Theory: Why people like/hate Kira/Shinn [Archive]

DDBen

Sun, 06-12-2005, 06:34 PM

Kira > Shinn; Watched GS prior to GSD

Originally posted by: Nai
Shinn > Kira; Watched GSD prior to GS. ( Jeez, I feel like such a total newbie! )

Why I don't like Kira? Eh, guess it's because I can't relate to the guy at all. Shinn is like most of us. He's an egoist, easily gets pissed off and has a tons of other flaws which I really don't care to list. Now, I can relate to him, and can understand him. Kira on the other hand.. he's just far too goodie-two-shoes and naive for me.

I definatly don't think most people can relate to Shinn. I don't think most people would go hey the girl I want just killed a few hundred thousand people most of whom were not even involved in the war. I know I'm going to go kill the guy that stoped her. I'm sorry but the fact is Shinn is a complete lunatic and I tend to believe that even the majority of his most loyal fans would have to admit that one.

Nai

Sun, 06-12-2005, 08:27 PM

Yeah, I'm sure you would be able to kill a person you loved or cared for without even flinching. Sure, Stellar did horrible things, but she did so without realizing what she was doing as she was being abused by the EAF. She had the mentality of a kid and acted out of pure fear, and Neo going "THE SCARY THINGS ARE COMING TO EAT YOU!!" did not help much. Shinn knew that and wanted to protect her, and I can't really consider him 'a lunatic' for wanting to do that. He made a promise and kept it until the end, as good as he could.

I would have done the same, as would most of you had, I reckon. And that is what I like about Shinn. He makes a much more believable character than Kira.

DDBen

Sun, 06-12-2005, 08:55 PM

Originally posted by: Nai
Yeah, I'm sure you would be able to kill a person you loved or cared for without even flinching. Sure, Stellar did horrible things, but she did so without realizing what she was doing as she was being abused by the EAF. She had the mentality of a kid and acted out of pure fear, and Neo going "THE SCARY THINGS ARE COMING TO EAT YOU!!" did not help much. Shinn knew that and wanted to protect her, and I can't really consider him 'a lunatic' for wanting to do that. He made a promise and kept it until the end, as good as he could.

I would have done the same, as would most of you had, I reckon. And that is what I like about Shinn. He makes a much more believable character than Kira.

I don't want this thread to become a discussion for this as its simply off topic if you wish to start a thread about how you can see yourself in Shinn I suggest you go into a mental esylum. I Also don't deney that Stellar was a victum. However the only person who physically hurt her in the entire battle was Shinn and there is simply no reason she should have died in the first place. I'm ending any discussion of this matter in this thread on my end here for good.

Terracosmo

Sun, 06-12-2005, 10:09 PM

Personally, I think a lot of people have converted to Kira fanboys because they hate Shinn so much and really has no choice but to like "the other main character".
Kira was unpopular throughout more or less all of Seed. This sudden Kira worshipping is really strange.

I agree with Nai.
I can't see why someone should head to a mental "esylum" for seeing themselves in Shinn as DDBen states.
Shinn is a very human character, except with an attitude (which in a way is also quite human...).
Despite that, I find him to be very sympathic. It can't possibly be easy to lose yet another person in the same manner as he lost Mayu.
It's easy for us watchers to say that "OMG stupid Shinn oolol it was obviously not Kira's fault that Stellar died", but would you seriously think so when put in Shinn's position?
I severely doubt that.

LokeXero

Sun, 06-12-2005, 10:11 PM

ohh Shut Up DDBen Kira Destroyed Destroy, Shinn might have slashed it first but Kira Killed It , period.

And dont post again, Kira was a lunatic in Seed several times did you complain then,

I'm Shinn > Kira Watched GS prior to GSD

i simply prefer Shinn cause hes more like me, Kira often takes the high moral ground on everything, IMHO he wants peace for everybody yet he doesnt commit to pacifism.

Terracosmo

Sun, 06-12-2005, 10:16 PM

Kira is a fucking hypocrite.
Also, it's annoying how he keeps stepping in acting like he owns the damn place. He should stay home and hug Lacus & the blind guy.

Curium

Sun, 06-12-2005, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
Kira is a fucking hypocrite.
Also, it's annoying how he keeps stepping in acting like he owns the damn place. He should stay home and hug Lacus & the blind guy.

He tried that. ZAFT didn't let him.

Terracosmo

Sun, 06-12-2005, 11:36 PM

Well, that's also true.

But one can always dream!

Curium

Mon, 06-13-2005, 01:28 AM

Well way back in episode 14 before Archangel launched Murrue asked Kira if going would be the right thing to do. Here is his response (at least according to A-Kingdom - AonE subs):

"Although we don't know what would truly be the right thing to do, if we gaveup, that would be wrong, wouldn't it? Keeping quiet even though we are aware would also be wrong, wouldn't it? We know very well what the results of that would be.

FelixZeroAlastor

Mon, 06-13-2005, 02:03 AM

Kira wishes for peace right. Then what the hell is the point in blasting every suit in a radius and leaving it defenseless. That just pisses off everyone around you. His gundams name is Freedom right. Then he needs to start saving people and freeing them something cause his way is in no way helping this war end. I don't even understand why his Gundam's name is freedom. I thought that stood for something important to Kira's ideals or something but apparently not. The only person that Kira freed in this show is Stellar. Saved her from being in that hellish world in which she was gonna die either way it went after she boarded destroy.

Now Shinn. Just who the hell is Shinn. Out of all the people in the war how does an unimpotant nobody come out of nowhere and school Kira and talk down to Asuran. What gives him the right to do these things. I don't even care if he loved Stellar. I know that he knows that Stellar killed Heine. I know that he also knows that Stellar wiped out three cites with thens of thousands of people. Didn't Shinn join Zaft to stop other people from suffering like he did. Even if he did love her she probably just created thousands of more Shinns. I guess we know why Shinn pilots a suit named impulse. Because he acts on his impulses.

If I had to go with one I'd have to pick Kira > Shinn; Watched GS prior to GSD. This is just because Kira has the Freedom. If he didn't I would go with neither and pick Asuran cause he's the coolest and my favorite male character of the entire series but he's not on this poll so yeah. Go Kira... I guess.

Curium

Mon, 06-13-2005, 02:22 AM

Originally posted by: FelixZeroAlastor
Kira wishes for peace right. Then what the hell is the point in blasting every suit in a radius and leaving it defenseless. That just pisses off everyone around you. His gundams name is Freedom right. Then he needs to start saving people and freeing them something cause his way is in no way helping this war end. I don't even understand why his Gundam's name is freedom. I thought that stood for something important to Kira's ideals or something but apparently not. The only person that Kira freed in this show is Stellar. Saved her from being in that hellish world in which she was gonna die either way it went after she boarded destroy.

Keep in mind that Freedom was named by ZAFT before it was stolen. If you want to with symbolism you could say that Kira wants everyone to be free to live in peace, but he has said himself he doesn't know the best way to do it. Since the Archangel left Orb, Freedom has gone into battle 4 times. The first 2 he was mainly there to protect Cagalli who was trying to take control of the Orb forces as Orb's representative, obviously that didn't go as planned. The other 2 were to stop Destroy, and to just defend the Archangel after ZAFT launched an all out attack on it as they had finally decided to return to Orb. I don't believe anyone can seriously question him fighting the last 2 at all, though the first 2 could have probably used some more planning.

Deamon007

Mon, 06-13-2005, 02:56 AM

Kira > Shinn Watched GS prior to GSD

antoine

Mon, 06-13-2005, 04:44 AM

Kira > Shinn GS -> GSD
lol felix...you are thinking too hard and the point of blasting every suit in sight is to stop the whole battle or is it that hard to understand?
Kira as you say "blows up" mobile suits from both sides within a given conflict, and the battling sides will not have sufficient forces to keep fighting and have no choice but to retreat.
just watch ep 23 again...

Dannynonsense

Mon, 06-13-2005, 05:11 AM

what the hell arent we supposed to be voting how many other threads can you talk about kira being a hypocrite or shinn being an ass go seed destiny thoughts thread dont screw this one up taking it way off topic just vote comment and call it day if you really want to say something there's another thread to say it

FelixZeroAlastor

Mon, 06-13-2005, 05:18 AM

Originally posted by: antoine
Kira > Shinn GS -> GSD
lol felix...you are thinking too hard and the point of blasting every suit in sight is to stop the whole battle or is it that hard to understand?
Kira as you say "blows up" mobile suits from both sides within a given conflict, and the battling sides will not have sufficient forces to keep fighting and have no choice but to retreat.
just watch ep 23 again...

I do not believe that I am thinking too hard. So what if he stops the battle. He isn't stopping the war. Let me give you something to think about here.

Let us say you are commanding the zaft forces. Your force is twice that of the EA's and your arimies morale is high. You are battling over a key stategic area that will help determine the out come of this war. 5 minutes into the battle Kira all by his lonesome comes in, disarms and incapacitates every suit on the field including yourself. Your entire force of 10,000 mobile suits was just defeated by this lone gundam. The EA had a hidden 5000 that would have accompanied the other 6000 suits on the field which Kira already took out. In the end both sides realize that this lone Freedom gundam just took out a total of 21,000 suits with complete ease. How is the commander (which is you) going to explain this to the higher ups. I don't know about you but, I would be pissed that this guy just came down and practically made a fool out of me, my army,and every thing I am fighting for.

Just because Kira can stop a battle won't mean that he doesn't piss off everyone else the process. If two armies are getting schooled by one gundam then they are just going to build newer and better suits so that they can take it out the next time. He isn't helping this war end at all by just taking away the guns. He may in fact be helping it just by doing those things.

DDBen

Mon, 06-13-2005, 08:41 AM

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
Kira was unpopular throughout more or less all of Seed. This sudden Kira worshipping is really strange.

Despite that, I find him to be very sympathic. It can't possibly be easy to lose yet another person in the same manner as he lost Mayu.

It's easy for us watchers to say that "OMG stupid Shinn oolol it was obviously not Kira's fault that Stellar died", but would you seriously think so when put in Shinn's position?
I severely doubt that.

First off Stellars death and Mayu's deaths can not be compared at all. Mayu and Shinns parents were civilians that were running for shelter that had nothing to do with the battle. Stellar while a victum who was controlled by fear was still a participant in the battle who had killed countless innocent people which would place her in more of a position to be compared to those who killed Shinns family then anything else. Also Kira changed a lot during Gundam Seed and I for one never disliked him at any point in the series to me he was a human who had something he was trying to protect. Shinn on the other hand only has things he wants to avenge.

Originally posted by: LokeXero
ohh Shut Up DDBen Kira Destroyed Destroy, Shinn might have slashed it first but Kira Killed It , period.

And dont post again, Kira was a lunatic in Seed several times did you complain then,

I'm Shinn > Kira Watched GS prior to GSD

i simply prefer Shinn cause hes more like me, Kira often takes the high moral ground on everything, IMHO he wants peace for everybody yet he doesnt commit to pacifism.

ok lets see Kira was a civilian. While on the other hand Shinn is a full member of the military. Also I do not deney that Kira destroyed Destroy I simply state that Stellar died of absolutely nothing. Heck when Shinn dumps her in a lake there isn't even any blood so its not like she could have had any physical wounds meaning the only thing she could have died from would be mental as absolutely nothing was physically wrong with her.

Originally posted by: FelixZeroAlastor

I do not believe that I am thinking too hard. So what if he stops the battle. He isn't stopping the war. Let me give you something to think about here.

Please note that I'm only quoting part of this to save on space but the responce is to the entire statement. First off your numbers are insane there is no point that Kira takes out more then 50 suits in any battle and even at the final battle in space at the end of GS there were not even close to 10,000 MS. That aside your statement is correct Kira disabling both sides as he was would only cause both sides to use bigger weapons. However, please note in the specific battles your are refering to Kira had no intention of stopping the war by fighting. He still hadn't picked a side he was involved to simply keep Orb from fighting per his sisters request and thus delaying the battle while Calgari attempted to talk some sense into Orb was all that Kira accomplished.

FelixZeroAlastor

Mon, 06-13-2005, 08:53 AM

I know my numbers are insane but it was just an example though. I just wanted it to be dramatic so don't worry about it. And for future reference if I talk about Kira and battles it never includes the orb battle of GSD. If it sounded like I was including that one then I am sorry about that. I mean just a lot of the other battle that he participated in.

That aside we are way off topic so lets just cut this conversation here.

darkshadow

Mon, 06-13-2005, 09:08 AM

stellars and mayu's death have everything to do which each other, he lost another 1 he loved, and they were both killed in a war/battle that didnt have to take place

DDBen

Mon, 06-13-2005, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by: FelixZeroAlastor
I know my numbers are insane but it was just an example though. I just wanted it to be dramatic so don't worry about it. And for future reference if I talk about Kira and battles it never includes the orb battle of GSD. If it sounded like I was including that one then I am sorry about that. I mean just a lot of the other battle that he participated in.

That aside we are way off topic so lets just cut this conversation here.

This isn't entirely off topic as it involves reasons why people would like Shinn or Kira better. However, I am fine with ending it here and saving further discussion for another thread just one brief note.

Kira in GSD has been involved in 4 battles I can recall feel free to add any others I may have missed. The first two were involving orb with Kira attempting to stop orb from fighting. The third one was with Destroy where he went to stop the massacre of hundreds of thousands of innocent people. The fourth battle was in episode 34 where the AA was being hunted down by Zaft. Unless I'm forgetting something entirely I neglect to see what battles your talking about if not the Orb battles.

Alright thats taken care of now for this next statement.

Originally posted by: darkshadow
stellars and mayu's death have everything to do which each other, he lost another 1 he loved, and they were both killed in a war/battle that didnt have to take place

Um as far as who started the war in GS the war had started before the series so aside from the bloody valantine we lack any actual information about the reasons for starting the war. As for Mayu dying in a battle that didn't have to take place... Orb was being attacked they were defending themselves and told the civilians to evacuate so the choices here were surrender and make matters worse or defend the country so I don't see how this battle could be avoided.

As for Stellar she was going around killing hundreds of thousands of people. While the war was "avoidable" due to the circumstances nothing could have really been done to stop it. As for the battle Stellar really started it yes she was being used by the EA, but none the less she was the one genociding entire cities. Destroy absolutely had to go had Kira not shot down Neo do you honestly think Shinn could have gotten Stellar to pause without Neo telling her to continue?

So in short we have the differnce between a innocent civilian who had a battle show up at her doorstep and a member of the EA who was the main force being used in the battle and who was killing everyone she ran into.

Please feel free to show me ANY similarities between these two characters other then the fact that Shinn cared about them both.

Dick Starbuck

Mon, 06-13-2005, 09:39 AM

Kira > Shinn; Watched GS prior to GSD Shinn is just a arrogant fuck so i don't like him

Aeon

Mon, 06-13-2005, 09:40 AM

Shinn > Kira; Watched GS prior to GSD.

darkshadow

Mon, 06-13-2005, 10:54 AM

mayu's death was avoidable, according to shinn, if the atha family shouldnt "sugarcoat" everything they said, tehy ( shinn's family ) could have left orb alot earlier because of the threat of a war/attack breaking out

FelixZeroAlastor

Mon, 06-13-2005, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by: DDBen

Originally posted by: FelixZeroAlastor
I know my numbers are insane but it was just an example though. I just wanted it to be dramatic so don't worry about it. And for future reference if I talk about Kira and battles it never includes the orb battle of GSD. If it sounded like I was including that one then I am sorry about that. I mean just a lot of the other battle that he participated in.

That aside we are way off topic so lets just cut this conversation here.

This isn't entirely off topic as it involves reasons why people would like Shinn or Kira better. However, I am fine with ending it here and saving further discussion for another thread just one brief note.

Kira in GSD has been involved in 4 battles I can recall feel free to add any others I may have missed. The first two were involving orb with Kira attempting to stop orb from fighting. The third one was with Destroy where he went to stop the massacre of hundreds of thousands of innocent people. The fourth battle was in episode 34 where the AA was being hunted down by Zaft. Unless I'm forgetting something entirely I neglect to see what battles your talking about if not the Orb battles.

Alright thats taken care of now for this next statement.

I wasn't really talking GSD battles. I was including GS battles too.

Digitalgirl

Mon, 06-13-2005, 11:01 AM

Kira > Shinn; Watched GS prior to GSD

DDBen

Mon, 06-13-2005, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by: FelixZeroAlastor
I wasn't really talking GSD battles. I was including GS battles too.

In GSD Kira and the AA were being hunted by zaft during the entire series. Kira choose to go back and defend the AA after almost being killed by Athrun and Lacus gave him Freedom. I don't see a single avoidable battle for Kira that took place in Gundam seed. Feel free to enlighten me with a example.

Souryusen

Mon, 06-13-2005, 11:50 AM

Kira = Shinn

I watched GS befor GSD.

Kira is a sanctimonious blowhard with too much faith invested in the percieved invincibility of both his mobile suit and his ideals. Anyone who doesn't agree with his ideal is wrong and will have their MS blown out from under them.

Shinn has, perhaps, the most aptly named gundam in the series, since his life is goverened principally by impulse. ZAFT must not do much in the way of screening pilots for instability if they allowed this timebomb to pilot a MS. While I appreciate GSD for having a main character as belligerant and uncooperative as Shinn (rather than a wet blanket like Kira), his inability to see the world in a light other than that colored by his own experiences coupled with his bursts of batshit insanity (I hate loons) make it difficult for me to see him as anything other than an irritant.

Mwu needs to pull Aile Strike out of mothballs, beat the shit out of both of them and then bang their girlfriends (Luna x Shinn is almost a given) like screen doors in a hurricane. Man, he's a pimp.

FelixZeroAlastor

Mon, 06-13-2005, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by: DDBen

Originally posted by: FelixZeroAlastor
I wasn't really talking GSD battles. I was including GS battles too.

In GSD Kira and the AA were being hunted by zaft during the entire series. Kira choose to go back and defend the AA after almost being killed by Athrun and Lacus gave him Freedom. I don't see a single avoidable battle for Kira that took place in Gundam seed. Feel free to enlighten me with a example.

All right you win. I bow to your knowledge of the GS series and your work in getting only the facts. I am having to much fun in the What if thread to even argue or care about Shinn or Kira anymore. Asuran is the coolest anyways.

Guardian_2000

Mon, 06-13-2005, 12:07 PM

Kira >> Shinn GS prior to GSD

In terms of piloting, character, choice of gf. And yea I like Kira more than Shinn as well. Although I do find Shinn to be very interesting. Kira getting pissed and fed up with Athrun pushed his points way up when Savior was dismantled.

Jurojin

Mon, 06-13-2005, 12:11 PM

Shinn != Kira (GS before GSD)

I don't compare the two. They're too disimilar and one is not better than the other. Kira needs to stay out of the way so he stops making things worse than they are, unless he actually has a damn plan, Shinn needs massive amounts of prozac. If I had to pick, Shinn > Kira, but only because I feel Kira has been on a high horse all this series so far. Shinn is just misguided.

Digitalgirl

Mon, 06-13-2005, 12:41 PM

Jurojin

Mon, 06-13-2005, 02:06 PM

Well, he understandably has a lot of pain/angst/hatred in his system. But the problem is, w/o parents or some sort of role model in that respect, he doesn't have a positive outlet for it- put someone like that in a mobile suit that can vaporize cities, and he's then allowed to release that rage on those that may or may not deserve it. To top that, he isn't being disciplined like he should be, which just promotes his sense of self-right when he does whatever he wants.

I like Shinn, but that doesn't mean I don't think he's a pompous ass i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

antoine

Mon, 06-13-2005, 03:42 PM

How is Kira making things worse than they are?
Besides if he didn't interfere, the show would have been over in episode 23.

TeknoXI

Mon, 06-13-2005, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by: Jurojin
Shinn != Kira (GS before GSD)

I don't compare the two. They're too disimilar and one is not better than the other. Kira needs to stay out of the way so he stops making things worse than they are, unless he actually has a damn plan, Shinn needs massive amounts of prozac. If I had to pick, Shinn > Kira, but only because I feel Kira has been on a high horse all this series so far. Shinn is just misguided.
I don't really think Kira is on a high horse at all. He does what he believes is right. He was probably not planning to get involved whatsoever in the whole conflict if it had not been for the assassination attempt on Lacus. Another thing, Lacus pretty much thinks the same way as Kira. Lacus is a godess imo. Lovely voice and pure of heart intentions. Even with these characteristics, she is not just using pretty words. She backs it up. She commanded the ship Eternal and is currently amassing a military force. She even has or own freaking faction.

So yeah....

-------------------------------

The conclusion thus far from those who voted in the poll is that the majority of the people who posted think Kira > Shinn and have watched GS prior to GSD. There has been 1 person who watched GSD prior to GS and this person thought Shinn > Kira and therefore gives some truth to my hypothesis. However, this is not enough evidence to create a more solid relationship between the order of the series. There is also an unknown factor to the few people who think Shinn > Kira when they watched the GS prior to GSD.

My guess is that the people who watched GSD prior to GS are new to the forums and don't frequent it much therefore will make it hard to get accurate results. Someone could also rally them from IRC to come and post their opinions.

Thanks to those who participated and please continue your discussion.

Roko

Mon, 06-13-2005, 07:13 PM

Kira>Shinn. Watched GSD before GS (hell...didnt even realize there was a GS until like ep 7 of GSD). I say this on the basis that Kira is good enough to accurately shoot whatever part he wants off an enemy without going into seed mode. And like Shinn and Rey said, Kira has mastered shooting and his use of thrusters to the full potential, thus giving amazing mobility. They even admitted that it would be hard to defeat Kira. Proof enough for me that Kira is the better pilot, since even Shinn admitted it, however indirect that might have been to some people.

darkshadow

Mon, 06-13-2005, 08:50 PM

this is not about who's is the better pilot, but who gets prefered best, gonna bring up naruto, even though jiraiya would smoke kakashi, i still prefer kakashi, i know that kira is the better pilot, but i just like shinn more than kira, kira just seems like a terminator on a mission to protect cagalli, but then cagalli tells him not to kill, or whatever, just the way he fights lacks emotion, emotionless fighting is cool, but only if your some kind of bad guy or anti hero, shinn however shows alot of emotion when fighting some1, and kira seemed ultra overpowered, the way he was portrayed was just like, ok everybody, if freedom gets here SCATTER!!!, like he was some supreme godlike alien from another dimension, im glad shinn ended his godlike spree in ep34, actually made me like kira alot more than i used to

Roko

Mon, 06-13-2005, 10:27 PM

well, if this isn't about who's the better pilot, I still prefer Kira. His crying is at least better than Shinn's cocky attitude and bitching and all.

Curium

Mon, 06-13-2005, 10:58 PM

It is too bad that Shinn didn't listen to what Athrun said at the end of episode 17. At the beginning of the series Shinn annoyed me, but I just passed it off as him being his own character. Lately though is when I've really hated him. I just can't stand the way he has been acting or the way he has been talking to people.

Another similar (though not intended as being part of the above paragraph) note, what exactly would Shinn have done if he had managed to stop Stellar in Destroy. I know he isn't smart enough to realize this, but there would have been 3 options under the best case scenario for him.

1. Take her back with him to the Minerva, where she would become a POW again and be turned over to PLANT scientists to study.

2. Try returning her to the EAF again and hope they keep their promise this time.

3. Take her and go AWOL. With this not only would he be on the run as a deserter, but they wouldn't have whatever drug it is that Stellar needs to stay alive (this also applies to #1).

I cannot think of any other option (besides the one that happened, killing her which obviously he doesn't like that).

Dannynonsense

Mon, 06-13-2005, 11:15 PM

those are well thought out scenario's its to bad nobody actually thinks about what would of happen if a certain event happend ( Shinn-Lovers) so basicaly it was just her time to die shinn should just suck it up

LokeXero

Tue, 06-14-2005, 02:11 AM

Originally posted by: Dannynonsense
those are well thought out scenario's its to bad nobody actually thinks about what would of happen if a certain event happend ( Shinn-Lovers) so basicaly it was just her time to die shinn should just suck it up

Maybe he should but he still beat wussy boy due to superior tactics and strategy.

Steveness

Tue, 06-14-2005, 02:52 AM

Kira > Shinn; Watched GS prior to GSD

superior tactics and strategy? LOLOLOLOL your kidding right? ( Rey: Shinn, remember you are invincible, u will never die because he will never attack you directly. So whenever your missing a leg or head, just call for another one u got like 40 to spare anyways. JUST KEEP THROWING STUFF AT HIM, eventually he will fall. ) OKAYY~~~

Yeah i did think Kira was a little crybaby at the beginning of GS, and i mostly only like him because of his gundam. But if u do look at the situation at different point of views ( as it is shown in the anime ) u will understand how he feels. BUT SHINN? OMGZZ wth is he doing? getting n3kk1d with a girl he just met a few minutes ago, saying "i'll protect u, so hug meee <3" . AND after all thats happened with her killing 10,000 innocent people and killing his crew members, he doesnt care? Episode 34 really really.. just made me wanna hate shinn lol. at first i thought he was an aight character. BUT NOW FREEDOMS GONE i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif god.. thx shinn.......asshole. i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

DeathscytheVII

Tue, 06-14-2005, 03:13 AM

superior tactics and strategy? LOLOLOLOL your kidding right? ( Rey: Shinn, remember you are invincible, u will never die because he will never attack you directly. So whenever your missing a leg or head, just call for another one u got like 40 to spare anyways. JUST KEEP THROWING STUFF AT HIM, eventually he will fall. ) OKAYY~~~

Yes, i believe that is called a strategy i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif, his utilization of impuse at least justified some of the screentime wasted in showing impulse transform haha.

For me, Kira = Shinn

The main reason i like kira is because i just love how Freedom owns everything haha, his character and crybabyness i can tolerate. Shinn i like beause he wasn't anything close to what i expected him to be when they first announced SEEd. i was expecting a carbon clone of kira or athrun but instead, we get a totally different character all together.

My one beef against shinn is his attitude, but that will change soon hopefully.

Digitalgirl

Tue, 06-14-2005, 05:17 AM

Originally posted by: DeathscytheVII

superior tactics and strategy? LOLOLOLOL your kidding right? ( Rey: Shinn, remember you are invincible, u will never die because he will never attack you directly. So whenever your missing a leg or head, just call for another one u got like 40 to spare anyways. JUST KEEP THROWING STUFF AT HIM, eventually he will fall. ) OKAYY~~~

Yes, i believe that is called a strategy , his utilization of impuse at least justified some of the screentime wasted in showing impulse transform haha.

For me, Kira = Shinn

The main reason i like kira is because i just love how Freedom owns everything haha, his character and crybabyness i can tolerate. Shinn i like beause he wasn't anything close to what i expected him to be when they first announced SEEd. i was expecting a carbon clone of kira or athrun but instead, we get a totally different character all together.

My one beef against shinn is his attitude, but that will change soon hopefully.

changer to what? Either he'll realize what he's doing is wrong and become a carbon clone Kira, or he'll destroy all the enemies, which will inflate his ego, and that seems to have no limit.

PSJ

Tue, 06-14-2005, 06:00 AM

Shinn can calm down but still have some ego, he wouldnt become a carbon clone of kira since they are totally diffrent.

as for kira being a crybaby he isnt in GSD while he was in the begining of SEED he has matured now. calling him a crybaby now is just unfair.

to comment on shinns battle strategy, it was a good strategy and he used his suit to its full potential but that doesnt make him a better pilot.

DDBen

Tue, 06-14-2005, 10:44 AM

Originally posted by: Curium
It is too bad that Shinn didn't listen to what Athrun said at the end of episode 17. At the beginning of the series Shinn annoyed me, but I just passed it off as him being his own character. Lately though is when I've really hated him. I just can't stand the way he has been acting or the way he has been talking to people.

Another similar (though not intended as being part of the above paragraph) note, what exactly would Shinn have done if he had managed to stop Stellar in Destroy. I know he isn't smart enough to realize this, but there would have been 3 options under the best case scenario for him.

1. Take her back with him to the Minerva, where she would become a POW again and be turned over to PLANT scientists to study.

2. Try returning her to the EAF again and hope they keep their promise this time.

3. Take her and go AWOL. With this not only would he be on the run as a deserter, but they wouldn't have whatever drug it is that Stellar needs to stay alive (this also applies to #1).

I cannot think of any other option (besides the one that happened, killing her which obviously he doesn't like that).

options 4 and 5...

4. Approach Neo stating he wants to protect stellar and ask him for the means to keep her alive and offer him in return either. A) The Impulse or B) to take her and go AWOL. Being Neo cared about Stellar this would really be a win/win for him by leaving the Minerva completely defenceless and getting rid of a enemy Ace.

5: Being that Neo had the only operational EA Mobile suit Shinn could have performed a Raid on Neo's Ship and attempted to take the means needed to keep her alive. This would also require him to go Awol in the long run but he would certainly get away with attacking the ship as it was benificial to Zaft and also gains them the data they would need to keep a extended alive. He could also possibly in this case kidnap Sting and offer him to be disected in order to spare Stellar as this would provide Zaft with the needed data and a living extended to test even after disecting one.

masamuneehs

Tue, 06-14-2005, 12:50 PM

Well I have already gone on a tirade about why I think Kira is a POS in GSD.... To sum it up, I'm in almost total disagreement with DDBen and about 60-80% in agreement with Terra.... Kira was better in GS because his character progressed over the course of the show, he was very human and despite being naturally kind reacted normally (Tooru sp!, ep. 50, the incident w/ Sai in the desert, his thing with Flay) and now he is a self righteous one-man army who jumps into battle and....

oh don't get me started.

Shinn > Kira watched GS before GSD

I have hopes that Shinn becomes a bad guy by the end of GSD, kills Kira, and then somehow manages to lose to Athrun. Him and Rey are pretty serious soldiers and don't doubt the ZAFT cause much at all.... His lack of respect for authority figures is marvelous!

Mashux7

Wed, 06-15-2005, 07:35 AM

Kira > Shinn; Watched GS prior to GSD

Shinji Ikari

Wed, 06-15-2005, 08:34 AM

It is quite simple to me...

1. Kira is da man.
2. Shinn is da biatch.

JerV

Wed, 06-15-2005, 04:10 PM

Sinn > Kira GS before GSD
Ive liked Shinn from the start and I think Shinn is just as good a pilot as Kira is now, Kira had the better Gundam but Shinn overcame that with better tactics

LONG LIVE SHINN!!!

PSJ

Wed, 06-15-2005, 05:21 PM

shinn isnt as good a pilot as kira. shinns objective was to take down freedom, kiras was to hold back ZAFT forces so that the AA could escape. kira didnt focus 100% on the battle, shinn did. he barely had the time to talk to meyrin. he was so focused on his task.

MeroTZ

Wed, 06-15-2005, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by: JerV
Sinn > Kira GS before GSD
Ive liked Shinn from the start and I think Shinn is just as good a pilot as Kira is now, Kira had the better Gundam but Shinn overcame that with better tactics

LONG LIVE SHINN!!!

Shinn also did lots of research, because he knew Kira's Gundam was better and had access to tons of resources dealing with Freedom's abilities.

Not only did Kira not have any access to files about Impulse (what with it being top secret), until this fight there was no reason for him to believe it was anything but an upgraded Strike.

Had Shinn failed here, he never would have had another chance, because Kira would have known more than enough to defeat him in the future. (Note: Kira had no trouble maiming Impulse once, he jsut didn't expect it to be a threat afterwards. Shinn had Kira completely on the defensive. Kira has NEVER been able to win on the defensive.)

That said, while I like Kira as a (fake) person, and think that Shinn is an ass, I think both characters are equally well written, and both have very specific (and different) roles.

qilinkiddo

Wed, 06-15-2005, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by: JerV
Sinn > Kira GS before GSD
Ive liked Shinn from the start and I think Shinn is just as good a pilot as Kira is now, Kira had the better Gundam but Shinn overcame that with better tactics

LONG LIVE SHINN!!!

actually i agree with you that kira had a better gundam compare to what shinn had...
but impulse was sort of design to take down freedom and kira style of fighting
as you can see...kira always aim for their weapons...hands...leg...main camera...
which causes kira opponent unable to fight...sort of disable their gundam...

however impulse's design was such to counter kira style...
impulse could change whatever parts shinn needed after getting disable

thus i could say that impulse>freedom+no kill policy
but impulse<freedom+without no kill policy

Dannynonsense

Wed, 06-15-2005, 06:11 PM

i completely agree with what you said especially because when you think about it thats the only reason why he won the fight was pretty much over the first time kira hit him with the beam sabre. i like to look past the whole kira vs shinn thing and look at it as kira vs duillandal its clear he using shinn as his pawn giving him the right equipment to take down freedom and now that freedom is out of the way give the guy destiny since he does need to regenerate parts because he got rid of freedom. the point is now one knows how much thought, effort, and planing duillandal has put into his plan

Pwas

Wed, 06-15-2005, 07:01 PM

Hmms, i was rewatching the episodes and do you most of the time when u see Duillandal hes got his chess board near him, im assuming hes planning out all his tactics by the way his chess game goes and all of his ZAFT forces are his chess pieces.

Im also aware of Kira's no kill policy but if you havent noticed Freedom still over powers impulse with all his weapons and the fact kira is the ultimate coordinator. Shinn was able to dodge the first few shots of Kiras without going into Seed mode and when he went up for his atks he goes into Seed Mode. So from this we can see Shinn is improving and he can most likely dodge Kira's atk once kira gets strike freedom with Kira in the Kill Policy cause hes probley soo pissed he got pwned by Shinn. And you must remember Shinn's emotions are what makes him the formidible fighter he is, remember Kira in GS when he was in the same emotional breakdown thingy; its the same as Shinns right now because when they are fighting for their purpose they are also using their emotions to control them and by doing that they can exceed levels way beyond normal. I still believe in the end Shinn will learn how to control his emotions just like Kira does and join AA, but thats my assumtion we'll have to keep watching to know.

masamuneehs

Wed, 06-15-2005, 07:26 PM

UGH... I should have known this topic would have spoilers for Ep 34 .... No I havent watched it yet!

Isn't there a policy here about labeling SPOILERS as such and all that?

Kuso Kuso Kuso!

::runs off to watch an episode 34 that is like a flank steak left in the Arizona sun for a day::

qilinkiddo

Thu, 06-16-2005, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by: Pwas
Hmms, i was rewatching the episodes and do you most of the time when u see Duillandal hes got his chess board near him, im assuming hes planning out all his tactics by the way his chess game goes and all of his ZAFT forces are his chess pieces.

Im also aware of Kira's no kill policy but if you havent noticed Freedom still over powers impulse with all his weapons and the fact kira is the ultimate coordinator. Shinn was able to dodge the first few shots of Kiras without going into Seed mode and when he went up for his atks he goes into Seed Mode. So from this we can see Shinn is improving and he can most likely dodge Kira's atk once kira gets strike freedom with Kira in the Kill Policy cause hes probley soo pissed he got pwned by Shinn. And you must remember Shinn's emotions are what makes him the formidible fighter he is, remember Kira in GS when he was in the same emotional breakdown thingy; its the same as Shinns right now because when they are fighting for their purpose they are also using their emotions to control them and by doing that they can exceed levels way beyond normal. I still believe in the end Shinn will learn how to control his emotions just like Kira does and join AA, but thats my assumtion we'll have to keep watching to know.

shinn actually did know exactly where kira would be shooting...
rey told him that freedom aimming never hit the cockpit except for hand blah blah blah
thus shinn already have the main idea where kira would be shooting...
giving him the advantage to dodge easily by the shots of kira...

i dont really consider a pawnage considering impulse was quite badly damaged
unless impulse won with slightly or no damage that would be ownage...

i dont think kira would be rather pissed by his ''pawnage''
and would not underestimate shinn and expecting to disable him or kill him with one shot

but shinn was improving obviously and using impulse segmented parts to his fullest potential in impulse...

Digitalgirl

Thu, 06-16-2005, 01:06 AM

Originally posted by: masamuneehs
UGH... I should have known this topic would have spoilers for Ep 34 .... No I havent watched it yet!

Isn't there a policy here about labeling SPOILERS as such and all that?

Kuso Kuso Kuso!

::runs off to watch an episode 34 that is like a flank steak left in the Arizona sun for a day::

maybe you shouldn't read the things people write on the forums until you see the ep.

Aramis

Thu, 06-16-2005, 02:24 AM

Originally posted by: JerV
Sinn > Kira GS before GSD
Ive liked Shinn from the start and I think Shinn is just as good a pilot as Kira is now, Kira had the better Gundam but Shinn overcame that with better tactics
LONG LIVE SHINN!!!

agreed!

Originally posted by: MeroTZ
Shinn also did lots of research, because he knew Kira's Gundam was better and had access to tons of resources dealing with Freedom's abilities.
Not only did Kira not have any access to files about Impulse (what with it being top secret), until this fight there was no reason for him to believe it was anything but an upgraded Strike.

bah! Kira's power has went in the head for him. whenever he was in the ship he would just chill around thinking he won't have a problem with whatever battle might come around.
Shinn's data on freedom was from the Minerva's battle records. Archangel must have had plenty of data about the impulse, too, but no one bothered with it because they thought ZAFT doesn't have the balls to attack them.
harhar...owned!

Shinn>Kira, watched GS after few first episodes of GSD.

Shinji Ikari

Thu, 06-16-2005, 03:13 AM

They did't think Minerva of ZAFT would attack ecause AA didn't pose a threat towards them and because they have saved Minerva 2-3 times...

Kira doesn't want to fight more than he have to, looking at battle data would go against his own beliefs.

qilinkiddo

Thu, 06-16-2005, 03:31 AM

AA expect that they would be involve getting attack by ZAFT or EAF
but they didn't expect to be that sudden...
AA and kira didn't know that impulse was segmented...
but only know the impulse after combine...
anyway when AA was there...impulse never actually did anything beside hitting the cockpit of destroy...
the only things impulse did was to dodge freedom
what could they research and see from there...impulse could dodge freedom thats all...

PSJ

Thu, 06-16-2005, 06:03 AM

the AA identified impulse as 4 diffrent heat sources in the destroy battle so they knew that it was a suit of 4 parts.

still kira didn't fight to win, he fought for the AA to escape. shinns top priority was to completly destroy freedom, kiras priority was to defend the AA and cagalli. while shinn hade superior tactics and battle planning he is in no way a better pilot than kira. he knew that kira fires probably 75% of his shots at the beam rifle and head so he protected those points the most. shinn slipped in the battle and got his head and arm cut off, if it would have been any other suit he would have lost but he won since impulse got spare parts flying around everywhere and that isnt shinns great piloting, that is the design of impulse. while shinn has improved alot since the start of the series he is not as strong as kira yet.

LokeXero

Thu, 06-16-2005, 06:22 AM

Originally posted by: Shinji Ikari
They did't think Minerva of ZAFT would attack ecause AA didn't pose a threat towards them and because they have saved Minerva 2-3 times...

Kira doesn't want to fight more than he have to, looking at battle data would go against his own beliefs.

No they interferred in 2-3 battles that minerva was a participant in and just for the record didnt the AA/Kira clyne faction cause serious damage to minervas weaponry...

Shinji Ikari

Thu, 06-16-2005, 06:22 AM

And he never will be as strong as Kira

All hail Kira!!

Originally posted by: LokeXero

Originally posted by: Shinji Ikari
They did't think Minerva of ZAFT would attack ecause AA didn't pose a threat towards them and because they have saved Minerva 2-3 times...

Kira doesn't want to fight more than he have to, looking at battle data would go against his own beliefs.

No they interferred in 2-3 battles that minerva was a participant in and just for the record didnt the AA/Kira clyne faction cause serious damage to minervas weaponry...

Yes, and for those who has looked carefully, At one time Minerva got attacked by 4 MS and oth Luna and Rey got damaged and Shinn was an idiot who didn't at all even think of protecting Minerva, so AA fired close to Minerva to save it... Another time Minerva was surrounded and totally outnumbered, and had not AA been there, then Minerva could have kissed the holy grail and gone to heaven.

telemari

Thu, 06-16-2005, 06:39 AM

also, kir aonce destroyed gun of murasame that may have destroyed minerva bridge.

qilinkiddo

Thu, 06-16-2005, 07:03 AM

opps my bad abt that...just remember it but i dont think kira do know about impulse tho...mayb for AA

Shinji Ikari

Thu, 06-16-2005, 08:17 AM

Kira did look a bit surprised when he saw how Impulse split in two when he tried to take a swing at it.

saga

Thu, 06-16-2005, 08:28 AM

Kira>Shinn all the way baby cause Kira as a character as evolved alot more then shinn as so for Shinn all he does his gettin cocky n big headed. Pilot skills kira as alot more then Shinn juz watch the series n u can see it unless ur blind. my hope is that all the shit Shinn gave athrun will be delivered by athrun first SEED mode in da series with a serious asskicking, watched GS before GSD

cybercoin

Thu, 06-16-2005, 12:25 PM

Say whatever you want. Kira still lost from Shinn.

DDBen

Thu, 06-16-2005, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by: cybercoin
Say whatever you want. Kira still lost from Shinn.

Kira completed his objectives and Shinn failed his. So who won and who lost isn't as easy to say as you may think. Given Shinn likely did remove Kira from future fights.

Terracosmo

Thu, 06-16-2005, 12:36 PM

Didn't complete his objectives eh?
Oh really now, in the GSD I'm watching... Shinn's objectives was to shoot down Kira.

Curium

Thu, 06-16-2005, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
Didn't complete his objectives eh?
Oh really now, in the GSD I'm watching... Shinn's objectives was to shoot down Kira.

Too be more accurate, Shinn's objective was to KILL Kira (you have to admit that Shinn isn't the kind of person that would "moderate" his revenge for Stellar's death), not just shoot him down. Also I would say that Kira didn't complete his objective in a method he would have liked. Personally I would call it a draw in Shinn's favor at this point.

DDBen

Thu, 06-16-2005, 12:46 PM

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
Didn't complete his objectives eh?
Oh really now, in the GSD I'm watching... Shinn's objectives was to shoot down Kira.

Zafts objectives were to Destroy the AA and Freedom as well as Kira and anyone else who were aboard either one.

If Kira lives and the AA is not destroyed then that means Shinn Failed.

Shinn's personal objective of get revenge on Kira has yet to be resolved until we know for sure what happened to freedom. However, unless Shinn is satisfied with damaging Kira's suit this objective remains failed.

Motteh

Thu, 06-16-2005, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by: DDBen
Zafts objectives were to Destroy the AA and Freedom as well as Kira and anyone else who were aboard either one.

If Kira lives and the AA is not destroyed then that means Shinn Failed.
not necessarily, Freedom was pretty much scrap metal after Shinn ran that sword through it
since it couldn't pose much of a threat anymore

DDBen

Thu, 06-16-2005, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by: Motteh

Originally posted by: DDBen
Zafts objectives were to Destroy the AA and Freedom as well as Kira and anyone else who were aboard either one.

If Kira lives and the AA is not destroyed then that means Shinn Failed.
not necessarily, Freedom was pretty much scrap metal after Shinn ran that sword through it
since it couldn't pose much of a threat anymore

This depends largely on how much damage the sword did. I for one believe that it was directed to a nonvital area with the shield and as such its unlikely freedom took as much damage as Shinn thinks. Given I also doubt we will see Kira use Freedom again in GSD and instead it will be much like Athrun waiting for a suit that works for a bit.

Motteh

Thu, 06-16-2005, 01:10 PM

true
the sword alone might not have done much damage
but given the beating he received previous to it
i'd figure it wouldn't be easy repairing/restoring Freedom
and i seriously doubt that the Archangel would have enough supplies as to build half a mobile suit

DDBen

Thu, 06-16-2005, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by: Motteh
true
the sword alone might not have done much damage
but given the beating he received previous to it
i'd figure it wouldn't be easy repairing/restoring Freedom
and i seriously doubt that the Archangel would have enough supplies as to build half a mobile suit

This is correct but AA plans to head underwater straight for Orb so I would imagine that if they really wanted to they could repare Freedom at Orb given there resources and the fact thats where it was repaired after the final battle in Seed.

Motteh

Thu, 06-16-2005, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by: DDBen
This is correct but AA plans to head underwater straight for Orb so I would imagine that if they really wanted to they could repare Freedom at Orb given there resources and the fact thats where it was repaired after the final battle in Seed.
their intention could indeed be to repair Freedom at Orb
but i must say the latter of your statement might just be an assumption
since all i've seen is a completely repaired Freedom in a hangar in Orb
it could be repaired in space right after the battle but before they headed back to earth
but that in itself is nothing more then an assumption
and i must admit a far less likely assumption then yours

Aramis

Thu, 06-16-2005, 02:00 PM

Bah, Kira might look all that cool on the outside but he's just a power crazed little guy. His thought process during the latest battle could as well have been something like this:

Ok here we go again, some n00bs tryina take down me ship, hah not in a thousand years!
Aha there's their daggers coming in as obnoxiously as ever...better go mow them down effortlessly like always..
*zap-slice-boom-ka-zhonk*
Heh, easy as ever...Notice how i'm just impairing their suits instead of totally annihilating them...A really great pilot like me should have morals like that. Now where'd they all go? Huh? No more? Oh, they resorted to bombarding now. Damn what are they doing in the AA getting hit like that? Ah fuck there's missiles now. Shooting down missiles is so fucking stupid. Can't they get a turret or something to do this? Oh well *zzzapp* that takes care of it.
Alright now we're almost safe...wait what the hell? Minerva coming at us? Ungrateful fucking bastards. I even saved them like twice with my uber leet marksmanship. That Athrun whore is probably in there too. Whatever, you're with me or against me, bring it on...
Oh it's only that strike ripoff thing this time. I'm not supposed to kill and stuff but this guy is simply beyond redemption. Die! *slice* WTF? didn't work? aargh it split in pieces! Noo they're kamikzeing on me and shooting point blank with CIWS! Omg now they grew back! Oh fuck my suit is totally ruined! Damnit pull together now...someone as elite as I should not fear---OHGOD IT HAS HUGE ASS FRIGGIN' SWORDS NOW AND COMING RIGHT AT ME! NOOO *booooom*

yeah thats right. he wasn't worried about the archangel or anything, just trembling with fear of losing and dying!
ok, probably it wasn't intended like that, but i'm bored and don't like kira much.

Motteh

Thu, 06-16-2005, 02:03 PM

i actually found your post refreshing to read Aramis
it's much lighter in content than all the other posts

qilinkiddo

Thu, 06-16-2005, 02:20 PM

i bet you never understand everything do u zzz
aramis your post kinda.............................WHAT THE FUCKING SHIT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY...
from your post i could see that your a retarded fucking kid that did not even manage to see the obvious...pathetic

Motteh

Thu, 06-16-2005, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by: qilinkiddo
i bet you never understand everything do u zzz
aramis your post kinda.............................WHAT THE FUCKING SHIT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY...
from your post i could see that your a retarded fucking kid that did not even manage to see the obvious...pathetic
if you get a kick out of flaming someone and do not understand either irony nor sarcasm please go to a forum where they consider flaming to be funi/expressions/rolleye.gif

DDBen

Thu, 06-16-2005, 02:34 PM

Aramis I might not agree with that but none the less it was funny.

PSJ

Thu, 06-16-2005, 03:01 PM

Aramis, that was some funny shit you pulled there. Keep those coming man it lightens up the whole thread.

Vegita

Thu, 06-16-2005, 03:25 PM

I like Shinn and I'll tell you why. Aren't you guys tired of these goody two shoes heroes?

Like in DBZ I couldn't stand goku.. he was too good. Vegita was far more interesting as he wasn't good but he wasn't bad either.

IMO the anti-hero is much more interesting. Flawed characters are much more interesting cause they're more like real people.

And let me say if you don't already know... Shinn is a flawed character... and he's meant to be like that. For example, his conviction against ORB to me is a lot more interesting than Kira's "Don't you see? Cagalli is crying! Time for me to go berzerk." That's just lame.

PSJ

Thu, 06-16-2005, 03:59 PM

I like Kira because he developed from a crybaby to this silent stonecold annihalator. And going berzerk isn't really what he is doing, he is calmer than ever and i like calmness. I can't stand those screamy overly confident fag boys that run around everywhere, trust me i have encountered a bunch of them in real life and they suck. Cockyness is the worst attitude someone can have and Shinn is cocky.

The comparasion with the DBZ characters doesn't really work as they are one dimensional. For example Goku is either really happy or really mad and when he is mad he screams and the ngoes back to happy.

Deblas

Thu, 06-16-2005, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by: Vegita
I like Shinn and I'll tell you why. Aren't you guys tired of these goody two shoes heroes?

Like in DBZ I couldn't stand goku.. he was too good. Vegita was far more interesting as he wasn't good but he wasn't bad either.

IMO the anti-hero is much more interesting. Flawed characters are much more interesting cause they're more like real people.

WHY the hell do people compare everything with DBZ!! Knock it off!! Its like, every anime was made based on DBZ. Everyones like this:
"Hey! Lacus has pink hair"
"OMFG!! Just like Bulma in DBZ. They both have weird hair colors!!!!"
"O_o Dat is sooo cool"

Originally posted by: Vegita

And let me say if you don't already know... Shinn is a flawed character... and he's meant to be like that. For example, his conviction against ORB to me is a lot more interesting than Kira's "Don't you see? Cagalli is crying! Time for me to go berzerk." That's just lame.

Wouldn't you want to protect your sister when she's in pain?

Digitalgirl

Thu, 06-16-2005, 04:36 PM

We don't need to watch cocky, "real-life" characters on anime shows. We have enough real-life people with the same annoying attitudes outside of t.v. [like PSJ said]

[Shinn Fan: wow, Shinn's annoying as hell, but he's so realistic!
Shinn type person: You F****** f*g, I'll kill you and get my revenge!
meh...I'm obviously a Kira lover, Shinn hater, but Aramis' post was hilarious]

Shinji Ikari

Thu, 06-16-2005, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by: Aramis
Bah, Kira might look all that cool on the outside but he's just a power crazed little guy. His thought process during the latest battle could as well have been something like this:

Ok here we go again, some n00bs tryina take down me ship, hah not in a thousand years!
Aha there's their daggers coming in as obnoxiously as ever...better go mow them down effortlessly like always..
*zap-slice-boom-ka-zhonk*
Heh, easy as ever...Notice how i'm just impairing their suits instead of totally annihilating them...A really great pilot like me should have morals like that. Now where'd they all go? Huh? No more? Oh, they resorted to bombarding now. Damn what are they doing in the AA getting hit like that? Ah fuck there's missiles now. Shooting down missiles is so fucking stupid. Can't they get a turret or something to do this? Oh well *zzzapp* that takes care of it.
Alright now we're almost safe...wait what the hell? Minerva coming at us? Ungrateful fucking bastards. I even saved them like twice with my uber leet marksmanship. That Athrun whore is probably in there too. Whatever, you're with me or against me, bring it on...
Oh it's only that strike ripoff thing this time. I'm not supposed to kill and stuff but this guy is simply beyond redemption. Die! *slice* WTF? didn't work? aargh it split in pieces! Noo they're kamikzeing on me and shooting point blank with CIWS! Omg now they grew back! Oh fuck my suit is totally ruined! Damnit pull together now...someone as elite as I should not fear---OHGOD IT HAS HUGE ASS FRIGGIN' SWORDS NOW AND COMING RIGHT AT ME! NOOO *booooom*

yeah thats right. he wasn't worried about the archangel or anything, just trembling with fear of losing and dying!
ok, probably it wasn't intended like that, but i'm bored and don't like kira much.

I gotta hand it to you, with jokes like that, you could become one hell of a comedian someday...

Have you seen Gundam Seed, for if you have, then you know that Kira isn't the kind of person who thinks he is better than anyone else.

Digitalgirl

Thu, 06-16-2005, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by: Shinji Ikari

Originally posted by: Aramis
Bah, Kira might look all that cool on the outside but he's just a power crazed little guy. His thought process during the latest battle could as well have been something like this:

Ok here we go again, some n00bs tryina take down me ship, hah not in a thousand years!
Aha there's their daggers coming in as obnoxiously as ever...better go mow them down effortlessly like always..
*zap-slice-boom-ka-zhonk*
Heh, easy as ever...Notice how i'm just impairing their suits instead of totally annihilating them...A really great pilot like me should have morals like that. Now where'd they all go? Huh? No more? Oh, they resorted to bombarding now. Damn what are they doing in the AA getting hit like that? Ah fuck there's missiles now. Shooting down missiles is so fucking stupid. Can't they get a turret or something to do this? Oh well *zzzapp* that takes care of it.
Alright now we're almost safe...wait what the hell? Minerva coming at us? Ungrateful fucking bastards. I even saved them like twice with my uber leet marksmanship. That Athrun whore is probably in there too. Whatever, you're with me or against me, bring it on...
Oh it's only that strike ripoff thing this time. I'm not supposed to kill and stuff but this guy is simply beyond redemption. Die! *slice* WTF? didn't work? aargh it split in pieces! Noo they're kamikzeing on me and shooting point blank with CIWS! Omg now they grew back! Oh fuck my suit is totally ruined! Damnit pull together now...someone as elite as I should not fear---OHGOD IT HAS HUGE ASS FRIGGIN' SWORDS NOW AND COMING RIGHT AT ME! NOOO *booooom*

yeah thats right. he wasn't worried about the archangel or anything, just trembling with fear of losing and dying!
ok, probably it wasn't intended like that, but i'm bored and don't like kira much.

I gotta hand it to you, with jokes like that, you could become one hell of a comedian someday...

Have you seen Gundam Seed, for if you have, then you know that Kira isn't the kind of person who thinks he is better than anyone else.

*coughitsasarcasticjoke[ihope]don'ttrytoanalyzeitcough*

Vegita

Thu, 06-16-2005, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by: Vegita

And let me say if you don't already know... Shinn is a flawed character... and he's meant to be like that. For example, his conviction against ORB to me is a lot more interesting than Kira's "Don't you see? Cagalli is crying! Time for me to go berzerk." That's just lame.

Wouldn't you want to protect your sister when she's in pain?[/quote]

His sister crying or not shouldn't change the actions of this ultra-rational and pragmatic character Kira is supposed to be.

If that was the case then Cagalli is the ultimate coordinator cause she can just cry and make Kira do anything she wants.

Vegita

Thu, 06-16-2005, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by: Digitalgirl
We don't need to watch cocky, "real-life" characters on anime shows. We have enough real-life people with the same annoying attitudes outside of t.v. [like PSJ said]

[Shinn Fan: wow, Shinn's annoying as hell, but he's so realistic!
Shinn type person: You F****** f*g, I'll kill you and get my revenge!
meh...I'm obviously a Kira lover, Shinn hater, but Aramis' post was hilarious]

Oh ok so everyone should be humble and modest in anime? What a joke.

Deblas

Thu, 06-16-2005, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by: Vegita

Originally posted by: Digitalgirl
We don't need to watch cocky, "real-life" characters on anime shows. We have enough real-life people with the same annoying attitudes outside of t.v. [like PSJ said]

[Shinn Fan: wow, Shinn's annoying as hell, but he's so realistic!
Shinn type person: You F****** f*g, I'll kill you and get my revenge!
meh...I'm obviously a Kira lover, Shinn hater, but Aramis' post was hilarious]

Oh ok so everyone should be humble and modest in anime? What a joke.

Nah, We need characters like Shinn so we can hate them.

TeknoXI

Thu, 06-16-2005, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by: Deblas

Originally posted by: Vegita

Originally posted by: Digitalgirl
We don't need to watch cocky, "real-life" characters on anime shows. We have enough real-life people with the same annoying attitudes outside of t.v. [like PSJ said]

[Shinn Fan: wow, Shinn's annoying as hell, but he's so realistic!
Shinn type person: You F****** f*g, I'll kill you and get my revenge!
meh...I'm obviously a Kira lover, Shinn hater, but Aramis' post was hilarious]

Oh ok so everyone should be humble and modest in anime? What a joke.

Nah, We need characters like Shinn so we can hate them.
I agree with you in that we need characters to hate. Shinn does a great job of making me hate the shit out of him. Frey was like that in a way, but I could stand her. Any character which triggers deep emotions, whether happy, sad, or mad are good. But good characters don't have to be liked.

DDBen

Thu, 06-16-2005, 09:49 PM

Originally posted by: TeknoXI
I agree with you in that we need characters to hate. Shinn does a great job of making me hate the shit out of him. Frey was like that in a way, but I could stand her. Any character which triggers deep emotions, whether happy, sad, or mad are good. But good characters don't have to be liked.

you could tollerate Fllay better then Shinn because she had boobs. That aside I completely agree wie need characters like Shinn to really hate without a character that is so dislikeably how can anyone like another character.

ShinnIsGay

Thu, 06-16-2005, 10:00 PM

Shinn sucks.. he should just kill himself.. i mean .. he hates kira just because kira killed stellar..
Shinn rather let stellar live and kill millions of other people.. to shinn all the millions of people killed by stellar is not important. Shinn is just gay.. he sucks.. big time.. i mean so what if Shinn likes stellar.. the fact that stellar killed so many people is just enough reason for her to die.

MeroTZ

Thu, 06-16-2005, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by: DDBen

Originally posted by: TeknoXI
I agree with you in that we need characters to hate. Shinn does a great job of making me hate the shit out of him. Frey was like that in a way, but I could stand her. Any character which triggers deep emotions, whether happy, sad, or mad are good. But good characters don't have to be liked.

you could tollerate Fllay better then Shinn because she had boobs. That aside I completely agree wie need characters like Shinn to really hate without a character that is so dislikeably how can anyone like another character.

Both posters are right! And brilliant deduction on why Fllay was tolerable DDBen!

Shinn is a guy you love to hate.

Curium

Fri, 06-17-2005, 01:13 AM

Originally posted by: ShinnIsGay
Shinn sucks.. he should just kill himself.. i mean .. he hates kira just because kira killed stellar..
Shinn rather let stellar live and kill millions of other people.. to shinn all the millions of people killed by stellar is not important. Shinn is just gay.. he sucks.. big time.. i mean so what if Shinn likes stellar.. the fact that stellar killed so many people is just enough reason for her to die.

It's people like you that give the rest of us Shinn-haters a bad name.

DDBen

Fri, 06-17-2005, 02:26 AM

Originally posted by: MeroTZ

Originally posted by: DDBen

Originally posted by: TeknoXI
I agree with you in that we need characters to hate. Shinn does a great job of making me hate the shit out of him. Frey was like that in a way, but I could stand her. Any character which triggers deep emotions, whether happy, sad, or mad are good. But good characters don't have to be liked.

you could tollerate Fllay better then Shinn because she had boobs. That aside I completely agree wie need characters like Shinn to really hate without a character that is so dislikeably how can anyone like another character.

Both posters are right! And brilliant deduction on why Fllay was tolerable DDBen!

Shinn is a guy you love to hate.

Hey lets not forget Lunimaria is essantially Shinn with boobs as well she is drawn virtually identical to him and as someone did earlier by changing her hair to black and eye's to red low and behold she looked exactly like Shinn. Then they added boobs and incase you haven't noticed I would say she has atleast 10X the popularity of Shinn.

PSJ

Fri, 06-17-2005, 06:42 AM

Lunamaria is more popular because A) She is female B) She got a diffrent personality. And for the record i dont agree with you on Frey being tolerable cause she had boobs, she was tolerable because she wasn't a main character and not featured in the show that much. I still hated her guts, i actually laughed when she died.

@Curium: I would say most of the Shinn-haters does that very well themselves.

Ahirman

Fri, 06-17-2005, 08:37 AM

It's Shinn's character that makes me dislike him. His attitude towards others and his logic drive me to the point where I can't stand him at times. And like others have said, the writers most likely made him like this on purpose for us to hate him. And as he has some of the qualities of a person I really dislike, they've done a good job when it comes to me. It'll be interesting to see where the writers take it from here.

kinggalaxia

Fri, 06-17-2005, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by: DDBen

you could tollerate Fllay better then Shinn because she had boobs.[/quote]

omg, that's hilarious, Ben. single most refreshing thing I've read from you

and ShinnIsGay? grow a brain, get a life, and get a fucking original, semi-cleaver forum name.

Digitalgirl

Fri, 06-17-2005, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by: ShinnIsGay
Shinn sucks.. he should just kill himself.. i mean .. he hates kira just because kira killed stellar..
Shinn rather let stellar live and kill millions of other people.. to shinn all the millions of people killed by stellar is not important. Shinn is just gay.. he sucks.. big time.. i mean so what if Shinn likes stellar.. the fact that stellar killed so many people is just enough reason for her to die.

Kira killed a couple of people in GS, and he still had about 2 ships and a couple of mobile suits willing to protect him. [if necessary]

Curium

Fri, 06-17-2005, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by: Digitalgirl

Originally posted by: ShinnIsGay
Shinn sucks.. he should just kill himself.. i mean .. he hates kira just because kira killed stellar..
Shinn rather let stellar live and kill millions of other people.. to shinn all the millions of people killed by stellar is not important. Shinn is just gay.. he sucks.. big time.. i mean so what if Shinn likes stellar.. the fact that stellar killed so many people is just enough reason for her to die.

Kira killed a couple of people in GS, and he still had about 2 ships and a couple of mobile suits willing to protect him. [if necessary]

The only differance was Kira didn't attempt Genocide.

@PSJ, I know but I still wanted to say it. You have to admit both of our statements are true. I like your new Sig. Banner BTW.

PSJ

Fri, 06-17-2005, 05:47 PM

Yea i agree with you that the guy is annoying as hell and drags down the intelligence level of us Shinn dislikers, as i would like to call it.

Terracosmo

Sat, 06-18-2005, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by: DDBen

Originally posted by: MeroTZ

Originally posted by: DDBen

Originally posted by: TeknoXI
I agree with you in that we need characters to hate. Shinn does a great job of making me hate the shit out of him. Frey was like that in a way, but I could stand her. Any character which triggers deep emotions, whether happy, sad, or mad are good. But good characters don't have to be liked.

you could tollerate Fllay better then Shinn because she had boobs. That aside I completely agree wie need characters like Shinn to really hate without a character that is so dislikeably how can anyone like another character.

Both posters are right! And brilliant deduction on why Fllay was tolerable DDBen!

Shinn is a guy you love to hate.

Hey lets not forget Lunimaria is essantially Shinn with boobs as well she is drawn virtually identical to him and as someone did earlier by changing her hair to black and eye's to red low and behold she looked exactly like Shinn. Then they added boobs and incase you haven't noticed I would say she has atleast 10X the popularity of Shinn.

And let's not forget, that popularity ALWAYS tells us how great a character is. (slight sarcasm)
Luna & Shinn has nothing in common. If you are talking about how she is drawn, all characters in this show are drawn almost identically. You can put any two characters to the comparison board like you've done with Luna & Shinn.

DDBen

Sat, 06-18-2005, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
And let's not forget, that popularity ALWAYS tells us how great a character is. (slight sarcasm)
Luna & Shinn has nothing in common. If you are talking about how she is drawn, all characters in this show are drawn almost identically. You can put any two characters to the comparison board like you've done with Luna & Shinn.

Sure I can as Lunimaria and Shinn also have almost identical hair. Most coordinators are drawn in a similar fashion but the hairstyle is usually a defining factor of the character. In the case of Lunimaria and Shinn take away the color and they look basically 100% identicle. On a side note go watch 35 your favorite character is in it i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

DeluxSkillz

Wed, 06-22-2005, 08:29 AM

only just started watching destiny so i'm only at ep 12 of destiny, but so far i don't like Shinn at all so i guess i'm a Kira>Shinn guy and i watched GS before GSD, back to watching some more Destiny

Jurojin

Wed, 06-22-2005, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by: DDBen

Originally posted by: TeknoXI
I agree with you in that we need characters to hate. Shinn does a great job of making me hate the shit out of him. Frey was like that in a way, but I could stand her. Any character which triggers deep emotions, whether happy, sad, or mad are good. But good characters don't have to be liked.

you could tollerate Fllay better then Shinn because she had boobs. That aside I completely agree wie need characters like Shinn to really hate without a character that is so dislikeably how can anyone like another character.

Wait, so are you saying people would tolerate Shinn more if he had boobs? O.o

DDBen

Wed, 06-22-2005, 10:35 AM

Originally posted by: Jurojin
Wait, so are you saying people would tolerate Shinn more if he had boobs? O.o

Yep I am 100% saying that Shinn would be a more tollerable female character.

Jurojin

Wed, 06-22-2005, 12:51 PM

So, being evil, bitchy, obsessive, and coniving is more accepted coming from a girl than a guy..... Interesting...

Motteh

Wed, 06-22-2005, 08:41 PM

let's all collect money for Shinn's big operation then

Curium

Wed, 06-22-2005, 10:30 PM

Originally posted by: Jurojin
So, being evil, bitchy, obsessive, and coniving is more accepted coming from a girl than a guy..... Interesting...

You are slightly off here. It is more acceptible from a GOOD LOOKING girl then a guy.

FelixZeroAlastor

Thu, 06-23-2005, 01:30 AM

Originally posted by: DDBen

Originally posted by: Jurojin
Wait, so are you saying people would tolerate Shinn more if he had boobs? O.o

Yep I am 100% saying that Shinn would be a more tollerable female character.

No he wouldn't. I don't care if he turned into the hottest girl in Seed. I still would hate his personality. Why the hell are we talking about giving Shinn breasts and castrating him anyways. If I wanted to see a boy magically get breasts and look like a girl I'd watch Mahoromatic.

Shinji Ikari

Thu, 06-23-2005, 03:09 AM

There is a perfect example for this.... It's called Frey Alster i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif She must be the most hated person in SEED

Motteh

Thu, 06-23-2005, 06:28 AM

Originally posted by: Shinji Ikari
There is a perfect example for this.... It's called Frey Alster She must be the most hated person in SEED
i beg to differ
to me at least she somewhat redeemed herself in the last couple of eps
well her "transformation" started after Kira went MIA
but the last few eps were most significant, atleast that's my opinion

antoine

Thu, 06-23-2005, 08:15 AM

I agree Motteh, but I can't think of anyone who would me more hated than Flay lol.

PSJ

Thu, 06-23-2005, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by: DDBen

Originally posted by: Jurojin
Wait, so are you saying people would tolerate Shinn more if he had boobs? O.o

Yep I am 100% saying that Shinn would be a more tollerable female character.

I'm 100% sure that what you are saying is bullshit. Shinn wouldn't be more tolerable as a female. Just because you get turned on by animated characters doesn't mean the rest of us do.

A great example is Frey who was one of if not the most hated character in SEED. I disagree that she reedemed herself in the end of SEED, in my opinion she got what she deserved. She was a fucking whore.

DDBen

Thu, 06-23-2005, 09:39 AM

Originally posted by: PSJ

Originally posted by: DDBen

Originally posted by: Jurojin
Wait, so are you saying people would tolerate Shinn more if he had boobs? O.o

Yep I am 100% saying that Shinn would be a more tollerable female character.

I'm 100% sure that what you are saying is bullshit. Shinn wouldn't be more tolerable as a female. Just because you get turned on by animated characters doesn't mean the rest of us do.

A great example is Frey who was one of if not the most hated character in SEED. I disagree that she reedemed herself in the end of SEED, in my opinion she got what she deserved. She was a fucking whore.

She slept with Kira aside from that it was only fan speculation as to her being a whore. Although I don't actually disagree with this point but still its best to give her the benifit of the doubt. I think Fllay was FAR more tollerable then Shinn will ever be. The fact is even though she controlled and manipulated others in Seed mainly Kira. She still didn't go around killing people after they surrendered or blindly follow anyone. Atleast Fllay was her own person and was largely the one in control but she was still a victum and having your father blow up in front of you is a tramatic experience. Please note a large differnce is you were also watching Fllay as it happened not 3 years later. Considering it happened and she was still alive at this point as she was at the END of seed chances are you would feel completely differn't about her.

I tend to think in the end Fllay playing the manipulative but fragile female made her far more tollerable then Shinn has any chance of becomming as the vengeful psycopath.

Also do note Shinn with boobs = Lunimaria not Fllay and I believe its universally accepted that she's a much more popular character on the personal level of likeability even if it can be argued she isn't as well written.

PSJ

Thu, 06-23-2005, 10:33 AM

First off saying that Frey's behaviour was acceptable because she saw her father die and Shinn's behaviour is not accepted is hypocritical. Shinn saw his family die right in front of his eyes so if you accept Frey's behaviour you will accept Shinn's. I do not accept either persons behaviour, both let their anger and sadness out on other people but in this case Shinn is far better than Frey. Frey completly used Kira, Shinn doesn't use anyone.

Shinn with boobs is not Lunamaria as their personalities are totally diffrent. That comment was just stupid on your part, did you think it through at all before you posted it?

As for my comment about Frey being a whore, that was not entirely serious. I thought that was rather clear.

DDBen

Thu, 06-23-2005, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by: PSJ
First off saying that Frey's behaviour was acceptable because she saw her father die and Shinn's behaviour is not accepted is hypocritical. Shinn saw his family die right in front of his eyes so if you accept Frey's behaviour you will accept Shinn's. I do not accept either persons behaviour, both let their anger and sadness out on other people but in this case Shinn is far better than Frey. Frey completly used Kira, Shinn doesn't use anyone.

Shinn with boobs is not Lunamaria as their personalities are totally diffrent. That comment was just stupid on your part, did you think it through at all before you posted it?

As for my comment about Frey being a whore, that was not entirely serious. I thought that was rather clear.

No Shinn and Fllay's situations with the death of there family are completely differen't and you obviously did not read my above post. Case 1 we have Fllay who Kira promised to protect her father and he failed in doing so this lead to direct hatred towards Kira at the time and was something we saw dealt with real time.

Shinn on the other hand had this happen 3 years before hand it is not a current event and it is part of his past. He's chosen to feel sorry about himself rather then deal with it and move on. Please note that by the end of GS Fllay has dealt with her issue and moved on unlike Shinn at this point.

As for the Lunimaria/Shinn comment looking at the 2 side by side they are the same character one male and one female. I am not directly relating this to there personalities at this point in the series as we honestly don't know anything about Lunimaria aside from she has a sister. Her parents could have also died in the war there is absolutely no reference to anything about her past in all of GSD to this point. So in is essentially impossible to really relate a one dimensional side character to a main character whom we have a lot of insight into there past.

Guardian_2000

Thu, 06-23-2005, 10:57 AM

Frey's behavior is a far cry from the obnoxious, irrational, and uncalled for behavior from Shinn. Sure they saw their parents die right infront of them. But Shinn is taking his hate and anger to a level that Frey never did or could. Female characters are usually meant to be innocent and forgiven for things they have done. Also Frey actually was trying to change as she stated things were changing between her and Kira later in the series. Originally she just wanted to get back at Kira but she grew to actually care about him somewhere in the mix of all things. Shinn is also in a bunch of crazy crap. He is getting smacked around by life left and right. However instead of making his character grow out of the hate and revenge. He's getting worse. He's become more arrogant. Consumed with hate and rage. What little shot at peace with Stellar failed and hes drowning in his own life. Grasping at whatever he can to stay afloat. Hes a really interesting character since he's so out of place for what the norm is. I don't like him. But thats the point. He isn't meant to be a character that you like or get along with. Hes supposed to be hated and despised.

I don't like Shinn at all. As a person hes just an ass and deserves whats coming to him. But as a character hes really interesting right up there with Kira. Its a good choice as one of the main characters. Although its looking more like hes drifting off to the sidelines now that Kira is in. I mean hes barely in the intro anymroe. Hopefully the fourth shows him alot more.

Jurojin

Thu, 06-23-2005, 12:57 PM

I can't believe that noone has photoshopped Shinn's head on Lunamaria's body just for the sake of laughter yet- I'd do it, but I don't have the mad skillz for it ;_;

DDBen

Thu, 06-23-2005, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by: Jurojin
I can't believe that noone has photoshopped Shinn's head on Lunamaria's body just for the sake of laughter yet- I'd do it, but I don't have the mad skillz for it ;_;

someone did a picture of Lunamaria with Shinn's hair and eye color somewhere in the forum and its about the same result cut and pasting Shinns head would be.

NineTailsKitsu

Thu, 06-23-2005, 03:08 PM

Jurojin

Thu, 06-23-2005, 03:26 PM

I was making the comment in jest ^^; apologies.

DDBen

Thu, 06-23-2005, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by: Jurojin
I was making the comment in jest ^^; apologies.

I wasn't found the random pic.

Originally posted by: Kovash
I noticed something strange about that picture of Luna-Maria; so I made her hair dark and her eyes red and... MY GOD! I CREATED A MONSTER!

Luna-Auska (http://upl.silentwhisper.net/uplfolders/upload4/LunaAuska.jpg)

PSJ

Thu, 06-23-2005, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by: DDBen

Originally posted by: PSJ
First off saying that Frey's behaviour was acceptable because she saw her father die and Shinn's behaviour is not accepted is hypocritical. Shinn saw his family die right in front of his eyes so if you accept Frey's behaviour you will accept Shinn's. I do not accept either persons behaviour, both let their anger and sadness out on other people but in this case Shinn is far better than Frey. Frey completly used Kira, Shinn doesn't use anyone.

Shinn with boobs is not Lunamaria as their personalities are totally diffrent. That comment was just stupid on your part, did you think it through at all before you posted it?

As for my comment about Frey being a whore, that was not entirely serious. I thought that was rather clear.

No Shinn and Fllay's situations with the death of there family are completely differen't and you obviously did not read my above post. Case 1 we have Fllay who Kira promised to protect her father and he failed in doing so this lead to direct hatred towards Kira at the time and was something we saw dealt with real time.

Shinn on the other hand had this happen 3 years before hand it is not a current event and it is part of his past. He's chosen to feel sorry about himself rather then deal with it and move on. Please note that by the end of GS Fllay has dealt with her issue and moved on unlike Shinn at this point.

As for the Lunimaria/Shinn comment looking at the 2 side by side they are the same character one male and one female. I am not directly relating this to there personalities at this point in the series as we honestly don't know anything about Lunimaria aside from she has a sister. Her parents could have also died in the war there is absolutely no reference to anything about her past in all of GSD to this point. So in is essentially impossible to really relate a one dimensional side character to a main character whom we have a lot of insight into there past.

Shinn and Lunamaria doesn't have similar personalities. They are entirely diffrent which is why they are diffrent in popularity. It is not because Shinn is a male Lunamaria that he isn't as popular, it's because he is a jackass. Even if Lunamaria's parents died during the previous war Shinn and her still isn't the same since the have diffrent fucking personalities. What is so hard to get about this?

What is diffrent about seeing your father/family die? If you are going to take time in account then count with how they died. Shinn saw his sister's arm severed from her body and his father and mother lying in a pool of blood dead while Frey simply saw her father's ship explode. Shinn has moved on from feeling sorry for himself, he uses his anger and desire for revenge on the battlefield in the name of ZAFT. While Frey moved on i find it hard to believe that she became any better as she was a spoiled brat before her father died and after a lunatic psychopath.

Shinn didn't do anyhing directly towards people either exept being arrogant towards Asuran, Frey fucked Kira and told Sai without any guilt and made Kira and Sai fight who were good friends before the stupid whore manipulated and used Kira.

Yes, Shinn killed a couple of EA soldiers which i won't defend but in his eyes he was doing the right thing and saved the people who were oppressed by them. And he is a soldier just like they were, death is not unusual in situations like that and no one has talked shit about Neo for manipulating Stellar into destroying a bunch of cities which is much worse than anything Shinn has done. Neo just gets away with it because people think he is Mwu.

Since Kira promised to protect Frey's father it makes it okey for her to make Sai feel like shit and Manipulate Kira? Imagine how Sai felt when she dropped the bomb on him "I slept with Kira". I mean that guy didn't deserve any of that.

I think your hatred for Shinn is a bit to much in your posts. I hate Frey more than i have hated anyone as she does it towards the only people she have left close to her and hurts herself at that. Nothing Shinn does can be that hard unless he stabs Lunamaria out of spite or something.

Terracosmo

Thu, 06-23-2005, 05:58 PM

PSJ - DDBen : 1 - 0

Partly because of the fact that I agree with PSJ, but also because he actually uses facts stated in the show unlike DDBen with his funny ways of analyzing personalities.

DDBen

Thu, 06-23-2005, 06:41 PM

I said Shinn and Lunimaria look alike not that they have similar personalities all I stated is there is no way to compare them without knowing a more complete background of both. You can absolutely compare there current personalities which are absolutely nothing alike but you can't compare anything beyond that as we still know next to nothing about Lunimaria and lots about Shinn.

As far as Sai goes as far as we know he was a rich brat who had a arranged marriage with Fllay in the first place. There is no reason to believe she was ever in love with the guy in the first place as nothing at all was in the series to really show that. Sure he got hurt by her sleeping with Kira but he could have been the only one ever invested in such a engagement. While on the other hand Fllay could have only ever been marrying Sai for her father.

That aside I don't think mass murder as Shinn has commited multiple times against prisoners of war is not any more valid a way to get your revenge. Atleast Kira got something out of the deal and by the end of the series Fllay did realise her mistakes and change. GSD is not over Shinn could still have the same redemption factor but the fact he wanted a girl with the mental capacity of a 3 year old does not make anything he's done more just.

I also do not hate Shinn I think he's a complete jackass in the series and am definatly hoping he will be killed by the end, but is he certainly better written then the vast majority of GS or GSD characters mostly because he's a main character.

NineTailsKitsu

Thu, 06-23-2005, 06:46 PM

Shinn mostly wanted to protect Stellar, as Shinn is compensating for the fact that he couldn't protect his family. As for the Sai situation, how would you feel If a girl you had feelings for just up and fucked one of your best friends?

Mae

Thu, 06-23-2005, 09:17 PM

I always felt bad for Sai. He had feelings for Fllay, but she tossed aside their relationship without a second thought for her revenge. Fllay did some really awful things in Seed, but I see her character and motives as distinctly different from Shinn.

In the beginning of the show Fllay had a lot of pride in herself due to her position as a favorite daughter of a powerful politician. When she lost that she felt like she lost everything that was important about her and kind of lost her sense of self. She threw away her pride to get her revenge thinking it didn't matter anymore. Since she couldn't fight herself she cold-bloodedly decided to use a former friend as her weapon. She was more desperate and self-destructive than Shinn is since unlike him she thought she had nothing left to lose. I think if she had the skills to pilot a gundam she would have simply killed every coordinator she could get her hands on, not caring if she was killed in the process.

Shinn, on the other hand, has a very strong sense of self, to the point of arrogance. Yeah, revenge is one of his motives, but not his only motive. He doesn't want to kill every single person in Orb. He would be happy if their government fell apart, but he woudn't sacrifice himself to accomplish it. Shinn also wants power to protect others he cares for and the honor and glory he can get winning battles. He is far from giving up.

I suppose if you compared them you could say that they are both selfish characters, and that could be a disliked characteristic, but I wouldn't say that Shinn is GSD's version of Fllay, they are too different.

Blues

Thu, 06-23-2005, 09:26 PM

Shinn > Kira

Watched GSD before GS

PSJ

Fri, 06-24-2005, 07:24 AM

Originally posted by: DDBen
I said Shinn and Lunimaria look alike not that they have similar personalities all I stated is there is no way to compare them without knowing a more complete background of both. You can absolutely compare there current personalities which are absolutely nothing alike but you can't compare anything beyond that as we still know next to nothing about Lunimaria and lots about Shinn.

As far as Sai goes as far as we know he was a rich brat who had a arranged marriage with Fllay in the first place. There is no reason to believe she was ever in love with the guy in the first place as nothing at all was in the series to really show that. Sure he got hurt by her sleeping with Kira but he could have been the only one ever invested in such a engagement. While on the other hand Fllay could have only ever been marrying Sai for her father.

That aside I don't think mass murder as Shinn has commited multiple times against prisoners of war is not any more valid a way to get your revenge. Atleast Kira got something out of the deal and by the end of the series Fllay did realise her mistakes and change. GSD is not over Shinn could still have the same redemption factor but the fact he wanted a girl with the mental capacity of a 3 year old does not make anything he's done more just.

I also do not hate Shinn I think he's a complete jackass in the series and am definatly hoping he will be killed by the end, but is he certainly better written then the vast majority of GS or GSD characters mostly because he's a main character.

What you said was that Shinn with boobs is Lunamaria and that is why she is more popular, because she got boobs. Which is not the case as Shinn is disliked for his personality not because he is a male.

As for the Sai comment, Sai may have been rich but he didn't act like a rich brat and he had feelings for Frey. Even if Frey didn't have feelings for him what she did still isn't right. Why don't you go ahead and call Lacus, Asuran, Cagalli for rich brats as they obviously are loaded.

How the hell can you say that Kira got something out of the "deal"? He was fucking used and he kicked one of his best friends ass because of this deal. Do you think he looks back at it and says "Oh well at least i got laid". Fuck how do you think? I won't even begin about the marriage as that is not relevant.

Shinn kills. He is a soldier. Now the way he has killed sometimes are not valid but that was one time, he was happy cause he managed to save alot of people and did wrong but he got corrected by Asuran right after. Everybody does mistakes, even on the battlefield.

The rest of the times he has simply sunk enemy warships and the like and that is what you are supposed to do in battle. A soldier that doesn't kill has nothing to do on the battlefield, just look where it got Kira he was nearly dying at the bottom of the sea. Asuran has been on the best ship in the ZAFT army and piloting a state of the art suit and still he couldn't do shit, he just wasted resources. Asuran still is one of the best pilots in the whole fucking army but when he was afraid to fight he was weaker than Lunamaria.

Deblas

Sun, 06-26-2005, 01:45 AM

I'm a Kira fan. Watched GS prior to GSD if anyones interested in knowing.

I like Kira better because of his character development in Seed. Started as a crybaby, then manipulated killing machine then so on until he matured. What I see in Shinn is anger,angst and depression. And it hasn't changed throughout the series. Where in eps.36 and he still is the arrogant bastard who does what he likes and thinks about himself only. Not counting the time when he broke some gate where he got a bitchslap by Athrun. And now its even worse now that Stellar is dead.

Kirakun

Sun, 06-26-2005, 02:45 AM

Kira > Shinn; Watched GS prior to GSD

naruto-kira

Sun, 06-26-2005, 11:54 PM

kira>shinn

shinn is the stupidest main character i seen, he is so stupid, and arrogant, he's the one who kill stella anyways, not kira, he broke the shield..

DDBen

Mon, 06-27-2005, 12:29 AM

Originally posted by: PSJ
What you said was that Shinn with boobs is Lunamaria and that is why she is more popular, because she got boobs. Which is not the case as Shinn is disliked for his personality not because he is a male.

As for the Sai comment, Sai may have been rich but he didn't act like a rich brat and he had feelings for Frey. Even if Frey didn't have feelings for him what she did still isn't right. Why don't you go ahead and call Lacus, Asuran, Cagalli for rich brats as they obviously are loaded.

How the hell can you say that Kira got something out of the "deal"? He was fucking used and he kicked one of his best friends ass because of this deal. Do you think he looks back at it and says "Oh well at least i got laid". Fuck how do you think? I won't even begin about the marriage as that is not relevant.

Shinn kills. He is a soldier. Now the way he has killed sometimes are not valid but that was one time, he was happy cause he managed to save alot of people and did wrong but he got corrected by Asuran right after. Everybody does mistakes, even on the battlefield.

First off I never have liked Sai period. His personality and place in GS was almost pointless. Yes he got hurt but basically no more then any kid who had his favorite toy stolden. Honestly Sai did next to nothing in GS and had next to zero character developement he was about as useful as a redshirt except he never even attempted to protect anyone.

As for Kira at that point Kira was breaking down the fact that Fllay(stop calling her frey that is not her name sub or dub) manipulated him to continue fighting essentially gave him a reason to keep fighting and even as the manipulative bitch she was she atleast gave Kira some comfort to come back too. I'm not supporting all of her actions but chances are had she not taken them Kira would have broken down and everyone on the AA would have ended up dead when Kira couldn't fight any longer. I know he was fighting to protect his friends but Fllay was honestly the only one who went that extra mile to atleast act like they truely cared about him as more then a means of survival.

As far as Shinn being a soldier its ok to kill thats just BS. Being a soldier does not give you a right to murder people who are defenceless. Yes Athran yelled at Shinn but that certainly didn't sink in at all. At this point Shinn has shown no signs of remorse for ANY of his actions. No matter what he simply shrugs things off and places the blame on anyone but himself thats simply a fact.

*Please note this is posted having seen episodes 1-35 of GSD so please do not comment on it using information from any newer episodes.

naruto-kira

Mon, 06-27-2005, 12:49 AM

yea shinn is a faggot your right, although kira wasn't really smart in the begining. he did a bunch of stupid things, but what kept him going is that he gotta protect his friends
no matter what, i bet if sai got killed kira who have taken back revenge for sai too. shinn is a stupid alittle kid and blamed org and eaf for killing his parents...,in war ppl die. there are
millions or people jus like him, and in those situation it happens both sides too, ppl from eaf got there family killed by zaft too. his character is really immature and stupid, all he does
is blame other ppl when he was the fault of killing stealla too, he broke stella shield, kira will never intentionally kill anyone all he wanted to do it to take down the mobile, it was shinn
that broke up the hatch and left stella unprotected. if it was anyone who killed stella it would be himself..

Terracosmo

Mon, 06-27-2005, 12:58 AM

I liked Sai's scene when he tried to steal the Strike. Of course he was never truly a major character, but that scene was just great because it was so... human, somehow.
Jealousy turned madness. Just like in real life!

kAi

Mon, 06-27-2005, 01:02 PM

Kira > Shinn
Sinn's a bitch, I don't like him.
Shinn has his head to far up Dullindaal's ass.

Psyke

Mon, 06-27-2005, 01:21 PM

I thnk Shinn's a pretty interesting character. Easy to hate him for what he did but still interesting.

PSJ

Mon, 06-27-2005, 01:24 PM

Frey Frey Frey Frey Frey FREY FREY FREY FREY FREEEEY!!!

I'm terribly sorry about that one i just couldn't resist.

Well DDBen it's clear that you hate both Sai and Shinn in the way you write and your "facts" are built upon your hate for these characters. I on the other hand hate both -FREY-, yes i did it again and Shinn but im trying to be fair.

If Frey backed off and didn't become psycho bitch Kira could have managed on his own, sure he would have cried some but i'm sure he would suck it up and turn out the same anyway. I don't think Kira got anything good from Frey at all.

Shinn did kill defenseless enemies once. In my opinion this is not something that can bring him as low as Frey. Sure it's not good but it is a hell of alot better than hurt people that care about you and love you. I would kill a bunch of "defensless" soldiers if i was a soldier over hurting people that care about me anyday.

Now i won't call my opinions facts as they obviously aren't just like yours. There isn't a single fact in your post it's all opinion.

Terracosmo

Mon, 06-27-2005, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by: DDBen
Yes he got hurt but basically no more then any kid who had his favorite toy stolden.

It is obvious that you've never been in an relationship. i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif
I think Sai showed great strength at that time, pulling through as Archangel crew despite the fact that one of his best friends had a thing with his girlfriend. And the whole trying to steal Strike gig as I posted above.

I think it's funny how you seem to find things that justify Frey's (yes, I'm also more of a Frey guy than Fllay) actions yet you always find someway to make Shinn's actions look unforgivable. Hmm...

Also, isn't Sai's "real" name Ssigh? That's what I saw in the most recent of the subs anyway towards the end of Seed.

DDBen

Mon, 06-27-2005, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by: Terracosmo

Originally posted by: DDBen
Yes he got hurt but basically no more then any kid who had his favorite toy stolden.

It is obvious that you've never been in an relationship.
I think Sai showed great strength at that time, pulling through as Archangel crew despite the fact that one of his best friends had a thing with his girlfriend. And the whole trying to steal Strike gig as I posted above.

I think it's funny how you seem to find things that justify Frey's (yes, I'm also more of a Frey guy than Fllay) actions yet you always find someway to make Shinn's actions look unforgivable. Hmm...

Also, isn't Sai's "real" name Ssigh? That's what I saw in the most recent of the subs anyway towards the end of Seed.

Incorrect on the relationship part Terra but let me make a more relevant statement on the Fllay relationship. As far as Sai goes to me I can't recall a single thing he did in all of Seed besides slug Kira at one point over the Fllay matter. As far as the relationship he had with Fllay there is no actual way to determine weather it was a random arranged marrage decided by the parents or one where they met at school and fell in love and decided to get engaged. If it was arranged once her dad was killed, going upon the assumption her mom was dead or out of the picture, all bets were off on it. We honestly don't have enough of a family background on either character to validate any argument on the relationship they had. As far as I am concerned I believe it was a arranged political marriage considering the political importance of Fllay's father.

So to me basically Sai might have liked the ide of marrying Fllay after all she was a important figure with a prominent father, wealth and beauty. I just didn't see at any point in GS that her and Sai had a concrete relationship to begin with I don't deney what she did was wrong I simply argue the possibility that what she did wasn't nearly as bad as your portraying. I considered her a daddy's girl who would honestly do anything for her father so that is why I see it more of a arranged marriage to begin with.

As for names I hate the name Fllay its however obviously what the writers intended her name to be as it was left unchanged in the english dub. (please also note often they will change names go try and watch a episode of One Piece if you need some examples but the subs and the dub matching up is why I have resigned to calling her Fllay).
As far as Sai goes I think that its definatly correct even if Ssigh is the japanese spelling of the name as both are pronounced the same.

Jurojin

Mon, 06-27-2005, 02:17 PM

Good to see that some Yzak air-time has brought you back to your senses, Terra-

Sai... had good reasons for being upset with Kira and Fllay. I mean, he actually did care about and liked Fllay, in that way, and as far as he knew, it was reciprocated. Her flipping out like that, and Kira not looking past his own pain to see what was going on (not blaming him, just saying), are valid reasons for Sai to be hurt.

Shinn > Fllay.

Fllay was evil. Shinn has his own issues, but at least he's not manipulating and screwing up everyone else's life up for revenge. He's straightforward and open about what he does. Fllay tore up friendships, gave Kira a complex, broke Sai's heart. All Shinn has done is love a psychopath and assault Kira. And gunned down some unarmed soldiers. Shinn really is the less of two evils in this case.

romancing_xaga

Mon, 06-27-2005, 02:48 PM

Kira = Shinn (GS b4 GSD)

- Stop looking at your feet and start staring ahead on the road people... If two great force collides, 1 big boom is to be expected. The survivor would be Asuran. Muahahahahahahahhahaha

Terracosmo

Mon, 06-27-2005, 02:51 PM

@Jurojin: It was only a matter of time i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

@DDBen: Even if the marriage was arranged, Sai obviously cared about Frey. We'll never find out exactly how much, but it seems to me he cared enough for me to discard the comparison to a kid losing his toy. As for why I think Frey is a worse person than Shinn.. well, everybody else have already said what I want to say about that matter.

MeroTZ

Mon, 06-27-2005, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by: Terracosmo

@DDBen: Even if the marriage was arranged, Sai obviously cared about Frey. We'll never find out exactly how much, but it seems to me he cared enough for me to discard the comparison to a kid losing his toy. As for why I think Frey is a worse person than Shinn.. well, everybody else have already said what I want to say about that matter.

I think Sai very genuinely loved Fllay, and was excedingly upset when she started mindf***ing Kira. I think he was somewhat upset that it was obvious to him what Fllay was doing, and Kira refused to see it.

As for her being a worse person than Shinn... well, while you can lay the deaths of countless Soldiers killed by nukes in the final days of the war at her feet (I'll give this disk the bad guy gave me to my friends, surely it cant be a trap! DUR!) she hasn't actually killed anyone intentionally. And she redeemed herself. Shinn has done neither of these things, and therefore is the worse person i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

EDIT: Also, Fllay should have known that you never trust a guy in a mask. Shinn DID make that same mistake. Hmm... coincidence?

Terracosmo

Mon, 06-27-2005, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by: MeroTZ

Originally posted by: Terracosmo

@DDBen: Even if the marriage was arranged, Sai obviously cared about Frey. We'll never find out exactly how much, but it seems to me he cared enough for me to discard the comparison to a kid losing his toy. As for why I think Frey is a worse person than Shinn.. well, everybody else have already said what I want to say about that matter.

I think Sai very genuinely loved Fllay, and was excedingly upset when she started mindf***ing Kira. I think he was somewhat upset that it was obvious to him what Fllay was doing, and Kira refused to see it.

As for her being a worse person than Shinn... well, while you can lay the deaths of countless Soldiers killed by nukes in the final days of the war at her feet (I'll give this disk the bad guy gave me to my friends, surely it cant be a trap! DUR!) she hasn't actually killed anyone intentionally. And she redeemed herself. Shinn has done neither of these things, and therefore is the worse person

This can be discussed until the end of time since in the end it's all down to personal interpretation. In my opinion, mindfucking people like Frey did is a lot worse than Shinn, who in my opinion hasn't even done anything wrong. So what if the enemies were defenseless, I'd shoot them down regardless. I don't see anything he has done as wrong, though some things are necessary evils... but not in a bad way. Teehee.

DDBen

Mon, 06-27-2005, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
@Jurojin: It was only a matter of time

@DDBen: Even if the marriage was arranged, Sai obviously cared about Frey. We'll never find out exactly how much, but it seems to me he cared enough for me to discard the comparison to a kid losing his toy. As for why I think Frey is a worse person than Shinn.. well, everybody else have already said what I want to say about that matter.

I honestly didn't see Sai heavily invested in Fllay considering the things he lost by having the engagement canceled I think that could just as easily explain his actions as being in love with her. Sai definatly got hurt but I can't say I saw much genuine anything from him. He was overall a pretty minor character for someone who was in just about every episode(if not everyone).

I would have to rewatch seed to make exact statements on his actions but aside from the occasional Fllay its going to be alright moment and getting ticked at Fllay and Kira over what happened I can't think of anything significant he did for Fllay or Kira in that reguard. As I remember he basically slugged Kira and stepped aside.

Side note I think both Fllay and Shinn are horrible people I'm not entirely blaming either one as being better or worse then the other but being forced to choose I'd say that Fllay's actions are more understandable.

Terracosmo

Mon, 06-27-2005, 04:06 PM

True, but still, it's pretty hard to convey how much a minor character cares about someone given the screentime and priorities etc. Maybe if Sai actually had a bigger role we'd see more of how he really felt for Frey. I'm just going by the sudden madness he had when it was revealed that Frey was cheating on him as well as the fact that he still has a photo of him and her on his wall during the after-phase.

Things like that, I believe, are not something you do for someone you don't like a lot.

Jurojin

Mon, 06-27-2005, 04:13 PM

For those that dont want to read the past few Terra and DDBen posts and counterposts, Ill sum it up real quick:

DDBen: Shinn and Fllay were both bad people, but Fllay was the lesser of the two, and has redeemed herself

Terracosmo: Frey was more evil than Shinn.

DDBen: No, Shinn is more evil than Fllay.

Terracosmo: No, Frey.

DDBen: No, Shinn.

(etc, etc.)

Im waiting (with popcorn!) for them to pull out the baseball bats and go at it.

Terracosmo

Mon, 06-27-2005, 04:28 PM

lol thanks for the summary, unfortunately the argument seems to be over already i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

Jurojin

Mon, 06-27-2005, 04:30 PM

That was just for those who don't like going back pages and reading what they missed.

No bats/lead pipes this time?

Awwwwww ;_;

Dannynonsense

Mon, 06-27-2005, 04:46 PM

yep always wanted to read those pages but the summary was better hope the debate continues

DDBen

Mon, 06-27-2005, 08:59 PM

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
True, but still, it's pretty hard to convey how much a minor character cares about someone given the screentime and priorities etc. Maybe if Sai actually had a bigger role we'd see more of how he really felt for Frey. I'm just going by the sudden madness he had when it was revealed that Frey was cheating on him as well as the fact that he still has a photo of him and her on his wall during the after-phase.

Things like that, I believe, are not something you do for someone you don't like a lot.

I absolutely agree with everything you just said. Another thing I'm really guessing that Sai had never slept with Fllay and thats the part that really made Sai feel rejected as it likely showed a great amount of change in her character. I'm just guessing a princess like Fllay would be unlikely to put out before she was married or given a small island as I doubt daddy would approve.

LokeXero

Mon, 06-27-2005, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by: Dannynonsense
yep always wanted to read those pages but the summary was better hope the debate continues

True, Its like DDBen was a tape that would play then rewind and repeat . The only value in the argument was Terra replies, which are like something id say against DDBen anyway...

Kudos to Terra...

Terracosmo

Mon, 06-27-2005, 09:45 PM

Heh, thanks, glad to hear I'm not the only one who.. ehh.. thinks like I do i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

naruto-kira

Tue, 06-28-2005, 03:35 AM

forget about sai and kira, it wasn't kira fault at that time, because all the thing is going threw his head and fllay was there to comfort him, and it not kira fault for fllay going to kira because it wasn't like kira went for her it was fllays fault anyways, he wanted ot use kira to get revenge for his father...

naruto-kira

Tue, 06-28-2005, 03:43 AM

this topic is suppose to talk shit about shinn, because he stupid and blaming shit on ppl, on the other hand kira always try to do the right thing. both shinn and kira had love ones died before his eyes, but kira didn't want to kill all the coordinators or shit like that, he trys to do the right thing, and thats the difference between kira and shinn

shinn= revenge
therefore kira>shinn
kira= justice

jus like wut it said in batman, revenge is not justices....
justice is for peace and harmony.
revenge is for yourself, to make yourself feel better.
that is wut kira is trying to do now, fighting for peace and harmony

lol, i out spoken u all
topic is over!!!

Terracosmo

Tue, 06-28-2005, 03:50 AM

"he trys to do the right thing, and thats the difference between kira and shinn"

So you are saying that Shinn does something he sees as a "wrong" thing? What's right and wrong can be discussed to the end of time.

"that is wut kira is trying to do now, fighting for peace and harmony"

His way of peace and harmony can also be seen as selfish, it's not like Kira says "I will now save the entire world" while Shinn says "The world sucks, it's all about me".
Kira's way of interfering has caused a whole lot of unnecessary casualties so far.

Also, Kira's had a whole damn war to think about what to do and not. He might seem collected now, but he wasn't always like that.
And no, this topic is not "supposed to talk shit about Shinn".

Finally, don't double-post.

naruto-kira

Tue, 06-28-2005, 04:19 AM

what right and wrong maybe discussed in the end of time, unless your a total senseless fool....., dont tell if you kill your mom could be right. and yes...kira is fighting for peace and harmony. he maybe ignorant, but he never lost in senses, wut is love is love, and wut is hate is hate, you yourself knows best, in the begining kira fights either for eaf or zaft, but he knows one thing, he gotta protect his friends, that is SENSE AND TRUE FEELNS, the whole gundam seed talks mainly talks about why kira fights and about finding himself, HE MAYBE STILL BE IGNORANT, but he never lost his feelings and senses, he fights because he doesn't want people dieing, u c it in him too, when he fights he never kills the person, he disarms him. because in the end hate will continue if war continues and everyone wanting vengence

im not saying shinn dont got any feeln's, but the path he is following in, is his anger
and shinn is a example of the war, millions of other parents die in war and there is millions of ppl want vengence, nothing will be solve, and kira knows that....

Terracosmo

Tue, 06-28-2005, 04:36 AM

Originally posted by: naruto-kira
what right and wrong maybe discussed in the end of time, unless your a total senseless fool....., dont tell if you kill your mom could be right.

I fail to see what killing your parents has to do with this discussion...

Also, Kira might not directly kill anyone but his interference and disarming leads to death regardless. He knows that as well. Putting it in such a light, one could call Kira a naive weakling who is not strong enough to accept the fact that Freedom -kills- regardless of what he does.

Oh, and it's not like Shinn doesn't protect his friends. He has defended the Minerva several times and saved the situation at numerous crucial situations. Shinn might not have as "grand" plans as Kira does, but he is in no way a senseless fool who does "wrong" things just because he actually has the guts to pull a trigger... guts which Kira lost long ago.

naruto-kira

Tue, 06-28-2005, 04:41 AM

selfish- can be sceen in 2 ways

i could say "yes i am selfish."
i could follow it with another philosiphy
we all came from ONE, and i c and treat everyone as ONE, which is like myself
why??? y do parent love there child??? all living things loves there childrens, the birds wahtever u name it, and y ???maybe because the parent c his child as PART OF HIM OR HER, THERE fORE ONE CANNOT HATE ITSELF, i dont suppose

in the other hand u could say this about shin, he is selfish because
he treat peoples like indivauls(not as himself), then that i would say is not so good =P

dont please dont try to use dumb facts, when sometimes its not about fact, its common sense, like i said LOVE IS LOVE AND HATE IS HATE. YOU YOURSELF KNOWS BEST. dont me wut shin is doing is not for hate, think about wut kira is trying to do...
i dout is for hate...i duno wut your feeln..

Terracosmo

Tue, 06-28-2005, 04:44 AM

Damn man, this is war, not a hippie convention.

Also, I don't understand half of your post i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

naruto-kira

Tue, 06-28-2005, 04:53 AM

those guts u say i would call hate....

u fail to c, meanS u fail u know wut wrong and right, U LOST YOUR SENSES MAYBE???
I WAS USING IT AS A EXAMPLE, SINCE U SAY WUT RIGHT AND WRONG CAN BE ARGUE STILL END OF TIME.

IM NOT SAYING HE DOESN'T PROTECT HIS FRIENDS, IM SAYING THE MAIN CAUSE OF HIS FIGHTING IS TO KILL EAF... IN WAR THOSE STUFF HAPPENS HE NO ONE SPECIAL

AND KIRA FIGHTING SAVES ALOT MORE PEOPLE IN THE END OF THE DAY...IT WEAKENS BOTH SIDE, EVEN IF KIRA KILL 1 MOBILE, IN THE OUTCOME 100 SAVED, THAT MEANS 100 LESS PEOPLE IS GONNA TURN OUT LIKE SHIN, I WILL BUY THAT ANYDAY. AND IF U THINK ENUFF, U WILL KNOW THAT AS WELL...

naruto-kira

Tue, 06-28-2005, 04:55 AM

because maybe your to shallow???

Don't double-post. User has been warned.

GotWoot Moderator

Terracosmo

Tue, 06-28-2005, 05:32 AM

The fact that you type in caps lock aren't going to make you any easier to understand...

I guess I get the gist of it though, but saying that I've lost my senses because I don't agree with your values isn't going to get you anywhere. There are many people like Kira in real wars as well, idealists, dreamers and whatnot. Sadly, they often don't get very far. Same with Kira. He tries to not kill anyone, yet his actions lead to needless death. I pick a soldier like Shinn over a dreamer like Kira any day of the week, at least Shinn gets the job done and knows why the hell he is shooting stuff. It might be for revenge, but so what, it obviously gets results.

Revenge isn't such a bad thing. It might lead to more hate, but almost everything human beings do eventually end up in hate. That's just how we work.

LokeXero

Tue, 06-28-2005, 05:33 AM

Originally posted by: naruto-kira
those guts u say i would call hate....

u fail to c, meanS u fail u know wut wrong and right, U LOST YOUR SENSES MAYBE???
I WAS USING IT AS A EXAMPLE, SINCE U SAY WUT RIGHT AND WRONG CAN BE ARGUE STILL END OF TIME.

IM NOT SAYING HE DOESN'T PROTECT HIS FRIENDS, IM SAYING THE MAIN CAUSE OF HIS FIGHTING IS TO KILL EAF... IN WAR THOSE STUFF HAPPENS HE NO ONE SPECIAL

AND KIRA FIGHTING SAVES ALOT MORE PEOPLE IN THE END OF THE DAY...IT WEAKENS BOTH SIDE, EVEN IF KIRA KILL 1 MOBILE, IN THE OUTCOME 100 SAVED, THAT MEANS 100 LESS PEOPLE IS GONNA TURN OUT LIKE SHIN, I WILL BUY THAT ANYDAY. AND IF U THINK ENUFF, U WILL KNOW THAT AS WELL...

Man you havent come off this convo as smart Naruto-Kira, youve come off pretty noobish IMO. Shinn has only twice killed something in revenge, Freedom and the Orb Fleet, Othertimes hes killed to protect those he cares about which is exactly the same as your Hero Kira. The Difference is Kira killed alotta people and decided not to Kill anymore intentionally where as Shinn views it simply a means to an End, Kira has a grand Scheme for Peace, Shinn simply uses "If i kill all those who want to war then there can be Peace" as his ideal. Pacifism is a nice ideal but it'll never happen because people always lust for Power and Violence is simply 1 form of Power. Kira is a pacifist who wields a killing Machine, Shinn believes hes doing the right thing, not a wrong thing, With Freedom it wasnt simply revenge, it was orders, it only became Revenge when Freedom indirectly killed Shinns love interest, Shinn wouldve still destroyed Freedom Regardless if that hadnt happened. Shinn has always acted for what he believes. He mightve been niave about Stellar but his straight motive isnt revenge.

Dannynonsense

Tue, 06-28-2005, 05:52 AM

Originally posted by: LokeXero

Originally posted by: naruto-kira
those guts u say i would call hate....

u fail to c, meanS u fail u know wut wrong and right, U LOST YOUR SENSES MAYBE???
I WAS USING IT AS A EXAMPLE, SINCE U SAY WUT RIGHT AND WRONG CAN BE ARGUE STILL END OF TIME.

IM NOT SAYING HE DOESN'T PROTECT HIS FRIENDS, IM SAYING THE MAIN CAUSE OF HIS FIGHTING IS TO KILL EAF... IN WAR THOSE STUFF HAPPENS HE NO ONE SPECIAL

AND KIRA FIGHTING SAVES ALOT MORE PEOPLE IN THE END OF THE DAY...IT WEAKENS BOTH SIDE, EVEN IF KIRA KILL 1 MOBILE, IN THE OUTCOME 100 SAVED, THAT MEANS 100 LESS PEOPLE IS GONNA TURN OUT LIKE SHIN, I WILL BUY THAT ANYDAY. AND IF U THINK ENUFF, U WILL KNOW THAT AS WELL...

Man you havent come off this convo as smart Naruto-Kira, youve come off pretty noobish IMO. Shinn has only twice killed something in revenge, Freedom and the Orb Fleet, Othertimes hes killed to protect those he cares about which is exactly the same as your Hero Kira. The Difference is Kira killed alotta people and decided not to Kill anymore intentionally where as Shinn views it simply a means to an End, Kira has a grand Scheme for Peace, Shinn simply uses "If i kill all those who want to war then there can be Peace" as his ideal. Pacifism is a nice ideal but it'll never happen because people always lust for Power and Violence is simply 1 form of Power. Kira is a pacifist who wields a killing Machine, Shinn believes hes doing the right thing, not a wrong thing, With Freedom it wasnt simply revenge, it was orders, it only became Revenge when Freedom indirectly killed Shinns love interest, Shinn wouldve still destroyed Freedom Regardless if that hadnt happened. Shinn has always acted for what he believes. He mightve been niave about Stellar but his straight motive isnt revenge.

though all response hold some truth i think one thing that Loke, terra, and naruto are missing is that everyone has there own sense of right and wrong like good and evil what some people view as evil can be viewed by other as good. they both have there reasons for fighting the only thing about shinn is his reason are more personal and are about himself he joined the millitary for power not to protect people but he does know the pain of loss so naturally it wouldnt be rare for him to protect the minera. however where kira would just stop the enemy in there track shinn would kill them all. it can be argured that shinn is just a crazed killer but like lokezero said his mentallity is "If i kill all those who want to war then there can be Peace" but thats sort of the same thing like kira they have different ways of doing things but the bottom line is the same there both dreamers.

shinn being more realistic though in the method of application. as for kira his goal is not to kill people who fight but to stop them with force,action or whatever. he trys not to kill but some one could die indirectly he's seen what wars have done and doesnt want them to happen because they create people like shinn. since kira doesnt kill though its not like he would be the reason for another shinn emerging from this war. shinn though would be a force to create more people like him who seek power in the hopes of getting some sort of revenge or satisfaction which is why he is the perfect pawn.the most important thing to remeber in this case that kira has found some form of enlightenment and shinn is on a path of destruction which could lead to his untimely demise. both are right and wrong and both are diffrent people.

so in my final note its rather stupid to compare these two since they had diffrent lives and represent diffrent things

Motteh

Tue, 06-28-2005, 07:37 AM

@dannynonsense: when Terra said "What's right and wrong can be discussed to the end of time" he meant that everyone has his/her own sense of justice and what's right and wrong, because in all wars it's a clashing of ideals,
and always the people that are fighting eachother are always fighting for what they think is right, you just misread what Terra meant by what he said

also naruto-kira (or whatever your name is), if you read what i've said above you must realize that you're wrong
since everyone who fights in a war fights for what he believes is right, no one is going to fight for a cause he/she doesn't believe in
because a soldier who doesn't believe in what he's fighting for isn't any use on a battlefield

and also i have to add that if i fighting a war i would pick a soldier like Shinn over a person like Kira anyday
since Shinn still has the guts to pull that trigger, as where Kira lost it a long time ago

Dannynonsense

Tue, 06-28-2005, 08:14 AM

i know terra was saying the same thing i just wanted to emphisize on the point since naruto-kira doesnt relize that yet. and like you said that "people that are fighting eachother are always fighting for what they think is right"

also about picking soldiers even though shinn is an ideal pick you must admit kira is a force to be reckon with which is why the chairman knew he had to take him out of the picture

PSJ

Tue, 06-28-2005, 08:15 AM

Aww, I missed out on the action in here. Good thing Terra appeared. Made it all a little bit more fun as always.

And the past 2 pages has been almost impossible to read, naruto-kira fix your writing.

Motteh

Tue, 06-28-2005, 08:19 AM

Originally posted by: Dannynonsense
also about picking soldiers even though shinn is an ideal pick you must admit kira is a force to be reckon with which is why the chairman knew he had to take him out of the picture

i don't deny that, but in order to win a war you have to either totally annihilate your opponent, or make them surrender, and the way Kira is fighting isn't going to have either as an end result in my opinion
since his enemies won't die (directly) and they can always just put a new arm, leg, head on their suits and thus go out and fight again
you have to see where that leads to
*disabled, repaired, disabled, repaired, disabled, Freedom wrecked, Kira sad* i/expressions/rolleye.gif

DDBen

Tue, 06-28-2005, 08:40 AM

I have absolutely no clue what the last couple of pages attempted to say they looked like they were written by 5 year olds.

That aside people Shinn does not fight to protect at all he has never once fought souly to protect the Minerva or anyone on it. When it came to actions to actually protect someone in Shinn's case he has either avoided the matter and Simply attacked whatever was infront of him, frozen and just blamed those who actually acted afterwords or Killed purely for his own ego.

In the case of the battles between the Minerva and the EA/Orb forces Shinn has essentially ignored the Minerva in battle never once actually taking out a direct threat to the minerva and instead concentraighting on the nearest enemy troop. In a way this is protecting the Minerva by reducing the enemy but he's certainly not standing back taking out missiles headed for the Ship that is left exclusively for Rey and Lunimaria who for whatever reason basically are standing on the ship in order to defend against whatever comes at it. Even when both Rey and Lunimaria were taken out as well as 85% or so of the Minerva's defences where specifically the AA could have easily finished off the ship and ended the battle Shinn's only responce was to continue towards his revenge on orb by attacking Calgari(who essentially hadn't done anything but talk) and the Orb carrier which was relative to the situation not a real threat.

Other examples include him leaving the Ship multiple times as the only opperable mobile suit on the minerva in order to persue his personal objectives in the particular case dumping Stellar on Neo. Which was in a way the only means he could come up with to protect her in his head(out of sight out of mind more or less). However if at that time the Minerva was attacked then it was essentially a sitting duck and letting the enemy commander know that your going to be away from your ship and plan to drop off Stellar is a green flag to attack. Had the EA had any more forces available at the time the Minerva would once again have been done for.

As far as Destroy goes Shinn once determining Stellar was the pilot basically stood there like a target and I don't think its even argueable that had Kira not been there then Shinn would have been killed while standing in a stupor. You could claim Stellar only attacked because she saw Kira but if Kira wasn't there then Neo would have either talked Shinn into standing down and had Stellar finish him off,by saying he would kill her on a differn't channel, or by attacking Shinn personally and Stellar would have made Shinn stop by defending Neo who was obviously paramount to Shinn to the very end.

I essentially see nothing Shinn has accomplished as anything but revenge and at this point it seems more like he just plans to blindly follow Dullindales words because he gives him the best toys. Yes in episode 36 he actually seemed to question the order of shooting down Athran but that is unlikely to stop the order from being completed.

Anyone feel free to give me a single example of Shinn actually putting his life on the line to protect anything. Where his only intention was to protect. Note this excludes dropping Stellar off with Neo as I've stated repeatedly my view on that matter and there is no point in repeating that arguement specifically in yet another thread.

LokeXero

Tue, 06-28-2005, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by: DDBen
Anyone feel free to give me a single example of Shinn actually putting his life on the line to protect anything. Where his only intention was to protect. Note this excludes dropping Stellar off with Neo as I've stated repeatedly my view on that matter and there is no point in repeating that arguement specifically in yet another thread.

Episode 1 GSD he protects Cagalli and Athrun by Jumping in between them and Gaia, Chaos and Abyss.

And thats just 1 instance DDBen, im pretty sure we could find more...Another is the Attack on the Positron Cannon...

darkshadow

Tue, 06-28-2005, 09:26 AM

uhm not sure........ ep 3? 4?, luna come crashing down, yells SHINN!!, shinn hurries in between her and gaia and fires a back off blast

DDBen

Tue, 06-28-2005, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by: LokeXero

Originally posted by: DDBen
Anyone feel free to give me a single example of Shinn actually putting his life on the line to protect anything. Where his only intention was to protect. Note this excludes dropping Stellar off with Neo as I've stated repeatedly my view on that matter and there is no point in repeating that arguement specifically in yet another thread.

Episode 1 GSD he protects Cagalli and Athrun by Jumping in between them and Gaia, Chaos and Abyss.

And thats just 1 instance DDBen, im pretty sure we could find more...Another is the Attack on the Positron Cannon...

I'm at work so I can't check episode 1 but perhaps I should revise my statement as Shinn has more or less fallen from grace over the course of the series. After Junius 7 give one instance. I will acknowledge his actions in episode 1 however against the phantom pain.

The positron cannon is a completely differn't story Shinn wasn't protecting anything he made a attack on a positron cannon and was essentially berserking if I recall correctly.

darkshadow

Tue, 06-28-2005, 09:39 AM

he was protecting that little girls village

PSJ

Tue, 06-28-2005, 09:48 AM

He has protected a couple of times to. He tried to save Asuran when they were descending into the atmosphere in Ep. 6.

As for the battles his order probably was to fight the enemy troops while Luna and Rey protects the Minerva. Shinn did nothing wrong in the battles by not protecting the Minerva. You think he is doing wrong because you compare him to Kira in SEED where he protected the Archangel all the time. However Kira was not a soldier and didn't have military training.

As for the comment about shooting down Asuran. From ZAFT's point of view he should be shot down as he is a deserter who stole a state of the art mobile suit. If Shinn decides to shoot at Asuran he once again is doing nothing wrong, he simply is being a soldier.

Shinn believes in Dullinandal's words which again is nothing wrong. People tend to do that, believe in people. What would the world look like without leaders? The only reason we think it's stupid to follow Dullinandal is because we know about the fake Lacus and other wierd things he is doing. Shinn does not know this therefore i see nothing wrong with following Dullinandal. If you look past the dirty things we know about Dullinandal i think many of us would believe in his words to.

Jurojin

Tue, 06-28-2005, 09:53 AM

AND IF U THINK ENUFF, U WILL KNOW THAT AS WELL...

Of course, if I think enough, I'd know that proper spelling, grammar, and sentence structure would help get points across better than that jarbled mess....

There is no Universal sense of right and wrong. Trying to convince yourself otherwise is only lying to yourself.

Nai

Tue, 06-28-2005, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by: PSJ
As for the battles his order probably was to fight the enemy troops while Luna and Rey protects the Minerva.Precisely. Shinn's purpose on the battlefield is to take down the enemies ( which he by all records does pretty damn well ) whilst Lunamaria and Rey are supposed to protect the Minerva.

Oh and, forgetting that Shinn put his life on the line to save Stellar, are you DDBen? Oh wait, Stellar deserved to be slaughtered like a pig so she doesn't count, right? And no, I'm not referring to when he dropped her off with Neo. I'm referring to when he tried to reason with her whilst she was in Destroy.

Dannynonsense

Tue, 06-28-2005, 11:16 AM

wow the action never stops okay the thing about shinn not protecting people i dont know about that just because he doesnt do it like kira doesnt mean he wont protect anything its just he's more personal about it. like i said ealier they kira and shinn are completely two different people. still all in all i just think shinn has a different way of doing things

@motteh: my statement ealier was only to acknowledege kira's strength on the battlefield which the chairman also acknowledge(if you pay attention to when he did you'll notic shinn getting mad). its true disable suits can be repaired but if a good tactictioner were to come up with a plan like let kira loose on the enemy first then half way through the battle bring the army and pick off what left. even though its a cheap plan its still effective and gets the same annhilation results

MeroTZ

Tue, 06-28-2005, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by: LokeXero

Originally posted by: DDBen
Anyone feel free to give me a single example of Shinn actually putting his life on the line to protect anything. Where his only intention was to protect. Note this excludes dropping Stellar off with Neo as I've stated repeatedly my view on that matter and there is no point in repeating that arguement specifically in yet another thread.

Episode 1 GSD he protects Cagalli and Athrun by Jumping in between them and Gaia, Chaos and Abyss.

And thats just 1 instance DDBen, im pretty sure we could find more...Another is the Attack on the Positron Cannon...

you mean the part where he moves to engage enemy mobile suits? The part he would have done regardless of Athrun and Cagali's presence?

The one really selfless thing he has done that I can remember is risking his life to save Athrun. I'll give him full credit for that.

Terracosmo

Tue, 06-28-2005, 12:29 PM

PSJ put the whole thing quite well.

I believe it is very easy for us to summarize the events of GS/D and confine things as right/wrong/smart/stupid, just because we have such a perspective. However, for the characters themselves, they are living in a constant "darkness" clouding what exactly is taking place. Taking that into consideration when arguing about characters is very important in my opinion.

Dannynonsense

Tue, 06-28-2005, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
PSJ put the whole thing quite well.

I believe it is very easy for us to summarize the events of GS/D and confine things as right/wrong/smart/stupid, just because we have such a perspective. However, for the characters themselves, they are living in a constant "darkness" clouding what exactly is taking place. Taking that into consideration when arguing about characters is very important in my opinion.

yep that is very true most people might find themsleves yelling at a character for something they did because they know whats really going on whereas the character is just following orders.

i use to really find shinn as a useless character some point in the series but i think of him know as natarle burlge or however you spell her name there just soldiers in the end following orders. shinn is more extreme version since he lets his emotions get caught up sometimes. ahh ( scratches head) whatever the point is you cant blame the character you have to take in the superiors who really control everything.

but anyways Asuran Zara is the man!!!!

DDBen

Tue, 06-28-2005, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by: PSJ
He has protected a couple of times to. He tried to save Asuran when they were descending into the atmosphere in Ep. 6.

As for the battles his order probably was to fight the enemy troops while Luna and Rey protects the Minerva. Shinn did nothing wrong in the battles by not protecting the Minerva. You think he is doing wrong because you compare him to Kira in SEED where he protected the Archangel all the time. However Kira was not a soldier and didn't have military training.

As for the comment about shooting down Asuran. From ZAFT's point of view he should be shot down as he is a deserter who stole a state of the art mobile suit. If Shinn decides to shoot at Asuran he once again is doing nothing wrong, he simply is being a soldier.

Shinn believes in Dullinandal's words which again is nothing wrong. People tend to do that, believe in people. What would the world look like without leaders? The only reason we think it's stupid to follow Dullinandal is because we know about the fake Lacus and other wierd things he is doing. Shinn does not know this therefore i see nothing wrong with following Dullinandal. If you look past the dirty things we know about Dullinandal i think many of us would believe in his words to.

I revised the earlier comment to include only post junius 7 Shinn instead of pre as that was a turning point in his character. Also I agree that Luna and Rey were mainly units to protect the Minerva while Shinn was more of the main attack unit that went out to deal with enemy threats. The point still stands however that Shinn does not defend the ship he kills enemy units. In particular when after every other MS of the Minerva as well as the majority of its armorments were destroyed in the second EA/Orb VS Minerva battle that Shinn still left the Minerva completely defenceless had Kira choosen to take out the Minerva instead of protecting his sister there is absolutely no way the Ship wouldn't have been completely destroyed leaving Shinn to run out of power and get himself killed.

Also note I'm not really comparing Shinn to Kira as Kira was for most of seed the only MS on the AA to begin with so he was forced to both defend the Ship as well as deal with enemy units which is just overall a entirely differn't mission then Shinn has ever actually done.

As for shooting down Athran thats Shinn's duty but at the same time I find it very very odd that Rey is just like warm up legend I'm taking it out. Considering that rey has no claim to the suit and its unlikely just anyone would have clearence to borrow a nuclear suit. Do note its possible that after his talk with Dullindale that he had the suit reasigned to Rey but as he notified Shinn it just seemed VERY odd to me.

PSJ

Tue, 06-28-2005, 01:52 PM

True the Minerva could have been destroyed but if they need help they have to order Shinn to do so. Shinn saved the people that were being used as slaves at that EAF base they were building.

To me it seems that you are comparing Shinn to Kira all the time not just in this case. Besides Kira for the most part choosed to protect the Archangel and did it out of his own free will. The Archangel did a pretty good job defending itself anyway. Kira did everything out of his own free will and was never really a soldier.

Rey do not belong in this discussion at all. Why are you bringing him in? That should go in the Ep. 36 discussion thread if anywhere. I don't see Rey's name in the topic title do you?

Filthy_Pervert

Tue, 06-28-2005, 03:22 PM

I hated Shinn until the 36 episode, but now I just think of him as a child, who is full of hatred. So I'm starting to hate someone else from now on. i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif
As for Kira... I don't like him, I don't hate hime. He did nothing interesting in GSD. I think it would be better if Shinn killed him, because there are a lot of other interesting characters i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

DDBen

Tue, 06-28-2005, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by: PSJ
True the Minerva could have been destroyed but if they need help they have to order Shinn to do so. Shinn saved the people that were being used as slaves at that EAF base they were building.

To me it seems that you are comparing Shinn to Kira all the time not just in this case. Besides Kira for the most part choosed to protect the Archangel and did it out of his own free will. The Archangel did a pretty good job defending itself anyway. Kira did everything out of his own free will and was never really a soldier.

Rey do not belong in this discussion at all. Why are you bringing him in? That should go in the Ep. 36 discussion thread if anywhere. I don't see Rey's name in the topic title do you?

many things have been discussed here not directly related to the topic.

That aside even when ordered not to do something it hasn't stopped Shinn from doing it expecially in the case of the EAF base with slaves where he simply slaughtered everyone without offering surrender. What he did there was no better then what Stellar did with Destroy it was simply on a smaller scale.

As for comparing Kira to Shinn thats the point of the topic so absolutely it can be done read what I wrote as I was specifically talking about there positions on the ship being uncompareable. As for Kira always having a choice that is far from the case with the one acception where he decides he needs to stay on the AA to protect his friends before that giving up just ment he and his friends would die.

Nai

Tue, 06-28-2005, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by: DDBen
That aside even when ordered not to do something it hasn't stopped Shinn from doing it expecially in the case of the EAF base with slaves where he simply slaughtered everyone without offering surrender. What he did there was no better then what Stellar did with Destroy it was simply on a smaller scale.Get real. Shinn killed military personnel in fucking wartimes whilst Destroy was used to level an entire city filled with civilians. Note, CITY not MILITARY INSTALLATION. Big fucking difference and if you can't see that.. well, then I pity you.

PSJ

Tue, 06-28-2005, 05:10 PM

Stellar killed civilians, Shinn killed soldiers who were supervising slavery. I can see a big diffrence. Shinn also got corrected on this afterwards.

What i meant with you comparing Shinn to Kira is that you don't look at it even fairly objective. You only base it on your own opinion which is fine really we know you hate Shinn but you could've ended it there. In the discussions we have had here being objective is more important than what you think is right and wrong.

For example Shinn destroying the whole orb fleet. In this case there is nothing about right and wrong as he is a soldier and is supposed to destroy his enemy. You might think it's wrong but that's rather stupid, saying that a soldier can't kill his enemies. What is he suppposed to do then?

Dannynonsense

Tue, 06-28-2005, 06:55 PM

which is very true psj but when you think about it killing is killing and shinn is an effective killing machine the only thing i found the most disturbing about him is when he watched with smile while the newly liberated people killed eaf soldiers in cold blood even though the soldiers enslaved them still its cold blood and thats just wrong but to most people its only anime right.

i guess the thing about shinn is that he can do so much and it doesnt bother him "im worried he so young he can become addict to war" - Mwu La Flagga it not about him killing the people right then and there because of orders he was given the question is does he feel something about it after like talia however the perfect soldier shouldnt have any feelings towards his duty.

Moving on anyways Asuran Zara is the man!!!!

Terracosmo

Tue, 06-28-2005, 07:02 PM

I'd smile in Shinn's position. Death to the opposition!

Rational from an outsider's viewpoint? Not at all.
Normal human behavior in such a situation? Most likely. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

Dannynonsense

Tue, 06-28-2005, 08:12 PM

its really whatever the thing about him smilling and looking back thats probbally a good moment for him and the day the shinn haters began to have ammunitions for the the argruments that came to follow

naruto-kira

Tue, 06-28-2005, 08:13 PM

such foolishness trying to defend shinn....., you confuse yourself by different ideals,

naruto-kira

Tue, 06-28-2005, 08:37 PM

everyone c the other opponent AS the "BAD GUY" I HATE TO REPEAT MYSELF OVER AND OVER, WHATS RIGHT AND WRONG, WHAT RIGHT AND WRONG IS NEVER MY OPINION OR ANYONES OPINION. RIGHT IS RIGHT AND WRONG IS WRONG, NO ONE CAN DENIED IT, NO MATTER WUT U SAY,"DIFFERENT SITUATION OR WHATEVER" I HATE TO START ALL OVER AGAIN BECAUSE YOUR FILL WITH DIFFERENT IDEALS, BUT U LOST YOUR SENSES AS A PERSON.

IS REALLY BASIC, IF U DONT THINK TOO HARD OR OVER THINK IT......., I DONT THINK ANYONE IS LIKE PURE EVIL NATURALLY, EVERYONE HAVE GOOD AND BAD IN THEM. PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERNT IDEALS THATS WHY THERE WAR.
BUT LET ME TELL U SOMETHING, "IF U SEE PEOPLE AS INDIVUALS" THAT IS THE REASON WHY THERE ARE WARS.

IF I KILLED EACH PERSON FOR HAVING A DIFFERENT IDEAL AS ME, WOULD U CALLED ME DOING THE RIGHT THING, DO U GETTING ANYTHING OUT OF IT. THE REASON Y I HATE SHINN BECAUSE HE FAIL TO DO THAT, HE FAIL TO THINK ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE FEEL, ITS ALL ABOUT HIMSELF, WHile KIRA ALL HE WANTS TO DO IT SOPT THE FIGHTING. maybe if u open up your heart u will know....

You just double-posted for the third time in a row. This is the last warning. Don't do it again or actions will be taken.

GotWoot Moderator

Terracosmo

Tue, 06-28-2005, 08:45 PM

Man, stop writing in caps lock.

Also, "right and wrong" is still an opinion. What you said is just an opinion, YOUR opinion.

ChaosK

Tue, 06-28-2005, 08:50 PM

err ... what the FUCK?!

shinn fights for the people he cares about, while it may be unjust its what hes doing, from his point of view, theres nothing wrong with tdont double post use edit button andhat, if i was him, i'd say theres nothing wrong either, but from the spectator's point of view, it IS wrong, but what is kira's objective? to stop war with a couple of cannons on his gundam? it doesnt work that way. Kira should KNOW he cant stop the war, so what does he do? he stops what he can, heine getting killed was heine's own stupidity, they can say that kira caused all the confusion, but theres no telling what would've happened if kira hadn't stepped in.

Shinn's reasoning for wanting to kill kira for stellar is wrong, but hes blinded by emotion, as was kira in gundam seed.

Naruto-kira, you fail to see how others will feel seeing your post, right now i'm feeling like laughing at you.

Dannynonsense

Tue, 06-28-2005, 08:57 PM

okay and the point of the double post was naruto-kira

seriously have you read the post aims towards you today. obviously not and to show you that ill use your own example to make you feel stupid. say if you did kill each person for having an ideal different than yours wouldnt you think you were right whereas others would think you were wrong there's a thin line between right and wrong you know. all people are different and believe different things.

and shut the fuck up saying people loss there sense everyone here is just interperting things from diffrent views who the hell are you to say peole loss their sense's war is war people die soldiers follow orders shinn has a bad personality but he is a soldier (even though i dont think anything of him) he's a soldier following his orders which is the right thing to do because he's happy with them is a diffrent story. lastly stop acting like your some preacher man now i see why people hate kira

naruto-kira

Tue, 06-28-2005, 09:02 PM

is not about who is right and who is wrong in the war
because each zaft or eaf will think there "RIGHT!"
THE REASON THEY R FIGHTING IS BECAUSE THEY HAVE DIFFERENT IDEALS.
IF I GET A NICKLE FOR EACH TIME I KILLING A PERSON THAT HAS A DIFFERENT IDEAL AS ME, I WOULD BE RICH.....
U MAY SAY ZAFT IS RIGHT, BECAUSE IT ALL ABOUT SURVIAL OF THE FITTEST,BUT IF U BELIEVE IN THAT, WOULD U SAY THAT IS PURE???? JUS BECAUSE YOUR BETTER THAN THE PERSON THAT GIVE U THE RIGHTS TO TAKE OVER OR KILL THEM, THEN I WOULD SAY THATS EVIL, AND IF EACH PERSON KILLED A PERSON BECAUSE HE BETTER THAN THEM, EVERYONE WOULD BE DEAD...YOU'LL JUS BE LIKE HITLER...

WUT KIRA IS TRYING TO DO IS TO OPEN UP A NEW IDEAL, OPEN UP A PATH TO PEOPLE, THAT THEY DONT HAVE TO FIGHT, BOTH NATURALS AND COORDINATORS CAN BENEFIT EACH OTHER.

YES U SAY SAY A BUNCH OF SITUATIONS, ZAFT ENEMIES R LOGOS, WHICH IS EAF BASICALLY.... BUT ONE THING HITLER HIMSELF I DONT THINK IS PURE EVIL, WHO DOESN'T WANTED PEACE AND HARMONY FOR THERE OWN KIND, NOT LIKE HITLER FEEDS ON KILL, MAYBE HE HIMSELF OVER THINKS THINGS LIKE SOME OF U GUYS WHICH FAILED UNDERSTAND TRUE PEACE AND HARMONY

naruto-kira

Tue, 06-28-2005, 09:09 PM

I THINK SOLDIER FOLLOW ORDER R JUS A PUPPET....IF U DONT CALL THAT THE WRONG THING, THEN MAYBE U LIVE A LIFE FOLLOWING ORDERS...AND THIS IS A OPEN FORUM I COULD SAY WHATEVER I WANT, U CANNOT STOP MY "FREEDOM"...

See you in a week.

GotWoot Moderator

intense

Tue, 06-28-2005, 09:25 PM

i dont like shinn... i think he should die. His beliefs are not morally right, and i just hate how she always screams before he kills/when someone dies etc etc. I dont know, but this is just me, my opinion right?... i guess it was his first impression on me from the very first episode(s).

TheFlash

Tue, 06-28-2005, 09:58 PM

each person does have different ideas, but not different feelings.

RedX1z

Tue, 06-28-2005, 10:13 PM

Kira>Shinn

I really don't know what everyone is arguing about, but in my opinion shinn is just a power hungry freak. Shinn wanted to kill Kira for Stellar's death, a girl who was in the EAF, now if you think about it, if Minerva and Shinn didn't get orders to shoot down Archangel and Freedom, do you think that would've stopped him? when you come to think of it, I think he's not true to the ZAFT ways, instead has his own selfish goals and need. Shinn shouldn't be targeting Kira, because that would mean getting revenge for someone in the opposing force, which to me, wouldn't really make sense now, would it?

Jurojin

Wed, 06-29-2005, 08:15 AM

Just wanted to say, I love it when people don't listen to and get banned by the mods. It's... just a wonderful thing i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

DDBen

Wed, 06-29-2005, 08:40 AM

Originally posted by: Nai

Originally posted by: DDBen
That aside even when ordered not to do something it hasn't stopped Shinn from doing it expecially in the case of the EAF base with slaves where he simply slaughtered everyone without offering surrender. What he did there was no better then what Stellar did with Destroy it was simply on a smaller scale.Get real. Shinn killed military personnel in fucking wartimes whilst Destroy was used to level an entire city filled with civilians. Note, CITY not MILITARY INSTALLATION. Big fucking difference and if you can't see that.. well, then I pity you.

Originally posted by: PSJ
Stellar killed civilians, Shinn killed soldiers who were supervising slavery. I can see a big diffrence. Shinn also got corrected on this afterwards.

What i meant with you comparing Shinn to Kira is that you don't look at it even fairly objective. You only base it on your own opinion which is fine really we know you hate Shinn but you could've ended it there. In the discussions we have had here being objective is more important than what you think is right and wrong.

For example Shinn destroying the whole orb fleet. In this case there is nothing about right and wrong as he is a soldier and is supposed to destroy his enemy. You might think it's wrong but that's rather stupid, saying that a soldier can't kill his enemies. What is he suppposed to do then?

Both of them killed people unable to defend themselves. Both of them in there actions definatly killed enemy soldiers. In Stellars case she also killed those who freely gave aid to and supported the enemy. Shinn very easily could have also killed civilians and through his actions they clearly showed some civilians being shot. There is very little differnce in the situations aside from the EA base was holding people against there will.

Note that they specifically stated all cities attacked by destroy supported Zafts actions so who is to say weather or not that makes the innocent when it clearly means from a military standpoint those people are against you. Also note that Stellar in this case was actually following orders while Shinn took matters into his own hand and killed people who could have easily been used to gain intel on the EA's actions which could have saved more lives.

I don't think either of there actions are acceptable but I do think there offences are equal even though Stellars is obviously on a larger scale.

PSJ

Wed, 06-29-2005, 09:11 AM

Oh yea? I don't.

Stellar's is worse than Shinn. In a war you don't kill civilians even if they support the opposing side. There is no way you can justify killing civilians, just realize it Stellar's actions were worse than Shinn's.

DDBen

Wed, 06-29-2005, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by: PSJ
Oh yea? I don't.

Stellar's is worse than Shinn. In a war you don't kill civilians even if they support the opposing side. There is no way you can justify killing civilians, just realize it Stellar's actions were worse than Shinn's.

From a civilian standpoint her actions were definatly worse.
From a military standpoint Shinn's actions were worse because he acted against orders.

its all a matter of perspective really.

darkshadow

Wed, 06-29-2005, 11:00 AM

from a military standpoint civilian casualties are unacceptable, so in both ways stellar was being far worse

DDBen

Wed, 06-29-2005, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by: darkshadow
from a military standpoint civilian casualties are unacceptable, so in both ways stellar was being far worse

completely incorrect when the EA's purpose is to kill all coordinators so civilian casualties are actually something there after. How else do you explain launching nukes at colonies.

edit: slight revision its Blue cosmoses plan to kill all coordinators they just happened to be running both those opperations as the EA. In other words there are no civilians when your aiming for genocide. Heck look at Hitler and show me where he felt killing a civilian was unacceptable.

darkshadow

Wed, 06-29-2005, 02:30 PM

you are wrong, then if you aim it like that it isnt a military standpoint ne more, but a personal ideal/standpoint

Nai

Wed, 06-29-2005, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by: DDBen
Heck look at Hitler and show me where he felt killing a civilian was unacceptable.
I really would love to know why on earth you'd make Hitler your example of a person who had a militaristic view on things. Because frankly, the man was fucking insane and very much ruled by his own emotions. The very reason why Germany fell was because Hitler unwisely ordered an offense on Russia. Germany did indeed have some brilliant military minds. Hitler however, was pretty much the opposite of that. A man ruled by his own bigotry and hate.

With that said, Shinn killed military personnel who held prisoners.

Destroy, decimated an entire city filled with civilians.

Once again, BIG FUCKING DIFFERENCE.

Dannynonsense

Wed, 06-29-2005, 04:07 PM

i would have to say hitler was ruled by power not his emotion but anyways back to GSD there is so many angles these situations can be viewed at however i think we should only look at if from the millitaristic and personal angle all the others just confuse things

TheFlash

Wed, 06-29-2005, 05:39 PM

i think hitler was used as an example because as insane hitler could be it doesn't mean he would kill is own people, he also had ideas of how he viewed life. and the war on naturals and coordinators arent that much of a difference. hitler believed in supremacy and survival of the fittest...he felt his kind r superior. and thats the main plot of the war, if u watched gundam seed. the naturals are jelous, and feared they gonna get eliminated or whatever. that is roots of the war. and thats how everything started.

DDBen

Wed, 06-29-2005, 09:02 PM

Well Nai I would recommend you read the post by TheFlash as he is correct. Hitler believed that only his supreme race should remain and to do so he killed everyone who he felt that would pollute the supreme race. As both naturals and Coordinator top brass essentially beleaves those who are not of like kind need to be killed off entirely I would say thiat the underlining reason for the war is directly related to hitlers way of thinking.

There are no civilians in genocide its a simple concept you kill everyone of a specific group with no regaurd for civilians. Make no mistake the wars in the seed universe have all been about genocide. In the case of Dullindale he believes everyone should be killed so the world can be reset. In the case of the EA they believe that all coordinators need to be killed.

If you can't understand the EA does not have civilians in mind at all only those who are the enemy and those that arn't you have no idea what the series is about. Its the same way in episode 36 of GSD that dullindale was able to so casually toss Athran aside the moment he felt he was of no further use to him.

darkshadow

Wed, 06-29-2005, 09:14 PM

thats not the goddamn point man, the point is that in what way you want to present it, civillian casualties are always unacceptable from a military standpoint, what the hell the country leaders decide is THEIR point of view, NOT a military point of view, a soldier is never trained to take down civillians, heck if possible enemy soldiers become POW, so really stop spouting nonsense
shinn killed military, thats exactly what a soldier is supposed to do, supress the enemy by all means possible, unless an other order is given ( like when athrun said NOT to destroy gaia, he OBEYED)
stellar used the ultra power of destroy to BLAST away cities FILLED with civillians, that is NOT a military way of taking action, i bet that if neo could, he would not permit the attack, but seeing he is not in command he HAS to follow orders

you are pratically saying its the military way of walking up to a 8 year old child, and unloading your smg on her.......fool