Phase 35 is out (RAW)

[Millenium-Boyz]

Saiyaman (http://bt.saiyaman.info/)
THis is the thread fro the raw

[SorC]

Hmmm, seems like a good episode. Will have to wait for a sub before I make any further comment.

[Anonyguy]

Pretty interesting episode. Rey congratulating Shinn with a smile for destroying Freedom and having that flashback of Raww dying makes me question his motives. I started wondering about Rey because he was always encouraging and defending Shinn and him helping devise a strategy to take down Freedom shows that he isn't above enjoying getting a little revenge.

*Sigh* I've been trying to stay out of the Shinn-bashing because I hate getting into these kinds of arguments but him going out of his way to purposefully antagonize Athrun about killing his friend with that smirk on his face really ticked me off. It shouldn't be that surprising that Athrun wanted to pummel him there and then.

It was kind of interesting to see non-military personnel going after Logos' big wigs. If people are using guerilla type warfare to execute them it means less for Dullindal to worry about later on in the long run. No need to hold trials or hear any testimonies if they're already dead.

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: Anonyguy
Pretty interesting episode. Rey congratulating Shinn with a smile for destroying Freedom and having that flashback of Raww dying makes me question his motives. I started wondering about Rey because he was always encouraging and defending Shinn and him helping devise a strategy to take down Freedom shows that he isn't above enjoying getting a little revenge.

*Sigh* I've been trying to stay out of the Shinn-bashing because I hate getting into these kinds of arguments but him going out of his way to purposefully antagonize Athrun about killing his friend with that smirk on his face really ticked me off. It shouldn't be that surprising that Athrun wanted to pummel him there and then.

It was kind of interesting to see non-military personnel going after Logos' big wigs. If people are using guerilla type warfare to execute them it means less for Dullindal to worry about later on in the long run. No need to hold trials or hear any testimonies if they're already dead.

I've not seen the episode yet (stuck at work), but I'm surprised Athrun wasn't waiting in the hangar with a 9mm.

[Sano]

How long does it usually take before the subbed ver. come out?

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Sano
How long does it usually take before the subbed ver. come out?

The speeed subber cellphone 2 usually has a sub out within 24 hours of the raw

[Guardian_2000]

Wanted to pummel? Athrun fully decked in him the face! It was the best scene of the whole ep. And whats with the chairman making people go happy kiddy. Maybe Rey has something and is contagious. As soon as he let Shinn know that Destiny was his. I'm also glad to see they are developing the Mwu/Neo connection more. They sorta have a conversation with him while Cagalli and Mirallia are looking over Kira. Who had nothing left of Freedom but the torso and head. We also find out why there was no boom. Kira did an emergency cut off of the nuclear reactor. I am curious what exactly AA disconnected that blew up. Shinn's gonna be pissed when he learns AA and possibly Freedom got away.

From the previews for next week it looks like Athrun finally is deserting with Lunamaria helping him escape. Theres even a changing scene thats getting mixed comments.

[Shinji Ikari]

Didn't it sound like they dissconnected an unstable engine area or something like that?

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Guardian_2000
Wanted to pummel? Athrun fully decked in him the face! It was the best scene of the whole ep. And whats with the chairman making people go happy kiddy. Maybe Rey has something and is contagious. As soon as he let Shinn know that Destiny was his. I'm also glad to see they are developing the Mwu/Neo connection more. They sorta have a conversation with him while Cagalli and Mirallia are looking over Kira. Who had nothing left of Freedom but the torso and head. We also find out why there was no boom. Kira did an emergency cut off of the nuclear reactor. I am curious what exactly AA disconnected that blew up. Shinn's gonna be pissed when he learns AA and possibly Freedom got away.

From the previews for next week it looks like Athrun finally is deserting with Lunamaria helping him escape. Theres even a changing scene thats getting mixed comments.

While not positive without a sub it looked like AA disconnected its side cannon from the back of the ship. Please note this could be blantently wrong.

As for pretty much everthing else seems that they are finnally ready to move this story along and lay off the back story for a bit.

[FelixZeroAlastor]

DID YOU GUYS CATCH THAT PUNCH!!! HELL YEAH!!! THATS WHAT I HAVE BEEN WAITNG FOR!!! GO ASURAN!!!

I am so sick of Rey's smug look. For some reason it really pisses me off. I also hated it when Shinn's face lit up after he saw Destiny. Like a child with a new toy. I am sure of Shinn's level of sanity now. VERY LOW!!! I don't think that you are supposed to smile when you are recieving a weapon of mass destruction. He is probably going to go on a killing spree later in the series. He is the only person that I think in the entire Seed series that smiled when they got a new weapon of mass destruction. I hope that someone finds a way to drop both Shinn and Rey down a couple of levels cause I am hatin their smug smiling faces right now.

That girl that Asuran was helping get undressed was Lunamaria's sister, Meyrin(Don't know how to spell her name.).

[Shinji Ikari]

Hehe, I know who will put Shinn and Rey down.... i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif Kira with Strike Freedom, it is the onlu unit that hasn't been announced now and he is alive... SO bang, down shot they flew to hell...

Oh yeah, the punch on SHinn, I have been waiting for it for so long...

[Death13a]

The only part i hated about the episode....


WHY ONLY ONE PUNCH IN THE SHINN'S FACE?????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????

but it sure was good punch as it let Shinn flying. Can't wait till sub as there was lots of dialog that would be intresting to know. I think Dullindal wants to make Athrun into Raww judging by Gundam he is giving him. Next episode looks like KIra/Lacus scene

[Digitalgirl]

Originally posted by: Death13a
The only part i hated about the episode....


WHY ONLY ONE PUNCH IN THE SHINN'S FACE?????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????

but it sure was good punch as it let Shinn flying. Can't wait till sub as there was lots of dialog that would be intresting to know. I think Dullindal wants to make Athrun into Raww judging by Gundam he is giving him. Next episode looks like KIra/Lacus scene

yeah, I was wondering about that too. I thought Athrun was going to beat Shinn up...

[Millenium-Boyz]

Damn right i love the scene where athrun landed a little touch on shin's face. and im wondering since episode 33 i realized that rey start giving his "strange" and suspicious lookin smile, im wondering what does he actually trying to archieve. and about kira ...... YAY he is still alive without any fatal wound, and i hope he will kick shin's ass next time they meet

[FelixZeroAlastor]

Originally posted by: Digitalgirl


Originally posted by: Death13a
The only part i hated about the episode....


WHY ONLY ONE PUNCH IN THE SHINN'S FACE?????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????

but it sure was good punch as it let Shinn flying. Can't wait till sub as there was lots of dialog that would be intresting to know. I think Dullindal wants to make Athrun into Raww judging by Gundam he is giving him. Next episode looks like KIra/Lacus scene

yeah, I was wondering about that too. I thought Athrun was going to beat Shinn up...

He probably would've continued fighting but Luna was holding him back and since Asuran isn't an ass he wasn't just going to send a lady flying. I know that one thing is for sure. If Luna wasn't there he probably would've beat the shit out of Rey too.

Didn't Dullandil just start a war similar to when the naturals started to kill coordinators when they were first made? Just wondering. Some of the shooting scenes looked similar to those in seed.

[JerV]

ooh I love Asuran oooh hes so manly BAH Asuran can burn in hell Shinn was just doing his duty and Shinn is the main char of GSD so I doubt hel get his ass kicked by kira in the future

[fenix000]

What the Chairman did now was an opening entry to start the war, i think more like a invasion of ZAFT forces. And with that in mind he doesnt really need to deploy troops coz he used his propagranda to get the Neturals to go against the EA and hunt for the "Logos" as he puts it. To me personally. Its not different then what Chairman Zara did! he simply just deployed the ZAFT troops to start the battle in Josh-ua while the chairman does it from a stragtigic point of view and uses words of wisdom to manipulate the ppl around him.

I must say though, the chairman may look bad after doing such a thing, But is it better for him to left the ZAFT ppl be annihialted aswell ? After such a bold move im thinking the chairman is evil and was'nt able to find the answer's he is looking for, therefore Rual Cruze words would be the only True words to him and thats gona drive him insain.

By his words i mean the things like " war is never gona end, hate never ends , things like that"

Would sux though if it ends like GS .. plz mind the spelling im an i admit it lol =P

fenix-

[Sano]

Originally posted by: fenix000
What the Chairman did now was an opening entry to start the war, i think more like a invasion of ZAFT forces. And with that in mind he doesnt really need to deploy troops coz he used his propagranda to get the Neturals to go against the EA and hunt for the "Logos" as he puts it. To me personally. Its not different then what Chairman Zara did! he simply just deployed the ZAFT troops to start the battle in Josh-ua while the chairman does it from a stragtigic point of view and uses words of wisdom to manipulate the ppl around him.

I must say though, the chairman may look bad after doing such a thing, But is it better for him to left the ZAFT ppl be annihialted aswell ? After such a bold move im thinking the chairman is evil and was'nt able to find the answer's he is looking for, therefore Rual Cruze words would be the only True words to him and thats gona drive him insain.

By his words i mean the things like " war is never gona end, hate never ends , things like that"

Would sux though if it ends like GS .. plz mind the spelling im an i admit it lol =P

fenix-


It seems the Dullindal wanted peace in the earlier episodes. Judging him by his earlier self-pondering, it seemed he was sincere in trying to prevent or end a war. However, as Talia said, "People Change" (as she said to Athuran right before the attack on the AA). But perhaps Dullindal could have a secret motive of doing something evil as many ppl predict, because of the Lacus assasination attempt (hasn't been confirmed if it is his doing, or some 3rd party's), and Athuran leaving Zaft.

Oh, by the way, (as I was told subbed ver. comes out 24 hours after raw ver, ) is the subbed ver. out yet? And if so, where can I obtain the torrent for this? Thanks.

[ch4kz]

Originally posted by: JerV
ooh I love Asuran oooh hes so manly BAH Asuran can burn in hell Shinn was just doing his duty and Shinn is the main char of GSD so I doubt hel get his ass kicked by kira in the future


Kira is also a main character there are two main characters...in the series just as there were two last series..


.I am waiting for cellphone too sub it!....I CANT WAIT!

and I can't wait until kira gets strike freedom

[Ahirman]

I wouldn't say that there's only two main characters. I considered Shinn, Asuran and Kira to be main characters.

[Dannynonsense]

hey does anyone have the cellphone link yet

[cybercoin]

Not out yet anyway.

[LaZie]

Cellphone^2-GSD 35 Torrent (http://cellpwn.no-ip.org/[Cellphone^2]_Gundam_SEED_Destiny_Phase_35_[9C1535E3].torrent)

[kinggalaxia]

w00tness! *clicks*

[Millenium-Boyz]

Geez, i keep on refreshing in NaNasHI torrent page for around 1 hr and im wondering why doesnt the Subbed out and i return to this forum and i was surprised that its already out, i dont even know that cellphone^2 have their own website now. lol i cant wait to see what kira and Neo said, and also i wanna see what did the chairman said

[PSJ]

Amazing episode. We get to se Kira alive and all he thinks about is Freedom hehe. Neo had some more "Mwu" moments which was cool, but if he is Mwu can they establish that now already? It's getting annoying with all the fucking hints but not a clear answer. I mean "who is Mwu La Fraga to you?" only that is annoying beyond anything.

As for Rey's and Shinn's speech i find it very hypocritical. Both of them went against the orders and kidnapped Stellar so that Shinn could be happy and now they try to tell Asuran that he got nothing to do in an army? Okey as it is now he is better off at the Archangel but those 2 aren't the ones that should say it. Rey is so fucking annoying that little fucktard hides something i'm sure of it. Look at his face when he isn't called out together with Shinn. Fuck those 2 hypocritical bitchboys. At least Asuran got his standards down, Shinn and Rey just change it when it needs to for their own interests.

A nice comeback for Yzak and Diakka tho. "Are those heads of yours just for decoration?" oh my god that line hit the spot and then it was followed by a typical Yzak "Shut up!". Only Yzak can do that. Diakka did his usual calming down Yzak every second of his time, hehe that gotta be a fulltime 24/7 job. Maybe stick an extra chair in Yzak's suit and have Diakka sit there and say calming comments to Yzak through the whole battle? That would be fun.

Djibril spoke of Dulinandal like he knew him and Dulinandal did the same about Djibril. I kind of think that Dulinandal is a part of something bigger than the Logos and Djibril is a part of this to. I don't trust Dulinandal for a second. The guy doesn't need to whip out 2 new super suits. Impulse managed to take down the strongest suit on the battlefield, what are Legend and Destiny for? And Shinn got a little to happy to get a new suit in my opinion. He was like a 5 year old on Christmas Eve.

Still a great ep and i want more right now. GIVE ME MORE DESTINY NOOOOWWW!!!

[EpoC]

aww when Atrhun punched Shinn, that was the best scene of the day. Great ep!
And I don't think atrhun will take the either of the gundams, and just leave the ship... but that's in the next ep, "atrhuns escape"

[oyabun]

rey is becoming wierder, just like how his relationship with shin go.i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif and rey even looked like he was jealous that shin and rey got called by the chairman. i mean his becoming more like raw. well atleast athrun will go back to his normal self, but im quite dissapointed because it tooked almost past the half of the series before he comes back to his senses, more like gS series. I still want to see athrun kicks shin's ass though i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif is that really mei li in the preview? or luna?

[PSJ]

Yes it is Meyrin, check the hair and besides she have had a thing for Asuran since he joined the Minerva it's just that her sister stepped in and didn't let Meyrin get close.

We all knew that Asuran would get to his sense sooner or later, that's not really a suprise. He will say something like "I refuse!" and then walk out. At least i hope so, stick it to the man. Give Dulinandal the finger or something.

[ch4kz]

I agree with that,..but I wanted ahturan to wake up before I consider him on as well...

[MeroTZ]

Personally, I'm hoping he just up and tells Dullindal to take his shiny new WMD and go F*** himself with it.

I mean seriously, how is he controlling himself? For all he knows, Kira is dead, along with everyone else on the AA. They are the closest thing he has to family.

I guess this just goes to show how much more mature Athrun is than Shinn.

[DragonBladeX]

Shinn was quite arrogant there to walk up to Athrun and tell him: 'I got my revenge and yours too'. I think Shinn's mentioning of the revenge for Athrun was an attempt to get more leverage on his reason for defeating Freedom but it did'nt work i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif. He was probably too giddy over his success he had to tell more people about it, including Athrun, Shinn should have clearly known Athrun's stand on the whole issue. On another note, Neo kind of sobered up when he heard Ramius reply to his Mwu La Fllaga question. Makes you wonder what he's thinking there...

I don't really believe for a moment Dullindal would have ruled out the possibilty of people taking the laws into their own hands by hunting down Logos themselves after that 'moving' speech of his. Him saying he was'nt expecting the reaction of the people to be like that was utter BS.

[XForce]

3 cheers for Athrun growing some balls again! And the way Kira survived wasn't as cheesy that I thought it would be, and Neo's talk with Ramius was pretty interesting. Now we just wait to see what Athrun will go/do, and how they will get their new gundams ><

[telemari]

Originally posted by: PSJ
and besides she have had a thing for Asuran since he joined the Minerva
and also she have shinn's face on monitor for the whole battle, so she knows he's insane.

edit: also, it seems that talia is going to betray ZAFT and Charman. that's bad, I want to see Minerva x Archangel i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif

[rdperalta]

I loved that sucker punch scene hehehehehe

Also it looks like Yzak is pissed. I do hope they defect with the eternal

[Sano]

There was some character development in Ep 35. Neo is more somber and serious now (compared to Ep 34). I don't think he has any memories yet of him being Mwu, but asks Ramius about this "Mwu" because Kira in Ep 34 called him "Mwu-San." Also, seeing Ramius cry in the last episode perhaps got him curious on what he once was. As for Athuran, this is the turning point for him. As others have stated above, he has awaken to his senses, and have reached a new revelation to leave Zaft. Athuran deserting Zaft is reminscent of him leaving Zaft back in Gundam Seed, except he doesn't take the Legend this time (while he took Justice back in Gundam Seed). Does anyone know when the Infinite Justice will debut?

[XwingRob]

Heh, I thought it was funny when Shinn thought he was doing Athrun a favor for destroying Freedom, because Freedom killed Rau.
Is Athrun gonna be escaping in a Gouf now though? Because I heard about Infinite Justice as well, so he can't be the pilot of Legend.
Rey is obviously gonna be the last bad mobile suit pilot in the series. He probaly hated Freedom for killing Rau.

[ch4kz]

W00t loved the episode...seems like the episode spoilers are right on target.

I loved the punch..I wish he did more, Like beat the living hell ouy of Shinn. Shinn did't seem so bad in the middle of the ep. I understoond his happiness in the beginning. Hell anyone would be happy if they just destroyed the best MS out there...even if it was because of certainn circumstances.

At the end, I dunno I would be happy to get a new mobile suit, but shinn seemed like God had just granted him his greatets wish.

If Shinn stays loyal to Dullindal to the end, Shinn will turn out to be the bad guy in this series...but who knows shinn may redeem himself somehow, which i doubt. but who knows

I CAN"T WAIT TO SEE HOW ASURAN ESCAPES!!!...and I wanan see strike freedom and infinite justice.!

[Sano]

Some how, I keep thinking Shinn will "wake-up" too and change later in the series. As with most major characters, he will mature sooner or later, thus him returning as (possibly) the hero. As for Dullindal, he's an enigma. We know he has some shady motive going on for his actions, but it's almost impossible to confirm what's he planning.

[Dannynonsense]

GREAT EPISODE AND EXCELLENT PUNCH BY ASURAN (HE'S THE MAN) moving on it looks as if duillandal was really destroying the archangel only because of kira mainly, to him this is a game of chess he's the black king then kira and lacus are the white king and queen. and about legend i think the chairman only used legend as a way to discover is asuran will remain loyal to zaft after recent events. and as for shinn joining the archangel its not gonna happen the way you people want it to happen it'll most likely be something simalliar to yzak situation at the end of seed trust me on that one

[solid01]

shinn isn't going to change.
shinn is more of the anakan skywalker of this series

[Curium]

First, I have to agree with the others, it was great seeing Athrun finally make a deceicive action. It was a great punch. Though to be honost, if this had been the first episode I had seen I might have liked Shinn. He didn't do anything that bad this time if you don't already know what has happened before. Of course this is an example of too little too late.

While it would nice to see Athrun tell Dullindal off, that would not be the practical approach. Even when he was wavering on his motivation, he has always thinking of the best way to act (with the lone exception being after Nicol's death). Personally what I would like to see is Athrun jump into Legend and take out Shinn and Dullindal right there then wipe out Gibralter.

Someone mentioned Dullindal playing this out like a chess match, I would say it is more of a chess/checkers hybrid. I say that because in Chess once the king is done the game is over, thus the Queen would be meaningless.

I'm curious what that one EAF soldier meant by the civilians being deceived. Obviously it could just be his opinion being a good soldier, but with Dullindal I don't think it is a comment that should be overlooked.

I also found it interesting that when they were showing the EAF's atrocities that they included a shot of GENESIS taking out the EAF Moon Base. Wouldn't that be counter-productive? Plus also the shots of Junius 7 being moved on purpose which was done by Coordinators and used by the EAF to stir up anger against ZAFT.

I wonder why they haven't transferred Neo to the brig yet? Remember where they put Dearkka. Unless of course the brig was taken out to install the hot spring.

A couple of things from the preview for 36:

I hope they don't spend too much time on flashbacks. They showed a few older scenes, and if it is just those fine, but much more would be a pain and would take away from the new stuff.

Where would Athrun go after he escapes? I don't believe that a GOUF would have enough power to fly all the way to Orb from Gibralter, and even if it did he doesn't have any friends in Orb right now. For all he knows Archangel was shot down, and even if they weren't it will take them time to get back to Orb. I would guess that the battle in 34 took place near the Arctic Ocean just north of Europe. That would mean to get to Orb they would have to go around either North America or Asia then head way south to near Australia. I guess he could go to South America. They have more or less gone independent and he might be able to get help from Ed the Ripper. I know it isn't likely, but it is a possability.

[PSJ]

One would think that Kira being killed would mean alot more to Asuran than Nichole being killed. The brother of the woman you love and at the same time your best friend from when you were a kid and add to that the dude dating your former fiancée. Kira is alot to Asuran and probably the closest he now got to family so Asuran not going crazy is probably only because he learned from past mistakes, mainly Nichole's death.

Asuran will obviously not tell Dulinandal off, he won't get the special treatment Shinn gets. He plans his next move carefully you can see that in the way he acts. It would be cool to see him sucker punch Dulinandal to tho and then tell him off while kicking Shinn in the nuts. Ah, sorry about my imagination getting out of hand.

I also think Dulinandal plans everything from that Chessboard he got, of course he isn't doing it like a real chess game but something similar. I found it very interesting when he called Lacus the "White Queen".

As for those shots off the GENESIS and the colony drop im also curious why they were in there, i mean its common sense to know that a military uses propaganda. Why put in stuff like the colony drop in it then?

Neo is probably kept up in a bed nice and warm cause he looks and talks like Mwu. Any other prisoner they would have put in a cell, or maybe just not pick up.

As for the Archangel heading to Orb why don't they go to the Kingdom of Scandinavia if they helped them before, surely we(Yes i live in Scandinavia, HAIL!) wouldn't have lacking technology. OK, maybe not up there with ORB and ZAFT but we would probably be able to fix up the Archangel a bit so the trip would become easier. My guess is that they goes straight for Orb tho. That would be the best choice if they can travel under water the whole way. Besides if things pops up send out Kira in Strike Rouge, he is the Ultimate coordinator surely he recovers quick.

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: Sano
Some how, I keep thinking Shinn will "wake-up" too and change later in the series. As with most major characters, he will mature sooner or later, thus him returning as (possibly) the hero. As for Dullindal, he's an enigma. We know he has some shady motive going on for his actions, but it's almost impossible to confirm what's he planning.

Especially after seeing this episode, I think this possibility is remote beyond belief. Shinn has shown no moral or ethical developement to this point: In fact, it appears to me he is regressing.

At this point, Shinn is completely loyal to ZAFT, without even the slightest sign of questioning his superiors motives. He's confused by Athrun's feelings about the AA: Its obvious he went into that battle because he wanted a shot at Freedom, and the fact taht his orders told him the same thing were most likely secondary.

Personally, I like a deranged Shinn as the villain in the series. And if you dont think he's deranged, take another look at his eyes when he hears that Destiny is his...

[Dannynonsense]

yep shinn's loyalty to zaft was shown during his conversatition with rey and lunamaria. he is completely 100% behind the chairman which is why him joining the aa is less likely after this episode ( Shinn- lovers keep hoping he will join so kira doesnt beat the shit out of him) so at this point its whatever

[Aeon]

This ep proved just how great Shinn is, I got my revenge and yours to. Pure cockyness at its best.

[Sano]

Originally posted by: MeroTZ


Originally posted by: Sano
Some how, I keep thinking Shinn will "wake-up" too and change later in the series. As with most major characters, he will mature sooner or later, thus him returning as (possibly) the hero. As for Dullindal, he's an enigma. We know he has some shady motive going on for his actions, but it's almost impossible to confirm what's he planning.

Especially after seeing this episode, I think this possibility is remote beyond belief. Shinn has shown no moral or ethical developement to this point: In fact, it appears to me he is regressing.

At this point, Shinn is completely loyal to ZAFT, without even the slightest sign of questioning his superiors motives. He's confused by Athrun's feelings about the AA: Its obvious he went into that battle because he wanted a shot at Freedom, and the fact taht his orders told him the same thing were most likely secondary.

Personally, I like a deranged Shinn as the villain in the series. And if you dont think he's deranged, take another look at his eyes when he hears that Destiny is his...


Yes, at this point he is arrogant/insane/immature. But remember, he is still the main character of the series. Although is very grossly arrogant and unstable, this could be to his benefit later on. Remember, he's fighting to end the war, because he himself is a victim of war (his slaughtered family). When he does awaken into a mature character, I sense he will be much more responsible than some of the other characters because of what he has gone through. I remember Kira as a cry baby in the beginning of Seed because he cried so often, and was at times immature. However, once Kira matured and had the correct sense of justice, he turned out to be a very responsible character (as we see today in Seed Destiny). Although it's difficult to see Shinn like this right now, it's very possible he will turn out to be a mature character. For a diamond to become a diamond, it must go through many fire, heat, and high pressure. Right now, I see Shinn as going through that transformation. Don't misunderstand me though, I'm not a Shinn supporter, I'm just speculating on how he will turn out, becuase he is the main character after all...

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: Sano

Yes, at this point he is arrogant/insane/immature. But remember, he is still the main character of the series. Although is very grossly arrogant and unstable, this could be to his benefit later on. Remember, he's fighting to end the war, because he himself is a victim of war (his slaughtered family). When he does awaken into a mature character, I sense he will be much more responsible than some of the other characters because of what he has gone through. I remember Kira as a cry baby in the beginning of Seed because he cried so often, and was at times immature. However, once Kira matured and had the correct sense of justice, he turned out to be a very responsible character (as we see today in Seed Destiny). Although it's difficult to see Shinn like this right now, it's very possible he will turn out to be a mature character. For a diamond to become a diamond, it must go through many fire, heat, and high pressure. Right now, I see Shinn as going through that transformation. Don't misunderstand me though, I'm not a Shinn supporter, I'm just speculating on how he will turn out, becuase he is the main character after all...

You say "When he does awaken into a mature character", as if its a given it will happen. I still think we might be lucky enough for him to just go totally crazy-nuts, instead of turning into another hero. We have enough heros, what we need is someone well and truly crazy. As in more crazy than Rau.

Also, as has been said before... Shinn is -a- main character, not the main character. Kira and Athrun are at least as important as Shinn, maybe Athrun a little more than Kira. Shinn makes a better villain than a hero, and they dont really need a crazy change in his character at this point. Better to stick with what they have established and have a cool villain than an inferior hero.

[Vegita]

Even tho I would classify my self as a shinn-supporter I do agree that his reaction to the new suit was a little... overzealous.

But then again, I don't think it's completely out of the ordinary. If you are a fighter pilot and you get an F22 wouldn't you be happy? Or would you be horrified like Asuran was? I'd say his reaction was a little over the top as well...

I mean, their sole purpose is to pilot mobile suits... your life, the success of the mission, and the welfare of your friends and country depend on the mobile suit. If you hate war and fighting so much maybe you should just be a civilian.

[Mae]

Good ep. And it was story, not action, too. GSD is really picking up, but GS was best in it's second half as well.

Athrun's confrontation with Shinn was nicely done. I liked how afterwards when Rey was saying how they should fight whoever ZAFT tells them to fight Athrun flashes back to the holding a gun on Lacus, showing that he knows just where blindly following authority can get you. A lesson Shinn has yet to learn. They used the contrast between these two well in this ep, particularly in their meeting with the chaiman.

Speaking of the Chariman, I loved how he was like "Wow, I never thought that showing pics of those guys and naming them enemies of mankind would result in them being ripped apart by angry mobs. such a shame." lol. But what is he trying to do giving Athrun a new Gundam? Buy his loyalty? He should know better than that. Shinn worships the ground he walks on, but Athrun is pissed. Maybe he's planning for Athrun to defect?

And what's Rey up to? He preaches loyalty to ZAFT, and he could just be controlling Shinn for Dulandil, but maybe he's up to something else... And nice cameo by Yzak. "Is that head of yours just a decoration?"

[Curium]

Originally posted by: PSJ
As for the Archangel heading to Orb why don't they go to the Kingdom of Scandinavia if they helped them before, surely we(Yes i live in Scandinavia, HAIL!) wouldn't have lacking technology. OK, maybe not up there with ORB and ZAFT but we would probably be able to fix up the Archangel a bit so the trip would become easier. My guess is that they goes straight for Orb tho. That would be the best choice if they can travel under water the whole way.

The only reason I can think that is against this is because Cagailli is really worried about how Orb will react from Dullindal's current moves. Remember they had decided to return to Orb before ZAFT attacked them.

EDIT: I know Shinn was the main character at the beginning, but if he still was then why is Strike Freedom the Gundam used with the GSD logo in the opening.

EDIT2: I think Dullindal offering Legend to Athrun may have just been arrogance on his part. Dullindal is used to people just being puppets for him to manipulate. That is why Archangel had to go since they wouldn't bow down to him.

Also someone mentioned somewhere about Yzak and Dearkka helping Waltfeld steal Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice. IIRC the source was questionable, but based on this episode I think it is something to at least consider (if you aren't ready to believe it).

[Vegita]

I'm new to the Gundam universe in general, so can anyone tell me why it's "all over" if they go underwater? Is the minevra not underwater capable?

[Curium]

Minverva probably can't go underwater, but that isn't why they were saying it. Beam weapons of any kind do not work under water (the only exception being Gundam Deathsythe in Gundam W). Minvera only has 2 non-beam weapons on board. 1 is their CIWS, more or less machine guns, that wouldn't really effect a battle ship. The other is their Isolade cannon in front of Impulse's catapault. Because it launches shell type projectiles they would be seriously hampered trying to move through the water. Since Minerva is supposed to be a space battleship things like torpedos and depthcharges weren't considered necessary.

[NineTailsKitsu]

Let me add something here for a moment.....Shinn is a main character, yes. However I've noticed that some people seem to think that he is'nt the MAIN charcter, when in fact he is. Yes, yes, i know...All of you Kira/Athrun supporters like to believe otherwise because both characters had such large roles in Seed...However, Shinn is the main character of Destiny. Thoughts like: "Then why is Strike Freedom shown as the logo of Destiny?" are simply foolish. Destiny has just as much time in the opening as SF, so making such a comment is ridiculous. Kira was the main character of Seed, with Athrun as A main character also. However, when you look at Seed Destiny which has many main characters with significant roles...You'll see that Destiny is Shinn's story....and his mobile suit.

[Roko]

Haro^2Tori^2 Torrent Out (http://www.point-blank.cc:7000/torrents/%5BHaro%5E2_Tori%5E2%5D_Gundam_SEED_Destiny_-_35_%5B4C137426%5D.avi.torrent?info_hash=6de3f82fa 2f45dca403fbf157b216ae0b2508b5d)

@NineTailsKitsu: yesyes, we all know that. Its just a bit weird that SF appears more than Destiny in the OP, on top of the fact that most of us are Shinn-haters.

[Dannynonsense]

Originally posted by: NineTailsKitsu
Let me add something here for a moment.....Shinn is a main character, yes. However I've noticed that some people seem to think that he is'nt the MAIN charcter, when in fact he is. Yes, yes, i know...All of you Kira/Athrun supporters like to believe otherwise because both characters had such large roles in Seed...However, Shinn is the main character of Destiny. Thoughts like: "Then why is Strike Freedom shown as the logo of Destiny?" are simply foolish. Destiny has just as much time in the opening as SF, so making such a comment is ridiculous. Kira was the main character of Seed, with Athrun as A main character also. However, when you look at Seed Destiny which has many main characters with significant roles...You'll see that Destiny is Shinn's story....and his mobile suit.

first and foremost shinn is part of the main cast and the story centers around but the reason why everyone is talking about SF being shown as the logo of destiny is because its possible that the focus of the story is changing since shinn is clearly crossing over to the darkside and the masses always want the good guy to come out on top so ill end this with my famous quote " Know your facts before you post something"

[Mut]

Gay episode. Yzak laid the smack down. Rey is gay for Shinn. Shinn will accept Rey. In the butt.

[oyabun]

shin is and should be the main character, the series is named after his gundam. but for me he should die with his lover rey. hehehe and it was nice to see athruns characters develops "again".

Is infinite justice's head in the last part of the op?

[einobaka]

Yzak indeed made a wonderful smack down.

[Assassin]

shinns still a pussy, athurans finally starting to gro some testicles, teh new gundams are kool, but i wonder who's getting teh Legend, since athuran has to get Infinite Justice. maybe rey will get it.

and yes, yazks smack down was amazing indeed

[Curium]

Originally posted by: oyabin
shin is and should be the main character, the series is named after his gundam. but for me he should die with his lover rey. hehehe and it was nice to see athruns characters develops "again".

Is infinite justice's head in the last part of the op?

I'm not sure that is a good measureing for that. Gundam SEED Destiny just sounds better then Gundam SEED Strike-Freedom or Gundam SEED Infinite Justice.

And yes that was IJ's head.

[Nai]

Well, seems like Asuran is sinking deeper and deeper into the quagmire of useless angst ( at least Shinn's angst is directed towards the enemy ). A shame I actually liked the guy once, seeing how he's now reduced into a total retard. Smacking Shinn for actually defeating the enemy ( the enemy who earlier shredded Saviour ) pretty much shows Asurans character. Right now, the only redemption I see for Asuran is death as I consider him pretty much the most pathetic character ever to pilot a GUNDAM and a total waste of good skills.

Ahem, as for the rest of the episode, it was pretty good. It was nice to see the effect the Chairmans words had on the people, and seeing Lord Djibril fear for his life as Logos members were dragged out on the streets and shot one by one. I'm also very curious to see how Lunamaria will react to Asuran's lowly betrayal.

[Curium]

Personally I consider it more of him finally coming to his senses. Sure Kira took out Saviour, but Athrun is man enough to realize it was just a small disagreement compared to the importance of their friendship. He showed amazing restraint since he thinks that his best friend and his fiance were both just killed along with several other friends.

[FelixZeroAlastor]

I think that a while back we talked about being a soldier and following orders and disobeying orders. To me it seemed that Talia regreted even fighting the AA and was not at all to happy when she thought it blew up also. Athrun's brain is finally working now so this is very good.

As to what he is gonna do with a gouf and Meyrin... he'll probably use his Faith membership to take a gouf and escape while everyone else thinks that he is doing it for faith or something. As to where Athrun is gonna go... probably orb but thats another ep so let me get back on topic.

I wonder what is up with Rey and all of the touching all of the sudden. It is really creeping me out. What pisses me off though is that smug look that he has on his face. Like he is superior in his logic. And when he went into his room he had an evil look on his face like everything was going according to plan or something. But what I really want to know is why he flashbacked to Rau Kluze getting killed by Kira. Maybe he is also happy that Shinn got his revenge on Kira for Rau's death too. Makes me wonder.

Nai. You probably didn't look at it from Athrun's point of view. Like Curium said he basically thinks that his family(most everyone on the AA) is dead. A punch is nothing campared to what he could've done to Shinn. If Shinn hadn't walked up to him at that moment and maybe later he probably wouldn't have recieved that punch. Athrun didn't even do or say anything to Shinn as they rode that car to Dullindal. This just shows you his level of maturity. While Shinn did nothing in this ep but show his level of maturity as he gawked at his gundam and smiled everytime Rey touched him.

[{GSD}Freedom owns]

yea i agree talia didnt seem to want to fight the AA..... maby she likes what they are doing or something who knows anyway cant wait for next ep. nice to see that auran is gunna leave ZAFT and return to ORB/AA?? then who would get legend Rey or Lunamaria?

P.S. GO ASURAN NICE PUNCH ON SHINN ONE OF THE BEST PARTS IN EP (BEST BEING THAT WE SEE THAT KIRA SURVIVED ^^).

[PSJ]

Originally posted by: Nai
Well, seems like Asuran is sinking deeper and deeper into the quagmire of useless angst ( at least Shinn's angst is directed towards the enemy ). A shame I actually liked the guy once, seeing how he's now reduced into a total retard. Smacking Shinn for actually defeating the enemy ( the enemy who earlier shredded Saviour ) pretty much shows Asurans character. Right now, the only redemption I see for Asuran is death as I consider him pretty much the most pathetic character ever to pilot a GUNDAM and a total waste of good skills.

Ahem, as for the rest of the episode, it was pretty good. It was nice to see the effect the Chairmans words had on the people, and seeing Lord Djibril fear for his life as Logos members were dragged out on the streets and shot one by one. I'm also very curious to see how Lunamaria will react to Asuran's lowly betrayal.

If you watched the episode you would know that Asuran was angry and sad because he thought his girl Cagalli and his best friend Kira died and along with them the whole Archangel crew which he knew from the Yakin Due battle. If that doesn't make you angry or sad you're insane.

It's not a matter of "he punched shinn for defeating the enemy". He punched Shinn because Shinn killed Asuran's best friend and at that Shinn knew that Freedom doesn't kill. Sure it was an order to take it down but Shinn doesn't got any ethics at all, fuck he does as he pleases and Dulinandal rewards him with a new gundam.

Asuran is indeed pathetic in an army but when he joins the Archangel and their cause he will be one hell of a force. You can't really blame Asuran for how he acts seeing what he has been through in SEED. Requesting that he follows Dulinandal blindly is like telling a blind man to drive a car, it simply won't happen.

[FelixZeroAlastor]

This episode was kind of like the opening to Athrun's brain turning back on. I just hope that when Athrun takes Meyrin with him in the next ep someone isn't stupid enough to kill her. He may just lose it and take out that entire base.

Really can't wait to see the look on Shinn's face when he sees Kira alive. Can't also wait to see the look on his face when he has fight Athrun and gets his ass whooped.

If Shinn gets the Destiny then Rey gets the Legend Right? I guess that means Luna gets the Impulse maybe.

[antoine]

Nai...

Shinn did not defeat the "enemy", he defeated Stellar's so-called killer. Even before AA/Freedom was declared the enemy, Stellar was killed and the grudge against Kira continued (remember Shinn saw freedom before his family got owned), thus contradicting your statement above.

If you didn't clearly see Shinn taunting Athrun, no offense, I feel sorry for you because that is the only reason he got decked in the face and flew 5 feet back, not for "defeating the enemy". We all expected Athrun to woop the shit out of him, but Athrun was clearly holding himself back, that was, until he was provoked by Shinn's arrogant comments.

Athrun is confused, as he was in SEED. Kira/Shinn know what they want. Shinn wanted revenge and ended up owning Kira. Kira wants to stop the endless battles and get orb back to what it used to be. I like the first op of the series, ignited, because one of the first things they show was Kira, Athrun, and Shinn. I thought was somewhat symbolic, Kira representing peace, Shinn representing war, and Athrun in the middle of the two, confused. I can't think of a better analogy.

[Dannynonsense]

Originally posted by: Nai
Well, seems like Asuran is sinking deeper and deeper into the quagmire of useless angst ( at least Shinn's angst is directed towards the enemy ). A shame I actually liked the guy once, seeing how he's now reduced into a total retard. Smacking Shinn for actually defeating the enemy ( the enemy who earlier shredded Saviour ) pretty much shows Asurans character. Right now, the only redemption I see for Asuran is death as I consider him pretty much the most pathetic character ever to pilot a GUNDAM and a total waste of good skills.

Ahem, as for the rest of the episode, it was pretty good. It was nice to see the effect the Chairmans words had on the people, and seeing Lord Djibril fear for his life as Logos members were dragged out on the streets and shot one by one. I'm also very curious to see how Lunamaria will react to Asuran's lowly betrayal.

you know i try not to overdue it when i post and try to avoid post that look down on the character i support asuran but in this case ill make an exception

shut the hell up your interpertation of the episode is anything but right how bout you re watch the episode matter of fact the entire series over and stop being a narrow minded dumbass (common trait amongst Shinn-lovers) saying all this and that without actually thinking about it and automatically thinking the insane asshole shinn is always right.

now to close "know your Facts before you Post DUMBASS"

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: Nai
Well, seems like Asuran is sinking deeper and deeper into the quagmire of useless angst ( at least Shinn's angst is directed towards the enemy ). A shame I actually liked the guy once, seeing how he's now reduced into a total retard. Smacking Shinn for actually defeating the enemy ( the enemy who earlier shredded Saviour ) pretty much shows Asurans character. Right now, the only redemption I see for Asuran is death as I consider him pretty much the most pathetic character ever to pilot a GUNDAM and a total waste of good skills.

Ahem, as for the rest of the episode, it was pretty good. It was nice to see the effect the Chairmans words had on the people, and seeing Lord Djibril fear for his life as Logos members were dragged out on the streets and shot one by one. I'm also very curious to see how Lunamaria will react to Asuran's lowly betrayal.

Um, I know you've heard alot by now... but really, are you paying attention? What Athrun knew, and so did apparently Talia and anyone else with half a brain, is that Archangel and Kira were not anyone's enemy. At know point have they actually threatened or been a threat to anyone. At the very most, they have interfered. To make a comparison, this would be like the United States attacking France for continously 'getting in our way' politically (PLEASE, I am not trying to start any political stuff here, jsut trying to make a comparison showing how ridiculous it was for ZAFT to consider the AA their enemy).

Not to mention, Athrun did just see the closest things he has left to family annihilated by the Nation he'd been wanting to trust ever since his mom died. I'd say punching Shinn is handling things much better than Shinn did, what with the sequestering himself in a room with Rey and plotting Kira's death.

[Terracosmo]

Goddamn, I love Nai. He (she?) has the same opinion like me on everything related to Shinn. I don't even need to post it myself! I don't understand why you all are complaining about that post of his/hers. It's pretty much the only post in this topic that isn't just "OMG loolololol good punch & btw Rey/Shinn are gay and will have babies!!11 omg athrun rules despite not doing anything lolool he's pimp weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee". Many of you could learn from it...

To put it simply: well, good for all you Shinn-haters that Athrun punched him. I fail to see the logic in the scene however, other than Athrun's dislike for him. An understandable dislike maybe (seeing as Shinn presumably killed Kira & blew up the Archangel), but still. Shinn followed orders and took down the enemy's greatest pilot. And he gets smacked. Wow, go Athrun! As far as these things goes, I'd say Shinn is a better soldier i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif At least he knows what the hell he is supposed to be doing. Also, what the hell has Athrun even accomplished in this series?

All he does is go around and behave like a fucking soap-bubble, girls coming to him because he no doubt emits special "I'm helpless" waves which gives the females in the show motherly feelings or something to that effect. Athrun flies around, hates Shinn, screams names and gets his fucking machine ripped apart.

Shinn kills enemies, takes down Kira and so on and so forth. Athrun is the one who needs a punch, so that retard can bring himself together and become his older more resolute self. As it stands now he's just a moron.

---As for the episode: YZAK! God, I've missed him. As PSJ said a few pages back, nobody can say "URUSAI!" like this godly creation of a character can. i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif He better get more screentime now. I just love everything about him. He's just so impulsive, so pissed off, so brilliant... so "Is that head of yours only for decoration?". HELL YEAH!

Does anyone else think that Rey helped Shinn to get Kira down as a revenge for the latter killing Kruuze? Also, <3 the new mobile suits. Legend looks kinda like Providence #2. With Athrun about to leave, I am guessing Rey will get that one instead.

NOTE: Everything I say about Shinn is said in an entirely objective way, coming from a guy who does not care particularly for either Shinn nor Athrun. So if you are going to criticise this post, which I am sure that at least 3 of you will, then do not blindly assume that I'm a Shinn fanboy; for I am not.

[Dannynonsense]

you were the last person we needed to join this argrument Mr. Joule

[Jurojin]

Originally posted by: Dannynonsense
you know i try not to overdue it when i post and try to avoid post that look down on the character i support asuran but in this case ill make an exception

shut the hell up your interpertation of the episode is anything but right how bout you re watch the episode matter of fact the entire series over and stop being a narrow minded dumbass (common trait amongst Shinn-lovers) saying all this and that without actually thinking about it and automatically thinking the insane asshole shinn is always right.

now to close "know your Facts before you Post DUMBASS"



Like this constitutes an argument. ~_~

Everyone else who has responded to Nai has at the very least explained their side in a civil manner- All you seem to like doing is shouting and cursing at Pro-Shinn people to make your E-peen larger.

Nai is correct from Shinn's/ZAFT's mind, while the rest of you are correct from an outside look at the situation. Decking Shinn is understandable considering his loss, but is really rather childish if you look at it from a military view. I am hoping that Athrun, whom is my favorite character since Seed, has finally woken up from his haze and actually does SOMETHING other than being a chick-magnet.

[Nai]

Apparently my post was far too biased and my subjective opinion ( redundant but obviously a necessity ) extremely uninformed and ignorant. Let me try this again:

"OMG LOLOL SHINN AND REY TOTALLY GAY!!! OMFG, ASURAN SUCH A PIMP! HAVE MY BABIES!"

That better?

Okay, now for some easy facts that anyone should be able to folllow:

1. Shinn Asuka is a soldier of ZAFT.

2. Asuran Zala is a soldier of ZAFT.

3. The Archangel and Freedom has been declared enemies of ZAFT due to attacking ZAFT several times over on various battlefields.

4. Shinn Asuka takes down the enemy ace pilot, Kira Yamato. The ace pilot who earlier destroyed Saviour, Asuran Zala's unit.

5. Shinn Asuka gets slapped in the face by his comrade in arms Asuran Zala for doing his duty and for not being owned by Freedom. Asuran Zala's superb defense was "KIRA DIDN'T WANT TO KILL YOU! HE JUST WANTED TO FUCK UP YOUR UNIT! YOU SHOULD HAD LET HIM WIN! BOO-FUCKING-HOO!"

I'm sorry for not seeing Asuran as the great ball-enticing hero in this scenario and I'm really sorry for not considering Rey "a fag who needs to die" and Shinn a complete and utter waste of space. I'm just odd, I guess.

[Dannynonsense]

normally i would have started cursing at you Jurojin but you see my point of view which i hoped people would have seen after watching the episode again. the reason for my argrument is nai is only looking at things from a millitary point of view not a personal one. thats like telling some one you shouldnt be mad we killed your family were on the same side. then most shinn lovers talk about how shinn acts so human well in this case it was asuran who was acting human that whole situation wasnt about millitary ethics but asuran personal feelings as rey had mentioned.

as for asuran betrayl would you still side with the people who killed your family. which is why i didnt bother to explain myself in this argument because as far as im concerned what nai posted was just BS. were not talking from a millitary point of view but a personal one. Narrow minded assholes who see things in only one way

finally as an asuran supporter i would like to say asuran is not pathetic just confused at the moment want to believe in the place he once called home wanting to believe in the words of a minipulating man. asuran who lost everthing at the end of GS just wants to believe that plant was the victim. however sometimes we can block out the truth to believe whatever we want but asuran cant do that which is why he is constantly at war with himself, with he's betrayl the death of Faith member Asuran Zara will occur and the resurrection of Asuran Zara of the three ship union.

that last paragraph brought a tear to my eye excuse me

[Jurojin]

Originally posted by: Dannynonsense
normally i would have started cursing at you Jurojin


This honestly should stop- There's no reason to just randomly curse at people you disagree with. It makes you look ignorant and usually people ignore you.

As for being a "Narrow-minded asshole", you're doing exactly that- read your second paragraph again and try to honestly tell me you can't smell the hypocrisy of it. "She's a NMA, but I'm not going to even acknowledge that point of view and just voice my own."

You HAVE to acknowledge both sides of the situation, because that's what half of this conflict is about- Shinn, in his mind, is in the right. Athrun, in his mind, is also in the right. But since they're both so different, that's where conflict occurs- and that's something that's going to drive them in future fights- Shinn's self-righteousness, and Athrun's sense of right and wrong.


Honestly, I would like to see the rest of the series revolve around Shinn vs. Athrun, with Kira and Rey in the background.

[antoine]

I agree that Shinn was following orders, but those orders were HIS OWN. Do not confuse orders from zaft with his revenge for Stellar's death. He was analyzing freedom before Dullindal made that speech and before AA was declared an enemy. As far as the punch, Athrun was probably suprised that Shinn would say that Athrun wanted him to lose, hence the monstrous smack to the face.

Shinn's conversation with Athrun was a mere taunt. Athrun has been telling them over and over again that Kira was not the enemy, and it was obvious that Shinn was about to get smacked in the next minute after saying "he got Athrun's revenge as well."

Shinn-lovers whine that no one understands Shinn blah blah blah, but in this case Shinn did not know what was going through Athrun's head even after Athrun telling him that Kira is not the enemy again and again and again AND AGAIN. Even knowing Athrun's relation with Kira, he chose to be arrogant, and as a result, his face suffered dearly.

[Dannynonsense]

Originally posted by: Jurojin


Originally posted by: Dannynonsense
normally i would have started cursing at you Jurojin


This honestly should stop- There's no reason to just randomly curse at people you disagree with. It makes you look ignorant and usually people ignore you.

As for being a "Narrow-minded asshole", you're doing exactly that- read your second paragraph again and try to honestly tell me you can't smell the hypocrisy of it. "She's a NMA, but I'm not going to even acknowledge that point of view and just voice my own."

You HAVE to acknowledge both sides of the situation, because that's what half of this conflict is about- Shinn, in his mind, is in the right. Athrun, in his mind, is also in the right. But since they're both so different, that's where conflict occurs- and that's something that's going to drive them in future fights- Shinn's self-righteousness, and Athrun's sense of right and wrong.


Honestly, I would like to see the rest of the series revolve around Shinn vs. Athrun, with Kira and Rey in the background.

wwwhhhhyyy i was just saying because at first it look like you were trying to tear me a n plus i wasnt calling you a narrow minded asshole since i agreed with what you said and i do acknlowledge both sides but come on you cant say asuran was completely wrong for hitting him thats what im trying to say i just want people to take into account asuran's feeling. people i dont randomly curse at others didnt you read what i said after i quoted nai. i fell like shinn right now

We do not take kindly to cursing and insulting for childish reasons on these forums. STOP IT. User has been warned.

GotWoot Moderator

[Blues]

Actually, it's quite easy to see the Archangel and Freedom as an enemy. At least through military eyes. No one know exactly what they're up to, And on top of that, they interfered quite a few times. Although I did find it stupid that they were labeled so quickly as an enemy after fighting Destroy.

Personally, I think Kira and co are looking at this from the wrong angle. It seems that all they care about is peace. Not fighting for any reason and all. I can understand Kira being suspicious of Dullindal, but really, it was getting VERY annoying with Cagalli going on about Orbs ideals and Kira going on about not fighting. I can see Athrun's point when he told Kira to back off, that interfering in everything wasn't the right way to go. And look where it's gotten them...labeled as enemies by both sides.

Although quite frankly, I too was glad that Athrun decked Shinn. Shinn was a little too arrogant, but then, that's what makes his character fresh. It's hard to see how anyone could NOT be arrogant after beating the Freedom. Especially after watching your entire family get blown to hell because of a careless stray shot.

All in all, it was a good ep all around. I'm curious as to how Kira's gonna get the Strike Freedom...because I think that if it's just handed to him in the next few episodes, that'll be pretty damn cheesy

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Nai
5. Shinn Asuka gets slapped in the face by his comrade in arms Asuran Zala for doing his duty and for not being owned by Freedom. Asuran Zala's superb defense was "KIRA DIDN'T WANT TO KILL YOU! HE JUST WANTED TO FUCK UP YOUR UNIT! YOU SHOULD HAD LET HIM WIN! BOO-FUCKING-HOO!"

Actually the punch was completely justified based on Shinn going out of his way to antagonize his superior officer. Reguardless of who Shinn thinks he is if Athran cared to shoot him in the head he has that kind of jurisdiction as a member of faith. Also it seems rather odd to me that he would get in any trouble for leaving the Minerva as he only has stayed there upto this point of his own free will.

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: Terracosmo

To put it simply: well, good for all you Shinn-haters that Athrun punched him. I fail to see the logic in the scene however, other than Athrun's dislike for him. An understandable dislike maybe (seeing as Shinn presumably killed Kira & blew up the Archangel), but still. Shinn followed orders and took down the enemy's greatest pilot. And he gets smacked. Wow, go Athrun! As far as these things goes, I'd say Shinn is a better soldier At least he knows what the hell he is supposed to be doing. Also, what the hell has Athrun even accomplished in this series?


In the spirit of friendly argument, I'd like to say they are both sucky soldiers. Namely, look at Shinn's history of insubordination and flat out treachery. Hell, if Dulindal didn't have plans for him, he'd have been executed after the whole Stellar thing.

That said, Shinn is still more loyal to ZAFT at this point than Athrun is. And while he does know what he is supposed to be doing, he generally only does so when he wants to.





Shinn kills enemies, takes down Kira and so on and so forth. Athrun is the one who needs a punch, so that retard can bring himself together and become his older more resolute self. As it stands now he's just a moron.



I'd say he just got such a punch. Well, metaphorically at least. Seeing his friends/near family die would be like a punch.... TO THE MIND!




---As for the episode: YZAK! God, I've missed him. As PSJ said a few pages back, nobody can say "URUSAI!" like this godly creation of a character can. He better get more screentime now. I just love everything about him. He's just so impulsive, so pissed off, so brilliant... so "Is that head of yours only for decoration?". HELL YEAH!


It would be nice for him to come back, maybe with an upgraded version of Duel or some such. And his humorous comments are always welcome.





Does anyone else think that Rey helped Shinn to get Kira down as a revenge for the latter killing Kruuze? Also, <3 the new mobile suits. Legend looks kinda like Providence #2. With Athrun about to leave, I am guessing Rey will get that one instead.



He almost certainly helped go after Freedom for revenge for Krueze, whatwith that flashback and all. Him getting Legend makes lots of sense, it certainly doesn't look like a suit to be thrown away on Athruns escape.




NOTE: Everything I say about Shinn is said in an entirely objective way, coming from a guy who does not care particularly for either Shinn nor Athrun. So if you are going to criticise this post, which I am sure that at least 3 of you will, then do not blindly assume that I'm a Shinn fanboy; for I am not.

Shinns great, he's just not very likable.

[Blues]

Originally posted by: Nai

5. Shinn Asuka gets slapped in the face by his comrade in arms Asuran Zala for doing his duty and for not being owned by Freedom. Asuran Zala's superb defense was "KIRA DIDN'T WANT TO KILL YOU! HE JUST WANTED TO FUCK UP YOUR UNIT! YOU SHOULD HAD LET HIM WIN! BOO-FUCKING-HOO!"


Asuran was basically getting after Shinn for making this personal, when he's letting his personal feelings get in the way of his judgement.

Asuran told Kira himself that he should back off...and Kira didn't, so he seemingly got blown the hell up. Yes, Shinn was arrogant, but he was following orders. From a military point of view, he defeated the Freedom, one of the most powerful suits known. Asuran knew what Kira was all about, but Shinn didn't. If Asuran didn't want Kira to die, then maybe he should have, oh I dunno, TOLD EVERYONE WHAT HE KNEW ABOUT KIRA AND WHAT THEY WERE TRYING TO DO!

I don't blame Asuran for decking Shinn from a personal standpoint, but it's not like he was in the right for doing it.

[Vegita]

Originally posted by: MeroTZ
... To make a comparison, this would be like the United States attacking France for continously 'getting in our way' politically (PLEASE, I am not trying to start any political stuff here, jsut trying to make a comparison showing how ridiculous it was for ZAFT to consider the AA their enemy).



Make a valid comparison if you're going to make one at all.

Q: What do you think the United States would do if France went into Iraq and attacked US Forces in the name of "preventing war"?

A: France would be declared an enemy an enemy on the battlefield.

[bigdaddy843]

well, I basically feel that that punch Athrun delivered was quite a welcome thing for most Kira fans and Shinn haters. Being a Kira fan myself, I too feel that the punch was justifiable and that Athrun was most likely letting loose some very pent up anger, however, I have to admit that Shinn being extremely skilled has in a way become a fact. It cannot be denied that he is to a certain degree a moblie suit ace, however(again) I must state that he appears deluded in the issue that he would have been able to placate Stellar and that Kira killed her or from his point of view murdered her, without good cause or reason.

[Blues]

Originally posted by: Vegita


Originally posted by: MeroTZ
... To make a comparison, this would be like the United States attacking France for continously 'getting in our way' politically (PLEASE, I am not trying to start any political stuff here, jsut trying to make a comparison showing how ridiculous it was for ZAFT to consider the AA their enemy).



Make a valid comparison if you're going to make one at all.

Q: What do you think the United States would do if France went into Iraq and attacked US Forces in the name of "preventing war"?

A: France would be declared an enemy an enemy on the battlefield.


THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!

[Blues]

Originally posted by: DDBen


Actually the punch was completely justified based on Shinn going out of his way to antagonize his superior officer. Reguardless of who Shinn thinks he is if Athran cared to shoot him in the head he has that kind of jurisdiction as a member of faith. Also it seems rather odd to me that he would get in any trouble for leaving the Minerva as he only has stayed there upto this point of his own free will.


Are you kidding me? You know what would happen if Asuran did that? Firing squad! He killed Shinn Asuka right after Shinn destroyed the Freedom. Yeah....ZAFT is REALLY going to smile upon that.

"Mr Zala, can you explain your justification in murdering Shinn Asuka after said pilot defeated the Freedom, a unit that was labeled as an enemy of Zaft"

I'd like to see him get out of that.

The punch was only justifiable from a personal point of view. Like I said, I can understand why he did it, but it's an entirely personal thing.

And really, could you say Shinn was going out of his way to harass his Superior Officer? From Shinn's point of view, Asuran was giving him flak for following his orders. So it could be said that Zala started it.

And for those who say that Shinn did it because of a grudge after Kira killed Stellar, you're condemming Shinn for doing something because of personal reasons, but you praise Asuran for decking Shinn, also for a personal reason.

Bottom line is this Shinn Asuka is not Kira Yamato. IMO, he's better, because he's not the typical whiney crybaby who hates war but is being forced to fight...it was fine with Amuro Ray, but after 26 years of it....I'm tired of it....That's why I liked Kamille Budan in Zeta...he broke the mold....same thing here with Shinn. If people would get past hating him, they'll see that he is actually a complex character...and after spending two years in his shoes, I challenge you to not end up as arroagant and vengeful as he is.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Blues
Are you kidding me? You know what would happen if Asuran did that? Firing squad! He killed Shinn Asuka right after Shinn destroyed the Freedom. Yeah....ZAFT is REALLY going to smile upon that.

"Mr Zala, can you explain your justification in murdering Shinn Asuka after said pilot defeated the Freedom, a unit that was labeled as an enemy of Zaft"

I'd like to see him get out of that.

The punch was only justifiable from a personal point of view. Like I said, I can understand why he did it, but it's an entirely personal thing.

And really, could you say Shinn was going out of his way to harass his Superior Officer? From Shinn's point of view, Asuran was giving him flak for following his orders. So it could be said that Zala started it.

And for those who say that Shinn did it because of a grudge after Kira killed Stellar, you're condemming Shinn for doing something because of personal reasons, but you praise Asuran for decking Shinn, also for a personal reason.

Bottom line is this Shinn Asuka is not Kira Yamato. IMO, he's better, because he's not the typical whiney crybaby who hates war but is being forced to fight...it was fine with Amuro Ray, but after 26 years of it....I'm tired of it....That's why I liked Kamille Budan in Zeta...he broke the mold....same thing here with Shinn. If people would get past hating him, they'll see that he is actually a complex character...and after spending two years in his shoes, I challenge you to not end up as arroagant and vengeful as he is.

I was not personally saying that Athran would get away with shooting shin in this case. The point is that those in Faith can do whatever they want. They answer only personally to Dullindale so unless he says that in such a case Athran was specifically wrong in his actions he has the abosolute right to do it.

Athran was pissed at Shinn he went to see him return and when attempting to avoid a altrication with Shinn. Shinn specifically started a fight and saying things he KNEW would bother Athran.

[Blues]

Originally posted by: DDBen


I was not personally saying that Athran would get away with shooting shin in this case. The point is that those in Faith can do whatever they want. They answer only personally to Dullindale so unless he says that in such a case Athran was specifically wrong in his actions he has the abosolute right to do it.

Athran was pissed at Shinn he went to see him return and when attempting to avoid a altrication with Shinn. Shinn specifically started a fight and saying things he KNEW would bother Athran.


While FAITH can do whatever they want, I don't think that killing a comrade would be something they could get away with. Dullindal didn't want Shinn dead in the first place, so I'm pretty sure he wouldn't excuse it.

Maybe in Shinn's eyes, Asuran would give him hell for following orders.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Blues
While FAITH can do whatever they want, I don't think that killing a comrade would be something they could get away with. Dullindal didn't want Shinn dead in the first place, so I'm pretty sure he wouldn't excuse it.

Maybe in Shinn's eyes, Asuran would give him hell for following orders.

You are completely missing the point of this statement. I'm not directly stating Athrun should have shot Shinn. I'm stating that being a member of Faith given him that right and as such slugging him is the least of what he could have done had he cared to used his actual position.

[NineTailsKitsu]

Being a member of Faith only really boils down to Asuran having an opinion in a given military situation, and the freedom to choose what he wishes to do. HOWEVER, It does'nt matter whether ' you want to do it or not' or 'but, but, but, Kira's my friend!' when it comes to orders. The Minerva was ordered to shoot down an enemy, that being the Archangel. Shinn, the ace pilot of the Minerva, was ordered to destroy the enemy: that being Kira. Just because it happened that Shinn wanted to kill Kira anyway is just circumstance, for Shinn it was killing two birds with one stone, a mindset useful in his given situation. For the Athrun lovers/Shinn haters, its as simple as this: Shinn is a soldier, who follows orders and Arthun is a spoiled child who thinks he's above doing what he's supposed to do.

''" Know your facts before you post something"'' heh....that's pretty funny.

[Sano]

Why does Dullindal want the Archangel gone? I thought he praised the Archangel's action from the previous war in the begnning of the series, and wanted the Minerva to "take a role similar to the Archangel's from the last war." I quoted that from Dullindal. Isn't that also that the reason Talia was made a member of FAITH? From watching the series, it seems Talia and Athuran aren't using their powers from being in FAITH very much at all. Even though the order to destroy the AA came from the Council, Talia could have objected/questioned the order as a member of Faith.

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: NineTailsKitsu
For the Athrun lovers/Shinn haters, its as simple as this: Shinn is a soldier, who follows orders and Arthun is a spoiled child who thinks he's above doing what he's supposed to do.


Lets put something strait here. Shinn is a child, who has to be treated like a child in order to get him to follow orders. He is insurbordinate, and so far, has not been punished (he got out of being executed). He is driven by anger, and acts without orders or the best interest of ZAFT in mind. He knew very well an extended's body would be valuable to researchers, but he took off in a mobile suit (thats probably court marshiable, but was ignored because he is "Mr. Super Ace") and dumped the body in a lake.

Athrun, was a retired soldier who decided that he could no longer sit by when the second war began. He made the decision, at the beginning of the series, that ZAFT was doing the right thing and so he lent his support to them. INSTEAD of putting him in a normal chain of command, and INSTEAD of treating him like a soldier, Dulindal put him in Faith where he would have the autonomy he required. At no point, at all, has Athrun been treated like or considered a soldier by ZAFT administration, and we shouldn't hold him to that standard either.

Athruns biggest mistake was not bailing on ZAFT when he had a badass mobile suit and he saw Kira had a reason to be opposing ZAFT. He shoulda bailed when he saw smoke, instead of waiting for the whole thing to start to burn around him.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: NineTailsKitsu
Being a member of Faith only really boils down to Asuran having an opinion in a given military situation, and the freedom to choose what he wishes to do. HOWEVER, It does'nt matter whether ' you want to do it or not' or 'but, but, but, Kira's my friend!' when it comes to orders. The Minerva was ordered to shoot down an enemy, that being the Archangel. Shinn, the ace pilot of the Minerva, was ordered to destroy the enemy: that being Kira. Just because it happened that Shinn wanted to kill Kira anyway is just circumstance, for Shinn it was killing two birds with one stone, a mindset useful in his given situation. For the Athrun lovers/Shinn haters, its as simple as this: Shinn is a soldier, who follows orders and Arthun is a spoiled child who thinks he's above doing what he's supposed to do.

''" Know your facts before you post something"'' heh....that's pretty funny.

This was no coincidence, Dullindale has been grooming Shinn to take down Freedom from day 1. Thats why he has the impulse and why after destroy and getting the report that Dullindale decided to send them after the AA. The reason being he knows Shinn purely runs on emotions and at the time he blamed Kira for the death of Stellar. Shinn is nothing more then one of Dullindales pawns which is why when they showed the chess board the black pawn was in place to take out the white rook which signifies the AA.



Originally posted by: MeroTZ
Lets put something strait here. Shinn is a child, who has to be treated like a child in order to get him to follow orders. He is insurbordinate, and so far, has not been punished (he got out of being executed). He is driven by anger, and acts without orders or the best interest of ZAFT in mind. He knew very well an extended's body would be valuable to researchers, but he took off in a mobile suit (thats probably court marshiable, but was ignored because he is "Mr. Super Ace") and dumped the body in a lake.

I agree with much of your statement except for Stellars body as it was useless to Zaft being they already had pleanty of data from dead and disected extended this was the same reason they wanted to deliver her alive to Gebralter.

[kinggalaxia]

wow, Ben, I love your chess reference. gotta say, we should break down who's who on the chess board. Before your post there, I only figured that Rau was the White King.

oh and Blues is my best friend irl. his opinions/posts are inspired by me. so if you see a lack of me on the topics, you'll know why. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

[Blues]

Originally posted by: DDBen


You are completely missing the point of this statement. I'm not directly stating Athrun should have shot Shinn. I'm stating that being a member of Faith given him that right and as such slugging him is the least of what he could have done had he cared to used his actual position.

I get your point. I'm just saying that while FAITH may give Asuran a lot of power, I don't think going around slugging his comrades is one of those powers. Because if he abused his power in that way, you better be damn sure Dullindal would put a stop to it. Especially against someone whom ZAFT seems to think so highly of.

[Blues]

Originally posted by: kinggalaxia
wow, Ben, I love your chess reference. gotta say, we should break down who's who on the chess board. Before your post there, I only figured that Rau was the White King.

oh and Blues is my best friend irl. his opinions/posts are inspired by me. so if you see a lack of me on the topics, you'll know why.

Well I can be assure we won't agree on EVERYTHING. But I do feel pretty damn strongly about this particular topic. Especially when it comes to Kira and Shinn and their respective fans.

[PSJ]

So now a discussion about which is the better soldier started, Shinn or Asuran? I'd say they are equally bad soldiers at this point. Asuran acts like an idiot instead of a soldier and shouldn't have rejoined ZAFT in the first place. Shinn is NOT the model soldier all you Shinn likers say he is. Shinn has done some questionable things, one which he would be executed for but since Dulinandal likes him he got off easy.

This shows really how the ZAFT military works. The officer fighting AA until Minerva appeared ignored direct orders and acted on his own accord with the statement "Talia is just a woman anyway". Then we have Hiene who tells Shinn and the rest of the pilots at Minerva that they should all be like one big happy family instead of soldiers. Makes you question ZAFT a bit doesn't it?

On the other hand we have Kira and Cagalli suger coating everything and trying to justify it with "This is Orb's ideals". No wonder they got labeled an enemy when acting like that. Trying to stop soldiers doing their duty to protect their country and saying that they should just desert EAF and leave Orb at extreme danger is questionable as well.

Both sides got negative things about them. Both sides are diffrent and attract diffrent people. Being totally objective is impossible seing as you got an opinion and it will reflect in the way you write. This post will probably not sound totally objective either but im not trying to be totally objective. In the end discussions like these will never end, some think Asuran punching Shinn was justified and some think Shinn's arrogance at the time was justified. Well that's my 2 cents on this, feel free to critize me all you want. i'll try to answer the best i can.

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: Blues
Bottom line is this Shinn Asuka is not Kira Yamato. IMO, he's better, because he's not the typical whiney crybaby who hates war but is being forced to fight...it was fine with Amuro Ray, but after 26 years of it....I'm tired of it....That's why I liked Kamille Budan in Zeta...he broke the mold....same thing here with Shinn. If people would get past hating him, they'll see that he is actually a complex character...and after spending two years in his shoes, I challenge you to not end up as arroagant and vengeful as he is.

You need to learn to differenciate between people who hate shinn the person and those who hate Shinn the character. I (and I had thought DDBen, I dont wanna put words in his mouth but I thought he did...) think Shinn is a wonderful character... but I think he is an asshole and deserves to die horribly at Kira (or better yet, Athruns') hands.

I dont want to be called a "Shinn hater" because I think Shinn is a great character (no greater or less great than Kira) but I hate his personality with a passion. He's the type of person I would hate to be anywhere near in reality. He's a remorseless killer, and I think people like that should be shot after a short trial. But hey, that may just be me.

Also, Blues, Stop double posting. You are going to get in trouble for it.

PSJ: Interesting point about the ZAFT military and how it works.

[kinggalaxia]

very well written, PSJ. In fact, me & Blues got this bud who's a Kira lover and it's pretty rough to try to not sound sadist around him, LOL. And honestly, I do tell this guy that Kira is right on some levels; it's just that I do not enjoy how he goes about carrying his business.

You're so right. They both have good & bad in them. I'm very glad that you, as well as others (Terra in particular) are open-minded and analyze both sides to find both light & dark in all the characters. Mucho kudos! ^_^

[FelixZeroAlastor]

Now there seems to be alot of controversy over the punch that Athrun gave Shinn. I don't think Athrun was ever gonna hit Shinn. It wasn't until Shinn said something about Athrun wanting Shinn to have been shot down by Kira, that really pissed Athrun off. Athrun doesn't hate Shinn at all from what I see. Throughout the series ,up until Savior got shot down, Athrun has been trying to theach Shinn and help him with his listening/respect problem. Heck, I think Athrun even tried to extend the arms of friendship towards Shinn. He also definatily didn't want Shinn to get shot down by Kira at all. The only thing that I see Athrun disliking Shinn for is the way Shinn goes about handling things. Like DDBen said, for all Athrun cared he could've shot Shinn right betwenn the eyes seeing as he has the authority to do so but, he didn't. All he did was grab him until Shinn started talking about getting shot down. Now I'll agree that Athrun has done about nothing sime Savior was totaled but, this ep just shows you that he has maintained his brains and maturity even over his moping period. Oh, and for those of you who say that Athrun has done nothing this entire series but mope and be a pussy, watch this series again. He did alot up until he lost Savior.

It seems to me that the only army personel on the Minerva with half a brain are Athrun and Talia. They seem to know the line between what orders to obey and what orders to disobey. Talia gave the AA last ep a chance to surrender at least. For those of you who don't know yes that would've been against orders. And Athrun, well he is gonna desert. And yes deserting is really bad.

Now the Rey touching Shinn. It isn't because he is gay. That was just a joke. This is probably so that Shinn will feel more like Rey's friend and so that Shinn feels... I don't know secure or something. This in turn makes it a bit easier for Shinn to be controlled.

As for being soldiers, Shinn and athrun suck as soldiers.

And I am not a Shinn-hater. He is accually pretty cool.(except his attitude)

Edit: Kira and the AA got what they deserved. I was a bit happy when the freedom was destroyed. Athrun even warned them but they just kept going. They even fucked up Athrun in the process. I was even happy and laughing when Shinn shot at Cagalli to shut her up. This is another reason Shinn is cool too.

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: FelixZeroAlastor
Shinn is a little kid with a gun. By all rights he should be dead right now seeing all this crap that he has done. The only reason that he is alive is because Dullindal wants him to be.

Now there seems to be alot of controversy over the punch that Athrun gave Shinn. I don't think Athrun was ever gonna hit Shinn. It wasn't until Shinn said something about Athrun wanting Shinn to have been shot down by Kira, that really pissed Athrun off. Athrun doesn't hate Shinn at all from what I see. Throughout the series ,up until Savior got shot down, Athrun has been trying to theach Shinn and help him with his listening/respect problem. Heck, I think Athrun even tried to extend the arms of friendship towards Shinn. He also definatily didn't want Shinn to get shot down by Kira at all. The only thing that I see Athrun disliking Shinn for is the way Shinn goes about handling things. Like DDBen said, for all Athrun cared he could've shot Shinn right betwenn the eyes seeing as he has the authority to do so but, he didn't. All he did was grab him until Shinn started talking about getting shot down. Now I'll agree that Athrun has done about nothing sime Savior was totaled but, this ep just shows you that he has maintained his brains and maturity even over his moping period. Oh, and for those of you who say that Athrun has done nothing this entire series but mope and be a pussy, watch this series again. He did alot up until he lost Savior.

It seems to me that the only army personel on the Minerva with half a brain are Athrun and Talia. They seem to know the line between what orders to obey and what orders to disobey. Talia gave the AA last ep a chance to surrender at least. For those of you who don't know yes that would've been against orders. And Athrun, well he is gonna desert. And yes deserting is really bad.

Now the Rey touching Shinn. It isn't because he is gay. That was just a joke. This is probably so that Shinn will feel more like Rey's friend and so that Shinn feels... I don't know secure or something. This in turn makes it a bit easier for Shinn to be controlled.

As for being soldiers, Shinn and athrun suck as soldiers.

And I am not a Shinn-hater. He is accually pretty cool.(except his attitude)

BRILLIANT! Seriously, great post. Very good points about how Athrun has tried to help Shinn out, and how much Athrun has accomplished up till this point. I mean, really, wasn't the whole plan to knock out that Lohengrin his?

As for Rey, I'd almost say he is doing with a plan what Flay did to Kira. he is totally mindf***ing Shinn so as to get him to do what he wants, which appears to be to kill lots of people.

[kinggalaxia]

Hehehe, this is turning into psychoanalysis vs. enjoyment of character. This is great!!

AND philosophy. The definition of a soldier...the line between right and wrong. You know when fans verbally beat each other over their views of these and other things that it is a true Gundam series. i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

[Blues]

Originally posted by: PSJ
So now a discussion about which is the better soldier started, Shinn or Asuran? I'd say they are equally bad soldiers at this point. Asuran acts like an idiot instead of a soldier and shouldn't have rejoined ZAFT in the first place. Shinn is NOT the model soldier all you Shinn likers say he is. Shinn has done some questionable things, one which he would be executed for but since Dulinandal likes him he got off easy.

This shows really how the ZAFT military works. The officer fighting AA until Minerva appeared ignored direct orders and acted on his own accord with the statement "Talia is just a woman anyway". Then we have Hiene who tells Shinn and the rest of the pilots at Minerva that they should all be like one big happy family instead of soldiers. Makes you question ZAFT a bit doesn't it?

On the other hand we have Kira and Cagalli suger coating everything and trying to justify it with "This is Orb's ideals". No wonder they got labeled an enemy when acting like that. Trying to stop soldiers doing their duty to protect their country and saying that they should just desert EAF and leave Orb at extreme danger is questionable as well.

Both sides got negative things about them. Both sides are diffrent and attract diffrent people. Being totally objective is impossible seing as you got an opinion and it will reflect in the way you write. This post will probably not sound totally objective either but im not trying to be totally objective. In the end discussions like these will never end, some think Asuran punching Shinn was justified and some think Shinn's arrogance at the time was justified. Well that's my 2 cents on this, feel free to critize me all you want. i'll try to answer the best i can.


Oh I agree. Shinn isn't the perfect soldier. My issue is with people who criticize Shinn for one thing but then praise Asuran or Kira for the same thing.

Everyone is a pawn in this war...Shinn, Asuran, Kira. They're all being used in some way.

But in this particular case, Shinn was just following orders...The fact that they coincided with his own desires might not necessarily be a circumstance, but you have to remember that Shinn wasn't really actively trying to kill Kira until Stellar died.



Originally posted by: MeroTZ

You need to learn to differenciate between people who hate shinn the person and those who hate Shinn the character. I (and I had thought DDBen, I dont wanna put words in his mouth but I thought he did...) think Shinn is a wonderful character... but I think he is an asshole and deserves to die horribly at Kira (or better yet, Athruns') hands.

I dont want to be called a "Shinn hater" because I think Shinn is a great character (no greater or less great than Kira) but I hate his personality with a passion. He's the type of person I would hate to be anywhere near in reality. He's a remorseless killer, and I think people like that should be shot after a short trial. But hey, that may just be me.

Also, Blues, Stop double posting. You are going to get in trouble for it.


I respect your opinion. Yes, Shinn's personality is terrible, but, I can see how he got that way. Personally, I think the character and the personality coincide with one another. And we have seen a softer side of Shinn, both before Stellar died and before his family was killed. I wouldn't go as far as saying he's a remorseless killer though. In his eyes, he's been wronged and he's taking justice into his own hands.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about Shinn. I'm just stating how I feel about him.

Oh, and sorry about the double posts. I'm not used to this message board yet.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: kinggalaxia
wow, Ben, I love your chess reference. gotta say, we should break down who's who on the chess board. Before your post there, I only figured that Rau was the White King.

oh and Blues is my best friend irl. his opinions/posts are inspired by me. so if you see a lack of me on the topics, you'll know why.

To me atleast its pretty clear that Shinn was the black pawn. This is because when he went up against the AA and freedom I see him as having taken Kira's piece which would be the white knight or white King this hasn't really been stated yet but I assume Djibril is more likely the white king. In place of that the black pawn is at a position to either take out the white rook which to me is the AA. If he had taken out the AA he would have made it to the other side and become a piece of his choosing. As the AA choose to run that to me represents the black pawn making it to the other side without taking out the rook. This still means that Shinn becomes a differn't piece (in this case by being given destiny). The pawn on the other hand could represent the entire minerva and no just Shinn but either way the result is the same.

@MeroTZ your statement was correct Shinn is indeed a character I like the writting behind but hate on a much more personal level.

[MeroTZ]

Just thought I'd throw this out there to throw in some discord.

Dulindal is playing both sides of the board.

It fits, what with him manipulating EVERYONE.
Dont forget that, because it is probably significant.

[Terracosmo]

Originally posted by: Dannynonsense
you were the last person we needed to join this argrument Mr. Joule

You were the last person we needed to get born Mr. Nonsense.
Now go and do something constructive, like taking an overdose.

---

@Merotz:

"In the spirit of friendly argument, I'd like to say they are both sucky soldiers. Namely, look at Shinn's history of insubordination and flat out treachery. Hell, if Dulindal didn't have plans for him, he'd have been executed after the whole Stellar thing."

I agree. To be honest, my post was not to be taken too seriously when it comes to this. Athrun's & Shinn's respective skill as soldiers can be discussed forever, since they are both right and wrong simultaneously (depending on your views and so on).

[Dannynonsense]

aaawwww come on cant take a joke i only said it since your argrument was actually a good one since your neither a kira or shinn supporter but whats with the overdose crack dont you think that maybe talking it to far mr. joule

but anyways go yzak!!

[kinggalaxia]

O.o.....aha, yeah....okay

methinks you took it far first, not only by telling him that he has no right in the topic, but also humoring his affection for Ysak. Also...."anywayz go yzak!!!"??? *snickers*

[Mae]

This is more interesting than the usual conversation, so I'll throw in my two cents. About being a soldier, or course it's important to trust your superiors and obey orders. But that depends on haveing a superior that you can trust. Tallia made some comment earlier about how soldiers obey good orders more readily than bad ones. The thing is attacing the AA at that time made no sense. Yes, they weren't allies, but they weren't enemies yet, and they had actually helped win the battle against Destroy (you could argue that they were the deciding factor). And Dillandal had just made his big speech about how Djibril and his bunch were the only true enemies that they should fight. He knew that AA had nothing to do with them. And he knew Cagalli, the leader of one of Earth's most powerful nations, was hiding on the ship. He should have wanted to negotiate with them, or at the very least capture them, not elimiate the entire crew. IMO Tallia understood her orders were wrong and missed on purpose.


Athrun has some experience following leaders whose real goals are a lot different than what they tell the public. After all, his own father turned out to be a genocidal maniac. Dillandel isn't just after peace, he's after power. Why take out Lacus? Because she has power and influence, and she just might not agree with his plans. Why take out Cagalli and the AA? It's not because they are enemies, but because they might be seen as heroes, and the Chairman doesn't want the competition. When what your commander says doesn't match up with what he does than it's time to look for a new commander.

Shin is more like a young Athrun. He believes in what Dillandal says and overlooks what doesn't match his beliefs. I think this is more from his youth and inexperience than anything else. He could turn around when he discovers the truth.

Edit: some cut and paste issues, turned out wierd.

[FelixZeroAlastor]

Originally posted by: Mae
This is more interesting than the usual conversation, so I'll throw in my two cents. About being a soldier, or course it's important to trust your superiors and obey orders. But that depends on haveing a superior that you can trust. Tallia made some comment earlier about how soldiers obey good orders more readily than bad ones. The thing is attacing the AA at that time made no sense. Yes, they weren't allies, but they weren't enemies yet, and they had actually helped win the battle against Destroy (you could argue that they were the deciding factor). And Dillandal had just made his big speech about how Djibril and his bunch were the only true enemies that they should fight. He knew that AA had nothing to do with them. And he knew Cagalli, the leader of one of Earth's most powerful nations, was hiding on the ship. He should have wanted to negotiate with them, or at the very least capture them, not elimiate the entire crew. IMO Tallia understood her orders were wrong and missed on purpose.

Athrun has some experience following leaders whose real goals are a lot different than what they tell the public. After all, his own father turned out to be a genocidal maniac. Dillandel isn't just after peace, he's after power. Why take out Lacus? Because she has power and influence, and she just might not agree with his plans. Why take out Cagalli and the AA? They helped win the battle against Destroy (you could argue they were the deciding factor). They could be strong allies. No, it's not because they are enemies, but because they might be seen as heroes, and the Chairman doesn't want the competition. When what your commander says doesn't match up with what he does than it's time to look for a new commander.

Shin is more like a young Athrun. He believes in what Dillandal says and overlooks what doesn't match his beliefs. I think this is more from his youth and inexperience than anything else. He could turn around when he discovers the truth.

Wow. Great post. The first paragraph is very true. Except for Talia missing on purpose. I am pretty sure that all she does is give orders. The aiming and firing of the cannon is completely handled by someone else. And Thee AA was indeed hit by the Tanhausser. Other than that great post.

[Roko]

well, she delayed in giving the order to fire, letting AA have more time to escape and submerge deeper under water, so that they wouldn't take as much damage.

[Blues]

The "AA being an enemy" thing is relative. Here you have a faction with a powerful Gundam in Freedom. They've proven to be pretty unpredictable. Of course WE know their intentions and that they shouldn't be considered enemies, but no one else does, save Asuran...and he didn't tell anyone.

I can see where ZAFT is coming from. Better safe than sorry....especially in war. I know Dullindal just got finished saying that LOGOS was the enemy, but like I said before...no one knew where Archangel stood.

At this point, things are very confusing. On the one hand you have the EAF. On the other you have ZAFT. Then you have the AA, whom have an alligence with no one. Then you have LOGOS. They seem to be pulling all the strings.....but then you have Dullindal. There is a lot more to him than meets the eye. I wouldn't be surprised if he was behind everything in the first place. But I'm sure you all knew that.

[bigdaddy843]

Originally posted by: Blues
The "AA being an enemy" thing is relative. Here you have a faction with a powerful Gundam in Freedom. They've proven to be pretty unpredictable. Of course WE know their intentions and that they shouldn't be considered enemies, but no one else does, save Asuran...and he didn't tell anyone.

I can see where ZAFT is coming from. Better safe than sorry....especially in war. I know Dullindal just got finished saying that LOGOS was the enemy, but like I said before...no one knew where Archangel stood.

At this point, things are very confusing. On the one hand you have the EAF. On the other you have ZAFT. Then you have the AA, whom have an alligence with no one. Then you have LOGOS. They seem to be pulling all the strings.....but then you have Dullindal. There is a lot more to him than meets the eye. I wouldn't be surprised if he was behind everything in the first place. But I'm sure you all knew that.

well, your first statement is definitely true, I can see how the rest of the world sees the AA, especially since it appears taht they have been popping up almost randomly, fighting against both sides.

In my opinion, Dullindal may even be part of the Logos, in some sort of conspiracy, or he may be trying to seize power once the Logos have been eradicated.

[chitgoks]

kira isnt considered a pawn in this series. and im sure he was never part of dullindal's plans. if he was indeed the one who ordered the assassination of lacus, then he expected his soldiers to assassinate lacus adn everyone (including kira). having kira in the war , showing up unexpectedly, i dont think he expected that imo

[antoine]

I agree.

The only reason AA was declared the enemy was because Dullindal felt threatened by two people, Kira and Lacus. Though he knows Lacus is at/near plant, he wanted to eliminate at least one of the two.

[LokeXero]

[quote]
Originally posted by: Blues
The "AA being an enemy" thing is relative. Here you have a faction with a powerful Gundam in Freedom. They've proven to be pretty unpredictable. Of course WE know their intentions and that they shouldn't be considered enemies, but no one else does, save Asuran...and he didn't tell anyone.

Athrun did tell others there intentions (Talia is one who knows, i guess Shinn and Rey as well and prob Dullindal) and Lunamaria knows as well so its not like no one else knows. It like in ep 34 when shin and rey were studying "Since Freedom/AA its not an Ally we have to treat it as an enemy"

[Blues]

Originally posted by: bigdaddy843


In my opinion, Dullindal may even be part of the Logos, in some sort of conspiracy, or he may be trying to seize power once the Logos have been eradicated.


My thoughts exactly. But then again, does he really NEED the power? I mean he managed to have the entirety of Earth and Plant eating out of his hand.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Blues


Originally posted by: bigdaddy843


In my opinion, Dullindal may even be part of the Logos, in some sort of conspiracy, or he may be trying to seize power once the Logos have been eradicated.


My thoughts exactly. But then again, does he really NEED the power? I mean he managed to have the entirety of Earth and Plant eating out of his hand.

He doesn't want power back during the clip show about Raul and his relationship he stated his objective was to wipe out everything and start over. His main goal is the same as Rauls which is quite simply kill everything. Right now he's making moves to ensure he is the only military power and with nutcases like Shinn following him he's going to have a army of fanatics at his fingertips. Anyone who disagree's he just labels a enemy and has them killed off.

[bigdaddy843]

Originally posted by: DDBen

He doesn't want power back during the clip show about Raul and his relationship he stated his objective was to wipe out everything and start over. His main goal is the same as Rauls which is quite simply kill everything. Right now he's making moves to ensure he is the only military power and with nutcases like Shinn following him he's going to have a army of fanatics at his fingertips. Anyone who disagree's he just labels a enemy and has them killed off.

Wow, good point, it would seem to appear true that that is Dullindal's hidden or not so hidden agenda.

[Curium]

Originally posted by: Mae
IMO Tallia understood her orders were wrong and missed on purpose.


Since she didn't say anything about missing, whether or not it missed is pretty much to whoever was pushing the buttons controlling the Tannhauser. It was quite clear she was trying to let them go though. First wasting time by offering to allow them to surrender, then waiting to use the Tannhauser. It would have been very easy to use their positron cannon as soon as they got behind the Archangel but they didn't. Eventually to keep up the act she did order it activated, but it was clearly Arthur that was all worried about them getting away.



Originally posted by: Blues
The "AA being an enemy" thing is relative. Here you have a faction with a powerful Gundam in Freedom. They've proven to be pretty unpredictable. Of course WE know their intentions and that they shouldn't be considered enemies, but no one else does, save Asuran...and he didn't tell anyone.


Like LokeXero said the problem wasn't that they didn't know, it was that they DID know. Remember Lunamaria taped the whole conversation between Athrun, Kira, and Cagalli. She gave it to Talia who almost certainly listened too it, and very well may have passed it on. They knew that the Archangel was concerned about the assassination attempt on Lacus and that was definitaly something Dullindal did not want going public.

Oh, and remember Cagalli said that the Sairen's had connections with at least one of the Logos members. That could have been used as an excuse.



Originally posted by: Blues
My thoughts exactly. But then again, does he really NEED the power? I mean he managed to have the entirety of Earth and Plant eating out of his hand.

The thing with this statement is that very rarely do people who are seeking power and control over everyone acctually NEED it. They just want it.

[NineTailsKitsu]

In my opinion, I don't believe that Dullindal is trying to make Shinn into a mindless "psychotic" follower, but rather that he's using Shinn as a poster boy. I mean, Shinn came from humble beginnings, lost his family to the previous war and through his anger rose through the military to become a "Super Ace" of ZAFT. I mean propoganda wise Shinn is the perfect solider: he's defeated countless enemy units, taken down fleets by himself, he destroyed the Destroy unit and then defeated the Legendary ace and pilot of the Freedom, Kira Yamato. Who better to be the poster boy of Dullindal's new campaign against LOGOS and those that would side with them? That is the reason Dullindal won't punish Shinn, and that is the reason why he is constantly rewarded. As for the comment that Shinn is insane, well...Taken into account what has happened to him during the course of the series, who would'nt be in a severely confused state after that? When you talk about the reason Athrun punched Shinn, being "upset that his best friend and girlfriend were blown up", thats pure hypocrisy. When you think that, then also think "but hey, didn't Kira kinda kill Shinn's entire family, and THEN kill the only girl Shinn ever loved?"...Think about it, cause If you think that Shinn deserved that punch from Athrun, then Kira should have gotten much worse then nearly dying.

[FelixZeroAlastor]

Originally posted by: NineTailsKitsu
When you talk about the reason Athrun punched Shinn, being "upset that his best friend and girlfriend were blown up", thats pure hypocrisy. When you think that, then also think "but hey, didn't Kira kinda kill Shinn's entire family, and THEN kill the only girl Shinn ever loved?"...Think about it, cause If you think that Shinn deserved that punch from Athrun, then Kira should have gotten much worse then nearly dying.

For the lask freakin time. Athrun didn't punch Shinn out of anger for Kira and the AA(though he was very close to). He punched Shinn mainly because Shinn said that Athrun wanted Kira to shot him down instead. Athrun considers Shinn a close comrade. Heck, maybe even as a friend. Hearing how Shinn thinks that Athrun would rather have him die than Kira just pissed off Athrun. So that punch was well deserved. Athrun would've probably rather avoided that battle completely.

No one knows who killed Shinn's family as he didn't even see it. If he did see and noticed it was freedom he would've flashed back during a fight with it. I am not gonna say anything about Stellar cause that will start up that conversation again.

I can partially understand Shinn but not completely seeing as I am not him and haven't experienced what he has been through. Right now I agree with most of his actions thus far and disagree with some just the same. For now that is all I can say on his actions. I do really hate his personality though.

[bigdaddy843]

Originally posted by: NineTailsKitsu
In my opinion, I don't believe that Dullindal is trying to make Shinn into a mindless "psychotic" follower, but rather that he's using Shinn as a poster boy. I mean, Shinn came from humble beginnings, lost his family to the previous war and through his anger rose through the military to become a "Super Ace" of ZAFT. I mean propoganda wise Shinn is the perfect solider: he's defeated countless enemy units, taken down fleets by himself, he destroyed the Destroy unit and then defeated the Legendary ace and pilot of the Freedom, Kira Yamato. Who better to be the poster boy of Dullindal's new campaign against LOGOS and those that would side with them? That is the reason Dullindal won't punish Shinn, and that is the reason why he is constantly rewarded. As for the comment that Shinn is insane, well...Taken into account what has happened to him during the course of the series, who would'nt be in a severely confused state after that? When you talk about the reason Athrun punched Shinn, being "upset that his best friend and girlfriend were blown up", thats pure hypocrisy. When you think that, then also think "but hey, didn't Kira kinda kill Shinn's entire family, and THEN kill the only girl Shinn ever loved?"...Think about it, cause If you think that Shinn deserved that punch from Athrun, then Kira should have gotten much worse then nearly dying.

true, however don't we have to note that after Kira realised that killing people was not the way to go, he always tried not to kill people, wheras it appears that Shinn is indicriminately slaughtering his enemies. I also feel tht the reasonm why Athrun punched Shinn was not because of his best pal and girlfriend being blown up but more because he was upset with Shinn's continual problem with his attitide.

[Curium]

Originally posted by: FelixZeroAlastor
No one knows who killed Shinn's family as he didn't even see it. If he did see and noticed it was freedom he would've flashed back during a fight with it.

Personally I believe that it was a shot from Freedom that was deflected by Forbidden.

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: NineTailsKitsu
As for the comment that Shinn is insane, well...Taken into account what has happened to him during the course of the series, who would'nt be in a severely confused state after that? When you talk about the reason Athrun punched Shinn, being "upset that his best friend and girlfriend were blown up", thats pure hypocrisy. When you think that, then also think "but hey, didn't Kira kinda kill Shinn's entire family, and THEN kill the only girl Shinn ever loved?"...Think about it, cause If you think that Shinn deserved that punch from Athrun, then Kira should have gotten much worse then nearly dying.

First, to respond to your last quote, Kira did get much worse than nearly dieing for his crimes, several times. He watched Yzak kill a Shuttle full of people he had saved, people who should have been safe and who had counted on him for protection. He was forced to kill (so he thought) Andrew Waldfelt, a man he knew was not a bad person. And he watched, helpless, as Flay was killed mercilessly for no reason other than to get to him. These things are probably worse than losing his family... note, it never seemed like he was that close to his false parents anyway.

Kira has been pushed hard... far harder, I would say than Mr. "I'm so tragic" Shinn. And did he go crazy and try to take revenge? Did he place blame where it didn't belong? No, he reformed, decided on a course of action, and a means to accomplish it, and followed it through until he was finally shot down. And by god, he did pretty well. How many pilots have been not-killed because he took them down instead of somebody like Shinn? How many times over has the ArchAngel been saved by his actions? Sure, there were setbacks, but he knew what he wanted and followed through with it.

Shinn's past is no excuse for his actions. Just because he has had it rough, is no excuse for his fall. As Kira (and Athrun) proves, a person can not only deal with it WITHOUT becoming a psychopath, but can become a very good person. Shinn needs to take responsibilty, and learn to acccept his past and not hold a grudge against people who hold no real blame.

I dont think he will. This is a good thing.

[Vegita]

Originally posted by: MeroTZ
First, to respond to your last quote, Kira did get much worse than nearly dieing for his crimes, several times. He watched Yzak kill a Shuttle full of people he had saved, people who should have been safe and who had counted on him for protection. He was forced to kill (so he thought) Andrew Waldfelt, a man he knew was not a bad person. And he watched, helpless, as Flay was killed mercilessly for no reason other than to get to him. These things are probably worse than losing his family... note, it never seemed like he was that close to his false parents anyway.


Ok, so you would rather have your entire family killed in front of your eyes than watch a shuttle full of strangers get killed? And you would also rather have your entire family killed in front of you than kill some you dont know?

Let's be reasonable here.

[DragonBladeX]

Originally posted by: MeroTZ


Originally posted by: NineTailsKitsu
As for the comment that Shinn is insane, well...Taken into account what has happened to him during the course of the series, who would'nt be in a severely confused state after that? When you talk about the reason Athrun punched Shinn, being "upset that his best friend and girlfriend were blown up", thats pure hypocrisy. When you think that, then also think "but hey, didn't Kira kinda kill Shinn's entire family, and THEN kill the only girl Shinn ever loved?"...Think about it, cause If you think that Shinn deserved that punch from Athrun, then Kira should have gotten much worse then nearly dying.

Kira has been pushed hard... far harder, I would say than Mr. "I'm so tragic" Shinn. And did he go crazy and try to take revenge? Did he place blame where it didn't belong? No, he reformed, decided on a course of action, and a means to accomplish it, and followed it through until he was finally shot down. And by god, he did pretty well. How many pilots have been not-killed because he took them down instead of somebody like Shinn? How many times over has the ArchAngel been saved by his actions? Sure, there were setbacks, but he knew what he wanted and followed through with it.

While I'll agree Kira has been pushed hard in GS, remember in the face-off between him and Athrun, there was moment he sort of snapped there along with Athrun and they end up nearly killing each other. By themselves, they really could'nt have recovered from the trauma of that incident and reformed without the help of Cagalli and Lacus. Kira might have gone into further shock at killing his friend but Athrun was still pretty stubborn til Cagalli decked him for even thinking of killing Kira, his best childhood friend.

[Millenium-Boyz]

Kira and Arthrun both have experienced the trauma from the war that they did in seed that is why they make this "no killing" motto, but i think kira have a stronger mental than arthrun and considering his MS is better than arthrun that is why he is capable of protecting archangel just by himself and trying to stop the war, while arthrun doesnt really plan about his tactis or what he will do or he have no reason of being a FAITH member, that is probably he is being a hippy

[PSJ]

Originally posted by: NineTailsKitsu
In my opinion, I don't believe that Dullindal is trying to make Shinn into a mindless "psychotic" follower, but rather that he's using Shinn as a poster boy. I mean, Shinn came from humble beginnings, lost his family to the previous war and through his anger rose through the military to become a "Super Ace" of ZAFT. I mean propoganda wise Shinn is the perfect solider: he's defeated countless enemy units, taken down fleets by himself, he destroyed the Destroy unit and then defeated the Legendary ace and pilot of the Freedom, Kira Yamato. Who better to be the poster boy of Dullindal's new campaign against LOGOS and those that would side with them? That is the reason Dullindal won't punish Shinn, and that is the reason why he is constantly rewarded. As for the comment that Shinn is insane, well...Taken into account what has happened to him during the course of the series, who would'nt be in a severely confused state after that? When you talk about the reason Athrun punched Shinn, being "upset that his best friend and girlfriend were blown up", thats pure hypocrisy. When you think that, then also think "but hey, didn't Kira kinda kill Shinn's entire family, and THEN kill the only girl Shinn ever loved?"...Think about it, cause If you think that Shinn deserved that punch from Athrun, then Kira should have gotten much worse then nearly dying.

First off Kira never killed his family, it was a stray shot from the battle that was made pretty clear. Saying that Shinn loved Stellar is going a bit overboard isn't it? He liked her but love is a strong word. In your opinion stopping a giant killingmachine should be punished by death in Kira's case? When saying Shinn only did his duty by taking down Freedom and then say that Kira did wrong in taking down Destroy seems a bit hypocritical to me. One can fight but not the other?

If you excuse Shinn's behaviour by what has happened to him i don't see why you can't excuse Asurans behaviour in the same manner. He went through alot to, he got no real family either. Don't go around calling people hypocritical and then be it yourself.

[Millenium-Boyz]

did talia actually know that the one pilloting Destroy was stellar?
because if she does know that i find no reason why shin didnt get punished badly, Shin is the one who supposed to get the worst punishment, not stellar, he put stellar in danger by returning it to Neo, he is the one who killed stellar even though its indirect kill, and then in 35 he arrogantly said to asuran "I got my revenge" what revenge? for kira killing stellar ? OMG I hate that guy as much as I hate Fray(Kira's 1st girlfriend in seed)

[PSJ]

I found it funny how you called Stellar "It".

[Motteh]

just saw Haro^2 Tori^2's sub so i'll give my opinion about events in ep. 35 and my view on events in ep. 36
but i'll be ignoring all preview spoilers for coming episodes and what's been said already (i'll leave that to another time)
if you still feel like flaming my ass please do so, you will not get to me with it

about ep. 35: Kira has been put back in the picture sooner then expected but they have answered the question as why Freedom didn't cause a nuclear explosion, since Kira shut down the nuclear reactor
Murrue Ramius (or whatever the spelling is) seems to have overcome the shock from the initial encounter with Neo, who in his turn seems to have information and his own opinion about Mwu La Flaga
(i'll keep referring to him as Neo unless the actually re-becomes Mwu again IF that ever happens)
Shinn really hates Athrun, that much is clear now, openly taunting Athrun by saying he took "revenge for him too" when he knew Athrun knew Freedom's pilot very well, as such i can more then understand Athrun's response, hitting him in the face would've been my response as well
Rey in my opinion is going down a similar path as Rau did, that's the only reason i can explain the Rau flashbacks we've seen in scenes with Rey during the series, and also because of his behaviour lately
also it's safe to say that other then Djibril all of Logos is gone, maybe except for the ones residing in Orb but we'll see about that when ArchAngel arrives in Orb i think
i'm really wondering what Dullindal meant with "let's see if this will become the trump card or not" when in the Destiny/Legend hangar with Meer, especially since he had a very sinister look on his face
and Shinn was actually quite adorable (like a little kid would be) when he heard he'd get a new unit, he really seemed genuinly happy without any signs of his normal asshole attitude
Athrun on the other hand seemed very distraught (i doubt if i used the word in the right context) about it though

and now for my preview of ep.36: Athrun will leave for ArchAngel/Orb, that much is certain because of the title of the next episode (well not 100% certain since they only say he'll defect but it's very unlikely he'll turn over to fight for the EAF), however judging from the last sentence and the images shown i doubt he will take Gaia, there's no clear indication he will and since they say "fly towards the stormy sea, Gouf" i think he'll use a Gouf for his escape, also i think he will not be leaving alone, judging from the scene where he was with Meyrin and because he extends his hand towards someone in the last shots of the preview i suspect he'll take Meyrin with him, might be Lunamaria too since it seems she's moved closer towards Athrun in the last couple of episodes
i also think we won't see ArchAngel arriving in Orb just yet because Murrue stated they had to pick a careful route not to encounter any enemies and also that the ZAFT offensive against DJibril will either not be scheduled to commence immediately or will be postponed because of Athrun's defection

this concludes my views on episodes 35 and 36, i clearly state again that this is my opinion and i have chosen to ignore any other speculations and spoilers, so if that is a reason for anyone to start an (flaming) offensive on me feel free to do so but it will not show much result

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: NineTailsKitsu
In my opinion, I don't believe that Dullindal is trying to make Shinn into a mindless "psychotic" follower, but rather that he's using Shinn as a poster boy. I mean, Shinn came from humble beginnings, lost his family to the previous war and through his anger rose through the military to become a "Super Ace" of ZAFT. I mean propoganda wise Shinn is the perfect solider: he's defeated countless enemy units, taken down fleets by himself, he destroyed the Destroy unit and then defeated the Legendary ace and pilot of the Freedom, Kira Yamato. Who better to be the poster boy of Dullindal's new campaign against LOGOS and those that would side with them? That is the reason Dullindal won't punish Shinn, and that is the reason why he is constantly rewarded. As for the comment that Shinn is insane, well...Taken into account what has happened to him during the course of the series, who would'nt be in a severely confused state after that? When you talk about the reason Athrun punched Shinn, being "upset that his best friend and girlfriend were blown up", thats pure hypocrisy. When you think that, then also think "but hey, didn't Kira kinda kill Shinn's entire family, and THEN kill the only girl Shinn ever loved?"...Think about it, cause If you think that Shinn deserved that punch from Athrun, then Kira should have gotten much worse then nearly dying.

Incorrect the only reason that Dullindale is forgiving anything Shinn does is because he desires Shinn to be completely loyal to Zaft. This is shown every step of the way because despite anything Shinn has accomplished his actions in every single case have furthered the war and not stopped it. Please note that this is directly against everything that Dullindale says he is trying to accomplish and there is absolutely no other reason that Shinn would still be a pilot at this point.

Also for some side notes...
1. Shinn did NOT stop Destroy Kira did this isn't even argueable.
2. Shinn gave back Stellar which granted Destroy a pilot he would not kill meaning he couldn't have stopped it.
3. Shinn is completely unstable this has been shown during the entire series and he does not follow orders at all.
4. The propoganda film that Dullindale showed is the only thing that made Shinn into what your claiming he is as it was carefully edited to make Shinn look like the hero of Zaft. If you actually believe that then you need to rewatch the series instead of refering simply to the propoganda video.



Originally posted by: Millenium-Boyz
did talia actually know that the one pilloting Destroy was stellar?
because if she does know that i find no reason why shin didnt get punished badly, Shin is the one who supposed to get the worst punishment, not stellar, he put stellar in danger by returning it to Neo, he is the one who killed stellar even though its indirect kill, and then in 35 he arrogantly said to asuran "I got my revenge" what revenge? for kira killing stellar ? OMG I hate that guy as much as I hate Fray(Kira's 1st girlfriend in seed)

The short answer is yes she did. Not only did they hear it over the radio but they watched Shinn carry her body from the wreckage and run off with it.

[NineTailsKitsu]

Originally posted by: DDBen


Originally posted by: NineTailsKitsu
In my opinion, I don't believe that Dullindal is trying to make Shinn into a mindless "psychotic" follower, but rather that he's using Shinn as a poster boy. I mean, Shinn came from humble beginnings, lost his family to the previous war and through his anger rose through the military to become a "Super Ace" of ZAFT. I mean propoganda wise Shinn is the perfect solider: he's defeated countless enemy units, taken down fleets by himself, he destroyed the Destroy unit and then defeated the Legendary ace and pilot of the Freedom, Kira Yamato. Who better to be the poster boy of Dullindal's new campaign against LOGOS and those that would side with them? That is the reason Dullindal won't punish Shinn, and that is the reason why he is constantly rewarded. As for the comment that Shinn is insane, well...Taken into account what has happened to him during the course of the series, who would'nt be in a severely confused state after that? When you talk about the reason Athrun punched Shinn, being "upset that his best friend and girlfriend were blown up", thats pure hypocrisy. When you think that, then also think "but hey, didn't Kira kinda kill Shinn's entire family, and THEN kill the only girl Shinn ever loved?"...Think about it, cause If you think that Shinn deserved that punch from Athrun, then Kira should have gotten much worse then nearly dying.

Incorrect the only reason that Dullindale is forgiving anything Shinn does is because he desires Shinn to be completely loyal to Zaft. This is shown every step of the way because despite anything Shinn has accomplished his actions in every single case have furthered the war and not stopped it. Please note that this is directly against everything that Dullindale says he is trying to accomplish and there is absolutely no other reason that Shinn would still be a pilot at this point.

Also for some side notes...
1. Shinn did NOT stop Destroy Kira did this isn't even argueable.
2. Shinn gave back Stellar which granted Destroy a pilot he would not kill meaning he couldn't have stopped it.
3. Shinn is completely unstable this has been shown during the entire series and he does not follow orders at all.
4. The propoganda film that Dullindale showed is the only thing that made Shinn into what your claiming he is as it was carefully edited to make Shinn look like the hero of Zaft. If you actually believe that then you need to rewatch the series instead of refering simply to the propoganda video.



Originally posted by: Millenium-Boyz
did talia actually know that the one pilloting Destroy was stellar?
because if she does know that i find no reason why shin didnt get punished badly, Shin is the one who supposed to get the worst punishment, not stellar, he put stellar in danger by returning it to Neo, he is the one who killed stellar even though its indirect kill, and then in 35 he arrogantly said to asuran "I got my revenge" what revenge? for kira killing stellar ? OMG I hate that guy as much as I hate Fray(Kira's 1st girlfriend in seed)

The short answer is yes she did. Not only did they hear it over the radio but they watched Shinn carry her body from the wreckage and run off with it.


You missed my point completely. I wasn't saying that Shinn defeated Destroy, but that due to Dullindal's propoganda video, Shinn was made out to have done those things. Not to mention, when was Shinn's insubordination ever recorded or leaked to non-military personell? It was'nt. Saying that "He was saved to be a loyal member of ZAFT" is ridiculous. If that's the case, then why does Military reprimand even exist in the series, or mention it at all. Whats Dullindal's reasoning behind "saving" Shinn? Come on, use your head. The reason he keeps "saving" Shinn is for a useful, powerful propoganda tool. Or shall I explain what a poster-boy is?

[Jurojin]

Originally posted by: DDBen
Also for some side notes...
1. Shinn did NOT stop Destroy Kira did this isn't even argueable.
2. Shinn gave back Stellar which granted Destroy a pilot he would not kill meaning he couldn't have stopped it.
3. Shinn is completely unstable this has been shown during the entire series and he does not follow orders at all.
4. The propoganda film that Dullindale showed is the only thing that made Shinn into what your claiming he is as it was carefully edited to make Shinn look like the hero of Zaft. If you actually believe that then you need to rewatch the series instead of refering simply to the propoganda video.

Did you even read his post? He was saying WHY Shinn is a propaganda poster child. "I mean propaganda wise Shinn is the perfect solider:" He didn't say he bought into it ~_~


Also, Destroy would have been piloted by someone else if he had not given Stellar back. That it turned out to be Stellar was at best a bad twist of fate for those concerned. Don't pin the deaths of all those in the cities Destroy burned down on Shinn giving Stellar back, when common sense dictates that it could have been anyone else, like Sting, or even Neo could have piloted it.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: NineTailsKitsu
You missed my point completely. I wasn't saying that Shinn defeated Destroy, but that due to Dullindal's propoganda video, Shinn was made out to have done those things. Not to mention, when was Shinn's insubordination ever recorded or leaked to non-military personell? It was'nt. Saying that "He was saved to be a loyal member of ZAFT" is ridiculous. If that's the case, then why does Military reprimand even exist in the series, or mention it at all. Whats Dullindal's reasoning behind "saving" Shinn? Come on, use your head. The reason he keeps "saving" Shinn is for a useful, powerful propoganda tool. Or shall I explain what a poster-boy is?

And if thats the case how is that any differn't then Dullindale molding Shinn into someone who blindly follows orders. He's been rewarding him no matter what he does to keep him loyal as everything he has done has worked towards his final goal. The only reason your point was misunderstood is because you claimed my earlier statement about Dullindale using Shinn as a tool in the first place was incorrect. What your posting here on the other hand is exactly what you quoted me saying and called incorrect. I do agree with it however.

Edit: Hmm seems I misread his earlier post in part as he's both arguing and making the same point. If Shinn is the posterboy please note that is the same as being fanatically loyal to Zaft the differnce is Dullindale is justifying his actions with his propaganda video's and that Shinn seems to believe what dullindale is saying.

Edit 2:


Originally posted by: Jurojin
Did you even read his post? He was saying WHY Shinn is a propaganda poster child. "I mean propaganda wise Shinn is the perfect solider:" He didn't say he bought into it ~_~

Also, Destroy would have been piloted by someone else if he had not given Stellar back. That it turned out to be Stellar was at best a bad twist of fate for those concerned. Don't pin the deaths of all those in the cities Destroy burned down on Shinn giving Stellar back, when common sense dictates that it could have been anyone else, like Sting, or even Neo could have piloted it.

I just reread his post and I indeed misread it mostly because he was commenting on something I said and stating it was wrong then repeating the same thing I had previously stated.

That aside actually no Neo would not have been able to pilot Destroy in such a manor either would Sting. This is because Stellar piloted Destroy in such a manor that she was only trying to survive she never once stopped to think what she was doing nor did she understand it was wrong because she had the mind of a child. Her entire mentality was that if she didn't kill everything something would in turn kill her.

Neo has atleast some degree of humanity and while he was able to use a girl like Stellar to the extend he did I don't believe he could have killed people nearly as freely as she did. As for Sting he would have let his Ego get in the way and Shinn wouldn't have had any reason to hesitate on killing him after cutting open the cockpit instead it would have unified the efforts of Minerva and AA. The point of using Stellar was that Neo knew it would divide his enimies .

[Jurojin]

lah blah blah, Shinn is indirectly, or directly, (however you put it), responsible for the deaths, blah blah blah. It's the same line from you >_< Forget it, I'm not going to bash my head against a brick wall to try and get you to see reason instead of pinning just about everything bad in the series on Shinn.

Oh, did you notice DDBen that Kira was not the one responsible for the "Let us look like we're dead so we can escape" idea? And that he's feeling guilty about losing Freedom like that? Makes it seem like *gasp* he's not the godly character you (and others) tried to paint him up as last thread. Oh noej, t3h sky is falling, t3h sky is falling!@!!!11!1!

[NineTailsKitsu]

The reason why you might think that I'm counter-pointing myself in argument to your past statement Is that I disagree with your opinion that a poster-boy is the same thing as a "Loyal Brainwashed Fanatic", when it isnt. Calling Shinn a loyal subbordinate counteracts the same thing you were presenting earlier, that "Shinn has gone against his orders time and time again", that would be insubordination. If Dullindal wanted a brainwashed loyalist, he would use Rey. However, Shinn has the background of mediocrity to push his image in the PR campaign to the people, Dullindal would only brainwash him to simply make it easier to push his propoganda, however at the moment Shinn's actions have corresponded with what Dullindal wants of him. Dullindal won't forwardly try to make him a "yes man" , giving him the freedom to act on his own is what is keeping Shinn loyal and I believe that Dullindal realizes that.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Jurojin
lah blah blah, Shinn is indirectly, or directly, (however you put it), responsible for the deaths, blah blah blah. It's the same line from you >_< Forget it, I'm not going to bash my head against a brick wall to try and get you to see reason instead of pinning just about everything bad in the series on Shinn.

Oh, did you notice DDBen that Kira was not the one responsible for the "Let us look like we're dead so we can escape" idea? And that he's feeling guilty about losing Freedom like that? Makes it seem like *gasp* he's not the godly character you (and others) tried to paint him up as last thread. Oh noej, t3h sky is falling, t3h sky is falling!@!!!11!1!

Kira turned off his phase shift armor in the middle of a hydrogen bomb to prevent a nuclear explosion. So I would certainly say that constitutes sacrificing yourself so that the AA can get away. The damage was purely allowed by Kira to prevent anyone dying who didn't need to. He shut down the reactor. I never once painted him as a god I did say it would make sense to use the shield to deflect the sword to a nonvital area. In the end he survived and has lived to fight another day meaning that Shinn failed while Kira succeded in there mission objectives.



Originally posted by: NineTailsKitsu
The reason why you might think that I'm counter-pointing myself in argument to your past statement Is that I disagree with your opinion that a poster-boy is the same thing as a "Loyal Brainwashed Fanatic", when it isnt. Calling Shinn a loyal subbordinate counteracts the same thing you were presenting earlier, that "Shinn has gone against his orders time and time again", that would be insubordination. If Dullindal wanted a brainwashed loyalist, he would use Rey. However, Shinn has the background of mediocrity to push his image in the PR campaign to the people, Dullindal would only brainwash him to simply make it easier to push his propoganda, however at the moment Shinn's actions have corresponded with what Dullindal wants of him. Dullindal won't forwardly try to make him a "yes man" , giving him the freedom to act on his own is what is keeping Shinn loyal and I believe that Dullindal realizes that.

I never called Shinn loyal. I simply stated that his actions benifit Dullindale's plans. The fact is that Shinn will goto any battlefield that Dullindale tells him to as long as he properly strokes Shinn's ego. Say with a shiney new nuclear toy of mass destruction. He has absolutely gone against the orders of Zaft which is the reason he should be repremanded. However he also believes that Dullindale understands his sense of Justice and in that manor he goes where ever he's told. He's a horrible PR guy without editing the footage to you benefit. Also note there is absolutely no reason for Zaft to make Strike freedom or Infinate Justice if Dullindale actually thought his puppet named Shinn was ever fully controllable. He's simply a piece in his game to be sacrificed and replaced the moment he acts against his boss.

[Jurojin]

"

Kira turned off his phase shift armor in the middle of a hydrogen bomb to prevent a nuclear explosion. So I would certainly say that constitutes sacrificing yourself so that the AA can get away. The damage was purely allowed by Kira to prevent anyone dying who didn't need to. He shut down the reactor. I never once painted him as a god I did say it would make sense to use the shield to deflect the sword to a nonvital area. In the end he survived and has lived to fight another day meaning that Shinn failed while Kira succeded in there mission objectives.

"


Or he shut down the reactor to prevent his own death ~_~ I give up. You're beyond saving.

[Vegita]

I agree with Jurojin. DDBen you are reading far too much into the motives of Kira when you are simply speculating. Are you going to stop, or is this discussion going absolutely nowhere?

[Motteh]

Kira turned off the reactor to save lives, whether it be just his own life or the lives of others as well doesn't really matter
point is that ZAFT's objective to destroy Freedom has been accomplished and in fact Shinn's objective has been completed as well, the objective was to take down Freedom, for both ZAFT and Shinn, and it's safe to say they have succeeded in that
the other part of the mission was to take down ArchAngel, in which they know they have not succeeded because it has been established that there is too little wreckage for ArchAngel to be destroyed
so in this case you have ArchAngel missing it's ace in the hole,
Athrun torn up by Kira's death (to him he can't be anything but dead) and by the chairman's behaviour/motives and thus planning his defection,
Shinn is very content with his victory over Freedom and his new mobile suit,
Dullindal is planning a new future for the world and Rey,
yes Rey's behaviour seems to support with Dullindal's motives but i'm still in the dark about his personal motives
so Rey is still somewhat of an enigma to me, although all the flashbacks to Rau seem to say that Rey will not be a supporter of Lacus and her little army

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Jurojin
"

Kira turned off his phase shift armor in the middle of a hydrogen bomb to prevent a nuclear explosion. So I would certainly say that constitutes sacrificing yourself so that the AA can get away. The damage was purely allowed by Kira to prevent anyone dying who didn't need to. He shut down the reactor. I never once painted him as a god I did say it would make sense to use the shield to deflect the sword to a nonvital area. In the end he survived and has lived to fight another day meaning that Shinn failed while Kira succeded in there mission objectives.

"


Or he shut down the reactor to prevent his own death ~_~ I give up. You're beyond saving.


If he only cared about his own life he would not have turned off his phase shift armor and his power supply. his concern was for everyone on the battlefield except himself. You can not take a act like that and turn it selfish by any rational means.

[Motteh]

Originally posted by: DDBen
If he only cared about his own life he would not have turned off his phase shift armor and his power supply. his concern was for everyone on the battlefield except himself. You can not take a act like that and turn it selfish by any rational means.
tell me, assuming he turned of the nuclear reactor to prevent it from exploding and thus risking everyone's life
how would he have saved his own life by leaving it on after being penetrated by the sword and thus having it explode?
he turned it off just as much to save his own life as others
and being a typical human being, he will most likely put his own life first

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Motteh


Originally posted by: DDBen
If he only cared about his own life he would not have turned off his phase shift armor and his power supply. his concern was for everyone on the battlefield except himself. You can not take a act like that and turn it selfish by any rational means.
tell me, assuming he turned of the nuclear reactor to prevent it from exploding and thus risking everyone's life
how would he have saved his own life by leaving it on after being penetrated by the sword and thus having it explode?
he turned it off just as much to save his own life as others
and being a typical human being, he will most likely put his own life first


The differnce is quite simply phase shift armor vs none. Not knowing the exact location of the nuclear core in freedom its very difficult to state weather or not Shinn's blow would have damaged the core in the first place. However as the sword had already penitraighted freedom in its entirety its fairly safe to say it had done the majority of damage it was capable of inflicting to freedom at that point. Note that Kira in his actions also disabled the head and hands of Impulse. Being the secondary explosion was about to hit which I'm sure both Kira and Shinn were aware of at the time. That explosion reguardless of the damage Shinn dealt could have still sent the reactor nuclear. If the reactor had exploded at the very least both Minerva and AA and all those aboard would have been killed in a instant.

Also Kira tried until the very end not to Kill Shinn with his final blow with the beam saber he could have looked to drive it through the cockpit had he aimed yet that was absolutely never his intention. The point is yes a average human would attempt to save his own life first but that is certainly not how Kira's character has been written at any point otherwise he would have never gotten off the couch to be involved in the first place.

edit: I guess I should actually answer your question while I'm at it. By leaving the phase shift armor intact during the hydrogen explosion Freedom would have had a FAR better chance of surviving however it would have risked the reactor going critical. The fact he turned it off to take the full brunt of it was not in any way done to protect himself.

[NineTailsKitsu]

Just a few small notes, this time. One, by the positioning of Impulse in his final strike at Freedom, Kira wouldn't have been able to hit it's cockpit. Two, more than likely Kira realized that the possibility of himself dying with this strike was very high and (Kira being who kira is) Didn't want the AA to be destroyed by the possible nuclear blast from his core and thus disengaged it. To save lives, yes this is true. However, weigh his friends lives over the Minerva and Shinn. Don't make that out to be more than it is.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: NineTailsKitsu
Just a few small notes, this time. One, by the positioning of Impulse in his final strike at Freedom, Kira wouldn't have been able to hit it's cockpit. Two, more than likely Kira realized that the possibility of himself dying with this strike was very high and (Kira being who kira is) Didn't want the AA to be destroyed by the possible nuclear blast from his core and thus disengaged it. To save lives, yes this is true. However, weigh his friends lives over the Minerva and Shinn. Don't make that out to be more than it is.

Kira has not in GSD made any distinction between the lives of friend or foe. In GS he did kill thats very blantant but he has yet to kill anyone reguardless of side in GSD. I do however agree he values the lives of those on AA above those on Minerva Athran aside.

Kira could have absolutely made a downward slash into Impulses body instead of a slash so simply decapitate it and remove the hands I don't see it as accurate that he made his attack without thinking about it.

[Jurojin]

Or, OR! It could have been a case of he was too surprised by Shinn's fury to do much else. But then, to you, Kira > Shinn in terms of piloting abilities, so that can't be it. Nope, gotta over-analyze and over-rationalize everything to make it so that Kira didn't look like he was beaten so badly as he looked like he was.

Kira was in a life or death situation. He made the choice that would have the best chance of him surviving an unavoidable attack like that, pure and simple. It was a combat decision. That's it. Nothing more to see here.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Jurojin
Or, OR! It could have been a case of he was too surprised by Shinn's fury to do much else. But then, to you, Kira > Shinn in terms of piloting abilities, so that can't be it. Nope, gotta over-analyze and over-rationalize everything to make it so that Kira didn't look like he was beaten so badly as he looked like he was.

Kira was in a life or death situation. He made the choice that would have the best chance of him surviving an unavoidable attack like that, pure and simple. It was a combat decision. That's it. Nothing more to see here.


I absolutely do believe Kira is a far better Pilot then Shinn. I also believe Shinn has not reached his full potential. The differnce is Kira had a large handycap in trying to only disable Shinn's suit while Shinn was trying to kill Kira. I don't think any of that is even remotely argueable. Do we know if Kira has reached his limit as a pilot... Of course not but we do know with100% certainty he has put limiters on his piloting skills in being unwilling to kill the enemy pilot.

[Jurojin]

Yeah, but the point is that you're trying to make this more than it is. You're giving Kira more credit than he's due, tbo. He had a VERY simple life or death choice, and you seem to want to complicate it into He was concerned with saving everyones life. Its just not plausible.

[NineTailsKitsu]

Downward slash at the cockpit? Someones guestimating a little bit. Add the velocity of Shinn's attack plus the LARGE difference in strike range of Shinn's anti-ship sword vs Kira's beam sabre and then calculate Kira's use of his shield. Kira was using his beam sabre in much the same way that pikes were used against enemies on horseback, in that Kira was hoping to lessen the damage by using the enemies momentum against him. However, If you notice the placement of Shinn's attack and Kira's placement of defense, there was no room for a 'downward slash' otherwise his defense would have been lowered and he the risk of him dying would have risen. So that's out.

As for Shinn = Kira in comparison to piloting ability, take into account the fact that Kira has been a pilot much longer than Shinn and that Kira was essentially bred to excell over others when comparing. When that comparison is made, I believe that even most Shinn haters should be able to admit that Shinn has increased in ability drastically in a short period of time. The major difference in the skill gap between Kira and Shinn is a simple matter of style: Shinn always aims to defeat the enemy as quickly as possible (that being the cockpit), while Kira aims to disable. Yes, Shinn had the advantage because he knows Kira doesn't aim to kill, however this comes at the old "Low vs High ground" theory, and raw skill isn't the only thing that makes a good pilot.

[MeroTZ]

You guys are crazy if you think Ben is wrong. Kira gave every indication of expecting to die, he shut off the reactor to save everyone else.

Just because you cant concieve of being selfless doesn't mean other people cant. And I dont think most people can concieve of being selfless, as I've not met many.

Kira is not the type to protect himself. He illustrates this in episode 35 when he comments on the loss of Freedom. He's not upset he lost his badass mobile suit: He's worried because now he's going to have a hell of a time defending his friends. Not a single thought about his own injuries. As well, at the end of SEED, his last charge a Rau was totally without thought for his own safety. He knew, that in order for the world of survive, he had to get rid of Rau. If Rau survived, even if Genesis was destroyed, the whole fiasco would just start over (he obviously should have done something about Rau's friends... mwahahahahah!). Thats why he pretty much gave up any real chance of survival in order to take out Rau.

Kira is selfless. He has no concept of saving his own life at the cost of another... only of protecting those he cares about.

[qilinkiddo]

its rather certain that kira's pilot skill is still better than shinn for the time being(up to episode 35...mayb it would change next time)
however i would say shinn is much a better pilot in a war...
since in war...its better that you kill your enemies today than getting killed by your enemies the other day

kira is sort of selfless in the sense in GS...he risk his life trying to save fllay...
when he was trying to save fllay in GS...he did not bother about whether he would be shot down by his enemies...
instead kira focus in saving fllay without even bothering about his enermies...
even after freedom head/main camera got destroyed...he did not even concern about it...
and still trying to save fllay without his concern in his safety...

[Jurojin]

Originally posted by: MeroTZ
Kira is t3h ub3r l33t!111!!!11!!1!



FTFY

[fox_t]

Don't forget that Kira is the Ultimate Coordinator.

So no matter how hard Shinn tries, he'll never be as good a pilot as Kira.

And before anyone challenges me as to what being the Ultimate Coordinator is please do your research...and no Shinn is not one of them...there are only two...

Canard Pars
Kira Yamato

[Dick Starbuck]

Originally posted by: NineTailsKitsu

As for Shinn = Kira in comparison to piloting ability, take into account the fact that Kira has been a pilot much longer than Shinn and that Kira was essentially bred to excell over others when comparing. .

yeah that's true but shinn is a trained soldier and kira isn't/wasn't (correct me if iam wrong) and i do admit that shinn skills has increased, and iam not a shinn hater or a kira lover

[NineTailsKitsu]

Originally posted by: fox_t
Don't forget that Kira is the Ultimate Coordinator.

So no matter how hard Shinn tries, he'll never be as good a pilot as Kira.

And before anyone challenges me as to what being the Ultimate Coordinator is please do your research...and no Shinn is not one of them...there are only two...

Canard Pars
Kira Yamato


I'm going to use a snippet from Kill Bill volume 2 to represent the stance of Ultimate Coordinator vs regular Coordinator:

~
Elle Driver: How's her Hanzo sword compared to yours?

Budd: ....When you compare a sword like a Hanzo sword, you compare it to every single sword in the world...that wasn't made by Hattori Hanzo.
~

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: Jurojin


Originally posted by: MeroTZ
Kira is t3h ub3r l33t!111!!!11!!1!



FTFY

Sir, I think you may have grossly misquoted me.

Kira is too good to be sullied with l33t.

i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

Regardless, he got shot down didn't he? I'm just saying he's a great person, with an outlook on things I wish I could duplicate. I think you are jealous.

[Jurojin]

No, I'm just sick of people putting Kira on a pedastal in everything he does, at least when he doesn't deserve it.




Kira is too good to be sullied with l33t


Ah, but he could be sullied with Fllay?

teasing i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

[Nai]

I wonder what everyone will say when Kira dies to Shinn ( Mmm, merely thinking about that makes me all hot and woozy! )

He did it so he could be returned to the earth and thus fuel the grass. Teehee. i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

Edit: Make that IF. I'd rather not have one thousand "OMFG KIRA WILL NEVER DIE TO SHINN WTF!!!" posts follow.

[PSJ]

Originally posted by: fox_t
Don't forget that Kira is the Ultimate Coordinator.

So no matter how hard Shinn tries, he'll never be as good a pilot as Kira.

And before anyone challenges me as to what being the Ultimate Coordinator is please do your research...and no Shinn is not one of them...there are only two...

Canard Pars
Kira Yamato

Canard Pars was a failure right? So there is only one successfully made Ultimate Coordinator.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Jurojin
No, I'm just sick of people putting Kira on a pedastal in everything he does, at least when he doesn't deserve it.

I am simply examing a character as he grows. In Kira's case he's a protector in Shinn's he's a Avenger. As you can never truely get revenge for anything being that no 2 things can ever be exactly equal it means that Shinn will never be able to obtain what he's looking for. While Kira can protect what he cares about for a time.

You don't have to put Kira on a pedastal in order to see his actions as selfless as that is meerly who he is. You also don't have to tear Shinn down to say his actions are purely for his own gain as he can never give anything to those who have died like his family or Stellar when all his actions do are further the war.



Originally posted by: Nai
I wonder what everyone will say when Kira dies to Shinn ( Mmm, merely thinking about that makes me all hot and woozy! )

He did it so he could be returned to the earth and thus fuel the grass. Teehee.

This will NEVER happen. The basic reason it would make GSD one of the most hated series ever considering people wanted a sequal to see what happens to there favorite characters killing them off is far from the move to make. Kira and Lacus need to have a happy ending possibly a double wedding with Athran and Calgari. If instead they kill off a main character and leave a loose end it will just enrage most of the fans who loved the first series.

random supporting characters however are fair game and killing off Shinn in the end is also fine as its about his only remaining chance at redemption (dying to stop the wars that killed those he loved that is).

[qilinkiddo]

anyway Kira is a Ultimate Coordinator...
but Kira could still lose if he did not tried his best to achieve the highest ''capacity''(ability to perform)

[PSJ]

Of course, being the ultimate coordinator doesn't mean that you automaticly is the greatest.

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: Jurojin
No, I'm just sick of people putting Kira on a pedastal in everything he does, at least when he doesn't deserve it.




Kira is too good to be sullied with l33t


Ah, but he could be sullied with Fllay?

teasing

Did you see Fllay? I'd sully myself with her i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

[qilinkiddo]

Originally posted by: PSJ
Of course, being the ultimate coordinator doesn't mean that you automaticly is the greatest.

haha i noe but after seeing fox_t post
im replying this to fox_t
just 4gotten to quote =x

[Dannynonsense]

ahem my thoughts is this shinn is a good pilot one because he graduate as an elite and with this war he's managed to improve his skill as for kira he is also a good pilot because he was force to be or else the archangel would sink. there both good pilots but at this point kira is the better pilot not saying shinn cant acheive his level but not yet first he needs destiny and to master his seed mode. next its unlikely kira would be killed by shinn since in the end its either he realizes his mistakes or dies or his suit is disabled.(because if kira were to die GSD would be the worst gundam series to fans)

on the kira and shinn battle shinn did have the advantage but was only able to take advantage of it because he improved. the final strike with the sword into freedom stomach can bring up a debate however you must realize something shinn was trying to kill kira which is why he aimed there. shinn did homework on freedom but didnt have any specs on it so he couldnt know where the cockpit is. take a look at the battle if kira really think his life was in immediate danger he would have never put his shield in that position. the point is there are so many factors in the battle and you people cant read minds so know one knows what was going on in his head. all we know humans have strong sense of self preservation and strong will for protecting people.

in the end both of them are good pilots but are at different levels due to their experiences and no kira wasnt a pilot longer than shinn (started piloting at the end of the war with strike and when freedom was wrecked stopped shinn has been training for two years) but then again who knows

[XwingRob]

Originally posted by: PSJ
Of course, being the ultimate coordinator doesn't mean that you automaticly is the greatest.


But but but, when your called the Ultimate... i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

[Motteh]

also don't forget Kira is the/a Ultimate Coordinator
NOT the ultimate pilot, those are 2 seperate things
not every coordinator is a good pilot, you need to practice/train to become one
which obviously is easier for coordinators then for naturals (damn them, i'll never be a great MS pilot myself then T_T i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif)

so basically with Kira being the Ultimate Coordinator doesn't mean there can't be a better pilot then him
since being a great pilot isn't all about skill

edit: i'll probably get jumped for making this post though <_<

[alukard]

I recalled Sasuke when i hear Shinn laugh. Funny sh!t. Sasuke laughing at Naruto as he was calling after him. This is delight you find when you open your present on christmas eve and its not another shirt/pants for the nth time but actually something was on your wish list. For Shinn it was simply getting revenge for someone he cared for. I dont think its too selfish of an action. You can say Kira's actions were selfish because he thought only of protecting a small cause when the bigger picture is that he's a coordinator on a human ship fighting other coordinators. Its tit 4 tat. You sometimes have to pay blood with blood.

[XwingRob]

My post was in jest...

[Dannynonsense]

sith all the speculation going on right now i wonder how most people will respond to the show's ending seeing that a lot of people are going to be wrong since they just watch the shows and dont pay attentions to any important details.

though i am a kira fan i have to say this like it was already mentioned kira is the ultimate coodinator but not the ultimate pilot. it may give him an edge but he still can beaten clearly show when asuran kicked his ass

yay i just relized this is my 100th post yay yippie wahooo yahoo

[XwingRob]

Eh, the Athrun versus Kira fight was a stalemate IMO. Both lost their mobiles suits and both got injured.

I think as long as SEED mode is on, the pilots can't die, even against other SEED users.

[Vegita]

Originally posted by: MeroTZ
You guys are crazy if you think Ben is wrong. Kira gave every indication of expecting to die, he shut off the reactor to save everyone else.

Just because you cant concieve of being selfless doesn't mean other people cant. And I dont think most people can concieve of being selfless, as I've not met many.

...


LOL ok so now you're making personal attacks over an animated cartoon.

Jurojin, I think we should stop - MeroTZ is getting a little too worked up over this. I don't want to be responsible for any psychological damage we could cause.

[Motteh]

Originally posted by: XwingRob
My post was in jest...
if you're referring to my post XwingRob, i was not talking to you specifically, but more in general to people who think/say that Kira is the best pilot ever (i'm exaggerating a little perhaps) because he's (one of the) Ultimate Coordinator(s)
if you weren't referring to my post then ignore this one

and to Dannynonsense: i do just watch the show, before every new episode i watch atleast the episode before that and sometimes more if i find that significant events from those episodes might return in the new one
this way i feel i can just watch the show and enjoy it to it's fullest extent

[XwingRob]

Originally posted by: Motteh


Originally posted by: XwingRob
My post was in jest...
if you're referring to my post XwingRob, i was not talking to you specifically, but more in general to people who think/say that Kira is the best pilot ever (i'm exaggerating a little perhaps) because he's (one of the) Ultimate Coordinator(s)



Er yeah, I thought you were taking my comment too seriously there, heh.

[Motteh]

well i wasn't so be at peace i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

[Dannynonsense]

Originally posted by: XwingRob
Eh, the Athrun versus Kira fight was a stalemate IMO. Both lost their mobiles suits and both got injured.

I think as long as SEED mode is on, the pilots can't die, even against other SEED users.

didnt asuran choose to blow up his mobile suit to ensure his victory i wouldnt say it if i didnt know what i was talking about about as for the seed mode thing maybe because those people just happen to be the directors favorite character or who knows

[PSJ]

Mr. Nonsense if you read Rob's post you would notice that he said "IMO" which means "In My Opinion". With that said i would like to say that i agree with Rob on this one, it was a tie. Since both of them went in to kill each other not destroy each other's Gundam both failed.

As for that SEED mode thing i think Kira and Asuran are protected with the "Main character status" as they still both are main characters. Shinn got this protection to. That's the only reason they survive unexplainable events.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Dannynonsense


Originally posted by: XwingRob
Eh, the Athrun versus Kira fight was a stalemate IMO. Both lost their mobiles suits and both got injured.

I think as long as SEED mode is on, the pilots can't die, even against other SEED users.

didnt asuran choose to blow up his mobile suit to ensure his victory i wouldnt say it if i didnt know what i was talking about about as for the seed mode thing maybe because those people just happen to be the directors favorite character or who knows

actually I believe Athrun was out of power at the time of detonation as shortly after Aegis clamps onto strike the phase shift armor shuts down before Athrun officially turns on the self detonation.


That aside I think the more important notes of this episode involve Talia really starting to doubt Dullindale. Also note in the previous episode her second in command ordered the Minerva to fire before the AA was completely submerged and NOT Talia herself. This is very similar to how the captain/leuitenant worked on the AA in GS. At this point I really believe Talia is getting ready to abandon Zaft as she can tell that Dullindale is manipulating everyone even quoting either Dullindale himself or a instructer they shared about the only way you can make people fight is by giving them a cause.

[NineTailsKitsu]

That's the only thing about Seed that I always found funny...Desertion usually entails an easily large prison stay or at worst, execution. Yet, Kira and Athrun both go AWOL and no reprecussions happened whatsoever. You would think the EAF would be a little more interested in the capture of AA....But oh well.

[XwingRob]

Originally posted by: PSJ

As for that SEED mode thing i think Kira and Asuran are protected with the "Main character status" as they still both are main characters. Shinn got this protection to. That's the only reason they survive unexplainable events.

Yeah, that's the real reason. I'm just trying to sound smart about SEED. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

[FelixZeroAlastor]

I have a question. Was that button Kira pressed ,to turn off the reactor, always there? As many times as I have seen in that cockpit, I don't think that it was ever there. Just so you know I am asking this question is because I am bored and just happened to notice it.

[Motteh]

Originally posted by: FelixZeroAlastor
I have a question. Was that button Kira pressed ,to turn off the reactor, always there? As many times as I have seen in that cockpit, I don't think that it was ever there. Just so you know I am asking this question is because I am bored and just happened to notice it.
you never saw anything of the cockpit except of his targetting screen (and perhaps his thruster handles) i think
may be wrong here though

[XwingRob]

Hmm, yeah I don't think we ever seen that part before.

[FelixZeroAlastor]

Originally posted by: XwingRob
Hmm, yeah I don't think we ever seen that part before.

I think that that button was on the same screen that that we always see. I am pretty sure that it wasn't there. I'd notice a big red button. I am pretty sure Kira would've noticed it too. Oh yeah, will Shinn combust like Anakin did XwingBob?

[Curium]

It is possible the button was on a flip down panel (I don't feel like looking right now if we can tell or not). Remember all the Gundams have keyboards that normally fold up that can be brought out to work on the operating system. Also remember that Athrun had to open up a "drawer" (its time to goto bed I can't think of the right word oh well) to use the self destruct on both Aegis and Justice.

I think it would be natural to have it covered, a button to completely shut down your own MS is not something that you want to have hit accidently in the middle of a battle.

[FelixZeroAlastor]

I just asked the question because I was bored. Don't worry about figuring it out.

[masamuneehs]

Well I was not surprised but still slightly disheartened to see Kira Yamato still alive... The hero never dies eh? And the 2 new units that have been blabbed about on the forums for some time in advance finally show up. This episode was pretty good, I enjoyed the interaction between Shinn & Athrun, with Rey as a semi-mediator, as always.

In reagards to Rey, I have some high hopes that he will become a sort of reluctant villain in GSD. He just needs to get a kick-ass mobile suit and be able to hold his own in battle (like he suddenly discovers he has his own Seed) It certainly looks like he's on ZAFT til the bitter end, and Dullindal has been getting more and more blatantly evil.

Oh, as for Dullindal... why give Athrun a new unit? Didn't he see the look in his eyes? I thought the man was smart when it came to manipulating people, but it seems like he's just going to throw Athrun a insanely strong suit (the Legend, I'm guessing) and then Athrun quits and deserts ZAFT, along with that red haird chick... Come on Dullindal, you should have known better and given the Legend to Rey...

[Psyke]

Just watched this episode. Can't wait to see more interaction between Murrue and Neo/Mwu. 100% physical match but "not here anymore" as said by Marrue. Asuran's behind by the side lines long enough, and the punch he gave Shin had me cheering. Looking forward to the new Gundams and the Kira Asuran reunion.

[XwingRob]

Originally posted by: masamuneehs

In reagards to Rey, I have some high hopes that he will become a sort of reluctant villain in GSD. He just needs to get a kick-ass mobile suit and be able to hold his own in battle (like he suddenly discovers he has his own Seed) It certainly looks like he's on ZAFT til the bitter end, and Dullindal has been getting more and more blatantly evil.

Oh, as for Dullindal... why give Athrun a new unit? Didn't he see the look in his eyes? I thought the man was smart when it came to manipulating people, but it seems like he's just going to throw Athrun a insanely strong suit (the Legend, I'm guessing) and then Athrun quits and deserts ZAFT, along with that red haird chick... Come on Dullindal, you should have known better and given the Legend to Rey...

I don't think Rey would have the SEED. Since Rey is most likely a clone of Mu's father. And Mu, and Rau never had SEED. It's very unlikely that Rey would have it. But I beleive that Mu and Rau are classified as Newtypes... right?

I think Dullindal figured Athrun would have done something immediately after Archangel and Freedom was "destroyed". Since Athrun hasn't 1) Killed any ZAFT personnel or 2) Blown up Minvera-he must figure that Athrun is staying loyal.
Or perhaps Dullindal is schizophretic...

[masamuneehs]

I don't think Rey would have the SEED. Since Rey is most likely a clone of Mu's father. And Mu, and Rau never had SEED. It's very unlikely that Rey would have it. But I beleive that Mu and Rau are classified as Newtypes... right?

I think Dullindal figured Athrun would have done something immediately after Archangel and Freedom was "destroyed". Since Athrun hasn't 1) Killed any ZAFT personnel or 2) Blown up Minvera-he must figure that Athrun is staying loyal.
Or perhaps Dullindal is schizophretic...[/quote]

Dullindal seems like a pretty smart guy. And he wants to use Athrun to raise morale, give ZAFT a seasoned leader, and to use his power and keep him from teaming up with the ArchAngel. He's tried to get Mia to replace Lacus and woo Athrun over, which really has failed. I understand that Dullindall doesn't seem to have a way to keep tabs on Athrun and see how he's falling away from ZAFT, but the man takes a huge gamble on a guy who is so unsure of the cause compared to the when Dullindal put him into FAITH...

And I was merely commenting that Rey, in order to attain the role of Reincarnated Rau, needs to get considerably better at MS fighting, and that the fact that he'll probably be up against Kira, Athrun, Shinn or some combo or any one of those, he will be at a huge disadvantage without a Seed.

[darkshadow]

shinn could barely dodge the pods of neo's mobile armor in ep2 (or 3), rey did it without breaking a sweat, newtypes are born pilots

[PSJ]

Rey is a good pilot. In the begining of GSD better than Shinn. The reason he hasn't showed it is because he has to stay on the Minerva and protect it appearently, that seems to be his and Luna's task in battles.

[antoine]

Rey is probably a better pilot than Shinn because he's the main reason Shinn defeated Freedom. Before Rey told Shinn about the strategy, Shinn was just looking at simulations against Freedom and losing. Though Shinn accomplished defeating Kira, no one gives Rey any credit.

[Motteh]

Originally posted by: PSJ
Rey is a good pilot. In the begining of GSD better than Shinn. The reason he hasn't showed it is because he has to stay on the Minerva and protect it appearently, that seems to be his and Luna's task in battles.
also mainly because Zaku's can't fly
but why they don't/didn't use those flying pods Athrun, Yzak, Dearka and Nicol used back in Seed is another question


Originally posted by: antoine
Rey is probably a better pilot than Shinn because he's the main reason Shinn defeated Freedom. Before Rey told Shinn about the strategy, Shinn was just looking at simulations against Freedom and losing. Though Shinn accomplished defeating Kira, no one gives Rey any credit.
true, but Rey himself also said to Shinn "you were the one to defeat him" or something along those lines
because there is a difference between figuring out how to defeat an opponent and actually defeating him
that's why Rey isn't neccessarily a better pilot than Shinn (which i personally think he isn't

[Curium]

Originally posted by: Motteh


Originally posted by: PSJ
Rey is a good pilot. In the begining of GSD better than Shinn. The reason he hasn't showed it is because he has to stay on the Minerva and protect it appearently, that seems to be his and Luna's task in battles.
also mainly because Zaku's can't fly
but why they don't/didn't use those flying pods Athrun, Yzak, Dearka and Nicol used back in Seed is another question


Rey did use a Guul when they were going to the Extended research facility. They probably don't use them in combat too much because they are too vulnerable. Remember everytime they went after Archangel with them Kira always just targets the Guul and once it was destroyed the ZAFT Gundam's had to fall back.

EDIT: Also I don't know why they don't build a Wizard pack for the ZAKUs to make them fly. The EAF did it for their Windams.

[{GSD}Freedom owns]

yeh Shinn is most prob better pilot than Rey now but i think Rey was better at the start

[Motteh]

Originally posted by: Curium
Rey did use a Guul when they were going to the Extended research facility. They probably don't use them in combat too much because they are too vulnerable. Remember everytime they went after Archangel with them Kira always just targets the Guul and once it was destroyed the ZAFT Gundam's had to fall back.

EDIT: Also I don't know why they don't build a Wizard pack for the ZAKUs to make them fly. The EAF did it for their Windams.
my guess would be to put the focus more on Shinn's battles and progress
thus not distracting the viewer by throwing more flying objects into the mix
and your theory about the Guul's is probably correct, 1 direct hit always disables them

[darkshadow]

ehm well, it did fly on plant, are physics that different on plant?

[Deamon007]

there is a lower gravety on plant

[DragonBladeX]

Which explains why Gaia and Zakus without Wizard packs could fly in the PLANT colony. And also explains why on Earth, Gaia and Zakus with Wizard packs still do not fly/remain airborne for extended periods of time. Kind of a shame though. Zakus being reduced to plodding 'Infantry' on the ground unlike Ginns.

[PSJ]

Fuck ZAFT got the BABI's and the DINN's on Earth they don't need the ZAKU's to. It's unfortunate that all the significant characters that don't pilot Gundams pilots ZAKU's tho.

[Dannynonsense]

rey is a better pilot than shinn at the beginning of the series if you remmeber the episode one after the ea attack minerva on its way out of orb talia said she has always been wondering why the gave impluse to shinn and not rey (reason why because duillandal knew shinn had some hidden potential)

[ChaosK]

it was more like duillandal knew he could manupilate shinn easily because shinn lets his emotions blind him. Emotions are what cause's seed mode in case you havent noticed.

[Dannynonsense]

no i dont think thats right since the chairman picked him based on his dna not because he knew he could minuplate him as authur said in the episode " they say the chairman is excellent at examining dna maybe he knew something no on did" thankyou and know you facts before you post

[Digitalgirl]

maybe it was both.

[Dannynonsense]

thats more likely and also you would only want to minpulate someone whose usefull

[PSJ]

I agree with Mr. Nonsense for a change. Dullinandal is an expert at gene manipulation and DNA research so it's possible that he knew things about Shinn no one else did. If he knew about the SEED mode in Shinn that is enough reason for him to give Impulse to Shinn instead of Rey. A coordinator with SEED mode is the most powerful thing in this series.

[masamuneehs]

Well I tried to watch the RAW and just couldn't stand not knowing what the hell anyone was saying... But it seems like a really good episode.

Oops, I accidentally dropped this into the the wrong topic! Supposed to go into the RAW 36 topic...