Ichigo's hollow powers

[el_boss]

Since the episode discussion threads are being flooded with theories about this, I think it's time it got a thread of it's own to relieve some pressure. Please feel free to add more theories and dismiss or validate other theories.

So far the main theories are:

1. He got it from the pit when he almost died/turned in to a hollow.
2. Rukia trasfered it to him when she gave him shinigami powers.
3. He is a reincarnation of Kaien which was turned in to a hollow before he died.
4. His own shinigami were a hollow hybrid to begin with and got unlocked along with his shinigami powers in the pit.
5. He inherited it from his mother and/or father.
6. Urahara advertedly put Ichigo in the pit knowing it would make him into a hybrid hollow.
7. The hougyoku affected Ichigo's own shinigamai powers when he was around Rukia not when she transferred her powers.
8. A combination of 3 and 5. One of Ichigo's ancestors is the reincarnation of Kaien.
9. A modification of 1. The hollow Ichigo turned up to stop him from becoming a full hollow so he wouldn't lose his host.
10. An extension of 4. The hollow couldn't take over because Rukia's powers where somehow surpressing him.

My theory:
The hougyoku within Rukia didn't affect Ichigo directly in the shinigami transfer. Since they were Rukia's powers they might have gotten immune to the hougyoku or something. But maybe Ichigo's own hidden powers were more susceptible and when he spent time with Rukia they gor more and more corrupted. Much like the way Ichigo leaked powers to others he might have absorbed the hollow powers from Rukia. So in the pit when he almost died the hollow came out and saved him, like it has done numerous times since then.

Optional addon to my theory:
Rukia was also very close to Kaien and spent alot of time with him. And if Ichigo is the reincarnation of Kaien or somehow otherwise connected to him, this might have some significance as well. Maybe because the soul got exposed in both the spirit world and the real world it had some kind of extra influence.

[heero]

I'll just go with the fact that his chain got eaten away and became a hollow but at the same time, he released his sword to become a shinigami. After words, he ripped off his mask keeping his hollowself inside him which explains why he sort of have 2 identities. simple theory but it makes sense to me.

[XanBcoo]

I agree with heero. That theory seems to have the most evidence, and is what I've been arguing for in the other discussion. Hollows are created when someone's chain is eaten away, not brought to the rescue.

The Rukia theory could be true, but there's no evidence I can see to assume it is.

[el_boss]

With that logic you might as well say that there is no evidence for your theory (number 1). I think that theory 4 (which could have been caused by my theory) has as much "evidence" as 1. We have just seen that Ichigo was in the pit and came out as a hollow-like shinigami, we don't actually know what happened. I would go as far to say that none of the theories have any evidence, at most you could call them clues or hints.

[Kraco]

Let me add also here one wild theory (from my post in the ep discussion thread):
6. What Ichigo went through in the pit, under the shop, wasn't actually a standard method to awake his shinigami powers but the method to create the shinigami / hollow hybrid. Urahara did this knowingly (the bastard). The rest of the folk knew nothing about it.

[Dionysos]

3-5 are bad theories...

3. I really would hate Bleach if it would be true
4. I dont think any person has hollow power from the beginning

Im not sure with 2. could be, i thought so too for a time, but actually i think the first theory is the best.

[DarthEnderX]

I used to think it was the first one. But after seeing this weeks episode, I believe it's number 2 now.

[FrogKing]

@Kraco: I really like this idea...We have no idea how Urahara made the first hougyoku, but we do know how a hollow is made and curiously his test involves the use/discovery of shinigami powers to overcome the transformation. It isn't hard to imagine that his first successful creation involve the (I can't remember what it is called) chain being eatin' then having a strong enough soul to overcome it. Maybe the hougyoku was a 'test-tube' creation and Ichigo was the first 'in vivo' creation (i.e. he was putting the hollow/shinigami creation to a practical situation). Many scientists attempt the same type of experiments: test a model at the bench, then apply the model to a controlled in vivo situation.

I think the why did Ichigo passed/survived the transformation is the more interesting question. Is it because of Rukia? Is it because of is lineage (mom and dad)? Or is it because he is a reincarnated version of former SS vice-captain? Everybody has a reason for their favorite theory, but why can't it be a little of all of them? Aizen certainly had a very difficult time trying to make a hybrid. Maybe Ichigo is has the perfect combination of nurture and Nature to be able to make the transformation. The hougyoku in Rukia could have influenced Ichigo's powers, his mother and father could have attributed to him as well [evidence: siblings have higher-than-average reiatsu, father seems pretty strong physically although this has no bearing on shinigami powers but his kids are always saying how he is strong even for an old man, his mother has instilled an incredible will to live and to protect others), and lastly he does certainly look (and sometimes act/speak) like Kaien. Also (I know it's a big stretch), but the guard on his bankai form is a swastika which in some religious lore means reincarnation and/or return.

I guess the bottom line is that becoming a hollow/shinigami is by no means an easy feat, but perhaps Ichigo is the unique, (insert anime-hero) individual who was/is a successful hybrid. I think what Urahara did was wrong (he could have most certainly sent the hollow to Ichigo in order to catalyze the introduction of Rukia and Ichigo) by experimenting with Ichigo, but I think that it worked.

Btw, for those who think that Ichigos hollow side only comes from Rukia, I think Xan stated in another post that Byakuya severed those powers in his flash step attack in their first encounter.

My 2 cents...

[masamuneehs]

I go with the idea that he is at least some kind of reincarnation of Kaien Kukaku.

The guys just look too much alike to not have something to do with each other. That and they're both Rukias love interest, it just feels set up for it to be like that.
However I feel that Ichigo's initial powers (the ones he had on his own) are also contributed to by his mother, since his two sisters have power too.

I also thought that Urahara put the hougyoku into the Gigai (False Body) that he lent to Rukia AFTER she gave her powers to Ichigo. So that wouldn't be it either...

And, as for the almost-Hollow incident in Urahara's Training Pit, I believe that was a manifestation of Ichigo's Hollow nature (already in him from Kaien) trying to take over, but the Shinigami part won out because Ichigo is a "good/positive spirit" and not a negative/Hollowish spirit. I just think it was the first time that the Hollow nature tried to take advantage of Ichigo's weakness/shortcoming.

[ChaosK]

1. He got it from the pit when he almost died/turned in to a hollow.

theres my theory, he turned into a hollow there, and ever since that he had it, had it really been from rukia or kaien it should've appeared before.

[Carnage]

I still think hes the reincarnation of Kaien, but i think the reason behind the hollow is something along the lines of reason 5. Maybe it wasnt his mother, but his father. Maybe hes just special. Something like thati/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

[anphorus]

My spin on the kaien thing is as follows, copy pasted from another topic:



Originally posted by: anphorus

It seems that spiritual powers in humans is quite rare. Aside from Ichigo (and his family, which I think may have been caused by Ichigo's spirit leakage. I think it's possible this still happened when he was young, just at a much slower rate which would require long term exposure. Or his mother, even but that only further proves my point), Don Kanoji is the only other human with natural any spirit power we've seen. (And he was pretty weak, and quite famous because of it). So even if Ichigo is a reincarnation of Kaien, that doesn't mean that that has anything to do with his awesome strength; otherwise there'd be a whole bunch of reincarnated shinigami's walking around with insane spirit levels.

Same thing with the whole hollow thing.

Plus, when a shingami dies, they are reincarnated, but when a hollow is slain using a zanpaktou, they move on to soul society

[el_boss]

Originally posted by: anphorus
So even if Ichigo is a reincarnation of Kaien, that doesn't mean that that has anything to do with his awesome strength; otherwise there'd be a whole bunch of reincarnated shinigami's walking around with insane spirit levels.

Plus, when a shingami dies, they are reincarnated, but when a hollow is slain using a zanpaktou, they move on to soul society
That makes sence, but Kaien is the one of the few (if not only) shinigamis to die as a "hollow". As you put it "when a shingami dies, they are reincarnated" isn't it possible that the hollow part of kaien tagged along and got reincarnated as well. That would mean that Ichigo was a hollow hybrid to begin with and thus able to extend beyond the barriers of a normal shinigami. This also somewhat explains his insane strenght.

[heero]

Originally posted by: anphorus

Plus, when a shingami dies, they are reincarnated, but when a hollow is slain using a zanpaktou, they move on to soul society

hmm I thought when hollow dies, they disappear forever instead of going to soul society. no?



Originally posted by: el_boss
5. He inherited it from his mother.


why can't it be his father?

[el_boss]

Originally posted by: heero
hmm I thought when hollow dies, they disappear forever instead of going to soul society. no?


Originally posted by: el_boss
5. He inherited it from his mother.
why can't it be his father?
That's when they are killed by a non shinigami, for example a Quincy.

Yeah, why not his father?

[XanBcoo]

Originally posted by: masamuneehs
And, as for the almost-Hollow incident in Urahara's Training Pit, I believe that was a manifestation of Ichigo's Hollow nature (already in him from Kaien) trying to take over, but the Shinigami part won out because Ichigo is a "good/positive spirit" and not a negative/Hollowish spirit. I just think it was the first time that the Hollow nature tried to take advantage of Ichigo's weakness/shortcoming.
Ichigo's Hollow and Kaien's Hollow are too dissimilar to be related at all. Different masks, powers, voices, etc. I think the two have nothing to do with eachother. The Hollow we have seen in Ichigo seems to have been created as his chain was being eaten away (this is how Hollows come in to existence). Also, Kaien's full name is "Shiba Kaien"


Originally posted by: el_boss
With that logic you might as well say that there is no evidence for your theory (number 1)
I listed plenty of evidence in the episode discussion, but I'm honestly too tired to copy and paste it all. If you still need proof though, I'll do it when I get back.

Kraco and Frogking, I'm starting to consider theory number 6. That one makes very good sense, and I wouldn't be suprised if the truth were something along those lines.

[el_boss]

Originally posted by: XanBcoo


Originally posted by: el_boss
With that logic you might as well say that there is no evidence for your theory (number 1)
I listed plenty of evidence in the episode discussion, but I'm honestly too tired to copy and paste it all. If you still need proof though, I'll do it when I get back.
Please do, post your "evidence" that is. This is after all where it belongs. What I mean't though was that nothing so far can really be viewed as evidence (regarding Ichigo's hollow powers), and as I said it should be accounted for as clues or hints.

On a different subject: I don't remember really, but was Ichigo ever near death before the pit? He had some rough fights, but he never was about to recieve a killing blow, right? Maybe his hollow side was there all along but never got a chanse to come out.

[Munsu]

Fighting Byakuya and Renji was not threatening enough?

[anphorus]

Budweineken is on the money. After Byakuya's attack Ichigo was mortally wounded, if Urahara hadn't shown up it wouldn't have been long before Ichigo was a goner.

Slightly Off Topic musing: What would actually happen if Ichigo were to be killed. In his ordinary body, would he become an ordinary soul waiting to be sent to soul sociect or would he just turn into his shinigami form? If he died in soul form, would he be reincarnated, even if his body was intact? I don't think theres any way to answer this though. Just something I'm curious about.

[Assassin]

Originally posted by: el_boss


Originally posted by: heero
hmm I thought when hollow dies, they disappear forever instead of going to soul society. no?


Originally posted by: el_boss
5. He inherited it from his mother.
why can't it be his father?
That's when they are killed by a non shinigami, for example a Quincy.

Yeah, why not his father?


well, the father thing has no merit since his father is the one person who has no rietsu at all. so unless its some cruel joke by mother nature, where all his fathers' possible rietsu was drained and transfered to him instead, then its really not a very likely theory.

Even with his mother, i dont think she had any rietsu herself. so theres no reason why she would have anything to do with his powers

[XanBcoo]

Ok, here's what I thought was the most probable explanation for Ichigo's Hollow powers. This is not so much "evidence" for the fact that he got the powers from the pit, but proof that they probably didn't come from Rukia and the Hogyouku.

Hollows are born when one's chain of fate is eaten away (Causing the hole to appear in the chest). We saw this happen with Ichigo in episode 20-something. The chain reaches his body and he is covered by the mask substance. As far as we've been told, this is how Hollows are created and come into existence. If I remember correctly, Urahara and his crew are saying things like "is he becoming a hollow?" Here is another point I brought up earlier:



Ichigo got his powers from the pit, because as Zangetsu himself said, Ichigo has his own shinigami powers that Byakuya didn't sense (making Ichigo special regardless of Rukia, possibly due to his being Kaien's reincarnation-or whatever). Byakuya only assumed he had the power Rukia gave him, and took that away. Ichigo was then told to find his own powers among all those boxes. He did so as he was transforming into a hollow, thus his current condition.
Note: Shinigami powers are inherent, yet hollow powers are created by reasons stated above. As far as can be told, the Hougyoku separates the boundary between shinigami and hollow. It does NOT create pure hollows. Rather, turns shinigami and Hollows alike into hybrids. So it seems completely illogical to me to say that Ichigo's hollow is a result of this fusion device sealed within someone else.

I think FrogKing had a good point too:


we do know how a hollow is made and curiously [urahara's] test involves the use/discovery of shinigami powers to overcome the transformation. It isn't hard to imagine that his first successful creation involve the (I can't remember what it is called) chain being eatin' then having a strong enough soul to overcome it. Maybe the hougyoku was a 'test-tube' creation and Ichigo was the first 'in vivo' creation (i.e. he was putting the hollow/shinigami creation to a practical situation). Many scientists attempt the same type of experiments: test a model at the bench, then apply the model to a controlled in vivo situation.
Now, saying that Rukia gave Ichigo the powers in the initial transfer, you would have to assume that he's had the hollow-powers ever since episode one. Yet nowhere before the pit incident did we see any emergence of any Hollow type activity or powers in Ichigo. It was only after that point that the Hollow became an issue. This is not proof, it just strongly supports theory #1. Even in life-or-death situations, such as his encounter with Byakuya/Renji, he has not used the Hollow powers. One could say he used it to escape the pit (a true life-or-death situation), but remember he was only in that situation BECAUSE he was being turned into a hollow. He escaped by his own means. Quoting myself again:


We know how Ichigo came out of the pit, and it wasn't because of a Hollow, it was because he tapped into his own shinigami powers and was able to escape (though being halfway turned in to a hollow at that point).
Again, nowhere before the pit incident did Ichigo ever show any signs of having a hollow inside of him, or display any Shinigami/Hollow hybrid powers. Going off of Aizen's current (episode 61) explaination, it seems that one is able to surpass a Shinigami's limitations only by becoming a hybrid of Shinigami and Hollow. This would mean that both personalities are being used (such as in Ichigo's fight against Zaraki, and then more pronounced against Byakuya), when the "limit is broken".

[el_boss]

@Xan: All of that are really good points, but I don't really see it as proof. It's more like what we have seen so far. Most of that is also how it is normally (except what frogking said), and there is nothing normal about Ichigo's situation. I like to think that it's more to this than just what we have seen so far.


Originally posted by: Budweineken
Fighting Byakuya and Renji was not threatening enough?
Yeah, but Byakuya ruined Ichigos shit in that fight, so he had no shinigami/hollow powers that could save him. And also Rukia stopped Byakuya from throwing the killing blow.


Originally posted by: Assassin
well, the father thing has no merit since his father is the one person who has no rietsu at all. so unless its some cruel joke by mother nature, where all his fathers' possible rietsu was drained and transfered to him instead, then its really not a very likely theory.
Even with his mother, i dont think she had any rietsu herself. so theres no reason why she would have anything to do with his powers
As someone said, if every reincarnated shinigami had powers then there would be a shit load of people with spirit powers. Maybe you can have the powers but they don't manifest themselves.

*new theory* Well it's more like a addon/merge to theory 3 and 5. If you think about it, we don't really know when Kaien actually dies. I mean it could have been like a hundred years ago. So what I'm thinking is that maybe Ichigo isn't the reincarnation of Kaien but his mother or father or even further down the line.

[Munsu]

Originally posted by: el_boss
Yeah, but Byakuya ruined Ichigos shit in that fight, so he had no shinigami/hollow powers that could save him. And also Rukia stopped Byakuya from throwing the killing blow.


And this matters why? All Byakuya did was destroy Rukia's powers inside Ichigo, so that means whatever happens from then on have nothing to do with with the powers Rukia gave Ichigo... So you can conclude that Ichigo's Hybrid form had nothing to do with Rukia either...

[el_boss]

Originally posted by: Budweineken


Originally posted by: el_boss
Yeah, but Byakuya ruined Ichigos shit in that fight, so he had no shinigami/hollow powers that could save him. And also Rukia stopped Byakuya from throwing the killing blow.
And this matters why? All Byakuya did was destroy Rukia's powers inside Ichigo, so that means whatever happens from then on have nothing to do with with the powers Rukia gave Ichigo...
Exactly because Buykuya destroyed Ichigos powers, so the hollow couldn't come out.


So you can conclude that Ichigo's Hybrid form had nothing to do with Rukia either...
Now you are just contradicting yourself. This is exactly why we can assume that Rukia's powers within Ichigo also could have had a hollow nature.

And maybe if Buykuya was about to kill Ichigo for reals, his hollow would have been triggered. He just might have needed a real life or death situation to activate his powers.

[Munsu]

You are missing the point completely...


Inside Ichigo there have always been two powers... one that he has had since he was born, and another one that he got from Rukia... Throughout the whole first half of the series he was using Rukia's which ended up being destroyed by Byakuya... Hence everything that happens after that has nothing to do with Rukia...

The reason he used the pit was to awaken his other power, the one he was born with... So you can conclude that either his hybrid form was caused by the pit or that his hybrid form was hybrid since his birth...

So, I'm not contradicting myself, and I can't explain myself any better...

And I'll say it now, you saying that "maybe if Byakuya was about to kill Ichigo for reals" is the biggest BS you've come up with in a while...

[el_boss]

Originally posted by: Budweineken
You are missing the point completely...

Inside Ichigo there have always been two powers... one that he has had since he was born, and another one that he got from Rukia... Throughout the whole first half of the series he was using Rukia's which ended up being destroyed by Byakuya... Hence everything that happens after that has nothing to do with Rukia...

The reason he used the pit was to awaken his other power, the one he was born with... So you can conclude that either his hybrid form was caused by the pit or that his hybrid form was hybrid since his birth...

So, I'm not contradicting myself, and I can't explain myself any better...

And I'll say it now, you saying that "maybe if Byakuya was about to kill Ichigo for reals" is the biggest BS you've come up with in a while...
I'm not missing the point at all, I totally get what your saying. You are the one that's misunderstanding me, I'm just saying that it's possible not probable that there's more to it.

What part do you mean is BS? Byakuya was in fact not about to kill Ichigo, if he was then Ichigo would have obviously been dead now or turned in to a hollow right there. As I said, Ichigo just might have need a real life or death situation. As you might remember Ichigo survived (because Rukia stopped Byakuya) and went to train with Urahara.

*New theory* The hollow Ichigo appeared in the pit to stop Ichigo from becoming a full hollow. If the chain would have been eaten the hollow Ichigo might have never had a chance to take over his body.

[Munsu]

That last theory looks interesting, I would have to rewatch the episode...

How can fighting Byakuya not be a real life or death situation, he was fucked up... and he didn't survived because Byakuaya spared him, he mainly survived cause Urahara treated him... It's not like the hollow inside Ichigo was saying, "Wait, Byakuya is toying with me, he wont kill Ichigo..." There's no way he could've known that... This is of course hypothetically saying that he indeed was inside of Ichigo at that moment, which I don't agree with...


And you are indeed misunderstanding me...

You said that Byakuya cutting Ichigo's power prevented the hollow from coming out... Guess what, that's wrong because what was cut was Rukia's powers inside him, and with all the evidence I have presented in my posts you can see that it's of no importance since Rukia's powers inside of him had nothing to do with Ichigo's hollow form...

[el_boss]

Originally posted by: Budweineken
How can fighting Byakuya not be a real life or death situation, he was fucked up... and he didn't survived because Byakuaya spared him, he mainly survived cause Urahara treated him... It's not like the hollow inside Ichigo was saying, "Wait, Byakuya is toying with me, he wont kill Ichigo..." There's no way he could've known that... This is of course hypothetically saying that he indeed was inside of Ichigo at that moment, which I don't agree with...

And you are indeed misunderstanding me...

You said that Byakuya cutting Ichigo's power prevented the hollow from coming out... Guess what, that's wrong because what was cut was Rukia's powers inside him, and with all the evidence I have presented in my posts you can see that it's of no importance since Rukia's powers inside of him had nothing to do with Ichigo's hollow form...

Ok, I see now where I misunderstood you, sorry mate. I mixed up some of the facts when I said "Yeah, but Byakuya ruined Ichigos shit in that fight, so he had no shinigami/hollow powers that could save him". I see now that some of my statements must have looked rather wierd. Forget that I said that and look at my new theory instead. But hypothetically Rukia could have also have had hollow powers they just didn't get to manifest themselves. Because she gave away her powers in episode 1 and Ichigo lost her powers against Byakuya. (You don't need to tell me that this is far-fetched, I am already aware of that).

*new theory* In other fights where the hollow has aided Ichigo there has always been a defining moment where he would have died if nothing was done. Also maybe Ichigo himself has to have a very strong desire for something to save him and basically admit that he has lost.

Maybe the hollow Ichigo was in fact observing the first fight against Byakuya, but he decided not to help because he wanted Ichigo to lose his Rukia powers and get weakened. This however requires that the hollow must have calculated that Byakuya was going for Ichigo's link, but I think it's safe to assume that he could make such an analysis since he is extremely gifted. Rukia's powers might have been the thing that was surpressing the hollow from fully taking over Ichigo's body. So the hollow was waiting for Byakuya's final blow so that he could take over Ichigo's body. But as we know Rukia interrupted this.

[Carnage]

I just watched ep. 61 last night. Youll find the answers there.

[el_boss]

Originally posted by: God#2
I just watched ep. 61 last night. Youll find the answers there.
Answer for what? Please do elaborate.

[Carnage]

nevermind. I just rewatched the episode, it doesnt really completely explain how ichigo got his powers.i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif I was just thinking though, since Aizens so strong and it seems like nobody but Yamaji has a chance of even touching him, well, Aizen said the wall of power between the shinigami and Hollows will be broken down. So maybe Ichigo will transcend Zangestu to a level higher than Bankai.

[Assassin]

i swear, more then half of you must be on crack. Where do you keep getting these new theories from?

OMG NEWTHEORY!!!1: hollow ichigo is the next evolution of the human race!

Corallory to new theory: hollow ichigo will team up with magneto who is infact aizens brother and they will kill all humans!111

Why do you all refuse to accept the most obvious of evidence. This is an anime, so almost anything is possible....but you have to think logically. Just because its possible, doesn't mean its true. If the odds of something happening are like 1:124989^878778 then you can pretty much accept that its not gona be the case. Focus on the more realistic theories instead of stuff like, "hollow ichigo appears to stop the hollow transformation."

[Kraco]

Well, on the other hand it would make a pretty boring thread if the first post contained a theory and all subsequent posts just: "Seconded", "Aye, that must be it", "That's it", etc...

[el_boss]

Originally posted by: Assassin
i swear, more then half of you must be on crack. Where do you keep getting these new theories from?

OMG NEWTHEORY!!!1: hollow ichigo is the next evolution of the human race!

Corallory to new theory: hollow ichigo will team up with magneto who is infact aizens brother and they will kill all humans!111

Why do you all refuse to accept the most obvious of evidence. This is an anime, so almost anything is possible....but you have to think logically. Just because its possible, doesn't mean its true. If the odds of something happening are like 1:124989^878778 then you can pretty much accept that its not gona be the case. Focus on the more realistic theories instead of stuff like, "hollow ichigo appears to stop the hollow transformation."
Which theories are more realistic? If you are going to whine you could at least keep it on topic. For example you can say what theories you don't like and explain why you don't like them, just saying that it's "unrealistic" isn't really a good argument when talking about this sort subject. Or you could say what theory you agree with the most and motivate. My theories might not be to your liking but I take the effort to present my motivation for them.

Your theory isn't really a new one. I would say that it's more like a extension to theory 4. And also it's more logical to say that hollow Ichigo is the next evolution of the shinigamis.

[Assassin]

refer to my earlier posts in the ep 61 thread for my theories and my evidence against some other theories. Im not gonna rewrite all of that here again.

as for realistic theories, here are the ones i mean:

#1, the pit theory. #2, rukia transferrence theory (although it has been disproven). #6, urahara did it on purpose. #3, reincarnation (only cuz we dont know what happens to souls when they die).

everything is imo is pretty idiotic. not because its a pretty long stretch, but because theres alot of evidence against it (stuff like hogokyou affecting rukia/ichigo)

[Kovash]

A few things I noticed that I might mention.

1. Urahara said, quite clearly, that helping Ichigo regain his spiritual powers was about putting him at risk so that he forceibly dragged them to the surface to protect himself.

The Pit was intended as the ultimate risk factor, either do nothing and allow himsefl to become a hollow, lost forever; or become a Shinigami again to prevent the transformation. As Aizen has menioned, Shinigami and Hollows are like oppisites and there is a very definite and real boundary between the two, hence why making hybrids is seemingly impossible. So, Urahara knew that if Ichigo could regain his Shinigami powers, he could not be a hollow.

Urahara was then surprised that when Ichigo underwent the transformation into a Hollow, instead of his spiritual body disintergrating like normal, it retained its form as a sign of defiance against the change. We saw from the dialouge with Zangetsu that his inner soul was crumbling so he was in thep rocess, he just had to stop it by finding his Shinigami powers and making them resurface. (I'm not sure if it was a translation thing; but in the Luna sub Zangetsu mentions that Ichigo's power sensed their imminate destruction at the hands of Byakuya and hid deep inside him, surviving while Rukia's power was cleanly cut out. Which explains why he was carrying Zangetsu and not Rukia's Soul Slayer -unless he is... but there is no evidence of that since we havn't seen her's yet and she hasn't seen Zangetsu either to comment-)

What I think is posible and most likely, is that Ichigo became the Hybrid in the pit. We know that the mask that formed over him is the same Hollow that takes over his Bankai later, since it's the same mask. So the question we are left with is, is Ichigo's Hollow insides a seperate being? or the shadow of his own soul demented by his own emotions (which is what a hollow is.)

I personally think that Ichigo has had a very big Identitiy crisis (his mother dying had a massive impact on him) and that might have created to alternate versions of his own personality. The shame and dred inside him which is normally the source of a Hollow transformation, and his heroic side.

Since he HAS these two sides, and he became a Shingami shortly after turning hollow, maybe his bad side turned hollow and his hero side turned Shinigami so he's a hybrid now... *pant*

[el_boss]

@Assassin: Most of the other theories are explanations of the ones you think are most "realistic". I haven't really seen any evidence against any of the theories. What is the evidence against theory #7?



Originally posted by: Kovash
What I think is posible and most likely, is that Ichigo became the Hybrid in the pit. We know that the mask that formed over him is the same Hollow that takes over his Bankai later, since it's the same mask. So the question we are left with is, is Ichigo's Hollow insides a seperate being? or the shadow of his own soul demented by his own emotions (which is what a hollow is.)

I personally think that Ichigo has had a very big Identitiy crisis (his mother dying had a massive impact on him) and that might have created to alternate versions of his own personality. The shame and dred inside him which is normally the source of a Hollow transformation, and his heroic side.

Since he HAS these two sides, and he became a Shingami shortly after turning hollow, maybe his bad side turned hollow and his hero side turned Shinigami so he's a hybrid now... *pant*
Since the hollow up till now has only taken over when Ichigo has been in shinigami form, we can assume that it isn't connected to his human body but that it recides in his soul. I don't think it's that far off to say as you mentioned, that the hollow is the "shadow of his own soul". I like the idea that Ichigo became "hollow" inside after his mothers death, because of the traumatic nature and that he blames himself. You might even be able to say that the hollow Ichigo is almost the real Ichigo and that his heroic side is a front he puts up so he won't need to deal with his real emotions.

Maybe it's not a far stretch to say that if in fact Ichigo did have split personalities, maybe the bad/sad side sacrificed itself to save the rest. Or maybe it chose to become a hollow so that it would have a chance to resurface.

[Jadugar]

Originally posted by: Assassin
everything is imo is pretty idiotic. not because its a pretty long stretch, but because theres alot of evidence against it (stuff like hogokyou affecting rukia/ichigo)

Hogokkyou has a barrier around it.

[el_boss]

Originally posted by: Jadugar
Hogokkyou has a barrier around it.
I am aware of that. But is it not possible that the barrier might have gotten corrupted when Rukia transferred her powers. Since we don't know how it actually works we can't say for certain what the situation is. It could work directly trough "radiation" or it might be part of a bigger ritual.

I've been thinking about something. The hollow Ichigo seems to be very good at fighting and has alot of general knowledge about being a shinigami it seems. I think this fact could be used as a argument for theories which involve reincarnation. Or maybe it just means that the Hollow part is like Zangetsu and travels between hosts.

[Jurojin]

Originally posted by: el_boss


Originally posted by: Jadugar
Hogokkyou has a barrier around it.
I am aware of that. But is it not possible that the barrier might have gotten corrupted when Rukia transferred her powers. Since we don't know how it actually works we can't say for certain what the situation is. It could work directly trough "radiation" or it might be part of a bigger ritual.

I've been thinking about something. The hollow Ichigo seems to be very good at fighting and has alot of general knowledge about being a shinigami it seems. I think this fact could be used as a argument for theories which involve reincarnation. Or maybe it just means that the Hollow part is like Zangetsu and travels between hosts.








Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait a minute. I need to bring something up.

Rukia didn't get the Hogokkyou(spl) until *after* she transferred her powers to Ichigo (got sucked out of her, more like it i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif). From what I understand from the latest episode, here's the timeline:

Hogokkyou is made, attempts to destroy it are made, but to no avail.
Urahara is kicked out/ leaves willingly from SS, trying to keep it away from Aizen.
skip a few days/months/years however long it was since then
Rukia is wounded by Hollow
Rukia transfers powers to Ichigo
Ichigo wins, runs off to check on family
Urahara comes up to a beat up Rukia, and asks if she needs/wants a faux body.
Rukia goes into said faux body, but unbeknownst to her, the Hogokkyou is hiding inside of it, and as long as she's in the faux body, it slowly starts making her into a human spirit.



That's what *I* understood to be what Aizen was talking about last episode. I'll check again when I get home, but I'm like 95% certain that's the events that happened.

[el_boss]

Originally posted by: Jurojin
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait a minute. I need to bring something up.

Rukia didn't get the Hogokkyou(spl) until *after* she transferred her powers to Ichigo (got sucked out of her, more like it ).
I'm afraid you've got it wrong my friend. This issue has already been discussed in the bleach 61 thread.

The actual timeline:
-Urahara creates hougyou tries to destroy it but fails so he seals it inside Rukia.
-Urahara gets exiled for creating a gigai (faux body) that's untraceable and drains spirit power instead of restoring it.
-skip a few days/months/years however long it was since then
-Rukia is wounded by Hollow
-Rukia transfers powers to Ichigo
-Ichigo wins, runs off to check on family
-Urahara comes up to a beat up Rukia, and asks if she needs/wants a faux body.
-Rukia goes into said faux body, but unbeknownst to her, it slowly starts making her into a human spirit. So that the location of the hougyoku will be lost forever.
-Aizen finds out about the Hougyouku being inside Rukia.
-Aizen makes it so that Byakuya and Renji are sent to retrieve Rukia and the wheels are set in motion.

[FrogKing]

^Damn, I don't read the Manga and I read the first line...I thought that the first post by el_boss where to lay out theories and not from manga readers. Thanks for clearing it up...too bad I didn't really want to know that bad.

[BleachWater]

I watch anime up to ep 61, but got impatient. What i said was still A THEORY. A theory with more SUPPORT that's all. Even without read the manga I would still come up with that theory.

btw, read manga, this is my first time reading manga, i hate comic-stuff period, but I am in love with the storyline of bleach thta's why i cant wait

[heero]

Originally posted by: BleachWater
THIS MIGHT BE A POTENTIAL SPOILER


it is a freakin spoiler

[BleachWater]

SORRY. OK, well we can just pretend all that I said IS THEORY. IT IS just my assumption those things are true, plus I didnt give out too much anyways. Let me find a way to delete my prev post.

Again, sorry guys. I dont know how to delete but I put BIG warning and plenty of space for u guys to ignore. i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif Forgive me this once, I am new, won't happen again.

Read the rules before posting. User has been warned.

GotWoot Moderator

[darkmetal505]

I think Ichigo has awesome powers because he is the main character (or maybe because he has orange hair)....

[Munsu]

BleachWater... just edit out your whole post... If not you'll find your time spent here very very short... Next time read the fucking rules...

[KoKo37]

Originally posted by: BleachWater
OK, THIS IS A SPOILER.
HOWEVER, it is not like you guys probably havent figure it out.
WARNING.

i wont quote the rest but Anything from the manga is not allowed in the *Anime* section, if someone told you what would happen in the manga you wouldn't be too happy either -.-", this is basicly like saying before Aizen was reintroduced in the anime someone would go



*This is a spoiler*


ok now Aizen *is* alive in the manga so I think...

and so on, anyways please delete it so no one else read's it, just edit your post and erase everything. Also how were we suppose to know he was that? i cant think Anyone would of guessed that and now i got another thing spoiled for me on the bleach anime fourms -.-". Anyways yah please delete that message and Fast.

[Fudgeman]

please dont post spoilers even with warnings i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif i have a bad habit of scrolling down and reading a few lines just cuz im curius, and then since i know it all, i keep on going

u just ruined my life

[BleachWater]

I am sorry guys. I tried to delete it but I think a mod delete it already.

hehe SORRY SORRY. SORRY, I just thought that I didn't mind knowing a head, but I didn't think about you guys. Again sorry.

Damn, I feel bad.

[BleachWater]

Ok, I will just give up in this forum. I will stop all posting and re-read all the rules. Thanks for the teaching guys.

[basey44]

bloody hell look whats happened here

ok...uruhara intentionally made ichigo a hybrid

ichigo's shinigami powers were awakened in the pit but he was also transforming into a hollow at the same time resulting in him becoming a perfect mix between the two, exactly what uruhara was aiming for

it has nothing to do with rukias powers i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif come on guys

as for theories on hes someone reincarnated and thats why hes got the powers, they are just so improbable they shouldnt be considered.

[el_boss]

@Basey: I would't call Ichigo a perfect hybrid. I mean he can't control his hollow powers at all only surpress them.



Originally posted by: FrogKing
^Damn, I don't read the Manga and I read the first line...I thought that the first post by el_boss where to lay out theories and not from manga readers. Thanks for clearing it up...too bad I didn't really want to know that bad
Yes, that was the idea, just theories. Otherwise this topic would have been in the bleach manga thread. I don't know what happened in here but it seems like someone spoiled something big time (glad I was sleeping).

[DarthEnderX]

Well, now we know that the ball didn't pass to Ichigo from Rukia. So unless it simply leaked when she gave him her powers, that's not the origin of his Hollow powers.

[Assassin]

as jadugar pointed out before, urahara put a barrier around hogyouku. there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that the barrier would, or that it even could break/leak. Until somsone provides concrete evidece of that being possible, i'll continue to say that the "rukia affected ichigo" is an idiotic theory.

[Fudgeman]

how else could ichigo achieve hybrid hollow form? it had to leak, maybe urahara didnt know that transfering death god powers would also transfer some of the little ball thigns power? plus he didnt do anything to ichigo when he was in the pit. the only other explantation is ichigo did it of his own will, needless of the ball thing

i wonder if ichigo can figure out how to call menos grandes to do that shield thing to him since hes half hollow...

[XanBcoo]

Originally posted by: Fudgeman
how else could ichigo achieve hybrid hollow form?

Ichigo was half-transformed into a hollow in the pit.

[Fudgeman]

duh, we know that, but the problem is what activated it inside the pit

[anphorus]

I think his soul-chain being eaten away probably activted it. The ball-thingy's seal looked intact when Aizen removed it from Rukia.

[Honinbou]

Hmmz..
Didn't Aizen said that there was only 1 way to get more power then a shinigami can get cuz shinigami powers have limits, so he found out that the only way to get more power then the limit is to become a hollow.
Ichigo is always looking for more power to protect his friends etc,
I think it has nothing to do with alot of his "ancesters" or any of those theories, probably ichigo was the first one who found out how to get to the next level, but he can only do it when he or his friends are in life danger.
sounds pretty logically to me...
so every shinigami can become a hollow once unlocked and knowing..

[XanBcoo]

Originally posted by: Fudgeman
duh, we know that, but the problem is what activated it inside the pit

Anphorus is right. Read the other posts in this topic. Hollows are created by a person's soul chain being eaten away. So far that is the ONLY way that hollows are known to come into existence. Urahara explained in the episode that the only way for Ichigo to become a Shinigami is to place him in a situation where he might become a Hollow. As a result of that test, Ichigo is in his current state.

[Fudgeman]

yeh but how is he a hybrid then? with his soul chain doesnt he have to be one or the other?

[anphorus]

Well, he was resisting the process of becoming a hollow when he activated his shinigami powers to stop him becomming a hollow. Since Ichigo has hollow abilities it appears that he didn't turn shinigami quick enough and some of the hollow powers remained, turning him into a hybrid.

i doubt that urahara made Ichigo a hollow hybrid deliberately. Te pit method seems to be failry risky (they were ready to kill Ichigo if he turned hollow). I mean, if urahara created the ball-thingy in the first place, he'd probably be capable of making an other one. (Unless he was desperate, for resorces, being isolated from SS. Which, now that I think about it, does make some sense.)

[el_boss]

I brought this up in the ep 62 thread, what do y'all think?
Apparently Urahara was an expert (or at least adept) at grafting things to souls. Well I guess we indirectly new this already since we knew about how Rukia got the hougyoku. But I think this strenghtens the idea that Urahara wanted Ichigo to become hollowish. It's not impossible that Urahara "planted" a hollow spirit inside Ichigo and used the pit to awaken it.

And to clearify some things about the transfer:
No one (in this thread at least) has said that the hougyoku actually got transfered to Ichigo. It has been theorized though that it's power somehow might have corrupted the transfer. Or as I said that it might have influenced Ichigo while he was near Rukia. These are just theories though and not very probable.

I think that with the info we have now theories 1, 6 and 4 are most probable, in that order.

I haven't seen a good answer to this question I posted yet.
The hollow Ichigo seems to be very good at fighting and has alot of general knowledge about being a shinigami it seems. I think this fact could be used as a argument for theories which involve reincarnation. Or maybe it just means that the Hollow part is like Zangetsu and travels between hosts.

[basey44]

Originally posted by: el_boss
@Basey: I would't call Ichigo a perfect hybrid. I mean he can't control his hollow powers at all only surpress them.

yea he is, he just has to learn how to control it properly and use both his shinigami and hollow sides in unisen, its just a matter of training

[Fudgeman]

Originally posted by: el_boss
And to clearify some things about the transfer:
No one (in this thread at least) has said that the hougyoku actually got transfered to Ichigo. It has been theorized though that it's power somehow might have corrupted the transfer. Or as I said that it might have influenced Ichigo while he was near Rukia. These are just theories though and not very probable.

it cant be in ichigo because first, she didnt get her powers back, second, aizen just took it out of rukia

[el_boss]

Originally posted by: basey44
yea he is, he just has to learn how to control it properly and use both his shinigami and hollow sides in unisen, its just a matter of training
...or is it? From what we have seen though it doesn't seem like the hollow part is so keen on cooperating. Unless by control you mean something like Ichigo being able to release the hollow in short bursts or something. According to popular belief we haven't seen anything that indicates that Ichigo gains anything from just having the hollow inside of him. This would mean that the only way for him to utilise the power would be to release the hollow and then seal it again. Or are you actually saying that Ichigo might get 100% control of the hollow as well as it's personality?

@Fudgeman: Yes, I know. That's what I was talking about. That the houkyouku has always been in Rukia but some of it's power might have slipped out. And what does not getting her power back have to do with the hougyoku being inside her? It was because of Uraharas gigai that she didn't regain her strenght.

[Fudgeman]

gigai=hougyoku to me

yes it probly leaked because urahara didnt know 100% how the orb worked, just mostly

[mage]

Originally posted by: Fudgeman
gigai=hougyoku to me

yes it probly leaked because urahara didnt know 100% how the orb worked, just mostly
gigai=hougyoku? what?

[Fudgeman]

the faux body is the same thing as the hollow hybrid making ball thing

[Kovash]

No it's not...

God, I can't count how many times this has been said.

The Hougyoku has some ultimately powerful application that wasn't fully explained (though Aizen intends to use it to create a perfect Hollow Hybrid) Urahara thought it was far too dnagerous, and to hide it from Aizen (how Urahara saw through the 'ultimate' hypnosis is beyond me) he put it inside Rukia; then when she traveled to the Huam nrealm he offered her a special Gigai to supress her powers and make her very difficult to find.

I guess it didn't work, since that lazy Special forces guy and Renji both found her really easily so... yeah.

Note, Urahara also uses the same Gigai to hide in his little shop thing, so I don't understadn why people think it turns you into a human.

[el_boss]

Originally posted by: Kovash
Note, Urahara also uses the same Gigai to hide in his little shop thing, so I don't understadn why people think it turns you into a human.
Because Aizen said so (maybe it was only in the manga though). And I think that Urahara has some other kind of gigai. He is a genious inventor after all.

[anphorus]

Originally posted by: Kovash
The Hougyoku has some ultimately powerful application that wasn't fully explained (though Aizen intends to use it to create a perfect Hollow Hybrid) Urahara thought it was far too dnagerous, and to hide it from Aizen (how Urahara saw through the 'ultimate' hypnosis is beyond me) he put it inside Rukia; then when she traveled to the Huam nrealm he offered her a special Gigai to supress her powers and make her very difficult to find.

He didn't hide it from Aizen specifically he just hid it away from anyone who might misuse it, either then or in the future.


Originally posted by: el_boss


Originally posted by: Kovash
Note, Urahara also uses the same Gigai to hide in his little shop thing, so I don't understadn why people think it turns you into a human.
Because Aizen said so (maybe it was only in the manga though). And I think that Urahara has some other kind of gigai. He is a genious inventor after all.
I too think that Urahara uses another type of Gigai, maybe even a normal one. It's been suggested (and even overtly stated by Tousen in fox-dude's flashback in ep 62) that Shinigami can supress their spirit force to avoid detection. I think either:

1) Urahara suppressed his spirit force to avoid detection;
2) He invented some kind of device to hide his power from SS, or;
3) SS know he's been banished and Aizen knows he doesn't have the Hougyoku, so even if they do know where he is, why should they care?

The reason he used the Special Gigai on Rukia was that she didn't know she had the Hougyoku, so she didn't know she had to suppress her powers to avoid detection; and that Urahara wanted to make sure she could never return to SS where she might be discovered, so wanted to permenantly remove her powers.

[mage]

Originally posted by: Fudgeman
the faux body is the same thing as the hollow hybrid making ball thing
they are two totally different things..

[Fudgeman]

Originally posted by: mage


Originally posted by: Fudgeman
the faux body is the same thing as the hollow hybrid making ball thing
they are two totally different things..

no im just saying that <u>I</u> just think of them that way untill aizen removed the hougyoku

Edit=forget it, its not important

[Assassin]

why would urahara need to hide himself at all? he was banned from SS, so why would anyone actually come looking for him?

I think urahara actually wants the shinigami to know where he is, incase they every need something while in the human world. How else would rukia know about him and his shop in the first few eps? she not some highranking officer that would be associated with urahara, or anyhting like that, so theres no reason for her to know him from before.

Not to mention the fact the urahara even has a shop. Who do u think hes creating/getting these items for, himself? Its seems pretty obvious to me that urahara wants shinigami to come to him if they need help. Him being a good guy, he probably wants to do whatever he can to follow the shinigami cause despite being banned from SS. He mite even be hoping that his actions will eventually get the higher ups to lift the ban so he can return home.

[Munsu]

I agree with most of your statements...

But apparently Urahara went looking for Rukia, not the other way around...

[Fudgeman]

Urahara just probly made contact with rukia, and she didnt know he used to be a shinigami because shes not high ranked enough for that info. this was probly before ep.1, so she just knew where he was when she happened to need something

[el_boss]

@Assassin: I was under the impression that Urahara hid himself so that no one would come to him in search of the hougyoku.

[Zinobi]

Urahara what was happening behind the "curtain" in soul society. Urahara had found another way to become a hybrid (shinigami-hollow) besides the thingy in Rukia's soul which Aizen took. Urahara did this because he believes that Ichigo has the ability to control hollow inside and save soul society.

sorry if this was posted earlier i didnt check

[ChaosK]

i'm pretty sure what urahara did was unintentional. (making ichigo hollow)

[Zinobi]

what makes you say that?

[Munsu]

I'd say that the fact that all measures he has taken throughout his live was to prevent someone to acquire such powers, I'd say that Urahara made him half hollow unintentional (that's of course if we assume that Ichigo's hollow side is an effect of what Urahara did to him)

[Kraco]

Well, it needs to be remembered that when Urahara cast Ichigo into the pit, Rukia was in Aizen's hands, pretty much, because she had been imprisoned already. So, if Urahara thought the worst could happen and Aizen seized the original hybrid, it might be beneficial or at least not too harmful to give Ichigo some extra power. The damage was already done, anyway.

Edit: a typo removed...

[Mae]

I'm rethinking my earlier judgement of Urahara as a good guy. Just consider what he did to Rukia. He hid something extremely dangerous inside of her without even warning her about it. Now, the original reasons he chose her are unclear (maybe it was an emergency and there was noone stronger available), but he has no excuse for not telling her about it later. She was put in horrible danger because of what he did.

And he tricked her into that false body. Again, he might have had a good reason for it, but he should have told her what he was doing. I remember a scene where she was trying to battle a hollow but her powers weren't strong enough, and she would likely have died if Ichigo hadn't shown up to save her.

And why did he make something so dangerous in the first place? He shouldn't have been messing around with it, and now he's using others to clean up his mess. I wouldn't say it was beyond him to deliberately make Ichigo into a hybrid, although I'm not yet sure that's what happened.

[SamuraiX-]

You took the words right out of my mouth Mae. I couldn't have said it better myself. All I can hope for now is that Urahara gives a good read why he hid the Hougyoku inside Rukia without telling her about it. I would really hate to seem him turn into one of there enemies, but I doubt that will happen, I'm guessing they'll forgive him since he nearly had no other choice.

On top of that, I think Ichigo and Rukia have much bigger things to worry about than Urahara... *COUGH*TEHINVINCIBLEAIZEN*COUGH*. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

P.S. - Really enjoyed reading your post, seems like you feel the same way I do about everything that's happenend. ^_^

[anphorus]

I tought that the reason that Urahara kept the fact that he had hidden the Hougyoku inside Rukia was obvious, the fewer people that know a secret the fewer people that can tell it. The fact is that even if Urahara told Rukia to never tell anyone, Rukia may one day reveal it, no matter how unintentional. Another thing is that in the living world truth serum is available, and so it is likely, what with Kido and all that, that there is a similar thing in soul society. If anyone ever questioned a number of people (including Rukia) to discover the Hougyoku's whereabouts, either through tortue or coersion (or in the case of Aizen, perhaps making Rukia think that he is Urahara) she would never be able to reveal it.

As far as we know the Hougyoku isn't harmful at all to the shinigami in whom it is sealed, so if it was never discovered it would never have effected her life. I will admit that turning Rukia into a human is questionable, but she seemed to enjoy her life in the living world enough.

As for Urahara being good or evil, I'd say that he is a good guy, but that definately doesn't mean that he's all for the heroes. Urahara, to me, seems to be the guy who is willing to make whatever sacrifices are neccesary for the greater good.

[Zinobi]

Originally posted by: Mae
And why did he make something so dangerous in the first place? He shouldn't have been messing around with it, and now he's using others to clean up his mess. I wouldn't say it was beyond him to deliberately make Ichigo into a hybrid, although I'm not yet sure that's what happened.

I may be wrong on this, but I don't think Urahara can go to Soul Society. When Ichigo and the others went Urahara touched the gate and it shocked him (or something like that) and woulnt let his hand pass.

[SamuraiX-]

Originally posted by: Zinobi


Originally posted by: Mae
And why did he make something so dangerous in the first place? He shouldn't have been messing around with it, and now he's using others to clean up his mess. I wouldn't say it was beyond him to deliberately make Ichigo into a hybrid, although I'm not yet sure that's what happened.

I may be wrong on this, but I don't think Urahara can go to Soul Society. When Ichigo and the others went Urahara touched the gate and it shocked him (or something like that) and woulnt let his hand pass.

Yeah, you're right, I remember that it was explained sometime in between the past few episodes. I'm fairly sure that Aizen was the one who explained it, since no one else spoke of Urahara. So, between episode 60-62... someone go check that out. i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

[anphorus]

Yeah, it looks to me as though Urahara was going to go and help the others, but the gate wouldn't let him through. When SS exiles someone, they seem to really mean it. I'll get some images up post haste, my connection is kinda screwy right now.

Edit: Ah, there we are.

Image 1 (http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/6140/70184pq.jpg) and Image 2 (http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/7299/70193nz.jpg)

I use manga images in this case because it gets all the information across in fewer images, and I've been recently re-reading that part of the manga, so I knew just the bit you were talking about.

[mage]

Originally posted by: anphorus
Yeah, it looks to me as though Urahara was going to go and help the others, but the gate wouldn't let him through.
i think it's more like he was just testing it to see if it still wouldn't let him through.

[SamuraiX-]

Originally posted by: anphorus
Yeah, it looks to me as though Urahara was going to go and help the others, but the gate wouldn't let him through. When SS exiles someone, they seem to really mean it. I'll get some images up post haste, my connection is kinda screwy right now.

Edit: Ah, there we are.

Image 1 (http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/6140/70184pq.jpg) and Image 2 (http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/7299/70193nz.jpg)

I use manga images in this case because it gets all the information across in fewer images, and I've been recently re-reading that part of the manga, so I knew just the bit you were talking about.

Yep, that proves he can't get through, but at the time, I thought it just meant that there was no turning back for Ichigo and the others after they went through the portal. XD

Also, I was looking for the one scene where Aizen explains that Urahara actually couldn't go to Soul Society anymore because his was exiled. I'll try to go look up some imagines that explains that part, give me a few minutes though. ^_^

EDIT: Well, this is the best I can do, since that's all they say about him in the Manga, which usually explains everything. XD

Urahara Kisuke - Exiled (http://img506.imageshack.us/img506/301/m7bleachch175156lt.jpg)

I actually thought there was more to what Aizen said about Kisuke, but I guess not. ^_^;;

[DarthEnderX]

Note, Urahara also uses the same Gigai to hide in his little shop thing, so I don't understadn why people think it turns you into a human.

No he doesn't. Because it's been clearly stated that Rukia's gigai strips you of your Death God powers and turns you human eventually. Which Urahara is clearly not.



quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by: Kovash
The Hougyoku has some ultimately powerful application that wasn't fully explained (though Aizen intends to use it to create a perfect Hollow Hybrid) Urahara thought it was far too dnagerous, and to hide it from Aizen (how Urahara saw through the 'ultimate' hypnosis is beyond me) he put it inside Rukia; then when she traveled to the Huam nrealm he offered her a special Gigai to supress her powers and make her very difficult to find.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


He didn't hide it from Aizen specifically he just hid it away from anyone who might misuse it, either then or in the future.



This is correct, because if Uruhara knew Aizen was the badguy they wouldn't have had all this trouble to begin with. The point was that NOBODY knew Aizen was a badguy except for Gin and Tousen.



i'm pretty sure what urahara did was unintentional. (making ichigo hollow)

I agree. No real proof. Just what I think. Course I'm still not sure the hole was the original cause of it anyway.

[Kraco]

It's ironic the Hollows seem to have no problems entering the SS to rescue their little henchmen, but Urahara is totally incapable of entering...

It seems to me like the SS needs to do what the Japanese did after Commodore Perry's visit...

[burnout]

6. Urahara advertedly put Ichigo in the pit knowing it would make him into a hybrid hollow.

this is tha only reason i can think of

ichigo only got all he's power trough Urahara

but i'm starting to think
2. Rukia trasfered it to him when she gave him shinigami powers.
is tru to

based on all the facts i would say its a mixture of bouth

[Zinobi]

Originally posted by: burnout
but i'm starting to think
2. Rukia trasfered it to him when she gave him shinigami powers.
is tru to

based on all the facts i would say its a mixture of bouth

that is wrong. when Byakuya and Renji take Rukia back, Byakuya takes Ichigo's power away by destroying, i cant remember the name, which destroyed Ichigo's power. the reason why Ichigo could regain shinigami status was because he had his own power inside.

[el_boss]

Maybe he got those powers from the hougyoku. What do we know, ey?

[Munsu]

Originally posted by: DarthEnder


Note, Urahara also uses the same Gigai to hide in his little shop thing, so I don't understadn why people think it turns you into a human.

No he doesn't. Because it's been clearly stated that Rukia's gigai strips you of your Death God powers and turns you human eventually. Which Urahara is clearly not.


Plus there is no reason for Urahara to hide himself... In fact, I think he still deals with Soul Society in some way or form... He was simply exiled from it, no one is looking for him to execute him... Plus a Shinigami like him would have no trouble hiding his spiritual presence if he didn't want to be found...

[Splash!]

i wonder what is up with ichigo's blade having no hilt. there is something extremely unique about that as i still cant forget that super scared look tessai had when ichigo released zangetsu against urahara

[SamuraiX-]

Just to make it look more and more like a big-ass kitchen knife. I mean, look at it! What the hell were the art directors thinking?! XD

[Splash!]

i am not saying the sword is a good design because it is definitely not! its just that the fact that it has no hilt or guard maybe has some sort of hidden meaning that tessai and urahara know about. And tessai was unable to cover up his sense of shock when he saw it.

[Zinobi]

Are you saying that Zangetsu is like a Hollow-type? 'Cause that would be wrong I guess. The thread saying something about it (http://forums.gotwoot.net/messageview.cfm?catid=66&amp;threadid=17118&amp;enterthrea d=y)

[Kovash]

It makes sense though, acctually.

Many times, people have mentioned that Ichigo is all about offence, attacking in the hope of overwhelming his enemies. The lack of a handguard basically symbolises his (almost total) disregard for defence.

I remember watching a 'live-action' Maga movie where the badguy spent the entire movie gloating about the same thing - that his katana had no guard because he never used it to defend, since he could kill anyone in one stroke.


I generally find these little things have a lot more meaning to the Japanese that watch them, since it's based on their culture and not ours. For example, the females cutting their long hair short intentionally, Inoe having her hair cut off by other people and not growing it back until she found her own resolve again - that kinda thing that we sometimes miss. (and by we, I mean westerners.)

But yeah, that.


------------------

On topic;

About Urahara not knowing it was Aizen specifically - ok, that's kinda a given, but the intent of my post was to point out that he was hiding from SOMEONE, just that we all know that Aizen is the badguy so if I wrote, 'Urahara was hiding from some unknown badguy' we'd probably get a flood of posts like, "You fool! do you watch the show? AIZEN is the bad guy!"

Anyway, I stand by what I've said - though I don't specifically remember anyone saying that the Gigai will turn you into a human, just prevent you from recovering your Shinigami powers - so I'll just assume you know what you're talking about.


More to the point, I believe that the Pit is the cause, for my reasons already stated, and that it was unintentional on the part of Urahara (the man was improvising, ffs - how many humans has he had to train into super Shinigami fighters with hidden powers needing fear to unlock?)

[Splash!]

Originally posted by: Zinobi
Are you saying that Zangetsu is like a Hollow-type? 'Cause that would be wrong I guess. The thread saying something about it (http://forums.gotwoot.net/messageview.cfm?catid=66&amp;threadid=17118&amp;enterthrea d=y)

now when did i say that. I just said that zangetsu is something different from other soul slayers. Now ichigo can be called a hybrid so maybe that is why zangetsu is the way it is, unique and always in its released form. Just a suggestion

[Jurojin]

I'll edit this clean if I find out I was mistaken, but I was watching the first 25 episodes with someone to try and catch them up with the series, and I believe I noticed something that I think others have missed:


Ichigo showed some Hollow power during the Ichigo/Renji fight. Before people throw sharp metal objects at me, check the episode where Ichigo loses Rukia's powers- I think 17? Compare the sequence when he blacks out and suddenly becomes an ass-kicking fiend to the Ichigo/Bykauga(spl) fight.

He gets a very bad wound (life/death) and starts fading out

Suddenly starts kicking Renji around with vastly improved fighting skills, leaping about, muttering "Hella" (This might be a translation thing the first time around, but still- only time he's used the phrase)

In his most recent fight, he was heavily wounded, fading out....


Fades out.


Hollow-Ichi shows up with vastly improved fighting skills, leaping about, Hella, etc


(I must have blinked or I'm going senile, but after looking at it again no clear cut proof that his Hollow came out in the renji fight- I do still hold that it's very similar and while it(his hollow side) didn't come all the way out, it certainly influenced his attitude and combat skills.)



See I'm reading all these posts on hollows and their creation, and nobody is making a connection to the fact that the ability to become a hollow is inside any soul. Yes the catalyst is the destruction of the Spirit Chain, but that doesn't mean that somehow, magically (of course this is anime we're talking about) they become a hollow- it's a matter of something within, their Id, being unleashed.


(Id= the one of the three divisions of the psyche in psychoanalytic theory that is completely unconscious and is the source of psychic energy derived from instinctual needs and drives.
Rukia explained that Hollows are pluses that become pure *instinct*, right?)


So wouldn't it stand to reason that Ichigo's Id(or his hollow side, whatever you want to call it) has always been there, but subdued until brought to the surface during the pit? I'm just bringing this up because I see a lot of verbage saying he didn't have a Hollow inside of him until after the pit, which if I'm correct on the above, that's not true.

[Kraco]

Originally posted by: Jurojin
See I'm reading all these posts on hollows and their creation, and nobody is making a connection to the fact that the ability to become a hollow is inside any soul. Yes the catalyst is the destruction of the Spirit Chain, but that doesn't mean that somehow, magically (of course this is anime we're talking about) they become a hollow- it's a matter of something within, their Id, being unleashed.

So wouldn't it stand to reason that Ichigo's Id(or his hollow side, whatever you want to call it) has always been there, but subdued until brought to the surface during the pit? I'm just bringing this up because I see a lot of verbage saying he didn't have a Hollow inside of him until after the pit, which if I'm correct on the above, that's not true.

Well, this part of your theory doesn't actually mean much in practice. From Byakuya's reaction (and we have to remember he's an old Taichou and probably has seen a lot) we can deduce that what happened to Ichigo during the fight is something quite rare indeed. So, even if everybody has the sleeping hollow inside them, it should certainly remain sleeping, unless the soul becomes a wholehearted hollow.

The question is just that: Why Ichigo's hollow side can surface and begin to kick ass even though Ichigo is not a hollow. Is it because Ichigo is some sort of hybrid (and why if he is) or is it something else, and when and how he became what he is.

[Jurojin]

@Kraco:

Maybe it's just semantics, but it points out that the pit most likely had nothing to do with his hybridization, especially if I'm right on the top part and he did, if sub consciously, throw out some of his Hollow power out during the Ichigo/Renji fight. A lot of the recent posts are focusing on his trial in the pit, and I'm putting this out to say maybe (again, once/if I get proof) they're focusing on the wrong spot. You know, a new idea (I believe).

[Zinobi]

Originally posted by: splash


Originally posted by: Zinobi
Are you saying that Zangetsu is like a Hollow-type? 'Cause that would be wrong I guess. The thread saying something about it (http://forums.gotwoot.net/messageview.cfm?catid=66&amp;threadid=17118&amp;enterthrea d=y)

now when did i say that. I just said that zangetsu is something different from other soul slayers. Now ichigo can be called a hybrid so maybe that is why zangetsu is the way it is, unique and always in its released form. Just a suggestion

well i didnt mean you were saying that i just thought that was where you were going with it.

[burnout]

Originally posted by: Jurojin
@Kraco:

Maybe it's just semantics, but it points out that the pit most likely had nothing to do with his hybridization, especially if I'm right on the top part and he did, if sub consciously, throw out some of his Hollow power out during the Ichigo/Renji fight. A lot of the recent posts are focusing on his trial in the pit, and I'm putting this out to say maybe (again, once/if I get proof) they're focusing on the wrong spot. You know, a new idea (I believe).

--------------------------

what you are telling is correct in some parts just like you said in ep 17 ichigo go's "Beserk"
with could be his hollow ( or shadow) side awakening.

i can understand the rest to in relation with ichigo
we didnt actuely see ichigo change just that he got a (BIG freaking) boost in power in ep 17
so most of us are as you said focusing on the wrong spot.

you are right about the facial expression in ep 17 and during his fight with Kenpachy (or something like that) they do look alike
actuely if you look closely you could say the are alike 99%

thats my asumsion right now

( oke oke i know my spelling sucks )

[Kovash]

Uhhh, when you say 'Faces' are you talking about his facial expression, or the big energy face that appears, becasue during the Ichigo/Renji fight in ep 17, it's not there and Ichigo always has that cocky expression on his face whenever he thinks he can't lose.


I'm not saying your theory is invalid or anything like that, just that it seems unlikely that his 'Hollow' side has anything to do with his normal power. He is insanely strong normally, just he can't controll it, all we've seen his hollow half do is use his full power to the fullest, so to speak, it doesn't nessecarily give him a power boost.

Remember that Ichigo already had Byakuya beat on his own, his Hollow side only came out because he supidly dragged on the fight and the strain of the Bankai was getting to him - while I will admit that Hollow Ichigo used some techniques that Ichigo can't, (like stretching limbs) we've seen that Hollows have all sorts of weird abilites and it isn't nessecarily a power boost as I mentioned earlier.

The ONLY thing out of the ordinary (aside form the massive power boost) in the ep17 fight is a red flash (Like the red Fang move Hollow Ichi uses) )when Ichigo attacks Renji but I can't see anything that insignificant and probably unintentional being forshadowing.

For the moment, all we can really prove is that Ichigo is rediculously strong and while his body/spirit cannot contain that amount of energy yet, His hollow half has no problems doing so and can use his power to full effect.


As far as I am concerned, the boosts in power in ep17 and against the Menos are simply explained by Urahara; 'The Soul most easily extracts power when it is in danger of destruction' which is the basis of all his training techniques.