Minerva vs Archangel.

[naruto22]

First of all, discount all MS. This will lessen headache of this debate. And now I set the scenarios.

Archangel
Captain: Captain Maryu Ramius (veteran of the previous war, commanded the Archangel during the most difficult part of its career and against insurmountable odds, emerged from the previous war intact. She is a very understanding captain while at the same time being a no nonsense captain during battle. Her personality endears most of the crew to her, which explains why many of the old crew still remain. Kira also treats her like a big sister. Very charismatic but a little weak against relationships.

Armanents:
"Lohengrin" positron blaster cannon x 2 (Most Heave weaponry, capable of firing two at once)
"Gottfried Mk.71" 225cm dual high-energy beam cannon x 2 (Standard Anto-Warship weapon)
"Valiant Mk.8" 110cm linear cannon x 2 (High speed firing RAIL gun often used in GS against MS)
"Igelstellung" 75mm automatic multi-barrel CIWS x 16 (useless except for destroying missles)
Torpedo launcher x ? (Wombat anti Ship missles, Sledgehammer heavy missiles used against MS and ships)
Large missile launcher x 24
Surface-to-air missile launcher x 16 (Helldarts, mostly for interception of incoming missles and non-PS MS)
Anti-beam depth charge launcher x 8 (Like hell they need them, AA's armour is laminated and extremely laser resistant.

Weaknesses: Apparently so far, only speed. Nazca's could outrun them in GS. Minerva on the other hand is more speed oriented so possess an advantage in this field.

Minerva
Captain Talia Gladys: We know nothing about Talia's prior combat experience except that apparently, she did fight in the previous war, making her a veteran. Her exploits on the planet Earth shows that she is a competent commander who knows her ship but her strategist skills, like Maryu is not displayed often. Personality wise, she is a little drab and not quite as likeable as Maryu. Her chief weakness is her inability to administer military discipline to her crew, as demonstrated by Shinn Asuka who has blatantly disregarded her orders many times and never shows her the respect that is due to a captain.

Nevertheless, like Maryu , she is competent. I would like to put both on the same level in terms of captaining their ships.

Armanenets
XM47 "Tristan" dual beam cannon x 2, (Similar to Gottfreid, they're used for anti-ship duels and have better recharge then the Tanhauser)
M10 "Isolde" 42cm triple cannon x 1 (Shell weaponry. this I believe is one of the few advantages Minerva has over AA as AA is still vulnerable to projectile weaponry. AA's only equivalent is the Valiant rail guns, which so far, have not seen deployed effectively against warships)

QZX-1 "Tannhäuser" positron cannon x 1, (Minerva's ultimate weapon. Since it has only one, I think is safe to assume that it has a faster recharge rate the AA's two Lohengrins.

40mm CIWS x 12, missile launchers ("Neidhardt" space missiles,
"Parsifal" ground missiles, "Dispar" interceptor missiles) x many, torpedo launcher ("Wolfram" M25 torpedoes) x 4, anti-beam depth charge launchers x many

Weaknesses: Not much. I would say the lack of submersible capabilities but that is irrelevant to the scenario I've set below. It does seem that AA is slightly more heavily armed than Minerva is you take into account that Minerva has only one Isolde cannon while AA has 2 Valiant rail guns.

First debate

Battleground: Space (assume deep space, no gravity factors like Earth and the Moon to hamp their maneuverabilities.

OK people, throw your opinions. AND MAKE SURE THEY'RE WELL DOCUMENTED AND SUPPORTED WITH ON-SCREEN EVIDENCE. I'm an auditor by profession and i like to see evidence back opinions.

[Raiten]

If you only take specs of both battleships into consideration you will undoubtfully find out that the Minerva is equipped with weaponary to destroy other battle ships. While the AA is built for multi-purpose situation mainly for large scale war. Both ships can possibly take out the other if the attacks are concentrated correctly. Therefore both ships are on the same scale in this matter. Except, Minerva is built way after AA therefore it's technology is far more advance to AA, so MInerva has the advantage there. The Tanhauser has a longer range then any gun AA has on it's arsenal. The overall comparison would end up with MInerva winning, but when the added factor of who's the captain then it can be clearly stated that it all results in how much skill and how clever the captain of the battle ship is. Also as stated before somewhere in this forum, there is a theory saying that Minerva's original intent was to be built to destroy AA therefore it is better armed and more manverable then the AA in almost all factors. Except the only thing that the person who designed the Minerva missed out was the new AA was upgraded to be able to dive underwater as it previously wasn't able to in GS. Therefore that's the only disadvantage it has over the AA. According to Episode 43-44 the AA was extremely disadvantaged to the Minerva the whole battle until it decided to use submission tactics to fight back. So, the last word would be that Minerva would win if it was a regular space war of dumb captains and cannon spamming retards.

[Curium]

Originally posted by: Raiten
The Tanhauser has a longer range then any gun AA has on it's arsenal.


The Tannhauser is "just" a Positron Cannon. It is THE EXACT SAME THING as the Archangel's Lohingrin. Archangel would have the advantage there because they have TWO of them to Minerva's ONE. Even if the Tannhauser has a faster recharge cycle as naruto22 thinks, the AA could just stagger it's shots. Plus in 1 on 1 Ship combat I doubt range would end up as an issue unless one of them was trying to snipe at the other before the fight began.



Originally posted by: naruto22
M10 "Isolde" 42cm triple cannon x 1 (Shell weaponry. this I believe is one of the few advantages Minerva has over AA as AA is still vulnerable to projectile weaponry. AA's only equivalent is the Valiant rail guns, which so far, have not seen deployed effectively against warships)


I don't see how this is an advantage at all. Rail Guns are just like the Isolade, except they can fire MUCH faster projectiles which are harder to dodge. In fact I don't remember the Isolade hitting anything before until episode 45 where it hit a stationary target (the moon base). That doesn't mean it hasn't, but it wasn't anything notable. The Archangel used the Variant Rail Guns against the ZAFT naval fleet a couple of episodes ago, and we have never really seen it in combat with space war ships. At the beginning of SEED it was constantly on the run because it was pretty much always out numbered and out gunned by larger ZAFT attack forces and the stolen Gundam units. After it met up with the 8th Armada while the Armada was fighting the ZAFT force the Archangel was decending to Earth. Then at the end of SEED when it returned to space it pretty much only fought the Dominion, 1 ship which happened to have the former Executive Officer (and someone that Ramius was probably hesitent to kill) from the AA as it's captain. In Destiny we have yet to see the AA in Space at all.

[Strike Freedom]

An important key to remember in a debate that is a grey area, there is no right or wrong, just a well contested argument. I like this question as it is very similar to that of an essay on a LSAT. Yes, I am an aspiring attorney so I know a question structured like this would be on there! Very well done, presentation of facts is plausible, as well as the setup of rules for this thread's debate.

I would have to say the Archangel would come out on top. Why? I heavily base my opinion on the experience difference/skills of the captains. (I will not bring up the crew of each respective ship as it would be unadvantageous for me in terms of time, so only captains will suffice).

Ramius is a veteran captain, with several years experience. She played a curcial role in the last war. Further, she has shown herself to be very competent and to maintain complete composure while under pressure. From previous battles, her strategic attacks are instinctive and coordinated. Ramius is more effetive in strategy and tactics since the Archangel does not look to destroy its enemy, rather disable it. She also follows no superior's orders and commands the entire battle sequence for the AA. Ramius uses her environment to her advantage (look back at various episodes such as 23, 28, and 42) . There were several times that the AA surprised the Minerva. Of course, the circumstances were in favor of the Archangel. I bring up this point since it does not specify who initiates the battle, exactly how it starts, etc. Another advantage is that Ramius actually knows the Minerva, since she's worked on it (look back to the beginning episodes when she is maintaining it in Orb, episode 8). She was in the ship, she should know its limits and capacities. The Archangel is more heavily armed than the Minerva, this advantage is self explanatory. Although slower, it makes up for its lack of speed with its weapons and quick decisions from an experienced and capable captain and crew. The AA's crew is by far more experienced than that of the Minerva's as well. Experience is important when dealing with enemies, it gives one an upper hand in strategy/tactics. Lastly, the AA fights for what it believes in. Although this may seem trivial, I believe one's faith can drive that individual beyond expectations and help overcome most obstacles.

Talia is a good captain, but lacks the experience of Ramius (from what we know). I would not consider her a great tactician when compared to Ramius. The Minerva more or less aims at taking out its enemy. She is told to follow orders, is told where to be on the battlefield, unlike her counterpart. Look back at most of the battles and the Minerva is always part of a larger attack squad of Zaft, and in some instances Talia asks for permission from her superiors (episode 42 and 43 are good proof). Her lack of control over the crew creates a dissonance that affects the effectiveness of the Minerva in battle (episode 33 is a good one to watch to realize that there are different views on this ship). If her crew is doing as they please in battle it could prove disruptive to the Minerva. Talia seems to let her emotions get a bit more out of hand than her counterpart (episode 37). This has led her to be indecisive about some decisions in battle (episode 34 when AA is being attacked by Minerva) and quick to act in others (look back at episode 42 around 19:25). The Minerva is strong, but it does not fight for a particular belief. It does as it is told to do. This is a disadvantage in battle. The captain Gladys is very conflicted in following orders and her beliefs, and this leads to ineffective and inefficient leadership.

Overall, both ships match up pretty equally. Though the Archangel is slow as pointed out, I would say the same applies to the Minerva. How so? Episode 44, around 19:15, the Minerva takes off and is shown with extra Thrusters. Now, I do have in mind that the Minerva needs to reach Space ASAP, yet it does prove that the Minerva's speed isn't above that of the AA, in fact it might be slower. In episode 45, if the Minerva was in such a hurry to destroy the Requiem, then why were the boosters off. It could have used that extra speed to get to it even faster. The AA takes off in episode 45 with no thrusters and reaches space. The AA has more weapons as stated before than the Minerva, allowing it to be more offensive and giving it a stronger defense than the Minerva. Further, I disagree that the Minerva's Taunhauser can recharge faster (without any proof since you demand proof, it is fair), it is just an assumption made. I would rather say that the Taunhauser does take time to charge (episode 23 & 34). The same it takes the AA to charge its Lohengrins. The advantage of these positron cannon's would be the AA's though, since it has two of them, doing double the damage than the Minerva's single cannon. The AA would suffer severe damage in such a battle, but come out victorious over the Minerva, Final Word!

Lastly, I hope this could take on a mature form in the spirit of good arguments. An argument is a claim, supported by reasons and evidence. It does not have to change the views of others towards the objective of your own claim, rather you will accomplish the same mission if your argument is respectful, well done, thought out in such a way that it may not create support but at least respect from your readers. Argument comes from the Latin word of "argentum" which means to make clear. I hope this becomes a respectful and thoughtful debate!

[Splash!]

@ naruto 22
arent the the valiant railguns the wun the AA uses under water to try and hit the minerva in episode 43. Well from what i have seen they are much better than the minerva's isolde.
As for the part about the lohegrin, i agree with curium and let us remember that the AA has 2 while the minerva only has 1 tannhauser. On top of that, AA can go underwater, but i believe the minerva probably has a higher MS carrying capacity(Not sure someone check this) and in large scale battle that can probably prove to be more decisive than the armaments.

[XwingRob]

Simple, Archangel engages Minerva and launches Mwu in the Sky Grasper. AA wins.

What? You said no mobile suits. i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

[Curium]

Originally posted by: XwingRob
Simple, Archangel engages Minerva and launches Mwu in the Sky Grasper. AA wins.

What? You said no mobile suits.

The Sky Grasper is a Fighter. It isn't usable in Deep Space. He would have to use either his Mobious Zero, or a variation of the Sky Grasper called the FXet-565 Cosmograsper (http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/seed-msv/fxet-565.htm).

[aznimperialx]

AA probably wins. It has more sturdyness than the minvera

[Curium]

Originally posted by: aznimperialx
AA probably wins. It has more sturdyness than the minvera

That is a good point, but I will expand on it a little, and branch out.

The Archangel doesn't seem to have a lot of wasted space, it is fully loaded with weaponry, but not excessivly large. The Minerva on the other hand seems to be larger then it really needs to be. It has to have that seperate area just to store the Impulse's special catapult plus all the various Impulse parts and spares (I still think the Impulse system is rediculous). Since Mobile Suits are banned in this scenario, the whole Impulse thing is a waste of space. With the extra size Minerva doesn't really seem to use it for extra veaponry, it just makes it into a bigger target that is easier to hit. Just looking at the Minerva, it looks awfully similar to the AA except with the front added on. If the front part is destroyed the Minerva may be able to continue to operate, but they would lose a good deal of their weaponry (Tannhauser, Isolade, probably some missle launchers).

[naruto22]

Please people, note that the scenario set is a SPACE BATTLE. That is why earlier I mentioned that Archangel's submersive abilities are non-applicable in the fight.

Reason I discounted mobile suits from the battle is because too often have the GUNDAMs been used as deus ex machinas, plot devices that save the day and their power cannot be reliably measured due to Fukuda's imagination which seems to be they can do anything.

That is why the scope of this discussion is limited to capital ship capabilities and the competencies of their crew.

As the instigator of this debate, I hope you will accept me as the one to control the scope of this discussion. Hence if you want to add mobile suits to the mix, please tell me so I can define the situation into a plausible one. For example, if you want to put Asuran and Kira in CIC or gunnery, please do so although I doubt either one knows how to do that job as well as Mirilia or their counterparts.

Anyway, some replies to earlier quotes:



Ramius is a veteran captain, with several years experience. She played a curcial role in the last war. Further, she has shown herself to be very competent and to maintain complete composure while under pressure

Missle launchers will still work, they're located on the sides, just like Arcnagels is located on its side "fins". But Archangel is the same, too many weapons are aimed forward. Aft side, they have no weaonpry except the CIWS. Oh, AA's railguns can turn so it still can fire from behind. Buts its the least damaging of AA's weapons.
Actually, she didn't on some occassions. Like I said, she sometimes let emotions take over, such as when Mwu La Flaga was blasted apart by the Dominion (Gundam Seed Phase 50). She completely broke down in the middle of a raging battle, only gathering enough composure to order the Archangel to return fire. Base on her battle with Natarle, I can't say she is great in stategic and tactics as well.

Then again, neither is Talia. Both haven't shown that they're military geniuses, meerly competent captains. But I agree that at least Maryu knows what she is fighting for. Unlike Talia and the kids at Minerva. And she has handled greater pressure than Talia has experienced in the entire Gundam Seed Destiny series, like piloting Archangel since Day One, dropping in the middle of ZAFT territory and fighting all the way to Alaska. Granted Kira was a huge factor but the fact is that she held the crew together like a family.

Talia on the other hand, well, like I said, no personality.

Srike Freedom, I have to disagree with you on the speed advantage of Minerva. She is definitely built more aerodynamic that Archangel's odd shape. As for the comment about Archangel not using boosters to get to space, kindly look again, carefully at the back fins of the Archangel as it took off. You will see that there are some sort of boosters attached there.

Minerva's speed is further proven in episode 40 where they travelled from Gibraltar Spain (not sure which route they took, either way they have to cross either the Asian continent the Americas (doubtful since Atlantic Federation aka USA is controlling hte Americas.)) in only 1 day. Remember that they only left Gibraltar shortly after ZAFT attacked ORB. And the battle didn't even last one day before the Minerva entered the fray. Archangel took a few weeks to reach Alaska from Egypt/Libya. Granted they were repeatedly attacked but nevertheless, the process took 10 episodes, which can be translated into a day each. Minus 5 days worth of attacks and you get a 5 day journey to Alaska.

This is not a very good argument, but its on screen evidence.

Can't believe I'm defending Minerva and its crew of pansies. Oh well, its a bunch of pansies piloting a fast ship that easily beats Archangel in terms of aesthetics.

I stand by my belief that Minerva has the speed advantage. But AA has more guns than Minerva.



If the front part is destroyed the Minerva may be able to continue to operate, but they would lose a good deal of their weaponry (Tannhauser, Isolade, probably some missle launchers).

[Terracosmo]

Who's to say that Ramius has more experience than Talia? It should not be blatantly assumed by anyone that Talia doesn't have any experience compared to the prior... also what do you mean, naruto22, "no personality"? How does Ramius have anymore personality than she does? They both have pasts which hasn't been deeply delved into (out of which Talia's is much more intriguating since the whole child issue of hers hasn't been shown yet), other than that we only know that they are both competent captains who had issues with their higher-ups (Talia doesn't approve of Gil's actions many times, and Ramius had fights with various EA officers in Seed).

[LokeXero]

Originally posted by: Strike Freedom
Overall, both ships match up pretty equally. Though the Archangel is slow as pointed out, I would say the same applies to the Minerva. How so? Episode 44, around 19:15, the Minerva takes off and is shown with extra Thrusters. Now, I do have in mind that the Minerva needs to reach Space ASAP, yet it does prove that the Minerva's speed isn't above that of the AA, in fact it might be slower. In episode 45, if the Minerva was in such a hurry to destroy the Requiem, then why were the boosters off. It could have used that extra speed to get to it even faster.

Those booster were only needed for launch purposes, Same in Seed when AA goes to space. Theres no drag in space, hence it doesnt even need the thrusters to be going once it clears earths atmosphere and since there is no drag on the moon they arnt needed anymore. That being said, When AA was running from Minerva, AA couldnt outrun Minerva which is why AA submerged and Talia let them go, hence Speed for Minerva > Speed of AA.



Originally posted by: Strike Freedom
The AA takes off in episode 45 with no thrusters and reaches space. The AA has more weapons as stated before than the Minerva, allowing it to be more offensive and giving it a stronger defense than the Minerva.

Maybe so, AA wasnt is a hurry to stop Djibril though were they, Hence they could take there time... AA might have a power advantage over Minerva but Minervas speed allows it to get behind AA and shoot the majority of weapons into the back of AA...

[Strike Freedom]

Originally posted by: naruto22
Please people, note that the scenario set is a SPACE BATTLE. That is why earlier I mentioned that Archangel's submersive abilities are non-applicable in the fight.

Reason I discounted mobile suits from the battle is because too often have the GUNDAMs been used as deus ex machinas, plot devices that save the day and their power cannot be reliably measured due to Fukuda's imagination which seems to be they can do anything.

That is why the scope of this discussion is limited to capital ship capabilities and the competencies of their crew.

As the instigator of this debate, I hope you will accept me as the one to control the scope of this discussion. Hence if you want to add mobile suits to the mix, please tell me so I can define the situation into a plausible one. For example, if you want to put Asuran and Kira in CIC or gunnery, please do so although I doubt either one knows how to do that job as well as Mirilia or their counterparts.

Anyway, some replies to earlier quotes:



Ramius is a veteran captain, with several years experience. She played a curcial role in the last war. Further, she has shown herself to be very competent and to maintain complete composure while under pressure

Missle launchers will still work, they're located on the sides, just like Arcnagels is located on its side "fins". But Archangel is the same, too many weapons are aimed forward. Aft side, they have no weaonpry except the CIWS. Oh, AA's railguns can turn so it still can fire from behind. Buts its the least damaging of AA's weapons.
Actually, she didn't on some occassions. Like I said, she sometimes let emotions take over, such as when Mwu La Flaga was blasted apart by the Dominion (Gundam Seed Phase 50). She completely broke down in the middle of a raging battle, only gathering enough composure to order the Archangel to return fire. Base on her battle with Natarle, I can't say she is great in stategic and tactics as well.

Then again, neither is Talia. Both haven't shown that they're military geniuses, meerly competent captains. But I agree that at least Maryu knows what she is fighting for. Unlike Talia and the kids at Minerva. And she has handled greater pressure than Talia has experienced in the entire Gundam Seed Destiny series, like piloting Archangel since Day One, dropping in the middle of ZAFT territory and fighting all the way to Alaska. Granted Kira was a huge factor but the fact is that she held the crew together like a family.

Talia on the other hand, well, like I said, no personality.

Srike Freedom, I have to disagree with you on the speed advantage of Minerva. She is definitely built more aerodynamic that Archangel's odd shape. As for the comment about Archangel not using boosters to get to space, kindly look again, carefully at the back fins of the Archangel as it took off. You will see that there are some sort of boosters attached there.

Minerva's speed is further proven in episode 40 where they travelled from Gibraltar Spain (not sure which route they took, either way they have to cross either the Asian continent the Americas (doubtful since Atlantic Federation aka USA is controlling hte Americas.)) in only 1 day. Remember that they only left Gibraltar shortly after ZAFT attacked ORB. And the battle didn't even last one day before the Minerva entered the fray. Archangel took a few weeks to reach Alaska from Egypt/Libya. Granted they were repeatedly attacked but nevertheless, the process took 10 episodes, which can be translated into a day each. Minus 5 days worth of attacks and you get a 5 day journey to Alaska.

This is not a very good argument, but its on screen evidence.

Can't believe I'm defending Minerva and its crew of pansies. Oh well, its a bunch of pansies piloting a fast ship that easily beats Archangel in terms of aesthetics.

I stand by my belief that Minerva has the speed advantage. But AA has more guns than Minerva.



If the front part is destroyed the Minerva may be able to continue to operate, but they would lose a good deal of their weaponry (Tannhauser, Isolade, probably some missle launchers).


My assumptions are for GSD, not GS. We're talking about the current Seed series. Of course Ramius would not have been composed as she is all her life. BUT in GSD she has yet to lose that composure. I concede that in GS she lost it when Mwu went what seemily seemed bye bye, now resurrected from the dead by Fukada. Yet, my assumption (which I thought was to be understood by everyone) is that this argument is only in terms of the present which would be GSD. So therefore, my argument stands as valid and strong on that assumption.

About the Minerva being faster than the AA, I will change my view on that argument as of the moment. Your argument as well as the others that Minerva should be faster. So it gives the Minerva an advantage. Yet what good was that speed when the Minerva battled the AA in episode 42? This is really a question I pose. The battle seemed pretty even between the two ships, although the AA had a slight advantage cause of the skygrasper. I still stand with the facts that I have given, that the Minerva would most likely lose in battle to the AA from the arguments I posted above.

[Strike Freedom]

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
Who's to say that Ramius has more experience than Talia? It should not be blatantly assumed by anyone that Talia doesn't have any experience compared to the prior... also what do you mean, naruto22, "no personality"? How does Ramius have anymore personality than she does? They both have pasts which hasn't been deeply delved into (out of which Talia's is much more intriguating since the whole child issue of hers hasn't been shown yet), other than that we only know that they are both competent captains who had issues with their higher-ups (Talia doesn't approve of Gil's actions many times, and Ramius had fights with various EA officers in Seed).


That is true Terra, but for that mere reason that we do not know, we must go with what we do know. They may have equal experience, Talia may have more experience, the problem with these scenarios is that it is NOT necessilary true. Therefore, you must work with the evidence you have, that is why Ramius as of now from what is blatantly true has more experience than Gladys. This strengthens my arguments since I am working off the facts that I have, not the possibilities of what could be (since that would be a major weakness in my argument).

[Terracosmo]

That makes no sense. You don't achieve the rank Talia has from just sitting around. Just because it hasn't actually been shown in the anime doesn't mean that it can't be included in an argument.

[LokeXero]

Actually i think talia has shown enough of her tactical and strategic knowledge for her past as an officer to be included in the debate...

[xat]

Originally posted by: naruto22
Srike Freedom, I have to disagree with you on the speed advantage of Minerva. She is definitely built more aerodynamic that Archangel's odd shape. As for the comment about Archangel not using boosters to get to space, kindly look again, carefully at the back fins of the Archangel as it took off. You will see that there are some sort of boosters attached there.

Minerva's speed is further proven in episode 40 where they travelled from Gibraltar Spain (not sure which route they took, either way they have to cross either the Asian continent the Americas (doubtful since Atlantic Federation aka USA is controlling hte Americas.)) in only 1 day. Remember that they only left Gibraltar shortly after ZAFT attacked ORB. And the battle didn't even last one day before the Minerva entered the fray. Archangel took a few weeks to reach Alaska from Egypt/Libya. Granted they were repeatedly attacked but nevertheless, the process took 10 episodes, which can be translated into a day each. Minus 5 days worth of attacks and you get a 5 day journey to Alaska.


Quick note: since we are within the bounds of space, the only time aerodynamics applies is when both ships head for space from an atmospheric setting (and vice versa). With no air friction in space, aerodynamics applies far less. I'm thinking that a better arguement would be to take mass into consideration, and how much power it takes to propel that mass (I don't actually know how much each vessel's mass is though).

I wonder if episode 34 can shed some light on the speed thing. Minerva pursues the AA, but the only time it actually shows an 'advantage in speed' is after the AA does a hard turn to avoid a head-on collision with Minerva (Minerva's "catch-up" is shown on-screen from another room), although it could be because AA lost speed due to its maneuver. From that point on, Kira told the crew of the AA to direct it towards the sea, and while doing so maintains a fair distance from the Minerva. Towards the conclusion of the episode, someone from the Minerva crew mentions that they're escaping -- I'd think that if Minerva was faster than the AA, such would not have been the case.

[Strike Freedom]

Originally posted by: LokeXero


Originally posted by: Strike Freedom
Overall, both ships match up pretty equally. Though the Archangel is slow as pointed out, I would say the same applies to the Minerva. How so? Episode 44, around 19:15, the Minerva takes off and is shown with extra Thrusters. Now, I do have in mind that the Minerva needs to reach Space ASAP, yet it does prove that the Minerva's speed isn't above that of the AA, in fact it might be slower. In episode 45, if the Minerva was in such a hurry to destroy the Requiem, then why were the boosters off. It could have used that extra speed to get to it even faster.

Those booster were only needed for launch purposes, Same in Seed when AA goes to space. Theres no drag in space, hence it doesnt even need the thrusters to be going once it clears earths atmosphere and since there is no drag on the moon they arnt needed anymore. That being said, When AA was running from Minerva, AA couldnt outrun Minerva which is why AA submerged and Talia let them go, hence Speed for Minerva > Speed of AA.



I agree, you are absolutely right. However, I am basing my arguments solely on the present of what is GSD. I do not want to compare then to now, rather ship to ship using only the present series. Why? Most of my arguments are based on that. Why? The AA now is being commanded differently by Ramius than in SEED, she has matured and developed as a captain. Things are different, so comparing the past AA to the present seems a bit irrational.

[Strike Freedom]

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
That makes no sense. You don't achieve the rank Talia has from just sitting around. Just because it hasn't actually been shown in the anime doesn't mean that it can't be included in an argument.

What makes no sense? I never said anything about Talia's rank Terra, I acknowledge you might be right, but until it becomes fact, I will use only the facts I have which does not include Gladys past i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

[Strike Freedom]

Originally posted by: xat


Originally posted by: naruto22
Srike Freedom, I have to disagree with you on the speed advantage of Minerva. She is definitely built more aerodynamic that Archangel's odd shape. As for the comment about Archangel not using boosters to get to space, kindly look again, carefully at the back fins of the Archangel as it took off. You will see that there are some sort of boosters attached there.

Minerva's speed is further proven in episode 40 where they travelled from Gibraltar Spain (not sure which route they took, either way they have to cross either the Asian continent the Americas (doubtful since Atlantic Federation aka USA is controlling hte Americas.)) in only 1 day. Remember that they only left Gibraltar shortly after ZAFT attacked ORB. And the battle didn't even last one day before the Minerva entered the fray. Archangel took a few weeks to reach Alaska from Egypt/Libya. Granted they were repeatedly attacked but nevertheless, the process took 10 episodes, which can be translated into a day each. Minus 5 days worth of attacks and you get a 5 day journey to Alaska.


Quick note: since we are within the bounds of space, the only time aerodynamics applies is when both ships head for space from an atmospheric setting (and vice versa). With no air friction in space, aerodynamics applies far less. I'm thinking that a better arguement would be to take mass into consideration, and how much power it takes to propel that mass (I don't actually know how much each vessel weighs though).

I wonder if episode 34 can shed some light on the speed thing. Minerva pursues the AA, but the only time it actually shows an 'advantage in speed' is after the AA does a hard turn to avoid a head-on collision with Minerva (Minerva's "catch-up" is shown on-screen from another room), although it could be because AA lost speed due to its maneuver. From that point on, Kira told the crew of the AA to direct it towards the sea, and while doing so maintains a fair distance from the Minerva. Towards the conclusion of the episode, someone from the Minerva crew mentions that they're escaping -- I'd think that if Minerva was faster than the AA, such would not have been the case.


Good evidence there, I agree, now my view shifts once again, I will remain neutral on the speed thing...I will do some more research when I have the time...but very good observation

[SkyReaper]

Sorry for butting in, SF seems to hold the same opinions on the matter as I have, but I just want to add one little thing.

Even though the Minerva might have better speed then AA, in a battle situation, I don't think the diference is high enough to influence the outcome. A competent pilot, even while using a slightly slower machine will never turn his back to his enemy unless circumstances force him to do so, or if the enemy machine has a VERRY significant diference in speed AND agility.

Anyone here who has experiance at playing Armored Core (Giant robot game for PS2) would know what I'm talking about. An armored core with tank threads can still manuver in ways to keep a midweight in front of him for the entire duration of the battle, unless the midweight decides to fly over the tank, making both machines be back to back. A lightweight on the other hand will have little to no trouble at getting and staying behind the tank.

This might seem a little wierd for me to bring in situations from an other source to back up an argument, but in this case, I believe that anyone with battle experiance would try to do the same, given the oportunity.

[Black_Wing]

I vote archangel since captain Maryu Ramius has the milf factor.

Besides she is a better technican if you look all over in seed the archangel has managed to get thru many tough situations when being prused by zaft or the eaf.
She also has a good relation ship with crew and are more experience.

Minevera crew for the most part does listen to gladys ex. rey and shinn breaking out stellar. Arthur his always liek wowo what do i do and is a bad co captian.

Also the archangel has the kira effect. If you blow it up it will always come back .

there i conclude that AA would indeed own the minerva

[naruto22]

Regarding my earlier aruments FOR Minerva's speed, I realised that I made an error. I was suppose to be depicting a space scenario yet I used data evidence based on an atmospheric situation.

Strike Freedom, I think I erred in bringing up the whole speed thing. In this battle, they won't need speed any more since they already encoutnered one another.

I think the argument should shift to MANERUVERABILITY, not speed.

Remember that both AA and Minerva suffer from a design flaw that focuses all weapons in front. Except for missle launchers and CIWS, they have pratically no weapons in the aft section nor do they have any underneath their bellies as well. So now its a battle of who can shoot each other's backside or belly.

Extrapolating Archangel's performance in atmosphere, i would like to point out the battle over the Red Sea during phase 23, or 24 of GS. The Archangel can roll over even in atmosphere in order to bring its Gottfried guns to shoot into the ocean. And in the battle of Alaska, the Archangel can dodge missle barrages in an instant.

More recently in phase 34, the Archangel dodged a near point blank range shot of Minerva's Isolde shell cannons by "Leap frogging" over the Minerva. Remember that this was when they were barely a few hundre meters fromeach other.

Minerva has not shown any of fantastic maneuvers such as the ones I cited above as far as I can remember. Well, they did dodge the positron cannon back in the desert so i guess its doesn't skimp on maneuverability. More recently in Phase 42, the Minerva always seem to be able to get behind Archangel. This may be the reason why Maryu chose to submerge the AA, where the AA can attack with impunity at the Minverva.

Now I know in space, most of the friction and difficulty in maneuvering a ship becomes different and disappear since in vacuum, there is no friction. But I'm using their atmosphere capabilities to get a gauge of their maneuverability.

One last comment about the speed comparison between Minerva and Archangel. Archangel since GS, is said to be slower than a Nazca Class Cruiser. Minerva is built to be the fastest ship in ZAFT, meaning its faster than the Nazcas. Which means it is faster than the AA unless AA does some serious upgrading. But AA's only upgrade in GSD is the submersible abilities.

Let's put in another factor into the battle: their respective Executive Officers.

Archangel: Amagi

The former EXO of Takemikazuchi who served Todaka. Almost zero is known about him but he instantly adapted from being a carrier EXO to a battlehsip (AA) EXO. He is first seen as the EXO of AA during the hunting of AA by ZAFT forces in episode 34. He demonstrated excellent knowledge of the AA abilities, using appropriate weapons and remaining cool under pressure despite being outnumbered, outgunned and moreover adopting the NO KILL policy of the AA crew.

Minerva: Arthur Trine.

First of all, I would like to note that as EXO, he hasn't really done anything wrong. He follows his orders, uses the Minerva's weapons to the best of its capabilities (as demonstrated in episode 42 where he nearly scored a shot on the AA using the Parcifal missles if not for the intervention of Mwu La Flaga) and hasn't really panicked in battle.

But for the love of God, are you all sick of his Naruto like expressions whenever something suprising happens? All the "HHHHHHHHUUUUUUUHHHHHH"!!!!! WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!! SO NA, BAKANA!!!! AAAHHHHHH!!!!! Also the guy can't think beyond his small mind, like when Asuran Zala was planning the attack on the desert stronghold. He actually dared to imply that Asuran was afraid or couldn't fly down into the caves to attack the positron cannon RIGHT IN FRONT OF EVERYBODY. What kind of idiot questions his superior officer? To the idiot, he just happens to think Asuran is a turncoat who came back and can't be trusted, and he could never really accept Asuran back into ZAFT.

None of this is relevant to the battle above, I just wanted to complain about the dickhead Arthur. In Episode 45, he also annoyed me greatly by giving the BIG EXCLAMATION when he announced minerva's mission to attackt he moon base. Oh please, you are still suprised that you are given dificult missions. Please pilot a GINN and get shot please. And I'm talking about the first GINN in Gundam Seed.

[xat]

Ack, correcting myself on some jargon; I don't know how much mass each vessel is composed of--I had used "weight" before, my bad. As far as AA's upgrades, I myself wouldn't know if there were any unapparent upgrades in AA's tech. The two (Minerva/AA) are of different generations so reality that AA can proficiently compete against the Minerva pushes me towards believing that since its supposed retirement up to its re-use, it may have undergone significant upgrades--including mobility tech (thrusters, etc.). It'd explain why the AA's speed is comparable. On that note it's also possible that the AA's submersive ability is the only 'apparent' upgrade. Other upgrades may not have been mentioned, however they may be there.

[SkyReaper]

Originally posted by: naruto22
One last comment about the speed comparison between Minerva and Archangel. Archangel since GS, is said to be slower than a Nazca Class Cruiser. Minerva is built to be the fastest ship in ZAFT, meaning its faster than the Nazcas. Which means it is faster than the AA unless AA does some serious upgrading. But AA's only upgrade in GSD is the submersible abilities.

But again, to me the dif in speeds is still AT MOST the same diferance as that from a heavyweight compared to a midweight Armored Core. Sorry if I'm getting annoying with this. ^_^;

I'd immagine that a Nazca class battle ship is faster then the AA, but not so much as to make it aweinspireingly diferent. In other words, to me it'd still count as a heavyweight in speed comparison. Just a faster one with the Eternal being a little faster and the Minerva being a little faster then then the Eternal (I'd assume). i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

An other thing. With all the manuvering needed in a battle, I doubt that even the minerva could make any serious use of it's speed advantage as any machine will lose speed when turning due to friction and a few other factors that I don't know enough about. ^_^;

To me, a machine that's said to go real fast only means that it'll get from point A to point B before anyone else on a straight lline. Acceleration and manuverability are two other factors and the key elements to be used in battle situations. (Well, ofcourse weaponry, shielding and neat gadgets also count in this. ^_^; )

To finish up, I don't think the minerva has any more carying cappacity then the AA. Well, except for the impulse system which I laughed at when they said it was a new and more eficient way of using a gundam. (With all the spare parts, if those conceptors had half a brain, they would have assinged two other core splendors and pilots to the minerva. THEN it would have been eficient. 3 gundams with interchangeable parts in one ship and room to spare. Heck, if that's spreading the butter too thin, then AT LEAST put a second Core Splendor. Make the most use of those spare parts! i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif )

[Aramis]

I'd say that they have equal chances in a fair cat fight. they won't really allow each other to end the fight quickly with the positron cannons, so all they can do is circle around and barrage eachother with turrets and missiles, and the first to score some lucky hits on the other's engine or weaponry will win.
But when either ship gets such an advantage, the opponent will likely try to flee. Archangel can submerge and shoo the Minerva away by continuing to fire from underwater when on the seas, but the Minerva can simply run away whenever they want unless their engines are badly crippled.
SO there's one thing I could say about 'em...the Minerva has better chances to get out alive, but not really win the battle.

[SkyReaper]

I wonder if it'd actually be a good thing to put weapons on the belly? The sturn NEEDS a decent weapon, that much is for sure, but the belly of those ships already have a function. Atmosphearic re-entry shielding. If they started to pack weapons there, wouldn't it reduce the ship's capabilities?

Sorry for the random and out of topic thought. Just poped into my head. ^_^;

Seriously though, there are only two advantages to the Minerva in my opinion. The fact that more of it's weapons can pivot to the side (the beam canons and that shell based gun to which I keep forgetting the name while AA can only pivot it's beam canons sideways and rail canons up/down and maybe lightly to the left/right depending what side is fireing) and the fact that it can get to whatever battlefield in record time.

Oh! It also has nifty deployable wings! </sarcasm>

So I guess in battle, they do have one advantage over the AA, the trick would be to keep the Minerva to the AA's side as much as possible to avoid it's lohengrins and rail canons.

Now I wonder... Why wasn't the AA's rail canons built to pivot enough to cover the sturn and belly to some extent? o_O;

[Curium]

Originally posted by: naruto22
Minerva's speed is further proven in episode 40 where they travelled from Gibraltar Spain (not sure which route they took, either way they have to cross either the Asian continent the Americas (doubtful since Atlantic Federation aka USA is controlling hte Americas.)) in only 1 day. Remember that they only left Gibraltar shortly after ZAFT attacked ORB. And the battle didn't even last one day before the Minerva entered the fray. Archangel took a few weeks to reach Alaska from Egypt/Libya. Granted they were repeatedly attacked but nevertheless, the process took 10 episodes, which can be translated into a day each. Minus 5 days worth of attacks and you get a 5 day journey to Alaska.


To be fair, besides the attacks that happened they had a stop at Orb, and they were moving carefully trying to avoid ZAFT's normal patrols. Orb is somewhere in the south pacific, so it was out of the way when trying to go to Alaska. If the AA had taken a direct route from Africa through the air they probably could have gotten there much quicker.



I was going to point out the AA "acrobatic" maneuvers from SEED and Destiny but others already have. In comparison the two points for the Minerva that were brought up are inaccurate.

First they mentioned it dodging the Lohingrin in episode 18, but the did that by crashing into the ground. Fortunately for them it was just loose sand, and not something more solid.

Second, remember the AA had to basically stop for a brief time to allow the Sky Grasper to land. Assuming the Minerva's pilot has any real skill, I would think they would take advantage of that.

[SkyReaper]

Hey, I never said that the Minerva had much going for it. i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

Ooh! It also has a nice helicopter pad in the back! </sarcasm... for real this time>

[naruto22]

Originally posted by: SkyReaper
I wonder if it'd actually be a good thing to put weapons on the belly? The sturn NEEDS a decent weapon, that much is for sure, but the belly of those ships already have a function. Atmosphearic re-entry shielding. If they started to pack weapons there, wouldn't it reduce the ship's capabilities?

Sorry for the random and out of topic thought. Just poped into my head. ^_^;

Seriously though, there are only two advantages to the Minerva in my opinion. The fact that more of it's weapons can pivot to the side (the beam canons and that shell based gun to which I keep forgetting the name while AA can only pivot it's beam canons sideways and rail canons up/down and maybe lightly to the left/right depending what side is fireing) and the fact that it can get to whatever battlefield in record time.

Oh! It also has nifty deployable wings! </sarcasm>

So I guess in battle, they do have one advantage over the AA, the trick would be to keep the Minerva to the AA's side as much as possible to avoid it's lohengrins and rail canons.

Now I wonder... Why wasn't the AA's rail canons built to pivot enough to cover the sturn and belly to some extent? o_O;

I think the design flaw of the AA is that it CAN enter atmosphere. That's why it didn't have any belly weapons. They intended for it to be used as a naval vessel at the same time. But seriously, you would think they would have installed a load of death charges unto Archangel. In phase 23 or24, the pilot of the AA had to roll over the AA to shoot the GOOHNS with the Gottfried cannons.

AA's firepower is all to the front. Same as Minerva. As for pivoting weapons, well Minerva has only 1 more weapon to bear against AA, the Isolde shell cannons. So if they keep fighting side by side, AA will only have one Gottfried cannon and missles agaitns Minerva while Minerva has Isolde, Tristan and missles against Minerva.

But all AA has to do is roll so that its top is facing the Minerva and suddenly, you have 2 Gottfried cannons and 2 Valiant rail guns vs Minerva's 2 Tristans and 1 Isolde.

Again, its a battle of tactics. Whoever is smart enough to get a potshot at the bridge wins.

Ah nuts, I just remembered another advantage Minerva has. It can shield the bridge into a less conspicous position to extend survival possibilities.

[KapsLocked]

Originally posted by: Strike Freedom


Originally posted by: xat
I wonder if episode 34 can shed some light on the speed thing. Minerva pursues the AA, but the only time it actually shows an 'advantage in speed' is after the AA does a hard turn to avoid a head-on collision with Minerva (Minerva's "catch-up" is shown on-screen from another room), although it could be because AA lost speed due to its maneuver. From that point on, Kira told the crew of the AA to direct it towards the sea, and while doing so maintains a fair distance from the Minerva. Towards the conclusion of the episode, someone from the Minerva crew mentions that they're escaping -- I'd think that if Minerva was faster than the AA, such would not have been the case.


Good evidence there, I agree, now my view shifts once again, I will remain neutral on the speed thing...I will do some more research when I have the time...but very good observation

Hmm.... I'd think that they stopped the chase because AA got to the sea before Minerva caught up. Even though Minerva may be faster, if the AA got to the sea, it would be very difficult to hit it with weapons that would be effective.

What was the weapon that Minerva used on AA to tear up its armor? Or was it someone else doing that to Minerva?

[xat]

Originally posted by: KapsLocked


Originally posted by: Strike Freedom


Originally posted by: xat
I wonder if episode 34 can shed some light on the speed thing. Minerva pursues the AA, but the only time it actually shows an 'advantage in speed' is after the AA does a hard turn to avoid a head-on collision with Minerva (Minerva's "catch-up" is shown on-screen from another room), although it could be because AA lost speed due to its maneuver. From that point on, Kira told the crew of the AA to direct it towards the sea, and while doing so maintains a fair distance from the Minerva. Towards the conclusion of the episode, someone from the Minerva crew mentions that they're escaping -- I'd think that if Minerva was faster than the AA, such would not have been the case.


Good evidence there, I agree, now my view shifts once again, I will remain neutral on the speed thing...I will do some more research when I have the time...but very good observation

Hmm.... I'd think that they stopped the chase because AA got to the sea before Minerva caught up. Even though Minerva may be faster, if the AA got to the sea, it would be very difficult to hit it with weapons that would be effective.


This begs the question; exactly how far apart were the two?

Again from episode 34, the following gives the rate at which the Minerva caught up with AA:
http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/7417/snapshot200508310830233aa.jpg

By the end of the sequence:
http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/7523/snapshot200508310831064ce.jpg

This sequence is about two seconds long, if that matters to anyone i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

Note how far the AA got during this sequence vs. Minerva? Yet somehow-perhaps by Fukuda magic or by technical recovery-they (the AA/crew) were able to pick up their pace and even regain whatever distance they had lost from the Minerva, allowing for their escape. Keep in mind this is also against atmospheric conditions. In this case, the Minerva's aerodynamic structure should have allowed it to move faster, whereas the ArchAngel's structure should have provided less of such a benefit--I'm sure some even believe that its structure is even a hinderance to its speed within atmosphere.

[DDBen]

Honestly I have yet to be remotely impressed by the Minerva. Its weapons have all been damaged at one point or another and several times the damage was rather serious. I personally had a Issue in 43 where Neo takes out the Isolde and then later that day with no noteable repair time they are off to space. That completely aside in every battle between the 2 ships the AA has been in a situation where they were completely outnumbered and in several cases in a unfavorable tactical position and the Minerva still couldn't do any serious damage. Yes when the AA was fleeing and specifically avoiding fireing at the Minerva it did damage there engines but that has been the extent of it.

The Minerva to me seems simply to be a subpar carrier ship that at the Beginning of GSD even needed to have Mobile suits on the ship defending it with only one or two units (3 for the one battle with Heine). With which it attacked while 2 suits (rei and Lunimaria) were basically left to guard the ship. In direct contrast the AA is a Battleship essentially made to fight with or without Mobile suits. This to me atleast gives it a HUGE advantage in a one on one battle with the Minerva. Essentially we are compairing a heavily armed battleship to a lightly armed Carrier ship. Note that also both ships are Carriers and I do believe the AA also has a greater storage capacity.

[PSJ]

Archangel wins because that boat got Kira. I win this agrument.

Seriously though, The Archangel got those beam deflector thingies and the Minerva got that slow ass Isolde cannon and one positron cannon. Archangel wins they armament part of this.

Now for mobility. Archangel did 1/4 of a barrel roll in a matter of seconds when the Isolde fired at them, this also shows that the Isolde only can hit targets that doesn't move, god what a shitty gun. We have not seen Minerva do any type of impressive evading yet, it is still one heck of a good ship though. I would call this round a tie even if the Archangel did evade the Isolde that one time. There mobility has shown to be quite similar even though the Minerva has been damage, the Minerva has been in more Full scale battles than the Archangel was back in SEED.

The reason Minerva always had Rey and Luna guard it is because they have been in full scale battles the entire time. When the Archangel were in full scale battles they needed protection from Mwu, Mwu in Strike does the same amount of job Rey and Luna does. Also the storage capacity has nothing to do with ship vs. ship battle.

I would say that the Archangel got a slight advantage over the Minerva since the Archangel got those beam deflectors which probably would be very useful. Archangel also doesn't have an Isolde type cannon, i really hate that useless weapon it has done nothing good in the show it's just slow. Archangel also got 2 positron cannons which means they can fire 2 positron shots in a short ammount of time as opposed to Minerva's 1 shot.

[Black_Wing]

minerva is not the fastest ship in zaft. It would still be the eternal it is shorter than minerva and also weighs less. The enternal only has light weapons and the the two METEOR PACKS

[PSJ]

Eternal is a Clyne faction/three ship alliance ship not a ZAFT ship. You know Lacus got that boat and she ain't with ZAFT.

[Madell]

Zaft made the ship so technicly ZAFT owns that ship buut it is hijacked by CLyne-Faction

[Yukimura]

Originally posted by: PSJ
Eternal is a Clyne faction/three ship alliance ship not a ZAFT ship. You know Lacus got that boat and she ain't with ZAFT.


Let's not forget that ZAFT built Eternal, and thus has the plans for it's engines and such. It's not unlikely that they used or improved on their own design.

As to the battle, EXPERIANCE...

The crew of the Minerva has been through a good number of scuffles and battles, but they mostly started out as well trained rookies, except maybe Talia and Arthur (he's debateable). The ship itself is pretty much still an experiment, it never had a proper shakedown to workout the bugs and things before it was put into service, this is essentially the same as the Archangel was at the beginning, except their crew was almost entirely untrained in operating a ship. The Minerva crew is essentially at a point similar to the Archangel of SEED's last few eps. However the Minerva hasn't had any Yachin Due level battles in space yet. They're only space combat experiance was against one other ship with better tactics which they couldn't take down and against a stationary base with no battleships for defense. The crew has more combat experiance, so by now they ought to know how to react and what to do by instinct not memory.

Unfortunately, the Archangel crew still has far more experiance in Ship-to-Ship combat, especially in space.

While Minerva seemingly has more modern tech, why should we think underwater capability is the only thing they added, but that's speculation...Archangels captain has duked it out with several space capital ships and is still standing, while many of her opponents are not. What is Minerva's kill record? An aircraft carrier that sailed straight at them with no weapons, on Earth. Ramius simply has more knowledge of what to do and not to do in space combat between capital ships. Experiance generally wins over sheer power, (except in Bleach, but that's totally okay)

About the weapons, we've seen that the Tristans and Gottfrieds seem to be pretty much useless against the ablative armors of the two ships. Isolde shots are slow and Valiant's have no range of motion. Only tools actually get hit by positron cannons in the middle of a fight. Basically it'd probobly comedown to missiles, so whoever can use their missiles to the best effect would likely win in the end. (Bajirul Manuver anyone???)

[Splash!]

man, i thought Girty Lue was cooler and better than both Minerva and AA. Damn Djibril had to get into it and signify its doom.

Name: Girty Lue
Unit type: battleship
Manufacturer: Earth Alliance
Operator: Earth Alliance
First deployment: 2 October C.E. 73
Dimensions: overall length 380 meters; overall height unknown
Wingspan: unknown
Weight: unknown
Propulsion: unknown
Equipment and design features: rocket anchor, mounted on main body; Mirage Colloid
Fixed armaments: 6 x "Gottfried Mk.71" 225cm high-energy beam cannon, mounted on forward section; 38 x vertical missile launcher, mounted on main body; 16 x "Igelstellung" multi-barrel CIWS, mounted on main body

hmm seems to lack a positron cannon but its got mirage colloid and its actually got more of the regular armaments than either minerva or AA.

[KapsLocked]

Yeah... I think Djibril is not the best commander for it. The best person that commanded it is probably Neo. :\

[PSJ]

Originally posted by: Madell
Zaft made the ship so technicly ZAFT owns that ship buut it is hijacked by CLyne-Faction

Are you all morons? I know ZAFT made that pink fucking ship but it got stolen so they do not have it anymore correct? Fuck you know i am right yet you argue anyway.



Originally posted by: Yukimura


Originally posted by: PSJ
Eternal is a Clyne faction/three ship alliance ship not a ZAFT ship. You know Lacus got that boat and she ain't with ZAFT.


Let's not forget that ZAFT built Eternal, and thus has the plans for it's engines and such. It's not unlikely that they used or improved on their own design.



Why the fuck did you qoute me? What you said had nothing to do with what i said. I simply stated that Eternal is not a ZAFT vessel as of now and you go on and talk about the engines. So what if ZAFT used the Eternal's technology on other ships, it still doesn't make Eternal a ZAFT ship.

[Splash!]

its alright PSJ, no need to get pissed. Many people just quote because they want their post to look bigger, not because there is an actual need to quote. Thats just how stupid some people are

[xat]

Alternatively I saw Yukimura's quoting as more of a cross-reference to digress into another subject.

[Renishiki]

Originally posted by: KapsLocked
Yeah... I think Djibril is not the best commander for it. The best person that commanded it is probably Neo. :\

Hehe no shiti/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif Took Djibril like 5 sec:s to get Girty Lue sunk. And that made me pretty pissed off. Was hoping for some cool final showdown where the Girty Lue was gonna sink either AA or the Minerva where the last ship standing of those 2 ships were gonna sink Girty Lue with some mighty pwning with the Tannhauser or something.

[Madell]

Originally posted by: PSJ


Originally posted by: Madell
Zaft made the ship so technicly ZAFT owns that ship buut it is hijacked by CLyne-Faction

Are you all morons? I know ZAFT made that pink fucking ship but it got stolen so they do not have it anymore correct? Fuck you know i am right yet you argue anyway.



Originally posted by: Yukimura


Originally posted by: PSJ
Eternal is a Clyne faction/three ship alliance ship not a ZAFT ship. You know Lacus got that boat and she ain't with ZAFT.


Let's not forget that ZAFT built Eternal, and thus has the plans for it's engines and such. It's not unlikely that they used or improved on their own design.



Why the fuck did you qoute me? What you said had nothing to do with what i said. I simply stated that Eternal is not a ZAFT vessel as of now and you go on and talk about the engines. So what if ZAFT used the Eternal's technology on other ships, it still doesn't make Eternal a ZAFT ship.

FUCK YOU FUCKFACE

[PSJ]

Originally posted by: Madell


Originally posted by: PSJ


Originally posted by: Madell
Zaft made the ship so technicly ZAFT owns that ship buut it is hijacked by CLyne-Faction

Are you all morons? I know ZAFT made that pink fucking ship but it got stolen so they do not have it anymore correct? Fuck you know i am right yet you argue anyway.



Originally posted by: Yukimura


Originally posted by: PSJ
Eternal is a Clyne faction/three ship alliance ship not a ZAFT ship. You know Lacus got that boat and she ain't with ZAFT.


Let's not forget that ZAFT built Eternal, and thus has the plans for it's engines and such. It's not unlikely that they used or improved on their own design.



Why the fuck did you qoute me? What you said had nothing to do with what i said. I simply stated that Eternal is not a ZAFT vessel as of now and you go on and talk about the engines. So what if ZAFT used the Eternal's technology on other ships, it still doesn't make Eternal a ZAFT ship.

FUCK YOU FUCKFACE

If you just want to make it personal then write me a PM. What you did is called shit posting, i was adressing everyone that posted similar about Eternal. Also that last sentence should be "Fuck, you know i am right yet you argue anyway." so it is not a personal attack on you.

@ Splash and xat: Qouting just to make your post bigger is even more stupid than trying to connect what they qouted with their own post. About that cross reference shit, it's unnecessary to qoute in that situation.

[SkyReaper]

Just cool it you two... v_v;

Mandell, dont look for a fight. You aren't in a verry good position. Even without my intervention, if you keep up, you'll just end up looking like a fool. Trolling never ends well for the perpatrator.

And though I find PSJ a little too direct about it, it's true that quoting everything is an eyesore. Just stick to what's important plz. If not for yourself, then atleast for the other readers.

So can we please just drop this now and return to the topic?

[naruto22]

PSJ, Maddell, stop this useless insulting. This is a discussion, not a flame fest. We're here to discus a SPACE BATTLE between Archangel and Minerva. How many times must I say this? PSJ, what in the world is wrong with you? People quote to address specifically the person who was quoted to rebutt or answer their question. And you have to started the swear words which Madell replied in kind, ruining the civility of this discussion.

I demand you both apologise or I'm reporting to the moderator, if someone else hasn't already.

Hell, I never even knew that the F word could be used in the forums. I thought anyone using that word would come out gibberish.

Damn it Strike Freedom, our debate has been interrupted by immature brats.

BACK TO THE DEBATE!!!

OK, so far from what I have gathered, almost everybody is of the opinion that Archangel is more maneuverable than Minerva given the fantastic maneuvers done in both GS and GSD. In GS, they rolled over to shoot Goohn's in the water. In GSD, they dodged a point blank range shot by the Minerva.

All this seems to be in favour of AA. But for the Minerva, in episode 42, Minerva was at the advantage and was shown to be constantly on the tail of the Archangel where most of her weapons are situated. In the end, AA had to submerge to escape the Minerva. This is the only straight battle we have between the two and altough I hate to admit it, Minerva might have the advantage over AA in maneruverability if not in firepower which most of us agree AA is better.

What say you all now?

[ArcZero]

i'd say that AA would probably win. although the Minerva may be newer and possibly more advanced, the AA crew is far more experienced and have gotten out of some very sticky situations where they are outnumbered and outgunned.

and chances are i'm probably repeating what someone else said. ah wellz. i was too lazy to read all the posts. my apologies (^_^)

[PSJ]

Originally posted by: naruto22
PSJ, Maddell, stop this useless insulting. This is a discussion, not a flame fest. We're here to discus a SPACE BATTLE between Archangel and Minerva. How many times must I say this? PSJ, what in the world is wrong with you? People quote to address specifically the person who was quoted to rebutt or answer their question. And you have to started the swear words which Madell replied in kind, ruining the civility of this discussion.

I demand you both apologise or I'm reporting to the moderator, if someone else hasn't already.



The last thing we need is you continuing this. If you would have read my post you would know that i did not intend to insult anyone and i was adressing everyone that kept being annoying about the Eternal matter, i simply qouted Madell because he was one of them. I did not ruin the discussion because there were none from the begining.

On the matter of me there is nothing wrong with me, the qoute i asked about was a stupid and unneeded qoute and the qoute had one thing in common, Eternal. But that was it, the rest was entirely unrelated and that post could have been made without the qoute.

Lastly, don't act like some sort of peace bringer as the whole matter was resolved when i told Madell to take it to PM's if he wanted to keep going at it. Wouldn't you look stupid if we already apoligised over PM's?

[Splash!]

lol.... quite funny

anyways to continue the discussion

i would like to bring in the girty lue and eternal as well. Now which would seem a better ship of the four. I would have to say Girty Lue

[Strike Freedom]

Ummm....Archangel wins...since the discussion has kind of gone off topic....i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

[SkyReaper]

I guess. ^_^;

Might aswell close it to avoid any further conflict.

That is... unless someone actually has something to add to this.

[PSJ]

It doesn't need to be closed in my opinion the off topic discussion is finished and if anyone got anything to add take it to PMs.

As for the Girty Lue and Eternal in the mix, Girty lue is obviously the ship with the most fire power and Eternal is the fastest. Girty Lue also got the advantage of having Mirage colloid. Girty Lue may be a candidate but Eternal only got speed. I don't know about Girty Lue's speed and mobility though, i will still go with the Archangel.

[naruto22]

And why the hell is Girty Lue and Eternal being brought into this mix? This is a battle between Minerva and Archangel for goodness sake.

OK, can we forget about that stupid spite between you and Madell? I certainly can forget the snide comment about my interference. And what was wrong with me trying to stop the useless insulting considering this is thediscussion I intiated? Ma ta ke.....

Anyway, to all readers again, please don't bring Eternal, Girty Lue, or anyother ship for that matter into the mix.

All in favour of AA say Aye.

Aye.

[Terracosmo]

Originally posted by: SkyReaper
Might aswell close it to avoid any further conflict.

Only sucky forums moderated by morons who don't know how to "avoid conflict" would lock a perfectly good topic just because it got a little derailed.

I'm not trashing your opinion, I'm just stating that it won't happen that way here.

[Splash!]

just two ships makes it a dull and boring argument. Bring Giry Lue in the mix cause as it can be considered a battleship of a similar class to the AA and Minerva. And let us consider Neo to be in charge, not Djibril!

[Chris_Xion]

ON topic:Archangel vs Minerva,Archangel will definitely win,since Archangel has got 1 more Lohengrin and it's Valiant guns are far better than the stupid Isolde.In fact,in so many episodes the Tristan and Isolde is rarely on target.I think they only have a penchant for Positronic guns.

And Girty Lue is a good ship if used properly like Neo did.Mirage Colloid and most Gottfrieds of any ship.

[Splash!]

as well as more missile launchers than any ship

[knirfie]

Isolde seems like an artillery type weapon to me, which would be totally useless in zero-g... So AA would have the upper hand with more weaponry...

[Strike Freedom]

USS Cole would take out all of these so called ships...HAHAHAHAHA

[naruto22]

Not you too Strike Freedom.

*throws up hands in despair and frustration*

Can we at least vote now?

[Strike Freedom]

I'm just trying to add some humor as you are i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif lol...

[Curium]

Originally posted by: naruto22
Can we at least vote now?

ArchAngel

[PSJ]

Originally posted by: naruto22
Not you too Strike Freedom.

*throws up hands in despair and frustration*

Can we at least vote now?

Oh shit now you made him angry again, take cover!!!

Archangel got my vote.

[Chris_Xion]

Archangel

[naruto22]

Originally posted by: Strike Freedom
USS Cole would take out all of these so called ships...HAHAHAHAHA

Is this is the USS Cole which was attacked by a inflatable boat filled with explosives? Luckily I remembered something about it back while researching the Aegis Class Cruiser used by the ORB union. Apparently it was based on the Arleigh Burke-class "Aegis" guided missile destroyer. Pity about the 17 sailors that got killed.

anyway, back the vote. so far 4 in favour of Archangel. Myself, PSJ, Curion and Chirs Xion. Strike Freedom, you still reserving judgement or can you vote based on the available facts. Or as real as the facts can be when ur dealing with an inconsistent series like Gundam Seed Destiny.

[PSJ]

Why don't you edit this thread into a poll so we can vote?

[Gr. Inq. Karmarov]

Hi, I just joint the forum, and like to add my opinion.

At least I side with AA, because the Creaw seams to mea, as they have the more usefull expierence.
I think that Talias knwoledg is more like "everything as the ruls say".
In addition she had shown a lag off tactics in the beginning, as Athrun have to rescue the Minerva givving a good advise from the "backseat".

I don't think that the different weapons will make any differents, because a dog-fight AA VS. Minerva won't be won by pure force......

Asuming that th G's keep each other busy, I think the AA is in an advanteg because is it more compact(Dont know if this is correct written sry, I'am from Gearmany)... so it is harder to hit..

The Valints are able to aim at targets in an ca.20% range ad thr gottfrieds could be fired in an small angel, so they don block each other path.

The minearv agains is more handicapt by is design, the firing angels of ther weapons are smaller then the AA's

And at least.. they have added an hod-bath to AA, you cant tell me this is possible with out major chnages in the interior desigm...


Oh, just remembering Minerve seams to me like a try to change the battleship design off AA'class into an mulitfunction carryer... this is always a bad idea!!!!

Agai sorry for my bad English...

[Strike Freedom]

Narutofan, my vote is for.......................*drum roll*.............................ARCH ANGEL!

PSJ, thanks for the laugh, i like that post of yours regarding the anger and the taking cover i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

[smurfyy]

meh, it'll depend. if its in space, minerva will pwn. If on land(Earth) , archangel will pwn

[Splash!]

i vote for Minerva simply because the archangel crew is totally annoying

[LokeXero]

Im in agreement with splash...

[SkyReaper]

AA's got my vote all the way.

Although I think I've noticed a severe flaw that might kill any of AA's true potential.

*Looks at every sceen where they power up AA for take-off and show a monitor of the system check*

Is that thing's OS Windows? @_@;

i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

[Moon Eclipse]

Hi, kinda just going though each of the forums and checking it out. For whatever it's worth to you here's my two cents:

I believe the Minerva would win in a fight based on the scenerio and a few of my personal assumptions (opinion, whichever once you want to call them):

First off I'm not going to look at the specs of the two ships because let's face it. Truthfully either one could destroy the other. If not we could just stop there and be done with it. So the assumption maded here is that it will depend on the ability of the crew and captain.

Analysis of the crew:
Based upon what I've observed of both crews in the series I will assume that the crew of the AA is superior:
Superiority comes in the form of, they've had more experience not just in battle but also working together as a team under difficult situations, are able to take commands and carry them out promptly. Know where they're supposed to be at any given time.
My assumption here is based on the fact that crew of the AA have been through more battle scenerios and actually have more well formed and structured chain of command not only based upon ranking but mutual respect and understanding for eachother.
This is something I've seen lacking in the crew of the Minerva where even the vice captain is found away from his post during battle scenerio, orders are not given or carried out promptly at times. And the respect that's due to the captain is not always displayed as other people have put forth as arguments before.

Analysis of the captains:
Based upon limited knowledge of the history of the capatain of the Minerva I would have to say that the captain of the AA have far more experience in battle. Though in terms of ability I don't know. Both seem to be lacking. (I think I know what most of you are going to say but hey that's just what I think...) The captain of the AA lacks in battle tatics when compared to the captain of the dominion which completely out maneuvered and strategized her. As was the captain of the Minerva by Neo at the beginning of the series and by the ORB fleet. Both display a tendancy to be caught off guard and suffer for it.

The advantage the AA does have over the Minerva in this field are two very cunning individuals with commanding experience in battle. Mwu and Andrew. Both of which have far getter battle experience than either captain, and show a cunning and deviousness the two captains seems to lack. (whether it was because they were evil at the time and though of evil plots at the time I have no clue but either way they can be sneaky little...)

Given this it would seem that the Minerva is at a disadvantage up to this point and truthfully yes they are but now we'll look at the motivation of the two ship captains, which I believe to the be the deciding point

The Captain of the Minerva's only motivation is that she feels ZAFT is right and thus her orders are law. She doesn't have to worry about the consequences so much as long as she stands by the" ZAFT and the chairman are pulling the string and I trust them to do what is right in the end so I'll just do my job to the bet of my abilities"

The Captain of the AA on the other hand has only her morale conscience to guide her actions. She takes no orders, everything she does she must first justify to herself. This can leave her nice and conflicted, at time of decision. Something that almost costed her life in Gundam Seed. She still has difficulty with the concept of taking lives as seen in her actions throughout most of every battle the AA has ever been in in GSD.

This I believe to be the biggest deciding factor. Mindset. The reluctance to fight or take a life during battle time is fatal. If you can't pull the tigger at the last scene, you die. Mwu died once to save them from that mistake and given the hidden theme of "not learning from past mistakes" in GSD I think that the captain of the AA is doomed to repeat the same mistake. Given no outside interference by gundams. I don't think it likely that mwu can die again to save her from the same mistake a second time give this hypothetical situation.

I believe on the other hand that the captain of the Minerva, while still reluctant to fire, is less so and will fire when time comes. (this is of course assuming that someone like mwu or andrew doesn't just go off and pull the trigger before the captain has a chance to hesitate, cause the flip side to that is they probably have someone like rey on the minerva side that'd do the same). I my mind it would be the same reason why Shinn was able to be Kira the first time, because Kira wasn't trying to kill Shinn but Shiin was trying to kill Kira. Even though the difference in ability and Gundam Suits gave Kira the advantage Shinn was able pull the trigger in the end while Kira wasn't. Let's face it, had Kira actually wanted to kill Shinn at that point, no questions asked Shinn would be another smear on the ocean floor.