Painful Deceptions

[Sandldan]

Pretty interesting documentary about 9/11 saying WTC did not fall because of the planes that crashed into the towes but of explosions caused from charges inside the towers, and that no plane ever did crash into pentagon. There has floated pretty many of theese around but this one contains more or less all of the facts.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6323427897709690102

[IFHTT]

Damn this video is long! I'll have to watch it later this afternoon. Looks pretty interesting though, from what I did see.

[XanBcoo]

Here's a similar video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7772696530684663669&q=Loose+Change+2nd+Edition.

I've watched it, but these kind of things don't interest me very much. I don't really know what to think after hearing so many conflicting arguments and views, and don't really care enough to investigate it myself. Still worth watching I suppose.

EDIT: And just to clear things up, I don't mean "I don't care" in that I don't care what happened on 9/11. I mean I'm willing to accept it, and think about the facts presented to me. But I'm not about to get into a heated argument about politics and government conspiracies.

[Mr Squiggles]

I havent watched the movie yet, but in most cases conspiracy theories are like religion in the old days. Before it was: "I dont understand why day turns to night, it must be the gods pulling a flaming chariot across the sky". Now its "I am confused as to what really happened, it must be the communists/nazis/aliens/government". People trying to make sense out of what they don't understand...

[Board of Command]

I've seen Loose Change. It's a pretty interesting documentary and contains a lot of things that just make you think. The cellphones on the plane is a good example. Makes you wonder...

IMO you guys should care about what happened on that day, conspiracy theory or not. 5000 people died after all.

People trying to make sense out of what they don't understand... No, it's more like people are trying to understand why things don't make sense. People that care. The theories are only theories but the hard facts are there. I'm not advocating these theories, I'm just saying people should care to learn about these controversial events. Read two history textbooks from two countries...why are they different?

My point is that 9/11 happened and the evidence doesn't add up. It doesn't matter who is right, it doesn't matter who they're pointing the finger to. It just doesn't make sense, and since the US government is refusing to answer the questions, people get together themselves and investigate.

[IFHTT]

No, it's more like people are trying to understand why things don't make sense when analyzed. People that care.^ And why there are more clues, that possibly indicate that our government was responsible, than there should ever be.

I remember that day, it was an early release day at school and when it happened we had to go out to the football field, because there had also been a bombthreat to our school shortly after the attacks. While we were out there, we heard a loud explosion. Ironically it was a construction crew just under half a mile away blasting rock for an over pass they were building at the time. It's the closest I've been to something like that and the closest I'd ever want to be. Scared the living shit out of us. Now imagine being in NYC when that happened. I can't fathom how awful it must have been.

[Board of Command]

Where was that, Tonton? I was in Ohio when it happened and for the whole day the entire school just watched TV.

[Kraco]

No, it's more like people are trying to understand why things don't make sense. People that care.

I'm sure that's partly true, but true must also be that for many of the people pondering and formulating these theories it's an intellectual game, a puzzle. The same type of people can also write the most intriguing detective stories and murder mysteries. However, it's not disrespect for what happened. Human mind just works that way, for some people more so than for others.

[IFHTT]

Where was that, Tonton? I was in Ohio when it happened and for the whole day the entire school just watched TV.
Hot Springs, Arkansas. We were watching tv that day too until we were told to go outside due to a bombthreat, which was probably just some stupid kid being a douche.

[woofcat]

So far i am about 20ish minutes in to it. It's a good video. I do indeed belive that the USA knew what was going down. I don't know if they planned it but there is a shit pile more eviedence that the USA knew about it and there is about Iraq people.

[Board of Command]

So far i am about 20ish minutes in to it. It's a good video. I do indeed belive that the USA knew what was going down. I don't know if they planned it but there is a shit pile more eviedence that the USA knew about it and there is about Iraq people.
Last time I checked, Iraq had nothing to do with it. They were after Afghanistan for a while, then just quietly abandoned that subject altogether.

[IFHTT]

^ That's another suspicious act by US. We just sort of slowly crept our way to iraq, making look like the whole Afghanistan terrorism thing was just a diversion from the real goal of Iraq... This stuff gets me mad... I'll be the first one to say, we had no business heading into Iraq. If we were so pissed at OBL we should have stayed in Afghanistan and searched for his ass. These are things that make me want to call BS... Damn shady government.

[masamuneehs]

The Official 9/11 Investigation Report (http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/index.html)

I've yet to watch this video, but I have read the report. The US itself admits that there were enough signs ahead of time that were known by the government where something should have been prevented.

The problem is this: All of this information was spread amongst dozens of databases and hundreds (if not more) of officials, buried amidst mountains of other information.

A nation does not function like a human being. A person, if they saw all of those signs (and had the memory and time to remember them all...), would probably figure out what was going on and been able to do something. But an entire nation taking any critical action like 'shoot those planes down' or 'on this day don't let X, Y, Z passengers board 1, 2, 3 planes' isn't easy to come to, it's what we call 'bureaucratic reaction delay'.

After class today I'll sit down and watch this video and tell ya what I think, but also remember this:
Vision in hindsight is always 20/20.

edit: as for the above posts on leaving Afghanistan for Iraq - umm it's called 'redeployment' and when you're changing from attacking a nation like Afghanistan (basically capture Kabul and one or two major cities and maintain light patrols of the mountains for victory) to attacking a nation like Iraq (clearly defended military borders, less rugged terrain, seperated objectives to capture and defend, split factions, organized (and much larger) military) you're obviously going to have to make a bigger deal out of the latter than the former.

also, there was more hype about 'why we're going into Iraq' because the initial rationale was not as crucial to 'the national interest' and suspect (still is) to much criticism. Hence the administration desired to beef up and defend their declared cause for war in Iraq. The fact that that war has also proved more costly, longer and it's initial 'motives' still called into question is why you hear about it more.

(I'm not defending the invasion of Iraq, that's for sure.)

9/11 ---> Al Qaida ---> Afghanistan (clear and easy path to follow)
9/11 ---> Al Qaida ---> Iraq? (not enough info to go to Iraq for that cause)
9/11 ---> Heightened sense of paranoia/fear of external threats ---> Saddam Hussein/organized and sometiems secretive military ----> Iraq
(NOW we're talking about a 'rational' thought process. I put rational in quotes because 'heightened sensitivity to external threats' is subjective, while purely rational and logical processes only include objective reasoning. I personally feel it was an overreaction, and a costly one at that...)

[Assertn]

Feeling insecure rocks.

[masamuneehs]

well i will say that after watching this video i do have new doubts as to what may have exactly happened on that day.

but i still don't buy into the theory that it was deliberately done by the US government. Honestly I don't have enough info to make any kind of judgment call at all.

[Aramis]

I'm not american but saw many of these videos anyway, quite interesting.

Don't know whether US goverment was behind the whole thing or if they're just shamelessly taking advantage of it, but either way they're rotten bastards :cool:

[Mizuchi]

Holy f**king shit. Why doesn't anybody at a Bush's speech ask the question about where the plane parts went? This scares the shit out of me, and I would like to do a presentation in school about it but don't know if I should because of fear.

[Board of Command]

Don't do this for your project.

[XanBcoo]

I would like to do a presentation in school about it but don't know if I should because of fear.
Blame it on Kyle. It's always the Jews...

[Mizuchi]

Don't do this for your project.

I know I probably shouldn't, but do you know what would happen if I did?

[Assertn]

I know I probably shouldn't, but do you know what would happen if I did?
If the response you're expecting is:
"FBI knocks down your door and all records of your existence dissappear"

I'd be sorry to dissappoint, but the more likely outcome would be:
"The girl in the 3rd row starts to cry"

[samsonlonghair]

Fools!!!
It wasn't bush who knocked down the towers; it was Zionists operating out of Area 51 to distract us all from the second Bay of Pigs invasion in the Gulf of Tonkin!

Err...something like that.

[ChaosK]

Now imagine being in NYC when that happened. I can't fathom how awful it must have been.
I suppose I can come closest to answering that in saying it was scary shit (I live on Long Island, that tiny strip of land right under New York. Our school sent everyone home within 20minutes of that happening. The details were foggy (to the students at least at the time) but we had cops accompany our buses so everyone knew something was going down. When I got home, about an hour later my parents arrived. My dad used to work at the building across the street from it and when someone with a window view told him what happened, they thought he was joking, until they saw the place going up in flames. Now I've seen Loose Change and I did a conspiracy report (in my senior year of high school). I'm not sure what the first video in the thread says but the fall of the twin towers was due to planes. The pentagon is another story. A cruise missle would make more sense to the damage caused in the pentagon.

[Mizuchi]

I'm not sure what the first video in the thread says but the fall of the twin towers was due to planes.

When the plane hit the south tower, the top of it fell off. After the top fell off, there was no pressure being placed on the enourmously strong building, yet it still collapsed, and all the floors collapes at the same rate, not at a rate which should've decreased with each floor. The fall of the twin towars was not due to planes.

[Ryllharu]

Loose Change is the biggest crock of shit ever made, and here's why.

Their "evidence" is largely zoomed in screenshots of 9/11 footage an anecdotes from people on or shortly after 9/11/2001. Now, these people would be freaked out and panicked, like most Americans were for a week or two. Anyone who has a law degree, is in law enforcement, or psychology will tell you witness accounts are one of the least reliable sources, especially in a traumatic experience.

Not once to the two who made the film actually find an expert to correlate the data with, or they reply that they "couldn't reach them" because no experts in specific fields take them seriously. They take one photo and make huge assumptions, rather than looking at the 50+ photographs that show the exact opposite of what they've said, or the 20 reports that show how the people who died were identified.

As a Mechanical Enginnering major, the WTC "demolition" disgusts me. I've taken an entire course on fatigue and failure. There's no need for demolition, steel loses nearly all of its engineering strength at about 600 degrees F. It's called Creep. Creep (wiki) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creep_%28deformation%29)
Would you honestly believe a millions of pounds of building could be held up on what becomes equivalent to a series of toothpicks? And if anything, more weight on each consecutive floor means they should have collapsed faster if anything, not slower. Stress equals force over cross sectional area. The area never changes, but the weight does. The stress would grow greater, and the building would fall faster. This is chapter 1 Statics and Dynamics stuff.

Instead of facts, they use impressions. Instead of experts, they use anecdotes. Instead of analysis, they use conjecture.

If you really believe in the facts of Loose Change, I urge you to read The Loose Change Guide (http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html). It goes nearly point for point in the film, countering nearly every statement made in the entire film with actual facts. It's a multipart guide, and a very long read, but well worth it.

After that, watch their debate against the Popular Mechanics editors who debunked them. Part 1 of 5 (rest are on the Youtube sidebar). (http://youtube.com/watch?v=stVmEmJ666M) Their attitude and blatant lack of manners infuriates me. They are on a very liberal channel, so they get to act like children, who interrupt, heckle, laugh and shake their heads when the PM guys talk. The narrator of the film has the demeanor of a 5 year old. At one point, Dylan Avery (the creator of LC) actually tells him to chill out because he realizes that his friend is making them look like assholes. Credibility is not instilled by acting with the behavior of young playground children. "No, I'm calling you a liar!" (direct quote from the debate).

Trust in science and facts, not conspiracy theory.

[Mizuchi]

@Ryllharu

Explain the pentagon then.

[Ryllharu]

You gotta be kidding me. You didn't even read the link that counters every point those two idiots made.

Once again: Loose Change Guide Section II: AA Flight 77 and the Pentagon (http://www.loosechangeguide.com/lcg2.html)

Read that first.

I know people are lazy, so I'll try to summarize. They claim there is no debris and that it becomes an unlikely story that the jet fuel vaporized the 757. The only problem is they looked at only footage from newcasts, and not any pictures. The site provides this link (http://debris.0catch.com/). Hmm, looks like wreckage to me. They get various facts wrong (engine manufacturer, Skywarriors don't use JT8D engines, USAF A3's are all accounted for, wrong engine parts, etc). Their "experts" during that clip wrote an article that according to the Guide:
Are you referring to this [article] (written by Tom Flocco and featuring Schwarz) in which a 12-foot exit hole made by the landing gear on the INSIDE of the Pentagon is described as the ENTRY hole on the OUTSIDE that the ENTIRE PLANE made?
Moving on, The Hole:
LC loves to claim the entry hole is a 16 foot hole. They use this picture of the building with a red overlay of a 757, (you must know what I'm talking about). The only problem, is that there's a ton of smoke in the image they choose to use, so not only can you hardly see the hole they are talking about, half of the building is obscured. There is a 90 foot hole in the outer ring, not 16 ft. LC is shocked that the plane could go through several rings of reinforced concrete. The problem with that claim? The ground floor of the Pentagon is an "open" floor plan, with no extra reinforced walls to penetrate. LC mentions that large wire spools are still in place. What makes them idiots here? They do not show a single image of those same spools beforehand. The truth? They have no idea what the spools looked like! The exit hole was made by the landing gear, there are tons of picutres of it. The nose doesn't have anything to do with it.

Seriously, read the whole link. It's a great debunker of all of the pentagon garbage.

Lastly, a bit of knowledge from my college education. Let's assume that a plane slammed into a side of a reinforced concrete building. Concrete is used to make to make bridges and such because of it's material property. Concrete is highly resistant to compression. When we reinforce concrete, we add metal rebar to it to increase it's capacity for tension, because concrete is weak to tension. To recap, concrete is good on compression and metal is good for tension.

Plane slams into building, the forces are way more complicated than that, but we'll call it mostly compression. Building = strong against forces. Plane = weak against forces. Which one do you think will be shredded more?

[Apraxhren]

@Ryllharu

Explain the pentagon then.

I believe that has already been done many times, e.g. The 911 report (http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/index.html) and The Pentagon Building Performance Report (http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build03/PDF/b03017.pdf); conclude Flight 77 a 757 impacted the Pentagon. See the truth isn't as entertaining but based in facts, and they wonder why more children aren't interested in science, uneducated conspiracies are far more entertaining. Here are some more sources that through actual investigations and scientific practices conclude that you are ridicules.

Popular Mechanics: Debunking the 9/11 Myths (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=1)
An exhaustive list of eyewitness who saw a plane hit the Pentagon. (includes sources) (http://www.geocities.com/someguyyoudontknow33/witnesses.htm)

Really before you believe other people's selective opinions actually read the material they are trying to disprove as often it has already made them look foolish and/or consult another opinion as basing your belief on the selective arguments of one side is rather silly.