Naruto Chapter 361

[conquistaDan]

Thought you guys might want to see these

Spoiler Pics

http://img1.sunderpicture.com/guest/0583480_post-2-1183546712.jpg


and

http://img1.sunderpicture.com/guest/6a2a097_post-2-1183546724.jpg

[Idealistic]

Picture 1 looks like Deidara is caught in another genjustsu.

What if it's........ A MS genjutsu!!!

[Assertn]

If it was MS then the 3 dots would all be connected

[pandacon]

Raw and translation at Mangahelpers: http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14947

[Strider]

I am liking the black background with the emphasis on the Sharingan looming over the character of Deidara. It has a very eerie feel to it, and I am hoping when it is animated it will be accompanied by some fitting music.

It definitely seems like Deidara's caught by some form of Doujutsu. Guess that eye of his wasn't all that trained, after all.

[deadlydreamx]

[BS] Naruto 361 (http://bsmanga.com/download.php?file=66)

[big_ac]

Excellent action this week. Sasuke's analytical abilities appear to be on par with those of Shikamaru. Everyone's prediction that Deidara may go all suicide-bomber on us my turn out to be right after all. I have to admit that I was initially not a big Deidara fan (Terracosmo, before you reach through the internet and kill me, let me finish), but seeing the action in these last few chapters has really changed my opinion of him, as both a fighter and a character. I think that it is a shame we are going to lose him so soon after discovering how cool he really is.

And finally, because -- as everyone knows by now -- everything reminds me of Yu Yu Hakusho, I have to say that Deidara is basically Karasu of Team Toguro. The fight has gone, for the most part, identically to Karasu's only televised match, in which he battles Kurama. Karasu, master of explosives, goes toe to toe with the best strategist in the show who reveals previously unseen versions of his famous techniques, even after Karasu resorts to numerous invisible bombs.

This should sound familiar by now

The fight ends with a failed suicide bomb attempt by Karasu. All these similarities lead me to only one conclusion. Deidara will employ the same tactic, to the same effect.

[itadakimasu]

BS pwns.... post to be edited after i read :)

kukukuku sasuke looks evil at the end ;) I thought one of them would have been finished off this chapter but the fight continues.

[Yukimura]

Excellent chapter. I had almost forgotten they introduced nature affinity in Naruto but here it comes flying back to the forefront of battle strategy. This ep demonstrated one of the best things about Naruto fights not involving Naruto, there is strategy involved in addition to guts and luck. If Sasuke didn't know Chidori and wasn't lightning based he'd likely be dead, regardless of how smart or analytical his Sharingan makes him.

However one thing that was a bit of a stretch was him being able to see into his own blood vessels, that seems like more of a Byakugan ability than a Sharingan one. I know they said the Sharinag evolved from the Byakugan way back when, but if Sasuke is going to slowly unlock Byakugan abilities in addition to his Sharingan ones then he's going to be way too over powered.

However as it stands now he's all tired out and even after he beats/survives the suicide of Diedara Tobi is still lurking around nearby...

[chet_chetty]

It seems Sasuke can see chakra no matter what it is bound in, earth, flesh, etc because his Sharingan gives color to chakra. It's an ability specialized to Sharingan rather than Sharingan conveniently adopting Byakugan's seeing abilities.

Deidara has come off as simply desperate in the last 3 chapters. Is it me or do heros win when they resort to desperation while desperation generally signals the end for a villain?

See how the Sasuke-haters tumble.

[Assertn]

Yeah...sasuke seeing his bloodstream bothered me as well, but I'm just going to attribute it to sasuke seeing deidara's chakra from within his own body.

[Idealistic]

I'm guessing the fight will probably end by next chapter. Either one of them dies, or they are saved by someone else.

Just out of curiousity, what is lightning's weakness? I don't think it even has one in pokemon? lol.

[KCMmmmm]

Well, it is supposedly explained that Sasuke can see the color of chakra.....which should still be a Byakugan ability, I think. Whatever, this was a very cool chapter. I wish Kishimoto would be kind enough to show us all of the element seals, so we can start noticing these strategies before they explain them. It's like reading a mystery book, and trying to guess the end, when they've left out some important clues, so the reader cannot possibly guess. Scooby Doo never did that, so Naruto should give us some chance (originally it WAS possible to notice these things in Naruto).

Well, anyway, Sasuke kicked ass, and it wasn't because he was all-powerful at all, but because he managed to use good strategy. It definitely looks as if the fight will end next chapter, probably with Deidara as the defeated. I wonder if Sasuke has learned to control the other elements. His ability to recognize a hand seal which isn't fire or lightening suggests that he's studied, but now I wouldn't be too surprised to see him use another element. What if: Deidara used a wind element to conquer Chidori, and then Sasuke countered with fire for the win? Eh? Nah.....it'll be a suicide bomb finale, definitely.

[Death BOO Z]

damn, Deidora almost had him... so close.
at least it was a good chapter, with the elements affinity and all, which lessens my sadness over sasuke not dying.

well, there's still hope, Sasuke is really out of juice by now, tobi can come in and bust his ass, since he's probably air and water (just the general glitch i'm getting from him), at least force Sasuke to run away.

[Assertn]

Just out of curiousity, what is lightning's weakness? I don't think it even has one in pokemon? lol.

It's wind. Hence:
Fireball > Wind Rasengan-Shuriken > Chidori

[Raven]

Just out of curiousity, what is lightning's weakness? I don't think it even has one in pokemon? lol.

In Pokemon isn't it rock/earth?

I love how these types of battles always end with each side giving a long winded explanation of how they arrived at that point and the strategies they used. Just for once I'd like to see:

"But.... how did you know? :O "

"Not telling, STFU."

A suicide bomb is sooo obvious next chapter.

[Konohamaru]

I'm guessing the fight will probably end by next chapter. Either one of them dies, or they are saved by someone else.

Just out of curiousity, what is lightning's weakness? I don't think it even has one in pokemon? lol.

For naruto it's wind. For pokemon it's ground but is also weak to grass. Saying that, it's really weird how lightning is strong against earth, I don't see the logic behind it. It seems in Naruto the weaknesses are opposite to that of pokemon. Then again I can't see how wind is strong against lightning. Lightning should just go straight down and cut through wind. Confusion!!!

Back on topic, Cool chapter again, it's strange now, I still don't really like deidara that much. Sure he's done some clever tricks with explosions but I've seen better tactics to use from other animes. Sasuke really did have a hard time against Deidara which surpised me. This fight says to me that Deidara probably could've beaten Orochimaru now if they had to fight each other. Heck I think even Sasori could've won since Deidara was his subordinate and you can't genjutsu a puppet. Interesting fight, can't wait to see next weeks one now. It'll either end up like Yuyu Hakusho or Tobi will step in and interfere and maybe we get to see some action from the other members of Team Snake :cool:

[ChaosK]

It's wind. Hence:
Fireball > Wind Rasengan-Shuriken > Chidori

I don't understand how earth is weak to lightning...since when can the dirt be electrocuted? Pokemon had it better. :p

Nice chapter though.

Now with Deidara facing death, I really hope Tobi steps in since I wanna see what he can do.

[Assertn]

Everyone insists that deidara will suicide-bomb...but how can you be sure that sasuke can't pull enough chakra to just diffuse it like all of deidara's other bombs?

Deidara already pulled the suicide-bomb feint against Kakash/Gai's teams, so I doubt we'll see it again.

[Death BOO Z]

well, he chidoried himself, which probably hurt him quite a bit, add that to the entire fight (massive sharingan usage, curse seal blowing apart as well as summoning wing-replacment snakes, and the general ass whipping Dei has handed him) and it's quite possible that Sasuke doens't have much chackra left either, I don't think we'll see another chidori from him (if he could have thrown one out, he should have used it instead of just punching Dei).
he defintally can't win against a 2nd akatsuki member now, and i have a hard time believeing sugietsu and juggo can win against one on thier own (at least on thier current level).

I'd like to see a scene with Tobi coming in with slow motion handclaps and says something mysterious to Sasuke or to the snake team, and then goes off with Dei (or kills him and eats out the brains, whatever fits) leaving sasuke not victorious and giving us some new questions about him, the leader and everything else. maybe tie it up with the weird girl from sasuke's team, god knows her name).

as for light-earth, god knows how this works, as far as i'm aware, earth sucks in electricity, which is the exact opposite of weakness, can someone remind of the two circles?
the good one is the circle(y) thing of wood feeds the fire, fire gives birth to metal and stuff, and the bad is the pentgram thing, where wood takes in the water, which covered the flames and co.
but can someone post the exact dinamics?

[BananaFob]

massive sharingan usage

Regular Sharingan for a Uchiha user takes no or little chakra to use.

As for the Earth-Lightning thing, yeah, I'm pretty confused about it as well. My science is really bad, but here's what I think:


A bolt of lightning can travel at a speed of 45 km/s (kilometres per second) (100,000 mph, 160,000 km/h). [4] It can reach temperatures approaching 28,000 °C (50,000 °F), hot enough to fuse soil or sand into glass channels.[5]

An average bolt of negative lightning carries an electric current of 40 kA (kiloamperes), although some bolts can be up to 120 kA, and transfers a charge of 5 coulombs and 500 MJ (megajoules), or enough energy to power a 100 watt lightbulb for just under two months. The voltage depends on the length of the bolt: with the dielectric breakdown of air being 3 million volts per meter, this works out at about one billion volts for a 300m (1,000 feet) lightning bolt.

First of all, that speed looks really fast (because it's light). Then, the obvious one factored here is the temperature...28,000°C. It can melt everything including the Earth's core made of iron (which is 5000°C). Of course, this fact might be wrong because Wikipedia isn't correct of all the time. Now that is a few thousand feet above us, so we don't feel anything from it. However, if you were to somehow convert it into Naruto version, Sasuke would be able to turn his body or chakra into a miniature-lightning technique that isn't as violent as mentioned on Wikipedia, but similar. Besides, because they weren't on the ground (unless the Clay Bird is accounted for), I guess you can say that Sasuke could have turned his own body into a Chidori so that he could neutralize the clays inside their body?

Not really sure about this considering it's a bad 5-minute theory I came up with, but that's what I think (which doesn't make any sense, considering lightning is neutralized once it hits the ground).

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning

[Yukimura]

@BananaFob lightning isn't actually light, but it is the expression of same forces that govern light and it produces light. On that note 45 km/s isn't that fast compared to actual light, which moves ~300,000 km/s

I for one don't think it's healthy to put much thought into the rock-paper-scissors elemental circle. If I remember correctly in Naruto land:

Fire beats Wind beats Lightning beats Earth Beats Water beats Fire
Fire loses to Water loses to Earth loses to Lightning loses to Wind loses to Fire

I think Kishi was going for balance first and reasonablilty second. Many of the reactions don't make sense or would make better sense backwards, but Naruto doens't take place in the real world, it takes place in Naruto world, so our rules only really apply until the author tells us that they don't in his world.

[Terracosmo]

And finally, because -- as everyone knows by now -- everything reminds me of Yu Yu Hakusho, I have to say that Deidara is basically Karasu of Team Toguro. The fight has gone, for the most part, identically to Karasu's only televised match, in which he battles Kurama. Karasu, master of explosives, goes toe to toe with the best strategist in the show who reveals previously unseen versions of his famous techniques, even after Karasu resorts to numerous invisible bombs.

This should sound familiar by now

The fight ends with a failed suicide bomb attempt by Karasu. All these similarities lead me to only one conclusion. Deidara will employ the same tactic, to the same effect.

And hilariously, Karasu is actually my favorite character from Yu Yu Hakusho. WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT!

As a sidenote the character I enjoyed most in Fullmetal Alchemist was Kimbley (the one who blew stuff up all the time). I don't really know what the fuck is with me and bombs/explosions but damn it gets me on.

[Assertn]

And hilariously, Karasu is actually my favorite character from Yu Yu Hakusho. WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT!

As a sidenote the character I enjoyed most in Fullmetal Alchemist was Kimbley (the one who blew stuff up all the time). I don't really know what the fuck is with me and bombs/explosions but damn it gets me on.

Well then in that case you must be a big for of Mr. 5 as well:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/71/Mr5piccie.jpg

[elmojo]

well, deidara is screwed , uh does akatsuki know about the afinity thing or is it just a konoha taught tradition

i really hope there is no suicide bomb, deidara should just run away and get back to akatsuki and have the leader finish him off for his incompetence

[Idealistic]

well, deidara is screwed , uh does akatsuki know about the afinity thing or is it just a konoha taught tradition

i really hope there is no suicide bomb, deidara should just run away and get back to akatsuki and have the leader finish him off for his incompetence

haha... That would be cool. I want to see Zero kill one of his own men.

Man... I really hope Deidara dies sometimes soon. Hidan and Kakazu (I think those were there names) were actually some pretty interesting Akatsuki members. Sucks they had to die so soon and Deidara(the least interesting one imo) is the one that lives for so long.

[February]

well, he chidoried himself, which probably hurt him quite a bit, add that to the entire fight (massive sharingan usage, curse seal blowing apart as well as summoning wing-replacment snakes, and the general ass whipping Dei has handed him) and it's quite possible that Sasuke doens't have much chackra left either, I don't think we'll see another chidori from him (if he could have thrown one out, he should have used it instead of just punching Dei).
he defintally can't win against a 2nd akatsuki member now, and i have a hard time believeing sugietsu and juggo can win against one on thier own (at least on thier current level).


Despite your reputation on this forum for being biased against Sasuke, i agree that Sasuke is worn out and low on chakra probably. As someone else said before, I dont think using Sharingan alot will make much difference because it takes relatively little to no chakra for a Uchiha to use it. 'Cursed seal' blowing apart? what are you talking about?

As for assuming Suigetsu and Juugo cant beat an Akatsuki, we havent even seen their strengths properly yet? Tell me their "current level"

[Death BOO Z]

i meant curse seal wings blowing appart sorry,
didn't know i already have a reputation for being biased against Sasuke, does everyone know I also hate Shino and Kiba?
Sasuke also used his sharingan for genjutsu and other moves, which probably take up more chackra than just looking around with it, i don't believe he could fight for this long and still have enough juice for another fight.

for my assumptions on Sugi and Juugi, there's no real evidence of thier strenghts yet, other than the fact that Juugi doesn't always fight (he's got the wussy side of him) and that Suugi is weaker than Sasuke.
Tobi, while acting stupid sometimes, still took out one of the tailed monsters (three tails, if i'm not mistaken) in one strike, and it probably wasn't a cheap ass trick like Hidan zombie circle.
Besides, tobi is an adult akatsuki member, Suugi and Juugi are teenagers who needed Sasuke to bust them out of jail. they need to show out thier skills at least once before they're ready to fight an akatsuki.

[mage]

Why the fuck are you calling them Suugi and Juugi? That's just annoying. You know their names are Suigetsu and Juugo, yes?

[Assertn]

Tobi, while acting stupid sometimes, still took out one of the tailed monsters (three tails, if i'm not mistaken) in one strike, and it probably wasn't a cheap ass trick like Hidan zombie circle.

Why do people keep saying this? Tobi ran away and Deidara used his bombs to take out the 3 tailed.

[Someonemanr]

In the chapter where that goes down Tobi says something along the lines of "Did you see my new awesome one hit KO jutsu?"

Least that's what I remember, and Deidara replies along the lines of it being a tailed beast without a jinchurriki (ok, I'm pretty sure I just butchered the spelling of that) so that it was just all power and no brains, easier to take out.

I gotta say I like Deidara a lot after all this, he's shown that he's a pretty brilliant strategist, oh and as for the Sharingan not using much Chakra for an uchiha, I'm not sure if that's true, It takes less of a toll on them then say on someone like Kakashi who's not supposed to have it in his body, but it still wears them out, especially if they use it for specific techniques, such as Itachi's Mangekyou deteriorating his eyes.

What I'm really wondering, is how much goddamn chakra does Sasuke have now? When he first learned Chidori he had a max of about 2.5 a day, and Kakashi said that he could only do 4 himself, because combining the Chidori with the Sharingan explodes chakra througout your body using it up very quickly. Now granted when Sasuke whent level 2 he gained a considerable amount of chakra, and he's had 2 and a half years to train, but still, he's managed to use Chidori somewhere around 10 times in this fight alone? Perhaps the needles and the current type moves don't use up as much chakra? Or I guess he's just a chakra monster now like Naruto.

[mage]

such as Itachi's Mangekyou deteriorating his eyes.

*sigh*

It does not affect his eye sight..

[KCMmmmm]

In the chapter where that goes down Tobi says something along the lines of "Did you see my new awesome one hit KO jutsu?"

Least that's what I remember, and Deidara replies along the lines of it being a tailed beast without a jinchurriki (ok, I'm pretty sure I just butchered the spelling of that) so that it was just all power and no brains, easier to take out.

I gotta say I like Deidara a lot after all this, he's shown that he's a pretty brilliant strategist, oh and as for the Sharingan not using much Chakra for an uchiha, I'm not sure if that's true, It takes less of a toll on them then say on someone like Kakashi who's not supposed to have it in his body, but it still wears them out, especially if they use it for specific techniques, such as Itachi's Mangekyou deteriorating his eyes.

What I'm really wondering, is how much goddamn chakra does Sasuke have now? When he first learned Chidori he had a max of about 2.5 a day, and Kakashi said that he could only do 4 himself, because combining the Chidori with the Sharingan explodes chakra througout your body using it up very quickly. Now granted when Sasuke whent level 2 he gained a considerable amount of chakra, and he's had 2 and a half years to train, but still, he's managed to use Chidori somewhere around 10 times in this fight alone? Perhaps the needles and the current type moves don't use up as much chakra? Or I guess he's just a chakra monster now like Naruto.

I think the point is that he's become so much more adept as using chakra efficiently that he now uses less chakra for the same old moves. If he could (for example) double his chakra efficiency, then he would be able to use 5 chidori even without increasing his max capacity or using the cursed seal. This is just speculation.....but we know it is possible to "get more out of your chakra". Anyway, Sasuke hasn't been using the Sharingan the entire fight, has he? I was under the impression that he's used it only when he had to.....the same as he's been using the cursed seal, in bursts. Either way, if Deidara can train his normal eye to deflect Genjutsu, then I'm sure Sasuke can train his Sharingan-empowered eyes to drain less chakra. Itachi has his on almost 100% of the time after all....does he expect people to randomly attack him if he relaxes?

[The Heretic Azazel]

does he expect people to randomly attack him if he relaxes?

If I were Itachi, I would.

[Assertn]

In the chapter where that goes down Tobi says something along the lines of "Did you see my new awesome one hit KO jutsu?"

Least that's what I remember, and Deidara replies along the lines of it being a tailed beast without a jinchurriki (ok, I'm pretty sure I just butchered the spelling of that) so that it was just all power and no brains, easier to take out.
You basically made all this up just now.

[Splash!]

^^ No he didn't make all that up. Go reread Chapter 318. Someonemanr is right on the mark about both Tobi using a special jutsu on the 3 tail as well as what Deidrara said.

Edit (Below): Yes, We don't know whether Tobi finished him off, but he did use some special jutsu (apparently powerful)

[BananaFob]

If I remember correctly in the anime during the Naruto-Sasuke fight, Sasuke was thinking to himself that as long as he had those eyes, he wouldn't use up much chakra.

Here's the page from the manga. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v683/xSharinganx/naruto_ch230_p10.jpg)

[mage]

^^ No he didn't make all that up. Go reread Chapter 318. Someonemanr is right on the mark about both Tobi using a special jutsu on the 3 tail as well as what Deidrara said.
There's no indication of Tobi actually being the one to take it out. The only attack shown is one of Deidara's bombs in 317, then in 318 Tobi is standing on top of it declaring that it was nothing for him. Afterwards, Deidara states that Tobi would have had no chance if it weren't for his explosives. It seems to me like Deidara beat it up with some bombs and let Tobi get the final blow.

[Assertn]

No......it sounds to me like the 3 tails was Tobi's target, and his victory lied in him getting Deidara to do all the work for him.

[mage]

That's pretty much what I said.

[Raven]

In the version I have, Deidara says something along the lines of "hey, don't forget I helped out, it wasn't all you". So it sounds like Tobi had the major role. But oh well, not really important.

[Someonemanr]

Well, I'm just going off of whatever translations I've read, I've noticed that amongst the different scanlators they can vary, but that was the jist of what I got from it, that Tobi used some Jutsu to finish the 3-tails off and Deidara was scolding him because he didn't do all the work and because it wasn't a skilled opponent.

If I was gonna make something up it probably would have been a lot more random then that ;0).

Also, as for the eyesight, that's just what I remember, Kakashi saying something along the lines of "how bad has your eyesight gotten?" may have been a mistranslation, regardless we know the mangekyou takes a considerable toll on Itachi, he used it twice and had to retreat, Kakashi uses it and it puts him in the hospital.

The page shown where Sasuke was talking about conserving chakra, I think he was more referring to how he could minimize his movements since he could accurately predict Naruto's. If you don't know what's coming you have to keep moving and expend more energy being ready for anything, if you know exactly what's going to happen you only need the energy neccessary to react to that given situation.

If Tobi does turn out to be Obito, I can't see him being much more powerful then Kakashi, he is a natural blooded Uchiha, so he most likely had great potential, but I don't really buy him becoming some sort of amazing ninja after what he was shown as previously, especially considering half his body was destroyed.

Although if the whole "one hit KO jutsu" on the 3-tails was true, then it makes him a powerhouse who apparently can take a direct swordswipe and be unphased. So who knows what Tobi will turn out to be.

[itadakimasu]

*sigh*

It does not affect his eye sight..

I know this has been discussed at length in a couple other threads... but i don't think either side of the argument has anything absolute. when i read those scenes and saw them play out in the anime i still got the same assertion that itachi's vision has gone to hell from overuse of mangeykou(sp?) Although itachi's response in the scene is hard to tell since he was not actually there but rather using a clone technique.

-I'm kinda confused as to why sasuke had to actually chidori himself, i would think that doing his full body chidori would have done the trick w\ the C4.

I dont think deidara has anything left up his sleeve, great chapter though since i cant wait to read the next one.

[mage]

It doesn't affect his eyesight. If it's even the correct translation, it's a metaphor.

[Carnage]

Im not so sure. At first I thought it was just a metaphor, but if you watch episode 13 when Itachi and Kakashi are having their little chat, at around the 9:55 mark Kakashi asks him "how bad has your eyesight become" and Itachi says "kakashi, you couldnt have...".

If Itachi were thinking that Kakashi "couldn't have" achieved the Mangyekou, then this implies that Kakashi was correct in describing the consequences of using the technique. But this is in the anime, so Im not sure its completely legit. Just my 2 cents :p

[toonice714]

Well just to add fire to this small tangent about the MS, The manga (ch 257 pgs 8-9) kakashi says that the MS screws up your eyesight. So read it. I dont know why this is even being debated b/c it is extremely clear. Also kakashi has a MS so why wouldn't he be right.
Anyways I cant wait for this fight to be over. Its about time that somebody should win. I wanna see shino get some screen time.

[Assertn]

Im not so sure. At first I thought it was just a metaphor, but if you watch episode 13 when Itachi and Kakashi are having their little chat, at around the 9:55 mark Kakashi asks him "how bad has your eyesight become" and Itachi says "kakashi, you couldnt have...".

If Itachi were thinking that Kakashi "couldn't have" achieved the Mangyekou, then this implies that Kakashi was correct in describing the consequences of using the technique. But this is in the anime, so Im not sure its completely legit. Just my 2 cents :p
Or it could imply that Kakashi had stolen MS from Itachi right from under his nose and he was blind to have not noticed sooner.

[animus]

Or it could imply that Kakashi had stolen MS from Itachi right from under his nose and he was blind to have not noticed sooner.

Um, I HIGHLY doubt that.

[Carnage]

Or it could imply that Kakashi had stolen MS from Itachi right from under his nose and he was blind to have not noticed sooner.

Either way, it implies that Itachi knows Kakashi has the Mangyekou based on the side effects Kakashi mentioned.

[JaySee]

Well just to add fire to this small tangent about the MS, The manga (ch 257 pgs 8-9) kakashi says that the MS screws up your eyesight. So read it. I dont know why this is even being debated b/c it is extremely clear. Also kakashi has a MS so why wouldn't he be right.
Anyways I cant wait for this fight to be over. Its about time that somebody should win. I wanna see shino get some screen time.

:rolleyes: This right here clears up the stupid metaphor nonsense. It's not a metaphor! He clearly says it's a risk to his eyes before the so-called metaphor. MS hurts your eyes.

[mage]

What the hell are you people talking about? There is no logic in any of your arguments.

[JaySee]

From Inane Scanlation Ch. 257 pg. 8
Kakashi: Besides the fact that it requires a considerable amount of chakra, it also presents a great risk to your eyes as well doesn't it... Itachi.
Nevermind the bad punctuation. This right here says it hurts your eyes.



From Inane Scanlation Ch. 257 pg. 9
Kakashi: How far has... "plink" your eyesight deteriorated?

NOT A DAMN METAPHOR!!!

[Assertn]

Nope....terribly insufficient as proof.

Conversely, let's think of it this way:

1) Kakashi says MS takes a toll on the user.
2) Itachi is impressed by Kakashi's observation.
3) Kakashi asks how bad Itachi's eyesight has become.
4) Itachi freaks out.

Now, if we were to assume that JaySee was right, then #3 does not present anything that #1 doesn't present, right? So why would Itachi's #4 be so dramatically different from #2? It just doesn't make any sense!

However, if we consider #3 to be metaphorical in that it implies Itachi has failed to observe something important, then it does become new information, which justifies the drastically different #4 response.

In addition to this, I find that the confirmation that Kakashi does, in fact, have MS when he used it on Deidara further supports my point, because it allowed us to know with absolute certainty that #4 was a foreshadowing to Kakashi's new ability. With that said, where does the connection exist between #4 and Kakashi accusing Itachi of going blind?

Sometimes I think you guys need to take some basic courses in literary techniques.

[JaySee]

Hmm... maybe because... #1 is in the form of a QUESTION. Hence my comment about bad punctuation. Itachi believes he is being asked. #3 is where Kakashi is revealing he already knows the answer. Looks like you need to learn basic reading comprehension before jumping to literary techniques.

[Assertn]

Hmm... maybe because... #1 is in the form of a QUESTION. Hence my comment about bad punctuation. Itachi believes he is being asked. #3 is where Kakashi is revealing he already knows the answer. Looks like you need to learn basic reading comprehension before jumping to literary techniques.

Um....what? Here I actually come up with probably the most micro-analyzed interpretation of the exchange and you reply with this nonsense?
I feel like I'm wasting my time here.

Animus, you seem halfway there to make some sort of rational counter-argument, right? Care to challenge my post?

[JaySee]

Um....what?
EXACTLY... go back and take some reading comprehension.

If you had some basic understanding, you'd get that #3 reveals a lot #1 DID NOT. Hence the reaction difference between #2 and #4. :rolleyes: It doesn't make any sense to you because you either have bad reading comprehension, or no common sense.

[Assertn]

EXACTLY... go back and take some reading comprehension.

If you had some basic understanding, you'd get that #3 reveals a lot #1 DID NOT. Hence the reaction difference between #2 and #4. :rolleyes: It doesn't make any sense to you because you either have bad reading comprehension, or no common sense.
Lols, you're a fuckin retard, JaySee.

Do you honestly think Kakashi was trying to ask Itachi a question in #1, just because it ended with a question mark? You're saying #1 sounded like Kakashi had no idea if MS hurts a person's eyes and pretends to be genuinely curious? Itachi's response in #2 even stated something along the lines of "I'm impressed you learned so much from just one confrontation with it." So why would Itachi not think that Kakashi knew?

Screw the literary comprehension, you need to learn basic social interaction, son. This has become highly lollable. I can't even tell if I'm supposed to be taking you seriously or not.

[BananaFob]

Whether or not that Mangekyou Sharingan takes a toll on the eyes, I doubt it will play a part in the storyline. If we had a Sharingan-less Itachi going around, Sasuke would kill him faster and won't prove much of a fight to us. :(

[Splash!]

Nope....terribly insufficient as proof.

Conversely, let's think of it this way:

1) Kakashi says MS takes a toll on the user.
2) Itachi is impressed by Kakashi's observation.
3) Kakashi asks how bad Itachi's eyesight has become.
4) Itachi freaks out.

Now, if we were to assume that JaySee was right, then #3 does not present anything that #1 doesn't present, right? So why would Itachi's #4 be so dramatically different from #2? It just doesn't make any sense!

However, if we consider #3 to be metaphorical in that it implies Itachi has failed to observe something important, then it does become new information, which justifies the drastically different #4 response.

In addition to this, I find that the confirmation that Kakashi does, in fact, have MS when he used it on Deidara further supports my point, because it allowed us to know with absolute certainty that #4 was a foreshadowing to Kakashi's new ability. With that said, where does the connection exist between #4 and Kakashi accusing Itachi of going blind?

Sometimes I think you guys need to take some basic courses in literary techniques.

But here's the thing , with all that being said, you seem to be ignoring #1 and #2 alot and focusing alot more on the sudden change in Itachi's expression in between #3 and #4.

Ch 257, p. 8
Kakashi: Not only does it use up a huge amount of chakra, It would seem the jutsu carries a great deal of risk for your eyes too, doesnt it ... Itachi.
Itachi: Having fought me once, you have made quite the analysis
Courtesy Shannaro scanlation.

This establishes that Itachi's eyes are indeed at risk, regardless of what type. I hope we can all agree with that.

Then this risk can either be Itachi going blind from using MS OR something else.

Case 1: Itachi's eyes are at risk in some other fashion and he isn't going blind

If this is the case, then what you suggest makes perfect sense and the blindness should be interpreted as just a metaphor and nothing else.

Case 2: Itachi is going blind from using MS

Sub-case 1: Itachi already believes that when Kakashi first mentions the risk to his eyes, he is referring to blindness.

In this situation, the sudden change in expression b/w #3 and #4 can once again be the result of Kakashi using #3 to suggest that he has acquired MS from right under his nose, and at the same time also taunting Itachi on his condition.

Sub-case 2: Itachi believes that all Kakashi knows is that MS puts your eyes at risk.

Then the sudden change between #3 and #4 can be result of Itachi being astonished that Kakashi knows the exact nature of of his problem (which can only be known through personal experience and Kakashi having acquired the MS himself)

Does all this definitively prove Itachi going blind? Absolutely not.
But it does suggest that Itachi going blind is a possible outcome and does not, in any way, conflict with the exact nature of this conversation between Itachi and Kakashi.

I think MS posing a serious risk to Itachi's eyes is an undisputed fact. And when most of us think of such a risk, we think of blindness. The fact that kakashi later mentions blindness, be it metaphorically or otherwise, seems to solidify the idea a bit more for me.

[KCMmmmm]

Whether or not that Mangekyou Sharingan is takes a toll on the eyes, I doubt it will play a part in the storyline. If we had a Sharingan-less Itachi going around, Sasuke would kill him faster and won't prove much of a fight to us. :(

While SPLASH! made an excellent argument as to why MS damages your eyes, I think Banana here has the right idea: I seriously doubt it will play into the storyline significantly. If MS DOES pose a risk to your eyes (and it quite likely does) then Kakashi was only mentioning it as a way of foreshadowing it before he uses it in his fight against Deidara. In which case, everyone is right, in one way or another.

[JaySee]

Lols, you're a fuckin retard, JaySee.

Do you honestly think Kakashi was trying to ask Itachi a question in #1, just because it ended with a question mark? You're saying #1 sounded like Kakashi had no idea if MS hurts a person's eyes and pretends to be genuinely curious? Itachi's response in #2 even stated something along the lines of "I'm impressed you learned so much from just one confrontation with it." So why would Itachi not think that Kakashi knew?

Screw the literary comprehension, you need to learn basic social interaction, son. This has become highly lollable. I can't even tell if I'm supposed to be taking you seriously or not.
Um... yeah... who's the retard? YOU! <--bet you don't see the irony in that either.
There is no question mark in what Kakashi said. That's one of the punctuation deficiencies I was pointing out moron! I'm not, nor never was, saying Kakashi didn't know you idiot! Have you even finished High School English? How stupid are you? Go back and read what I quoted and actually wrote and realise how stupid you sound. :rolleyes:

Will someone point out the obvious to this moron? He's either completely stupid or so jaded towards me he can't see what's right in front of him. :cool:



Sub-case 2: Itachi believes that all Kakashi knows is that MS puts your eyes at risk.

Then the sudden change between #3 and #4 can be result of Itachi being astonished that Kakashi knows the exact nature of of his problem (which can only be known through personal experience and Kakashi having acquired the MS himself)

This is the only option that makes sense. Case 1 is completely idiotic. There is no metaphor. Kakashi and Itachi are talking about MS and Tsukuyomi. I've already explained why there is no metaphor and why there is a reaction difference.

Subcase 1 makes no sense. The reaction difference between #2 and #4 is too great. If Itachi thought Kakashi actually knew for sure that his eyesight was being damaged (not necessarily going blind) he would've reacted more severely.

I'm bored, so I'll hold Assertn's short-bus riding hand and show him why he's such an idiot...


Conversely, let's think of it this way:

1) Kakashi says MS takes a toll on the user.
2) Itachi is impressed by Kakashi's observation.
3) Kakashi asks how bad Itachi's eyesight has become.
4) Itachi freaks out.

#1 is wrong. Kakashi clearly ASKS that it takes a toll on Itachi's eyes. I guess you're slow brain didn't catch that because of the punctuation mistake.


Now, if we were to assume that JaySee was right, then #3 does not present anything that #1 doesn't present, right? So why would Itachi's #4 be so dramatically different from #2? It just doesn't make any sense!

WRONG! #1 Kakashi is pretending not to know and making his statement in the form of a question to Itachi. #3 is where he's letting Itachi know that he already has the answer through personal experience. You're just to stupid to figure it out.


However, if we consider #3 to be metaphorical in that it implies Itachi has failed to observe something important, then it does become new information, which justifies the drastically different #4 response.

WRONG! Only an idiot (oh right... it's you we're dealing with...) would assume a METAPHOR of something that was just previously stated plain and clear seconds before. You're just some moron reading too much into it because you think you're intelligent. However you missed all the clear, basic, and simple signs of what was really being said. So shut up about your literary techniques and learn basic comprehension first.

You better cool it. I'm about ready to ban you on grounds of flaming. I'm pretty much convinced that you're only posting this shit to piss me off. There's no other explanation why anyone can be this dumb.

[Splash!]

Subcase 1 makes no sense. The reaction difference between #2 and #4 is too great. If Itachi thought Kakashi actually knew for sure that his eyesight was being damaged (not necessarily going blind) he would've reacted more severely.

The only reason you would think he would react more severely to #2 in subcase 1 is because you are expecting the same sort of reaction as #4 in subcase 2 (because at both these points he is faced with the same knowledge, i.e Kakashi knowing he is losing his eyesight).

Be careful no to assume one scenario and try to disprove the other by measuring it up against that one. Consider them seperately.
I think the reaction difference in subcase 1 b/w 2 and 4 is explained if we consider what Kakashi said as taunt on both Itachi's condition and as a metaphor revealing he has MS. Itachi is reacting to knowledge that Kakashi has acquired the mangekyou. Of course, you will tend to disagree with this also because you do not acknowledge there could possibly be a metaphor in the first place.

Regardless, I too am of the opinion that subcase 2 is the most likely and do agree with you. However the other situations are also plausible to a certain degree, though unlikely.

Oh and I disagree about this not playing an important part later. It might very well be that the MS side effects turn out to Itachi's downfall in the fight against Sasuke.

[KCMmmmm]

That's one of the punctuation deficiencies I was pointing out moron!

Should read: "That's one of the punctuation deficiencies I was pointing out, moron." Requires a comma before moron, to separate the sentence from the person receiving it.


I'm not, nor never was, saying Kakashi didn't know you idiot! Have you even finished High School English?

Should read: "I never said Kakshi didn't know, you idiot!" The triple negative needs to be taken out, and (again), separation between the sentence and the intended audience.


I guess you're slow brain didn't catch that because of the punctuation mistake.

Should read: "I guess your slow brain didn't catch that because of the punctuation mistake." The contraction "you're" is not proper here; use "your" instead.

I guess we all make mistakes.

By the way:


Whether or not that Mangekyou Sharingan is takes a toll on the eyes, I doubt it will play a part in the storyline. If we had a Sharingan-less Itachi going around, Sasuke would kill him faster and won't prove much of a fight to us.

He posted this to end the debate. I think it's a good idea to end it as well.

[Assertn]

But here's the thing , with all that being said, you seem to be ignoring #1 and #2 alot and focusing alot more on the sudden change in Itachi's expression in between #3 and #4. :words:

Whether Itachi is going blind or not is pretty much completely at Kishimoto's own discretion, but the point I'm trying to make is that the exchange between Itachi and Kakashi is definitely insufficient in drawing any definite conclusions that would lead to this.

For the most part, you seem to agree with me that the response by Itachi was mostly due to his realization that Kakashi does in fact have MS.


Hmm... maybe because... #1 is in the form of a QUESTION. Hence my comment about bad punctuation.

There is no question mark in what Kakashi said. That's one of the punctuation deficiencies I was pointing out moron! I'm not, nor never was, saying Kakashi didn't know you idiot!

#1 is wrong. Kakashi clearly ASKS that it takes a toll on Itachi's eyes. I guess you're slow brain didn't catch that because of the punctuation mistake.
I'll let this speak for itself. It seems JaySee's doing a good enough job contradicting himself without my help. :rolleyes:

@KCMmmmm: Ohhhhhh snap! =]

[JaySee]

The only reason you would think he would react more severely to #2 in subcase 1 is because you are expecting the same sort of reaction as #4 in subcase 2 (because at both these points he is faced with the same knowledge, i.e Kakashi knowing he is losing his eyesight).
You're forgetting that Kakashi is not making a clear defined statement at the start. He's stating a question.



Should read: "That's one of the punctuation deficiencies I was pointing out, moron." Requires a comma before moron, to separate the sentence from the person receiving it.

Correct


Should read: "I never said Kakshi didn't know, you idiot!" The triple negative needs to be taken out, and (again), separation between the sentence and the intended audience.

Incorrect. It should actually read "...nor ever was..."


Should read: "I guess your slow brain didn't catch that because of the punctuation mistake." The contraction "you're" is not proper here; use "your" instead.

Correct. I don't have QA/QC people to fix my writing.

MS taking a toll on the eyes does factor into the story in a major way seeing as 2 of the major characters having it and possibly a third.



I'll let this speak for itself. It seems JaySee's doing a good enough job contradicting himself without my help. :rolleyes:

Umm... nope. No contradictions what so ever in those quotes. You're just to stupid to see the connection. Living up to that FAILURE part in your nick, eh?

Someone tell Assertn to just shut up on this subject. He just keeps making an ass out of himself. Someone kindly take him aside and point out his deficiencies to him.

User is banned for consistently berating and defying mods.

[Assassin]

Didn't we have this exact discussion in the Naruto Anime forum when the episode with the itachi/kakashi talk was shown?

I vote we make further argument on this topic a banable offense until such time that concrete proof is provided to us by kishimoto in the form of a clear and concise statement.

[Assertn]

Nah man.....I actually liked the potential debate we could have had before JaySee killed it. I'd almost be inclined to just dedicate a thread to it.

[toonice714]

Wow!! i come back to check on the forums after 1 freakin post and it blows up. I just read everything and laughed for like half an hour. I feel kinda bad for giving up this source of info. Anyways the only way that consequence for the MS would be good was if the reason itachi is always using sharingan is because they are like his glasses. b/c his normal eyesight is horrible.

Come on shino screen time!!!! I'm getting tired of seeing sasuke. i dont care what anyone thinks he betrayed everybody by leaving and still got nothing to show for it. There are a myriad of intelligent ninja in konoha for him to study under. WTF should he go to somewhere else to train. Nevermind dont wanna get flammed by other sasuke fans. I personally think he's gay and overrated. .........sharingan sucks....~runs away~

[KCMmmmm]

Wow!! i come back to check on the forums after 1 freakin post and it blows up. I just read everything and laughed for like half an hour. I feel kinda bad for giving up this source of info. Anyways the only way that consequence for the MS would be good was if the reason itachi is always using sharingan is because they are like his glasses. b/c his normal eyesight is horrible.

Right. Or if during the approaching fight between Sasuke and Itachi, Itachi used MS on Sasuke, weakening him too much to fight....and then....went blind right after using it, handing the final blow, and the win to Sasuke! Eh? How does that sound? Well...the next chapter should be out soon, so.....I want to see Deidara's last move.