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View Full Version : What Kind of Menos Were the Espada?



big_ac
Tue, 03-27-2007, 02:52 PM
So we know that there was only one gillian (the noveno espada) and that the rest are either adjuchas or vastorode, but the question now is, who are the vastorodes? I have a strong suspicion that Ulquiorra is, mainly becuase he carries himself like a very powerful individual, we have yet to see him exercise really any power, and the piece of his mask that remains:
In chapter 197, when Hitsugaya describes the three hollow classifications, the picture that it shows for the vastorode appears to have a complete version of Ulquiorra's broken mask, complete with horns and that layered, ridge-look down the side of the head
http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/i393001_vostorode.PNG (http://www.imagehosting.com)
http://p0.xanga.com/0e/43/0e437ac4365da1636025ff93bf6c558f28471309.jpg

We have seen, or will soon see, the abilities of Zaerapollo, Noitora, and Yammy as well as the eyepatch guy (whos name I don't remember). Where does everybody think they used to rank in the Menos hierarchy, along with the rest of the Espada?

Munsu
Tue, 03-27-2007, 03:08 PM
I think Ulquiorra is the only Vast Lorde type so far. All the others should be Adjuchas, except for that lone Gillian.

Konohamaru
Wed, 03-28-2007, 06:13 PM
I doubt it, when he went to the human world with yami to find ichigo, he mentioned something about hollow ichigo's powers going up and down during the mini fight saying ichigo's powers surpassed his at certain points in the fight. Something like that.

Death BOO Z
Mon, 04-02-2007, 04:32 PM
well, aren't his powers limited when he's going into the human world?
the shinigami's powers are greatly reduced when they reach out (they have only 1/5 of their powers), maybe hollows are the same?

bagandscalpel
Mon, 04-02-2007, 07:55 PM
well, aren't his powers limited when he's going into the human world?
the shinigami's powers are greatly reduced when they reach out (they have only 1/5 of their powers), maybe hollows are the same?
No, hollows do not feel the need to preserve the balance of the natural world, unlike the shinigami, and thus they have no limiters.

Munsu
Tue, 04-03-2007, 02:47 AM
That's not what he meant... he meant that being on Earth alone already limits their powers, just like Shinigamis are stronger in Soul Society. That's why Chad became stronger in Hueco Mundo, since his powers are of Hollow nature.

Even so it's not important, since Shinigamis and Hollows suffer from the same thing.

Anyways, there's nothing strange about Ichigo having a higher reiatsu than Ulquiorra, he's a Visored after all, and most importantly Ichigo's reiatsu fluctuated alot so it's not like he can keep it that way constantly. Also, we don't know if that statement included Ulquiorra in his released and/or final form.

iMUSTbeTHEdevil
Tue, 04-03-2007, 07:08 PM
That's not what he meant... he meant that being on Earth alone already limits their powers, just like Shinigamis are stronger in Soul Society. That's why Chad became stronger in Hueco Mundo, since his powers are of Hollow nature.


Which is odd because didnt they say that Chad and big boobs got their powers from Ichigo's powers leaking out? Could that mean that Ichigo had some Hollow in him all along? Who knows?

Munsu
Wed, 04-04-2007, 04:06 AM
Well we don't know the extent of what "powers leaking out" do. For all we know it's simply a trigger to awaken a power within the characters... Else you're implying that Ichigo should have fairies and the power of annullation just as Inoue.

Dark Dragon
Wed, 04-04-2007, 09:52 PM
Maybe it is implied that Vaizard is stronger than Arrancars. Tousen easily took off one of Grimjow arm and i'm pretty sure Grimjow is a Vasto Lorde base on hitsugaya description. The Vaizard group that trained Ichigo for some reason just seem to be alot stronger than the Espadas we've seen so far to me, it might be my imagination though.

Munsu
Wed, 04-04-2007, 09:55 PM
I don't know... I myself think Grimjow is an Adjuchas. He's too hasty and I guess not as smart as some of the other Espadas. He also seemed quite taller than Ichigo and the other humans.

But I agree with your Visored statement... they do seem more stronger than the Espadas we've seen so far.

big_ac
Thu, 04-05-2007, 09:41 AM
Well, we've only seen Hirako fight an Espada, and he had to put his mask on to do it. As far as I know, thats as high as a vaizard goes unless they can also release their zanpakutou.

So, for the sake of argument, we assume that a masked vaizard is at max power. Shinji went FULL STRENGTH to fight the SIXTH rank Espada. Yes, he did solidly own him, but Grimmjow didn't even release his zanpaktou. We haven't even seen an Espada release his or her blade, with the exception of Arroniero Arliero who was pathetically weak.

Basically what I'm saying is WE DON'T KNOW HOW STRONG THE ESPADA REALLY ARE! We have yet to see even one fight to the full extent of their power, and, while the vaizard no doubt also have some sort of ace in the hole, they've already revealed a lot more of their power than the remaining Espada have.

animus
Thu, 04-05-2007, 12:48 PM
Maybe it is implied that Vaizard is stronger than Arrancars. Tousen easily took off one of Grimjow arm and i'm pretty sure Grimjow is a Vasto Lorde base on hitsugaya description. The Vaizard group that trained Ichigo for some reason just seem to be alot stronger than the Espadas we've seen so far to me, it might be my imagination though.

Isn't "Vaizard is stronger than Arrancars." like an Oxymoron or something? Since Arrancar is the broader category of hollow's who have taken/ripped off their masks to gain shinigami bodies/powers or whatever, and a Vaizard is an arrancar no matter what? Maybe it's just my misconception.

Munsu
Thu, 04-05-2007, 03:12 PM
Even though we haven't seen any sort of hierarchy with the Visoreds, they surely should vary in strength just like Shinigamis and Arrancars among their ranks. Hirako is probably one if not the strongest Visored we've seen so, there's nothing surprising that he was stronger than Grimjow...

Rickbee
Thu, 04-05-2007, 07:58 PM
Well, we've only seen Hirako fight an Espada, and he had to put his mask on to do it. As far as I know, thats as high as a vaizard goes unless they can also release their zanpakutou

Without even thinking about it u would believe that the Vaizard can release there Zanpakutou since they were able to in the first place. I also believe that Grimjow was a rank 2 menos as was stated before he is to quick to act and cocky.

Dark Dragon
Wed, 04-11-2007, 10:30 AM
Isn't "Vaizard is stronger than Arrancars." like an Oxymoron or something? Since Arrancar is the broader category of hollow's who have taken/ripped off their masks to gain shinigami bodies/powers or whatever, and a Vaizard is an arrancar no matter what? Maybe it's just my misconception.

I thought that Arrancars are hollows that gain Shinigami powers and Vaizard are Shinigami that somehow obtain Hollow powers (Ichigo for example), so even though both are techniquely at the same place that doesn't mean they are the same. I think are you confusing Vaizards with Espadas.

I dunno about Grimjow being rank 2, that might just be his personality. If anything i would think that Yami is the only revealed Rank 2 among the Espadas because he fit the description more, Bulky and Tall are 2 very different thing.

NeoCybercoin
Wed, 04-11-2007, 05:01 PM
Well atleast we know that all Espada are Adjuchas. The only ones who are Vasto Lorde are Ulquioria and that old guy. That's what I think anyway.

Munsu
Thu, 04-12-2007, 12:21 AM
Well, watching the new Bleach episode, Grimmjow didn't seem as tall as I thought he would be, so I think he may very well be a Vastolorde.

But I think the description given to us about Adjuchas and Vastolorde can't be taken that seriously, clearly Kubo is taking a lot of liberties with the character designs.

dimitris127
Sun, 04-15-2007, 10:40 AM
i would like to add something on the Grimjow VS Hirako...if i recall correctly hirako didn't release his sword either...and even more hirako might have bankai...so there is no way to tell how would the fight end up if those two fought each other in full strength...but i wold vote for hirako...

Splash!
Sat, 04-21-2007, 03:07 PM
If Ulquiorra is indeed a Vastolorde as all signs seem to indicate, that would mean that there are at least 4 Vastolordes with in the ranks of the espada from recent developments in the manga. Unless of course, there is some possbility of a Gillian or Adjuchas arrancaar being stronger than Vastolorde one, which i believe is highly unlikely.

Also, i think Munsu is right about Kubo being off on the character designs. If we went simply by human looking and human sized, then Zaera Pollo would also count as a Vastolorde. But that would mean there are at least 8 of them in the Espada already. I believe thats too high of a number, especially considering #9 was a Gillian

Assassin
Fri, 04-27-2007, 02:43 AM
i think only the top 4 espada are vastolords, mainly cuz ulq fits the description, and has shown an insane amount of power, without even going to his released form. Grimjoww on the other hand, while strong, couldn't do what ulq did to ichigo.....he was even mildly hurt by the black tenshou whatever that ichigo threw at him during thier original fight. This leads me to believe that grimjoww and ulq are on different levels. Theres also the possibility that the 5th espada is a vastolorde, making grimjow the strongest adjhuca......it would explain why he's so cocky and shit.

NeoCybercoin
Fri, 04-27-2007, 06:51 AM
Everybody is talking about the sizes of the Arrancar but sizes only matter when they are still in HOLLOW form. When they became Arrancar turned gained normal humans sizes. Besides Yami. But Yirobou (or whatever his name is) is a Shinigami who is like what? 3 to 4 meters tall?

thedauntlessone
Sat, 04-28-2007, 04:30 AM
I think all the Espadas right now are Ajuchas. In episode 122 Aizen specifically said they need to gather the Vasto Lordes AND perfect the Espada, meaning the Hougyoku is not fully matured so the arranacars (Espadas in particular) are not flawless products. I doubt Aizen would use something as valuable as a Vasto Lorde to do experiments.

As for the picture of the Vasto Lorde resembling Ulquiorra, it just probably means they used a picture readily available to represent the class. Even humans have different heights and sizes, so I doubt Vasto Lordes will all be the same size and shape.

I also want to note that Vaizards seem to be more powerful than Espadas in general. The Super Hiyori Walker basically tests how much spirit power a person has. When the green hair lady walked in, she was surprised Ichigo was still on it. I'm guessing every vizard have similar amount of spirit power as Ichigo. Also they seem to have MUCH MORE finesse than Ichigo. Considering how weak number 8, 9 and 10 are, Vizards should have no problem beating someone like Ulquiorra.

And about the Grimmjow fight with Hirako, the reason why Hirako wanted to finish him off quickly is because he knows he has a released form. Killing him off ASAP is strategy, not because Grimmjow is stronger.

Dont double post

animus
Sat, 04-28-2007, 08:17 PM
Are you serious? They'd get eaten alive by the upper echelon of the Espada in my opinion. They're all the same position as Ichigo. They might be stronget than Ichigo, but I don't think they can touch Ulquiorra and up.

Yukimura
Sun, 04-29-2007, 02:57 AM
I'm not convinced of that, from Ulqi's first description if Ichigo were to gain full control of his power he would be stronger than Ulqi. I would assume that a perfected Ichigo should not be stronger than all the Vaizards. After he manages to take down some Espada and save Orihime we should eventually see some evidence of the power of the other Vaizards without them interfering with Ichigo's protected status as best anit-villian character.

Since this is a shounen hero story Ichigo is by definition stronger than everything except his own current limitations including any strong allies (It all works out since anyone a strong ally can beat Ichigo is assumed to be able to have beaten even if it seems obvious Ichigo can't beat that strong good guy (i.e Yoro/Ura vs Yami).

thedauntlessone
Thu, 05-03-2007, 02:33 PM
Are you serious? They'd get eaten alive by the upper echelon of the Espada in my opinion. They're all the same position as Ichigo. They might be stronget than Ichigo, but I don't think they can touch Ulquiorra and up.
They are not in the same position as Ichigo. How can you compare a group of people who have mastered using their hollow masks to Ichigo, someone who can't even keep his mask on for more than 10 seconds? Remember when Ulquiorra first meets Ichigo he said his power is jumping HIGHER than his own? In a recent chapter, it shows Ichigo nowhere near powerful enough to take on Ulquiorra even with the hollow mask. Thats proof enough that Ichigo doesn't use his hollow mask at maximum potential. Furthermore, since a Vaizard were once shinigami, we can only assume they have shikai/bankai, which makes them that much more powerful.

Next time back up what you want to say.

animus
Fri, 05-04-2007, 02:23 PM
They are not in the same position as Ichigo. How can you compare a group of people who have mastered using their hollow masks to Ichigo, someone who can't even keep his mask on for more than 10 seconds? Remember when Ulquiorra first meets Ichigo he said his power is jumping HIGHER than his own? In a recent chapter, it shows Ichigo nowhere near powerful enough to take on Ulquiorra even with the hollow mask. Thats proof enough that Ichigo doesn't use his hollow mask at maximum potential. Furthermore, since a Vaizard were once shinigami, we can only assume they have shikai/bankai, which makes them that much more powerful.

Next time back up what you want to say.

Ulquiorra took Ichigo's Bankai + Hollow form Getsuga Tenshou, his most powerful move with one hand, completely unfazed. Do you really think him keeping the form up for longer would put him in a better position? Ichigo then took a Cielo blast, and defended himself a split second by activating his mask, and still got rawly decimated. There is no proof just how powerful the Vaizards are. Lastly, there is no proof that Vaizard's were once shinigami. Next time back up what you want to say.

thedauntlessone
Fri, 05-04-2007, 08:36 PM
Ulquiorra took Ichigo's Bankai + Hollow form Getsuga Tenshou, his most powerful move with one hand, completely unfazed. Do you really think him keeping the form up for longer would put him in a better position? Ichigo then took a Cielo blast, and defended himself a split second by activating his mask, and still got rawly decimated. There is no proof just how powerful the Vaizards are. Lastly, there is no proof that Vaizard's were once shinigami. Next time back up what you want to say.
Have you actually read what I wrote? When Ulquiorra first met Ichigo, he himself said Ichigo's power was jumping ABOVE HIS OWN. And by definition, Vaizard is a Shinigami who gained hollow powers.

EDIT: And you just proved my point. Ichigo with Bankai and hollow mask didn't even faze Ulquiorra in the recent chapter, but Ulquiorra stated himself that Ichigo's power jumped ABOVE his at times when they first met (when the hollow tried to take over Ichigo when he was fighting Yami). So why is it that Ichigo's power is lower than Ulquiorra's? We don't know yet, but from what I can tell, it's probably because he hasn't mastered using his hollow powers and there is still untapped power for him to use.

In other words you lose.

Prof. Chaos
Mon, 05-07-2007, 07:55 PM
Have you actually read what I wrote? When Ulquiorra first met Ichigo, he himself said Ichigo's power was jumping ABOVE HIS OWN. And by definition, Vaizard is a Shinigami who gained hollow powers.

EDIT: And you just proved my point. Ichigo with Bankai and hollow mask didn't even faze Ulquiorra in the recent chapter, but Ulquiorra stated himself that Ichigo's power jumped ABOVE his at times when they first met (when the hollow tried to take over Ichigo when he was fighting Yami). So why is it that Ichigo's power is lower than Ulquiorra's? We don't know yet, but from what I can tell, it's probably because he hasn't mastered using his hollow powers and there is still untapped power for him to use.

In other words you lose.

Could it simply be that even with Ichigo in control, he still cant access the full power that his inner-hollow has over him. Just cause he is able to control him doesn't mean he has true power over him.

ChaosK
Thu, 05-10-2007, 07:04 PM
Ulquiorra took Ichigo's Bankai + Hollow form Getsuga Tenshou, his most powerful move with one hand, completely unfazed.

Wrong, it took him 2 hands and I believe his line was "I'm surprised I couldn't stop it even with both hands"


Do you really think him keeping the form up for longer would put him in a better position? Ichigo then took a Cielo blast, and defended himself a split second by activating his mask, and still got rawly decimated. There is no proof just how powerful the Vaizards are. Lastly, there is no proof that Vaizard's were once shinigami. Next time back up what you want to say.

Vaizards are Shinigami that entered hollow territory, in short, all vaizards are shinigami, just like all allancar are hollows.

Now to my theory(ies): there's no way you can just label only the top 4 as vastolordes because they're insanely powerful. The 9th Espada, the only one that's a gillian is an espada. That would mean #10 (Yammi) is at least (and most likely) an adjuchas(sp). It's not concrete that all Adjucas are weaker than all vastolordes. Although it would most likely make sense, the manga's gone extremely confusing by throwing in a gillian in the ranks of Espada. Furthermore, didn't Aizen say something like "say hello to your 20 brother's and sisters" when Ulquiorria first returned from the real world? Now obviously it's doubtable that all 20 were vastolordes because the Espada were probably among them and we know a few Espadas aren't Vastolordes. But there's no way Aizen only has 20 Adjuchas or above under his control, so what exactly does he mean by those 20?

It probably means that there are Vastolordes that don't rank up to Espadas for reasons undisclosed, such as the 9th's unique power, perhaps say another Espada, only a adjuchas ranks above a Vastolorde because he too has a unique power.

Finally, Ulquiorria is probably a vastolorde, I'd say Noitora is one too, as well as Grimmjaw, Halibel, Stark and the old geezer. (some names are taken from wikipedia)

Meaning the rest are Adjuchas including Yammi, Zaera-Polo, and the final unnamed guy..

Of course Aaroniero is a Gillian.

Munsu
Sun, 09-09-2007, 03:31 AM
So we now know that Grimmjaw was an Adjuchas. I still don't think that Noitora is a Vastolorde, and as we all think that Ulquiorra is one. As for the remaining 3, I think they'll end up being Vastolordes too. What about the leader of the Exequias? Think he might be a Vastolorde? Or maybe one of the Espadas is the leader of the Exequias.