Claymore

[shinta|hikari]

The sharing of blood and flesh part was shown with Clare handing over Teresa's head so she can use it to become a claymore.

I agree with Ryllharu completely. Galatea did not just sense moods. She was able to sense youki, and was able to deduce the moods from them. This is not a new or special ability. What is being emphasized here is the sheer power of Galatea to read youki, to the point that she can determine such things.

Heck, even if their powers were different, "100% different"? Now that is a hasty generalization.

[dragonrage]

I think it's less pro-abstinence and more pro-tantra. Push yourself to the edge, then pull back, and you can stay there and have a good time for a lot longer >_>.
compy i had no idea that you were that much of a perv :p

Anyways I have taken a liking to this anime and the way that it has been put together so far is quite exceptional, even though it might mimic some other anime. It is still unique in it's own right. It has a good feeling coming from it. I am glad that I picked it up.

@bananafob: If you don' mind me asking i would like to know where exactly does it say that each generation is stronger than the next. What i recall him saying is that each generation has it's heros and the current number one and number two are quite powerful.


Also the man in black that follows Clare said that they don't hunt the demons or awakened ones without orders. and also that Prisilla is amoung the strongest awakened being. If the order was giving to take her out they would put up the entire organization up against her. on a "balance". Meaning she is that powerful.

[Ryllharu]

It doesn't say each generation is stronger than the next. *I* speculated that the Organization trains or works on the girls successively better with each generation, as if they were developing technology, better methods, better training (so maybe Claymores strong in Yoki won't be mentally weak like Priscilla was).

Granted there will always be stars in each generation like Teresa and Priscilla, but it seems like the Claymores of present day are stronger overall, by comparing Noel and Sophia (ranked 4 and 5) to the members of Miria's team (6, 15, 22, 47). Miria's team members are special cases, but for supposedly being stronger than Miria, Sophia and Noel came off as pretty generic.

(more damage control from my generalizations and speculations...at least I got quite the discussion going)

[Kraco]

I wouldn't be so sure the Claymores get training much beyond some basic training. All Claymores we have seen so far are wandering from town to town liquidating demons after a request has been made by the authorities and approved by the organization. So, it seems to me the Claymores get some training after they have become Claymores and then they roam the wide world on their own getting better and better or dying in the process. Maybe they pick up a few hints from more experienced or brilliant Claymores during missions where more than one are dispatched to deal with an Awakened being.

The weaker Claymores so far haven't been impressive enough that I'd think they would have a Master's degree from the Department of Yoma extermination. And unless the Yoma are getting stronger all the time (no evidence of that either), then there's no need for the Claymore to get stronger. They are a troublesome workforce in any case because they can suddenly turn into enemies.

The stronger the Claymore, the stronger the Awakened being, it would be reasonable to assume. Furthermore, the power gap Teresa first demonstrated makes it look like there's no linearity in the scale of power. So, it's actually risky for the organization to have powerful individuals, because there's no guarantee even a host of weaker ones can compensate for the gap.

[dragonrage]

I would also like to point out that Teresa only release about 10% of her power (from what she explain on how the transformation works) It would have been awesome to see her at 79%..... That would have been cool, I think.

[shinta|hikari]

Uh, I dont really want to see Teresa all Youma-like and disgusting. Her beauty and power is what makes her the best in my book. Heck, she even got her nickname because of that fact.

@Kraco - agreed. I was not able to mention that point. It would indeed be foolish to continually upgrade soldiers that can betray you at any time.

@Ryllharu - no need for damage control. If people assume that the speculations you give are true or proven in the anime, then its their fault for not paying attention. Its always good to have hypothetical discussions anyway. Your point about Sophia and Noel actually helps the point of the non-linearity of the power between claymores. There are in fact inconsistent power gaps and the like, as seen in the gap between Teresa and everyone else of her time.

[Ryllharu]

Eclipse - Claymore eps 12 (h264) (http://torrents.no-sekai.de/eclipse/%5bEclipse%5d%20Claymore%20-%2012%20(h264)%20%5b3406668A%5d.mkv.torrent)
Eclipse - Claymore eps 12 (xvid) (http://torrents.no-sekai.de/eclipse/%5bEclipse%5d%20Claymore%20-%2012%20(XviD)%20%5bD5A2E61A%5d.avi.torrent)

Title for those who like that:

"The Endless Gravestones (Part 1)"

[Kraco]

A very interesting episode. It had kind of strange musics here and there, but otherwise it was beautiful as well. Not to mention it might cause a time skip a bit later, with the result of Raki getting considerably stronger. Though it's too early yet to really evaluate whether a skip is going to happen or not. Nevertheless, Raki was actually quite badass with his determination and courage in this episode. He's heading for the right direction, no doubt of that.

Well, in any case the next episode(s) should present a deadly battle. I wonder if the dude dealing out missions to Clare knew this was going to happen.

[Yukimura]

Ophelia was excellent, her playful but crazed bloodlust came through really well. And her cherub-like face made it all the more creepy and exciting. Plus the whole backwards decapitation thing...that was just scary.

[Kraco]

Yeah. Ophelia is probably crazier than any Awakened being we have seen so far. And thus far more dangerous. Also a nice way of dealing with the rule of not killing humans: Just don't leave witnesses. Damn, the whole game of cutting off Clare's feet and then putting up the mock fight with Raki... I have to say it's always a pleasure to see crazy villains like this when the story calls for one. It will be extremely interesting to see how deeply the plot will use this whole confrontation as a part of the plot and Clare's development.

[Ryllharu]

I love all the VAs they've been finding so far. The casting has been amazing. Even the most minor roles are being played by either VAs that have been in really popular stuff lately, Minori Chihara (Yuki Nagato) playing the Awakened One in this episode, or VAs that did really prominent series a decade ago.

Emi Shinohara, who plays Ophelia is perfect at playing one creepy psycho of a Claymore. She was giving me goosebumps when she was grabbing Clare and again when she started shivering and called them both "wonderful." The moodswings made her creepier than anything we've seen and her sadistic side is just bone chilling.

Like the Awakened said, Ophelia really is the monster of the two of them.

[Munsu]

What really bothers me is if Clare actually did drink the blood of Teresa. Unless I missed it, there have been no mentions of Clare drinking Teresa's blood. The images of Teresa herself could possibly just been a memory of how she fought as Clare had witnessed.


So now we are in a Vampire anime?

Then Ophelia appeared.

[Knives122]

This episode was that bullshit, chopping off Clare's legs was just wrong.

I'm really loving the different personalities each claymore has, it'll be nice to meet some of the others down the road if we ever get the chance(hopefully none of them will be like Ophelia the crazy bitch)

[Koyuki]

Yeah, she is psychopathic. That's what I like about Claymore. They're all different. I love the character design.

Can't wait till next episode ^_^

[Idealistic]

Well, in any case the next episode(s) should present a deadly battle. I wonder if the dude dealing out missions to Clare knew this was going to happen.

I wonder the same too.

As for the episode, I thought it was a nice episode. And like everyone has said, i like Ophelia's psychopatic personality. Scary!! But what's with with Clare kissing Raki on the lips? I thought Raki was more of a little brother to Clare or something.. But apparently not.

Perhaps next time we see Raki, he'll have turned into a male Claymore!!! The show is hinting that Raki will probably be if not the only male to successfully become a Claymore. In the previous episodes they have stated that males always fail because they give into the power of awakening. My guess is since Raki has such a bond with Clare, he will not go over his limits.

[?igma]

As usual, Claymore produces an excellent episode. I don't think there are many animé where I can litterally be disgusted by a certain character or action. This episode managed to do both. The athmosphere is excellent, the sound-effects ( since the beginning actually ) really match this series and make it one intense happening.

Finally a heroin that doesn't strike poses, automatically wins, or constantly has to be showing some sex-appeal. I like it as much as I liked Berserk, twisted, exciting and raw.

Vigourously waiting for the next one.

[MFauli]

Great as always.
And this episode i fell in love with Clare :-)
The scene after she kissed Raki and stared at him...that´s probably the sexiest scene i ever so in an anime.

Also, go, go, go, Raki! I dont see how a timeskip would work at the moment, as Clare is the main character. But there has to be one, to show Raki having gotten stronger.

[Idealistic]

Finally a heroin that doesn't strike poses, automatically wins, or constantly has to be showing some sex-appeal.


Amen to that.

[animus]

I wonder the same too.

As for the episode, I thought it was a nice episode. And like everyone has said, i like Ophelia's psychopatic personality. Scary!! But what's with with Clare kissing Raki on the lips? I thought Raki was more of a little brother to Clare or something.. But apparently not.

Perhaps next time we see Raki, he'll have turned into a male Claymore!!! The show is hinting that Raki will probably be if not the only male to successfully become a Claymore. In the previous episodes they have stated that males always fail because they give into the power of awakening. My guess is since Raki has such a bond with Clare, he will not go over his limits.

No, they are successes at becoming Claymores, meaning half-yoma half-human. But, they're only considered "failures" because they can't resist the urge to awaken, but they are/were Claymores at one point.

[BananaFob]

I wonder the same too.

As for the episode, I thought it was a nice episode. And like everyone has said, i like Ophelia's psychopatic personality. Scary!! But what's with with Clare kissing Raki on the lips? I thought Raki was more of a little brother to Clare or something.. But apparently not.

I want to believe that Clare did that to shut him up. He was eventually going to die if he kept on pestering her like that when Orpheilia came.


Perhaps next time we see Raki, he'll have turned into a male Claymore!!! The show is hinting that Raki will probably be if not the only male to successfully become a Claymore. In the previous episodes they have stated that males always fail because they give into the power of awakening. My guess is since Raki has such a bond with Clare, he will not go over his limits.

If Raki did become a Claymore, wouldn't he turn into an Awakening just as fast? He keeps telling himself that he needs to get stronger, so what other fast and easy way for him to be stronger than to become an Awakening?


So now we are in a Vampire anime?


Then Ophelia appeared.

I meant to ask if Clare actually ate the flesh of Teresa...I think it's the nearly same as drinking the blood.

But yeah, anyway, although this anime is superior to many I've seen, there's some intended-echii scenes in here the way I perceive it (for example, when Orphelia was feeling Clare's chest, and when the male Awakening was drilling his tongue into Miria's stomach).

[animus]

I think it's a romantic kiss and not just to shut him up. Raki isn't that young, he's probably in his mid-teens say, 14-16 range? Anyways, after she kissed him you could see it in her quivering eyes (which is a common technique used in anime to convey loving eyes, concern, emotion, etc.) that it meant something to her as well.

I don't know if mutilating someone's chest (though it did seem like it could've been groping at first), and impaling someone in the abdomen would be considered ecchi.

[Munsu]

I don't think it has been explained how Claymores are made. I don't really think it's something as simple as eating someones flesh. I suspect the humans get operated on and some organs or whatever get transplanted with yoma ones.

[Kraco]

I think it's a romantic kiss and not just to shut him up. Raki isn't that young, he's probably in his mid-teens say, 14-16 range? Anyways, after she kissed him you could see it in her quivering eyes (which is a common technique used in anime to convey loving eyes, concern, emotion, etc.) that it meant something to her as well.

I don't think it was simply either one, but a bit of both and something more. Probably, if you think about it, one of the most complex kissing scenes in anime at large. There haven't been anything like romance between those two, and Clare probably hasn't even been mentally capable for such a thing for too long. And Raki, I think, has viewed Clare more like his only support in the world, like a guardian and an idol perhaps. And something to protect since he's a man, after all, but that goes without saying.

So, it was to confuse him and thus make him to agree to the request of leaving. Yet at the same time it was also to make sure he has suddenly something else to live for than to die defending Clare. Because it began to seem like Raki just yearned to get stronger to save Clare like Clare saved him. But now Clare effectively turned that fully around.

Still, I'm not all too sure what Clare is really feeling about it all. I saw much purposefulness in that kiss, to make Raki think about living for the future and not dying for the future. I think such a thing is pretty easy with men, or at least young men. And I have no doubt Clare knew that would happen, and she didn't kiss him at random. That being said, there's still what animus pointed out: It was certainly genuine for Clare as well. A friendly tactical precision strike.

[Ryllharu]

I think Kraco is right about the kiss. It was more of a way to shut up Raki and have him agree to separate. Give him the idea that there will be something to come back for as long as they separate for now. It was also a promise from Clare. At the same time, remember when they were in the Holy City and Clare told Raki that Claymores are trained to fit in. She could play a prostitute if she wanted. Maybe Clare has special feelings about him and maybe she doesn't, but she certainly gave him exactly what was needed to get him to do what she wanted. I'm more inclined to believe she does have some special feelings for him after what they've been through and how angry she gets when others accuse her of having a little boy as a love-slave.

As for how Claymores are made, I had thought it was explained enough when Teresa and Clare were approached by the bandits. Teresa tore open her uniform and displayed her chest and abdomen for all to see. They were visibly repulsed by it and she said, "This is the body of a Claymore." One can imagine Claymores are covered in scars and the like. So we can somewhat conclude that yoma pieces are surgically implanted all over into a Claymore's body.

[Idealistic]

As for how Claymores are made, I had thought it was explained enough when Teresa and Clare were approached by the bandits. Teresa tore open her uniform and displayed her chest and abdomen for all to see. They were visibly repulsed by it and she said, "This is the body of a Claymore." One can imagine Claymores are covered in scars and the like. So we can somewhat conclude that yoma pieces are surgically implanted all over into a Claymore's body.

Maybe... But the way I interpreted it was that the scars were from all the battles Teresa has gone through and all the cuts/wounds she has suffered. But perhaps those are the scars from implants too... Who knows..

[Ryllharu]

That's another way to take it, one I hadn't really thought about. I just kind of imagined something really nasty, like pulsating...something. I just guessed at it from what we know about what Claymores are.

That's what's great about that scene, they show nothing, so it's up to the worst your imagination can offer after seeing their reaction.

[Kraco]

I just kind of imagined something really nasty, like pulsating...something. I just guessed at it from what we know about what Claymores are.


I have thought maybe of the same thing. That there's the piece of the original yoma implanted there as such, visible. Maybe Clare has Teresa's head or a part of it implanted in her abdomen...

[animus]

Didn't Clare get impaled in the abdomen before and as a result of that warranted a new Claymore uniform?

[WRX Sti]

That was a pretty decent episode. Who knows maybe raki will become a semi awakened like clare etc. If he does become a claymore. The kiss was pretty unexpected for me, but the way it was portrayed was pretty good. I would actually like to know what the bandits saw, but i guess thats left up to my imagination :(

[shinta|hikari]

Agreed with the assertion of Kraco and Ryll. The kiss served a purpose, but I am also inclined to believe that she also has feelings for Raki. The fact that she promised and intends to find and meet him again proves this. If she only wanted him to live a decent human life, she would not even try to meet up with him again (considering the crap he had to go through living with a claymore), and simply lie about the promise she made. But the monologue she gave after they parted showed that she intends to keep her promise, and even prayed for it to come true.

I dont think Clare herself realizes what she feels, considering that her partner is still a kid, and she probably doesnt know anything about liking the opposite sex, but this will all change if Raki grows up and meets her again.

Still Clare in that episode looked really sexy, for many reasons.

I also think that rather than just scarring, there are youma parts or the like attached to a claymores body, since simple scarring would not deter a bunch of horny bandits from raping a babe like Teresa.

[MFauli]

How about thinking a bit more simple but pervert ;)

Perhaps to become a Claymore, the organization takes a girl, brings her together with a captured Yoma, and, well, use your imagination. Sounds gruesome, but it´d suit the series imo.

But whatever, im sure we´ll be showed what it is like to become a Clyamore.

[shinta|hikari]

Err, there were male claymores.

Even if it were still possible, would YOU like to see that?

EDIT - Strange enough, Milia and Clare being grope-impaled was ecchi to me.

[Kraco]

Agreed with the assertion of Kraco and Ryll. The kiss served a purpose, but I am also inclined to believe that she also has feelings for Raki. The fact that she promised and intends to find and meet him again proves this. If she only wanted him to live a decent human life, she would not even try to meet up with him again (considering the crap he had to go through living with a claymore), and simply lie about the promise she made. But the monologue she gave after they parted showed that she intends to keep her promise, and even prayed for it to come true.

While I'm not denying she has genuine feelings for him (I always want series to have romance, after all), it still won't do to forget Clare was once in the exact same situation as Raki is now. Clare followed Teresa as a human kid. She knows very well that Raki doesn't want to have a normal human life away from her. Even if she now, sides reversed, could reasonably see how normal human surroundings would ensure a longer and safer life for Raki just like Teresa was trying to give Clare herself.

I don't know. It's a deep moral issue really: Whether you want to force protection and consequent unhappiness on someone who doesn't want it. It always pisses me off when that happens, as long as the victim is not a little child who possibly couldn't decide for him/herself. But Raki is clearly old enough to know whether he wants to live as a normal villager or a Claymore tagalong. From my point of view forcing him away for good (not what happened in this ep), even if the motive is to keep him safer, is morally wrong. Even if the happiness he could experience with Clare could only be brief.

And it's not like Claymores themselves, all in all, can expect to live very long, I think. They must know that sooner or later they will either get killed by yoma (or Awakened beings) or awaken themselves, thus losing their human side if not the very life eventually. However short or long that time ends up being for Clare, I don't consider it selfish at all for Clare to hope she could spend that time with Raki if he also wants that.

Edit: I really should try to write shorter posts, but I find it hard to compress impressions like this... Sorry about that.

[Xrlderek]

This last episode is one of the best I've seen of any anime lately. I really laughed hard at the part after Ophelia said the line, "Every second counts, we mustn't fight amongst ourselves". I totally believed her, it didn't seem like an obvious joke to me at all.

[shinta|hikari]

What I was trying to point out was that Clare wanted to be with Raki. It wasnt about protection, or because he was insisting on it, or any moral issue at that point. Clare herself wants to seek out Raki to be together with him again, and she is willing to give out effort to do so. Like I said, it is too soon for it to be branded as romantic feelings, but I think that is where it is headed.

I just think that if her feelings for Raki were exclusively sisterly, or for family, she would not even try to look for him, since being away from her would be for his own sake. But despite knowing this fact, Clare made that promise, showing signs of selfishness (not the bad kind), and I believe acting in accordance with what she wants, not what she wants for Raki.

And I mean, just look at Clare's face in that scene. If that wasnt romantic/extremely affectionate (kind of the same thing), what the hell is?

[Kraco]

I just think that if her feelings for Raki were exclusively sisterly, or for family, she would not even try to look for him, since being away from her would be for his own sake.

Romantic feelings or just friendship issues aside, this exactly is what I have problems with. Even if there was no romantic feelings on either side, it's painfully obvious Raki only wants to be with Clare. And so I say pushing him away for his own protection wouldn't be morally correct. I will never admit that condemning someone to long unhappiness is better than granting a possibly (but not necessarily - who knows the future?) shorter happiness if that's what the person himself wants. And even more so if Clare wants that as well, as you could imagine she would after what she experienced herself with Teresa. She didn't want to be left behind, and I doubt there was a romance between little Clare and Teresa. And if Clare didn't appreciate Raki's company, with her Claymore speed she could have lost the guy a long time ago.

[shinta|hikari]

Well, before, she only pitied Raki because it overlapped with her experience with Teresa. The same can no longer be said, since as you mentioned before, she does appreciate his company, enough in fact, to search for him wherever he may go.

I do agree with you with the transient happiness vs. prolonged stability part. It is indeed the will of the person involved that decides which is more valuable, and I believe its also true in this case, as Raki had said, he would rather die as long as he is with Clare. I do think its more than likely that Raki DOES have romantic feelings for Clare (based on the stuff he keeps saying and trying to do), but even if he didnt before, who wouldnt after what happened this episode.

[Yukimura]

Another reason for the separation you seem to be neglecting is that if Raki isn't around he can't be used by the crazy psycho chasing Clare in any more sketchy games. Not only would Raki be putting himself at risk by staying with her he'd basically be offering the enemy an excellent weapon against Clare. Is a person with a bomb strapped to them morally right if they choose to follow around their girlfriend as the timer ticks away because they don't want to be alone before they explode?

What about Clare's feelings and her choices? Maybe she would rather have him be alive and away from her not just to protect him but to give her the best chance of surviving so they can actually meet again. Having him there just to appease his desire for being with her would just lead to them both dieing. And she doesn't seem to be at the stage where she'd rather die than make him upset.

Something that really impressed me this ep was the animation of the sensual scenes. It was the most hentai-like I've seen in a main stream show to date. The detail when Ophelia was sucking Clare's blood off her fingers as well as the expressions during the kiss were really precise and reminiscent of normal hentai animation.

[Kraco]

Well, it's not like anybody was negletting that particular reason you mentioned, because it was the only reason around. The only gray area here is why they made it sound like there could be a long time before they meet again (which is why I reckon there could even be a time skip coming.)


then what about Clare's feelings and her choices? Maybe she would rather have him be alive and away from her giving her the best chance to also survive instead of having him there to help them both get killed by being used by the enemy.
I'm not sure if you are stuck to the present situation all the time, but in case you are, she of course sent him away just now so that he couldn't affect the imminent fight in a negative manner - after all, Raki realised by himself as well a moment earlier how useless he is in battle.

Otherwise I'm not sure what kind of thinking that is in the bigger picture. Some sort of cowardice and wannabe martyrdom. To send your important person to forced safety condemning both to unhappiness, but at least the other one would be safe. Well, the purpose of life isn't to be safe, so that's only twisted thinking. Though not very uncommon, and I dislike it most of the time, even if I recognize it as an important element in a multitude of stories old and new.

[shinta|hikari]

Even if we only take the present issue in consideration, the morality issue there is, does Clare have the right to force Raki to leave? If seen in the perspective you just mentioned, yes, but that doesnt erase the fact that Raki's own will was trampled on for the sake of Clare having less of a disadvantage against Ofelia. If trampling over someone's will isnt considered immoral to you (considering it should be left to Raki what he should do, it is his life anyway), then this discussion ends here.

Also, he isnt doing it simply because he doesnt want to be alone (thus being stupidly selfish), but because he wants to help Clare (as impratical as that is).

EDIT : Agreed with the last paragraph of the last post.

[Ryllharu]

It's more than just that though, Raki apparently wants to protect Clare. It's stupid and delusional for him to think he even can, given she's much more capable than he is. Still, it's a chivalrous notion that's admirable and even harder for women to ignore. I'm not sure where it started, maybe even the first episode, seeing the loneliness she was in and hardships she faced, but Raki's need to protect Clare has grown since she had to kill Elena. He definitely seems to not want to her have to use her powers (after his discussion with Rubel, her handler), and foolishly enough wants to see her have a more peaceful life.

That's not unlike what Teresa wanted for Clare, before revenge pushed her into the Organization, and it's also the same thing Clare wanted for Raki before they left the Holy City. That is when Clare realized since she herself wanted to stay with Teresa, she really had no right to push him away either. Since then, the two of them have grown closer.

Whether it's romantic or not, the two of them both want to be together.

[kenren]

It's just so sad to see both clare and raki have to suffer this much..though Raki chose his own painful path.

[Kraco]

Even if we only take the present issue in consideration, the morality issue there is, does Clare have the right to force Raki to leave? If seen in the perspective you just mentioned, yes, but that doesnt erase the fact that Raki's own will was trampled on for the sake of Clare having less of a disadvantage against Ofelia.

Actually not. The morality issue discussed here at such a length was nothing but a hypothetical point. After all, Raki wasn't forced to leave! He left by his own will, though I imagine still not too happily, after Clare confused him with that surprise kiss. Heh, of course if you think it was immoral to mess with Raki's head by kissing him, then it was indeed trampling Raki's own will. But honestly that's nothing but normal woman-man interaction, so I don't think it's any real point...

[Yukimura]

Just to clairify the frame that this discussion is in (the morality one) are you both saying that the 'moral' thing to do doesn't nessecarily have to be the smartest or most reasonable thing to do for either Clare or Raki?

If Raki stays with Clare there's a better than 0 chance that he and/or she will end up suffering/dying because of it. I'm primarily focused on the current situation in the Endless Gravestones arc, but this isn't the first time he's been used against her and probably won't be the last if they do meet up again. (Raki getting killed anyway next ep would be very interesting). Do you think it would be 'wrong' for Claire to just say, stay away from me and keep running away from him without actually convincing him not to try and follow. I would see that as self preservation in addition to an attempt to protect Raki. She ought to have the right to not suffer through watching him die as she lays there powerlessly if she doesn't want to. Though perhaps her motivations would affect how 'right' her actions would be.

EDIT: I'm coming from the perspective of Clare liking Raki in a familial perspective not a lovers, b/c I just can't see Clare thinking like that.

[Kraco]

I'd say it's wrong because he knows the risks yet wants to be with her. There's always some small risk in any relationship, even just friendship, of getting hurt. However, if you want to have relationships of any kind, you shouldn't think of the risks, because few people want to get a friend in order to be betrayed or a lover in order to be devastated by losing the lover. Clare can't affect the way of life she leads. So, if someone genuinely wants to be a companion, of any kind, for her fully knowing the terrible risks, I think she has the moral grounds to accept that. She might eventually suffer if the companion dies, but nevertheless she would have experienced something good before that. And the death is not inevitable.

Of course it takes a lot to accept the fact the other person would be risking his own life for no other purpose than to be with her. But under the circumstances Clare as a Claymore is living, there's no choice. A soldier going to war knows death might happen any moment. It might claim the guy next to you or you. But you just gotta keep going as long as it's not you, no matter how sad it is. I like to think they both know this and neither would let it stop them.

[shinta|hikari]

@Kraco - I was saying that "if" Clare forced Raki to leave, it would be wrong. I didnt say she did. I also agreed that the morality issue was a hypothetical point. Thats why I said "Even if" at the start of that paragraph.

Before we face the issue of the value and nature of relationships (which is a doozy), it should not be forgotten that no one has the right to trample on anyone's will. They have the right to do whatever they want, and if you prevent them from doing so, you are basically exercising your ability to coerce them to your own advantage, or force them into what you think is good for them.

In that sense, it is also Clare's right to do whatever she wants, but that doesnt include forcing other people to do things despite their expressed disagreement. In this case, Clare manipulated Raki in such a way that he made the decision himself (the practical decision), which means there was no moral breach, unless as Kraco said, you count kissing as such a diabolical tool (I dont personally, Raki was just stupid enough to fall for it)

@Yuki - Yes, it would be Clare's right to leave him at anytime, but that would be morally wrong (for her) on other grounds. Raki is already her responsibility, at least she believes so, and that is normally enough. She also, as mentioned, wants to stay with him.

And yes, morality has nothing to do with the smartest or most reasonable thing, for it usually contradicts that. Issues in Code Geass and Death Note come to mind as examples. (surprising how anime can become examples for questions of morality, but whatever)

[complich8]

I think Clare has done her due dilligence in warning Raki about her lifestyle, and has given him every opportunity to pursue his own safety. But he and she both realize that the pursuit of happiness supersedes the pursuit of safety.

I think it's possible that Clare's thinking is becoming less claymore-like and more human-like since her half-awakening. As in, before she wasn't really capable of having romantic feelings, or at least wasn't capable of letting herself do so. But post-awakening, I think something's changed about her mindset a bit. Consider the implications of "awakening" as a bit broader than just "turning into a freaky tentacle-demon"...

I'm pretty sure Raki realized that Clare was more than a little overmatched facing Ophelia. That's precisely why he wanted to stay with her: in his mind he was faced with the prospect of either letting her go alone and losing her forever, or staying with her and dying with her. The function of the kiss and the promise to return is an assurance that she will not die, that she has something to come back for and has every intention of coming back, and is not going to throw her life away so easily as she might have before.

[Buffalobiian]

I thought Clare's decision was correct in from a tactical point of vew. We've been through how Rakki is metaphorically a time-bomb, and how he's not very potent at the moment. Live to fight another day. Instead of pursuing happiness that may last for, say, a couple of hours to maybe a week, Rakki could leave just for a little while, and make up that time later. And that later would last longer if he made himself stronger during his leave.

[Yukimura]

In all these hopes for seeing a stronger Raki you all seem to be forgetting something pretty basic to the show. If normal people could just train themselves enough to fight Yoma (even just regular weak garden variety Yoma) then they would never have bothered to create the ultimately inefficient and dangerous Claymores. Raki can only possibly stop being a liablity by becoming a male Claymore, which again there is a strong precedent against, as he'd likely end up awakening and having to be put down.

I don't have a problem with him following Clare around and them spending time together, but he has absolutely no business being on the battle field with her, since he can only reduce her chances of completing her tasks safely. He should just accept that he's a support character for when the battles already over instead of being a stubborn idiot and trying to do the impossible and fight Yoma all by himself.

[complich8]

On the other hand, he DID buy her an opportunity with Ophelia ... when she had her fingers in Clare's chest and whatnot. This despite being a human.

Also, consider that the male Awakened they faced seemed quite present of mind, hiding in human form, completely masking his yoki, etc. He knew what was up ... who's to say he didn't have full control of his appetite? Further, Awakened Priscilla seemed quite present-minded, just that she was a bit twisted even as a claymore.

I propose that if all 4 of the slashers are half-awakened, it must not be THAT unthinkable (or even that uncommon) for claymores to reach that state. Consider that that's 4 out of 47 current claymores -- roughly one in twelve of them -- all at about the same time. Given that claymores live a relatively long (but undisclosed) time as claymores, and presumably that the male awakened being in the Slashers arc was, in fact, essentially a half-awakened dump who had apparently disposed of many such claymores throughout the years, it's probably better than 10% of them that end up that way. It might be fair to guess as many as 1 in 6 to 1 in 8 of them have half-awakened to be eaten by that guy.

If the half-awakening is that common, is it inconcievable for a male to reach that point, given that he's got the proper motivation and mindset? If anyone's got a suitably present mind and high degree of self-mastery, it's Raki, as underscored by his silence during the fight with Ophelia.

However, I think it's important that Raki stays human. If he's not fully human, then we can no longer identify with any character in the story, and the series degenerates to a fairly hard-to-feel "monster versus monster" scenario.

Further, Clare's specialty is specifically attuned to fighting against high-end enemies -- awakened beings, high-powered yoma, partially-released claymores. Having a fully-human Raki capable of covering the low-end (say ... humans, very weak yoma, unreleased claymores) would make them very much a complementary pair, covering each other's weaknesses and basically completing each other on the battlefield.

This, in my opinion, would be an ideal scenario both from a combat perspective and a storytelling perspective.

[Kraco]

Well, like I mentioned at one point or another, what I'd like to see is them being together most of the time but during fights against Yoma Raki would be well away to make sure no Yoma could use him as a hostage against Clare. However, whenever some stupid band of rogues would choose to assault Clare, then Raki would deal with them. After all, Clare's pretty much only option is to run (or leave no witnesses, but frankly that's not how Clare would act). She could escape easily enough - that is, if she was alone. But with Raki around, it's not such a surefire option. So, if Raki instead was a badass swordsman as far as a human can be, it would again be no problem, but instead would make him look cool as well.

[Shadow Skill]

31 pages...

I think Claymore should have it's own Subforum :)

[WRX Sti]

considering we arent even that far into the series yet :)

[Ryllharu]

I propose that if all 4 of the slashers are half-awakened, it must not be THAT unthinkable (or even that uncommon) for claymores to reach that state. Consider that that's 4 out of 47 current claymores -- roughly one in twelve of them -- all at about the same time. Given that claymores live a relatively long (but undisclosed) time as claymores, and presumably that the male awakened being in the Slashers arc was, in fact, essentially a half-awakened dump who had apparently disposed of many such claymores throughout the years, it's probably better than 10% of them that end up that way. It might be fair to guess as many as 1 in 6 to 1 in 8 of them have half-awakened to be eaten by that guy.
I think half-awakening is a lot more uncommon than we are presented. It may have never happened before, though we really don't know what the Handlers know about it, since he didn't feel inclined to share with Galatea. Full Awakening is much more common. Miria said she's been of 7 hunts before, and Helen and Deneve have at least been on one each separate from Miria.

It was special circumstances that kept them from Awakening fully as well. Raki saved Clare in her case, and Miria "didn't want to be provoked" to Ophelia. It seems to be a matter of supreme willpower.

The Male Awakened never said they were all half-awakeneds, he only said he killed all the Claymores that have ever come to hunt him. Miria said he was a strong one as Awakeneds go. Perhaps the dead Claymores were "troublemakers," but I find it more likely the Organization chose to ignore him. After all, he was a male, and those were only used for the first generation or so, long ago.

[complich8]

But the most salient common thread among the Slashers is still that they are all half-awakened.

If that half-awakening is 1 in 10, then that would mean that 9 out of 10 either completely awaken, die in combat, or send out their black cards before they lose control. Assuming an equal breakdown between those three, that would be 1 half-awakened for every 3 awakened, every 3 black cards, and every 3 combat deaths. I'd say that's relatively uncommon without being so incredibly unheard-of.

We don't really have any clue about the organization, about how long it's been around, about how large its area is and if there are other similar organizations in the world. We don't really have any idea how long it's been since the organization got started. There's apparently no male claymores around now, but we have no idea if it's been that way for the last 10 years or the last 10 centuries. We really just can't tell.

There's a lot of unanswered questions going around. But all four of the Slashers followed the same pattern -- they're all troublemakers, but they're also all half-awakened. I don't think that any interpretation is off the table yet. And either way, there's a town right down the mountain from that male awakened being that he never really did much with. It really seems like the organization had a specific role for that guy, and possibly even an agreement with him about that role. If the town were actually trying to get rid of him, I think the organization would have sent an elite task force after their first team of hunters died, and that'd be the end of it.

[Board of Command]

And the organization "supposedly" is the one sending out the yomas in the first place.

[dragonrage]

It is plausible and profitable, if so be the case. It is definitely within the realm of possiblities , can't really say that I would be surprised.

[shinta|hikari]

I believe that a lot of claymores die and get replaced all the time. The 47 probably get different people/half youmas nearly every month, considering the fact that they fight life and death battles all the time, and even hunt awakeneds. This can also be seen with the lack of concern the organization has for claymores dying throughout the series. With this in mind, even with an extremely low chance of becoming a half awakened, like maybe 1/100 or even 1/200 awakenings (we cant really calculate the exact probability, we can only guess, and storywise I believe this fits), there is a slim chance that coincidence allowed 4 of them to exist in one batch at the same time.

That male youma may have fought and killed other half awakeneds before as well, but I think he was also used to simply be the "clean-up" for the organization, regardless of the nature of the troublemakers sent. He may have also existed for years and years, and in consideration to the idea that claymores get replaced consistently, him killing awakeneds despite the small chance of half-awakening becomes realistic.

EDIT - I dont think that the youmas are officially in cahoots with the organization, since as we have seen, they are smart enough to act in a manner that benefits them the most, but are simply too treacherous. The seeming team-up between the awakened and the organization is probably a mutual gain thing, without any formla agreement between the two parties.

[Kraco]

EDIT - I dont think that the youmas are officially in cahoots with the organization, since as we have seen, they are smart enough to act in a manner that benefits them the most, but are simply too treacherous. The seeming team-up between the awakened and the organization is probably a mutual gain thing, without any formla agreement between the two parties.

Neither of these two requires any agreements. The regular yoma are like beasts or like a plague. You just set it free in secret and a little later appear as a savior to help people with the cure. All the better if your own tools (Claymores) get killed every so often: It makes it look even less suspicious that you had anything to do with it in the first place.

The problem with the Awakened beings is that no matter what else, the fact remains the organization makes a living out of hunting all yoma, including Awakened beings (it matters little to the ordinary people asking for help what manner of a beast it is that keeps eating them). And Awakened beings themselves seem to delight in killing Claymores. So, any trust there would be highly transient. It seems far more likely to me the male Awakened being just happened to have a personality that made him spend his time in that one place. There are people like that. The organization at some point took notice and started to use it as a waste disposal site.

[shinta|hikari]

Yeah, that was my point. I just clarified it earlier since someone mentioned that the organization may have an agreement with the awakened being, and I was highly doubtful of that.

[ktchris69]

Hmmm, but then, how do you explain that the male awakened being knew about Miria? And also that the black guy with Galtea said that this awakened being is a "special one"???

[Kraco]

I don't remember anymore exactly what the male one was telling, but it could have been a bunch of lies. Or guesses. Or he could have heard something from his previous victims. Or maybe the shadowy guy who was with Galatea paid the Awakened one a visit every now and then, playing chess, drinking wine and exchanging news. After all, the dude would hardly have posed a threat to an Awakened one, so he might have been able to keep his life.

[ktchris69]

Thats an interesting line of thought. But i can hardly imagine one of his previous victim telling him details about other claymores when they are on the verge of dying, tortured by him. Unless he was trying specifically trying to pump intel out of her. And i certainly dont think theyd know about the ones being sent "in the event" they were to fail....Maybe everything he said was a lie, but the part where he stated that Miria was known as phantom miria, that was a clear illustration of his knowledge of her abilities. Lolz @ the ocassional visit theory....

Hit the post botton only once, regardless if the site begins to lag on you or not

[Ryllharu]

I assumed the "special" meant only that it was a male. Remember that all higher ranking Claymores are aware that they turn into Awakeneds. The only reason we (through Clare and Raki) did not is because Clare had never been on a hunt before. The lowest ranking ones believe the lie that they turn into regular yoma. We saw that with Elena.

Of the four Slashers, only Miria knew that there had previously been Male Claymores generations ago. That sounds pretty special. There have been made implications during and after the fight with the Male Awakened that Miria investigates the Organization. That combined with her special ability, presumed often seen by other Claymores in the teamed hunts, word will get around about Miria.

I do think it's more likely that that Male simply stays there, perhaps it's his territory, and the Organization takes advantage of him being there to send troublemakers there. I highly doubt there is any kind of formalized agreement. The Awakened did have a human form, so perhaps he gathers information that way.


As a side note to my first paragraph, the reason Teresa didn't mention that Priscilla would soon Awaken I leave up to a continuity error. It would take out a lot of the surprise for the audience that "Awakening" could actually happen.

[Buffalobiian]

I'm not sure whether there's been any agreement between the male Awakened and the Organisation or not, but it doesn't matter. Even if they've never talked, the Awakened should figure out what's going on anyway when Claymores too weak to defeat him are being sent again and again. (of course the last batch was an exception :D)

I think that introducing a Male Awakened being just introduced an opportunity to reveal why there aren't any male claymores around these days. Also tells us why it's strong. Male Awakened beings were stronger claymores (in general) than female ones. (not sure who said that, think it was Galateas handler. Mentioned them as failures in terms of staying claymores, but success in terms of their powers as claymores while they lasted). But all in all, an awakened is just an awakened. They vary in power just as normal youma do, but on a different scale.

I think "special" meant that Awakened wasn't just any random Awakened and served a special purpose to the organisation, agreed or not.

[masamuneehs]

i lost interest in this show at episode 6. MAN, how I wish I'd just watched episode 7! because now I'm frickin hooked! This is an awesome series, and I'm very happy with the direction it's going in. I think the Organization is up to their eyes in dirty shit, including making all the Yoma. Honestly, it's probably some sick cross of population control and extortion... Just my gut feeling...

Miria is the bomb. She just about organized a little splinter group, and I liked her attitude even before that. All the Claymores are bitches to some extent, but I like her kind more. Ophelia, on the other hand, just pisses me off. How could such a dirty Claymore (killing humans?) get so high in the Organization without someone noticing? More likely, they do know, they just haven't heard a complaint about it and are willing to look the other way, especially since she seems to like provoking partially Awakeneds into Awakening, THEN goes and kills them...

I nearly shat myself when Priscillia cut off Teresa's arms. I was convinced that Teresa was going to become the villian in this story. I love the gore in this show. The action is good too. Music is OK.

Raki will be helpful, I'm convinced. He might not ever get to the level of even a low 40 number, but he'll be helpful. The fact that he held out as long as he did against Ophelia indicates that much, since if he'd died, I do believe Clare would have gone berserk and probably then been unable to not go bananas.

I don't really buy the 'Half-Awakened' thing. I think it's all a matter of self-control. Prsicillia didn't have it, but Teresa and Clare do. Yoma are quite mindless, often lacking the intelligence and/or self control to not just slaughter people. The smarter ones have some self-control, but only insomuch as it aids them continuing their lifestyle. They don't have the control to squash their craving for eating.

Priscilla delighted in her Awakened powers, thus keeping her 'Awakened form'. We've seen the Four Slashers (Miria, Clare, Deneve, other chick) awaken almost to the extent that they've taken a similar form. They stop themselves, even after they 'Awaken' like Clare briefly does in episode 12. ...maybe this counts as awakening only half... but I'm still not sure it's solely about how much of their Yoki they release... it's also about self-control. Priscilla couldn't go back after she got to around 70%, but I think Clare can come back even from 90+%. Just my hunch.

I don't imagine Ophelia to have much self-control. Her loathing for Awakeneds is probably the only thing keeping her in check. I think if she released even 50% of her Yoma powers, she'd go bananas and just be so elated with her powers and the havoc it creates that she'd convert to a fully Awakened state.

[Ryllharu]

From Miria's explanation and speculations in episode 11, they are fully Awakened. But not really. She speculated before that conclusion that Deneve and Helen can use their specialties, regeneration and limb elongation respectively, because they are close to maxing out their Yoki. She said they are abilities that only appear as one gets exceeding close to the borderline. The border Teresa described as 70%. Yoki levels obviously vary from Claymore to Claymore. Clare is pretty weak overall compared to Miria and the other two.

So, somehow, the four of them are Awakened, but somehow let it go. Hence, "partially Awakened." It was my understanding from the test with Deneve, that the four of them no longer have a set limit at all. They can access all of their Yoki.

It definitely seems to come down to willpower. Deneve is pretty composed, so fully unloading her energy into regeneration, she could still hold back the euphoria. Miria didn't want to be provoked by Ophelia of all people. Clare didn't want to become what she had seen Priscilla become years ago. Priscilla was untrained, emotional, and enraged, so she couldn't, just like the males.

[?igma]

The question referring to the organization and what it's exactly trying to gain by making "agreements" with Awakened beings, while on the other side also whiping them out, íf they indeed make those arrangements,it becomes significantly more interesting to me, when you wonder why they underestimated the danger of Teresa and the possibility of Priscilla awakening.

With all their knowledge about Claymores and Youma(Yoma?) they still failed to appreciate the dangers properly ? I don't think so. I think they got what they were aiming for. Priscilla wasn't just powerful and unexperienced, she was also emotionally highly unreliable. There is not a chance they missed that even on first sight. This whole thing was set up and I hope we'll find out in the future,what the reasons are for this vicious circle. Money could not possibly be the excuse for it.

[complich8]

Consider that awakening has the following properties:

(1) Morphological change (change in physical form)
(2) Yoki change (yoki with a different "feel" to it, if you will)
(3) Metabolic change (voracious appetite for flesh)
(4) Mental change (loss of identification with and protection of humans)

Clare, Miria and the others arguably have 1 -- they can undergo pretty much the full physical change -- but we haven't seen the sort of complete, majestic changes in them that characterize the 3 other awakened beings we've seen so far. So ... maybe, maybe not. Well call this half of the trait.

By undergoing the associated physical change they also get the yoki change (possibly an always-on change, considering that Ophelia picked up on it right away on meeting Clare). So, whole of trait number 2.

While their appetites have experienced an up-tick compared to normal claymores (or so they've mentioned), they're certainly not in the "voracious" category like the fully awakened beings we've seen -- they're not driven by constant hunger like yoma are. So, maybe half of trait 3.

Further, they still identify with and protect humans. None of trait 4 at all.

So, they've got two of the four "awakened" characteristics, and don't really have the other two of the four. Thus, they're "half" awakened. They got the good but resisted the hard-to-fight bad.

Something we don't know about their current state though is whether it's stable. Being a claymore seems to be a slippery slope with awakening at the bottom. Are they on a ledge with a nice dropoff if they step off it? Or are they at the bottom and just survived the landing?

I think that the use of the term "half-awakened" is more because we really need to differentiate the slashers from the "awakened beings" -- Priscilla, the male awakened, freaky tentacle-bitch, and so on and so forth. Calling them awakened beings washes away the distinction, even if that distinction is subtle and they are technically in the same category.

[shinta|hikari]

It should not be forgotten that the 4 half awakened claymores almost awakened by accident, and not the usual gradual loss of willpower. The conditions they were in simply triggered the transformation, and as mentioned earlier in this series, such things do happen. But despite such circumstances, they were able to control the urge to awaken completely, so the above speculations about willpower seem to be correct.

I think that it is easier to become half awakened if the conditions for the awakening are abnormal, since the will of the claymore itself is pretty much intact and not in the worn down state some of the others are.

[Munsu]

I'm gonna have to disagree. You only need to see the Priscilla example to disprove your assesment. Also, with the "gradual loss" you speak of, the Claymores have time to notice how they are changing and send in their Black Card. I think Claymores run the risk of Awakening if they suddenly and unexpectedly go beyond their limits.

We've only witnessed one example of a Claymore fully Awakening, and that example was of an inexperienced Claymore.

Sure, will power has something to do with it, but I don't agree with your reasons behind it.

[Kraco]

Most of the Claymores may not even know they can fight back the transformation. They have probably been told if they go above a certain limit, then that's it, they will turn into yoma and it's all over. That manner of thinking among the Claymores would be beneficial for the organization, because otherwise lots of Claymores would try to train themselves to become half-awakened (in practice just extremely strong) and not all would succeed, naturally, filling the world with Awakened beings.

So, when a regular Claymore feels she's losing it, she may send the black card thinking there's nothing she can do anymore, because fighting back and actually winning such a fight might never occur to her at all.

[shinta|hikari]

The only thing Priscilla's example proves is that she is inexperienced and has zero willpower, and kinda nuts.

What I was pointing out is the statistical fact that 4 out of 4 half awakened claymores awakened under abnormal circumstances. Like Kraco said, most claymores usually die by sending out the black card if they feel they cannot control it anymore. Since it is a gradual transformation, there cannot be a moment like in Clare's case (and everyone eleses I believe) where they suddenly overcome the urge and return to normal. Actually, I think its almost safe to say that a half awakening cannot result from a gradual loss of control for a claymore.

Priscilla is just one case, and just because she was shown first doesnt mean she is the standard. She also lacked the willpower and the reason to stay sane. Its only common sense to base it on all the facts given, and the facts point to what I concluded above.

[masamuneehs]

i sorta disagree with you too. it's true that the 4 Slashers awoke in the heat of the moment, suddenly accessing their forbidden Yoki without losing their head. But the very fact that Claymores send out black cards indicates that there's a slope, not just a sudden drop-off of self-control. Only when they lose complete control do they fully Awaken (well, maybe not by Ophelia's standards, but that bitch is nuts).

Then again, could Priscilla have come back from 50%? Or whatever? She was under alot of stress and wasn't cut out for the job in the first place, and it's true that her loss of control was gradual, but I got the feeling that once she started running after Teresa on her own, she was going to lose it no matter what (barring an unlikely early end to the battle with her killing Teresa).

The half awakened states are a little different, because some of the 4 Slashers didn't even think the time they went over their 'limit' was that big of a deal. Maybe it's difference in training, like Kraco mentioned, but maybe they're just able to climb back up the slope towards sanity. I think Ophelia, for example, would lose it completely if she even briefly awakened the way Clare or the Slashers do.

[Munsu]

The only thing Priscilla's example proves is that she is inexperienced and has zero willpower, and kinda nuts.

What I was pointing out is the statistical fact that 4 out of 4 half awakened claymores awakened under abnormal circumstances. Like Kraco said, most claymores usually die by sending out the black card if they feel they cannot control it anymore. Since it is a gradual transformation, there cannot be a moment like in Clare's case (and everyone eleses I believe) where they suddenly overcome the urge and return to normal. Actually, I think its almost safe to say that a half awakening cannot result from a gradual loss of control for a claymore.

Priscilla is just one case, and just because she was shown first doesnt mean she is the standard. She also lacked the willpower and the reason to stay sane. Its only common sense to base it on all the facts given, and the facts point to what I concluded above.
The point is that the "gradual loss" you speak off, should prevent the Claymore from even getting into a situation where she risks being Awakened, hence the system. The sudden surge of Yoki, and going beyond their limits is the important element here.

Sure, you can argue that a Claymore that has been around a long time with this "gradual loss" probably can't become half awakened, but the Claymore should send the Black Card before it gets to the point where she can't come back. Claymores don't want to become Yoma, they wan't to die human.

Still, you're mostly left with the possibility of inexperienced Claymores and Claymores who are under control of their selves actually going beyond their limits where they reach the "Awakening" state, usually because they are faced with a desperate situation where they release a huge amount of yoki suddenly. Wether they Awaken or not is probably do to some will power they posses (among other factors), but I really doubt it has anything to do with them "gradually losing" will power throughout the years.

So the point is that, yes will power is factor, but the wear and tear of the years really isn't just because the "gradual loss" of will power results in the Claymore gradually becoming a Yoma, with probably a high-percentage chance (I would think near a 100%) of the Claymore sending a Black Card.

Sure, these 4 Slayers may have been in some special circumstances. But Claymores that are subjected to these special circumstances with possibilites of Awakening or Half-Awakening should be "in good health" in the first place. So the question is why did these 4 Claymores only half-awakened among other healthy Claymores that went beyond their limits to the Awekening state? I think experience, some inner strength play a huge role, and more importantly, some unique outside forces that kept them from Awakening (Raki, Ophellia's threat, etc.). We really don't have anyone else to compare them to, only to Priscilla who was inexperienced and Awakened and Clare's friend who actually sent the Black Card as she was "gradually losing" her will power and becoming a yoma.

[?igma]

The only thing Priscilla's example proves is that she is inexperienced and has zero willpower, and kinda nuts.


Priscilla is just one case, and just because she was shown first doesnt mean she is the standard. She also lacked the willpower and the reason to stay sane. Its only common sense to base it on all the facts given, and the facts point to what I concluded above.

You don't seem to realize that the Priscilla event was more than just "an event". Not only is the entire story based around Priscilla, her awakening was also rather at a conveniant time. They could not dispose of Teresa without an awakening to begin with.

Every single of the Claymores estimated Priscilla's power and potential beyond the reach of that of Teresa. Only experience and age being the things which would undoubtly lead to a loss. So we send in the emotional unstable and completely untrained Priscilla to kill our most experienced Claymore in the field. Gosh what wóuld happen?

So the way I see it, it's not based on willpower only. If their training comes close to brainwashing, and to be hounest, as far as has been exposed, you might think it as such, they would never even believe in the option of beating the Awakening, perhaps they would struggle long enough to hold their previous form, in the hope that they could beat reaching their limit, thát is willpower . They would never consider going past their limit and reverting back, because they don't believe in the possibility. Willpower only works on belief. Fear is a great way of handling these invisible barriers. Fear can quickly make people lose all their willpower to begin with.

So far, I'd still consider them accidents. Accidents that are quickly being disposed off, before word of this could reach other Claymores. Although accident might be too strong, because it's obvious the male Awakened had regular visitors. Perhaps they should be calculated as anomalies. A percentage of the whole.

I'd expect nothing less from such a coldhearted organization.

[Ryllharu]

I don't think the training is all that much brainwashing. A lot of the Claymores appear to have been traumatized. The organization takes in a lot of these girls. We know that Clare has thus far been the only willing volunteer. (If that wasn't explicitly stated, that fact is all over the place used as a series description.) Priscilla obviously saw her father torn apart before her own eyes. Clare saw her idol beheaded. Ophelia seems to have an insatiable bloodlust for killing Awakeneds, so there's bound to be some trauma there. They may no longer be completely human, but I think a lot of them genuinely don't want the same thing that happened to them to happen to other girls and families. That also means they don't want to become what they hate. Remember Priscilla's key line, "If I had known it felt this good...there was really no reason at all to hold back." They Awaken just like the males do, because it feels good once they go that far. Until they are overcome by that euphoria, they still consciously want to stay "human."

This argument keeps going back and forth with little conclusion. We also appear to be saying the same sorts of things over and over. I'd like a little more information about the inner workings of the Organization, or a few more examples of Awakened Ones (this last one didn't even have a name...). Given the facts we have in the series so far, it may be prudent to wait until we have more information.

[shinta|hikari]

Actually, the wear and tear thing is proven already, and has been mentioned quite often. Claymores lose their ability to fight of the Youma in them as time goes on. You can think of this as a gradual loss of will to fight it, or the yoma energy getting too strong to fight, either way, this shows that the chance of awakening grows higher as time passes because the claymore gradually becomes unable to control their youma self.

Everyone has recognized the fact that willpower (or the ability to resist the complete youma transformation) is a factor in becoming a half-awakened, and if this factor is weakened or lowered, then the chances for half-awakening logically would become lower. There are no examples on this account, since it only is an assumption based on what has happened.

I didnt say that this was the only factor. I was actually the first one to say that special circumstances are involved, and that along with their willpower, is what caused the 4 to become half awakened (yes, stuf like Raki etc).

[Shadow Skill]

Teresa said all Claymore learn about their limits in battle. Prescilla did not know her limits, being new and all. I do believe it was stated that Prescilla was a bit psychologically unstable. So that's a clue there. :/

As for wear and tear, I have not seen it and every explanation dictates the opposite. The older Claymores have more control. :/ Teresa, never used her powers until Prescilla, but she knew her limits quite well.

Unless they receive proper rest, this could be the wear and tear you are talking about. Using their powers too much, without rest or recovering. A.K.A using powers while heavily wounded, which according to Miria, can push you over the limits quicker, a lot quicker, than if you were refreshed and have no wounds.

[shinta|hikari]

Wear and tear as in every claymore that has sent out a black card, and I assume there are quite a bit since a system actually exists for it.

EDIT - Let me clarify. Wear and tear means that as a claymore uses their Youki, they are slowly changing more and more into an awakened being. And normally, as time goes by and a claymore experiences more battles, they are forced to use their Youki in certain situations, and these uses pile up and gradually weaken their ability to fight the urge to awaken. Thats why they try to avoid using it as much as possible. This fact has already been established in the show.

[Shadow Skill]

I just watched Episode 2 again. From the explanation there, it seems like turning in to an Awakened Being, or Yoma, is more of a mental state of mind. Restraining themselves from going over the limit I assume. I guess it depends on what side gives up first, the Yoma side or the Human side. Which could explain why the mentally unstable are quick to pass their limits. They don't have the concentration or experience required to hold back their own power.

According to Clare and her friend Elena, who was turning in to a Yoma first (Despite both being made in to Claymores at the same time (Her friend starting after Clare). Her friend used her powers too much. Which most likely weakened her mentally, not physically. So I am guessing it's more of a Psychological Problem, rather than a physical one. Since she talked about Strengthening her heart first before using the Yoma powers...

So who knows. :/

[complich8]

It could also be that the "older claymores have better control" thing is somewhat a function of natural selection. Or, to put it another way, weak claymores with poor control of their powers will either be killed or awaken in desperation in a fight, where someone who has much higher inherent skill and control has a much higher life expectancy because any given fight won't push them as hard, and because they're just plain better fighters.

Here's a new one: think of yoma powers the same way you'd think of a highly addictive drug. Someone like Teresa virtually never used it, and never got addicted. Priscilla found herself outclassed and started hammering it hoping to get the edge she needed to win, and ultimately OD'ed. People who send out their black cards are the ones who recognize that they're irrevocably becoming addicts and can't fight the jones anymore, and don't want the next snapshot they see of their lives to be them in an alley shooting up.

(A similar interpretation applied with other drugs might lead to an alternate, Leary-influenced meaning for "awakening" ...)

[Shadow Skill]

I like that anaology better. Ya, it makes sense to me for some reason, despite never taking any drugs of any kind.

The abilty to resist the urge just goes away after using it so much. Couldnt have put it any better. :)

[jaguar04p]

It's out get it.
Eclipse - Claymore eps 13 (h264) (http://torrents.no-sekai.de/eclipse/%5bEclipse%5d%20Claymore%20-%2013%20(h264)%20%5b112FD469%5d.mkv.torrent)
Eclipse - Claymore eps 13 (xvid) (http://torrents.no-sekai.de/eclipse/%5bEclipse%5d%20Claymore%20-%2013%20(XviD)%20%5b299DF6C3%5d.avi.torrent)

[shinta|hikari]

That was just an amazing fight. I like the fact that it was more like trying to survive than depending on some power boost to get through the battle. Still, the power boost has to come somewhere, and she is gonna get it the next eps with the newly learned skill.

Having only one hand is a big disadvantage, but I hope she stays that way for a while if not forever, since it will make things much more interesting and refreshing.

[Ryllharu]

Isn't it obvious? Irene will help her attach a chainsaw to it. What better weapon against evil? There's no boomstick, but the Flash Sword will have to do.

It's either that or an old Blacksmith will attach a cannon arm.

[animus]

A cannon arm with a automated crossbow attached on top of it!

[Kraco]

I'm happy you guys aren't responsible for the script writing...

This was a very suitable end for Ophelia. It's always nice when someone ends up something she hated the most. Still, I can't help but wonder if the organization actually used her to elimate other Claymores frequently. Those that weren't to be removed by sending them to that Awakened male. I get the feeling any Claymore would be at very high risk when in her company. After all, regular Claymores are half yoma, and I think that might have been enough for the bitch to kill them (I bet she hated herself equally, as well).

This series keeps going strong. I wonder how many eps it will take before we learn what happened to Raki.

[Yukimura]

Same here about the writing comment. Anyway, Irene's new outfit was smexy as hell, even if she does only have one arm. Clare + Flashsword should = hotness.

Also notice anything odd here?
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/8378/somethingwrongwiththispva3.jpg
Screencap from ep13 @22:51

[Kraco]

Also notice anything odd here?

Hmm... What is odd? I didn't even recognize the character from that clip...

[animus]

Ophelia must give a mean handjob with that Rippling Sword technique. I like how this show knows of common cliches but dispell them like nobody's business. Like Teresa giving mercy to Priscilla (A Cliche), but then quickly not expecting a split second decapitation, and just like this episode we think Clare will be saved by surviving a drop off a high altitude body of water (A cliche), but then that notion was completely gone when Ophelia acted like knew she was tricked, and just had more fun from that.

[complich8]

Clare the amputee...

I'm hoping next time she fights, she awakens enough to regrow it. Symmetry is hawt.

[Ryllharu]

All joking aside, Ophelia is a really interesting character. She witnessed her brother torn apart, and perhaps that revenge has made her into the bloodlust seeking Claymore she is today.

Ophelia is saddened that she doesn't have a catchy name like some of the other high ranking Claymores do. She's sadistic to the extreme, egotistical, and likes to play games with her prey.

At the same time, you can't help but see she's still very much the weak little girl who saw her brother killed before her own eyes. Irene shows up, and Ophelia gives off a quick (and surprisingly feminine) "Arara?" in confusion. When she begins to get pressed, she got angry at first, but you could see the fear creeping into her from the art and Emi Shinohara's superb acting. When she's hurt and bleeding alone, we see it even more pronounced. She's the same scared little girl she's always been. Her reaction to that age old fear is the same thing you see in so many children. She gets angry at it. She became a sadist to fight against her fear. She became angry at her brother for leaving her.

I love when they make what should be a fairly one-dimensional character like Ophelia have such subtle weaknesses.

[masamuneehs]

Clare the amputee...

I'm hoping next time she fights, she awakens enough to regrow it. Symmetry is hawt.

I concur... At this juncture, it'd be nice for her to gain that Yoki ability. I don't want her to get a fake arm... The similarities between the best manga ever and this show would just become too much...

I'm confused about what Teresa said. She said that 'Teresa is inside of you' to Clare, and that it means Clare is only a quarter, not a half. I take that to imply that she's only a quarter Yoma (part of her excellent self-control?).... But that means they infuse an actual Yoma inside of the girls when they make them Claymores?

The Flash Sword attack is cool. Ophelia was alright in this episode (I still don't like her). She's like a bratty, sadistic Priscilla (lost her bro instead of her dad), especially now that they're both Awakened. Much like Priscilla, her Awakening seems to have been greatly caused by personal emotional distress, not actually being pushed over her limits in actual battle.

[Kraco]

But that means they infuse an actual Yoma inside of the girls when they make them Claymores?

Wasn't that established a long time ago? They are hybrids, after all. Still, I'd think it's quite vague to begin with if the result is half yoma or 40% yoma or 60% yoma. I mean, what exactly defines that? Or perhaps it's just some mythical blood parameter and the amount of stuff infused doesn't matter, just the qualities it has.

[Ryllharu]

The percentage of Yoma in Clare is distilled through Teresa, since her voluntary join into the Organization was under the stipulation that Teresa's flesh and blood be put inside her. Most Claymores (incl Teresa) are composed of "half" human and "half" yoma. Clare is "half" human and "half" Teresa. Half of a half is a quarter.

Ophelia brought up and explained an interesting aspect about Claymores. There are "types" of Claymores. Defensive and Offensive. She explained that Clare was Offensive, and as such, can't regenerate her limbs. So she sliced Clare's arm into tiny bits. Claymores that were creating wanting to protect their bodies become defensive, and heal their wounds quickly. Offensive ones cannot close their wounds as quickly, but are stronger attackers.

We know that Deneve was Defensive, since she regenerated her whole arm. I'm guessing Miria's phantoms make her Offensive. Helen is probably Offensive, and Irene obviously is Offensive.

[complich8]

I imagine that the "offensive" and "defensive" are not so much an either/or as a point on the continuum. Based on that belief, I don't think it's inconceivable that it would be completely out of reach for say a 90%-yoki clare to regenerate a missing limb. I don't think it's a skill she could do without releasing a lot of yoki, and I don't think it's something she could reasonably do in a battle like Deneve could, but I wouldn't rule it completely out.

[Kraco]

The percentage of Yoma in Clare is distilled through Teresa, since her voluntary join into the Organization was under the stipulation that Teresa's flesh and blood be put inside her. Most Claymores (incl Teresa) are composed of "half" human and "half" yoma. Clare is "half" human and "half" Teresa. Half of a half is a quarter.

That is obvious, but what I meant is that if a girl weighs 40 kg, is she infused with another 40 kg of yoma matter to make her 50% yoma? Or maybe 15 kg of human matter is removed and 25 kg of yoma is added to make a 50% human-yoma of 50 kg total. That's what I meant. But that sounds a bit dubious, to be honest, so it must be that what ever amount of yoma is added, the result is 50% hybrid as long as it was pure yoma material.

Clare being of the offensive type surely hints she hadn't yet reached practically any of her true potential, because so far her strongest skill was purely defensive (to read the opponents yoki and evade the attacks). And her attack power was negligible like Miria said. Well, if there was truth in Ophelia's words, then Clare should be able to become much, much stronger.

[Ryllharu]

But can we classify reading Yoki as a defensive ability? So far it has been used defensively by Clare, but Teresa used it offensively against the other four by exploiting openings they left open.

Given the uniqueness of her speciality at it (since no Claymores other than Teresa and Galatea have shown any aptitude at all for it, nor bothered) I would hesitate to classify it as either Defensive or Offensive. They all admit their opponent/ally is using it, but no one has yet tried to do the same after commenting about it.

It's pretty obvious why Clare became an Offensive type, she wants to slash Priscilla's head off.

[Munsu]

I don't think the skill used have anything to do with the type of Claymore they are. I think it has more to do with the way the Youki behaves in them.

[masamuneehs]

but she can re-attach dropped limbs... that's got to be a simpler, more basic form of regeneration... to connect the muscles and tendons, there HAS to be regeneration. i think that while Ophelia's statement about Offensive and Defensive dispositions stands, it doesn't mean Clare won't be able to regen her arm eventually.

In fact, from that screenshot Yuki posted... well, it's too hazy to see. It would be her right arm, or maybe someone holding her underwater...

[animus]

but she can re-attach dropped limbs... that's got to be a simpler, more basic form of regeneration... to connect the muscles and tendons, there HAS to be regeneration. i think that while Ophelia's statement about Offensive and Defensive dispositions stands, it doesn't mean Clare won't be able to regen her arm eventually.

In fact, from that screenshot Yuki posted... well, it's too hazy to see. It would be her right arm, or maybe someone holding her underwater...

It's impossible to completely regenerate a limb for an offensive type. This is stated by Ophelia herself. Irene is obviously an offensive type, and even all these years after the Teresa incident she is still without a left arm. An offensive type probably has no means of completely regenerating an arm from scratch outside of awakening, I'd guess. If not-awakening and regenerating it was possible, Irene wouldn't have kept pestering her about losing her dominant arm over and over, and stating that she's stubborn and useless atm.

[complich8]

Sure sure, but again, I don't think the difference between "offensive" and "defensive" is quite as much a dichotomy as you or ophelia makes it out to be. Attacking is a part of defense, and defense is a part of attacking.

Also, remember that awakening and coming back from it is something that's not out of reach for Clare.

[Munsu]

Well she probably couldn't use much of her youki, which I would assume she would need a lot of through a great deal of time, to escape the organization. So if she had stayed with the organization and were able to release her youki freely, i think she would eventually been able to regenerate. Not sure though, but it seems very plausible.

[animus]

Her awakening's only a half-awakening. I guess you can say she's only barely rimming the top edge. I see the terms offensive and defensive types to just be a general, ambigious term for lack of more intricate terms on the creators behalf.


Well she probably couldn't use much of her youki, which I would assume she would need a lot of through a great deal of time, to escape the organization. So if she had stayed with the organization and were able to release her youki freely, i think she would eventually been able to regenerate. Not sure though, but it seems very plausible.

Clare whose not hiding from the Organization should then be focusing on regenerating her dominant arm rather than training her weaker left arm on a technique that requires a lot of time and willpower as well. It's not like Clare's short on time, she did end up sleeping for a week.

[Munsu]

Well, if regeneration is an actual possiblity, we don't know how much time and effort it would require of her. So maybe she figures it's on her best interest to learn a new technique and maybe convert her left arm to a dominant one. She really only needs one arm to fight.

Ophellia did say that it was impossible to her. But we don't know in what context. Was it impossible for her to do it during the fight? Or was it impossible for Clare to regenerate for her entire life? I'm leaning towards the during the fight thought, as I think comp is partly right on that it's not as much a dichotomy as we're led to believe.

[Ryllharu]

It's not cut and dry, but compare two types of regeneration. There's regeneration that closes wounds, tissue growing from two edges of a cut, something that every living thing does, and regenerating a new limb, where tissue is forming into a very specific shape and growing out of a single side. They are drastically different forms of regeneration.

Clare has been pierced clean through a couple of times, as were Miria and Helen. We've only see three injuries involving severed limbs, Deneve, Irene, and now Clare. One was able to regenerate the whole limb partially, and Miria explained that it was possible to do towards the limit. So perhaps Irene just failed to put any energy into it.

On the other side of the discussion, Irene is clearly a Offensive type. She can put a lot of energy into an attacking style of combat. If Ophelia is to be believed, then there's no way Irene could regenerate in a similar manner as Deneve.

It's really a question of whether or not you believe Ophelia. I see her as taking more joy in telling Clare the inevitable truth and toying with her, than lying outright. The plain way she said "It's impossible for you," gave me the impression that she really meant it in that manner, not simply some specific time frame.

[Kraco]

She really only needs one arm to fight.

I have no fencing training, but I'd say that's not anywhere near the truth. If weapon is used with both hands, then there's no ambiguity, if it's a one-handed weapon, then the other hand is used for balance and possibly for various tricks depending on the surroundings. Balance would seem like a very important thing seeing how Claymores are slender girls using big weapons that could weigh several kilograms more than your run-of-the-mill human swords.

What comes to the regeneration and Ophelia's words, I'm not too sure she would lie, because she intended to kill Clare in any case, and for sure didn't appear to be a person who would be uncertain of whether she could succeed in that - made very evident by how she didn't do it quickly but proceeded to torture Clare, thus granting her theoretical chances all the time.

However, I wouldn't trust a person like Ophelia to actually know anything useful. Sure, she was strong in a sense, as long as the opponents were weaker in one way or the other and she knew she had the upper hand. But as soon as Irene appeared, she was worth nothing and couldn't improvise anything to save her skin. I don't view her as a person who would discuss with others at all to learn theoretical knowledge to broaden her views. What she knew about regeneration she had probably learned first hand (and as we saw, her control of her limits wasn't stellar), or by observing weak Claymores she was torturing.

Long story short, she was probably telling the truth, but only the fraction of it she knew.

[shinta|hikari]

I dont think Ophelia sucks as much as you say. She may be psycho, but she was really strong and quite experienced in battles, as shown in the fight between Clare and her. She also wouldnt lie, since it is out of character in that context.

I think it is impossible to regenerate Clare's arm normally, but there might be some plot device that will allow her to do so in the future, like awakening and regenerating a new arm then coming back again. It doesnt matter if she is an attack type claymore, since when a claymore awakens, they should all have the ability to regenerate severed limbs (all awakened beings have been able to do so thus far)

[masamuneehs]

i was wondering: what the hell do they make those swords out of anyway? It seems that no matter who the stronger fighter is, no matter what kind of momentum the attack has, the sword itself can stop just about anything. Clare's "lower power" defense can deflect the massive attacks of Ophelia and Awakeneds...

is this something that will eventually be covered? (a la broken sword and soul searching to recieve a new weapon, a typical anime story device?) or are we just to accept that all Claymores are equally and perfectly crafted?

[Board of Command]

The swords are assumed to be indestructable. Most anime is like that, actually. In Berserk, Griffith could defend against Gatt's OMGWTFBBQ-sized sword with a little rapier.

[BananaFob]

Is it just me, or did anybody see a naked Orphelia in the preview? Judging from the next episode's preview, Orphelia will come back to attack Clare. Has anyone considered a possibility that when Irene is done training Clare, she might give her right arm to Clare to use after seeing more of Clare's determination and will power to kill Priscilla? That would be awesome.


But that sounds a bit dubious, to be honest, so it must be that what ever amount of yoma is added, the result is 50% hybrid as long as it was pure yoma material.

Yeah, that should be the case, because looking at the scenario, Clare probably drank Teresa's blood (or ate her head, whatever you want to feel like) right on the spot instead of going back to her body to eat the most of the body remains there.

[Munsu]

Yeah, and we'll have an armless Irene going around. That would be very dumb by her part. Maybe Clare will go berserk and tear her limbs off, that would be a better case scenario, but I don't see that happening. I'm leaning towards she going to the awakening-state and regrow it some time in the future when she's losing a fight.

Maybe Clare will just bite down on Irene's neck and regrow it that way. We are in a Vampire world after all.

[Idealistic]

Man, Claymore gets better and better every episode.

I also think that Irene will give Clare her right arm. I mean is it just a coincidence that Irene has her right arm and Clare has her left arm? If that Offense and Defense thing Ophelia talks about is true then Clare won't be able to regenerate lost limbs so given Irene's arm, she can still attach it.

Clare is probably too weak to learn the Flash Sword with her left arm.

I think next episode Ophelia finds Clare and Irene. Ophelia aims for Irene first since she was so fixated on her at the end of episode 13. Ophelia will probably cut off Irene's right arm and do a blah blah speech "Now you can't do that Flash Sword of yours." Irene dies, and then Clare quickly grabs Irene's right arm, unleashes her Yoki, and attaches Irene's arm. Then she WTFPWNS Ophelia because now she can read Yoki and can counter with the Flash Sword.

And then!!! Our heroine moves on with 2 people, no 3 people she is fighting for in her heart. Teresa, Raki, and Irene.

[Yukimura]

@Bud: When did we enter vampire world? The only blood I remember being consumed was Ophelia with Clares and I think Priscilla licked some when she awakened, but i'm not 100% on that.

[Munsu]

Just reffer to some of my earlier posts in this thread and you'll see that I was joking.

[Buffalobiian]

Seeing Irene again reminds me of the older debates we've had. About how strong Claymores are now compared to older generations.

Ophelia got nailed by Irene. No.4 vs No.2. I think Irene would have nailed whoever No.4 was in her era in much the same manner, so I don't think Claymores improve as drastically as some of us thought, if at all.

BTW, in the preview, chick with the blinded left eye, another Claymore who survived the Pricillia incident? Irene's, I can believe, but she had her head impaled. Can't wait to hear her story...

Edit: (No.4 vs No.3, Irene was officially degraded, though I still think of her as No.2. Pricillia doesn't deserve her tittle)

[kenren]

Wow.. i had never expect Irene to be alive. Clare had her legs cut off before, now her arm. I can't imagine the pain she had to go through @_@

[complich8]

the really odd part about that is that the same person took both her legs and her arm....

You'd think they'd spread the amputation-love around a bit, you know ... have one person take an arm home, another take a leg, and so on... but it's all Ophelia ...

[Ryllharu]

That's just like Ophelia, playing with her toys until their limbs fall off.

[Aeon]

This episode was awesome, I wonder what Ophelia reaction wouldve been learning that the one that Clare wants to kill is the same person that killed her brother. Also wanna see her reaction when she finds out that she has awakened. Sadly I think Irene will be dying soon, she's spent all this time hiding her yoki but since she's training Clare thats just like telling the organization that she's really alive.

[Buffalobiian]

We haven't come across a rule that says "You must serve us while you still live" sorta thing have we? Not that the Organization will be nice enough to let you retire.

[Assassin]

regarding the limb reattachment thing, just cuz ophelia said it doesn't necessarily make it 100% true. We have to remember that calymores dont actually know everything there is to know about themselves. Very few actually bother to find out about themselves or the organization, and just stick to thier jobs. Its just like how clare didn't know that voracious eaters were actually awakened biengs...or how the hunting party didn't know the truth about awakening or thier abilities until miria told them. Just because in general offensive types can't regrow limbs doesn't meant it can't happen....especially since clare is half-awakened already. We can't say for sure what she's capable of.

I like that clare is learning the flash sword technique now...its a good way to make her stronger without being a cliche. It makes it more realistic if she improves her skills rather then refusing to die or getting a powerboost cuz she has someone to protect/kill. I really hope in the future we see her learning more techniques like that.....it'll bring her closer to teresa in a way, since teresa could also do all the techniques of the top 4.

Btw, irene when she first shows up and pwnz ophelia....orgasmic!

[Ryllharu]

Teresa couldn't do the techniques of the top four who fought her, she could counter all of them. That's a big difference. She couldn't really see Irene's Flash Sword, probably couldn't really keep up with it, but she knew where she needed to put her sword to block.

You don't need a shoot a bullet to stop a bullet, you just put something in the way.

[complich8]

I disagree.

Even if you know where the sword's going to be, you still need to be able to actually get it there fast enough. That means she's not only got to percieve the sword, her movement has to be within the same speed range to actually stop it.

That's where Clare was weak, responding to Ophelia's sword. She could somewhat see it (enough to read approximately where it was going to hit), but couldn't react appropriately.

Teresa was not the pinnacle of those skills that 3-5 specialized in, but she was definitely of the same caliber in all of them. Without her insane yoki-reading, she could still keep up with the rest of them at their respective specialties.

[shinta|hikari]

Agreed with that. Teresa was top-level on all claymore skills, and ultimate in youki reading, which was why she was number 1. If all she could do was read youki then she would be like... number 47.

And Teresa wasnt only countering the Flash Sword technique, she was technically doing it too (awakening her arm), since in order to counter it, you have to actually do it since the speeds simply cannot match.

[Idealistic]

What? Where did it say Priscilla was the one that killed Ophelia's brother? I must have missed it..

[High Wind]

When Ophelia was talking about her brother she mentioned a "One-Horned Monster". (Eclipse | Claymore 13 @ 19:46)

I believe Aeon was just making a connection between that and all the one-horned Awakened that we know of, namely Priscilla. So as of now its still unconfirmed but it seems like a very likely possibility.

[Everon]

I wonder how many of the new "numbers" were influenced by Pricilla. Maybe her rampage through the country was the catalyst for this generation of claymores. That would be one hell of a trip!

On the better side of things, Claire's learning a new technique! Kinda of a shame that she isn't learning something on her own, but whatever. It still kinda bothers me...even if she does learn Irene's technique, won't she still have that problem of switching from defense to offense?

[Kraco]

She shouldn't. The point of Irene's technique was to concentrate the yoki increase in her hand. So, it shouldn't affect her ability to read yoki at all. Also, there's no inherent profit in prolonger battles in any case, so she should strive to learn to end them quickly and efficiently, lessening any need to switch back and forth.

[oyabun]

I think its a good thing to learn from a pro like Irene, Clare needs all the help she can get. She's not even a half-human half yoma. Learning the flash sword would tip the balance a little bit in favor of Clare. Combination of flash sword of irene and yoki power reading of Teresa is pretty cool. :D

[Board of Command]

I wonder if she'll ever get her arm back. Seeing a 1-armed Clare makes me *tear*

[Assassin]

Teresa couldn't do the techniques of the top four who fought her, she could counter all of them. That's a big difference. She couldn't really see Irene's Flash Sword, probably couldn't really keep up with it, but she knew where she needed to put her sword to block.


um, no?

In the episode where #2-5 ambush teresa in the hotel, we clearly see teresa doing the flash sword. She's sitting in the chair, irene is standing in the door and they're fighting as they talk. And, in the same ep i believe, irene mentions that teresa can do all the techniques. Shes explaining to one of the other girls why they call her 'teresa of the faint smile' and says something like "her flash sword isn't as fast as mine, and her brute strength isn't as good as yours....*blablabla*". Im 99.9% sure of it, but someone who's archived the eps can confirm.

[dragonrage]

You are correct, Assassin.

[Yukimura]

In ep 7 @ about13 minutes in we see Irene Flash Swording up a storm in the hotel room where Clare and Teresa are hanging out. Irene claims it'll all be over soon and then we see Teresa suddenly parry a from her strike. Irene looks shocked and then Teresa tells her that Flash sword is useless if it stops flashing. Irene starts again and you immediately see a slo-mo of Teresa parring another strike then they both start moving their hands around really fast. From this I gather that what is happening is Teresa is parrying every single Flash Sword strike as it comes in.

@ 17:04 Irene says to the agility girl "Your agility, Sophia's strength, and my sword swinging are superior to Teresa in thier respective aspects. Teresa is the best because of her unparalleled ability to sense Yoki."

I'd say Teresa was doing what you would call Flash Sword as well, all it is is moving your sword really fast so it can't be perceived by the enemy. She wasn't as good as Irene who was probably the master of it, but since she could predict Irene's attacks she didn't need to be as good as her at it to defend against hers.

[Ryllharu]

The lines you are referring to are Irene's. But you can take it both ways. Irene says that the four of them are superior to Teresa in their own respective fields. Teresa's only asset was her smile and unparalleled ability to sense Yoki.

Teresa could accomplish a facsimile of each of their respective skills, but only because she knew what was about to happen. She could keep up with the agility by moving before the strike, keep up with the strength by parrying appropriately, keep up with the Flash Sword by moving her arm in place before the strike began in order to intercept it.

Teresa couldn't do any of the things they did as well as they do. She merely moved in whatever manner she needed to before they even struck. It's the exact same thing Clare was doing when she dodged the tentacles. It makes it look like she can do whatever the others can, but she's just acting before they do.

That's why Teresa couldn't fight Priscilla effectively (at first). If Teresa could've done the Flash Sword, she would have chopped up Priscilla as easily as Irene took out Ophelia. If Teresa was stronger, she could have beaten her down, if Teresa was as fast, she wouldn't have had any trouble with her. Teresa eventually won their little one-on-one because Priscilla had no experience and wasn't trained (as narrated by Irene again).

I suppose you can take Irene's lines either way, but Teresa was using none of their skills, she was just keeping up.

[animus]

I have no idea what's the point of this arguement, and why you're so against Teresa's expertise when it's clear, if you rewatch it, that she's not a one trick pony.

There's only one skill in play here, and that's the Flash Sword, the other 2 respective fields are speed and strength which is a general attribute. Just because she can predict, doesn't mean that she can parry every single strike directed at her by Irene, but she did. This is evident by Clare and Ophelia's Rippling Sword. No, Priscilla isn't weak enough to be beat by the Flash Sword, which she became number 2 OVER Irene who is now number 3, for a good reason. Sure Priscilla lacked experience but, Priscilla is compared to Teresa, because they are similiar in many aspects, attributes, and non-use of Yoki (like Teresa). You're not giving Priscilla enough credit.

[shinta|hikari]

EDIT - animus beat me to it but ill leave it her anyway.

Um, the way you explained it does make sense in a way, but Im going to have to disagree. As everyone has already explained, keeping up as you say also requires you to be able to do the skill to a certain extent, not as good as the original, but still to a reasonable level. The reason why Teresa had such trouble with Priscilla is because her main skill is neutralized, and suddenly fighting someone whose moves cannot be predicted for the first time got her a bit off guard. But that was eventually compensated by skill and experience.

Even if we can say that parrying appropriately (which was not what she was doing since she was catching blows straight on her sword) and reading ahead allowed her to easily defeat 4 and 5, the flash sword cannot be negated by such means. It is quite obvious that the speed isnt something you can normally achieve, and to keep up with it, the same method has to be used. This is true in any martial art. Just because you can predict the move doesnt mean you can block it if your body cannot keep up.

Of course, as you said, Teresa cannot use the skills mentioned as well as the original members. This means that using them would be quite pointless against Priscilla, who is the current number two and is several levels stronger than numbers 3-5. Using a lower level of flash sword against someone whose youki you cannot be read (and should be able to easily beat the original flash sword) would be stupid.

[Assassin]

first of all, keep in mind, that priscilla went to her limit while teresa was using barely 10% of her yoki powers (her eyes changed color) and still priscilla couldn't defeat her. She only managed to kill her through a surprise decisive attack when teresa let her guard down. So teresa was faster and stronger then priscilla. irene even says that priscilla can't yet beat teresa, but would be able to in the future.

Second, you talk about how teresa wasn't actually using the flash sword technique, but just read the flow of yoki and moved accordingly? the whole idea behind the flash sword is that it moves really really fast. hence the name flash sword. Reading yoki isn't enough to doge it if you can't physically keep up with the speed. Since she effectively blocked every strike from irene, she must have been able to move her sword just as fast.

Now maybe she didn't have to awaken her arm, and could move that fast with just her own strength.....but the end result is still the same. A super fast movement that can't be seen, aka 'flash sword'.

[complich8]

... rewatching episode 8, a few observations:
Teresa definitely outclassed over-the-limit Priscilla, and likely even fully-awakened Priscilla. The only reason Priscilla won was the surprise attack.
Fully-awakened Priscilla seems to want an audience, with the way she basically talks to Clare, walks right by her talking about how she really really wants to go eat some human guts.
Fully-awakened Priscilla also seems almost sad that the others are going to be completely unable to do anything to her.
With the damage Irene takes, it's definitely understandable how she lives through it -- if she spent her yoki and consciousness healing her slashed-open neck and and didn't worry about her missing arm. Also pretty clear that the others definitely couldn't have.

[Idealistic]

They did say Teresa's abilities shine best when fighting a really strong opponent with high Yoki and shes weakest against an opponent who hides his/her Yoki.

My theory is no matter how strong Priscilla would have gotten, her Yoki is incredibly high making it a hell of a lot easier for Teresa to judge the attacks, but unfortunately she was tricked.

[Ryllharu]

The only thing I'm hellbent on is keeping the facts straight. Don't get me wrong, Teresa's definitely one of my far favorite characters, but a lot of you are making her out to be a god. She's not, and wasn't. They made it very clear that she was going to be surpassed at some point. They also made it clear it wouldn't happen then. They made it tragic that at this point she lost only because she became more human.

A large aspect of this show has been that though there are strong people, they all have weakness, all have limits. Don't turn Teresa into some godlike, unstoppable figure. She would have lost handily to a properly trained Priscilla, or probably anyone else who suppressed their aura well enough (in a similar manner to the Clare and Miria fight in the rain).

I'll be out of state for a week or so, so the final word is yours.

[shinta|hikari]

I understand your point. Some people DO think that Teresa is god. I personally dont, but she was the strongest claymore we have seen so far, and I think that is what most of the people are trying to say.

And I also believe that a properly trained Priscilla will defeat Teresa, well, if she wasnt so mentally unstable. This is quite obvious since Teresa herself recognized this fact.

But you are definitely wrong on some of your facts, saying that Teresa is only keeping up with the flash sword and is unable to use it herself (doesnt matter how she does it, what matters is that she does), that is my only concern. I also dont agree about your statement about anyone suppressing their youki being able to defeat Teresa. Priscilla was already suppressing her youki to the limit when they fought, and she was number two, and still got defeated. But that doesnt mean that Teresa cannot be defeated by future claymores, one of which may indeed surpass her in the way Priscilla could have.

[?igma]

And now the real question, is anyone actually still following what the debate was somewhere 5 pages ago ? Can you stop nitpicking and get back to actual facts, instead of trying to sound smart and intelligent ? All you're doing is sounding like politicians and nobody gets what théy say.

Follow the story, be happy.

Oh and btw, Priscilla is an awakened being..and Clare's objective. Now we know that Clare =\= Teresa , nor close, so stop talking about "what could happen if ..yadayada". It doesnt matter. Clare can't beat Priscilla now, Priscilla's power is unknown as of now. We have no facts about other awakened beings to compare it with, so whý are you discussing it to begin with ???

[Inazuma]

The strongest claymore, was former n°1 male claymore that's settled.

Now, Teressa was strong, but something bothers me ... If all claymore can learn why everyone got only one special ability ?
See .. Clare learns flash sword ... but if this is possible why every claymore can't just learn this thing in their basic training ?

[animus]

If you'd rewatch the episode, you'd know. Irene said to learn it, you'd need an extremely strong will, and like general know-how of their Yoki limitations.

[Yukimura]

The strongest claymore, was former n°1 male claymore that's settled.


When exactly was this settled in the anime?

[Assassin]

and i imagine its the same for other techniques like the rippling sword, or super fine tuned yoki detection.....its not something you're run of the mill claymore can do

[Honoko]

a". It doesnt matter. Clare can't beat Priscilla now, Priscilla's power is unknown as of now. We have no facts about other awakened beings to compare it with, so whý are you discussing it to begin with ???
Because this is a thread on the Claymore anime. Where else would we be able to speculate and bounce ideas off each other?

[?igma]

Because this is a thread on the Claymore anime. Where else would we be able to speculate and bounce ideas off each other?

You're reading past the point. They were discussing what would happen if Priscilla would still be unawakened in current time. Which is completely irrelevant.

[shinta|hikari]

Haha, you missed the point of the argument entirely, its no wonder your complaining.

[Darknodin]

When exactly was this settled in the anime?

yea... its actually the first time i hear about a #1 male claymore...

[Elyne]

Just doing some rereading of the manga trying to find out if there's been mentioning of a male being the strongest I found this that might help clearify how Claymores are created.

http://yngve-g.net/Gallery/Claymore%20v01%20052.jpg
http://yngve-g.net/Gallery/Claymore%20v01%20053.jpg

[?igma]

Haha, you missed the point of the argument entirely, its no wonder your complaining.

Yes..that was exactly my point *slaps forehead* and since I'm not exactly stupid and absolutely not quickly confused by shiney words...stop being confusing.

[shinta|hikari]

Uh, now Im the one confused. If your not confused by shiny words as you call them, how am I confusing?

And just because you are confused or dont like the way we talk doesnt give you the right to stop us. There are actually people who understand it too.

And the point of the last post was that you are not exactly smart either, but since you say otherwise Ill take your word for it.

But since this is the claymore thread all this talk stops here. Reply if you must but this will be my last post on this topic.

BTW, its interesting to know some details about the creation of claymores, but the actual process still remains a mystery I guess.

About the number 1 male claymore, I think the person that wrote about that was assuming so based on the previously discussed issue of male claymores being generally stronger than female ones. Im not sure if this is true though, since all I remember being said was that they turned to youmas almost immediately.

[Inazuma]

About the number 1 male claymore, I think the person that wrote about that was assuming so based on the previously discussed issue of male claymores being generally stronger than female ones. Im not sure if this is true though, since all I remember being said was that they turned to youmas almost immediately.

Yeah it's still speculations, but since male are stronger ... but unstable. It makes (to me) no doubt that Male n°1 will rule over women n°1.

[shinta|hikari]

Thats a tad sexist, but biologically speaking I agree with you. I think the reasoning they based the immediate youma transformation of males on is the aggressive nature (due to hormones mainly) of males in general. It could also be asserting that males generally dont or have little self-control, but I prefer the other one.

If they follow this line of thought when it comes to overall physical power as well, then your assumptions have a good chance of being accurate.

[Inazuma]

In general animes lacks something that would be cool, a real hero-like entrance like.

The crazy bitch awakened, now she'll be going after Raki or Clare, there is no way they can match her firepower. Now a real hero-like entrance would be;a character not introduced yet in the series, interjecting between the bad guy and the main/side character, beating the crap out of the bad guy with one move without any effort. (If anyone knows an anime where such scenario takes place ...)

Now, everyone expects Raki to become a claymore, but now I would like the story to be innovative and surprise us with some shit that even a Deadfire on crack wouldn't have expected.

[complich8]

I think that would be a letdown, quite honestly.

Whether Raki becomes a claymore or not doesn't matter much. But bringing in a new, even stronger character is what literary critics would call "Deus ex Machina". Basically, "oh, here's this insane tangled problem, and ... whoops, one of the gods descended and fixed it! Case closed, we're done, thanks for playing."

The reason we don't see that sort of thing is that it's extremely unsatisfying. It's just a bad way to deal with a storyline.

[Y]

Raki becoming a Claymore would be extremely weak from a storytelling perspective, I think. Pretty much every principle character in the story is an inhuman badass killing machine except him, and the fact that he is just joe average who's stuck in the world of demons and blonde Terminators is what affords his existence any relevance to the plot (that and he's a guy in a story full of girls, but I don't think THAT will be played upon much).

[Yukimura]

In general animes lacks something that would be cool, a real hero-like entrance like.

The crazy bitch awakened, now she'll be going after Raki or Clare, there is no way they can match her firepower. Now a real hero-like entrance would be;a character not introduced yet in the series, interjecting between the bad guy and the main/side character, beating the crap out of the bad guy with one move without any effort. (If anyone knows an anime where such scenario takes place ...)


I would call Irene's random appearance to save Clare a hero-like entrance as situation you described, though she has been introduced so it's not exactly the same. If Irene has been hiding out all these years what the hell was she doing wandering the forest right where Clare was with her sword (I'm assuming she had her claymore but she could probably have done what she did to Ophelia with just a pocket knife).

[complich8]

Raki becoming a Claymore would be extremely weak from a storytelling perspective, I think. Pretty much every principle character in the story is an inhuman badass killing machine except him, and the fact that he is just joe average who's stuck in the world of demons and blonde Terminators is what affords his existence any relevance to the plot

(post 300, this thread) However, I think it's important that Raki stays human. If he's not fully human, then we can no longer identify with any character in the story, and the series degenerates to a fairly hard-to-feel "monster versus monster" scenario.
I find the similarity in our lines of thought slightly unsettling. Just slightly, though.


I would call Irene's random appearance to save Clare a hero-like entrance as situation you described, though she has been introduced so it's not exactly the same. If Irene has been hiding out all these years what the hell was she doing wandering the forest right where Clare was with her sword
Agreed that her showing up was pretty much deus ex machina. However, just because she's hidden her yoki doesn't mean she's unable to sense it. My guess is she picked up on traces of the battle (possibly because of the awakened and whatnot) from a couple miles off and decided to go take a closer look. It's weak, but it's not as weak as "she was just wandering through the woods and stumbled across them" at least.

But whatever. Irene's still being alive at all is sort of a contrived device to help Clare develop as a fighter. I think the scenario involving Ophelia ended up with a bunch of possible bad resolutions, and Irene showing up and saving the day was probably the least bad choice.

[masamuneehs]

Agreed that her showing up was pretty much deus ex machina. However, just because she's hidden her yoki doesn't mean she's unable to sense it. My guess is she picked up on traces of the battle (possibly because of the awakened and whatnot) from a couple miles off and decided to go take a closer look.
Irene sensed Teresa's Yoki, from Clare, and that is why she investigated the fight. "I came after sensing a nostalgic presence, but I know neither of the faces here." So she can obviously still sense Yoki very well. I don't think a large amount of Yoki is necessary for sensing it, since Clare is such a low number, yet her speciality is Yoki sensing. Also this example with Irene.

I also agree that it's super plot convenience for Irene to show up, but it's palatable. It further unites the past with the present storyline and now gives a valid reason for why some powerful Claymore, other than the Slashers, would help Clare.

wow, this thread is unbelievably huge. (400+ posts!)

[complich8]

yup, I totally forgot about her saying that ... but you're right. Helps justify things a bit...

[Idealistic]

Well... When the hero/heroine is faced against an impossible challenge, it becomes pretty obvious that someone will probably come in and save the hero. It's "who" saves the hero that makes it interesting in my opinion. I'd prefer to see the hero saved rather than him/her getting some super power-up and defeating the enemy.

I wasn't expecting it to be be Irene who saves Clare. I also thought it would be some person who hasn't been introduced yet. To me, the whole "I sensed a nostalgic presense" was a really nice touch and built a strong support as to why Irene would be there in the first place.


As for the hero-like entrances, what else could the writer have done though? Make Ophelia fall for Clare's trick? Give Clare a power-up? Maybe he shouldn't have gone this route at all?

If Ophelia fell for Clare's trick, I'm sure Ophelia would just pick up her sense again later and then we get a repeat of events again. If Clare got a power up it would just be dull and boring.

I personally like the way everything went.

[Kraco]

Yeah it's still speculations, but since male are stronger ... but unstable. It makes (to me) no doubt that Male n°1 will rule over women n°1.

I wouldn't count on that. If all the males awakened very soon, it would mean they would have no special techniques, only lots of raw power. That counts for much, but as we saw with the male Awakened, with suitable techniques you can render strong raw power meaningless. So, a strong male Claymore would be only a hypothetical and unlikely one.


The crazy bitch awakened, now she'll be going after Raki or Clare, there is no way they can match her firepower.

Ophelia has been an Awakened being for a very short time now. All she has ever done has been fighting with her claymore as a Claymore. If she now immediately goes after Clare and Irene, she wouldn't actually be a strong Awakened but one that doesn't yet know what she's doing. She hasn't had time to explore has new status and possible powers. So, she's not so dangerous yet. Not as dangerous as she could be after a while, anyway.

[Munsu]

I don't know about that. So in a fight between two Claymores, you would give the disadvantage to the Claymore who Awakens during the fight, since the Claymore hasn't adjusted yet? Given, she won't be as powerful as an experienced Awakened being, but she has to be stronger than when she wasn't Awakened.

[complich8]

I don't think it's really feasible for a claymore to really fully awaken in the course of a battle. At least, not a reasonably well-trained one.

We've seen 3 awakenings. Ophelia's was unusual both in that she didn't realize she was awakening, and in that she didn't awaken due to going over the line during a fight -- she just sort of mentally destabilized.

Clare and Priscilla both crossed the threshold by accident, though. Clare briefly to deliver a decisive blow, and Priscilla gradually trying to win against Teresa. In both cases, their inhibitions kicked in after they crossed the line, causing them to at least momentarily become less effective in combat. After all, nobody wants to turn into the thing they most hate.

Something like this:
http://forums.gotwoot.net/gallery/files/3/1/2/yokigraph.png

In this case, the claymore that awakens during combat against an opponent without the mercy that doomed Teresa would definitely not have a good time, because they'd experience that power drop before the transformation and loss of inhibitions. Not to mention they're clearly already at a disadvantage if they're pushed to the point that awakening happens.

On the other hand, the Slashers have already crossed that line and come back. They're awakened, and have little need of those inhibitions, as far as we can tell. That means they can follow the blue line instead of the red one, and things will go a little better.

[Kraco]

Well, not necessarily. It of course also depends on the opponent. If you are fighting against another Claymore who suddenly turns into a monster, you are basically facing a totally new opponent. That's a hindrance for sure. However, I don't really think it's wise to think by default that Awakened beings are somehow always superior compared to Claymores. Claymores are terminator like cool and composed killing machines (or they should be), whereas Awakened beings are more instinct driven demons, with varying degrees of their human wits remaining. Two quite different creatures, both of which have some obvious strengths yet also obvious weaknesses.

If the Awakened beings were always so superior, we wouldn't have ever seen or heard of them being defeated by Claymores. And this time is no different, all the way down to the numbers: We have two Claymores against one Ophelia The Awakened: Clare and Irene.

[shinta|hikari]

I dont think awakened beings fight using techniques, nor do they need to. If you remember the Priscilla awakening, she practically destroyed everyone without having any time to adjust to her new body. She could use it quite efficiently as soon as she went over the limit (like the extending finger attack and the flying at the end), so knowing what the body can do is probably attributed more to instinct rather than actually trying it out for a test drive.

EDIT - I also realized that becoming an awakened being doesnt only give the former claymore a bloodthirst and hunger for flesh, but also, to put it simply, evil. I remember Priscilla wanting to fight Teresa one on one because she feels it is unfair to attack her with the whole team, but later on kills Teresa by tricking her in the most disgusting (be it simple) way possbile. So, does this mean that all awakened beings are devious bastards despite who they were before?

[Kraco]

Hmm... That could be true, yes. Well, that does change two things: Awakened beings are more dangerous in the beginning but due to an inability to develop, they remain as they are and grant better chances for the Claymores facing them as time goes by.

Still, it would certainly mean, then, that Clare and Irene would face harder times when Ophelia finds them. However, if they survive the initial clash there's little to worry about later. In fact, now that I think of it, you're stance is more likely. The male Awakened pretty much owned in the beginning of the fight against the Claymores, but it couldn't adapt at all nearing the end when Clare and Miria got their act together.

Ah, well, I have to give in that much. Although it only reinforces my other point: That Awakened beings are beasts; once you get to know how they think (or just act according to their instincts) you are already halfway to the victory.

[masamuneehs]

sorry, comp, I just don't see it... I'm sure it's feasible that there's a time when a freshly Awakanened is in despair and loses her cool, making her less effective, but that doesn't NEED to be. Priscilla suddenly started crying, as did Ophelia, but that was a very good battle strategy for one, while the other wasn't fighting (though it wouldn't have worked on Clare).

The potential flaw in your graph is that you accredit Awakening to an increase in Yoki that actually doesn't increase combat effectiveness, despite a linear relationship between Yoki level and effectiveness up to that point. The flash of light, notable physical distortion and shock of onlookers has pointed to the idea that Awakening increases your Yoki by a sudden and great amount. The result would be a 'range' of 'combat effectiveness' that a freshly Awakened Being would fall into depending on how well she could utilize this power straight from the start.

There's also the idea that a lack of morals / attainment of evil can empower the fighter, even if they aren't adjusted to using all of their newly gained powers.

Again, it all depends on how Yoki is effectively utilized to achieve this so called 'combat effectivness'. Clare, who has a terrible rank in the organization and a very small Yoki, manages to utilize it very well, effectively trumping opponents with much higher Yoki. Not all Claymore have the same linear combat effectivness to Yoki relationship.

And, the idea of measuring all Claymore by a chart also fails to account for the effectiveness of Yoki reading, which Clare and others excel at. In such a case, an opponent's effectiveness might go DOWN against a Yoki reader because their Yoki is going up and making their attacks more visible. It also leaves out situational elements like a pre-existing relationship with the opponent (Teresa and Priscilla), terrain, fatigue, knowledge of the others' abilities and many more things that you'd have to keep in mind to determine 'combat effectiveness' which can really only be evaluated on a case-by-base, opponent-by-opponent basis.

[Elyne]

BTW, its interesting to know some details about the creation of claymores, but the actual process still remains a mystery I guess.


I'd say that the process is sort of fusion, the blood get fused(not sure that's even a word)in the same way that you clean your blood in the hospital, except instead of getting your own purified blood back you get yoma blood.
And like mentioned before, maybe they somehow transplant some yoma organs or so in the stomach (seeing the bandits reaction to teresa) but then again, a blow to the stomach region should destroy that part of the yoma power. I know I'm ripping up old discussions so sorry.

[complich8]

sorry, comp, I just don't see it... I'm sure it's feasible that there's a time when a freshly Awakanened is in despair and loses her cool, making her less effective, but that doesn't NEED to be. Priscilla suddenly started crying, as did Ophelia, but that was a very good battle strategy for one, while the other wasn't fighting (though it wouldn't have worked on Clare).

It was an effective strategy for Priscilla against a merciful opponent. Not so much against a merciless one. Remembering that most claymores are, in fact, pretty much merciless, I don't see this as being a sound strategy in general.


The potential flaw in your graph is that you accredit Awakening to an increase in Yoki that actually doesn't increase combat effectiveness

No, there's a gap between the "point of no return" and actual transformation, during which inhibitions and humanity erode. If a claymore were to embrace that she was going to awaken and power through it uninhibited, then this dropoff wouldn't happen.

The power drop I'm suggesting is a function not of actual yoki emitted, nor of actual strength, but of psychology and training. Once the claymore has fully awakened, there's no more inhibitions or training getting in the way, and she'll be able to fully utilize her powers.


And, the idea of measuring all Claymore by a chart also fails to account for the effectiveness of Yoki reading, which Clare and others excel at.
IT'S OVER 9000!
But seriously, yes, I agree. There's no good way to numerically compare combat abilities. That's what's interesting about shounen action as a genre: weaker opponents can muster unexpected strength or skill and defeat stronger opponents.

Clare's ability to read yoki is comparable to Jujitsu -- the more power (as yoki) you send at her, the more effective she is at turning that power aside or against you, up to the point that she can't keep up with your movements, at least. But in a competition of brute strength -- in Teresa versus Priscilla, or Irene versus Ophelia, or Clare versus any ordinary yoma she's faced before, more yoki released = more effective.

In other words, this is a graph not of how good a given claymore is in comparison to other claymores, but how good she is in comparison to herself. I think that's still within the realm of the meaningful.

[Munsu]

14 with some one-armed fetish:
http://torrents.no-sekai.de/eclipse/%5bEclipse%5d%20Claymore%20-%2014%20(h264)%20%5bE791A8FE%5d.mkv.torrent

[Shadow Skill]

Thanks Munsu! :)

[Kraco]

Well, it didn't end up being Clare's optimal technique. Perhaps she will find another, more suitable one at some point. Even though Irene isn't going to need her hand back anymore.

But nevertheless, even without being optimal, it's still easily at a level that will grant her better chances against any opponent.

[oyabun]

I don't think the Clare would be able to create her own technique, being weak and all. I guess its best for Clare to further improve the skills she has now (flash sword and yoki reading) to make it more effective, its a better lead than starting at zero with a new technique.

[Kraco]

That might be so. But it would also be a weakness to have only one good technique. If the opponent happens to know how to deal with that attack, then she would be at that zero point no matter what, because according to Irene she won't ever be extremely good at the Flash sword, thus creating a vulnerability.

[shinta|hikari]

I didnt really like that episode. It made so many things seem strange. Ive already noted earlier that transforming into an awakened being will automatically make you evil (as seen in Priscilla's case). In the case of Ophelia, this does not seem to be the so. It actually seemed like most of her personality remained (considering how twisted she originally was), and was even a better person than when she was a claymore.

I also didnt like how Ophelia noted that Clare's strength and speed have both increased even when she wasnt using the flash sword. It just seemed like too traditional a path to increase all parameters and level up after a training session.

The use of flash sword in that battle was idiotic. She used it as a grinder? What the hell happened to the brains in this show. Clare didnt seem as stupid before. I know its because of Clare continuing Ophelia's will and all that bullshit considering they have the same enemy, but I would have hoped that she has learned from Teresa's example not to be fooled by youma-talk (since she hasnt fallen for it since the beginning of the series, and now this?) Ive never really seen a hero cheered on by her opponent before, and it didnt really look right at all.

But the thing Im most pissed about is how Raki didnt appear in her head when she was remembering the things/people she would leave behind if she died, the poor guy.

[Inazuma]

Next episode.
Clare : The Composite Claymore I

Seriously, they gonna just mix every best claymore inside Clare to turn her into a super claymore ?

[oyabun]

The grinder thing as you said was really idiotic.. Clare could already killed Ophelia at the early part of the battle. The time where she cut off both arms and went for the body, Why did she not cut Ophelia's head off? instead just slashing her body. Clearly Ophelia was suprise and caught off guard.. Clare could have finish her sooner..:D Kinda sad that Raki's face did not show up..

[Psyke]

Clare used the flash sword as a "grinder", because she wanted to beat Ophelia by her rules. Clare respected Ophelia (as another warrior) and she also understands that Ophelia didn't choose to be an awakened being, like any other Claymore. And the fact that Ophelia spoke to Clare in her "human" form means that Clare wouldn't do anything despicable like aiming directly at her tail. I don't really see it as sympathy, but just Clare giving Oheplia the respect she deserves, as a Claymore.

[Munsu]

Wow, you guys are really dismissing everything that has happened in the series to Clare till now. You guys are missing the point that by having Raki by her side in her journey, she has become more "human" and that's what has ultimately prevented her from fully awekening. Of course, that in itself has some counter-effects. She becomes more sympathetic towards other characters for starters.

Second, she wasn't remembering poeple she would leave behind if she died... she was thinking if she was fit to take revenge for Teresa and carry her flesh and blood, as it was pointed out earlier by Irene. She was also thinking about she being the one that survived Teresa. You can also see it parallel to Raki, in that she didn't want to put him in the same position she was in her flashback, so I don't see the problem of them not showing Raki.

Third, since the start of the series there has been an underlying theme that Claymores want to die as humans, and other Claymores are sympathetic to letting them have that dying wish, so not only was Clare probably thinking of taking on Ophellias will, but also giving her the chance to die human, by completely destroying the yoma portion. She probably read between the lines and thought that Ophellia had already surrendered, so didn't really think about the dangers of doing what she did.

And becoming Awakened automatically not making you evil is a bad thing? Please, character and story complexity is never a bad thing. You seem to want a simple hack and slash series with no dilemmas and one dimensional characters.

[shinta|hikari]

I never said not becoming evil when you become an awakened is a bad thing. It just seemed strange since it was not consistent with the case of Priscilla.

Irene's face popped up at that time too. It isnt so unreasonable to think of the person that actually prevented you from becoming an awakened being (actually turning her into a half-awakened and consequently more powerful) at one time. And I think Ophelia was saying that Clare should think about the ones she will leave behind, and that is what caused the flashback (EDIT - the second one, after which she cut the tentacles and proceeded grinding).

Uh, awakened beings arent supposed to die as humans, since they arent human nor even claymores anymore. I am not dismissing anything that has happened before. I think you are missing the point of the earlier posts. Youmas and awakened beings are known to be treacherous, and Clare should know this most of all. It doesnt matter if claymores want to die as humans or if Clare has become more human and symphatetic to others. Its just common sense to eliminate the enemy as efficiently as possible, especially since it is an awakened being, or risk the chance of dying like Teresa.

Im not saying Clare should be less symphatetic or colder, but as the situation was, there really was no room nor reason for such things, also in consideration of her past experiences.

It is precisely the turn of events that made this episode a hack and slash one for me. As oyabin earlier stated, with the flash sword, she could have sliced Ophelia's head off instead of scratching her body parts like she did. Why? No real reason, except because there needs to be more action inserted (yes, typical of hack and slash shows).

Dilemmas are good if they are properly delivered. There was simply no indication that awakened beings can actually hold a human-like consciousness. If there was, everyone would have complained at my claim that turning youma automatically turns you evil. Im not saying the idea itself is bad. Im saying the way it was presented was too sudden, making it feel fake.

Read between the lines? Are you kidding? The succeeding the will thus fighting on a set rule theory makes sense, though cheap sense since claymore isnt really a kiddy shounen morals show. That scenario of Clare thinking Ophelia has given up is absolutely stupid, and if she did think that, she deserves to die. Even Ophelia notes how stupids she is, and stabs her for it. If Ophelia hadnt cheered Clare on, she would be dead (which I still find to be strange and too sudden).

[Kraco]

When watching that scene, I got the feeling Ophelia suggested that if Clare can't proceed through her whole body, she isn't strong enough to ever face Priscilla. And Clare did that just to prove it to herself, not Ophelia. When she got tired in the middle, Ophelia stabbed her partly to show she was right: Clare doesn't have the power, and partly to encourage her forward. Though I'm not entirely sure if Ophelia wanted Clare to exceed her limits as well, sharing the fate of turning into a yoma, or really succeed and release Ophelia from that ill fate.

[Munsu]

I never said not becoming evil when you become an awakened is a bad thing. It just seemed strange since it was not consistent with the case of Priscilla
Yeah, but this was the first thing you posted when you said you didn't like the episode, so it can be easilly understood that you think it's a bad turn on events. You also need to understand that no one in this show has been shown to detest Awakened beings more than Ophellia, and you need to take that into consideration after she was shocked after seeing her reflection. So it's not really strange.


Irene's face popped up at that time too. It isnt so unreasonable to think of the person that actually prevented you from becoming an awakened being (actually turning her into a half-awakened and consequently more powerful) at one time. And I think Ophelia was saying that Clare should think about the ones she will leave behind, and that is what caused the flashback (EDIT - the second one, after which she cut the tentacles and proceeded grinding).

I was editing my post while you posted, so you probably missed it. But she was thinking more of how she was the one that survived Teresa, and if she's worthy of carrying her blood and flesh... again, that's the whole point of this episode, she making good by Teresa as Irene had pointed out earlier on the importance of she having Teresa's flesh in her etc.

Now, if we saw more flashbacks, even ones showing Raki I can already see you guys posting "Damnit, what a horrible episode, it was all flashbacks". Simply draw a parallel with the situation she was in when she was little and with Raki currently, that should be enough.


Uh, awakened beings arent supposed to die as humans, since they arent human nor even claymores anymore. I am not dismissing anything that has happened before. I think you are missing the point of the earlier posts. Youmas and awakened beings are known to be treacherous, and Clare should know this most of all. It doesnt matter if claymores want to die as humans or if Clare has become more human and symphatetic to others. Its just common sense to eliminate the enemy as efficiently as possible, especially since it is an awakened being, or risk the chance of dying like Teresa.


Dilemmas are good if they are properly delivered. There was simply no indication that awakened beings can actually hold a human-like consciousness. If there was, everyone would have complained at my claim that turning youma automatically turns you evil. Im not saying the idea itself is bad. Im saying the way it was presented was too sudden, making it feel fake.

Sorry, but as it has been portrayed many times before, these Claymores are very frail girls with tragic pasts. They have real sense of comradery, especially preventing other Claymores from dying as Yomas. Hence the importance of the second episode. All we know about Awakened beings has to be taken as grains of salt, none can be taken as absolute truths because the information we have gathered are from unreliable sources or sources that really don't know much. So if Clare saw that Ophellia still had some humanity in her, there's no reason for her not to try and save it.

I just think you dislike the anime throwing out all your previous theories. It surprised you, and it pisses you off.



Read between the lines? Are you kidding? The succeeding the will thus fighting on a set rule theory makes sense, though cheap sense since claymore isnt really a kiddy shounen morals show. That scenario of Clare thinking Ophelia has given up is absolutely stupid, and if she did think that, she deserves to die. Even Ophelia notes how stupids she is, and stabs her for it. If Ophelia hadnt cheered Clare on, she would be dead (which I still find to be strange and too sudden).

You answered it yourself. Yes it was stupid, and the series itself aknowledges it. Clare has been shown to be very irrational in the past, so there's no real surprise here.

This episode was really good, and opened many new doors but you guys only notice the "bad" things from the episode. Heck, we saw a new character called Rafaela who was ranked 5, and Irene said that she probably couldn't beat her even with both her arms. So what's the deal with her?

[Shadow Skill]

Ophelia's boobies are $$ :)

[shinta|hikari]

You assumed I was saying it was a bad thing, I didnt.

Flashbacks dont need to be long, just enough to show he is part of it, like a 1 second flash of his face? (this is no big deal really, I commented on this because I pitied Raki, not really because it was a bad thing in terms of story, but saying a 1-3 second showing of Raki's face will invite criticism for excessive flashbacks? LOL)

There are tons of reasons (Umm, like how Teresa, the most important person to her, died?) to not try and save it (Ophelia's humanity), and that was my point. But then again, as you said, Clare isnt really rational, and thus my complaints.

Whether Im surprised or not, or whether my predictions are correct or not do not matter. What I was emphasizing if you read between the lines is that the delivery was lacking, not the actual plot direction itself. It was too sudden, not surprising, and there is a big difference.

What I meant in the last part is that Clare couldnt have thought that Ophelia was giving up, but rather thought of it as a challenge that she needs to overcome to succeed her will. The first possibility which you proposed is preposterous, since Clare isnt that much of a fool (or any other character for that matter).

Actually, what Ophelia did was a very good strategy since Clare cannot use flash sword for a long time, its just that she had failed to complete it by killing Clare off.

EDIT - Still, I was amazed at how you said I was pissed off at surprises (wow how did you conclude that), since that is the farthest from the truth. Im not sure if its an attempt at taunting me, but really... LOL.

I realize now that all I was hoping for was for Clare to be a smart character, for I actually thought that she was from the previous episodes (with all the planning etc.), but it seems some prefer to think of her as stupid, and if that is so, this episode isnt so bad.

[Idealistic]

I was sort of hoping Clare would get Irene's arm in a different way, but that is good enough I guess.

As for why Rafaela is only #5? I'm going to guess it's probably because she has only 1 eye. I wonder if she will kill Irene though.

As for cutting Ophelia up, how come she just didn't slice it off piece by piece? lol... It seems to use up so much more strength doing the flash sword repeatedly...

Anyways, this series is getting better and better.

[Yukimura]

When has Clare ever done things the easy way? She's always shown some level of compassion and humanity when dealing with non Yoma (humans and Claymores).

Ophelia seemed genuinely shocked that she had awakened and everything that came out of her mouth hinted that she was fighting the urges imposed on her by awakening ("I want to east something soft and warm, like guts" and "They don't have to be human guts, but the closer the better") stuff like that made it understandable that she retained some of her senses, unlike the only other pre and post awakened person we've seen who was completely consumed by her Yoma side when she awakened.

My speculation based on these two different circumstances is that your state of mind as you awaken has some factor in how much of your human will stays with you across the change. Priscilla awakened while angry, frustrated, and in a fight she thought meant everything to her. Once she'd crossed over she maintained human cunning but became 'evil' in that she just wanted to win the fight and was willing to sink as far into her Yoma nature as she could in order to gain the power to do it. Ophelia awakened while angry, frustrated, injured and thinking about how she missed her brother who had saved her. Once she crossed over her thoughts weren't on something negative like killing an enemy they were on her brother and that may have lead to her humanity being able to resist the urge to sink further into her Yoma nature.

I'd agree that Clare didn't just kill her outright because she felt bad for her and wanted to give her some shred of human dignity in death. While it may be stupid of the warrior scale it was the more human thing to do, and one of the things they've stressed more than anything in this show is that Claymores being more human in the head is a good thing.

[Munsu]

EDIT - Still, I was amazed at how you said I was pissed off at surprises (wow how did you conclude that), since that is the farthest from the truth. Im not sure if its an attempt at taunting me, but really... LOL.

I realize now that all I was hoping for was for Clare to be a smart character, for I actually thought that she was from the previous episodes (with all the planning etc.), but it seems some prefer to think of her as stupid, and if that is so, this episode isnt so bad.



But the thing Im most pissed about is how Raki didnt appear in her head when she was remembering the things/people she would leave behind if she died, the poor guy.

Something was surely pissing you besides the quoted. I'm not taunting you, I just find your quirks about the episode unwarranted. I see them too minor to conclude that it wasn't a good episode (since you didn't like it). The episode had a lot more to offer, but as I mentioned people tend to focus on the negative portions (even though I disagree they are) of the episode instead on the positives that hugely overwhelm the former. Like the introduction of Rafela, ranked number 5 and Irene questions why she is ranked that low when she's that strong, that she probably would still lose if she had her two arms. But whatever, to each his own.


Flashbacks dont need to be long, just enough to show he is part of it, like a 1 second flash of his face? (this is no big deal really, I commented on this because I pitied Raki, not really because it was a bad thing in terms of story, but saying a 1-3 second showing of Raki's face will invite criticism for excessive flashbacks? LOL)

Yeah, but still using Raki in that moment would overshadow the importance of her actually being the one that survived Teresa. It was something that Clare and Irene talked plenty during the episode, so there had to be a direct link to what they talked about and what was suddenly said to Clare during the fight.



What I meant in the last part is that Clare couldnt have thought that Ophelia was giving up, but rather thought of it as a challenge that she needs to overcome to succeed her will. The first possibility which you proposed is preposterous, since Clare isnt that much of a fool (or any other character for that matter).

I was just throwing a possibility, not that it's actually her train of thought. But Ophelia certainly didn't like being Awakened and we know it because of her reaction when she saw her reflection, because we know how she hates them, and how she didn't really fight at full strength after that, so Clare should've picked up on Ophelia not putting up a real fight. And if you aknowledge that Clare is irrational and "stupid" then you can't deny this as a possibility.

[complich8]

I definitely like Ophelia's rejection of her own Awakened state. And how she didn't put it together until she saw herself while fighting Clare. She really didn't grasp her situation at all.

I also liked how Clare got a new arm. It's much less cheap than giving her something like a Picollo-style limb regeneration. Her difficulty with flash sword and her trouble controlling Irene's arm were both nice tools to re-ground her post-half-awakened state, underscoring that just because she can awaken and come back doesn't mean it's suddenly easy for her to do. Good times, that.

I think that for as long as we've been following Clare, she hasn't really been engaged in any sort of real training or practice, so she hasn't gotten significantly better. Meeting Irene and spending a couple days practicing with her and learning her technique, albeit imperfectly, definitely should have yielded a power and speed increase.

I'd like to see Clare engage in a lot more practice and training on her own, exploring her own power and its limits. She knows what her strengths and weaknesses are, so even without someone's yoki to read, I'd think she could spend time improving her weak points ... like the switch between defensively pushing her power down and flipping it into high-powered attack mode.

[BananaFob]

For a minute there, I thought that Rafaela was either Noel or Sophia because Priscilla had stabbed their eyes, but then the hair was different.

On another note, was Clare using any of her Yoma powers when she was shredding Orphelia's body up? Clare looked like she never used any Yoma powers because she didn't have her yellow eyes, but then again, her veins were sticking out violently. One more thing, how did get power-up when she was stopped by Orphelia? After having such a momentarily flashback, it made her endure the pain and continue (which I really doubt is the real reason for her sudden boost in energy). Last question, back in episode 8, or the awakening of Priscilla, she threw Irene's arm back to her after she cut it off. Why didn't Irene repair her arm at that time?

Anyway, the next episode looks very interesting. Based on the preview, it seems set in a dark place, just like the Organization place shown during the last several seconds of the episode. Maybe this episode will show how Claymores are born, or that maybe the Organization actually breeds and make the Yoma.

[Munsu]

The best answer I can come up with is that Irene suffered a nasty near fatal wound, she seemed to lose consciousness, also she probably needed all her youma energy to heal it, and there wasn't any left to use for her arm. Probably, by the time she came to, she couldn't attach her limb any longer because too much time had passed. You can see Clare urging Irene to attach it for a reason, maybe you need to attach it within a time frame or it becomes impossible.

[Assassin]

ugh so much discussion....i'll read it all later. For now i'll just say that, to me it seems like the way a claymore awakens (that is, the conditions surrounding the awakening) have a lot to do with the end result. That seems to be why the 'all awakened beings are inherently evil' theory doesn't hold. Ophelia awakened out of sheer emotion...she felt guilt, she felt lonely, she felt like a little girl who'd just lost her brother. Priscilla on the other hand awakened out of rage and yoki overload. she was angry at not being able to defeat teresa, and cuz in her eyes teresa wasn't following the rules while she was....she pusehd her self to the limit while being angry at teresa so that could explain why she was more 'evil' then ophelia, even though pre-awakening ophelia was way more messed up.

[Board of Command]

Good to see Clare got an arm back. It's a little pale, but better than nothing.

[oyabun]

Clare said that when things are over that she will return the arm to Irene.. Does things really ends for claymores? Unless they become a yoma or be dead. And if you run from your mission the organization will hunt you down. I guess Clare won't actually have any opportunity to give back the arm even if Irene is alive/

[Munsu]

She probably meant on her journey to avenge Teresa, killing Priscilla.

[shinta|hikari]

Something was surely pissing you besides the quoted. I'm not taunting you, I just find your quirks about the episode unwarranted. I see them too minor to conclude that it wasn't a good episode (since you didn't like it). The episode had a lot more to offer, but as I mentioned people tend to focus on the negative portions (even though I disagree they are) of the episode instead on the positives that hugely overwhelm the former. Like the introduction of Rafela, ranked number 5 and Irene questions why she is ranked that low when she's that strong, that she probably would still lose if she had her two arms. But whatever, to each his own.

No, thats pretty much it. I just didnt like some parts of the episode (especially her use of flash sword), and I found it to be not as good as the other episodes. I even gave the exact reasons why I didnt like it, so I dont know what makes you say different. But, to each his own. Still, there are good parts, which are the ones I didnt have to point out.



Yeah, but still using Raki in that moment would overshadow the importance of her actually being the one that survived Teresa. It was something that Clare and Irene talked plenty during the episode, so there had to be a direct link to what they talked about and what was suddenly said to Clare during the fight.

This is too much of a rationalization, but like I said, I was simply pitying Raki, and thus its my personal preference. It didnt ruin the episode in technical terms at all.



I was just throwing a possibility, not that it's actually her train of thought. But Ophelia certainly didn't like being Awakened and we know it because of her reaction when she saw her reflection, because we know how she hates them, and how she didn't really fight at full strength after that, so Clare should've picked up on Ophelia not putting up a real fight. And if you aknowledge that Clare is irrational and "stupid" then you can't deny this as a possibility.

Yes we can, and we should deny this possibility. Clare should never become so stupid. I said she was stupid, but this is of a completely different level, since it assumes something that has really no basis at all.

Also, Ophelia's actions initially werent to allow Clare to win. It was more of a strategy to ensure her victory (Clare was winning at that point even if she was tired, and she might just get the idea to slash off Ophelia's head and not everywhere else). But Clare's determination (and stupidity) is what swayed her to let herself get killed in the end.

I have to admit though, that Ophelia's change may have its reasons. I just wish they foreshadowed it by a glimpse or hints that awakened beings arent pure evil. Or maybe Ophelia is the first to resist it to this extent, I guess that would make more sense. I hope they follow it up with something like that.


When has Clare ever done things the easy way? She's always shown some level of compassion and humanity when dealing with non Yoma (humans and Claymores).

Its not just about taking the easy way. She might as well have died when she chose to battle the way she did, and she practically won just because Ophelia allowed her to. Her winning that battle in that manner was plain illogical, but this is anime, so I cant really complain.



Last question, back in episode 8, or the awakening of Priscilla, she threw Irene's arm back to her after she cut it off. Why didn't Irene repair her arm at that time?

It may seem strange since Irene actually transplanted her arm to Clare, but Im pretty sure that was possible because the arm was recently removed from the body. Even if the wounds are still open (since one can reopen them apparently), if the arm itself is dead, I guess it wont work.

[DarthEnderX]

The thing about this show, is that it reminds me alot of Bleach. In that, aside from a few monsters at the beginning, the main character spends more time fighting their own people than anyone else.

[Idealistic]

The thing about this show, is that it reminds me alot of Bleach. In that, aside from a few monsters at the beginning, the main character spends more time fighting their own people than anyone else.

At least Clare didn't magically become one of the strongest through a shortcut training session and because she magically had higher potential than others.

Bleach is garbage compared to Claymore.

At least in my opinion.

[kenren]

Well, boobies.
anyway, Clare could had used her left arm since she's not used to the right arm yet..although it's not the dominant arm. Just my opinion though

[masamuneehs]

i actually felt sorry for Ophelia... and I hated the bitch for the previous episode...

You'd think Irene is dead, since even she admitted she'd have needed both her arms to beat Rafaela... but maybe the fact that they didn't show it leaves that very open possibility that Irene somehow escapes death again...

I'm glad Clare has an arm again (though, since she started training with her off-hand, maybe there's the chance she'll be duel wielding in the future?),even if the way she got it wasn't my preferred way.

i'm enjoying this series to an almost unhealthy extent.

[Idealistic]

i actually felt sorry for Ophelia... and I hated the bitch for the previous episode...

You'd think Irene is dead, since even she admitted she'd have needed both her arms to beat Rafaela... but maybe the fact that they didn't show it leaves that very open possibility that Irene somehow escapes death again...

I'm glad Clare has an arm again (though, since she started training with her off-hand, maybe there's the chance she'll be duel wielding in the future?),even if the way she got it wasn't my preferred way.

i'm enjoying this series to an almost unhealthy extent.

OMG... Just the thought of Clare dual wielding would be hot. Flash Sword in both arms! :eek:

lol

[shinta|hikari]

Did Clare grow stronger by simply attaching Irene's arm to her body? I mean, there should be a significant difference between the dominant and non-dominant arm, but not to the extent that you would still use your dominant one despite it being injured like Clare did in the last episode (especially since we know she can use her left arm for the flash sword). Is Irene's arm fundamentally stronger than Clare's, thus making Clare's present right arm stronger than before?

[masamuneehs]

from when Irene said: "Your strength and speed are less than a tenth of mine" and when offering her arm, "Here, this should help" and how Clare's Flash Sword was nothing compared to Irene's, I got the impression that the new arm is probably the strongest part of Clare's body now.

She got stronger from training with Irene also. Also, she is right-handed, I believe... so she naturally held her sword in it, even if it's a foreign body part that's hard to control.

[shinta|hikari]

That makes her like frankenstein. Im not sure if I like the idea of having strong body parts compared to the body.

[complich8]

You could almost see the series going down a "parts-collector" path. Clare as the anime version of Syler?

That'd be trippy :p

[Buffalobiian]

Yeah, I can see the potential in that too (parts collecting)

But I don't think it'll happen, simply because Claymore has pulled it off so far without falling into the traps so many shounen action anime do. Irene and Teresa were also people (yes, I'm calling claymores people!!) from Clare's past, and have, in a sense, contributed to Clare's upbringing, so it makes sense to me that it's now Clare, successor of Teresa's flesh and blood, bearer of Irene's right arm. I don't think it's gonna get any longer.

This episode turns it all around for Ophelia. Changes my impression of her from "you F@#king bloodthirsty bitch" to "*sigh*, if only you weren't........." Kinda sad.

[Kraco]

Even if it's a foreign body part that's hard to control:

Episode 15 h264 - Eclipse (http://torrents.no-sekai.de/eclipse/%5bEclipse%5d%20Claymore%20-%2015%20(h264)%20%5b5265EC99%5d.mkv.torrent)
Episode 15 xvid - Eclipse (http://torrents.no-sekai.de/eclipse/%5bEclipse%5d%20Claymore%20-%2015%20(XviD)%20%5bD17FBE7A%5d.avi.torrent)

[oyabun]

wow 3 months time skip.. wierd though that it took the organization 3 months to notice Clare's situation. And the awakened beings are forming an army.. things are much more interesting

[Yukimura]

Poor foolish little Raki, he should have stayed in the first town the came to going in the direction that he did, that would have made it easier for Clare to find him. I say he deserves to be left in the desert to die.

The little girl is awesome, so sweet sounding but so icy with her actual words.

[Kraco]

Desert to die? I deem he's purposefully subjecting himself to some Conanesque what doesn't kill you makes you stonger training. Three months might be quite a significant time for a Claymore like Clare but what can a human kid really learn in that time under normal circumstances? I don't think that much. Who knows, as much as he wants to be reunited with Clare, he might also hope he will be a different man when that happens and thus could subconsciously make decisions that won't make it easier for Clare to find him.

[complich8]

I was rather surprised that he stupidly didn't wait out the sandstorm. When crossing a desert on foot, a stiff breeze and some eddie currents are the difference between staying on track and getting to your destination and wandering in circles wasting energy and water.

I think that our half-demon-loving shounen is maybe a little lacking in the common sense department :p.

[Idealistic]

Trying to disguise herself as a boy or not, Clare with that pony-tail was hot. :p

Damn it Clare! Your comrades are in danger, stop walking! lol

Very interesting episode. I wonder what that awakened being and the little girl are trying to do. Well they could just be doing it for fun. As for the organization, it seems to be led by all men. I wonder what kind of powers they have.

[masamuneehs]

Anybody else feel this episode has some really odd segments where the music just didn't fit what was going on on-screen?

I liked that we saw a glimpse of The Organization. Looks like Artriea is getting assigned to tracking down Clare... I doubt they'll be very happy that she's been ducking them for the past three months... I assume she did it so she could find Raki, rather than be assigned all over the place at random. I really liked how Clare's 'handler' was just smiling and acting all smug throughout the meeting.

Seriously, he should have just stayed in the closest town is right! And then walking about in a storm... comp said it well.

hmm, is that creepy little girl Nana Mizuki? (Hinata in Naruto, Wrath in FMA... seems I've heard here somewhere else too...) It was bothering me throughout the episode, cuz I felt I should knew that voice... She's listed on ANN under a name, and so I can't tell if she's this character or not. Some kind of Awakened Being that retains her human shape? I'm very interested to see how she came all about and why she has an army of Yoma under her



Damn it Clare! Your comrades are in danger, stop walking! lol


Seriously! She's like "I better go help, but not in any hurry..." It must take forever to get things done in the Claymore world, what with them walking everywhere (no carriages seen yet)

[Xrlderek]

I liked Clare's outfit in this episode. The time skip fit in nicely. Also, I really like that girl, I love cold blooded monsters/villains appearing like children. She seems to be slightly smart too, possibly having some sort of goal besides just eating guts and all. I hope we will get to see more from the organizations point of view in future episodes.

Anybody else feel this episode has some really odd segments where the music just didn't fit what was going on on-screen?
Yeah, that actionlike music when she was just walking around in town felt a bit out of place.

[Ryllharu]

I see more than just me fell instantly in love with the creepy little loli. Her intelligent tone and obvious youth are very strange for an Awakened. It seems strange that Awakeneds would seek out and band with youma, after all, they still were Claymores at one time. Perhaps they gain a little camaraderie for each other while feasting on guts. Crack open a warm one? She (whatever her name happens to be, no spoiling.) and Dauf are clearly up to something. To what end do they want Claymores to Awaken for them? Could it be more than gaining allies? Studying their own condition, testing new limits, sowing chaos?

It's also nice to see yet another Sailor Scout Seiyuu join the ranks of the Claymore cast. Kotono Mitsuishi herself as Jean. All we need now is Mars and Venus. An interesting side note according to ANN is that the Director of Claymore played a super-minor role in Sailor Moon.

[Darknodin]

I love cold blooded monsters/villains appearing like children.

... a psychiatrist would love this quote!

[Board of Command]

I'm pretty sure Duff is an Awakened as well.

[Ryllharu]

Who said that he wasn't? I thought it was kind of obvious. Unique form (unlike the two archetypes outside) and he can maintain a form that looks similar to his Awakened one, something seen in all the Awakeneds so far.

The chair creepy little loli was sitting in looked suspiciously like a throne.

[Board of Command]

It seems strange that Awakeneds would seek out and band with youma, after all, they still were Claymores at one time.
I thought you were implying Duff was a regular yoma. I guess you were referring to the minions outside.

[masamuneehs]

i was quite confused at first too. It's clear Duff (DUFF man, oh yeah!:cool:) is strong as hell. I mean, he smashed an Awakened Being into itty-bitty pieces with his bare hands... and even if Kathia or whatever her name was who Awoke was a low thirty number, that's still commendable that he just took her out like that...

I thought that, in some weird way, loli and Duff were one entity, mostly because loli was so ... well, just so normal looking. (I temporarily forgot about the appearance of the Awakened which Ophelia slew). She must be ancient and absurdly powerful (like the innkeeper said) to have an Awakened male under her control.

Another random thought... 4 Claymores went to the mine. Jean is still alive and struggling, Kathia Awoke and got crushed, that one girl died back in town, but we still have the fourth one. She was just lying there, and loli made a point that "If you don't hurry and awaken, you'll end up like that... full of holes in dying." But, for some reason, I just didn't buy that that 4th Claymore is truly out of the picture just yet. Maybe I'm just reading too much hope into it, and that she'll turn out to be a wild card in helping Clare...

[Board of Command]

I'm pretty sure she's dead.

[BananaFob]

I liked that we saw a glimpse of The Organization. Looks like Artriea is getting assigned to tracking down Clare... I doubt they'll be very happy that she's been ducking them for the past three months... I assume she did it so she could find Raki, rather than be assigned all over the place at random. I really liked how Clare's 'handler' was just smiling and acting all smug throughout the meeting.

It should Galatea, the Claymore who sensed Clare's yoki during Clare's Awakened Being fight from before.


Seriously, he should have just stayed in the closest town is right! And then walking about in a storm... comp said it well.

Well, in the consequence that Clare would have died against Orphelia, then Orphelia would have came after him next because she kills witnesses that knew or saw her killing her own comrades.


Damn it Clare! Your comrades are in danger, stop walking! lol

Maybe she didn't want to waste any energy getting there; she did say that it took about a day to get there anyway, and from the looks of it, she got there in a half-day.


It seems strange that Awakeneds would seek out and band with youma, after all, they still were Claymores at one time.

Awakened Beings should still be 100% Youma. Having Orphelia as an exception, I think most of the Awakenings that were intended to awaken would have lost their conscience (or mentality stability), so they end up thinking and doing the same as other Youma do. Also, seeing the Youma massacre (back when Teresa was alive), it would make sense that Youma band and work together to get their food, like a pride of lions. Don't really know, just my theory.

[Ryllharu]

Ophelia is a perfect example that some Awakeneds are not just youma. Yes, she was pretty much a nutcase, but she still harbored the immense hatred towards Awakeneds. Lower ranking ones seem to be little more than youma, eating and moving. Like the tentacle one Ophelia killed or this most recent one. Higher ranking (experienced) ones still seem to possess a great deal of their own motivations, the Nameless Male, Ophelia, Dauf and the loli. They may be overcome with the pleasure that comes in their newfound existence, as Priscilla did, but some of the more traumatized ones like Ophelia surely remember their hatred for youma.

In one of the cases with Teresa and her hunters, someone said that they simply took over the entire village and waited for travelers, and that was very unusual, since they are generally very selfish creatures. I would imagine if anything would make a youma bow beneath an Awakened, it would be fear.

[shinta|hikari]

If I remember correctly, Clare told Raki to run as far as he can, since even if she (Clare from Ophelia since that was the original plan) was able to escape, Raki would have just been hunted down and killed by Ophelia. I know running for a few months may seem like overkill, but I think that he has simply gotten plenty far when he escaped, and that led him to believe that Clare would have a very difficult time finding him, so he might have set out to find her himself.

Raki was never the type to simply sit back and wait, even if that is the smartest thing to do, so doing what he is now is within his character, but he isnt so stupid as to simply run off from the get go with no reason as some of you suggest.

[complich8]

Raki also didn't really seem to be fleeing too much or keeping too low a profile. I think maybe he's probably shifted from "Escape from Ophelia" mode into "Look for Clare" mode.

And yeah, wasn't I saying before that it seems like Awakened are pretty present-minded? Aware, cognizant, clever, and even rational?

(edit to add: indeed, I did say that! back around post 300 (http://forums.gotwoot.net/showthread.php?t=14490&postcount=300)! This thread is getting really hard to keep track of >_<)

[Knives122]

The best thing to do comp is to not care about Raki at all, he's pretty much worthless.

New Claymore though, is the opposite of worthless.

[Yukimura]

Jean (Not Jeane, screw that silent e) is badass. She's been impaled way worse then Claire ever has and she's still kicking with barely any sweat.

[Idealistic]

Jean (Not Jeane, screw that silent e) is badass. She's been impaled way worse then Claire ever has and she's still kicking with barely any sweat.

Hmph! Jean is #9, Clare is #47. :p

[shinta|hikari]

In that episode, Clare was wondering what Raki was to her, I wonder, what really? I know this has been asked before, but with some new info from this episode, it really seems that Clare has at least a bit of romantic feelings for Raki (considering the scenes that were shown during the flashback and her monologue).

[Ryllharu]

And yeah, wasn't I saying before that it seems like Awakened are pretty present-minded? Aware, cognizant, clever, and even rational?
Not all of them are though. The one Ophelia killed just seemed to roam from city to city eating people, and only spoke about her own superiority. From the very few mentions of her since, Priscilla seems to have only gone on a rampage and then disappeared. Kathia couldn't even speak, and neither apparently could the one that Miria killed before she semi-awakened.

Excepting Priscilla, since she's emotionally unstable (more than Ophelia), it seems more like only the strongest Claymores can get to that level of control that allows them the self control to plan and execute thoughtful plans. Again, just like with Claymores themselves, governing over their strengths seems to be a matter of will power and control.

Creepy Loli seems to have a great deal of it.

[mage]

Shit, this episode ended in the worst spot ever. I may have to start reading the manga now.

[Board of Command]

Jean (Not Jeane, screw that silent e) is badass. She's been impaled way worse then Claire ever has and she's still kicking with barely any sweat.
Clare will get stabbed a lot more after she finds Raki.

If you know what I mean.

[masamuneehs]

I can't say I agree quite yet that it's a romantic bond between the two. Raki hasn't given much indication that he's actually attracted to Clare, more like he's eternally grateful to her and looks up to her. I think the 'big brother' ruse is an accurate description.

As for what Clare feels about Raki... it did seem that her thoughts on him were a little flowery and... well, maybe... At first I thought it was because he reminded her of her previous life with Teresa, but now I think that. And will Raki be able to oppose her advances (will he even want to?)?

The 'Clare and Raki' supporters here at least publicly acknowledge their pedophilic tendencies in their sigs... /b/ much?

[Board of Command]

I'm actually a /h/ guy myself.

[Psyke]

Shit, this episode ended in the worst spot ever. I may have to start reading the manga now.

I'm fighting the same urge too. But I figure I'll still wait for the weekly episodes, as I really like the animation and music. The manga will have to wait. :cool:

[Ryllharu]

It's worth it if you can hold out. So far, it's been a near perfect adaptation, only shortening a worthless chapter 2 into a 30 second clip, cutting a few lines of Teresa backstory dialog, and adding more material about Miria.

The music is good (I'm really liking the bagpipes), and the voicework has been superb. I got chills when Miria was being tortured by the Awakened that I never got from the manga. Some of that is Kikuko Inoue's very nice performance, but that scene was just so much more terrible in the anime. Ophelia also gets projected way up the Creepy-o-meter with voicework.

[joker-kun]

Maybe the chick that was sent to find Clare will end up helping her?

[Munsu]

Well, it depends on what type of orders she was given... If the orders were simply to find her, then I think there's a chance that she'll help her. But if the orders were to eliminate her, then she'll surely take her down... I don't see these Claymores defying the organization on a mere whim. Also, do you think that she'll reach Clare on time? She seems to be far away.

[Inazuma]

Claymores -do- travel fast when they want to.

[masamuneehs]

for some reason, I can only see Galatea as not helping... It just fits the formula that the people blindly loyal to the organization often impede the main character (who has his/her own sense of justice/right)... Unless the creepy girl is really so super strong and so requires Clare, Jean and Galatea to team up... Clare simply can't fall to a character like that!

edit - corrected

[Yukimura]

The one sent to find Clare was #3 Galatea not #5. #5 is the one that found Irene.

[tnynyn]

Loving this series more and more. Cant wait for the next episode. And I think Clare and Raki will have some kind of romance. I think it was the previous episode where they mention Claymores grow to a certain point and then stop unlike humans. Why else would they mention that if they were suggesting that Clare isnt getting any older while Raki is still growing. And I HOPE Irene is still alive, shes my fav...

[Y]

And I HOPE Irene is still alive, shes my fav...

Irene had no arms or weapons and the assassin Claymore was supposed to be even better than her #5 rank implied. She is definitely dead.

[animus]

Irene also said she needed both of her arms to even remotely stand a chance.

[shinta|hikari]

I think what she said was, it would have worked out if I had both arms (from the actual japanese), which I believe meant that she would win, since escape from claymores of high caliber is virtually impossible.

That comment was of course not only to imply the strength of number 5, but also to eliminate any guilt or blame that Clare may suffer for having taken Irene's arm.

[Idealistic]

Loving this series more and more. Cant wait for the next episode. And I think Clare and Raki will have some kind of romance. I think it was the previous episode where they mention Claymores grow to a certain point and then stop unlike humans. Why else would they mention that if they were suggesting that Clare isnt getting any older while Raki is still growing. And I HOPE Irene is still alive, shes my fav...

Hmmm... Interesting point. Kind of flushes out the "pedophile" thought of Clare.