Naruto 346

[UChessmaster]

Spoiler Pics:

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/3930/5b7231f006fs2ls2.jpg

http://img249.imageshack.us/my.php?image=9fa742d003fy2iv0.jpg

MQ RAW

http://rapidshare.com/files/21345511/Naruto_346_RAW_low-resolution.zip.html

[Knives122]

where exactly did you get these from?

[JaySee]

Cool! Crazy water guy. This hints to me that Oro's in Sasuke.

[Meteros]

looks like it's sasuke planning to destroy oro's old equipment.
does that guy remind anyone else of kimimaro? i know it's only the back of his head

[Sasori]

looks like it's sasuke planning to destroy oro's old equipment.
does that guy remind anyone else of kimimaro? i know it's only the back of his head

You're not alone on that one. I see a resemblance too. I highly doubt it really is him though.
I'm also wondering who is in the hospital bed. whoever he/she is, the have longish black hair.. Any guesses?

[jing]

My friend who knows abit of jap said that Sasuke had defeated Orochimaru... and that he was freeing that water guy.. :S the guy in bed seems like a dead body of Kazuku

[Meteros]

supposed translation of sasuke page (not by me):

Voice from Tube: Ahh, It's definately you...If so, it seems that you've defeated Orochimaru?

Sasuke: Yeah...More importantly than that, I'm getting you out of here.

Second Page:

Liquid Guy: At last you've done it...Thanks alot, Sasuke.

Sasuke: Suigetsu (Water Moon?...Seems to be his name?)...We'll start with you...Come with me.

*Suigetsu is made using the kanji for "water" and "moon". It's short for 鏡花水月 (kyou-ka-sui-getsu), an analogy for poetry in Japanese, where the true meaning of poetry can't be described in words. The literal meaning is something I quote from the dictionary and it states: "as the moon reflects on the water, the flowers reflect on a mirror."

[RyougaZell]

That guy in the bed does resemble Kakuzuu if you look closely... maybe they are researching how his body worked?
And the water guy... what the heck?

[AlbinoFury]

yeh dude on table is prob kakuzu looks like a morgue of sorts with all those instruments on the wall. akatsuki autopsy maybe?

[LobsterMagnet]

God I hate these cock tease spoiler images. Although who the hell is the water dude? If oro's really dead I'm very curious to see where things go from here.

[Stoopider]

If you hate them, don't look at them. Come every Fridays when it should be fully out by then.

Btw,

ALL HAIL WATER PEOPLE!!! *prostrates*

[Assertn]

Lobstermagnet...just go to www.mangahelpers.com for the latest info on the manga. They probably announce the raws, translations, and scanlations faster than anyone else I know.

[itadakimasu]

i'm hoping that sasuke defeated oro but.... like others have said; it would be kind of strange for him to just be killed off without much of a fight. but then again.... sasuke has become a total bad ass.

on another note.... i only wish that i could wait for a fulll volume of naruto to come out before reading, but i dont have that kind of patience.

I removed your avatar because you were using a manga image that hasn't been shown in the Naruto anime yet. Please choose a different avatar, preferably one that isn't a spoiler.

-NM

[toonice714]

Interesting. Maybe sasuke will run into his brother soon enough with a potential ally it makes more sense to have sasuke run into kisame and itachi without gettin double teamed. I also think that if that happens this random ninja wil be a body hop for a dormant Orochimaru. He's probably some mist ninja that ran away with a ridiculous bloodline limit, but its hard to retain form or some bs.

Edit: why are the mist ninja always running away? they seem to have the least control over their ninja.

[BananaFob]

I doubt it'll happen, but I hope that liquid guy is the other Uchiha.

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

I doubt it'll happen, but I hope that liquid guy is the other Uchiha.

very doubtful

[Idealistic]

I doubt it'll happen, but I hope that liquid guy is the other Uchiha.

If it was, what would be the point of capturing sasuke?

[Honoko]

Yet another (not-so)-crazy-theory-slash-hope-of-the-week:
Water Dude is a necessary plot device so that Sasuke has lines to say while he's out and about looking for his older brother. So I could imagine Water Dude's character go in a couple of directions.

1. He's symbolic of Sasuke's "delusion" of revenge and will support it no matter what, even to the point of getting in Naruto's way, until Naruto kills him (probably by the second or third encounter if we know Kishimoto's storytelling style =P). Or:

2. He's like the "Sai" character for Sasuke and will be rational and even join up with Naruto muuuuch later on to help Sasuke "see the light."

There are obviously other possibilities =P I think those two are the most trite and most likely, that's all. Now go ahead and neg-rep, you anonymous neg-repper(s?) of the past three weeks! Bask in the deliberate undeserved attention I am giving you and LOVE IT!

[AlbinoFury]

Kisame is from the water village, maybe that'll tie in somehow to el water dude.

[LobsterMagnet]

For some reason I just see Sasuke confronting itachi and kisame alongside water dude. Water dude keeps kisame busy while itachi and sasuke provide the long awaited main event which all I can say is that kishimoto needs to pull out all the stops if that happens.

For some reason I'm really thinking that the water guy's going to be somehow tied to kisame and may even serve to reveal some back story behind him. Seeing as other then the fact that he's one of the seven-mist swordsmen we don't really know jack shit about him.

[RyougaZell]

Kisame is from the water village, maybe that'll tie in somehow to el water dude.

there is no water village.

Kisame is from MIST Village.

[Idealistic]

Considering Itachi and Sasuke are both genius', shouldn't Itachi be training as well? In other words how will Sasuke catch up to Itachi in terms of power? Something I've been questioning too... Like has Kakashi and all the other jounins along with the kages gotten stronger?

Unless it's sort of like since the younger have older people to teach them more things, they are able to become stronger/learn faster.... But usually that's when the young becomes the same age as the old where the comparison can be made.. (For example... X at the age of 18 is this much better than Y when Y was 18, Y is currently 27 years old, but Y is still MUCH better because of more experience/training.) The jounins and kages aren't retired yet, how do genins and such catch up to them? They aren't even that old yet... Unless the prime of a ninja is in his teen years..

I don't like how someone with few years of experience can become better than someone who has many many years of experience... I can see Naruto doing that because he has his Kage Bunshin training.... While no one else does.....

But if that's how the story goes... Then I guess I'll just have to accept it won't I?

[dimitris127]

talent....itachi is a genius as you said but sasuke maybe a more talented genius so it's only natural to surpass him....that's what ends the gap of years of training and experience...

[itadakimasu]

For some reason I just see Sasuke confronting itachi and kisame alongside water dude. Water dude keeps kisame busy while itachi and sasuke provide the long awaited main event which all I can say is that kishimoto needs to pull out all the stops if that happens.

For some reason I'm really thinking that the water guy's going to be somehow tied to kisame and may even serve to reveal some back story behind him. Seeing as other then the fact that he's one of the seven-mist swordsmen we don't really know jack shit about him.

Sounds interesting, although speaking of kisame.... i really want to see Gai and the real Kisame fight so Gai can actually pwn him like he did the kisami\clone.

*locks himself in a room with only water and food for 4 months so he can have lots of naruto to read when he gets out*

[Assertn]

talent....itachi is a genius as you said but sasuke maybe a more talented genius so it's only natural to surpass him....that's what ends the gap of years of training and experience...

Sasuke's got alot going for him right now though....

He's taken one of the best jutsus from Kakashi,
He's taken years of training from orochimaru and surpassed him (and you have to imagine, that sharingan aside, oro's combat ability should be comparable to itachi)
He's artificially increased his strength potential with curse seals

[biglamchops]

I think he has the mangekyou

[elmojo]

i have NO idea what kabuto is upto, this guy totally is mysterous

[conquistaDan]

I was looking around and I found this, hope it helps


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjmZeAF02-E

[UChessmaster]

MQ RAW

http://rapidshare.com/files/21345511/Naruto_346_RAW_low-resolution.zip.html

[RyougaZell]

Could you upload it to SendSpace please? Someone downloaded too much from rapidshare here in the office and it won't allow me to download for several hours.

[pandacon]

raw in sendspace:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/nml78h

[LobsterMagnet]

Yeah, all we need now is a translation. I'm just wondering though did sasuke evolve some new form of the sharingan? Originally it was just three comma's now all of the comma's are connected by a circular line. What does it mean? Has he gained some new evolution, not quite mangekyou but something different?

Man I want a translation.

[mage]

Probably Mangekyou. Just as Kakashi's looks different from Itachi's, Sasuke's should look different from both of theirs.

[Knives122]

hmmmmm Naruto still doing that really annoying "Don't worry, I'll make it work" smile again...He's probably going to do something stupid.

[Kopy<Kat>Kakashi]

http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=194294 Rejoice

[Assertn]

Wow....I always anticipated a big battle taking place in an illusionary dimension between sasuke and a major villian, although I was thinking more along the lines of him vs itachi in the tsukuyomi realm. That's really dope though how he was walking out of the room while the battle was still in progress, and then pulls kabuto in to witness it.

soo good =]

[fahoumh]

Scanlation: http://rapidshare.com/files/21364853/Naruto346bydes.zip.html

[Yukimura]

Naruto 346 by WS [Sendspace Link] (http://www.sendspace.com/file/fo0jz8)

Wow I didn't expect Rasenshuriken to be that crazy, but leave it to Naruto to make a move that could completely decimate an opponent on a cellular level. And of course it hurts him as well so he can't use it any more (but inevitably will anyway). However I've thought up a solution already, If he only uses a clone to deliver the attack it should greatly reduce the damage he takes to his real body.

[Knives122]

Well it's good to know I was at least right about a persons will factoring into that jutsu.

Huzzah for me.

[RyougaZell]

If the chapter itself was good already... that translation makes it even better.

Sasuke took over Oro... does that mean he will now possess all of Oro's knowledge?
And the RasenShuriken is now a Kinjutsu?

[JaySee]

So it is a Sasuke-Oro hybrid. It's just that Sasuke's in control. So Sasuke's like Two-Face. I wonder how long until Oro starts coming back.

What's weird is in the first page Sasuke doesn't have lines connecting his swirls, it's just his iris, then he does have a clearly drawn line. Maybe the beginning stages of Mangekyo, but I doubt it's the full "MS."

So Sasuke wasn't strong enough afterall to kill Orochimaru. He wasn't even as strong as Itachi to keep Oro out of his head.

[LobsterMagnet]

When Sauske said he was taking over did he mean he's going to take over the sound village as well? It'd be interesting if he decides to use the vast evil empire that oro's spent the last few years developing. Who knows maybe he'll use the 1,000 plus sound nins he knocked unconscious to keep the akatsuki busy while he goes after itachi.

But seeing how much uchila pride he now has the real question remains? When's he going to start the resurrection of his clan by producing dozens of little sasuke-kuns. Hell hath no fury for the chuunin women of konoah then when sasuke finally kill itachi and gets around to the business of resurrecting his clan.

[Honoko]

Woohoo, it's getting exciting :D Trust Kishi to give Oro a loophole and possible comeback in the far off future. Me, I hope Oro stays dead.

Meanwhile, the backlash of that shuriken rasengan is a total downer. Why can't Naruto think of something super cool AND useful all the time? All his finishing moves potentially damages him in some way-- kyuubi, now this...yes, we know he'll use it over and over again until Sakura's forced to cut off his dead arm or something but.... is Sasuke in the same boat? Are his jutsus potentially damaging to him as well? So far, he's coming off as Teh Badass As Usual. I'm tired of this obvious superiority he has over Naruto.

[RyougaZell]

Remember how Sasuke is limited by the number of Chidori's he can make in a day. Also... when he forced a Chidori via curse seal his skin burned or something (don't remember if this was shown in the anime or just the manga)

[Raven]

Remember that Naruto will always be the underdog, it's just the nature of his character. It would be weird if they were on par. Sasuke has to be at least a little cooler and superior.

[Genma]

Meh, I guess my initial theory was incorrect. However, much like Kyuubi, it looks like Sasuke too has something to control within him.

The water guy he released seems pretty cool as well.

Despite the lack of fighting action, I found this chapter to be really good. Excited for the next one (which I can't say for the anime...)

[Assertn]

kyubi rapidly regenerates cells that naruto loses through combat or from the burning chakra armor, but it won't heal the broken nerve links in his cells? Maybe he SHOULD cut his arm off just to grow the whole thing back.

[JaySee]

Seems to me Sasuke's the underdog right now seeing as Naruto could beat Orochimaru and Sasuke couldn't.

I like Yukimura's idea about using a clone for the wind rasengan, but it'd probably make it go "poof!" Most likely Naruto will just figure out a way to throw it.

[Chouonsoku]

There's no way to say for sure that Sasuke couldn't have destroyed Orochimaru. He is a genius after all, for all we know he purposely took control over Orochimaru instead of destroying him to aquire his knowledge, maybe even Itachi's possible location.

[itadakimasu]

I'm just wondering if by 'absorbing' oro... if sasuke is gaining anything? will he be able to use some jutsu that oro might not have taught him.... is he going to be stronger... or is oro just going to not exist?

[Assassin]

That's really dope though how he was walking out of the room while the battle was still in progress, and then pulls kabuto in to witness it.

soo good =]

hmm...that didn't occur to me. I just though that the battle was over, and what sasuke showed kabuto was a telepathic movie of sorts. you're idea's cooler though :p.

As for the cell damage stuff, im really glad to hear that. Finally the rase-shuriken seems like a proper badass jutsu, instead of just an over powered punch. Also, if it destroys naruto's own cells, shouldn't he just be able to dispose of those cells and regenerate new ones, kinda like how skin cells work?

[rockmanj]

Hmmm... i think its good that the super-powerful jutsus seem to be detrimental to the user (MS, curse seal, rasenshuriken, etc.) Otherwise, it would make really powerful sharacters unstoppable juggernauts. Just imagine if kakshi could use unlimited lightning blades...itd kinda be boring; just "ZAP" and "ZAP", and before you know it, Kakashi has slaughtered half the ninjas in the manga :P

[Yukimura]

@Assassin: From what I understand the tiny wind blades were destroying the chakra transfer tubes between each cell, I'd imagine that those things may not be duplicated whenever the cells divide, meaning once they're gone you may lose that much chakra capacity for longer than it takes to heal the actual wounds. Just a theory though.

If the chakra nodes duplicate when the cells do then you're right and simply healing will fix the problem. I think this is unlikely though as Tsunade should know about Naruto's super healing abilities by now, but she's still concerned.

[Assertn]

Seems to me Sasuke's the underdog right now seeing as Naruto could beat Orochimaru and Sasuke couldn't.
Since when?


I like Yukimura's idea about using a clone for the wind rasengan, but it'd probably make it go "poof!" Most likely Naruto will just figure out a way to throw it.

no.........
Naruto had a clone that was holding a rasenshuriken just fine until kakuzu attacked it.


That is true that cutting off chakra access to the cells could limit the kyubi's healing power......but it still seems weird that if those same cells were instead burned cleanly off that they'd be regenerated back to normal

[dimitris127]

kyubi rapidly regenerates cells that naruto loses through combat or from the burning chakra armor, but it won't heal the broken nerve links in his cells? Maybe he SHOULD cut his arm off just to grow the whole thing back.

i just love your theory but wouldn't that shorten narutos lifespan?i remember tsunade or someone telling that if he heals rapidly from a severe damage all the time he will die younger than he should so if he does wind rasngan all the time...anyway i knew sasuke wasn't gonna be taken over by oro...

[Assertn]

Yep...either have a shorter lifespan or lose the ability to use chakra

[JaySee]

Since when?
Since when what?



no.........
Naruto had a clone that was holding a rasenshuriken just fine until kakuzu attacked it.
Did it land? Nope. Therefore it didn't damage the clone to make it go "poof!"



That is true that cutting off chakra access to the cells could limit the kyubi's healing power......but it still seems weird that if those same cells were instead burned cleanly off that they'd be regenerated back to normal
Consider it scar tissue. Still alive, so it won't be replaced.

[February]

Seems to me Sasuke's the underdog right now seeing as Naruto could beat Orochimaru and Sasuke couldn't.

I like Yukimura's idea about using a clone for the wind rasengan, but it'd probably make it go "poof!" Most likely Naruto will just figure out a way to throw it.


Since when?

@Jaysee

Assert is talking about when you said: "Sasuke's the underdog seeing as Naruto could beat Oro and Sasuke couldn't"

I agree with Assert, I dont see where you get your logic from:
When could Naruto beat Oro (and when did he ever), and from the last few chapters right now, how could you even begin to say that Naruto is stronger than Sasuke?

Naruto learns ONE powerful ninjutsu, and luckily beats an Akatsuki member by a simple Kagebushin tactic (which shouldnt have fooled an Akatsuki)

while Sasuke not only beats Oro but takes over Oro, (which one can easily assume that Sasuke has Oro's powers, if not all)

You must be out of your mind..Naruto still fights relying on one powerful finish move with his usual kage bunshin while Sasuke has mastered Genjutsu along with enough power to beat Oro....and you still say Naruto is stronger than Sasuke? Wtf.

[Assertn]

As soon as the jutsu lands, the kage bunshin wouldn't need to be there anymore anyway, because, like when the real Naruto landed it, the shuriken basically carries through with the devastation on its own after that point.

There wasn't really a sign of struggle from Sasuke the entire time he was fighting oro. The closest thing to it was the genjutsu dimension oro put him in. Oro didn't even pull out his final form against 4 tailed naruto.

[FullMetalAlchemist]

@Jaysee

Assert is talking about when you said: "Sasuke's the underdog seeing as Naruto could beat Oro and Sasuke couldn't"

I agree with Assert, I dont see where you get your logic from:
When could Naruto beat Oro (and when did he ever), and from the last few chapters right now, how could you even begin to say that Naruto is stronger than Sasuke?

Naruto learns ONE powerful ninjutsu, and luckily beats an Akatsuki member by a simple Kagebushin tactic (which shouldnt have fooled an Akatsuki)

while Sasuke not only beats Oro but takes over Oro, (which one can easily assume that Sasuke has Oro's powers, if not all)

You must be out of your mind..Naruto still fights relying on one powerful finish move with his usual kage bunshin while Sasuke has mastered Genjutsu along with enough power to beat Oro....and you still say Naruto is stronger than Sasuke? Wtf.


Lol naruto almost killed oro in there last fight when he went 4tails mode, so yes naruto can kill oro. Can't say 4tail mode doesn't count because sasuke went cursed seal mode. All naruto needs is speed training really with a little more taijutsu and he would own hard core, but sasuke has that ninjutsu and genjutsu so i wouldn't say naruto tops him just yet.

I have this feeling there wont be a serious naruto vs. sasuke part 2. i think he will join konoha in the end without a second fight, maybe one of those fights against friends in the end of the manga.

[iMUSTbeTHEdevil]

So my question is....when is Naruto going to learn a powerful attack that he can use without hurting himself?


Or maybe that isnt what the show is about, it is more about him over coming the challenges of not being able to use the Nine Tails or the Rasengan Shuriken? I dunno, I would just love to see Naruto build as a character with more techniques that he can use that is all!

-dg-

[animus]

Or he can be like "Leave it to me!". And has his insane recovery rate allow him to use it a good amount, yet not foolishly.

[Lithonite]

Orochimaru, will slowly start to effect Sasuke...Since we know he isnt dead it is unlikely( just as it was unlikely that Sasuke would if he had been taken over ) he will just stay dormant within Sasuke

If Naruto figuresout how to control the 9 Tails chackra a little better, He can use 1 of the 9 Tails chakra Arms to create the Rasengane Shurikan, abd avoid any and all damage to himself

[dimitris127]

if he does use the first tail mode as a shield don't you think that from going one tail the wind-rasengan will go up in as well so maybe it won't be as simple as that...although it is a good thought...but as we've seen naruto can't stay in one tail mode for long...the tails keep growing at a rapid state...so either he needs to be fast and effective or i don't know what....

[Idealistic]

What I want to know is why the sudden decision change Sasuke made... Before he told Naruto he was willing to give his body to Oro to become stronger. I guess Sasuke is now stronger than Oro, but we don't know if Sasuke was just being over-confident or if he really is stronger. Even if he was, wouldn't he be stronger combined with Oro?

I'm waiting for the explanation to this... Maybe Sasuke's been thinking about what Naruto said... Or maybe not...

[Assertn]

What I want to know is why the sudden decision change Sasuke made... Before he told Naruto he was willing to give his body to Oro to become stronger. I guess Sasuke is now stronger than Oro, but we don't know if Sasuke was just being over-confident or if he really is stronger. Even if he was, wouldn't he be stronger combined with Oro?

I'm waiting for the explanation to this... Maybe Sasuke's been thinking about what Naruto said... Or maybe not...

Sasuke said in the past few chapters something along the lines of "It is no longer necessary for me to give my body to you, because I am now stronger than you"

[RasenDori]

Seems to me Sasuke's the underdog right now seeing as Naruto could beat Orochimaru and Sasuke couldn't.

I like Yukimura's idea about using a clone for the wind rasengan, but it'd probably make it go "poof!" Most likely Naruto will just figure out a way to throw it.

didnt he use a clone with the rasen shuriken the second time he tried to get kakuzu as bait? so that idea may just work

[JaySee]

I love how everyone forgets that one of the reasons Sasuke left in the first place was because he was jealous that Naruto was stronger than him.

[Munsu]

That's irrelevant. Your reasoning behind making Sasuke the underdog was that he was unable to kill Orochimaru, which is wrong because you don't have any facts to prove that Sasuke was not capable of killing him.
For all we know, what he did with Orochimaru takes more skill. Also, you're assuming that Naruto was capable of killing Orochimaru back then, but then again he did not do it, so we don't know what Orochimaru might've been capable of if driven to desperation. That Naruto was capable of killing Orochimaru? Probably. Did he do it? No. Was Sasuke capable of killing Orochimaru? Probably. Did he do it? No.
From these statements, you cannot conclude that Sasuke is the underdog, especially since you seem to have forgotten that Sasuke seemed to have the upper hand when last they met.
And wasn't Sasuke the one who kicked Naruto's ass back in the end of the First Part of the manga? From my understanding that would make Naruto the underdog after Sasuke left the the city, again making your post above irrelevant.

[JaySee]

First, I wasn't referring to the argument of who's stronger, but to people saying it's ridiculous that Sasuke could be the underdog. Second, look up INDUCTIVE REASONING. Deductive reasoning isn't the only way to prove a point. Just because something is unprovable, doesn't mean it's unreasonable. It most certainly doesn't make it "wrong." Third, you answering your own stupid questions with answers that don't have any backing doesn't make them right. There's nothing that points to Sasuke being capable of killing Orochimaru. Your idiotic referrence to the FAR past of Sasuke beating Naruto (again, after Naruto became stronger) has nothing to do with now. The pattern is, as in most Shonen series, the underdog switches back and forth. Most likely Sasuke is the underdog right now.

Do you even know what relevance means? By the way you use it, I don't think so.

[Munsu]

I like how you dismiss my attempts to use facts from the past, but think that your use of past facts are relevant to the discussion. Especially when my use of a past event was to disprove your use of a past event, not to prove something in the present. And I don't need to look up inductive reasoning, I'm well aware of what it is. And looking it up will further strengthen my points on how your reasoning is flawed.

And I'm not dismissing that Sasuke may be an underdog at this point, I was just pointing out how your reasoning is flawed in thinking it was so. Still my facts hold and reasoning are stronger that what you've provided here, and that only leads me to believe that I'm in the right and you're in the wrong.

And I didn't answer my questions with no backing, especially when I'm not stating facts just my opinions which should pretty much be universal for people that have been watching and reading Naruto. Clearly you're not reading what I posted. I never said that Sasuke was capable of killing Orochimaru, I said that he PROBABLY was, and you can see that as an opinion rather than a statement of fact. And along the same lines you yourself have nothing that points that Naruto was capable of killing Orochimaru for that matter, so I have no idea why you bring this up.

Instead of nit-picking my post (unsuccessfully), why don't you show us a valid argument to prove your conclusion because you've yet to do that.

So even if Sasuke is the underdog right now, the argument you've been using to support your conclusions of him not capable of killing Orochimaru can't be more flawed.

[Assertn]

I find it amusing that we're being hypothetical about matchups between Naruto/Sasuke and Oro...when we've seen the 4 tailed naruto fight against oro AND these last two chapters where sasuke beat oro both physically and mentally.

Wasn't it glaringly obvious that in both scenarios, oro was easily capable of dying?

[mage]

Orochimaru's body was also not in very good shape in both fights. If he were in a skilled, fresh body I don't think he would have a problem with either Naruto or Sasuke. He was basically laying on his death bed when Sasuke broke through his door.

[chet_chetty]

yes, very good point Q-Bert.

edit - the part about Oro being on his deathbed that is.

[dimitris127]

hey let's not forget...not all fights begin with the fighters at their best right...so who knows if oro was in his best he still could lose by sasuke or naruto...also with naruto having sasuke in his mind and sasuke having itachi in his mind...well i don't think either is at his peak......

[SilentSnake]

well, if the 3th was at his peak he would have owned oro, but that doesn't matter just as the fact that oro's were on his deathbed.

deathbed or not, sasuke won, naruto probably wouldn't be able to take on oro anyway, but that's just speculation and it's all up to kishi, he decides.

[Assertn]

maybe....although I'd think that sauke overpowering oro in oro's own dimension was a greater display of strength than any physical matchup between super powers in the series.

Also, the snake-like form is oro's ultimate physical form, which sasuke defeated. 4tailed naruto never even saw oro's final form.

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

maybe....although I'd think that sauke overpowering oro in oro's own dimension was a greater display of strength than any physical matchup between super powers in the series.

Also, the snake-like form is oro's ultimate physical form, which sasuke defeated. 4tailed naruto never even saw oro's final form.

this is true but kabuto said oro was on the verge of dying in the next couple HOURS so there was obviously a big difference when he fought naruto

[dimitris127]

even though 4tails naruto didn't see oro's final form...let's not forget naruto made the black chakra ball that oro said himself it was an one hit kill...he made it easily and i believe he could create another one just as easy...another thing is that naruto can't be hit in 4tails mode...remember the sword that killed the third?also naruto was just 4tails how many numbers are there till 9 i believe 4(i'm not counting 9 in so from 4 to 8 we have 4 numbers)so naruto could win oro if he had time and was not interrupted...but for sasuke to win him in his own dimension...that's something naruto surely cannot do...

[kyubisrage]

Oh shit I just realized if Naruto goes 4 tails the kyubi might use the new jutsu naruto learned. Can you imagine how deadly it will be....... Also has naruto used the "Jutsu" jiraiya told him not to use I don't think he has

[SilentSnake]

Oh shit I just realized if Naruto goes 4 tails the kyubi might use the new jutsu naruto learned. Can you imagine how deadly it will be....... Also has naruto used the "Jutsu" jiraiya told him not to use I don't think he has

yeah, super duper mega hiper awesome 4-tailed-wind-shuriken-rasengan...:\

Honestly, I would prefer something a lil' bit more original instead of just making new rasengan variations and I bet I'm not the only one.

as for the jutsu Jiraiya told him not to use there's a possibility that it was going 4-tails and creating the black ball he then throws up at people :P

It would make sense because Oro is (ummm... was?) not just any ninja you could simply outsmart with kagebunshins.

But you never know.

[Munsu]

If not mistaken, it was simply going into 4+ tail mode was what was forbidden.

[mage]

It hasn't been said what the forbidden jutsu is.

[JaySee]

Let's breakdown everything that's wrong with Munsu's post even after the fact that he edited it afterwards to try to make it sound better.


That's irrelevant. Your reasoning behind making Sasuke the underdog was that he was unable to kill Orochimaru, which is wrong because you don't have any facts to prove that Sasuke was not capable of killing him.

My post IS relevant in that it points out that Sasuke was once the underdog.
As to the second part, here are the facts. Naruto beat the crap out of a standing and ready Orochimaru. Sasuke surprised attack a weakened Oro on his deathbed with what seems to be an intent to kill him and did not. Again, I'm using inductive reasoning, therefore I can't be "wrong." It can be a strong or weak arguement. In my opinion, it is strong.


For all we know, what he did with Orochimaru takes more skill. Also, you're assuming that Naruto was capable of killing Orochimaru back then, but then again he did not do it, so we don't know what Orochimaru might've been capable of if driven to desperation.

True. So what? This argument is much weaker than mine. You're assuming Sasuke failed on purpose. My assumption is more plausible.


That Naruto was capable of killing Orochimaru? Probably. Did he do it? No. Was Sasuke capable of killing Orochimaru? Probably. Did he do it? No.

The manga strongly points that Naruto could've killed Oro. It doesn't point at all that Sasuke could have. The fact that it looks like he attempted to and failed makes it more likely INPROBABLE than probable. It seems like you're using big words you don't know the definitions of. Probable means at least greater than 50% likely.
Also, let's not forget Orochimaru and Kabuto. They're no fools. They both believed Sasuke couldn't kill Orochimaru. Orochimaru said himself during their battle Sasuke couldn't kill him. Kabuto was shocked at the possibility that Sasuke killed Orochimaru. That and the fact he DIDN'T kill Orochimaru points VERY STRONGLY that he couldn't.


From these statements, you cannot conclude that Sasuke is the underdog, especially since you seem to have forgotten that Sasuke seemed to have the upper hand when last they met.

Wrong, I can and have concluded in my inductive argument that Sasuke is the likely underdog. Sasuke having the upper hand the last time they met is irrelevant. They've both had different training since then. Naruto theoretically having YEARS more.


And wasn't Sasuke the one who kicked Naruto's ass back in the end of the First Part of the manga? From my understanding that would make Naruto the underdog after Sasuke left the the city, again making your post above irrelevant.

Again, past meetings don't mean squat. They're irrelevant. Sasuke beating Naruto AFTER he left does not make Naruto the underdog WHEN he left. It's irrelevant. It's clearly implied Naruto is stronger and Sasuke knows and hates it when he leaves. Thus Sasuke was the underdog. None of your post makes mine irrelevant and nothing you post could make it irrelevant because it's relevant. Like I said, I don't think you know what relevance means. It means having relation to.


I like how you dismiss my attempts to use facts from the past, but think that your use of past facts are relevant to the discussion.

Because your facts are irrelevant.


Especially when my use of a past event was to disprove your use of a past event, not to prove something in the present.

You're trying to prove that Sasuke's not the underdog NOW and wasn't the underdog when he left. You're also trying to say my posts are irrelevant without understanding the word relevance.
You're using irrelevant past AND FUTURE events and forgetting about RELEVANT near past events.
Again, Sasuke beating Naruto AFTER he left is not relevant to Sasuke being the underdog WHEN he left.
Sasuke having the upper hand on Naruto before Naruto fought and nearly killed a standing, ready Oro is not relevant to Sasuke not killing a suprised weakened Oro.


And I don't need to look up inductive reasoning, I'm well aware of what it is. And looking it up will further strengthen my points on how your reasoning is flawed.

I don't think you know what it means because it's a bigger word than RELEVANCE and OPINION which you mess up later on in this post. My reasoning is not flawed, it is quite strong. Yours however are quite flawed.


And I'm not dismissing that Sasuke may be an underdog at this point, I was just pointing out how your reasoning is flawed in thinking it was so. Still my facts hold and reasoning are stronger that what you've provided here, and that only leads me to believe that I'm in the right and you're in the wrong.

Looks like you are arguing that Sasuke isn't likely an underdog at this point. You haven't pointed out any flaws in my reasoning what so ever. Only flawed reasoning of your own using irrelevant facts. "I'm right, you're wrong." WOW! That right there speaks volumes of your mentality and intelligence.


And I didn't answer my questions with no backing, especially when I'm not stating facts just my opinions which should pretty much be universal for people that have been watching and reading Naruto. Clearly you're not reading what I posted. I never said that Sasuke was capable of killing Orochimaru, I said that he PROBABLY was, and you can see that as an opinion rather than a statement of fact.

You haven't backed that Sasuke could kill Orochimaru. There's no evidence that points to that. You can only assume he didn't on purpose. Where as Naruto full well would've killed Orochimaru, but was stopped by a third party.
Again, using big words you don't understand. Probably is not an opinion. It is a statement of fact. You need to look up the word opinion. You're confusing probably with "I think so." That's not what probably means.


And along the same lines you yourself have nothing that points that Naruto was capable of killing Orochimaru for that matter, so I have no idea why you bring this up.

I didn't bring it up. Raven did. He said Naruto will ALWAYS be the underdog. He hasn't always been, and it seems to me he isn't now. The manga strongly points that Naruto could've killed Oro.


Instead of nit-picking my post (unsuccessfully), why don't you show us a valid argument to prove your conclusion because you've yet to do that.

I haven't nit-picked your post until now, and I think I'm doing it QUITE successfully. Again, you use big words you seem not to understand. A valid arguement relates to DEDUCTIVE REASONING. I'm using INDUCTIVE REASONING. Go look them up.


So even if Sasuke is the underdog right now, the argument you've been using to support your conclusions of him not capable of killing Orochimaru can't be more flawed.

You've pointed out no flaws in my argument. You've just argued with irrelevant and... what's the word... mistaken statements of your own.

[Munsu]

My post IS relevant in that it points out that Sasuke was once the underdog.
That's fine, when you first posted that, it seemed that you were using it as a statement to prove that Sasuke was currently the underdog. You cleared that up in your next post explaining that you were talking to people that said that it's impossible for Sasuke to be an underdog.


True. So what? This argument is much weaker than mine. You're assuming Sasuke failed on purpose. My assumption is more plausible.

I didn't assume shit, I brought up a possibility. Guess someone else needs to start looking up the meaning of words.


The manga strongly points that Naruto could've killed Oro.

Never said that he wasn't capable.


That and the fact he DIDN'T kill Orochimaru points VERY STRONGLY that he couldn't.

You do realize that the curse seal placed in Sasuke actually handicaps him against Orochimaru, yet he manages to absorb Orochimaru himself? As I said, for all we know this takes more skill and serves a greater pupose than actually killing Orochimaru. As you can see, there isn't any assumption in that statement, it's simply a possibility that seems probable but you seem to neglect it completely.

In fact, that the seal specifically handicaps Sasuke against Orochimaru as an opponet, automatically should eliminate Orochimaru has a common element to measure the current dilemma of who is the underdog. So use any type of reasoning you like, this fact alone shouldn't let you make a reasonable conclusion.

The fact that he smirked and said something along the lines of "Actually, I absorbed him" suggests VERY STRONGLY that he did something superior to killing him. Plus, you could see that Orochimaru was crying like a little girl, and Sasuke looked like he took care of him pretty much effortlessly... heck, he infered that none of Orochimaru's jutsus were effective against him.



Wrong, I can and have concluded in my inductive argument that Sasuke is the likely underdog. Sasuke having the upper hand the last time they met is irrelevant. They've both had different training since then. Naruto theoretically having YEARS more.

I agree it's irrelevant, I was merely showing how your previous statement of Sasuke leaving Konoha was irrelevant in detertermining that the current Sasuke is the underdog. Which once again, you cleared up what you were using the statement for in a following post.


You're trying to prove that Sasuke's not the underdog NOW and wasn't the underdog when he left. You're also trying to say my posts are irrelevant without understanding the word relevance.

I've never tried to prove that Sasuke's not an underdog NOW and I'm not trying to prove that he was an underdog when he left, in fact I agree that he was an underdog when he left right up to the point when he last fought Naruto in the end of part 1. What I'm TRYING to prove is that your reasoning is flawed and hence your conlusion is flawed, that's all.

That I don't know what relevance is? Laughable.


You're also trying to say my posts are irrelevant without understanding the word relevance.
You're using irrelevant past AND FUTURE events and forgetting about RELEVANT near past events.
Again, Sasuke beating Naruto AFTER he left is not relevant to Sasuke being the underdog WHEN he left.
Sasuke having the upper hand on Naruto before Naruto fought and nearly killed a standing, ready Oro is not relevant to Sasuke not killing a suprised weakened Oro.

You're taking everything out of context. This all started because you made a statement of fact that seemed to be to support your previous conclusion, while it was in fact an attempt to show that it is possible for Sasuke to become an underdog. I had thought that the statement was used to prove that Sasuke is currently the underdog, and as your post above you have to agree that it is irrelevant if that was indeed used for that reason. You made clear your reason for using that statement in a post that followed, so I don't know why you keep bringing this shit up.


Looks like you are arguing that Sasuke isn't likely an underdog at this point. You haven't pointed out any flaws in my reasoning what so ever. Only flawed reasoning of your own using irrelevant facts. "I'm right, you're wrong." WOW! That right there speaks volumes of your mentality and intelligence.

Once again, you're assuming and putting words in my mouth. I'm not dismissing the possibility that Sasuke could be the underdog, I'm discrediting your reasoning. And I never said that I was right and you were wrong... What I said was that my facts hold and the reasoning provided up to that point, mine was stronger. Why is it stronger? Because not until your last post, you didn't provide any thought process, argument, or reasoning that supported the premise of Sasuke not being capable of killing Orochimaru, to me that premise is flawed and that's what I've been trying to show you but you fail to notice.

And since you like to look up terms and definitions and what not, what is a conclusion with a flawed premise? An inaccurate conclusion.


You haven't backed that Sasuke could kill Orochimaru.

I think I did a pretty good job at it above, and showed you why there's a posibility that he could.


I didn't bring it up. Raven did. He said Naruto will ALWAYS be the underdog. He hasn't always been, and it seems to me he isn't now. The manga strongly points that Naruto could've killed Oro.

Then I'd have to disagree with Raven too. And once again, I myself believe that Naruto could've killed Oro, but I also believe that Sasuke could've killed Oro. So, if those two possibilites are true, then there's no reason to believe that Sasuke is the underdog. We can't tell period.


A valid arguement relates to DEDUCTIVE REASONING. I'm using INDUCTIVE REASONING. Go look them up.

I used valid loosely. I meant that I didn't see any argument or reasoning, up to that point, by you that supported the accuracy of Sasuke not being capable of killing Orochimaru.


You've pointed out no flaws in my argument. You've just argued with irrelevant and... what's the word... mistaken statements of your own.

I think I did. The mere fact that the premise "Sasuke couln't kill Orochimaru" is flawed, makes your conclusion flawed and inaccurate.

[JaySee]

I love how you try to avoid the fact that you used the term "irrelevant" incorrectly TWICE, but continue to say you understand the word relevance.



You do realize that the curse seal placed in Sasuke actually handicaps him against Orochimaru, yet he manages to absorb Orochimaru himself? As I said, for all we know this takes more skill and serves a greater pupose than actually killing Orochimaru. As you can see, there isn't any assumption in that statement, it's simply a possibility that seems probable but you seem to neglect it completely.You do realize that the curse seal placed in Sasuke actually handicaps him against Orochimaru, yet he manages to absorb Orochimaru himself? As I said, for all we know this takes more skill and serves a greater pupose than actually killing Orochimaru. As you can see, there isn't any assumption in that statement, it's simply a possibility that seems probable but you seem to neglect it completely.

It's not neglected. I'm simply stating my case. That's not part of it. Why would I put the counter-argument into mine?



In fact, that the seal specifically handicaps Sasuke against Orochimaru as an opponet, automatically should eliminate Orochimaru has a common element to measure the current dilemma of who is the underdog. So use any type of reasoning you like, this fact alone shouldn't let you make a reasonable conclusion.

It's not a fact. It's your opinion that it should eliminate it. It doesn't. It's simply another factor. A factor that is very weak. Oro's other desciple, I forget her name, has already been shown to be able to go against the seal.



The fact that he smirked and said something along the lines of "Actually, I absorbed him" suggests VERY STRONGLY that he did something superior to killing him. Plus, you could see that Orochimaru was crying like a little girl, and Sasuke looked like he took care of him pretty much effortlessly... heck, he infered that none of Orochimaru's jutsus were effective against him.

It can also be chalked up to arrogance after the fact. It's already been established that Sasuke's an arrogant jerk. It didn't look as easy as you claim to me.



I've never tried to prove that Sasuke's not an underdog NOW and I'm not trying to prove that he was an underdog when he left, in fact I agree that he was an underdog when he left right up to the point when he last fought Naruto in the end of part 1. What I'm TRYING to prove is that your reasoning is flawed and hence your conlusion is flawed, that's all.

That I don't know what relevance is? Laughable.

You STILL haven't pointed out ANY errors in my reasoning. You're simply trying, unsuccessfully, to discount my premesis. You're also trying to calling my argument weak by saying your, in opinion far weaker, argument is better. And by it being better, mine is "wrong."

It's obviously you don't know what relevance is because you misused irrelevant in calling my post irrelevant and by saying your post makes my post irrelevant. 2 incorrect usages of the word. I'm glad you find your ignorance funny.



Then I'd have to disagree with Raven too. And once again, I myself believe that Naruto could've killed Oro, but I also believe that Sasuke could've killed Oro. So, if those two possibilites are true, then there's no reason to believe that Sasuke is the underdog. We can't tell period.

You're forgetting Naruto faught a ready and willing Oro. Sasuke faught a surprised and weakened Oro. Naruto killed an Akatsuki. Kabuto and Orochimaru both believed Sasuke could not kill Orochimaru and were not proven wrong. Even with your belief that Sasuke could've killed Oro, those point to Sasuke being the underdog.



I think I did. The mere fact that the premise "Sasuke couln't kill Orochimaru" is flawed, makes your conclusion flawed and inaccurate.

OK, fine. I'll reword it. Sasuke didn't and seemingly couldn't kill Orochimaru. I won't use the word PROBABLY incorrectly as you did. :p

[Munsu]

Man, you really have to be some sort of jackass. When the fuck did I use the word irrelevant incorrectly? Not once, so I don't know why you keep bringing that shit up. LEARN TO FUCKING READ.

You stated a reason why Sasuke left Konoha. I interpreted that as your attempt to prove that Sasuke is the underdog NOW, and that's why I called that post irrelevant to the matter you were trying to prove. After that you cleared up that the post was meant for something else, so that matter ends there as a misunderstanding. But fuck, I've explained the same shit numerous times already and you can't get it into that thick head of yours. Damn, you yourself said that those the staments from the past are irrelevant to the current matter.

That's all I'll say in the matter, you clearly can't read and are too close minded to read other people's arguments and opinion, and when you do read them you take them all out of context. It's impossible to comunicate with you, so go enjoy your life in ignorance.

[Raven]

I didn't bring it up. Raven did.


Then I'd have to disagree with Raven too.

Well obviously you're both incorrect. Disagreeing with me, tsk tsk. I don't even know how to be wrong!

[Assertn]

Here's my inductive reasoning: JaySee hasn't read this chapter yet.

[TwisT]

Here's my inductive reasoning: JaySee hasn't read this chapter yet.

QFT

And on why Sasuke is the Underdog. How can you think that? If the would match up against each other Sasuke would clearly win. We already know that he can supress Kyubi and all the power he brings. So what? Is Naruto gonna beat Sasuke with his rasengan and Kagebunshin?

Also we already know that the Sharingan is really overpowered. He can antisipate (yeye my spelling suck) and see throu attacks, copy jutsus, and even supress Kyubi and enter the realm that Oro created for his soultransfer and beat him.

And Sasuke have become alot stronger so even if Naruto have grown stronger Sasuke haven't fallen to long behind (if not even gained even more strenght) then Naruto.

So i dont see how you come to the conclusion that Sasuke would be the underdog.

[Assassin]

You're 'inductively' deducing that sasuke is or isn't the underdog based on how him and naruto fared against oro. But you can't compare 2 characters by comparing them to a 3rd. The only way to compare 2 peoples strenghts is for them to actually fight each other. Last time they fought, naruto was the underdog. 3 years have passed since then, both characters have trained. However, amount of training, number of jutsu's or strength of jutsu's have nothing to do with who can beat who. At age 6 kakashi was a jounin, ergo stronger then any chuunin ranked ninja, majority of who would've been in thier mid teens atleast. The chuuins have more training, but kakashi is still stronger. So just cuz naruto has had 'years' of traning doesn't mean he's necessarily stronger.

Until we see another sasuke vs naruto fight, there is no way to tell for sure who is the underdog. Remember, unlike DBZ, you dont have powerlevels in naruto. The underdog can change from fight to fight depending on strategy and terrain.

[Deadfire]

I love how you try to avoid the fact that you used the term "irrelevant" incorrectly TWICE, but continue to say you understand the word relevance.

Ir·rel·e·vant [i-rel-uh-vuhnt] –adjective
1. not relevant; not applicable or pertinent:
2. Law. (of evidence) having no probative value upon any issue in the case.

I'm sorry he did get his terms down. Your posts are not relevant to a case due to poor evidence because it had no value in the case in which you discuss


It's not neglected. I'm simply stating my case. That's not part of it. Why would I put the counter-argument into mine?

Because it would help you figure out how idiotic you look right now



It's not a fact. It's your opinion that it should eliminate it. It doesn't. It's simply another factor. A factor that is very weak. Oro's other desciple, I forget her name, has already been shown to be able to go against the seal.

It also showed the amount of pain see had to go against it, with also in that same part disabled her to have him surpass her defence


It can also be chalked up to arrogance after the fact. It's already been established that Sasuke's an arrogant jerk. It didn't look as easy as you claim to me.

Ya the manga which the facts of the entire matter lie sure don't show anything right...



You STILL haven't pointed out ANY errors in my reasoning. You're simply trying, unsuccessfully, to discount my premesis. You're also trying to calling my argument weak by saying your, in opinion far weaker, argument is better. And by it being better, mine is "wrong."

Well I have seen many errors in your reasoning, however if we pointed them out it would be such a waste of time since Bud has already done it...multiple times


It's obviously you don't know what relevance is because you misused irrelevant in calling my post irrelevant and by saying your post makes my post irrelevant. 2 incorrect usages of the word. I'm glad you find your ignorance funny.

ig·no·rance[ig-ner-uhns] –noun

1. the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.

Sounds like you used the wrong term too I think you are looking for is "Arrogance"



You're forgetting Naruto faught a ready and willing Oro. Sasuke faught a surprised and weakened Oro. Naruto killed an Akatsuki. Kabuto and Orochimaru both believed Sasuke could not kill Orochimaru and were not proven wrong. Even with your belief that Sasuke could've killed Oro, those point to Sasuke being the underdog.

With bud's posts he has been trying to tell you that we can't possibly know what would happen, because it simply didn't happen.


OK, fine. I'll reword it. Sasuke didn't and seemingly couldn't kill Orochimaru. I won't use the word PROBABLY incorrectly as you did. :p

I will not bother defining that word for you too, simply because you wouldn't understand it anyway.

Jaysee,You are so far beyond being able to understand anything anyone here says that this is just converging on uselessness. The really sad part is that you really believe that you're winning. You are a shocking waste of natural resources — kindly re-integrate yourself into the food-chain.

[fahoumh]

At age 6 kakashi was a jounin
Sorry, to go OT...but from what I've read, I understood that Kakashi was a Chuunin at age 6 and a Jounin at age 13...or am I mistaken?

[JaySee]

Damn, you yourself said that those the staments from the past are irrelevant to the current matter.
I said your examples of the past are irrelevant. Mine were to point out that Sasuke WAS an underdog and to show a pattern of switching the underdog.



You're 'inductively' deducing that sasuke is or isn't the underdog based on how him and naruto fared against oro. But you can't compare 2 characters by comparing them to a 3rd. The only way to compare 2 peoples strenghts is for them to actually fight each other.

You can't inductively deduce. That's an oxymoron. You can inductively reason how 2 people would fair against each other by an opponent in common.



I'm sorry he did get his terms down. Your posts are not relevant to a case due to poor evidence because it had no value in the case in which you discuss

Nope, wrong. You can't make something irrelevant. It either is or isn't. He may counter his first misuse with a misunderstanding, but his use of the word in the 2nd error is undeniable. You're idiotic 2nd sentence is just a "Begging the question" fallacy.



It also showed the amount of pain see had to go against it, with also in that same part disabled her to have him surpass her defence

Irrelevant. This does nothing against the fact that the seal can be defied.



Well I have seen many errors in your reasoning, however if we pointed them out it would be such a waste of time since Bud has already done it...multiple times

I still haven't been shown a single one.



ig·no·rance[ig-ner-uhns] –noun

1. the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.

Sounds like you used the wrong term too I think you are looking for is "Arrogance"

Arrogance - offensive display of superiority or self-importance; overbearing pride. offensive display of superiority or self-importance; overbearing pride.

Nope, I used the correct term. Take an English comprehension course.



With bud's posts he has been trying to tell you that we can't possibly know what would happen, because it simply didn't happen.

That's fine. That has nothing to do with what I've been saying. So you're saying his posts have been irrelevant.



I will not bother defining that word for you too, simply because you wouldn't understand it anyway.

I'll define it for you for Munsu's sake. I'll help relieve him of his ignorance and misunderstanding that PROBABLY is an opinion.

Probably - Most likely; presumably.
in all likelihood; very likely
with considerable certainty; without much doubt
easy to believe on the basis of available evidence



Jaysee,You are so far beyond being able to understand anything anyone here says that this is just converging on uselessness. The really sad part is that you really believe that you're winning. You are a shocking waste of natural resources — kindly re-integrate yourself into the food-chain.

Aah... I see you have the same mind set of if I'm right, you're wrong as Munsu. Grow up.

[Munsu]

I said your examples of the past are irrelevant. Mine were to point out that Sasuke WAS an underdog and to show a pattern of switching the underdog.

but his use of the word in the 2nd error is undeniable

How many times do I have to tell you that I KNOW why you used it because you cleared it up in your post after the post in question.

You clearly are not reading carefully. My post and statements from the past were relevant when I thought you were trying to prove that Sasuke is the underdog NOW, but once you cleared up the misunderstanding of course my statements will become irrelevant to that particular discussion. Once again, stop taking things I'm saying out of context. I think you need some classes of listening for understanding or some shit.



Irrelevant. This does nothing against the fact that the seal can be defied.

The problem is not defying the seal, the problem is that the seal itself handicaps the person against Orochimaru. So it IS relevant.



You can inductively reason how 2 people would fair against each other by an opponent in common.

Yep that's true, but in my opinion and I bet that in people's with some intelligence also, that this should only be true when the opponent and conditions are similar in the examples being compared.

There's simply too many unmeasurable factors to take into account, including the difference of the conditions of the opponent, setting, etc. to actually make a reasonable comparison that would lead you to conclude something as to who is currently the underdog.

[Assassin]

Sorry, to go OT...but from what I've read, I understood that Kakashi was a Chuunin at age 6 and a Jounin at age 13...or am I mistaken?

My mistake. But the argument still stands.

[JaySee]

How many times do I have to tell you that I KNOW why you used it because you cleared it up in your post after the post in question.

You clearly are not reading carefully. My post and statements from the past were relevant when I thought you were trying to prove that Sasuke is the underdog NOW, but once you cleared up the misunderstanding of course my statements will become irrelevant to that particular discussion. Once again, stop taking things I'm saying out of context. I think you need some classes of listening for understanding or some shit.

Umm... OK? I got that already. You've posted this a million times already. You still used irrelevant incorrectly the 2nd time stating your statement/opinion/post whatever you want to call it made mine irrelevant. That's impossible.



The problem is not defying the seal, the problem is that the seal itself handicaps the person against Orochimaru. So it IS relevant.

Relevant to a different arguement. Not mine.



Yep that's true, but in my opinion and I bet that in people's with some intelligence also, that this should only be true when the opponent and conditions are similar in the examples being compared.

There's simply too many unmeasurable factors to take into account, including the difference of the conditions of the opponent, setting, etc. to actually make a reasonable comparison that would lead you to conclude something as to who is currently the underdog.


Here's the problem with yours and others posts against mine. They were all DEDUCTIVE. "I'm right, so you're wrong." I told you multiple times to look up INDUCTIVE and you just fire back with faulty deductive reasoning. That doesn't work. I really don't give a shit if my arguement is right or wrong because it can't be either. It's strong or weak, and you can argue it's weak. I have no problem with that. You guys take it all personal that someone has a different opinion. "WAAH WAAH! You're wrong! I'm right!" :rolleyes: All this blather you've guys been putting has been completely irrelevant. I stated multiple times that I'm arguing inductively. That means no right or wrong. That means there can be multiple arguements and possibilities. One does not necessarily have to negate the other. You guys are just hell-bent on making someone wrong. Which to me was quite amusing. I enjoyed your ignorant arrogance, but your next victims probably wouldn't, so I'm enlightening you. Hopefully next time you guys will actually look up words you try to use and do some enjoyable INDUCTIVE reasoning. Deducing is fine, but it's boring.

By the way... I hope Assassin warned himself, or one of you other moderators warned him about his referrence to that other manga/anime you're not supposed to referrence. :D

[Yukimura]

Why is this shit still going on? Nothing in the last few posts has anything to do with Naruto chapter 346 and seems to have everything to do with JaySee and Bud disagreeing, with random people (including myself now) chiming in. You two will NEVER convince each other of your points.

On the other hand Bud thinks that his points are valid and correct and has defended them. Too bad, JaySee disagrees and has evidence that makes sense to him, so no matter what Bud (or anyone) says JaySee will not agree that his points are wrong, since he appears to have thought them out to himself and they make sense to him. EDIT: Removed hearsay at request of heard party

Though it's not particularly important I want to clarify that I am not taking sides at all and don't care about what either of your arguments are. My point is that this is a just a cold flame war. It seems everyone is trying to be civil and use 'reason' to convince the opposition that they are correct. Guess what, no matter how civil you try to be, a flame war is a flame war, no one can win, and no one will admit having changed their mind once the war has begun. The only good thing that can come out of a flame war is the entertainment value of reading the personal attacks tossed between the combatants. Unfortunately none of these posts are very entertaining since they are too long and I can't find the personal attacks if they exist at all. If you aren't going to be entertaining while arguing then for the love of god please just stop. It's never going to solve anything because there doesn't appear to be a mutual respect between the two of you that would allow you to learn from each other.

[Munsu]

Umm... OK? I got that already. You've posted this a million times already. You still used irrelevant incorrectly the 2nd time stating your statement/opinion/post whatever you want to call it made mine irrelevant. That's impossible.

Again, you're not reading carefully and taking everything out of context. I won't argue about this shit anymore.



Relevant to a different arguement. Not mine.

I actually was the first one to bring the curse seal's effect on Sasuke and you used your statement to counter it, so it is relevant the whole argument.




Here's the problem with yours and others posts against mine. They were all DEDUCTIVE. "I'm right, so you're wrong." I told you multiple times to look up INDUCTIVE and you just fire back with faulty deductive reasoning. That doesn't work. I really don't give a shit if my arguement is right or wrong because it can't be either. It's strong or weak, and you can argue it's weak. I have no problem with that. You guys take it all personal that someone has a different opinion. "WAAH WAAH! You're wrong! I'm right!" :rolleyes: All this blather you've guys been putting has been completely irrelevant. I stated multiple times that I'm arguing inductively. That means no right or wrong. That means there can be multiple arguements and possibilities. One does not necessarily have to negate the other. You guys are just hell-bent on making someone wrong. Which to me was quite amusing. I enjoyed your ignorant arrogance, but your next victims probably wouldn't, so I'm enlightening you. Hopefully next time you guys will actually look up words you try to use and do some enjoyable INDUCTIVE reasoning. Deducing is fine, but it's boring.


You using inductive reasoning is fine. Whatever type of argument and/or reasoning process you're using, the strength and accuracy of your conclusion will be just as accurate as the premises used. The premises you used are very weak and THAT'S ALL I'VE BEEN SAYING, so your conclusion is weak. And yes, I've proven or made a VERY STRONG CASE as to why your premise is flawed and everyone here agrees, but you because you're incapable of understanding. You using INDUCTIVE reasoning doesn't excuse you from using crappy flawed premises to prove your conclusion. The major difference between detuctive and inductive is that the reasoning behind inductive the premises used may support the conclusion, but not necessarily making that conclusion true, while in deductive reasoning if the premises are true then the conclusion should be true. I've never attacked your type of reasoning, but I did attack your premise and I pretty much showed how it's flawed hence making your conclusion flawed. Once again, using inductive reasoning doesn't excuse you for using bad premises to support your conclusion. So, if the premises used are bad then your conclusion is bad.

[JaySee]

Unfortunately none of these posts are very entertaining since they are too long and I can't find the personal attacks if they exist at all. If you aren't going to be entertaining while arguing then for the love of god please just stop. It's never going to solve anything because there doesn't appear to be a mutual respect between the two of you that would allow you to learn from each other.

Well, it's been entertaining to me. :D I think if you read and understand the terms we've been using and know how logic works you'll find it quite amusing. :)



I actually was the first one to bring the curse seal's effect on Sasuke and you used your statement to counter it, so it is relevant the whole argument.

Relevant to your argument, not mine. So again, irrelevant.



The premises you used are very weak and THAT'S ALL I'VE BEEN SAYING, so your conclusion is weak.

I disagree. You've stated multiple times that I'm wrong and my reasoning is poor. Having a, in your opinion, weak premises does not make for bad reasoning. My reasoning based on my premesis is perfectly fine.



yes, I've proven or made a VERY STRONG CASE as to why your premise is flawed and everyone here agrees, but you because you're incapable of understanding.

You can't prove anything. The reason I'm using inductive reasoning is because there can be no definitive answer. Proving and making a strong case are not the same. Also, inductive reasoning by definition does not include all possible premesis and proves nothing. I understand perfectly. You do not seem to understand. Have I once disagreed with your argument? Think about it. Go back and read. NOPE! So you see, you're the one with the misunderstanding. I'm arguing MY ARGUEMENT. You're getting all pissed off because you think I don't understand or am attacking yours. I'm not, and I haven't been. :D



You using INDUCTIVE reasoning doesn't excuse you from using crappy flawed premises to prove your conclusion.

There's nothing wrong with my premesis. They are what they are. They are what I picked for my arguement. The conclusion naturally comes from the premesis I've chosen.



The major difference between detuctive and inductive is that the reasoning behind inductive the premises used may support the conclusion, but not necessarily making that conclusion true, while in deductive reasoning if the premises are true then the conclusion should be true.

Wrong. The difference is that deductive must lay all premesis down and have a definitive answer. In deductive reasoning if the premesis are true and the reasoning is VALID, then the conclusion MUST be true. There's no room for should, IT MUST. You're "should be true" only applies to invalid deduction. Inductive is used to strongly suggest an answer to unanswerable questions. This is why using deductive reasoning in relation to this arguement is completely idiotic. You'll never get an answer. The only one who can give an answer is the author.



I've never attacked your type of reasoning, but I did attack your premise and I pretty much showed how it's flawed hence making your conclusion flawed.

My premesis aren't flawed. For them to be flawed, they must be false. They are not false. There will always be counter arguement to inductive reasoning.

You can go on trying to make me wrong, but you can't. It's not possible. I'm not saying that out of arrogance, I'm saying it from logic and definition.

[Munsu]

Again, you're taking what I'm saying out of context. You're focusing on my choice of words for "should" instead of "must", I didn't give you a well thoughtout definition, just a quickie to get my points across, consider the context of what I'm saying.

You never flat out disagree with my argument, but you don't seem to aknowledge any of the evidence presented that suggests that Sasuke is capable and could've killed Orochimaru, or at the very least strongly suggest that the premise "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru" is false .

So, in my opinion and apparently also of others, I've given stong evidence on why Sasuke is capable of killing Orochimaru. I've also given evidence on why Orochimaru as a common factor is flawed to make a comparison between Sasuke and Naruto, but let's ignore that opinion for now, it was just some added factors to support my points.


There's nothing wrong with my premesis. They are what they are. They are what I picked for my arguement. The conclusion naturally comes from the premesis I've chosen.

A premise of one argument is the conclusion of another. Your reasoning to make Sasuke the underdog is correct. But, you have not provided any evidence/reasoning/premises that would make your premise/conclusion of "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru" true or strongly suggesting it is so. So if you would at least give me something that strongly suggests that "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru" then I would at least aknowledge that there's a very strong possiblity that he's the underdog. So, to me, your premise of "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru" is false because you haven't provided anything that would lead me to believe it, as at the moment me and most others believe that Sasuke could've killed him and can. I don't need prove, I just need strong evidence that suggest that "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru". Don't waste time arguing how you're reasoning is inductive and what not. Provide me with an argument, a convincing one, with why you think "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru". If you can't provide us with that, then we're just forced to believe that your premise is wrong/inaccurate and your conclusion is inaccurate based on the premises used.

In fact I really don't care about your conclusion of Sasuke being an underdog. I'm more interested on what leads you to believe that Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru.


My reasoning based on my premesis is perfectly fine.

Yep, the reasoning based on your premises is perfectly fine. I'm just waiting for your reasoning that makes you believe that the premises themselves are accurate or at least strongly suggest they are true.


Relevant to your argument, not mine. So again, irrelevant.

I think we are having a misunderstading what we mean by argument. At this particular time when I'm using argument I'm meaning the discussion and disagreement we are having, while you seem to mean that your argument is the set of premises that led to your conclusion.


You've stated multiple times that I'm wrong and my reasoning is poor.

Forget I said your reasoning is poor. Let me give you that one. Now dedicate all your energy to give me strong evidence that "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru" and let's focus our argument on that.

If in your next post you don't focus on explaining the accuracy of your premises, I'll delete it and consider it a spam off-topic post. Tired of going around in circles about things we can't agree because I'm talking about one thing and you're talking about another and we're taking things out of context.

[JaySee]

Again, you're taking what I'm saying out of context. You're focusing on my choice of words for "should" instead of "must", I didn't give you a well thoughtout definition, just a quickie to get my points across, consider the context of what I'm saying.

:confused: Do you know what out of context means? Just admit you're mistaken... jeez. I don't know what circumstances could lead you to use SHOULD in place of MUST or in what circumstance that would be acceptable.



You never flat out disagree with my argument, but you don't seem to aknowledge any of the evidence presented that suggests that Sasuke is capable and could've killed Orochimaru, or at the very least strongly suggest that the premise "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru" is false.

That's because I've been too busy trying to correct you from your deductive arguing. Even still, I've been saying that "I'm not right" and that "There is no right or wrong." Not in those words, but a cool-headed rational person could read that in what I've been saying. So since you so desperately need my acknowledgement, (Why the hell you care what I think about you is beyond me...) It is possible that Sasuke can kill Orochimaru. I never said it was false or meant to suggest that it could be. In fact it can't be false unless the author says so.



Your reasoning to make Sasuke the underdog is correct. But, you have not provided any evidence/reasoning/premises that would make your premise/conclusion of "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru" true or strongly suggesting it is so. So if you would at least give me something that strongly suggests that "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru" then I would at least aknowledge that there's a very strong possiblity that he's the underdog. So, to me, your premise of "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru" is false because you haven't provided anything that would lead me to believe it, as at the moment me and most others believe that Sasuke could've killed him and can. I don't need prove, I just need strong evidence that suggest that "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru". Don't waste time arguing how you're reasoning is inductive and what not. Provide me with an argument, a convincing one, with why you think "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru". If you can't provide us with that, then we're just forced to belive that your premise is wrong and your conclusion is inaccurate based on the premises used.

My argument's conclusion has nothing to do with Sasuke being able or unable to kill Orochimaru. The conclusion is that Sasuke can be the underdog. Again you're substituting things that don't belong like your mistaken use of words. Be clear. Stop with this "it's this or this" crap. PICK ONE! If one doesn't apply, don't put it! Me concluding Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru doesn't apply, so don't put it. That's a cheap straw man tactic.

Now, I did say Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru and you pointed that out as a flawed reasoning to which I conceded. I then corrected myself and changed the statement to: Sasuke didn't and seemingly couldn't kill Orochimaru. I'd like to point out that you didn't point out the error in the reasoning. You simply stated it's WRONG because of (insert deductive reasoning here). I'm not sure you even understand why that statement is "wrong." It's "wrong" because it's a deductive statement that is unproveable.

I've already given the evidence pointing towards Sasuke seemingly being unable to kill Oro, but I guess I have to list them again or you'll delete this post so you can have your last word. You'll probably have the last word anyway.

Oro said he can't.
Kabuto said he can't and was shocked at the possibility.
He didn't.
He fell into Oro's Genjutsu (even though he said none of Oro's jutsus work on him AFTER he had already fallen into it for all you deductive arguers)
I'll add, it's obvious he wanted to kill Oro. I think he actually says it, but I don't want to look it up. He does say he doesn't need Oro. That points to him not needing any type of benefit he might get from absorbing him. So it's doubtful to me he wanted to absorb and not actually physically kill him. You can argue that he's just a sadistic mofo. (For all you deductive whiners out there.) However being sadistic hasn't really been shown as part of his character.



I think we are having a misunderstading what we mean by argument. At this particular time when I'm using argument I'm meaning the discussion and disagreement we are having, while you seem to mean that your argument is the set of premises that led to your conclusion.

Yes. That's why I continually said "my argument."



Forget I said your reasoning is poor. Let me give you that one. Now dedicate all your energy to give me strong evidence that "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru" and let's focus our argument on that.

This would've made it a nice and civil discussion, but then you had to add this.



If in your next post you don't focus on explaining the accuracy of your premises, I'll delete it and consider it a spam off-topic post. Tired of going around in circles about things we can't agree because I'm talking about one thing and you're talking about another and we're taking things out of context.


Ask a clear question, I'll give a clear answer. You've just been bouncing everywhere. Don't blame me for the circles.

[Munsu]

:confused: Do you know what out of context means? Just admit you're mistaken... jeez. I don't know what circumstances could lead you to use SHOULD in place of MUST or in what circumstance that would be acceptable.

Because English is not my first language and I don't want to waste my time to pick each and every word carefully. Take the general idea, hence why I suggest you take some listening for understanding classes. At the time I thought "should" was the better word to use as I was thinking of the possiblities of counter arguments that could potentially prove a conclusion wrong.



It is possible that Sasuke can kill Orochimaru. I never said it was false or meant to suggest that it could be. In fact it can't be false unless the author says so.

You seem to suggest that you think he can't kill him since you used that as your premise of your conclusion, but you seem to have revised your premise so lets forget about this statement in particular then.



My argument's conclusion has nothing to do with Sasuke being able or unable to kill Orochimaru.

Now you're simply being stubborn. You gave two premises to conclude that he's the underdog. You said that Naruto could kill Orochimaru and that Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru. How can you possibly say that it has nothing to do with your conclusion? Even with the revised premise, the conclusion is still contingent on Sasuke's ability to kill Orochimaru.

If you conclude that "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru" with a faulty reasoning (we haven't seen your reasoning for this premise/conclusion) then your whole conclusion is inaccurate, based on the premises used. You expect us to believe your conclusion with premises you apparently pulled out of your ass.
But yeah, you have a revised premise that is explained in detail below, now it's up to me to see if I can discredit it in any way.



Now, I did say Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru and you pointed that out as a flawed reasoning to which I conceded. I then corrected myself and changed the statement to: Sasuke didn't and seemingly couldn't kill Orochimaru. I'd like to point out that you didn't point out the error in the reasoning. You simply stated it's WRONG because of (insert deductive reasoning here). I'm not sure you even understand why that statement is "wrong." It's "wrong" because it's a deductive statement that is unproveable.

I've already given the evidence pointing towards Sasuke seemingly being unable to kill Oro, but I guess I have to list them again or you'll delete this post so you can have your last word. You'll probably have the last word anyway.

Oro said he can't.
Kabuto said he can't and was shocked at the possibility.
He didn't.
He fell into Oro's Genjutsu (even though he said none of Oro's jutsus work on him AFTER he had already fallen into it for all you deductive arguers)
I'll add, it's obvious he wanted to kill Oro. I think he actually says it, but I don't want to look it up. He does say he doesn't need Oro. That points to him not needing any type of benefit he might get from absorbing him. So it's doubtful to me he wanted to absorb and not actually physically kill him. You can argue that he's just a sadistic mofo. (For all you deductive whiners out there.) However being sadistic hasn't really been shown as part of his character.

Finally, something with substance. Would try to counter it later, don't have the energy. I at first didn't want to aknowledge your change of premises, mainly because it looked like a copout to me.




This would've made it a nice and civil discussion, but then you had to add this.

Seemed to me that you threw out any civil discussion we may have with the constant uses of uppercase and with all your look this shit up refferences, when most of the time it was a misunderstanding by both of us in their respective cases.



Ask a clear question, I'll give a clear answer. You've just been bouncing everywhere. Don't blame me for the circles.

Of course I'm going to be bouncing everywhere, with you focusing the discussion on things that I'm not particularly interested in, yet doing it in such a condescending manner that a reply was imminent losing my intended purpose of discussion in the process and you missing out on it.

[JaySee]

Because English is not my first language and I don't want to waste my time to pick each and every word carefully. Take the general idea, hence why I suggest you take some listening for understanding classes. At the time I thought "should" was the better word to use as I was thinking of the possiblities of counter arguments that could potentially prove my conclusion wrong.

You never explained the context that English is not your first language and just kept saying I was taking things out of context. However you are just pointing out the fact that you were unsure of the definition, not that it was a mistake due to ignorance of of what should and must mean. You knew what should and must mean.



You seem to suggest that you think he can't kill him since you used that as your premise of your conclusion, but you seem to have revised your premise so lets forget about this statement in particular then.

Yes, that's what I think. Yes, that is a premise. I don't, however, deny that it is a possibility. That's deductive.



Now you're simply being stubborn. You gave two premises to conclude that he's the underdog. You said that Naruto could kill Orochimaru and that Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru. How can you possibly say that it has nothing to do with your conclusion? Even with the revised premise, the conclusion is still contingent on Sasuke's ability to kill Orochimaru.

If you conclude that "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru" with a faulty reasoning (we haven't seen your reasoning for this premise/conclusion) then your whole conclusion is inaccurate, based on the premises used. You expect us to believe your conclusion with premises you apparently pulled out of your ass.

Poor wording on my part. I remember writing that line and deleting it, but I guess I didn't. I thought I rewrote it to say it's not part of my conclusion. I do however go on to say it is a premise. Which means that it indeed has to do with my conclusion.



Finally, something with substance. Would try to counter it later, don't have the energy.

Umm... I already said all that with exception to my addition at the end. I was just repeating myself.



Seemed to me that you threw out any civil discussion we may have with the constant uses of uppercase and with all your look this shit up refferences, when most of the time it was a misunderstanding by both of us in their respective cases.
When I tell people to look up stuff, it's not an insult. I've been a teacher throughout my life in one way or another and I've learned it's better for people to find and figure out answers on their own than me just laying it in front of them. The process and finding and figuring stuff out on your own helps you retain it in memory.

The uppercase is not always used as shouting. I'm not sure how the netiquette on this got corrupted, but I've been using the internet for bulletin boards and chat since before tagging was added. Back then (God I sound old...) we used uppercase for shouting as well as EMPHASIS. I'm emphasising emphasis, not shouting it there. The general rule was if the entire sentence isn't caps, it's not shouting, it's emphasis. I guess I should get in the habit of using bold... :cool: I've been criticized for this @ work by n00bs. :D

[Munsu]

I think I'm going to split the thread with our discussion, as to many of it seems off-topic to the chapter.


You never explained the context that English is not your first language and just kept saying I was taking things out of context. However you are just pointing out the fact that you were unsure of the definition, not that it was a mistake due to ignorance of of what should and must mean. You knew what should and must mean.

Yeah, "should" was a poor word in retospect since I'm defining the term when it really wasn't my whole intention, I got concerned with the possiblity of a counterargument proving a conclusion of deductive reasoning inaccurate so I said "should". So if I were to define deductive reasoning I would surely not use "should", but when I incorporate the possiblity of a conclusion being wrong, "must" seemed too strong. So the context was that I wasn't only trying to define the term, I was also applying possibilites, that do exist, of that conclusion being wrong even when deductively concluded. One has to be open to the possibility that new factors and premises may arise that will make your previous conclusion inaccurate, hence why theories are often disproven and are very hard to turn in to Law.
The other part of what I mean by context, was that I was merely trying to point out that no matter the type of reasoning used, the conclusion is contingent on the accuracy of it's premises (so the accuracy of my definition wasn't as important as aknowleding that both types of reasoning need truthful premises). That even if the premises, in an inductive reasoning, can't prove for certain the conclusion, the premises (by themselves) should be accurate hence why I think that no matter what type of reasoning is used, there's no excuse for having a faulty premise in the argument. So in all, even if the conclusion is uncertain the premises used should be truthful in order to be used in that argument.

About English not being my first language is not an excuse for using a word wrongfully, it was an excuse as to why I didn't use a better word instead. But I think if you consider my intention explained above, I think you may agree that "should" wasn't that bad of a choice.

Umm... I already said all that with exception to my addition at the end. I was just repeating myself.

Yeah, but not in a real organized manner that I could get my grasp on. I still think those premises alone won't convince me of your conclusion, but I'll argue about it later.


When I tell people to look up stuff, it's not an insult. I've been a teacher throughout my life in one way or another and I've learned it's better for people to find and figure out answers on their own than me just laying it in front of them. The process and finding and figuring stuff out on your own helps you retain it in memory.

That's fine. Just keep in mind that I don't like to post about things I don't know about. If I post my opinion or something I either know what it is or have done my research, so when you tell me to look things up it really bothers me because it means that I have to repeat once again what I said, and explain myself once again unncessesarily so it irritates me; plus it's condenscending, if you think I used something wrongfully say you don't understand what I mean, because more often than not it is a misunderstanding and that's usually true with everyone. Believe me when I say that I've been trying alot not to curse or insult, that's how much I wanted an actual discussion, I'll consider my irritation due to a misunderstanding of your intentions.

Anyways the reason I "gave you that one" was because we can't continue that same dicussion that was going in circles here, it was simply off-topic, this wasn't the place to keep discussing it so there was a need to get beyond that argument and focus on something that has to do with the content of Naruto and chapter 346.


Oro said he can't.

Oro also said it was impossible that Sasuke was doing all that in the dimension he created, yet Sasuke was willfully doing as he pleased in there pretty much. Or as you say, you can just say that Oro was simply being arrogant. In fact, Oro himself is astonished on how strong Sasuke has become... Oro even says that him being called genius is pitiful infront of the current Sasuke.


Kabuto said he can't and was shocked at the possibility.

He also seemed shocked at what Sasuke did in the dimension and when he was going to say that Oro got absorbed he seemed shocked too. Him being shocked wasn't only for the possibilty of Sasuke killing him. He also said that Sasuke wouldn't be able to "whistand the ritual", yet Sasuke did so he might also be shocked for that alone.


He didn't.

Yep, I still think that he didn't for some other reason that's unknown to us at the moment. First they were in some sort of dimension that Oro created. We don't know the properties of that dimension or what rules it may have.


He fell into Oro's Genjutsu (even though he said none of Oro's jutsus work on him AFTER he had already fallen into it for all you deductive arguers)

Which Genjutsu are you reffering to? I don't think that the creation of another dimension is genjutsu and if those other attacks occuring on the dimension are Genjutsu I thought that Sasuke took care of them without problem. I don't see how this supports your premise though even if it were true.

Oro apparently created an actual dimension inside of him, genjutsu is only an illusionary technique if I recall correctly.


I'll add, it's obvious he wanted to kill Oro. I think he actually says it, but I don't want to look it up. He does say he doesn't need Oro. That points to him not needing any type of benefit he might get from absorbing him. So it's doubtful to me he wanted to absorb and not actually physically kill him. You can argue that he's just a sadistic mofo. (For all you deductive whiners out there.) However being sadistic hasn't really been shown as part of his character.

Sasuke didn't seem to have knowledge of how the ritual occurred nor of what the seal actually did to him, so when he wanted to kill Oro he wasn't taking into acount what the seal did to him nor having to fight in another dimension. So, in this new dimension for all we know Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru, we don't know what effects the new dimension may have on Sasuke's body if Orochimaru were to die. When he said he didn't need Oro it was meant as he didn't need his teaching anymore, he never made such a statement after Oro started the ritual.

I'll merge my posts later, and JaySee please focus on this post instead of the one above, don't want to go off-topic once again. We can talk about types of reasonings, semantics, etc. some other time.

[JaySee]

Which Genjutsu are you reffering to? I don't think that the creation of another dimension is genjutsu and if those other attacks occuring on the dimension are Genjutsu I thought that Sasuke took care of them without problem. I don't see how this supports your premise though even if it were true.

Oro apparently created an actual dimension inside of him, genjutsu is only an illusionary technique if I recall correctly.

I'm not sure if it would be called a ninjutsu instead. They weren't actually physically moved. I took it as them being in within Oro's mind. Similar to Sasuke going inside Naruto and seeing Kyuubi. It supports my premise because it shows Oro did successfully execute a jutsu on him. Sasuke was also poisoned by Oro.



Sasuke didn't seem to have knowledge of how the ritual occurred nor of what the seal actually did to him, so when he wanted to kill Oro he wasn't taking into acount what the seal did to him nor having to fight in another dimension. So, in this new dimension for all we know Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru, we don't know what effects the new dimension may have on Sasuke's body if Orochimaru were to die. When he said he didn't need Oro it was meant as he didn't need his teaching anymore, he never made such a statement after Oro started the ritual.

Not having knowledge of the ritual to me points that he should not allow the ritual to willfully happen. You don't go into a fight not knowing something like that. Unless you're a totally arrogant bastard, which is a possibility, but Sasuke can't be THAT dumb IMO. It's arguable if Sasuke did or didn't know that the seal would hinder him against Oro. I think Kakashi would know from that female ex-disciple (Still can't recall her name) and would tell Sasuke. If not, he would have some clue of it as it knocked him out when he got it. You can't judge what he meant by not needing Oro. You can have your theory though.

[fahoumh]

My mistake. But the argument still stands.
Oh, I had no intention of dissembling your argument, it was just a minor detail that I wasn't sure about....sorry, I'm a little weird like that.