Thought Crimes

[Xollence]

http://www.ihr.org/news/112705HoloDenial.html

What a stupid law, even though the guy is an idiot, I don't think he should be jailed for what he believes. It's like jailing people for saying that 9/11 never happened. There's so much evidence that it happened why should we care what this guy says? Anyways this guy's still in jail in Germany for "thought crimes."

[Lefty]

The funny thing is they never mention all the Gypsies, Homosexuals, and non jew germans that were sent to interment camps as well. Half of those who died weren't even jewish, thye were just unwanted by the nazi's or clashed with the political postion of the nazi party.

[Kraco]

Wow. I never knew there were laws like that in some countries. Sounds like traditional communist stuff.

[el_boss]

Originally posted by: Kraco
Wow. I never knew there were laws like that in some countries. Sounds like traditional communist stuff.
Aren't there plenty of laws like that in america? I don't know the details, but I keep hearing about the patriot act.

The link is broken.

[Kraco]

Originally posted by: el_boss
Aren't there plenty of laws like that in america? I don't know the details, but I keep hearing about the patriot act.

The link is broken.

Altough I'm no supporter of the Patriot act (not that it matters since I don't even live in the US), it seems there's at least some wits and sensible purpose behind it. But if somebody is stupid enough to believe the crimes of WW II never happened... Well, I'm not sure stupidity is a valid reason to send someone to prison.

It could be argued such a person would have pure political reasons for trying to convert other people to his way of thinking, but no society with a decent school system would leave anybody devoid of the actual historical facts, anyway, so there shouldn't be around too many blank minds who would just absorb false teaching like that as the truth. So, if somebody converts to charlatanic believes concerning the holocaust, he does already know what he wants.

The link seems to work OK for me, though. Must have been some temporal glitch for you.

[masamuneehs]

Thought crime = 1984
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_crime

Thoughtcrime does not entail death: thoughtcrime IS death.

[Kovash]

:/

While I could sympathise with the people who decided to institute such a law, I personally find that it violates even basic human rights.

The simple fact is that it's majority vs minority. I've met people who honestly and whole heartily believe that the American Moon Landing never happened. I'm inclnied to believe that it did, but I wouldn't cry if evidence was found to the contrary.

During a trip to China, a friend of mine was warned not to speak of the Tieniman Square massacre - apparently the government has stricken it from the historical records of all libraries and schools, and hwile this hasn't prevented people from 'finding out about it' or remembering it, speaking of it has been known to result in sudden dissapearances.

Since it was not me, I don't know how credible that accusation is, but it makes me wonder.


The point is, it's not the first time something like this has happened, and it's not the last time either. Hell, women in some countires can be stoned for being unfaithful to their husbands. Slavery happened, the Egyptians entire history was dictated by the Temple Preists, erasing people thy didn't like and over exaggerating those they did.


Side note: I find it strange that the guy was arrested in Austria and then tried in Germany. I know not every single german was part of the Nazi party, but I find it interesting that they are the most vehemant about enforcing such a law.

[Xollence]

Not only that but there were attempts kill him. Although I don't agree with him I do agree that "the truth doesn't need laws to protect it." Anyone know how long he's been sentenced for or if there is a possible death penalty?(I wouldn't be suprised)

[Board of Command]

Originally posted by: masamuneehs
Thought crime = 1984
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_crime

Thoughtcrime does not entail death: thoughtcrime IS death.
Great to see another 1984 fan.

Refusal to believe some historical information should not be a crime. However, refusing to say oranges are orange is. Just my opinion...

[Uchiha Barles]

No society should institutionalize a punishment for this type of idiocy, but then again, no society should allow this such people to go without a brutal ass kicking. This is why people who don't give a damn of the consequences when they take it upon themselves to "fix" something are useful. Teaches people what to stfu about.

[masamuneehs]

Originally posted by: BOARD_of_command


Originally posted by: masamuneehs
Thought crime = 1984
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_crime

Thoughtcrime does not entail death: thoughtcrime IS death.
Great to see another 1984 fan.

Refusal to believe some historical information should not be a crime. However, refusing to say oranges are orange is. Just my opinion...

Who says an orange is actually orange colored? Perhaps it simply appears that way to most human eyes, but that may be a mental property, not one of the orange itself. You see an object that seems to give you an orange color, but is that really an orange? Might it not only be some small representation or placeholder for an object that we can never actually have direct knowledge of, THE orange? Granted, it is what we call 'an orange', and define through language. However, various people can think of different types of oranges, all with various traits, so there is not any one of THE oranges that we may think of in actual existence. And, the object we see and have given a name to will then only "that thing which we call an orange", still not THE orange. It is quite possible that saying "an orange" is not orange may be a true statement.

Memory is a personal realm. Refusal to remember, think of, acknowledge something is not a crime (unless it results in actual harm done to others ie. negligence, manslaughter, etc.) because it is at the very core of the definition of what we like to call "free will".

And, @ Board, 1984 was a great book, maybe my favorite from the classic dystopian novels. Brave New World was most excellent as well. Haven't splurged into that genre in a very long time but its fascinating. That which one man would call perfection another will call Hell.

[XanBcoo]

Originally posted by: masamuneehs
Who says an orange is actually orange colored? Perhaps it simply appears that way to most human eyes, but that may be a mental property, not one of the orange itself. You see an object that seems to give you an orange color, but is that really an orange? Might it not only be some small representation or placeholder for an object that we can never actually have direct knowledge of, THE orange? Granted, it is what we call 'an orange', and define through language. However, various people can think of different types of oranges, all with various traits, so there is not any one of THE oranges that we may think of in actual existence. And, the object we see and have given a name to will then only "that thing which we call an orange", still not THE orange. It is quite possible that saying "an orange" is not orange may be a true statement.


lol, we seriusly just went over all of that stuff in Philosophy 301, like, 2 days ago. Plato's concept of forms, the Correspondence Theory, Internalism vs. Externalism, etc.

But I think saying "an orange is orange" is just about the same as saying "What we perceive as an orange is what we generally recognize to be the color orange" The oranges *actual* properties have no bearing if we cannot really know them by normal human processes, no? As you said, it's a matter of language. Though I have yet to hear of someone who knows of a different type of orange than me, or for that matter anyone else.

So in this case I guess saying "oranges are not orange" would mean denying the fact that "those things which we call oranges do not have the properties we perceive of them." - in this case, their color. Which is for the most part wrong (or so I'd think). But still not reasonably punishable.

[Cal_kashi]

http://today.reuters.com/News/...T-IRAN-AHMADINEJAD.xml (http://today.reuters.com/News/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-12-08T182336Z_01_RID850121_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-IRAN-AHMADINEJAD.xml)

[darkmetal505]

yea, very closely related to 1984 (excellent book). Thought crime is just used as a society controlling device.

[aznroyale]

1984 the book is a great book ppl should read it

[masamuneehs]

Originally posted by: Cal_kashi
http://today.reuters.com/News/...T-IRAN-AHMADINEJAD.xml (http://today.reuters.com/News/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-12-08T182336Z_01_RID850121_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-IRAN-AHMADINEJAD.xml)

I'm glad someone else reads the news i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

So basically, its Iran's president questions whether Holocaust ever occurred (http://today.reuters.com/News/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-12-08T182336Z_01_RID850121_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-IRAN-AHMADINEJAD.xml)

And yeah, I can see how you'd be pissed about this. (if anyone told me that slavery never happened and that black people should quit their bitching, i'd most likely deck the fool). But the man is obviously just using political propaganda. The Palestine/Israel conflict is a religiously charged world impacter.

And honestly, if he tries some bad shit on his people and tries to deny that it ever happened, hopefully Uncle Sam will send a helicopter ("Noriega! We're coming for you!")and some squads to take the guy and try him for real crimes.

Opinions vs opinons can't be decided by the courts, no justice can be deliberated in that.

[KaosSinner]

Originally posted by: aznroyale
1984 the book is a great book ppl should read it

Excellent book, not reading this is a crime. Im glad there are people who know about its existence. Everyone knows about BIG BROTHER ( A pathetic TV show in Spain) but no one knows where it came from.

Im Chinese, strange to say I hate communists, hate my country and everything within it. In other words fucking hate the government. This is totally off topic but I cant keep from mentioning it. 2002 summer, a general recession in the chinese economy. Everyone knew about it, something of this scale should appear in the news, it didnt. The news, the media only mentioned economic boom of a small village in the middle of nowhere which I doubt it even exists but failed to mention the general economic recession. An example of communism and its shit, same as in the book.

More stuff. Thought crime EXISTS in China. The police can drag you to wherever they want and beat the shit out of you if they think youre not thinking as they want you to, they can even put you in jail. Comunism, dictatorship, corruption, they all work together.

2 much control or 2 much freedom both creat problems. Perfect example : China and USA.
Most European countries are somewhere in between, thats the equilibrium.

[Cal_kashi]

i hope you see the irony in saying that not reading 1984 is e a crime

edit: heres the coures description for a class im gonna be taking for fun next semester. My first class in 10 semesters that I get to take because I want to, seemed appropriate to post here.

This interdisciplinary course applies sociological methods to understand the dramatic social consequences of the economic reforms underway in China since 1978, while examining the practical problems of how the Chinese and American media represent these developments to audiences at home and abroad. Sociological topics include change in Communist Party/state-society relations; decollectivization of the rural economy; ownership reform in the urban economy; and realization of the urban residence control system. Journalistic problems include how do attitudes toward information, censorship, and secrecy affect professional news gathering; and influences on news agendas.