being, who thought he was hot shit because Sekai let him touch her. Katsura, having been driven insane earlier, knew none of this, and still wanted him back. She was the only person left he thought he could have sex with.

Makoto drove her insane, the other girls barely knew what was going on. After Sekai gave him what he wanted from Katsura in the first place, a one-sided relationship where he could still do whatever he felt like without caring about the girl. He wanted a fuck buddy. But because it was secret, he didn't have to go around with Sekai publicly. He never once defended Katsura when Otome and friends began to harass her. Never once admitted he was still seeing her, which to Katsura's knowledge, he was. He told Sekai he did so she would let him have sex with her, but didn't want to accept the responsibility of having to tell Katsura they were over. Then he pushed her over the brink when she found out what he did with Otome, she was being very badly abused by Otome's friends, and he pushed her away with Setsuna.

No one has ever been more deserving to die than Makoto. The tragedy of this series is that Sekai was killed afterwards. Katsura's insanity is a product of Makoto's actions.

Massive disagree with your complete posting.

Itou didnt want to take responsibility? Giving advise to abort the child was a first step of responsibility. The child was unwanted, and at least from his perspective only a threat to both his and Sekai´s life.
Thanks to Sekai´s incredible gruesome behavior, we´ll never find out what Itou would have done if she´d said that she want abort the child. And you know what: If Katsura´s words were true, Sekai wasnt even pregnant. So after Itou´s clear advise to abort the child, she should have realised that he simply doesnt care about HER.

One last sentence: Should Itou have dropped the girl he loved in the end (Katsura) just because Sekai was, seemingly, pregnant`? I dont think so.

And if you think someone deserves death because he has sex with more than one girl, im scared....i really am.

Yukimura

Sun, 09-30-2007, 12:05 AM

Crazed high school girls generally aren't qualified to diagnose month old pregnancies. If Sekai was pregnant she probably wasn't far enough along for the baby to be visible to the naked eye, even if cut open with a butcher's knife. Also I don't believe Katsura was processing reality properly during any part of episodes 11 & 12. Her mind was experiencing some sort of fantasy world and anytime anything occurred that didn't makes sense in that fantasy world she would try and use her flawed fantasy world explanations to prove that reality was actually like it was in her mental world. When she was with Makoto the fantasy just happened to match reality so she seemed stable but if you notice every time she's not with him it's like she's off in la la land.

Something that I've come to realize in thinking about this show is that underneath all the sex and murder there are some pretty meaningful lessons to be learned from School Days. Since the characters were all stripped of social shame and guilt we got to see what could happen if people weren't grounded in decent morals and lacked conscience.

Katsura was the ultimate expression of the danger of loving 'the idea' of someone too deeply (her final scenes demonstrated this beautifully). She became so consumed with the idea of Makoto as her boyfriend that she couldn't process reality when it conflicted with her ideal. She was so far gone that even she'd removed his head she was still convinced that he was still alive. And what's more in addition to falling into a state where she couldn't face reality she also chose to kill her rival to keep her from interfering in her and Makoto's relation ship anymore. All this because she didn't give up like a normal person would when confronted with Makoto's dubious nature.

Sekai embodied the danger loving someone too deeply when they don't love you back. Even though she could see how Makoto was mainly interested in sex she was still in love with him. And because she loved him so much despite his faults she couldn't cope with the fact that he didn't love her back. Now it's true the baby changes things a lot and was probably what pushed her so far over the edge that she would kill him over the betrayal, but still she was a victim of her own inability to detach from a love that had no hope.

And our buddy Makoto represented the danger of ignoring or avoiding the consequences of your actions. Makoto always tried to run from any difficult or uncomfortable situation but eventually one caught up with him and it killed him. His final comment (assuming it was translated properly) was a perfect expression of his character. When you run from everything difficult, death is probably the greatest gift anyone can give you, because it frees you from all the things that were chasing you. In a way, by dying, Makoto was released from his guilt and responsibility for the mess he'd created. It would have been a better punishment for him to have had to live in a bitter sexless marriage with Sekai working his ass off trying to support her and their child. However since no woman can keep her panties up in his presence I guess killing him was the only viable way to actually punish him, even if it wasn't really all that much of a punishment.

Now obviously most people will never be as extreme examples as these three were, but looking at their story would help people to see where obsessive feelings or apathetic feelings ultimately lead.

Board of Command

Sun, 09-30-2007, 10:36 AM

I'm sure Sekai really was pregnant. Like Yuki said, it has only been a week or so after she "found out" that Katsura killed her. There is no way for someone to identify the "baby" at that stage, let alone a psychotic high school girl. Her symptoms would have been mentally-induced, but I really doubt that.

Ryllharu

Sun, 09-30-2007, 07:32 PM

Massive disagree with your complete posting.

Itou didnt want to take responsibility? Giving advise to abort the child was a first step of responsibility. The child was unwanted, and at least from his perspective only a threat to both his and Sekai´s life.
Thanks to Sekai´s incredible gruesome behavior, we´ll never find out what Itou would have done if she´d said that she want abort the child. And you know what: If Katsura´s words were true, Sekai wasnt even pregnant. So after Itou´s clear advise to abort the child, she should have realised that he simply doesnt care about HER.

One last sentence: Should Itou have dropped the girl he loved in the end (Katsura) just because Sekai was, seemingly, pregnant`? I dont think so.

And if you think someone deserves death because he has sex with more than one girl, im scared....i really am.

Sekai wanted to keep the child. Makoto doesn't have any right to tell her that she should abort it because it's complicating his life and her announcement embarrassed him and made him lose face. He should have used a condom like he said he did with all the others. He fucked up, and wanted the problem gone.

Sekai was definitely pregnant. As Yuki pointed out, Kotonoha is in no condition to judge a month or two old pregnancy by vivisecting Sekai with a butcher knife, and looking inside. She was completely delusional at that point, so even if she, by some miracle, cut into the right spot of the womb, she would have ignored it. She cut off Makoto's head to keep it in a bag like he was still alive! She was utterly insane, and therefore completely unreliable. Sekai was as surprised as everyone else when she first found out. It's not like it was some twisted sick plot to keep him. If you think Katsura was a reliable source, you're a moron.

I have no problem with Makoto playing around with all the girls he meets. The problem is he initially claimed one was his girlfriend, and without telling her, said he had a new girlfriend, just so he could have sex with her (and lying to her about saying he had broken it off). After that he'd plow right into whatever other girl offered herself. He didn't deserve death for that, it was for going around everywhere, gleefully taking whatever was offered, only to deny he ever had responsibility for anything that results.

EDIT:
I went over it before in my post. He didn't love Katsura in the end. She was just the only person left who would touch him. The other girls didn't want to get near him after he impregnated Sekai, and Sekai was pregnant. Being a moron, I'm sure he didn't realize he could still have sex with her until the 3rd trimester. To Makoto, it was all about avoiding responsibility.

shinta|hikari

Sun, 09-30-2007, 07:42 PM

@Ryll - its a good thing you replied first before I brutally flamed you-know-who for being a moron. Now the hate is slowly slipping away, and I can manage to comment more objectively.

Facts:

Sekai is pregnant.

Itou is a worthless excuse for a homosapien, and thus deserves to be killed before he causes more damage.

There are some itou-level twisted AND idiotic people out in the real world as well (proven a few posts above).

MFauli

Mon, 10-01-2007, 08:25 AM

I have no problem with Makoto playing around with all the girls he meets. The problem is he initially claimed one was his girlfriend, and without telling her, said he had a new girlfriend, just so he could have sex with her (and lying to her about saying he had broken it off). After that he'd plow right into whatever other girl offered herself. He didn't deserve death for that, it was for going around everywhere, gleefully taking whatever was offered, only to deny he ever had responsibility for anything that results.
.

Everything else is major speculation, but to this one i want to answer:

Itou didnt lie because he was a moron or idiot or a*shole or whatever. Once Katsura became his girlfriend, he realized that Sekai loved him. When things got fully started with Sekai, he just didnt know what to do anymore. He had to lovely girls, and he didnt want to break anyone´s heart. You can clearly see that when rewatch the beginning of the series. Whenever there´s upcoming the question "So did you break up with Katsura?" he avoided it with "ehhh" or "you know...." or just didnt answer.
Surely, things went out of hand when Kato, Kiyora and the 3 bitches came into play. But in the end, it came down to Katsura and Sekai. All the other girls have been a non-factor for the progress of the story.

Actually, after writing this posting, i can see how death was the only possible outcome of their relationship. Well, the other one would have been, you know, the 3 libing in a 3-men-relationship ^^

But whatever, if at all, you can say that Itou couldnt decide what he wanted...but that´s only because he loved both Katsura and Sekai equally. Sekai being pregnant was then a bit of a helper to make his decision, but as you people pointed out, Sekai was pregnant only for a week or so, so we dont know what Itou would have done if there was no going back, no possibility for an abortion anymore.

Oh, and thanks for the nice words, shintahikari ^^

shinta|hikari

Mon, 10-01-2007, 08:37 AM

If youre that appreciative I guess I just have to oblige.

I agree that he loved Sekai and Katsura equally... equally 0. I am pretty sure that he didnt love anyone except his dick. I guess he should love you though.

Do you live in your own little world or something? I dont want to waste any more time preaching to you, and I dont think anyone thinks of your opinions as anything more than ****.

RyougaZell

Mon, 10-01-2007, 09:02 AM

Wohoo... I missed a lot of great discussion for being away...

Anyways...

My point of view is that Sekai *might* have gone insane because they pushed the right buttons on her... she was pregnant, she was told to abort by the father, the father didn't want anything else with her because of the baby, and he practically slapped her when he kissed Katsura in front of her. Add hormones of a a pregnant girl and ouch.

Katsura's reason for becoming crazy was... that Makoto broke with her. Some would say that it helped that Otome and her friends harrased her but... was this the fault of Sekai and idiotic-to-be-Makoto? Everyone is bullied at least once at school. Katsura was totally crazy.

Makoto didn't love anyone like stated before. Or maybe he did at some point, but when he noticed he could fuck anyone that would allow him, he simply stopped loving Sekai and Katsura. I mean... at the beginning he seem to really care... and its bullshit that everything changed because Sekai kissed him at the beginning... no... it began when Otome jumped on him. Add Setsuna offering herself... the trio wanting to experiment... and a sad Hikari... at the end he did deserve to die for being a complete coward.

PS: I still want to see an ep where Katsura's family find her hugging a head :P. And Sekai was killed at school... so someone definitely if going to find her there soon. Too bad no more eps were done. Yes... they would be useless to the plot, but its something I would like to see.

Ryllharu

Mon, 10-01-2007, 01:52 PM

None of this is any speculation. It's clear in Makoto's actions, and occasionally he outright states his present stance.

I'll admit that Makoto thought he loved Katsura in the beginning. But he wasn't willing to put any effort into their relationship. Katsura wanted to take it slow because she had this overly romantic vision of love in her head. Just when she decided that she might want to become a little more forward, Sekai stepped in. He was ignorant about what a relationship actually is, but seemed to have a crush on Katsura, little else.

Sekai gave Makoto everything he wanted. A physical relationship where he didn't have to put in any effort. That's why he kept calling it "practice." Even as Sekai asked him to tell Katsura about the two of them, he suddenly got lazy about telling Katsura and continued to call it "practice" a few more times.

Once Sekai started to get more attached to him, he started to get colder towards her. Just wanting sex. RyougaZell got it right. Everything was fairly normal until Otome jumped him. He accepted without question because he only wanted physical relationships. After Katsura went insane, she was very willing to give him that because from the show that Setsuna and he gave her, that's what she assumed she failed Makoto in. She had been warming herself up to the idea the whole time when her little world collapsed. He took her back because no one else would give him what he wanted without commitment (Sekai) or effort (anyone new).

Makoto's mistake comes from calling a physical relationship an emotional one. If you go on dates and have fuck buddies, go for it. Just don't call them girlfriends. Girlfriends require effort and compromise, not just an urge.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 10-01-2007, 06:16 PM

We should take note though, that Makoto never outright said that anyone except Katsura was his girlfriend. People usually assumed that he and Sekai were going out, which he simply let slide without denying or affirming (his dumb blank troubled/smirking look does not count as either one) it. But this attitude is simply one of irresponsibility, not in consideration for others feelings or anything of the sort. He didnt clarify what he was doing, since it was the easier thing to do.

Another reason why I hated Makoto so much is the fact that he knew that the girls were being hurt (they say so outright like Sekai, pull away from him like Otome, or go into walking coma mode like Katsura) but never felt an ounce of guilt. Katsura may be the only exception, but realizing his "love" for her in the end does not omit all of the crap he has done before, and he is likely to do to Sekai after.

If he did truly love Kotonoha, it would be an even more fitting end for him. Just when he has a chance to "settle down"and change, he gets killed for his exploits and idiocy. Ironic, and deserved, I say.

Another reason why he went back to Kotonoha was the fact that everyone realized he was a cretin, including Sekai. Unfortunately, Sekai loved him and was pregnant, thus simply cannot let him go like Otome did even with such a realization. Kotonoha was simply deluded, thinking that Makoto is a great guy from the start, probably since she knows nothing about how relationships work.

RyougaZell

Mon, 10-01-2007, 06:21 PM

Makoto fully knew that dancing with a girl in the bonfire (sp?) meant they were together. And at the end he chose Sekai over Katsura for it. True, she was giving him what Katsura hadn't... but thats not the point of this post. The point is showing that he acknowledged Sekai as his girlfriend in front of the school at that moment. Selfish as it may have been after having sex with Otome... but he did.

Alas... he is an idiot. A lucky one, but an idiot.

Board of Command

Mon, 10-01-2007, 08:42 PM

By the time of the festival dance, Itou already didn't like Sekai anymore. He didn't really acknowledge her. He just liked her more than Katsura, so he promised to dance with her. His favorite girl by that time was already Otome. They just had an "understanding" and Otome let him dance with whoever he wanted, as long as they keep their relationship secret.

MakotoOwns

Wed, 10-03-2007, 10:50 PM

shinta|hikari

Wed, 10-03-2007, 11:58 PM

How can it be the female's responsibility to avoid "players"? The fact that they are called players (which I still doubt Makoto is) means that they decieve women into getting into a relationship with them under false pretenses (like the lie that the player will be faithful to the girl, which obviously wont happen since he is a player).

So you are saying that it is the woman's fault for not being able to see through this facade? I absolutely agree that they are culpable to some extent, but the greater fault lies in the person that initiated the problem in the first place, in this case Makoto and how he went after Sekai (who consistently resisted, at least at first) even if he and Katsura were already going out.

Makoto wasn't ostracized because he didnt accept the child. He was ostracized because he is a "player" as you call it (proven by the gossip conversations that can be heard when he crossed the hall in episode 11) Indeed, this part of his character was revealed due to Sekai's declaration, but the fact that he was hated because of it is because his actions reflected his character (this includes the exposed affair with Otome, which no decent person would find good).

Any sort of proper agreement? They did have an agreement, even if its wasnt on paper. Makoto, though he never said it outright, was technically going out with Sekai (since he never denied it either, even if he knew Sekai and everyone else thought it was so). So technically, Sekai does deserve his "love and labor", since she gave her love and labor to him with the premise that it will be returned. What does Makoto do instead? He makes out with Katsura in front of the girl he made pregnant, and THEN messages her to abort the child. That is enough to make anyone snap.

If you think that all things in this world should be based on your definition of "proper agreement" (whatever that is), then you are a sick and violent (if only morally) individual.

EDIT: Oh and speaking of rights, you say that Sekai doesnt have the right to anything just because she got knocked up. Well, that is very contentious so I wont even respond to that, but I will ask you this. What gives Makoto the right to get Sekai pregnant and just throw her away like garbage when he doesnt want the child?

RyougaZell

Thu, 10-04-2007, 12:16 AM

Makoto is what's commonly called "a player." It is common knowledge that such people exist, and it is the female's responsibility to make sure she doesn't end up with a person like that. I have no remorse for a female that fails to properly evaluate the value of the person she spreads her legs for. In addition, she has no right to anything just because she got knocked up. The way governments around the world work today is disgusting, and as such that's the status quo, I understand, but it's sick and wrong. Every character in the story made mistakes, and then refused to accept the consequences for their actions. Makoto ended up ostracized for knocking up Sekai and not accepting her child, while Sekai ended up with an unwanted child. The consequences should have ended there, but instead Sekai got greedy and decided that she had the rights to somebody else's love and labor. If you believe for any reason that you deserve the wealth of any other person without any sort of proper agreement, you are a sick violent individual.

You sure you aren't someone already registered trying to back himself up ? :rolleyes:

This kind of comments are disgusting... sure, Sekai was also at fault for sleeping with him even knowing he was still with Katsura... but she has no right to make Makoto be responsible? COME ON!! So you say it is right to fuck around and leave them when pregnant because THEY allowed it to happen?

The world is like it is because thoughts like this are irresponsible... Makoto acknowledged Sekai as his girlfriend at the bonfire... and Sekai isn't Virgin Mary to get pregnant by the grace of the Holy Spirit... Makoto is the father, and as such has to be responsible... doesn't want to be with her? ok... get a fucking job and pay for all expenses the child will bring... don't take the easy way and suggest to abort. Abort is for cowards...

Sekai should not have killed Makoto... she should have castrated him...

PS: Katsura is a crazy bitch...

oyabun

Thu, 10-04-2007, 01:44 AM

You sure you aren't someone already registered trying to back himself up ? :rolleyes:

Sekai should not have killed Makoto... she should have castrated him...

PS: Katsura is a crazy bitch...

She really should have..... And katsura is one hell of a sexy bitch.

MFauli

Thu, 10-04-2007, 01:56 AM

but the greater fault lies in the person that initiated the problem in the first place, in this case Makoto and how he went after Sekai (who consistently resisted, at least at first) even if he and Katsura were already going out.

And that´s where you´re completely biased towards the girls´ point of view.
Makoto NEVER went after Sekai. He wanted Katsura, Sekai, out of the blue, helped him to get her, which was a sucess.

It should have ended here.

But not with Sekai. She decided that cannot let go of Itou, so she makes up weird reasons for training lessons and such. It was AFTER THAT, that Itou wanted more "training lessons". Then everything got out of hand.

It´s really sick how all or even the major fault is tossed towards Itou, when Sekai´s the one who started the mess. Without Sekai, Itou wouldnt have gotten into contact with Kiyora. He would have had a nice relationship with Katsura and Kato wouldnt have had a chance. Following that, the 4 bitches wouldnt have had a chance either. The result: Itou and Katsura loving each other peacefully.
But then comes Sekai. She makes Itou wanting her. Kiyora wants her best friend to be happy, so she gets involved. Itou is in between conflicts, thus getting attracted by Kato. Then things get out of hand with all the drama and the 4 bitches join the game.

In the end, Sekai´s at fault and she does a horrible crime. Whoever wants to blame Itou is just sick and a elitist feminist.

shinta|hikari

Thu, 10-04-2007, 02:21 AM

OMG, what anime were you watching you stupid fool?

Itou ASKED for Sekai's help. Obviously, she was also at fault for what happened, having given in to her emotions, but Itou was the one that practically hounded her until she slept with him.

Sekai repeatedly resisted Itou's attempts to betray Katsura, but there is only so much she can do considering she was in love with him for quite a long time. Indeed, she eventually gave in, but if Itou just listened when Sekai told him to stop (which she did numerous times), NOTHING would have happened.

Sekai did indeed start the mess (when she tried to get Itou and Katsura together), but that was not out of any malice or wrongdoing. If it werent for Sekai, Itou wouldnt even have talked to Katsura.

Itou and Katsura loving each other peacefully? Do you have blackholes instead of eyes on your skull? Itou was already discontent with the fact that Katsura wasnt letting him touch her. It doesnt take Sekai's intervention to ruin something that was doomed in the first place.

I am not biased towards a girls point of view, and I think that much is obvious to anyone with an IQ of higher than 0, or yours. You are just a crazy chauvinist that seems to pride himself in being an idiot.

MFauli

Thu, 10-04-2007, 02:42 AM

Haha, great, finally calling me a chauvinist ^^

And no, Itou didnt ask Sekai for help. At least NOT for Sekais "training lessons". It was Sekai who all of sudden got Itou to touch her, everything in the name of "training lessons".

The fact that Itou was unhappy about Katsura being shy could have either solved by Sekai telling Katsura what her boy friend desires OR she just could have let everything go downhill from here on. That way, Itou and Katsura would have broken up properly and Sekai could have started her work on Itou.

And yeah, if Sekai wasnt, Itou would have never met Katsura...and everything would have been fine. Kato would have asked Itou for the dance and they´d have become a pair.

shinta|hikari

Thu, 10-04-2007, 02:50 AM

That post was simply idiotic. Like I said before, Sekai didnt mean anything malicious or wrong when he tried to get Makoto and Katsura together. She even tried to cut of all ties with Makoto after the swimming scenario.

Sekai DID try to help Itou and Katsura get on the right track. The training sessions were a bit too much, but other than that, she gave good advice, and if Itou listened to them and hadnt run to her apartment that rainy night, maybe Itou and Katsura COULD have lived happily ever after. Still, this is merely pointless speculation, like everything you just said on the last post. The point is, with everything that HAS happened, the majority of the fault lies in Itou and his irresponsible foolishness.

You seem to want to blame Sekai no matter what, and I really dont understand why. It is obvious that your arguments are stretching the limits of human stupidity, so I am almost forced to conclude that you are a monkey that learned to type.

RyougaZell

Thu, 10-04-2007, 07:23 AM

This posts make me think MFauli and MakotoOwns are the same user...
No one else believes Makoto to be an innocent little boy seduced by the mob of women...

Even is Sekai had decided to not get involved...

Otome would have STILL gone after Makoto, since she hated Katsura and loved him since Junior High.
Setsuna would have TRIED to approach him since her best friend wasn't and she had no restrains for friendship.
Hikari would STILL be sad because the other guy didn't like her and would have ended up with Makoto.

Ryllharu

Thu, 10-04-2007, 08:11 AM

It's safe to say that almost no one in this series was innocent, except for maybe Katsura before she went batshit insane.

Makoto: Wanted a one-sided physical relationship without any responsibility. He was too stupid to know what he was supposed to do in a relationship, and got cocky when Sekai (later on, any girl) made any kind of advance on him.

Sekai: Obviously wanted Makoto. She made Setsuna switch seats with her from the beginning of the year, so she could get closer to him. Then when she saw his cellphone picture, she saw a way to ingratiate herself to him. Briefly worked behind their backs to destabilize Makoto and Katsura's relationship under the guise of improving it. She gladly accepted the idea of "training" Makoto so she could get a fleeting taste at what being his girlfriend would be like. Makoto took all the initiatives after that.

Setsuna: Liked Makoto, but was more concerned about Sekai's happiness as she knew she was leaving sooner or later. Her intentions were always in making sure Sekai would be happy, but she did betray her just once in an attempt to make Makoto do as she wished.

Otome: Kind of a bitch in general. Denying that Katsura could ever be Makoto's girlfriend (a perception Makoto aided by never admitting he formally still was) Otome did everything she could to make sure that she'd become his girlfriend, or at least have sex with him. Pride perhaps was her biggest fault.

The three bitches: Quick to follow Otome's guidance, and equally quick to go behind her back.

Hikari: Wanted the rape-pervert-idiot, but betrayed Sekai on her rebound.

The tragedy in this story is what Katsura became. The events all perpetuated by these above drove her to insanity. Makoto is perhaps the center of it all, but he didn't fall entirely on his own. He was pushed by Sekai's one moment of weakness, thinking up the "training" to get a taste of what she had given up to Katsura. After that he did it all on his own. After he begins to lead all the events, Sekai loses control and also becomes a victim, but of her own creation.

I wonder what happens when Setsuna hears about what resulted...

oyabun

Thu, 10-04-2007, 09:57 AM

She will probably try to kill Katsura if she finds her anyway.. But I guess Katsura will be dead by then

RyougaZell

Thu, 10-04-2007, 10:21 AM

Too bad Summer Days was a spinoff instead of a sequel...
Would been good to get it animated with Setsuna as main character and getting revenge... nah... wouldn't work without the other 3 characters. Like Oyabin said, Katsura most probably died alone in the sea (hopefully)

I still believe a better punishment for Makoto would have been castration...

oyabun

Thu, 10-04-2007, 10:29 AM

I still believe a better punishment for Makoto would have been castration...

I strongly agree.. Itou got off easily by dying. :mad:

I just finished watching the H scene from the original game.. I must say that Katsura is so hot in the game. She has an aura of a shy type maniac girl effect on me. And who would have taught that Itou's close guy friend(don't know his name) is a rapist. oh well same kind of people bond together..:D

MFauli

Thu, 10-04-2007, 10:30 AM

That post was simply idiotic. Like I said before, Sekai didnt mean anything malicious or wrong when he tried to get Makoto and Katsura together. She even tried to cut of all ties with Makoto after the swimming scenario.

Like Ryllharu said, she wanted to get closer to Itou from the very beginning. It was all just making use of situations to achive that goal. That Itou was an idiot from a certain point on is certainly correct. But he wasnt from the beginning. He was made into what he became by Sekai and other girls.

RyougaZell

Thu, 10-04-2007, 10:55 AM

Even without Sekai's 'practice' Makoto wanted nothing more than having sex with Katsura. This is proven when he tries to takes things to far even when Katsura didn't want to. In the end he was just an inmature kid who only wanted sex. He wasn't made this way by Sekai and the other girls... he himself was already like that.

Irony... he never did sleep with Katsura.

Yukimura

Thu, 10-04-2007, 11:00 AM

I must agree with Ryllharu and MFauli about Itou. He definately did things that he shouldn't have, but in the end no one is really without blame for the final actions of the other charaacters. If you go back to the beginning and look at the characters you can see how he changed over the course of the show in response to outside influences.

You have a Itou, a guy who knows nothing about girls but has a crush on a girl. Kotonoha, said girl, knows nothing about guys, also has a crush on him. Neither of the two knows the other has feelings for them nor do they know how to or are wiling to pursue their feelings for each other so they remain in stagnation.

Enter Sekai, a third party who also has a crush on the Itou, but she is willing to pursue it. She gets herself into a position to get closer to him but then she discovers he has feelings for someone else. Now instead of backing off and letting Makoto and his crush either find each other or not she resolves to assist him and hook him up with Kotonoha, possibly because she'd rather be his friend than be nothing to him or possibly because she just wanted to make him happy.

The problem was, Itou all hormones and porno mags, while Katsura was all shiny eyes and romance novels. At this point it becomes gray whether to start throwing blame on people, since you could argue Makoto should have known things about women or that Katsura should have known things about men. Personally I wouldn't buy those arguments for the same reasons I wouldn't expect a random high schooler I sat in front of photoshop for the first time to make anything worth being called artwork.

Either way the character changes begin when Sekai perceives that the Makoto/Kotonoha relationship she fostered is on rocky terrain and takes it upon herself to try and teach Makoto how to be a better boyfriend. We can argue she did it purely to try and help their relationship or we can argue that she did it just to be closer to Makoto, but the key point is that she once again meddled in their relationship. She tried to explain how he should act as a boyfriend but he just didn't get it and wanted to skip straight to the touching part (typical). So she decides to try and teach him the proper way to touch a girl who's tentative about it. Again we can't know her motives but we do know that she longed for Makoto in some way.

This is where the blame game really got interesting, Sekai didn't need to do this for Makoto but she chose to, therefore it's natural that she shares the blame for the consequences of her actions. And the consequences were: Makoto got a taste for touching her and became more attracted/attached to her (she was giving him what he wanted) and she got a taste for being touched by Makoto (she was trying to keep her feelings contained but I suspect she quite enjoyed the thought of his attention on her body if not his actual technique). After his 'training sessions' with Sekai, Makoto got it in his head that he could get away with just feeling up girls as long as he did it right and he didn't need to romance them or respect them. That's the example that Sekai was teaching and other than Katsura's stand-offishness that's all Makoto knew. If it hadn't been for the lessons I suspect Makoto would have continued to awkwardly try and do such things with Kotonoha, gotten rejected and eventually either he would have learned to tone it down, she would have given in and just let him do it, or one of them would have broken up with the other.

However, once the mindset shift occurs Makoto's mistakes can no longer be attributed to simple ignorance. The mindset shift happened after Makoto had already expressed his dissatisfaction with Kotonoha so one can still lay blame on him for not officially breaking up with her before pursuing Sekai but to be honest, while it may seem obvious, it's not really intuitive that ignoring someone and treating them like crap is different from actually breaking up with them. Of course this is beside the point because Makoto doesn't just avoid Kotonoha, when he's confronted he claims to still be interested which was just dishonest and it's completely his fault that she was so confused.

As bad as it is that Makoto couldn't see what was right in front of him (Kotonoha wasn't getting the implied breakup message), he was being told by outside sources (Sekai) that what he was doing wasn't right but he stubbornly refused to listen and assumed that things would work out the way he wanted them to anyway. Kotonoha suffered from a similar problem (not getting that he didn't care about her). However, I find it hard to blame Kotonoha for what amounted to lack of experience, obsession, foolishness, and blind trust. She was also being told that his actions implied it was over by people, but he kept stringing her along, unwittingly taking advantage of her trust when he thought he was just sparing her feelings (and sparing himself a scene).

Once theses elements were in place everything was basically just icing on top of the shit cake that was the situation. Makoto, who started out ignorant, got it in his head that feeling girls up without any commitment or emotional attachment was fine (thanks Sekai's emotions). Sekai got it in her head that it was okay for her to allow Makoto to touch her despite the fact that she knew Kotonoha still thought of Makoto as her boyfriend (thanks again Sekai's emotions). And poor Kotonoha became absolutely convinced Makoto was her boyfriend and that he loved her even though this was not the case. (thanks Makoto's lies/indecision).

kenren

Thu, 10-04-2007, 03:10 PM

I was flying through the posts above and I've decided not to wait for Conclave's version anymore. Things seem very interesting o_O

RyougaZell

Thu, 10-04-2007, 03:20 PM

I was flying through the posts above and I've decided not to wait for Conclave's version anymore. Things seem very interesting o_O

Welcome to the darkside...
I am not very happy with m.3.3.w's work, but they at least released. Will probably wait for Conclave to finish their version to burn the series on DVD though...

shinta|hikari

Fri, 10-05-2007, 01:07 AM

@Yuki - No one ever tried to remove blame from the girls, since it was quite obvious that everyone was at fault to some extent in the whole story. BUT, what a certain someone was trying to show was that Itou was the victim, or deserves less blame than the girls (particularly Sekai) which I believe is plain idiotic.

@Ryll - I dont think Sekai is as devious as you made her seem. She may have done those things with such an intent, but such an intent would probably be subconscious (she wasnt aware herself, at least completely) and caused by her desire to get close to Makoto rather than a premeditated deception.

MakotoOwns

Fri, 10-05-2007, 02:42 AM

Justifying murder though? Damn you people are sick. I have no respect for a guy that tries to weasel out of something he should take responsibility, I hate the notion of females who take no responsibility for their own bodies. I, myself, will likely get a vasectomy in the near future to insure myself against such people. However, you don't see females take the same tact. It takes two to tango, and a female is at far greater risk from a pregnancy, so she should be the sole responsible party. And I would agree with that other guy that Makoto was indeed trying to take responsibility to "make the problem go away." There's a lot of hypocrisy in that alone, because the same kind of people who say that it's a female's body and that it's her responsibility and decision weather or not to abort also like to shift the responsibility onto somebody else when it's convenient. Either you think women are helpless or you think they can take responsibility for themselves, and I know what I think.

As far as the beginning of their relationship? I don't think Makoto did anything wrong either. The point in which he didn't break it off with Katsura is the point in which he started to make some serious mistakes. Sekai was my favorite character near the beginning of the series, but she later proved to be the worst. I'll admit though, Katsura got a lot of bonus points for the ending.

shinta|hikari

Fri, 10-05-2007, 05:50 AM

It takes two to tango, so the responsibility is supposed to be shared. No matter how you look at it, its unfair for any form of responsibility to be pushed to only one party. Its that simple.

Getting a vasectomy or any other "preventive" measure as you would classify them should depend on the person. Females do take such measures as well, such as pills, injections, diaphragms etc. If you are not aware of such things, I really dont know from what jungle you are from.

Making the problem "go away" is never the responsible thing to do. Responsibility is facing something, not running away from it.

Women arent helpless, but they arent all powerful either. Its not really asking for much to have a say on what happens to your body. Itou tried to take that away from Sekai, by coercing her to abort when she obviously does not want to.

Itou started going the wrong way when he slept with Sekai the first time. Everything would have been avoided if he kept it in his pants at that point. I do recognize though, that it was half Sekai's fault at that point for meeting him at the station.

Katsura got a lot of bonus points for the ending? What, for being out of it like a doll, or going insane and killing Sekai? If its the latter you are seriously contradicting your first sentence in your post.

I do understand reprehension towards justifying murder. In that case, I would understand the complaints. However, you and "that other guy" try to defend Itou's actions for what its worth, even relieving him of blame and pouring it all on Sekai. If you had simply said "I think Itou is crap, but I still cant allow murder", no one would have opposed you.

I personally think this killing is justified, since I think that people who do nothing but harm others and the world do not have a place in it, but that is just my 2 cents.

MFauli

Fri, 10-05-2007, 05:58 AM

BUT, what a certain someone was trying to show was that Itou was the victim, or deserves less blame than the girls (particularly Sekai) which I believe is plain idiotic.

About deserving less blame: Obviously.
What we can discuss about ist if Itou is the victim or not.
And if you carefully watched the series, he is....though Katsura is the biggest victim, of course.
Itou was a normal boy, wanted a hot girl, whatever. He was by no means a bad person in the beginning of the show. Then came Sekai, and made him into a not-caring asshole. From her, he learned that it´s ok to fuck other girls though having a girl friend. After Sekai´s training lessons, Itou just couldnt find guiltyness in fucking other girls...it was normal to him, thanks to Sekai.
If Sekai hadnt done anything after the first making contact with Katsura, Itou would have either learned that some girls dont want to be touched that soon, or he would have broken up with Katsura...the end.

All the tragedy took place because of Sekai. So, yeah, im saying, Itou is the victim of the girls (except Katsura) and Katsura is the victim of everyone.

shinta|hikari

Fri, 10-05-2007, 06:21 AM

WTF? Your posts are getting more senseless and irritating each time.

Now you say Itou was a victim? Well, murder victim maybe, but other than that, he is definitely the guilty felon, and everyone else his accomplices.

Sekai MADE him into what he is? That must be brain damage on your part. I dont even want to answer that, but I have to, for the sake of everyone else in this forum who probably cant bear to look at your and your soulmates posts long enough to reply.

Itou was by no means a bad person in the beginning. So is EVERYONE ELSE in this world. A baby cant be a bad person, can it? And everyone was a baby once. Does that make everyone, including thieves, rapists, killers, racists, and SEXISTS, a good person? No.

A person is comprised of the decisions he/she has made throughout their lives. Even with the influence of others (which in this case is debatable, but for the sake of argument lets assume that Itou did change due to such influences), in the end, the person that makes the decisions is oneself. Itou made all the wrong decisions. Let me enumerate, sleeping with Sekai while going out with Katsura, sleeping with Otome while screwing Sekai and going out with Katsura, sleeping with Sekai's bestfriend as a condition to keep an eye on her (while still "going out" with Sekai), sleeping with the twintail girl just because he is horny (whle still "going out" with Sekai), suddenly switching over to Katsura after all of this just because everyone else (except Sekai who got a baby he didnt want) dumped him, making out with Katsura like a bastard in front of Sekai (they could have done this in a trillion better places), and trying to make Sekai abort the baby without her consent. Im not sure if I got them all, but these are choices Itou MADE by HIMSELF. While influence does have a part to play in this, it is still the decisions of the person that determine whether he is at fault or not. If you think that he is guiltless or the victim after this, there is no more hope for you.

EDIT: with how you guys talk, you make it sound like Itou is a sex drone without the ability to think and decide for himself (and consequently is not responsible for his actions, thus guiltless). As a guy, I am seriously pissed off at such an implication, and even more offended that men like you exist.

Ryllharu

Fri, 10-05-2007, 07:24 AM

What at least *I* was saying is that Makoto is not completely to blame for how he became. He's still mostly to blame, but he was just as naive and ill-prepared for a relationship as Katsura. No one is really innocent (again, except for Katsura). Sekai's selfish actions of wanting her own relationship with him caused a lot in the shift of his personality.

Setsuna and Otome keyed off on it. They had both grown to like Makoto from some kindness he had done in the past, but by the time they qualified that lust for him, he had become someone else.

What Sekai did was give Makoto what he wanted. A purely physical relationship. Watching how he treats Sekai after their first "practice" kiss shows that he's only being close to her so he'll get more. His ignorance combined with Sekai's selfish behavior is what gave him the confidence he had to get any girl that approached him.

What Otome did was tempt him again. She just believed that he didn't have anyone else. She did later find he was with Sekai, but was willing to go through with it to have a connection to him. What she did was make him overconfident. After her, Makoto fucked anything that came near him, and wanted it often.

Makoto grew into what he became because of his own naivety and the environment that gave him the misconceptions about what a relationship is. His experiences made him into what he is, playing on his ego, giving him the wrong impression, etc.

Everyone in this series is selfish to some extreme or another. Makoto wanted a free ride, Sekai wanted what she couldn't have, Setsuna didn't want to feel guilty about leaving, Otome wanted her childhood crush, Hikari wanted comfort, Rape-Baka wanted Katsura, and Katsura wanted Makoto and a type of love that only exists in fiction.

Katsura may be the ultimate victim of this series, but even she was not without her own faults.

Yukimura

Fri, 10-05-2007, 08:00 AM

I guess my post was just too long because you two are restating the same things I pointed out about the progression of Itou's personality change. I find it tragic that he became the way he did but I look at it llike an Oedipus situation, he committed this extra heinous crime but he didn't know any better. Of course he should be held responsible for the things that he did, but I don't feel right judging many of his actions evil by the standards of a decent well-informed person, when everything he learned through his experiences with girls told him he wasn't doing anything 'wrong'.

shinta|hikari

Fri, 10-05-2007, 08:15 AM

@Ryll - I wasnt referring to you or yuki for that matter, just the two who seem to want to make Itou the hero/victim he isnt.

EDIT: I think we (at least people with human intelligence) have reached a logical consensus that though blame was on everyone, Itou deserved majority of it.

@Yuki - The problem with the excuse that he didnt know that what he was doing is wrong is the fact that he did seem to know it, but didnt care. He didnt want to expose his relationship with Sekai to Katsura because he knew it was wrong, and the same goes for every relationship (however short) he had. He knew he would have to face consequences should those "incidents" be revealed. Why? Because it wouldnt be accepted by their society and he knew he will be judged because of it (meaning it is "wrong" to do it). What he learned from those experiences isnt the idea that what he was doing is "not wrong", but rather the idea that he can get away with it (which he was doing quite well with until Sekai killed him).

It may be true that Itou didnt know anything about having a relationship with a girl, but he isnt a blank disk that completely has no data on it. Even Sekai was saying that what they were doing is wrong. Isnt that enough of a clue? Heck, he even admits that he is the worst kind of guy (several times I believe). How can he (or anyone for that matter) claim that he didnt know any better if he himself judges himself as "saitei"/the worst? Its just that his sexual urges get the better of his sense of "right". This coupled with his lack of ability to take responsibility for his actions pins him down as one evil, albeit idiotic, person for me.

MFauli

Fri, 10-05-2007, 08:29 AM

Itou was by no means a bad person in the beginning. So is EVERYONE ELSE in this world. A baby cant be a bad person, can it? And everyone was a baby once. Does that make everyone, including thieves, rapists, killers, racists, and SEXISTS, a good person? No.

You really take the easy route, dude.
Yes, noone is what he´ll become later. But it´s a bit different, when a murderer commits murder because of society (how can you change society, you cannot, you have to live with it) or when the one who made you into what you become is by your side. Then you CAN blame this person. And this person here is Sekai.

Itou may be an idiot, but being an idiot doesnt make you evil or makes you kill-worthy. Im repeatng myself, but it all started when Sekai couldnt loosen her grip onto Itou after she brought him and Katsura together. Instead of all the crap she did, she should have left the both of them alone. And we KNOW that Sekai wanted Itou from the very beginning, so it´s not as if she realized she loved Itou AFTER she helped him. She helped him because it was a way to get closer to him.

Im not taking all the blame away from Itou, but being dead, he is the 2nd biggest victim of this series, thanks to stupid Sekai.

RyougaZell

Fri, 10-05-2007, 09:02 AM

Oh yeah... Sekai is to blame because Makoto wanted to fuck Katsura and Katsura didn't want to.

Im currently lazy so I'll just add this... 'You can't help who you fall in love with'.

And yes... everyone is guilty of something in this series. No one is innocent... or rather only Kokoro.

shinta|hikari

Fri, 10-05-2007, 09:12 AM

@Mfauli - You are the one that takes the easy route you idiot. Stop ignoring what I have written down. You probably dont even read the more complicated parts (read my posts about "decision" and "Itou's view of self") because they dont register on your miniscule brain that probably doesnt even function.

Your first argument is downright stupid. Lets just say that what you are saying is "right" (which it definitely isnt even if you turn the world upside down). Then that means that Sekai killing Itou is not her fault, since it was Itou's fault for making her that way by choosing Katsura and forcing her to abort the child. Thus, Itou's death is Itou's fault. And since he was by Sekai's side, you CAN blame him, according to your faulty logic (I dont even want to call it logic, for it deteriorates the word).

Itou being kill-worthy isnt because he was an idiot, but rather because of his actions. Idiocy is a state, and no one deserves death only because of it (though I am having second thoughts about this because people like you are alive), but people who commit actions that harm others deserve to be punished. Granted, some may think that death is a bit too harsh, but that is left to opinion since there is no logical way to conclude it as fact.

And now, I have wasted several minutes of my valuable time trying to prove this stupid argument wrong, for the simple reason that its too idiotic to be left alone. Thanks to stupid you.

EDIT - wanna try activating your reputation?

Yukimura

Fri, 10-05-2007, 09:12 AM

@Shinta: You're right, I had forgotten that Itou recognized and admitted his own wrongness in one of the episodes around the School Festival. With that there's no more doubt that he did possess a normal moral compass at some point and chose to ignore it. I still have to blame Sekai some for facilitating his original cheating, but by the time of the School Festivel he knew that leading Katsura along while cheating with Sekai was not something he should be doing but he did it anyway because it was easier. That's pretty despicable (or pimp depending on how you look at it).

Yet, even with his horrible treatment of other peoples feelings, no high school aged guy deserves to die for shirking social responsibilities. Nothing Itou did would have caused harm if he didn't have the implicit cooperation/trust/support of his victim. He deserved to face consequences for his betrayal of that trust. However, he couldn't hurt anyone who didn't choose to trust him (Otome and Hikari turned out just fine), thus he was not any kind of threat to society at large so I see no justification for his death, other than Sekai's satisfaction that he suffered for what he did to her.

shinta|hikari

Fri, 10-05-2007, 09:20 AM

Well, I would like to posit emotional and psychological damage of the girls (Sekai and Katsura specifically) as reasons for him to be punished. He practically ruined Katsura and Sekai's lives by continuing his cheating ways. With him gone, girls that may befall the same fate in his hands in the future are saved. BUT, I do understand what you mean. Justifying death just because of that is something that a lot of people will frown upon, and probably rightfully so. Even I have to admit that wanting Itou's death is simply a personal wish on my part, and in no way can I say that he deserves to die in an "objective" sense.

RyougaZell

Fri, 10-05-2007, 09:35 AM

Before I try posting them... since the series is over... how about we check the games endings?

Any objections of posting info on them (the available ones at least)

MFauli

Fri, 10-05-2007, 09:49 AM

He practically ruined Katsura and Sekai's lives by continuing his cheating ways.

That´s where you´re just wrong.
You say that as if it was all Itou´s fault that ruined Katsura and Sekai.
Wrong.
Sekai ruined Itou, and as an effect of that Itou did certain things wrong. That Itou acted wrong is clear, but the cause of all is Sekai, no matter how you try to spin this fact.
Instead of insulting me, use the little of your brain to read my above posts. Im not going to repeat myself anymore, so you can read the reasons, why Sekai is at fault, above.

Yukimura

Fri, 10-05-2007, 09:55 AM

The awesome (AKA Bad) endings, I think they've all got English subtitles but I'm not sure as I gathered these a while ago for the MangaTraders forums.

Makoto chooses Sekai - Bad Ending - The Bloody Conclusion (Personal Favorite) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbEF50SvcfE)
Makoto chooses Sekai - Bad Ending - Eternally (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBGcwQNAnMI)
Makoto chooses Kotonoha - Bad Ending - To My Children (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_CiJDY5T-o)

The anime contained elements of both Bloody Conclusion and To My Children.

@MFauli: Even if Sekai alone started Makoto down a dark path doesn't mean he should be forgiven for his actions once he became a jerk.

@shinta: His cheating didn't ruin their lives it made them face a hard choice, they ruined their lives by not suppressing their feelings and using their heads to make the choice. Katsura should have walked out on him, but she didn't. Sekai should have done so as well, until she found out she was pregnant (which actually did ruin her life I guess). A good real world analogy would be battered spouses. Of course the abuser should go to jail no matter what, but at some point after continued abuse it starts to become the responsibility of the victim to just walk away. Sekai had a valid reason to want to stay when she discovered her pregnancy but Katsura had none other than her feelings.

shinta|hikari

Fri, 10-05-2007, 09:56 AM

RyougaZell

Fri, 10-05-2007, 10:03 AM

Katsura's Best Ending is them spending Christmas together.
Sekai's Best Ending is them dancing on the BonFire
Hikari has two endings, one where she already has a child with Makoto. One is called 'Everyone's Makoto'
Otome has one ending... as well as her friends.
Setsuna's ending leaves Sekai and Makoto together and she leaving to Paris.

For those with no youtube (like me...)

Eternally
Sekai and Makoto are in love and decide to confront Kotonoha and tell her about it. Kotonoha handles it very badly, even begging Makoto to "Please date me. I beg you."[2] Afterwards she quietly tells them that they will never be happy together. As Sekai and Makoto leave the apartment, Kotonoha's phone falls and shatters on the floor. They then witness Kotonoha jumping off the ledge of the apartment, landing head first on the pavement. The epilogue shows Makoto in front of Kotonoha's grave: he broke up with Sekai, finished high school and is now working with his mom. He has never had a girlfriend since.

To My Children
In the middle of an H-scene between Kotonoha and Makoto, he tries to comfort her that she is the only one for him, and that Sekai is good for nothing, and that she's only there for him to sleep with. Sekai overhears this and becomes enraged. Six months later, Kotonoha and Makoto are on a walk outside, with her talking about having a baby. When they part, Sekai (now pregnant) appears and stabs Makoto. Even with a knife sticking into him, Makoto speaks calmly. Sekai suddenly becomes terrified at what she has done and runs off. Makoto slowly crawls to a bench, leaving a trail of blood. Makoto later dies.

The Bloody Conclusion
Sekai and Makoto are in love. Kotonoha overhears Makoto and Sekai loudly making love to each other, which in turn emotionally destroys her. The next day as they leave the train station where the three always take, they meet Kotonoha on an overpass beside the station. There is an awkward moment as Sekai lets go of Makoto's arm, greeting her. Kotonoha says a few words, before revealing the saw hidden behind her school bag and swipes it beside Sekai's neck. After a few seconds of realizing what had just happened, Sekai suddenly bleeds like a spray and collapses in a pool of blood, with Kotonoha laughing hysterically, her eyes revealing that she has completely broken down

There is an ending where Makoto ends with BOTH Katsura and Sekai.

And one of my favs that obviously wasn't included...

I'm the Wife
A post-fin episode to the endings "Carnal Desire" and "Bavarois", appears only on certain condition. This episode actually does not have an official title. Above title, "I'm the Wife", is only a nickname among fans. Makoto is at home with his mother and receives a picture and letter from Setsuna from France, showing her standing in front of the Arc de Triomphe obviously pregnant. She writes: I will be giving birth in Japan, so I'll return around the time when you get this letter. Please think of a name. Setsuna"[3]. The doorbell rings and Makoto's chosen lover (Kotonoha in case the ending is "Carnal Desire", or Sekai in case the ending is "Bavarois") comes in, introducing Setsuna to Makoto's mother as Makoto's former classmate if Kotonoha is chosen, or as being her childhood friend if Sekai is chosen. Setsuna promptly introduces herself, "I'm the wife," holding up her pregnancy inoculations booklet and a victory sign.

MFauli

Fri, 10-05-2007, 11:28 AM

@Mfauli - You dumb fuck. You deserve to be cursed. How can you be so idiotic as to not see the trench-like gaps in your reasoning?

"Sekai ruined Itou" is not a fact, stop saying it like it is.

Itou acting wrong is Itou acting wrong. It is no one else's fault.

I want/have/deserve the right to insult you.

"Use the little of your brain"? That is not even proper english.

Just because you state "reasons" (which are absolutely incoherent) does not mean they are correct.

EDIT: You are technically the most mentally lacking person I have ever encountered.

Im so laughing out loud right now ^^
Dude, if you dont have any more arguments, just leave it be.
You´re a elitest feminist, it´s ok (well, it´s not, but anyway).
Just because you hate a characater dont make everyone else hate him.

@Yuki: Right, and i never said Itou was a completely blame-free person. But some people in this thread made it seem as if he was the big enemy of the series. That´s just wrong. He was made into a jerk by Sekai, then kept on doing crap...because he wanted, at this point, but also because Sekai started the mess. So you can blame Itou for what he did after the first 3 episodes, but you cant blame him for what happened at the beginning.

RyougaZell

Fri, 10-05-2007, 11:35 AM

Lets re-phrase then...

Hyphotetically (sp?) speaking... It is right for us to beat you up because you gave us enough reasons? no?

Yes. Sekai is wrong killing him. She is wrong by letting Makoto have sex with her.

But saying Makoto is innocent because Sekai made him like that is just plainly stupid... accept it.

She gave him the push he needed to be the complete jerk he was, wanting only physical relationships and forgetting of feelings. Makoto was trash who probably didn't knew a shit about real relationships since his own parents were divorced.

Ok... delete Sekai from the equation. What happens? Otome goes for him and the cycle repeats. Erase Otome from the equation then what? Setsuna. Go as far as taking her out as well... then? Hikari.

Sekai, who I repeat is NOT innocent in no way, didn't make him that way. HE became that way himself thanks to his own urges and the pushes of the girls.

Katsura as well is no way innocent... she was the one that had less motives to become crazy... and in the end she became the craziest of them all.

EDIT:

Lets add this...

Saying Makoto became like that because of Sekai is like those that say...

'He killed him because he plays violent videogames'
'He is satanic for reading harry potter'
'He violated her because she tempted him'
'He is crazy because he listens to metallic music'

etc....

shinta|hikari

Fri, 10-05-2007, 11:58 AM

Boy, Mfauli is just exceeding my expectations. Indeed, idiots never realize they are idiots... Such a pity.

@Mfauli - Me running out of arguments? I gave tons of them. I still have several, unfortunately none of them you can understand. If you dont agree with me, ask anyone in this forum. I bet even your other self will disagree with you.

Itou IS the big enemy of the series. Thats why he died. Thats what the creators intended. That is what is obvious. And that, is what you cant seem to see. Either way, you seem to have changed your argument from Itou being a blameless victim, to him being not just the big enemy of the series. That is simply a pathetic way to escape responsibility for the stuff you said before. Hmm, reminds me of someone (ITOU! ITOU!). Kinda makes me understand why you are so adamant in defending him.

Im not an elitist feminist. Heck, Im not even a feminist. You probably dont even know what the terms mean. You are however, a chauvinist, as you even admitted before.

Just because you like a character because of your sick and idiotic self, dont try and defend him against people with common sense using arguments like "Sekai is the one at fault for everything because she was the one that caused Itou to become a sex drone." that no one in their right mind would accede to.

I will restate my arguments for the purpose of your understanding:
1) Itou is not a robot, he has a will of his own. It was his wrong decisions that caused things to fall apart.
2) Influence can only influence you, not force you to do or become anything.
3) Saying that Sekai is the cause of all this just because she tempted and slept with Itou is a false conclusion, since Itou was half to blame for going after her and screwing her.
4) People's have to take responsibility for their actions and decisions. Itou did nothing of the sort.

Here is a new one:
Based on your theory that if people affect you in a certain way causing you to become one thing or another they are to blame, Itou screwed Katsura (and everyone else) over, because if he didnt put her picture in his celphone, the whole events of school days wouldnt have happened. Katsura wouldnt have turned psycho and they probably would have lived normally (this is sarcasm, since you probably wont get it. Still, its a valid criticism). Before you reply, please explain how this disjoint in your logic can be solved. Then maybe someone will listen to your babbling.

MFauli

Fri, 10-05-2007, 12:02 PM

Sorry, but saying Itou was what he became at the end of the series is just stupid.
Yeah, he wanted more than anything sex with Katsura. But that´s nothing bad, that´s natural. That´s why do mostly dont marry your first girl friend, because you start wanting sex, and then grow into wanting more, an emotional relationship.

Itou was exactly that in the beginning of the series, a 100% normal boy.
Then came Sekai and showed him that it´s okay to "train" with her, even though he had a girl friend at this point. You can blame Itou, at that point, for being stupid, BUT: You HAVE to blame Sekai for initiiating the whole mess. If she wasnt, nothing else would have happened. Or rather, she would have probably ended up with Itou in a peacuful relationship.

And please, read more carefully, i never said Itou was "innocent". At the beginning, yeah, later on, no.

shinta|hikari

Fri, 10-05-2007, 12:20 PM

No one is saying that Itou is evil by default you idiot. Read back and be enlightened.

What everyone is saying that everything that he did after that was screwed up. He eventually became the way he was at the end BECAUSE of his actions and decisions. Sekai and all the other girls did have something to do with it, but they didnt force him to do anything. He CHOSE to do all of the stuff he did on his own. He is not an innocent child, he should have known better, but continued acting like a jerk.

And your argument about Sekai starting everything is pretty much shot full of holes. Read my and RZ's post to understand.

EDIT: And Mfauli, if you still plan to reply, please, please, try to refute the last criticism I gave in my previous post before saying anything else. Your whole argument is based on that, so if you cant refute it, anything you say will simply be pointless banter based on a fallacy.

Yukimura

Fri, 10-05-2007, 01:09 PM

Saying that Sekai is the cause of all this just because she tempted and slept with Itou is a false conclusion, since Itou was half to blame for going after her and screwing her.

I am inclined to believe that if Sekai never helped Makoto with Kotonoha then his initial shyness and ineptitude would have kept them (He and Kotonoha) apart until the crush wore off or high school ended. From that belief (which is based on nothing more than personal interpretation of things not explicitly shown in the anime) it becomes easy to see Sekai as the root instigator of the whole tragedy. It's not like Itou is blameless for his part or that it's all Sekai's fault and no one elses, but when I look for the earliest event that if removed from the story seems likely to avert the final outcome Sekai's assistance kind of stares me in the face.

shinta|hikari

Fri, 10-05-2007, 01:26 PM

Umm, if you read my other post, if you remove the part of Itou placing Katsura's picture on his celphone, such a tragedy wouldnt have occured either. Naturally, that is a foolish assumption and is merely pointless speculation. That is also the case with Sekai's involvement. No one knows what would have happened if she didnt interfere, and no one ever will.

The reaction to this argument will probably be like this: "But putting a picture on a celphone is a completely innocent act, and Itou would never have thought that it will lead to a chain of events that will lead to his death." However, the same can be said for Sekai. Sekai helping Itou out was done without knowledge of what the outcome will be, so blaming such an act (that may have ended in a completely different result) is illogical. This is not as simple as a math equation, wherein removing a factor will produce a clear and predictable result. Using this type of reasoning is the same as saying that : "If Hitler's grandfather didnt marry his grandmother, then the genocide wouldnt have occurred. Therefore, since he did, he is to blame for the genocide." Get the point?

In the first place, Sekai didnt know such a tragedy will befall them from such an act, while Itou should have known that what he was doing is hurting people, since he himself admitted that he is "the worst".

MFauli

Fri, 10-05-2007, 02:22 PM

What everyone is saying that everything that he did after that was screwed up. He eventually became the way he was at the end BECAUSE of his actions and decisions. Sekai and all the other girls did have something to do with it, but they didnt force him to do anything. He CHOSE to do all of the stuff he did on his own. He is not an innocent child, he should have known better, but continued acting like a jerk.

It all started with Sekai, that´s a fact.
Everything else you wrote is correct, BUT: If Sekai wouldnt have let herself impregnated, there´d be no problem. Yeah, it wouldnt be alright what else happened, but there´d be nothing else than typical love problems. You build your argument around this, but that´s something that happened in the last episodes. It´s a matter or interpretation, again, but i think, if Sekai wouldnt just have shouted out "im pregnant from you, Itou!!!" in the class room in front of friends and teachers, Itou would have reacted different. At least not as coldly as he did.

in the first place, Sekai didnt know such a tragedy will befall them from such an act, while Itou should have known that what he was doing is hurting people, since he himself admitted that he is "the worst".

LOL, pardon?!?
Sekai´s the only one who sees: "Ah, Itou and Katsura are a pair now" and then choses "damn, but i want Itou....i know that they´re fine, but i have to change that somehow" and then starts her "lessons".
The later development of Itou is no matter to discuss, because he never would have become this person, if Sekai hadnt done what she did at this moment.

Damn feminist, sorry.

animus

Fri, 10-05-2007, 02:25 PM

They were never fine. Katsura and Itou went on their first date, and Itou was like he's like this i s unsatisfactory, or this is boring or w/e. In other words, their relationship wasn't stable, if at all taking off.

shinta|hikari

Fri, 10-05-2007, 02:32 PM

@Mfauli - you never cease to amaze me. You can apparently dive to new depths of ignorance with each breath.

Anyway, until you refute the criticism against the basis of your argument, talking to an idiot like you any further is a moot point. If you wish to be recognized (because no one does obviously) at least try to PROVE that it really was Sekai that caused Itou to become that way. The greatest thing hindering that is my counter argument (3 posts up), which you have not addressed. Do that (properly of course, with someone else accepting your explanation other than yourself, and your other "self"), and maybe I will even accept your views.

EDIT: Oh, and your speculation about Sekai's thoughts, are just that, baseless speculation. If her goal was to break them apart, she didnt have to resist Itou at all, which she did quite a few times until she gave in due to his persistence (a point that you seem to ignore each and every time). Your speculation about how Itou would have reacted is also baseless. No one, and I mean no one, probably thinks thats the reason why Itou acted coldly, except you.

BTW, Sekai's lessons = Itou becoming sex maniac that cheats on anyone with anyone and Itou's putting a celphone picture of Katsura on his phone(the very first thing that happened) = events that lead to tragedy follow the same logic. Just wanted to point it out AGAIN, since you never seem to address it.

another BTW, being a feminist (well at least the moderate types) is not a bad thing, not that I am one. Being a chauvinist (the term itself being derogatory) is a bad thing though.

MFauli

Fri, 10-05-2007, 02:46 PM

Of course it is baseless, even moreso because it suits your little world of an opionion :)

because no one does obviously

And dont apply to yourself as "no one", it´s pretty ignorant.

I went in-depth about why Sekai was the start of all the mess. You kept on whining about what an idiot Itou is, what an idiot i am.
If that´s all you have to see, just quit it, but dont emberrass yourself any further, because you clearly dont have a point.

another BTW, being a feminist (well at least the moderate types) is not a bad thing, not that I am one. Being a chauvinist (the term itself being derogatory) is a bad thing though.

Nowadays, being a feminist is just as bad as being a chauvinist. But that´s so off-topic, just no, lol.

RyougaZell

Fri, 10-05-2007, 03:11 PM

It all started with Sekai, that´s a fact.
Everything else you wrote is correct, BUT: If Sekai wouldnt have let herself impregnated, there´d be no problem.
.

Oh heck... you didn't write this shit... yes you did....

So in your opinion, all women that get pregnant without wanting too is their fault? Oh hell... till now I was behaving, not calling names... but man... you surely won the right to be called an idiot.....

It could have been ANY of the girls that got pregnant... Sekai was chosen for being a main character...

Makoto didn't want to get her pregnant? He has 2 options... Don't have sex, or at least get his messy little ones OUT of her... alas... he didn't care...

Sekai didn't shout on the class she was pregnant because she wanted, she did it because he didn't believe her and didn't want to take responsability.

Like shinta|hikari now I also dare you to counter his post (first of this page), and mine from last page (last one). If you make a good post, believable I'll withdraw accepting everyone has their own thoughts. Thing you HAVEN'T done in ANY of your posts. Everyone here agrees everyone is at fault but you, who keep saying Makoto is a poor lamb victim of women sitting on his little-Makoto by themselves and getting him in trouble. Poor poor Makoto... he most surely will go to heaven because he was such an innocent poor boy. BAH!

animus

Fri, 10-05-2007, 03:32 PM

Hm, this wasn't mentioned by anybody. But as I was watching the scene where Sekai was killing Makoto, doesn't Makoto say "Thank goodness." as he was dying, and a bloody hand on her dress? Did he want to die for all the shit he's done?

RyougaZell

Fri, 10-05-2007, 03:44 PM

It was commented a few pages back.
My personal opinion is that even at this point he was running away, and was relieved to die, so he could escape responsability and pain. A coward to the end.

BTW... seems the private airing of the last episode will have red blood, less flashbacks and more... sounds *shudder*

MFauli

Fri, 10-05-2007, 03:55 PM

Everyone here agrees everyone is at fault but you, who keep saying Makoto is a poor lamb victim of women sitting on his little-Makoto by themselves and getting him in trouble. Poor poor Makoto... he most surely will go to heaven because he was such an innocent poor boy. BAH!

No.
Please read.
Everyone at first agreed that Itou is at fault, he alone. More than anyone shinta wrote that. THEN i went on saying how it wasnt all his fault, and we THEN agreed that everyone was at fault.
Then some idiot went on saying how Itou was so bad, but the girls werent, and that´s why i kept on writing. Everyone´s at fault, everyone at different times of the series. I only said, and still say, that everything began with Sekai, anything else followed her actions.

Yukimura

Fri, 10-05-2007, 04:02 PM

@animus: If you go to the m.3.3.w website the tl admits this was a mistranslation. Itou simply says "Sekai...." and I think grabs her breast one last time.

Lol @shinta|hikari I would really like to read a thread where you logically outline why it's bad to be a chauvinist but not bad to be a feminist. It sounds nice to just say it but I want to see the logical argument.

Anyway,

The reaction to this argument will probably be like this: "But putting a picture on a cellphone is a completely innocent act, and Itou would never have thought that it will lead to a chain of events that will lead to his death." However, the same can be said for Sekai. Sekai helping Itou out was done without knowledge of what the outcome will be, so blaming such an act (that may have ended in a completely different result) is illogical.

My response is simply this, people should always mind their own business unless asked for advice by someone else (life-and-death situations are excluded obviously). If you don't heed that principle and attempt to meddle in someone's life it becomes a two-to-tango situation where both parties share responsibility, the initiator for initiating and the receiver for being letting the initiator affect them. That being said, things like responsibility and blame can be quite abstract since everything has a cause that precedes it. I choose to (arbitrarily) define the initiator of events like these as the first person who made a conscious effort to alter the status quo of the other.

In this case Itou putting a picture on his camera was something he did for himself, so to me no one else shares responsibility for that. When Sekai came along and saw the picture she made a judgment and then chose to say things to Itou based on that judgment. I do not view the fact that Sekai saw the picture that Itou took as a transfer of responsibility back to him because she was not meant to see the picture and it was her choice not to respect his privacy. By acting on information she was clearly not meant to have she becomes responsible for the effects her actions have.

I believe in the legal world this situation would fall under the term liability. I hold Sekai as ultimately liable for the events of the story because of the reasons stated above. A familiar example to many Americans would be the outcome of the OJ Simpson murder trials. While he was found not Guilty of the murders in a criminal court he was found liable for the murders in a civil court. Liability basically means, your had ultimate responsibility for the situation.

As to your call to MFauli to get someone to agree with him that Sekai was the instigator (If I've misinterpreted what you were challenging him to prove then ignore the rest of this post) I have said I did several times already. I hold no special love for MFauli and think he is doing a poor job at arguing his points and has views more extreme than my own. However, he and I seem to share the belief that Sekai has ultimate responsibility for the entire situation, not the specific wrongdoings of any particular character but the situation as a whole. You certainly don't have to agree with that point but if your solution to having more than one person disagree with you is to just ignore the other person and attack the original source more then you're being a poor debater as well.

RyougaZell

Fri, 10-05-2007, 04:12 PM

MFauli

Fri, 10-05-2007, 04:39 PM

Yuki... I believe what shinta is trying to prove is that Makoto is in no way innocent, as MFauli stated several times. He stated Sekai was at fault for getting pregnant, and that Makoto was innocent.

Im in no way saying Sekai isn't at fault, since she truly is for meddling, but nevertheless, Makoto is not a lamb, but guilty as well. THAT is what we are trying to do... not find people who agree Sekai is at fault, like I've said, I do believe she is, but to contradict MFauli's statement that Makoto is innocent.

Which i never said.
Great reading skills here, lol.
I said that Itou was innocent in the beginning, not that he wasnt in the middle of the story.
If you think, the whole drama is Itou´s responsibility, then that´s where i disagree. But i never disagreed, that Itou shares blame just like every character in this series.

This argument started because of certain people writing as if Itou was THE person that did something wrong. That´s what i started answering to. That and nothing else.

RyougaZell

Fri, 10-05-2007, 04:50 PM

And what happened to your arguments of:

- Makoto became like that because of Sekai
- It is selfish of Sekai wanting the father of her child to take responsability
- It is Sekai's fault for getting pregnant.

You somehow change your arguments and forget your own points.

Whatever... this is going no where. And there are still 2 more hours before I can leave the office...

MFauli

Fri, 10-05-2007, 05:07 PM

- Makoto became like that because of Sekai

Read everything above.
Sekai is at fault in the beginning, then Itou starts being at fault, thanks to Sekai. Nothing wrong about that.

- It is selfish of Sekai wanting the father of her child to take responsability

Also already discussed. Advising Sekai to abort is a kind of taking responsibility. And then we dont know what would have happened if Sekai got the child and Itou saw that.

- It is Sekai's fault for getting pregnant.

How is it not?
She didnt care about Itou using a condome and didnt care about other safety actions. Sorry, but that´d be the same as if i had sex with a woman that´s infected with AIDS and me, though knowing that, not using a condome. That´s really her fault. I cant even think of how much of a feminist you had to be to spin that point around.

animus

Fri, 10-05-2007, 05:37 PM

Because Condoms can't break or tear amiright?

Yukimura

Fri, 10-05-2007, 05:45 PM

@MFauli most people who believe in abortion at all believe that only a woman has a right to decide if she's going to abort, and that the man's opinion on the issue doesn't matter whether he's for or against it. These same people also tend to believe that the man picks up a responsibility to the mother to support her (not sure how that works) in addition to a responsibility to the child. These types of people can't really be reasoned with on such an issue so trying to defend the argument that facilitating abortion is a valid way for a man to take responsibility is pointless if someone.

As to the blame for the pregnancy it's both of their faults it would have only taken one of them to either take precautions or stop the sex (Itou never struck me as the type to forcibly open clenched thighs). Yet neither did so both are equally at fault.

MFauli

Fri, 10-05-2007, 07:06 PM

Well, we live in a modern world where abortion is nothing strange anymore. So it really is the mother´s choice to keep or not to keep the baby.

As for Itou and Sekai, sure both could be careful about that matter, but in the end, like you said, it´s the mother´s decision, so it´s also the to-be mother´s decision to be careful or not to be careful. If Itou isnt careful, oh well. If Sekai isnt careful, she´ll get pregnant. So one can argue as long as he wants, the main responsibility of pregnancy always lies on the woman´s side.

But now we´re off-topic, arent we? ^^

shinta|hikari

Fri, 10-05-2007, 10:27 PM

@Yuki - You completely misunderstood what I ws trying to say. You agreed with Mfauli that Sekai has ultimate responsibility, but you are saying it on a completely different level. He is basically saying that everything is Sekai's fault, including the wrong decisions of Itou, SINCE she was the one who changed him. Saying that she changed him presupposes that he is not to blame for what he has become. So even if Mfauli keeps saying that he thinks that Itou is NOT innocent and has faults, as long as he keeps such a view, his qualifier is worth shit and basically redeems Itou of the main sins that should be attributed to him in the story. You are simply saying that Sekai started everything on more objective terms (which I still oppose with my argument before), even using legalistic basis for your analysis (which I also do not agree to). But your proposition makes tons more sense than his. --I do resent you calling me "not a good debater" because I am. I do have to admit that I lost my temper because of Mfauli's incoherent and baseless arguments and stopped clarifying the stuff I said, particularly because I thought everyone but him understood my position.--

I just find it unfair that the "practice sessions" became Sekai's fault alone. We musnt forget that when she said to practice the kiss Itou tried to kiss her for real, and that Itou responded to all of it with his own free will. Part of the responsibility of that event is his, an accomplice per se. So if you have to use this event as the triggering cause (which I still do not believe to be the case since it is waaay too far from the result with too many events in between where things could have changed), the fault lies in BOTH Sekai and Itou. It can be argued that since Sekai offered it she is more to blame, but that does not redeem Itou of anything either. This simply means that Sekai didnt make Itou into what he became. If anything, both of the actions at this point changed him (following your way of argument of course).

About the feminist thing, I did qualify it by saying "at least the moderate ones" (extreme feminists are almost like chauvinists only of the opposite sex IMHO). Moderate feminists almost share the same views as I do, and a majority of the people have accepted the reforms they have pushed for in the present world. It is not an exaggeration to say that gender equality is owed to them. Chaunist is a derogatory term due to the fact that most (if not all) societies of the world before was a patriarchy, and this term was utilized to label men who are biased towards men and against women, thereby further oppressing the "marginalized". As you can see, it is because people like Mfauli exist that the term has become negative in meaning.

The main responsibility for an abortion does lie on the woman's side (personally I think that the decision should be a consensus from both parents, unless special circumstances prevent such a thing), but the fact that she got pregnant is half Itou's responsibility. Saying otherwise is obviously extremely biased towards men, and this claim I simply cannot let slide.

EDIT: also my call for Mfauli was to disprove my counter arguments (which he never did, although Yuki gave it a shot), and get someone to agree with his rebuttal (not just the skeleton idea). So technically, Yuki's complaint about my challenge does not apply. I know it sounds like I want to ignore him if he cant do this, and that is because I DO want to ignore him. Listening to anyone argue like him is really a waste of time, especially since he seems hell-bent on keeping his position.

RyougaZell

Sat, 10-06-2007, 12:38 AM

Ok... I'll add another one since the previous ones I posted where general (and ignored).

If you say it is Sekai's fault that Makoto changed... that Sekai changed him... and he wasn't at fault then... using this logic can we say the following?

Rape-boy is in fact innocent and pure and was lead to that situation by Katsura because she allowed him to rape her. She changed him from the innocent pure-boy he was to a rape-boy because Katsura didn't stop him from spreading her legs.

Same situation. 4 characters. If MFauli's theory on Sekai and Makoto is correct, then rape-boy (whatever his name) and Katsura's as well.

Yukimura

Sat, 10-06-2007, 02:13 AM

I do resent you calling me "not a good debater" because I am. I know it sounds like I want to ignore him if he cant do this, and that is because I DO want to ignore him. Listening to anyone argue like him is really a waste of time, especially since he seems hell-bent on keeping his position.

The point of my implication that you were being a poor debater was to help you recognize that you were not displaying the qualities of a good debater in your posts to MFauli. You seemed knocked off track by MFauli's poor reasoning and started responding in a less civilized manner as a result. I sensed emotions and arrogance in your comments instead of just facts and logical arguments. Once you let your emotions into the argument I felt it made you less credible and I called you out on it because I would want to be called out as well. Just because MFauli can't argue his response doesn't mean your claims becomes more valid.

Even if MFauli is as ignorant as you say if you want to have a rational discussion with him calling him names does not help at all. From the wording of your last few posts I sensed more and more emotion from you which made it look like you couldn't withstand the assertions of someone who's points don't make sense to you without losing your composure and attacking them personally.

You said I "completely misunderstood" and then proceeded to explain the differences between what MFauli said and what I said but I would be better able to understand you if you clarified exactly which comment of yours I misunderstood and clarified what it was you were trying to say.

It was and currently is my understand that this was the challenge you offered to the "Blame Sekai for * argument" was this:

Based on your theory that if people affect you in a certain way causing you to become one thing or another they are to blame, Itou screwed Katsura (and everyone else) over, because if he didnt put her picture in his celphone, the whole events of school days wouldnt have happened. Katsura wouldnt have turned psycho and they probably would have lived normally (this is sarcasm, since you probably wont get it. Still, its a valid criticism). Before you reply, please explain how this disjoint in your logic can be solved. Then maybe someone will listen to your babbling.

Was I correct in the assumption that this "paradox" was why you don't agree that Sekai could be the one to blame for the events of School Days?

NOTE: If you are simply tired of this discussion and don't feel like continuing I don't think anyone would give you grief about that. But I would like to think that you are better than anger posting when you are at your wits end. I don't speak for anyone else but I want to understand your reasoning because it's different from mine and yet you so strongly support it, however if you don't want to clarify your argument to me then just say so and I"ll keep my own counsel.

shinta|hikari

Sat, 10-06-2007, 03:26 AM

Its not a paradox. It is a negative example. That was just an example that illustrates how the reasoning used to hold Sekai liable is wrong by showing that using the same reasoning on something else can produce such a senseless conclusion. Let me explain:

My reasoning was simple. Sekai cannot be the instigator or liable as you put it, since so many events have happened in between the "cause" and the "effect". The cause that Mfauli and you are trying to posit is not even directly linked to the final outcome. It doesnt even clearly cause Itou's change in behavior. Sekai didnt force Itou to become anything. The "practice" thing is not causative of Itou's reaction. He could have responded in numerous ways, one of which is to simply not participate in such an activity. Saying that just because Sekai initiated the idea of the practice she is to blame or is liable for all the events that followed is similar to saying that Einstein (since the A-bomb is based on some of his ideas) is at fault for the deaths in hiroshima via the atomic bomb.

To put it in more simple terms, Sekai was indeed "wrong" for doing that practice thing, but you cannot trace back all that has happened to just that. It didnt cause it, nor was it necessary for it to happen (some other event could have led to the same tragedy). You cant blame the swordmaker for the murders a person commits using his sword. You cant charge a teacher to be aiding in tax evasion if his lessons gave a person the knowledge to cheat the system. And you cant say that Itou became a jerk, cheated on those women, ran from his responsibilites just because of Sekai's practice sessions. The logical chain just isnt there. Life isnt a>b>c>d therefore a>d, especially because at any point in b and c there is free choice on everyone's part, and majority of the most influential decisions were in Itou's hands.

I do have to admit that I was getting emotional, and I owe you thanks for pointing it out. In fact, I didnt see one line of your previous post about ignoring the comment if you misunderstood the challenge I gave to Mfauli. It is just that I was surprised as to how foolish Mfauli's ideas and arguments were getting, and how he seemed to not even read or try to understand the arguments and rebuttals I wrote down, that I lost my temper (and I still believe rightfully so).

What you misunderstood was that I didnt posit the condition of me accepting his views if someone agreed with them, but if he somehow defends his views properly and someone recognizes his defense as valid. Since you gave your own explanation it is of a different matter. He has so far not addressed the point (which is the basis of his entire "blame Sekai" theory), much less get anyone to recongize it.

Still, despite the language that I used against him (including calling him an idiot, which I can objectively defend he is), I think that my arguments are sound.

EDIT: Just to clear things up, part of the reason I kept emphasizing that Mfauli is an idiot is because a persons ideas reflect his character and capabilities. If I simply argue on objective terms he will simply ignore it. I really think that he deserved to be reprimanded for the stuff that he keeps spouting, particularly since it can insult or hurt other people (albeit inadvertently).

MFauli

Sat, 10-06-2007, 08:13 AM

My reasoning was simple. Sekai cannot be the instigator or liable as you put it, since so many events have happened in between the "cause" and the "effect". The cause that Mfauli and you are trying to posit is not even directly linked to the final outcome. It doesnt even clearly cause Itou's change in behavior. Sekai didnt force Itou to become anything. The "practice" thing is not causative of Itou's reaction.

That is simply wrong.
You call me poor at debating, but make an argument as the above.
If Sekai´s offering of "training lessons" wasnt causative, then we have to assume that Itou was an i-fuck-everyone-i-want-sorry-at-my-girlfriend-person from the very beginning of the show. And i REALLY dont see any scenes before Sekai´s involvement that´d make me think this.

@other ugy:

Wow, now Itou is a raper. Keep it coming XD

oyabun

Sat, 10-06-2007, 08:32 AM

@other ugy:

Wow, now Itou is a raper. Keep it coming XD

I think he was referring to Itou's friend. And using him as an example

shinta|hikari

Sat, 10-06-2007, 09:54 AM

@Mfauli - you clearly do not know what causative means. Look it up. Nevermind, I will explain it... again.

Causative means that A will cause B, not A may cause B.

Sekai's practice sessions didnt cause Itou to become a jerk. It may be a factor, but it didnt cause it.

Clarification:
If I punch and hit you, you will feel pain (causative since the pain is definitely going to happen)
If I punch and hit you, you may hit back (not causative, since you may or may not hit back, depending on your choice)

EDIT: Sekai's practice lesson is a causative "factor", key word here being factor, emphasizing that it can lead to such an effect. What I meant by causative is that it will definitely produce that result, which is obviously what you are trying to say.

MFauli

Sat, 10-06-2007, 09:59 AM

I clearly understand what causative means, thanks anyways.

If A tells B that it´s ok to kiss/touch/fuck her even though B is in a relationship, then B will think that it is ok.

Your spin is great, shinta ^^

shinta|hikari

Sat, 10-06-2007, 10:13 AM

Or maybe B will think that A is lying/stupid/wrong/does not know what she is talking about and will simply ignore what she said?

Its different from being stabbed in the heart > death, which is causative.

And no, you do not understand what causative means, so I took the liberty of researching for you.

Causative
2 : expressing causation; specifically : being a linguistic form that indicates that the subject causes an act to be performed or a condition to come into being
From Merriam-Webster

EDIT: Oh, and Sekai never said that it was ok to fuck her even if you have a girlfriend. She was actually resisting Itou at that point (case in point - after the swimming scenario). They did end up doing it though.

MFauli

Sat, 10-06-2007, 10:23 AM

EDIT: Oh, and Sekai never said that it was ok to fuck her even if you have a girlfriend. She was actually resisting Itou at that point (case in point - after the swimming scenario). They did end up doing it though.

She was resisting? So Itou is a raper indeed, eh?

shinta|hikari

Sat, 10-06-2007, 10:31 AM

Wow, you managed to ignore my counter argument in the last post completely, and just focus on a side comment.

Anyway...
I am not saying Itou is a rapist (not raper), because he isnt. Sekai was resisting by saying that they should not do it because she feels bad for Katsura. And no one said that Itou is a rapist, so dont use the word indeed in your post (refer to oyabin's post for clarification).

So, how do you plan to refute my argument about Sekai's lessons not being causative?

MFauli

Sat, 10-06-2007, 10:41 AM

So, how do you plan to refute my argument about Sekai's lessons not being causative?

Ok, sorry, English is not my first language, so i ignored that because it´s a bit difficult to explain :)
Let´s see:
Causative may be that what follows A HAS TO be B, so no other possibility. What you want to express is that it´s not a given that Itou had to react the way he did, therefore it´s not causative, right?
Well, i can agree with that, but: The probability of Itou´s reaction was rather high, if you think about his state in the beginning of the series (where he just wanted sex, Sekai gave him that, thus the reactino was quite obvious).

shinta|hikari

Sat, 10-06-2007, 10:48 AM

Rather high is not definite, so you were wrong. heh.

Admitting that it was rather high because Itou is a person that just wanted sex is actually akin to saying that if it wasnt Itou, then the events that followed wouldnt have happened (or in your terms, would have had a much lower chance of happening). This means that Sekai wasnt the sole cause at all, as you were saying before. In fact, it implies that Itou is partly to blame for what has happened, because Itou, as you stated, has a higher chance of reacting in such a way, compared to someone else.

How do you get out of this now, I wonder?

Oh, and english is not my first language either.

RyougaZell

Sat, 10-06-2007, 11:53 AM

@other ugy:

Wow, now Itou is a raper. Keep it coming XD

This sentence clearly shows im utterly being ignored in my posts, therefore I'll withdraw from countering his posts. If anyone needs a feel to contradict my previous posts be free to do it and I'll gladly answer.

Oh... y el ingles tampoco es mi primer idioma =P

MFauli

Sat, 10-06-2007, 12:06 PM

But Itou being a person that more likely reacts "that" way doesnt take away the fact, that Sekai started it. And you never had an argument to answer that matter.

Yukimura

Sat, 10-06-2007, 01:47 PM

LOl arguing with a bunch of non native speakers is funny.

Anyway MFauli there is no way for you to convince shinta that you are not wrong because you are trying to logically argue an abstraction. shinta has stated he believes only concrete causations transfer responsibility. Example if you pull the trigger on a loaded gun pointed at a person the you are responsible for that person's death. However I think shinta would say if you told another person holding a loaded gun that the gun was empty then you are not responsible for the death the cause if they decide to pull the trigger without checking for themselves.

You (and I) seem to hold that responsibility can be transfered if a person acts in a way that is likely to result in a particular outcome regardless of the other choices. This is a socially preferable abstraction which makes it easier to hold people responsible when they do things that socially they shouldn't have done (like taking advantage of people less intelligent than themselves and convincing them to do things they shouldn't).

This dichotomy is not something that can be reasoned out with words because it's a part of how people choose to perceive the world. I think the way I do because I would want a person who offered a bum on the street money to kill me to be punished regardless of what choice the bum on the street made.

shinta your reasoning is logically sound as it places the blame on personal responsibility. However it is impractical in real world application because at some point people have to trust outside sources and if they are lied to or mislead by that source then the source should share the blame. Logic tends to ignore things like emotions, trust, deception, and expectations but these things all exist in our lives and I don't think it's fair for you to condemn people who aren't willing to sweep them under the rug just because you are. I'm not saying you have to agree but I'm trying to say opinions on who's responsible for what really come down to the personal values of the judge more than some sense of absolute right or wrong.

EDIT: Wait a tick...shinta if you're arguing that people's choices are the ultimate bearers of responsibility then what did Itou do wrong? Everything he did required another person to choose a response to him and as you've implied there are no certainties when dealing with how a person will react to another persons actions. If Sekai isn't responsible for Itou's reactions then is Itou responsible for the reactions of any of the other characters?

shinta|hikari

Sat, 10-06-2007, 02:18 PM

@Yuki - Sekai is not the ultimate cause simply because her action does not even directly lead to the events that happened. Those are caused directly by Itou's actions, and therefore he is liable for them.

Let me clarify... again.

Sekai is indeed at fault for tempting Itou with the practice sessions. But she cannot be blamed for Itou cheating on other women because that is something Itou decided to do. Indeed she started it, but it does not mean that she "caused" it. That is what Mfauli has been trying to prove since the beginning. He was trying to equate the start to the ultimate cause, which I have explained to be illogical.

If a person paid a bum on the street to kill you, then it is obvious that he is directly involved in the result, which is you dying (assuming it succeeds). This connection is not applicable with Sekai. Sekai tempting Itou may have directly resulted in him cheating on Katsura with Sekai, but this has no direct relation to him sleeping with Otome, Kiyora, the twin tail, the three girls, or becoming a jerk with no sense of responsibilty. Again, motive plays a role here (as I have mentioned before), but even wthout that, the connection I think is clear with this illustration.

The reason why I gave that argument against Mfauli is not to say that fault is removed due to the possibility of numerous responses of the other party, but rather to prove that there are numerous possibilities, since he equated "start" with "cause" (cause here being something that will defintely result in the said effect) as a basis in all of his arguments. I never said that Sekai was not responsible. I just stated that (following Mfauli's train of thought) Itou is partly at fault in that "practice" scenario for reacting that way. I think we have already established that all characters in this show are at fault one way or another, specifically because of their responses.

In short, Sekai may be partly to blame for Itou cheating on Katsura with Sekai (arguably the start of this mess), BUT, she is not the "cause" of the entire mess, as Mfauli has argued in all of his posts. As proof, I submit his statements here:

Then came Sekai and showed him that it´s okay to "train" with her, even though he had a girl friend at this point. You can blame Itou, at that point, for being stupid, BUT: You HAVE to blame Sekai for initiiating the whole mess. If she wasnt, nothing else would have happened.

It all started with Sekai, that´s a fact.
Everything else you wrote is correct, BUT: If Sekai wouldnt have let herself impregnated, there´d be no problem.
The later development of Itou is no matter to discuss, because he never would have become this person, if Sekai hadnt done what she did at this moment.
Damn feminist, sorry.

Itou was a normal boy, wanted a hot girl, whatever. He was by no means a bad person in the beginning of the show. Then came Sekai, and made him into a not-caring asshole. From her, he learned that it´s ok to fuck other girls though having a girl friend. After Sekai´s training lessons, Itou just couldnt find guiltyness in fucking other girls...it was normal to him, thanks to Sekai.
If Sekai hadnt done anything after the first making contact with Katsura, Itou would have either learned that some girls dont want to be touched that soon, or he would have broken up with Katsura...the end.
All the tragedy took place because of Sekai. So, yeah, im saying, Itou is the victim of the girls (except Katsura) and Katsura is the victim of everyone.

Sekai ruined Itou, and as an effect of that Itou did certain things wrong. That Itou acted wrong is clear, but the cause of all is Sekai, no matter how you try to spin this fact.

If Sekai´s offering of "training lessons" wasnt causative, then we have to assume that Itou was an i-fuck-everyone-i-want-sorry-at-my-girlfriend-person from the very beginning of the show. And i REALLY dont see any scenes before Sekai´s involvement that´d make me think this.

If A tells B that it´s ok to kiss/touch/fuck her even though B is in a relationship, then B will think that it is ok.

I think its quite obvious that he equates "start" with "cause" in all of these statements. And yet, he admits now that it was not really a cause, but merely a start, saying that Itou was just more prone to being influenced in such a way. This is the argument that I was trying to attack, and I think it is pretty much sunk now.

EDIT: @Yuki - I do understand your point, but even you have to admit that passing on responsibility has its limits. If the mother of the person who hired that bum to kill you was a bad mother that didnt teach her child morals, she still cannot be blamed for your death (and she cant be charged with murder either), even if her actions did make it more likely for her son to commit/plot murder, simply because 1) she never even thought such a thing would happen, 2) she is only guilty for being a bad mother, not a murderer.

You seem to misunderstand me a lot. I cant even begin to imagine how you can think that I am sacrificing emotions for logic, or that I believe that only concrete causations transfer responsibility. Responsibility is there (again with limits), but I wouldnt call it the "cause" as Mfauli did. I would suggest you try reading my posts while placing it in the context of the argument, instead of taking each statement as it is written and generalizing from them.

Ryllharu

Sat, 10-06-2007, 07:35 PM

I don't know if I'm just slow to catch this, but one reading of the word "Itou" can be the verb to dislike or hate, and most notably "to grudge." Certainly intentional, though I don't know if the kanji of his name is the same.

shinta|hikari

Sat, 10-06-2007, 09:39 PM

Thats interesting. On the other hand, one reading for his name Makoto is sincerity/truth/honesty. That is obviously not what Itou's character is. Maybe its a play on words in contrast to his character? A sort of irony or sarcasm perhaps?

Yukimura

Sat, 10-06-2007, 11:02 PM

@shinta: Several of your posts have been fairly easy for me to misunderstand which is why I keep seeking clarification. Your edit above did not offer me as much as I would have liked. I perceived that you disagreed with my assessment of your values, but then what are your values in your own words?

In the scenario I outlined above with the gun and the person who made the claim to the wielder that it was not loaded would you or would hold the person who said the gun was empty accountable for the death if the person with the gun pulled the trigger?

To respond to your mother scenario with more misunderstanding:
Your statement "She cannot be blamed for your death" is that supposed to mean legally blamed or that my family shouldn't be angry with her because of what the son she raised did? Because you mentioned not being charged with murder in the next phrase I am inclined to think your first comment is not talking about legal blame but some other kind of blame. Since you're probably tired of reading responses based on my misunderstandings I will wait for clarification before posting a response.

shinta|hikari

Sun, 10-07-2007, 03:48 AM

Most of my posts were answers to Mfauli's arguments, thus they were not explained in detail, since in depth explanation of my own views will only deviate from my criticisms of his views. I do understand why you misunderstood, and it is a good thing that you now ask for clarification before concluding on what I actually meant by what I said.

First, in your scenario about the loaded gun, obviously, the person that told him that the gun was not loaded was accountable for the death, since the person that actually shot it believed that the gun wont fire any bullets and therefore cannot hurt anyone. The problem with your analogy is that it does not apply to Sekai's scenario. It is technically a false analogy since the situation is much too different.

First off, it is quite obvious that if you tell someone that a gun is not loaded when it is, the danger that it will injure or kill someone greatly increases. That is in fact something that the person who lied should know, and therefore, any injury or death caused by his lie is his responsibility. However, part (though only a small part) of the responsibility does lie with the shooter, since he indeed didnt check. There is an obvious direct connection from the lie to the death, as causative factor and effect.

As I have already stated 3 or 4 times, Sekai's case (at least the case being argued by Mfauli that she is the "cause" of everything) is different. She may be held responsible for Itou cheating on Katsura with her as a result from her tempting practice sessions (though Itou is also partially responsible as with the shooter), she does not have anything to do with Itou sleeping with Kiyora, or the rest of the gang, as well as running away from his responsibilities. Sekai probably knew that Itou might go for her instead of Katsura because of her actions. She is then partly responsible for Itou cheating on Katsura in terms of motive. But consider this. Did Sekai even think that her actions could possibly cause Itou to become a sex jerk? Of course not. She simply thought that Itou chose her over Katsura since Itou loves her. So then she is not to blame for the following events in terms of motive.

If for example the shooter did shoot someone, and then suddenly realized that he loves to kill (despite knowing that killing is wrong, like how Itou knew that cheating and lying to women was wrong but kept doing it) and started killing huge numbers of people, those deaths can no longer be blamed to the person who lied, since that is obviously the twisted decision of the shooter himself. This basically means that the person that lied did start it, but he was not the "cause" of the entire killing spree, since the weight of the fault lies mainly on the choices of the shooter. I am not saying that the liar is fault-free (as Sekai is hardly fault-free either), but it is absurd to attribute events that Itou (shooter) initiated and conducted without (liar) Sekai's control to (liar) Sekai.

About the mother part, indeed aside from legal liability, there is also the moral issue. Of course the family CAN be angry at the mother for raising her son badly. But they cant be angry at her for killing their family member, since that was an act committed freely by the son. To clarify, I will ask you this: Who do you think the family members of the murdered person will feel more enmity at, the mother, or the killer son? Anger in this case, is reflective of who the victim's family believes to bear the responsibility of the crime. I argued this way since Mfauli was trying to prove that the main responsibility or fault lies with Sekai (which I believe to be untrue), as seen from his posts.

I hope this long post clarified everything. I actually think its pretty clear if you simply understand my previous posts in the context of the entire argument, and not in bits and pieces.

EDIT: IMO, "values" are too complex and its applications too varied depending on each situation to put into words, much less a few lines in a post. If you have to know my "values", I think the best way is to try to discern them from how I explained my views intead of asking for a text definition of it which will ultimately fail in capturing its essence. I do believe though, that simplifying "values" is never the best way of understanding them.

MFauli

Sun, 10-07-2007, 09:18 AM

she does not have anything to do with Itou sleeping with Kiyora, or the rest of the gang, as well as running away from his responsibilities

I more than enough explained that. We can consider Itou being a normal boy in the beginning of the series. Imagine him as a blank sheet of paper. Then Sekai helped him and the sheet of paper got some first information about "love". Then Katsura didnt want to have sex right after them becoming a pair. New information was written onto the sheet of paper ("girls need some work, you have to gain their trust"). BUT: Now Sekai comes and offers her training lessons. She interrupts the normal process of finding out what love/a love relationship is about, and adds another piece of information onto the sheet of paper: "It is okay to have sex with other girls, even when being in a relationship".
I admit it is kind of big interpretation, but if Itou wouldnt have gotten this information, he´d never have fucked Kiyora, Kato, or anyone else.

Sekai probably knew that Itou might go for her instead of Katsura because of her actions. She is then partly responsible for Itou cheating on Katsura in terms of motive. But consider this. Did Sekai even think that her actions could possibly cause Itou to become a sex jerk? Of course not.

Yeah, of course not, because she was stupid, ignorant and selfish. She didnt care about Katsura, and she didnt care about Itou. She wanted Itou, nothing else mattered.

If for example the shooter did shoot someone, and then suddenly realized that he loves to kill (despite knowing that killing is wrong, like how Itou knew that cheating and lying to women was wrong but kept doing it) and started killing huge numbers of people, those deaths can no longer be blamed to the person who lied, since that is obviously the twisted decision of the shooter himself.

And still the person who lied is the cause of everything. Whenever something like that happens, a limit is broken. You know, there are legal limits, like someone never had sex and says "i dont need", and once he had, he cant have enough. Or some says "i hate Sushi, raw fish is disgusting" then tries it and loves it. These are limits that break or dont break. But something or someone is always the cause. If someone is a killer deep within, you cant blame him, because under normal situations he´d never do anything bad. The cause is the cause and remains the source of everything that happens after certain actions.And before you come with an argument like "so Sekai´s mother is the cause for she raising Sekai", no. That´s a natural happening. You cant do anything about that. But i doubt Sekai letting fuck herself was a natural thing...well, maybe to herself, lol.

shinta|hikari

Sun, 10-07-2007, 10:43 AM

Haha, you are making a fool of yourself. I suggest you stop now.

No one is a blank sheet of paper. Itou was alive for more than a decade for crying out loud. Are you really trying to say that he knows absolutely 0 about anything (or specifically women)? You yourself admitted that Itou was more likely to react in such a manner to Sekai's practice sessions. Why is this so? Obviously because of his background, and maybe even partly to him being a naturally horny guy. How is being prone to becoming a jerk compared to someone else make him "blank"? It is amazing how you can even think that any person can be that innocent.

Ara. Sekai didnt care about Katsura? She held out for quite a long time even with Itou's insistence of having an affair with her (swimming scene etc.) BECAUSE she cared about Katsura, unlike Itou. She even explicitly stated, while rejecting Itou, that she does not want to hurt Katsura by cheating with Itou.

Ara. You completely missed the point of the argument. Now you even misconstrued my argument for being essentialist (as in saying that there is such a thing as a "killer deep within") You didnt even explain the contradiction in your reasoning that I exposed.

Causative may be that what follows A HAS TO be B, so no other possibility. What you want to express is that it´s not a given that Itou had to react the way he did, therefore it´s not causative, right?
Well, i can agree with that, but: The probability of Itou´s reaction was rather high, if you think about his state in the beginning of the series (where he just wanted sex, Sekai gave him that, thus the reactino was quite obvious).

But Itou being a person that more likely reacts "that" way doesnt take away the fact, that Sekai started it. And you never had an argument to answer that matter.
As seen here, you admitted before that Sekai is not the "cause" but merely the start of the situation before. I have already argued that starting the situation is different from causing the whole mess, which you are asserting. You did not even argue against my argument, but merely gave statements that have no justification. Like this:

And still the person who lied is the cause of everything. The cause is the cause and remains the source of everything that happens after certain actions.

Your argument in that previous post merely argued that Sekai’s actions started the situation (which even I admit in all of my previous posts). It does not prove that Sekai’s actions “caused” everything else that happened. Until you manage to do this, you are simply being a sore loser that cannot admit that he cannot defend his ideas.

If you cant get it after such a detailed and clear explanation, I am forced to believe that you are simply incapable of understanding logical arguments.

EDIT: about the Sekai's mother part of your rant, are you trying to say that raising a child that has no morals is a "natural thing" and that you cannot do anything about it? Well, for one, the mother could have raised her better. And no, I did not even think of such an argument, since it is absolutely idiotic, and thinking that someone will even reply in that way is idiotic as well. What do you mean by a "natural thing" anyway? (please answer this, I am genuinely curious)

Ryllharu

Sun, 10-07-2007, 11:59 AM

Haha, you are making a fool of yourself. I suggest you stop now.
I think this applies to the both of you. You've both begun to repeat arguments over and over.

Sekai did genuinely care for Katsura as a friend...to a point. MFauli is partially correct in saying that she didn't care because we know that Sekai befriended Katsura in an effort to get closer to Itou, after inadvertently seeing his cell phone wallpaper. She wanted to make it up to him after "ruining his love charm" on the first day.

But Shinta is also partially correct. Sekai did start up a genuine friendship with Katsura. Not necessarily a close one (as she was quick to snap up her chance with Itou), but one nonetheless. Sekai was very concerned with having Makoto tell Katsura that it was over between them, and now he was with her. She demanded it over and over, and Makoto kept lying to her.

This series is based off an ero-game. You need to know ALL the details from EVERY path before you can make very specific points about one character or another. We only got the smallest snapshot of Sekai's background. She does not seem to have the most pleasant relationship with her mother. Perhaps we would have learned much more about that if the series had followed a "Good End" path. Anime adaptations of ero-games and love simulators have to appease all fans of the games at least to a point. So time must be spent on Setsuna, Otome, Hikari, etc. We're probably missing quite a lot.

MFauli

Sun, 10-07-2007, 12:36 PM

[QUOTE=shinta|hikari]
No one is a blank sheet of paper. Itou was alive for more than a decade for crying out loud. Are you really trying to say that he knows absolutely 0 about anything (or specifically women)?/QUOTE]

Yes.
That´s why he was so shy and didnt talk to Katsura in the train.
That´s why he was so fixated on having sex, because he never had had sex before.
In terms of "love" Itou was a blank sheet of paper. And Sekai ruined this innocent sheet, therefore being the cause.

Im ignoring the rest of your posting as it´s repetition, nothing new at all.
Only one thing: Yeah, there probably was a higher chance for Itou reacting the way he did, but that´s what you call an individual mind. Noone is the same. But only because some have a higher chance of reacting in a certain way doesnt make them worse persons.

shinta|hikari

Sun, 10-07-2007, 11:42 PM

@Mfauli -

But only because some have a higher chance of reacting in a certain way doesnt make them worse persons.

What can I say... Baka?

Hmm... Homicidal maniacs have a higher chance of killing someone just because they look at them the "wrong way" (or some other unfathomable reason). Following your argument, they are not "worse persons" at all. Ara.

You just said that everyone has an "individual mind" and can thus react in their own way. Saying that Itou is a "blank sheet of paper on love" that will automatically act out whatever is written on it is contradicting your other statement, since it removes his ability to think by himself. BTW, being shy and being fixated on sex is not being blank or ignorant of anything concerning love. It is a normal thing for some young guys.

@Ryll - the arguments we made were simply based on the anime. Anything concerning the Ero-game is of course not included. It may be the "incomplete" version, but nothing prevents us from making arguments and conclusions based on that alone. The reason why I kept repeating the argument is because he keeps ignoring it. I, on the other hand, have addressed everything he said. It is very unfair to equate me with someone like that.

BTW, Mfauli is not partially correct about Sekai, since his statement implied that Sekai didnt care about Katsura at all, and that all she cared about is herself. How can you resolve the idea that both of us are partially correct if his statement is a complete negation of mine and vice versa? If mine is the least bit true, then his statement is completely false, since he generalized, while I gave leeway implying that Sekai did care about Katsura, but not enough to keep her hands off Itou.

I do agree that this has to end, and seeing that Mfauli seems to be stuck and cant respond to the last counter argument, as well as having contradicted himself at least twice, I will let it rest here.