Episode 34 (may contain SPOILERS)

[PSJ]

Originally posted by: ch4kz


Originally posted by: Digitalgirl


Originally posted by: PTX-003C


Originally posted by: Mut@chi


Originally posted by: PTX-003C

Stupid fucking fight.

I hate this MAIN CHARACTER HAS TO WIN bullshit.

what are you talking about...kira just lost today....
main characters does lose
What the fuck?

it's true...the director announced long time ago that Kira is the main charactor in gsd


.....Well I dislike shinn...and I hate him even more after he started going insane...but he is a decent character..it was a bit of a BS fight though....but KIRA SEEMED to be in SEED mode the whole time...but what is confusing me is that don't they always show when someone goes seed?

I am not sure what to beleive about these long forgotten quotes above, Did the director actually announce that Kira was the main character of GSD. if so, everything makes so much more sense. Shinn beating Kira, sets Shinn up for a major fall in later episodes. If not Then Kira is the Hero or at least that is my opinion. I think Shinn is turning evil, he may even turn out to be a bad guy. If not how will the director get shinn out of the mental state he is in to make him out to be the Hero..or the MAIN character, which is questionable...because some people say that the director already announced Kira was the main character. Shinn I think is insane. I dislike Shinn a lot but that is not really clouding my judgment about anything. Shinn fought really really well, he out piloted Kira in that fight, but that was for a lot of reasons already mentioned.

For the record Kira is most definatley alive, this reminds of the time when athurna destroyed Kira's MS, it was already announced that Kira is piloting Strike Freedom...and about the explosion I am totoally lost on that., however Kira's fate probably won't be revealed for a couple of eps.

Athuran should most def come back to being normal after this last ep. This was def. a wake up call, but who knows.

About stellar agree with the sister brother thing, but nothing is really proven about that, They may have loved each other more.

Kira and Shinn took very different paths ins GS/GSD...they maty look similar but they are not. I almost agree that Shinn is jsut a male version of frey...but he may be the main character...

Personally I am hoping whoever I quoted about the director saying Kira is the main character is right...! Kira is my fav....

both of them are main characters. it was the same in seed with asuran and kira they were both main characters.

[XwingRob]

Originally posted by: ch4kz
[


.....Well I dislike shinn...and I hate him even more after he started going insane...but he is a decent character..it was a bit of a BS fight though....but KIRA SEEMED to be in SEED mode the whole time...but what is confusing me is that don't they always show when someone goes seed?

.

No, I'm pretty sure they never showed Lacus going SEED. Even though she did have the eyes.

[ch4kz]

That does make more sense haveing them both as main characters....now I wonder who will end up coming into the Hero character, I know Kira came into being more of the Hero rather then Athuran in GS, but Athuran was still up there, but Kira is already a Hero now, will Shinn ever take that roll away from Kira, with Shinn's mentaltiy I doubt it. Shinn is going a bit mad...but you never know with this director, he throws a lot of twisits, plus uses a lot of plot scenes from other series. I think Kira will eventually come out on top, juat because he is the Hero and the 'ultimate coordinator'. I doubt Shinn will be able to take that roll away from Kira because of his mentality and the way the story is progressing. It is hinting more and more that Shinn is going evil, but almost similar things happend to Kira in GS, but I think Kira's reasons and reactions were always more just...you could say. Shinn's and Kira's path look simila r but they are not at all....Kira's defeat now sets Shinn up for a big defeat later on, but it may never happend...Shinn may evolve by some miracle...but i really don't want that to happen...

That what I thought about Seed...Kira was in SEED...my friend seems to think otherwise....he refused to beleive shinn can take Kira in seed...I do to, but it happend....even though there were a lot of distractions..
Now on to....bashing..the director should burn for makuing shinn beat KIRA!!!....

I hope shinn gets beaten really really bad...because I truly want Shinn to die soon....I wanna see him get smashed by strike freedom.(there no reason to reply to this bashing...because its just me stating my opinion and what I want to happend)...I know some other people would like Kira to stay dead...but w.e....SHINN SHOULD DIE...he is a maniac
The stuff above was what you should be replying about...that is actually as non biased as it get...just going along with what i have seen)

[XwingRob]

Originally posted by: ch4kz
That does make more sense haveing them both as main characters....now I wonder who will end up coming into the Hero character, I know Kira came into being more of the Hero rather then Athuran in GS, but Athuran was still up there, but Kira is already a Hero now, will Shinn ever take that roll away from Kira, with Shinn's mentaltiy I doubt it. Shinn is going a bit mad...but you never know with this director, he throws a lot of twisits, plus uses a lot of plot scenes from other series. I think Kira will eventually come out on top, juat because he is the Hero and the 'ultimate coordinator'. I doubt Shinn will be able to take that roll away from Kira because of his mentality and the way the story is progressing. It is hinting more and more that Shinn is going evil, but almost similar things happend to Kira in GS, but I think Kira's reasons and reactions were always more just...you could say. Shinn's and Kira's path look simila r but they are not at all....Kira's defeat now sets Shinn up for a big defeat later on, but it may never happend...Shinn may evolve by some miracle...but i really don't want that to happen...

That what I thought about Seed...Kira was in SEED...my friend seems to think otherwise....he refused to beleive shinn can take Kira in seed...I do to, but it happend....even though there were a lot of distractions..
Now on to....bashing..the director should burn for makuing shinn beat KIRA!!!....

I hope shinn gets beaten really really bad...because I truly want Shinn to die soon....I wanna see him get smashed by strike freedom.(there no reason to reply to this bashing...because its just me stating my opinion and what I want to happend)...I know some other people would like Kira to stay dead...but w.e....SHINN SHOULD DIE...he is a maniac
The stuff above was what you should be replying about...that is actually as non biased as it get...just going along with what i have seen)


Shinn shouldn't die. He should have a chance to see the good way of doing things. If he continues to be crazy killing bastard, then he should get sabered in the final episode. Heh.
As for Shinn beating Kira, who cares really? We know Kira isn't dead, and he is gonna get some uber mobile suit now. Though I don't understand why everyone thinking Shinn is the greatest pilot ever, he had every possible advantage(he was prepared, Kira was watching Archangel, etc.) and had a mobile suit that took advantage of Kira's non-willing to kill. Though I'm not saying Shinn is a bad pilot by any means.

CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?!!?!?!?!oneonequestionmark?!?!!?!?!

[antoine]

there is more than 1 main character in gsd, and if you can't understand that, deal with it or cry.

Kira took on his main character role after he was dragged into the war, and there would be no reason for him to be a main character otherwise.

Shinn has made his greatest accomplishment, but as many others have said, NOW WHAT?

[XwingRob]

NOW WHAT? is a very good question indeed.
I'm curious how there gonna wrap everything up in the next 16 episodes..

[ch4kz]

Antione...if you havent read my post...I SAID i understoond there were two main characters...I am saying which one will become the HERO character in the end...MAIN AND HERO ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS....blahh now what...we will just have to wait an see. We all know that if certain stuff happends people will start ranting off again, Like people have and i have a bit...anyway you asked the most logical question in this topic...yet ^_^

Xwingrob...didn't I say there was no point in replying to my bashing...Its jsut what I want to happend in my dreams...see shinn die. ...~_^...but really I don;'t actually hate shinn I jsut don't agree with what the director did, to many holes...but it doesn't matter what is done is done, we jsut got to wait and find out. i am trying to get along, I haven't made any crude remarks about anything except int eh bashing part...wich i told people to ingore.

I my last post the 1st parqraph was the my true response...the bashing was jsut to let out some stress(second paragraph.

I still think Shinn may go evil. I am not saying its true, I am just saying it is a possiblity....

If kira does end up dead which i highly doubt...i am 100 percent sure kira will remain alive, Mwu may take strike freedom...blahh that won't happend so you can almsot forgot i said it, I just had to say it.

[XwingRob]

Originally posted by: ch4kz


Xwingrob...didn't I say there was no point in replying to my bashing...Its jsut what I want to happend in my dreams...see shinn die. ...~_^...but really I don;'t actually hate shinn I jsut don't agree with what the director did, to many holes...but it doesn't matter what is done is done, we jsut got to wait and find out. i am trying to get along, I haven't made any crude remarks about anything except int eh bashing part...wich i told people to ingore.


Hmm, I guess you did say it. My bad.

[Dannynonsense]

the battle between kira and shinn is over for now the next battle is the smacking that asuran is gonna give shinn. but on to another note its clear that shinn is most likely gonna be the bad guy i doubt he will join the AA its makes no sense for him to join that ship and i doubt they can change him in these last 16 episodes. finally Shinn can not and will never be able to defeat kira the supreme mobile suit pilot his only rival is asuran

[antoine]

well i was referring to everyone as a whole, but my apologies.

[ch4kz]

no problem, My bad. I took it the wrong way. ^_^...

what do u think of the chairman, he has been annoying me lately. I love the kind of character he is ie: a manipulative ass!..but i dislike him because he is manipulating people against my fav character...

Asurna should def lay the smack down on shinn,.

[Nai]

What an excellent episode. I was crying in joy as Shinn totally won me over with his devastating sexyness which was oh so flamboyantly displayed ( the split evade was just DIVINE! ), and the laughter in the end was simply perfect icing on the cake. It was about time Kira got pushed off his high horse and fell right into the dirt. Hopefully, he will die. If not, he should at least stop acting like an arrogant imbecile and start using those "awesome skills" he has in a proper way.

[ChaosK]

you mean by using his "awsome skills" in the proper way as kill shinn who's a total moron with them? then yes, use them in the "proper way"

[Nai]

Originally posted by: Chaoskiddo
you mean by using his "awsome skills" in the proper way as kill shinn who's a total moron with them? then yes, use them in the "proper way"Yup. I mean, it is pretty sad to be totally owned by a "total moron," isn't it?

Kira has considered himself completely superior to everyone else up until now. He has thought that he can just waltz in, disable everyone else, and then waltz out with a broad smile on his lips. It's about time someone set him straight on that, and in the process damage his heavily inflated ego.

Call Shinn whatever you want, at least he made some research, some planning and went in with the intent to kill his opponent rather than just humiliate him.

[DeathscytheVII]

When i first saw GSD i hated shinn with a passion, but eventually i started liking him. He is his own character, the 'anti-hero', not one of those athrun/kira clones i initially predicted him to be, and thankfully, because of this, the story of GSD is more interesting.

For this battle, i give shinn props. He uses every advantage given to him, and his shield move was extremely skilled. Freedom however, seemed a bit toned down in this fight, and i am now confused as to why the GS crew threw in that 'Kira is the ultimate coordinator' line in the first series, because that is totally disproven here.

Shinn however, is long over due for some humbling, and i sincerely hope Athrun redeems himself next ep by kicking shinn's ass, haha, even if it gets him arrested. Shinn needs to know the consequences of his actions, how releasing stellar resulted in so many people dying. His laugh at the end was really disturbing.

Also, if there is any fairness at all (which i doubt there is), i hope that they at least pronounce shinn's Impulse as 'damaged beyond repair'. This helps keep Shinn's power in check as well as give some tribute to how difficult freedom was taken down. Plus... when Kira eventually owns shinn, it just won't feel the same when he has a better suit i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif and shinn doesn't.

[Roko]

alrite..for all you Shinn hater out there, I got this from Seed Genesis (courtesy of Genesis on page 3 of the comments section):
1 (http://img287.echo.cx/my.php?image=cat33dm1eo.jpg)
2 (http://img287.echo.cx/my.php?image=11175449041107al.jpg)
3 (http://img287.echo.cx/my.php?image=11185018050411sn.jpg)

[Knives122]

Ive seen those, I've also seen some little comic called the K.O.S(king of seed) its pretty funny IMO

[Roko]

ooh...I wanna see. link if you can plz.

[darkshadow]

lol athrun wont be arrested, he's FAITH i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif lol he can do whatever he wants

[Knives122]

I'll put it in the GS Funnies thread

[Motteh]

i agree that the disconnection dodge move Shinn pulled along with the shield reflecting shot was really awesome
especially since it looked like Kira intended to strike his cockpit when he dodge it by disconnecting his suit
so it shows that Shinn really has skill to back his attidude (which i find refreshing)



Originally posted by: ch4kz
but really I don;'t actually hate shinn I jsut don't agree with what the director did, to many holes
well Seed itself ended literally being mostly holes
alot of issues were left undiscussed and unexplained
and those 2 episodes where Rau made his plans known to Kira and Mwu simply added more holes and thus confusion but i find that to be a factor that kept drawing me back to Seed and now to Destiny
i want to fill up those holes if possible



Originally posted by: Dannynonsense
the battle between kira and shinn is over for now the next battle is the smacking that asuran is gonna give shinn. but on to another note its clear that shinn is most likely gonna be the bad guy i doubt he will join the AA its makes no sense for him to join that ship and i doubt they can change him in these last 16 episodes. finally Shinn can not and will never be able to defeat kira the supreme mobile suit pilot his only rival is asuran
labelling Shinn as becoming a bad guy i can understand
but somewhat stating that the AA and it's crew are the "good guys" i don't agree too
because the things they've done resulted in alot of people getting killed and that's just not something "good guys" typicaly do right?
but in the end it's all a matter of opinion

[chitgoks]

shinn was in berserk seed mode while kira was just in normal seed mode.

[Dannynonsense]

Originally posted by: Motteh
i agree that the disconnection dodge move Shinn pulled along with the shield reflecting shot was really awesome
especially since it looked like Kira intended to strike his cockpit when he dodge it by disconnecting his suit
so it shows that Shinn really has skill to back his attidude (which i find refreshing)



Originally posted by: ch4kz
but really I don;'t actually hate shinn I jsut don't agree with what the director did, to many holes
well Seed itself ended literally being mostly holes
alot of issues were left undiscussed and unexplained
and those 2 episodes where Rau made his plans known to Kira and Mwu simply added more holes and thus confusion but i find that to be a factor that kept drawing me back to Seed and now to Destiny
i want to fill up those holes if possible



Originally posted by: Dannynonsense
the battle between kira and shinn is over for now the next battle is the smacking that asuran is gonna give shinn. but on to another note its clear that shinn is most likely gonna be the bad guy i doubt he will join the AA its makes no sense for him to join that ship and i doubt they can change him in these last 16 episodes. finally Shinn can not and will never be able to defeat kira the supreme mobile suit pilot his only rival is asuran
labelling Shinn as becoming a bad guy i can understand
but somewhat stating that the AA and it's crew are the "good guys" i don't agree too
because the things they've done resulted in alot of people getting killed and that's just not something "good guys" typicaly do right?
but in the end it's all a matter of opinion

well then who would you consider as the good guys of the story did you forget that Zaft and EAF are fighting for their own gain not because of what they so call claim

[darkshadow]

chitgoks, plz dont bring up that "there are 2 seed modes", discussion, cause actually there isnt a thing as a seed mode, its called berserk mode, the "Seed" is a different thing

[Board of Command]

Originally posted by: Roko
alrite..for all you Shinn hater out there, I got this from Seed Genesis (courtesy of Genesis on page 3 of the comments section):
1 (http://img287.echo.cx/my.php?image=cat33dm1eo.jpg)
2 (http://img287.echo.cx/my.php?image=11175449041107al.jpg)
3 (http://img287.echo.cx/my.php?image=11185018050411sn.jpg)
Genius, especially the Rakushun one.

[heero]

Originally posted by: Motteh
i agree that the disconnection dodge move Shinn pulled along with the shield reflecting shot was really awesome
especially since it looked like Kira intended to strike his cockpit when he dodge it by disconnecting his suit
so it shows that Shinn really has skill to back his attidude (which i find refreshing)


Ya thanks for bringing that disconnection dodge up when Kira tried to hit the cockpit because many ppl said Kira lost because he didn't even try to kill Shinn. Well as you can see he did eventually but did not succeed.



Originally posted by: Dannynonsense

well then who would you consider as the good guys of the story did you forget that Zaft and EAF are fighting for their own gain not because of what they so call claim

You should know that the story is based on a war and when it comes to wars it's hard to draw lines between good and evil. Basically anyone who is fighting in a war has killed someone eventually. And it's not even clear what Dullindal's intentions are so far. The only clear cut bad guy would probably be that purple lips guy from the Logos. And the clear cut good guys are probably the AA crew since the story made them look like the saviors of the world. The rest of the ppl are more on the grayish area.

[Curium]

Originally posted by: heero


Originally posted by: Motteh
i agree that the disconnection dodge move Shinn pulled along with the shield reflecting shot was really awesome
especially since it looked like Kira intended to strike his cockpit when he dodge it by disconnecting his suit
so it shows that Shinn really has skill to back his attidude (which i find refreshing)


Ya thanks for bringing that disconnection dodge up when Kira tried to hit the cockpit because many ppl said Kira lost because he didn't even try to kill Shinn. Well as you can see he did eventually but did not succeed.


He wasn't aiming for the cockpit. He was aiming for the legs, but when Shinn seperated, the gap the beam saber went through makes it look like he tried it. If you pause right before it seperates and put your finger where the seperation line is, once you hit play you can see that the swing by Kira was below where the connection point is, thus below the cockpit.

[Guardian_2000]

Originally posted by: darkshadow
chitgoks, plz dont bring up that "there are 2 seed modes", discussion, cause actually there isnt a thing as a seed mode, its called berserk mode, the "Seed" is a different thing

There are two seed modes rewatch Seed and the animations. There are two seperate types of going seed. There is the beserk SEED mode. And then the more controlled SEED mode that kira shows where he is more calm and collected. Can't get technical on the differences but there definately seems to be a difference of control. If you dont want to call it two different modes call it two different states of being. There is the initial entering of seed mode through emotional pain and loss where you have little control as your emotionally driven. Kill people when you don't fully intend to. Then there is the state you enter of your own will where you seem to be more level headed and what not.

Sorry this got really long but there are alot of people butting heads over who is better.

It looks like some people still are argueing over who is a better pilot between Shinn and Kira? Why is this? Kira is established throughout SEED as to be the Ultimate Coordinator. His abilities rival anything that was allowed to be reengineered. His genetics are flawless having been born in an artificial womb where no anomalies that normally occur could affect his development. The only one that is gonna come close to him in piloting is Canard Pars. Capabilities wise he is your best bet at Kira's equal followed by Athrun who was the after product of all the stuff they did in the ultimate coordinator project that they felt was safe to apply and would hold a benefit.

I doubt the increased spatial awareness "newtype abilities" will show up in Athrun thou.

But anyways I'd like to hear why someone thinks Shinn is a better pilot. For one him beating Kira doesn't make him a better pilot. Just like me kicking any of your asses in a FPS by using health and armor cheatcodes means I'm better. You could of Stuck Rey or Mwu/Neo in Impulse and the outcome would of been the same. You could of stuck Shinn in Justice and he would of lost to Kira. Impulse and its capability to in essence regenerate from damage and Kira's no kill policy is the reason Shinn won.

I'll again give props to Shinn he pulled it off masterfully. The tactics he used were fricken brilliant. Best strategic fight I've seen yet in Gundam. But it was the cheapest ass thing in the world. But hey its a war and in that anything goes. Just don't give me crap saying that Shinn > Kira in piloting. I'm tired of reading these misinformed posts throughout this thread saying its not cheap and that Shinn is stronger than Kira and better. Kira wasn't even really paying attention to Shinn till Shinn went SEED. I mean he would do alil dodge here and there but he actually had time to send a text message to the Archangel for it to leave and goto ORB with cagalli. Come on. Shinn is good and keeps getting better but hes still not upto snuff yet. Hopefully thou now with a better suit he will reach a higher potential.

I keep envisioning Shinn launching and expecting Kira to just aim for the arms and head like Rey said then Kira deciding that hes tired of being delayed by this guy. He keeps getting in my way like Athrun and just bam shooting Impulse with everything instead of holding back and sticking to his guns with the no kill policy. He did what he set out to thou. He was escort and AA got away safely with Cagalli from the looks of things. They were well into the water by the time the gun fired. The more I watch that last scene the more it looks like Kira may have intended to take that last hit. He specifically took out Impulse's head. Why did he want to take out Shinn's main camera? Does he eject or was he covering for AA again. With his last action he prevented the AA from pursuing AA since Impulse was slagged.

[Curium]

SEED mode and "berserk" SEED mode are the same thing. The ONLY differance is the emotional state of the person that entered SEED mode.

[LokeXero]

Originally posted by: Curium
SEED mode and "berserk" SEED mode are the same thing. The ONLY differance is the emotional state of the person that entered SEED mode.

I agree...i think the difference would be Kira/Seed has a Greater awareness to his surroundings than Shinn/BerserkerSeed who is only focused on Killing Kira/Revenge...

[xat]

Originally posted by: Guardian_2000
But anyways I'd like to hear why someone thinks Shinn is a better pilot. For one him beating Kira doesn't make him a better pilot. Just like me kicking any of your asses in a FPS by using health and armor cheatcodes means I'm better. You could of Stuck Rey or Mwu/Neo in Impulse and the outcome would of been the same. You could of stuck Shinn in Justice and he would of lost to Kira. Impulse and its capability to in essence regenerate from damage and Kira's no kill policy is the reason Shinn won.

I'll again give props to Shinn he pulled it off masterfully. The tactics he used were fricken brilliant. Best strategic fight I've seen yet in Gundam. But it was the cheapest ass thing in the world. But hey its a war and in that anything goes. Just don't give me crap saying that Shinn > Kira in piloting. I'm tired of reading these misinformed posts throughout this thread saying its not cheap and that Shinn is stronger than Kira and better. Kira wasn't even really paying attention to Shinn till Shinn went SEED. I mean he would do alil dodge here and there but he actually had time to send a text message to the Archangel for it to leave and goto ORB with cagalli. Come on. Shinn is good and keeps getting better but hes still not upto snuff yet. Hopefully thou now with a better suit he will reach a higher potential.

I keep envisioning Shinn launching and expecting Kira to just aim for the arms and head like Rey said then Kira deciding that hes tired of being delayed by this guy. He keeps getting in my way like Athrun and just bam shooting Impulse with everything instead of holding back and sticking to his guns with the no kill policy. He did what he set out to thou. He was escort and AA got away safely with Cagalli from the looks of things. They were well into the water by the time the gun fired. The more I watch that last scene the more it looks like Kira may have intended to take that last hit. He specifically took out Impulse's head. Why did he want to take out Shinn's main camera? Does he eject or was he covering for AA again. With his last action he prevented the AA from pursuing AA since Impulse was slagged.

QFE. Well said.

[antoine]

well said except for the last sentence lol! i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

[Dannynonsense]

[quote]
Originally posted by: Guardian_2000
[quote]
Originally posted by: darkshadow

It looks like some people still are argueing over who is a better pilot between Shinn and Kira? Why is this? Kira is established throughout SEED as to be the Ultimate Coordinator. His abilities rival anything that was allowed to be reengineered. His genetics are flawless having been born in an artificial womb where no anomalies that normally occur could affect his development. The only one that is gonna come close to him in piloting is Canard Pars. Capabilities wise he is your best bet at Kira's equal followed by Athrun who was the after product of all the stuff they did in the ultimate coordinator project that they felt was safe to apply and would hold a benefit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------


finally someone who knows about Canard Pars isnt he kira's brother also what do you mean by Asuran being the after product of all the stuff from the ultimate coordinator project

[qilinkiddo]

Originally posted by: Guardian_2000
I keep envisioning Shinn launching and expecting Kira to just aim for the arms and head like Rey said then Kira deciding that hes tired of being delayed by this guy. He keeps getting in my way like Athrun and just bam shooting Impulse with everything instead of holding back and sticking to his guns with the no kill policy. He did what he set out to thou. He was escort and AA got away safely with Cagalli from the looks of things. They were well into the water by the time the gun fired. The more I watch that last scene the more it looks like Kira may have intended to take that last hit. He specifically took out Impulse's head. Why did he want to take out Shinn's main camera? Does he eject or was he covering for AA again. With his last action he prevented the AA from pursuing AA since Impulse was slagged.

but then even after shinn gone seed mode...kira is still sticking to the no-kill policy aint he?

[iesu 350z]

LOL you know this has always been on my mind.. what if you kira used his shield or some sorta of mirror to reflect those beams that allow the impluse to attach itself.. lmao make the arm go into the leg slot leg into head etc :3

anyways shinn was avoiding the inveitable.. pft trying to save stellar? she cant even live without the dome thing she recharges in, shes bound to die, but i was laughing when shinn dropped stellar into the lake LOL boy was that amusing, this is how i saw it... she isnt DEAD yet.. shinn just dropped her into the water knowing she CAnnot swim, then realizing that she is still alive when her arms reach upwards LOL, and in his head "OH SHIT shes ALIVE!! I DIDNT KILL HER IT WAS KIRA! KIRA THAt bastard i'll get revenge!!"

shinn and athrun looks like they have snapped..

[PSJ]

yes he didnt say otherwise. as for kira taking out shinns camera i think that would be to give him and the AA a window to escape, he wanted to take that last hit, that was for sure. only thing im wondering about is how that big ass sword can go through a shield while a normal beam sabre cant?

[Motteh]

Originally posted by: PSJ
only thing im wondering about is how that big ass sword can go through a shield while a normal beam sabre cant?

been wondering about that as well
maybe because the tip of the sword that first penetrated the shield wasn't a beam i think so maybe the substance sword tip (you know what i mean) went through the shield?
since phase armor is good against substance hits like swords and missiles but weak to beams and the shield maybe is otherwise?

[qilinkiddo]

the side of the sword have something pink colour...izzit it that cause the shield to be penetrated?

i watch the last hit by kira frame by frame...seem like he was aimming under the cock pit

[PSJ]

the pink on the sword is the same stuff as a beam sabre. and it would be a sucky shield if it couldnt take a hit from something that isnt a beam sabre or shot.

[FelixZeroAlastor]

The shield was penetrated cause Shinn flew full speed at Kira. Kira just happened to look away at the wrong time and didn't parry it.

[romancing_xaga]

Originally posted by: FelixZeroAlastor
The shield was penetrated cause Shinn flew full speed at Kira. Kira just happened to look away at the wrong time and didn't parry it.

unless his beam cannons were damaged, he shouldn've used it instead of the shield.

[PSJ]

well if that shield got penetrated like that shinn must have found a surface that was straight and didnt have any angles at all, if the shield would have been a little angled shinn would have just slided off.

[Jurojin]

When Shinn struck Kira's shield, he first hit with the tip- because of the extreme speed he was flying, it created an incredible amount of force at ONE point, the point of contact. Shinn basically turned himself into a Gundam sized armor piercing round.

[MeroTZ]

If the sword was denser than the shield, the sword would have ripped through like tissue paper.... how it then penetrated PS armor with non-beam stuff is beyond me, the only other example of that I can think of is where Kira shivved Yzak back near the begginning of SEED.

Oh well.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: iesu 350z
anyways shinn was avoiding the inveitable.. pft trying to save stellar? she cant even live without the dome thing she recharges in, shes bound to die, but i was laughing when shinn dropped stellar into the lake LOL boy was that amusing, this is how i saw it... she isnt DEAD yet.. shinn just dropped her into the water knowing she CAnnot swim, then realizing that she is still alive when her arms reach upwards LOL, and in his head "OH SHIT shes ALIVE!! I DIDNT KILL HER IT WAS KIRA! KIRA THAt bastard i'll get revenge!!"

This is by far the best explination of how Stellar died that I have heard i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif That and it made me laugh.



Originally posted by: Jurojin
When Shinn struck Kira's shield, he first hit with the tip- because of the extreme speed he was flying, it created an incredible amount of force at ONE point, the point of contact. Shinn basically turned himself into a Gundam sized armor piercing round.

Shinn's sword piercing both the shield and the phase shift armor on its own was about as likely as him reflecting a shot from the beam riffle off of his own shield which disperses beams and melting the shoulder of freedom. Oh and also as likely as Kira never using his rail guns or wing cannons. Having now seen the subbed version of this episode I definatly feel that Kira was making it so Shinn would believe he won. Kira and the AA were aiming specifically to do as little damage as possible so Zaft would have no excuse or footage to call them a enemy. Freedom on the otherhand had already disabled several suits and thus Zaft would have footage of it "attacking them" if they needed it from the Minerva's logs anyway. So whats the best thing for Kira to do. After watching a major blast from the Minerva's main cannon he disabled Shinn's Sensors and fled into the water after allowing the sword to pierce Freedom in a noncritical location.

Also note Shinn definatly did some damage and Kira was having difficulty ignoring him however Shinn never really had the advantage in this fight. Kira cutting off the head and arm of the chest flyer was always with the intention if disabling Shinn's sensors so the AA could escape into the ocean. In the end he took the sword into his suit to get a sure fire hit on the head of Impulse making it unable to dodge or swing the sword to make a more critical hit on Freedom.

[DragonBladeX]

Its seems that Phase-Shift is not as all powerful as it was thought to be....Yzak's Duel took a beating just from 2 puny daggers in GS....you think that with nuclear energy powering Freedom's PS making it infinite PS, the blow would have been lessened...though i would agree with Impulse throwing its whole weight behind that one strike, no armour can hold up to that kind of pressure

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: DDBen


Originally posted by: iesu 350z
anyways shinn was avoiding the inveitable.. pft trying to save stellar? she cant even live without the dome thing she recharges in, shes bound to die, but i was laughing when shinn dropped stellar into the lake LOL boy was that amusing, this is how i saw it... she isnt DEAD yet.. shinn just dropped her into the water knowing she CAnnot swim, then realizing that she is still alive when her arms reach upwards LOL, and in his head "OH SHIT shes ALIVE!! I DIDNT KILL HER IT WAS KIRA! KIRA THAt bastard i'll get revenge!!"

This is by far the best explination of how Stellar died that I have heard That and it made me laugh.



Originally posted by: Jurojin
When Shinn struck Kira's shield, he first hit with the tip- because of the extreme speed he was flying, it created an incredible amount of force at ONE point, the point of contact. Shinn basically turned himself into a Gundam sized armor piercing round.

Shinn's sword piercing both the shield and the phase shift armor on its own was about as likely as him reflecting a shot from the beam riffle off of his own shield which disperses beams and melting the shoulder of freedom. Oh and also as likely as Kira never using his rail guns or wing cannons. Having now seen the subbed version of this episode I definatly feel that Kira was making it so Shinn would believe he won. Kira and the AA were aiming specifically to do as little damage as possible so Zaft would have no excuse or footage to call them a enemy. Freedom on the otherhand had already disabled several suits and thus Zaft would have footage of it "attacking them" if they needed it from the Minerva's logs anyway. So whats the best thing for Kira to do. After watching a major blast from the Minerva's main cannon he disabled Shinn's Sensors and fled into the water after allowing the sword to pierce Freedom in a noncritical location.

Also note Shinn definatly did some damage and Kira was having difficulty ignoring him however Shinn never really had the advantage in this fight. Kira cutting off the head and arm of the chest flyer was always with the intention if disabling Shinn's sensors so the AA could escape into the ocean. In the end he took the sword into his suit to get a sure fire hit on the head of Impulse making it unable to dodge or swing the sword to make a more critical hit on Freedom.


Wow, I really like this idea. And its makes sense, too. I dont think Kira intended to take quite that hard a hit (he looked a bit panicked) I agree his priority was taking out Impulses main camera... and we see absolutely nothing to show that Freedom didn't just let it self sink down into the ocean, where the AA would now be free to recover what was left. I doubt we are going to have to worry about Kira very long this time around, hopefully the next episode will show him being recovered.

All in all though, I like what you are implying. AA and Freedom "faking their deaths" so they can get back safely to Orb.

[qilinkiddo]

AA fake their death too fake lolz...
while escaping AA did not even fire a single shot to minerva -_-

[PSJ]

erm you do know that the big explosion was from freedom blowing up right? there is nothing left of freedom, at least not much a few scraps here and there maybe, not more. i still think kira survived, the guy is immortal, i mean he managed to survive when asuran self ddestructed in kiras face(there was a cut in strikes armor right where the cockpit is.)

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: qilinkiddo
AA fake their death too fake lolz...
while escaping AA did not even fire a single shot to minerva -_-

Please rewatch the episode the AA was firing only to miss the Minerva as it was specifically avoiding giving zaft anything to use for PR purposes saying that the AA is a threat as atleast some people likely still see it in a good light after the last war.



Originally posted by: PSJ
erm you do know that the big explosion was from freedom blowing up right? there is nothing left of freedom, at least not much a few scraps here and there maybe, not more. i still think kira survived, the guy is immortal, i mean he managed to survive when asuran self ddestructed in kiras face(there was a cut in strikes armor right where the cockpit is.)

The explosion was NOT Freedom. The reaction was from the positron cannon on Minerva reacting with the water. The initial Puff of smoke is the blast nearing the water and the second ball shape explosion was from it hitting either the ocean floor or the AA. The bits of Freedom were in no way enough to account for the entire mech and had Kira blown up with Freedom causing any sort of Nuclear explosion then there would be absolutely nothing left of Impulse which was ontop of the explosion missing its head leaving a gaping hole in its Phaseshift armor.

[DragonBladeX]

He even manages to survive a GENESIS beam shot in GS, with Freedom heavily damaged by Providence....he'll be back for sure

[qilinkiddo]

abt this explosion alot of people keep debuting is it caused by freedom or minerva -_-''
but i dun think its from the freedom coz it would be too big...

[qilinkiddo]

he never did survive the genesis shot...
it never even hit him...freedom fly up before it could hit freedom

[DragonBladeX]

This episode seems a bit ambigious(pardon me if i spelled that incorrectly) in whether Freedom did explode or not, because after the moment shown between kira and shinn when Freedom was impaled, the blast is shown buffering the Minerva. One could say the blast was Tannhauser striking the water followed by an enormous blast would be the most logical answer here...there might have been some secondary explosions in the blast( a small one) of the Freedom exploding which explains Impulse badly damaged state. That at least rules out that Freedom could have just fell into the ocean with the beam sword stuck in it. And can some one explain why are the pieces of mecha located behind shinn after the explosion?

Edit: Hmm...yah i think i was wrong there....he survived the genesis self-destruction more likely.....

[qilinkiddo]

mayb its the pieces where impulse huge fat sword hit the body of the freedom and shield =p

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: DDBen


Originally posted by: qilinkiddo
AA fake their death too fake lolz...
while escaping AA did not even fire a single shot to minerva -_-

Please rewatch the episode the AA was firing only to miss the Minerva as it was specifically avoiding giving zaft anything to use for PR purposes saying that the AA is a threat as atleast some people likely still see it in a good light after the last war.



Originally posted by: PSJ
erm you do know that the big explosion was from freedom blowing up right? there is nothing left of freedom, at least not much a few scraps here and there maybe, not more. i still think kira survived, the guy is immortal, i mean he managed to survive when asuran self ddestructed in kiras face(there was a cut in strikes armor right where the cockpit is.)

The explosion was NOT Freedom. The reaction was from the positron cannon on Minerva reacting with the water. The initial Puff of smoke is the blast nearing the water and the second ball shape explosion was from it hitting either the ocean floor or the AA. The bits of Freedom were in no way enough to account for the entire mech and had Kira blown up with Freedom causing any sort of Nuclear explosion then there would be absolutely nothing left of Impulse which was ontop of the explosion missing its head leaving a gaping hole in its Phaseshift armor.


Thanks for the support. Also, lets not forget we know exactly what Nuclear explosions look like in the SEED universe. Go rewatch... episode 9 I think it is. Or the end of SEED.

Nukes look like giant balls of white light, highlighted with whatever color explosion they are using for the day (they were pink in space).

The explosion we saw here was the conventional 'fiery' explosion, which is produced by the tanhauser, and also by the lohengrin positron cannon. So couldn't be a nuke.

EDIT: yes, I dont get why people keep asking where the debris in the water came from. It came from the exchange of blows between Freedom and Impulse at the end. Freedom was impaled by the sword (and prolly dragged the sword and Impulses arms into the ocean with it... remember, phsyics says that there was as much force on Impulse as it hit Freedom with...) and Impulse had its head stabbed by a beam saber. The reason the debris is behind Impulse is because of the nature of water. Things float.

[Jurojin]

Just a thought on the shield penetration thing: I don't think the arm held shields have PS on them, but instead have anti-beam coating. The reason I say this is in just about every fight, the shield blocks beam sabers, and beam rifle rounds, no problem, even the higher caliber beam weaponry (Calamity grade stuff). However, if you recall the Justice/Raider fight, Athrun's shield got dented and bashed up pretty badly from Raider's Morningstar-like weapon. So Freedom's shield getting pierced by Shinn's anti-ship sword is more possible.

However, on PS armor, every time a direct hit is scored with beam weaponry, limbs and bits go flying- how many times did Duel lose a leg b/c of Kira? Saviour had PS, and got sliced up by beam sabers. Etc.

PS armor was more designed to stop the Djinn's main weaponry (which was ZAFT's staple suit when PS was being developed), being their swords and rifles, which it did a pretty good job on. PS armor hasn't really had any large improvements either, though the TPS was more energy efficient. Slashing and blunt force never got through PS armor, but piercing attacks (which is anything with a lot of force at one concentrated point) does go through. Which is exactly what we have here, nuke-powered PS or not.

[Terracosmo]

@DDBen, for the sake of variety:
"However, Terra I'm afraid that Shinn does enjoy killing to a certain degree. He certainly doesn't kill to protect anything instead he kills out of vengence every time."

Killing out of vengeance does NOT equal that someone ENJOYS killing.

[DragonBladeX]

If there was an explosion, should'nt the pieces be scattered all over the ocean as opposed to just behind Impulse? Unless its the artist perception drawing or something showing only nearby objects while negating the far...

[qilinkiddo]

oic just saw that AA fire its missiles but all miss...
did AA did that on purposes...only watch the raw by now...
dont know what they have been talking =x

[DragonBladeX]

It was on purpose....Glady mentions after the near miss as long as they don't get careless they won't get hit. And adds as expected AA was trying not to hit them.

[qilinkiddo]

lolz i was waiting for the website which i normally to download the subbed episode...
still haven come out yet...bored ~_~

[Jurojin]

@DDBen: Seriously, I think you just don't want to admit that Kira got honestly beaten by Shinn. Before this episode, it was "Kira can't be beaten by Shinn, it must be Neo/Mwu because Neo is expendable" which was very implausible from the beginning to say the least. Now, Kira was overwhelmed with both the AA's situation, and Shinn's intensity, and all you can think to do is say "Kira let Shinn beat him." The Kira worship is really getting kind of sad.....

Anyways, I had a question- is it normal for Minerva to turn immediately after firing the Taunhueser(spl)? Because if I recall correctly, the blast from the explosion that seems to be confusing people caught the Minerva on the side, not from the front. So is it possible that the explosion (not saying it was nuclear or anything) was indeed from Freedom? (if it cam at Minerva from the front, please correct me, I'm at work so I can't double check.)

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
@DDBen, for the sake of variety:
"However, Terra I'm afraid that Shinn does enjoy killing to a certain degree. He certainly doesn't kill to protect anything instead he kills out of vengence every time."

Killing out of vengeance does NOT equal that someone ENJOYS killing.

Correct Terra killing only for the reason of vengence would not mean you enjoy Killing. However killing because you enjoy what it grants you. Specifically in Shinn's case things like killing the EA soldiers in the base that was already defeated in order to play hero. Does to a certain degree show that you enjoy killing because you will soon start to equate killing people with the perks it grants you.



Originally posted by: Jurojin
@DDBen: Seriously, I think you just don't want to admit that Kira got honestly beaten by Shinn. Before this episode, it was "Kira can't be beaten by Shinn, it must be Neo/Mwu because Neo is expendable" which was very implausible from the beginning to say the least. Now, Kira was overwhelmed with both the AA's situation, and Shinn's intensity, and all you can think to do is say "Kira let Shinn beat him." The Kira worship is really getting kind of sad.....

Anyways, I had a question- is it normal for Minerva to turn immediately after firing the Taunhueser(spl)? Because if I recall correctly, the blast from the explosion that seems to be confusing people caught the Minerva on the side, not from the front. So is it possible that the explosion (not saying it was nuclear or anything) was indeed from Freedom? (if it cam at Minerva from the front, please correct me, I'm at work so I can't double check.)

Jurojin you are completely incorrect here. Before I stated that if Freedom was destroyed or to be sacrificed in order for the AA to escape that it was simply much more likely for them to kill off Neo then it would be for them to Kill off Kira. So I stated that IF freedom was destroyed and the pilot was killed that it would only happen IF Neo was piloting Freedom and not Kira.

That aside I don't whorship Freedom I mearly am analysing the episode as I see it. We know Shinn is alive at this point and I certainly believe its common sense that Kira, who is extremely popular, would not randomly be killed off at this point in the series as it would simply destroy the ratings of GSD to kill him. That being said with the question being placed about what took place here please note that Kira did not use 80% of freedoms weapons only using the beam rifle and a single beam saber throughout the episode. When in turn watching this episode why would he do this? He could have simply shot impulse to hell but following Dullindales tape showing Impulse instead of freedom taking down destroy if he was to kill Impulse that would put AA in MUCH greater danger. However, If you were to let zaft put out a tape of Impulse destroying freedom it makes the AA much less likely to be hunted as Zaft can simply use that to there advantage while you bide your time.

The simple fact that you have no ability to look beyond what they show you in a episode shows nothing but your own personal ignorance.

Now as for your Question the Minerva had started to turn likely because they were aware of the secondary blast that would be comming. So turning the ship to the side and letting the wave carry you away from the blast is a much better solution then driving into the blast radius of your own cannon.

[iesu 350z]

[quote]
Originally posted by: Jurojin
@DDBen: Seriously, I think you just don't want to admit that Kira got honestly beaten by Shinn. Before this episode, it was "Kira can't be beaten by Shinn, it must be Neo/Mwu because Neo is expendable" which was very implausible from the beginning to say the least. Now, Kira was overwhelmed with both the AA's situation, and Shinn's intensity, and all you can think to do is say "Kira let Shinn beat him." The Kira worship is really getting kind of sad.....


i totally disagree with you, DDBen's responses contain more insight.. he only stated his opinions and backed it up, i dont see him saying hes a kira freak anywhere

also I disgree with your qoute,

In all things endure.
In enduring, grow strong

in most situations it will cause great mental stress leading to insanity
and i think bad sentence structure? no?

[PSJ]

the tannhauser explosion would have to hit the AA to make an explosion of that size. and the AA was well under the water by the time the tannhauser reached there. one more thing, it was to late to be the tannhauser explosion, it would have fired by the time impulse impaled freedom. im still convinced it was freedom blowing up. the suit got a nuclear reactor, if that didnt give off any kind of blast after being totally destroyed it wouldnt be fucking nuclear.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: PSJ
the tannhauser explosion would have to hit the AA to make an explosion of that size. and the AA was well under the water by the time the tannhauser reached there. one more thing, it was to late to be the tannhauser explosion, it would have fired by the time impulse impaled freedom. im still convinced it was freedom blowing up. the suit got a nuclear reactor, if that didnt give off any kind of blast after being totally destroyed it wouldnt be fucking nuclear.

This would depend completely on timing we are watching the Shinn/Kira battle at the same point in time as Minerva is shooting at the AA there is honestly no way to determine when the shot was fired in relation to when Kira and Shinn took that final swing at each other. Except of course the red trail from the Tannhauser that is disapating as the Minerva turns and gets hit by the wave from the explosion.

Basically what I'm saying is both of these happen at the same exact moment so there is not really a delay between the 2 explosions one is mearly shown as they have to show you both fights being resolved before they show the explosion.

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: PSJ
the tannhauser explosion would have to hit the AA to make an explosion of that size. and the AA was well under the water by the time the tannhauser reached there. one more thing, it was to late to be the tannhauser explosion, it would have fired by the time impulse impaled freedom. im still convinced it was freedom blowing up. the suit got a nuclear reactor, if that didnt give off any kind of blast after being totally destroyed it wouldnt be fucking nuclear.

First and foremost, nuclear reactors ARE NOT NUCLEAR BOMBS. If you wanted to rig one to explode, you would have to very specifically set it up to do such, and then intentionally trigger it. A triggering event would certainly not be something like being struck by a giant sword. Even if a reactor melts down, which you might get away with here, all you get is a lot of heat and radiation. Not an explosion.

Second, the Tanhauser is a Positron cannon. The first small explosion (as stated earlier) was it hitting the water... the second, most likely, was it impacting the ocean floor. Not only was it not shown hitting the AA, but from Talia's previous attitude, there is no evidence she intended for that shot to hit it. She could have been delaying to make sure the chance of hitting was very small. As for it not doing enough damage to cause that kind of explosion... have you not been paying attention? They used that same cannon to break up a colony. In the "attack the lohengrin" episode, we see a positron cannon take out an entire Zaft attack force in one shot.

That explosion was not too big for the Tanhauser, not by a long shot.

[Jurojin]

@DDBen: All I have to say to you is that you have constantly presented yourself as one who believes that Kira is infallable when compared to Shinn as a pilot, and constantly form very half baked opinions on both Shinn's character, and possibilties in the show. You refuse to acknowledge Shinn in the same leauge of piloting as Rau/Athrun/Kira/Mwu etc, and that skews every attempt of a hypothisis in relation to Kira vs. Shinn.


@iesu 350z: He's making these opinions on the belief that he's stated before that Shinn just can't possibly beat Kira. In the episode33 thread that got deleted, you'd see it for yourself. As for my quote, what the hell are you talking about?

[Aramis]

Good episode, but nothing is set in stone. Archangel probably made it...next episode might show them trying to survive with the damage they took and depth charging ordered by that fat ass zaft general...
Kira's suit went into pieces. if there's still an intact part of it left, it will sink...so he has to go floating in the ocean. He could have survived his suit's core meltdown too, coordinators are like super humans so you'd think they were resistant to radiation maybe? Or maybe he'll get a radiation illness and live for a week or so. More drama.
Anyway props to Shinn for a good fight i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif there's probably no one else that could have done it.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Jurojin
@DDBen: All I have to say to you is that you have constantly presented yourself as one who believes that Kira is infallable when compared to Shinn as a pilot, and constantly form very half baked opinions on both Shinn's character, and possibilties in the show. You refuse to acknowledge Shinn in the same leauge of piloting as Rau/Athrun/Kira/Mwu etc, and that skews every attempt of a hypothisis in relation to Kira vs. Shinn.


@iesu 350z: He's making these opinions on the belief that he's stated before that Shinn just can't possibly beat Kira. In the episode33 thread that got deleted, you'd see it for yourself. As for my quote, what the hell are you talking about?


Once again you are quite mistaken on my comments. However I will say this. If you have a extremely successful series such as GS and the Main Character in it who was Kira. Then you have many supporting Characters. The only other character who could be argueably a main character is Athrun as they focused a lot of the story on him as well. Now you make a sequal to the series and you decide to do this after you have basically placed both of these character in situations of living happily ever after(this is shown in the shorts that thye made of the GS characters that took place before GSD was even to be made). Now when making the sequal its unreasonable to then start killing off either of the 2 main characters from the first series who were both very well liked(heck they went as far as to create Neo as a result of killing Mwu being so unpopular I suspect). As such I do not believe when we have confirmed suits that EVERYONE knows about aka Strike Freedom and Infinate Justice that are clearly ment for the 2 main characters from the first series that any director would ever kill off either of these characters before at the very least the last 2 episodes of the series. As a direct result to those facts at this point I see no reasonable way the writers could or would kill off Kira. This results in the fact I believed that IF Freedom was to be destroyed to the point that zaft was convinced it was gone this would either result in another pilot(Neo being the only person on the AA capable of fighting at even a remotely convincing level to that of Kira). So you in turn with this episode have the AA trying to get away without giving Zaft what it wants(which is a excuse to further hunt either the AA or go after Orb(as the pilots from Orb on the AA would make wonderful press for invading the country). This leaves the solution of faking your own death and considering the Captain of the Minerva was also against destroying the AA which we saw absolutely no wreckage for after either blast(so it being hit is made severly unlikely). This in turn results in the fact that as Kira, who is undeniably a increadable pilot at this point, is very unlikely to have freedom destroyed in the manor it was portrayed.

This results in 2 possibilities in my eye's.
1: That the writers have officially decided that Kira has to go and are willing to kill him off in order to make Shinn more popular.
2: The writers wanted to make the AA and Zaft fight seem to be taken care of so they could further the storyline and introduce the new MS's in order to sell more models. The only reason Kira would get a better suit is because he was defeated in freedom. We already know Kira is getting Strike Freedom and if anyone thinks thats a spoiler I'm sorry but to me this is a fact that has been displayed in the series. Unless of course you think Calgari is getting Strike freedom to avenge her brother. So what better thing to do then have Kira fake his death, as done in GS where it wasn't so much faked but after the Athrun/Kira battle he was picked up by Lacus and given Freedom to replace strike. Thus utalizing something you already know your viewers will accept.

To me this doesn't even involve Shinn who at this point is doing nothing but acting completely insane at the moment. I don't disagree that they are depicting him as getting more skillful. I more of see this episode as showing that he's reached the limits of Impulse being useful to him as he's mastered it and it no longer would allow his skills to grow. In doing this they reasonably are able to introduce Destiny which Shinn will be piloting as this is GSD(estiny) and he is the main character. Right now the remaining part of the series is going to be about setting up the final battles and defining where each of the main and sub characters will stand in the final battle.

[romancing_xaga]

Shinn is already popular. It's just people has been attached to Kira's "main character" view that they block their view on Shinn's role, therefore unable to recognise him as the main character and treat him as an anti-hero, more on as an antagonist. Others who say that he's evil and all of that crap shows how unjust their feelings toward him and Kira. With Freedom's destruction, the others perhaps hated Shinn even more, and some liked him even more.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: romancing_xaga
Shinn is already popular. It's just people has been attached to Kira's "main character" view that they block their view on Shinn's role, therefore unable to recognise him as the main character and treat him as an anti-hero, more on as an antagonist. Others who say that he's evil and all of that crap shows how unjust their feelings toward him and Kira. With Freedom's destruction, the others perhaps hated Shinn even more, and some liked him even more.

When introduced Shinn was really shown as a character who lost everything due to war. At this point in the series most people saw him as a possible hero in the series and yes shinn is absolutely a main character I have never argued this. However, as the series progresses Shinn's actions become more and more disagreeable for the average viewer this is clearly how he is written showing him slowly sinking into a quagmire losing any sense of justice he may have once stood for. The net result is people are going to dislike him more and more on a personal level. I don't personally think he is a badley written character I just happen to feel that he's a slimeball in this anime. A personal dislike or even hatred felt toward a character does not mean that a person can't feel that the character is well designed by the writers. In the end it seems they took a chapter from starwars and made him into Anakin turning into vader. In the end perhaps if he dies he will in turn regain his humanity but at this point even the most avid shinn fan should be able to admit he's been making a misguided fall from grace during this entire series.

[iesu 350z]

Originally posted by: Jurojin
@DDBen: All I have to say to you is that you have constantly presented yourself as one who believes that Kira is infallable when compared to Shinn as a pilot, and constantly form very half baked opinions on both Shinn's character, and possibilties in the show. You refuse to acknowledge Shinn in the same leauge of piloting as Rau/Athrun/Kira/Mwu etc, and that skews every attempt of a hypothisis in relation to Kira vs. Shinn.


@iesu 350z: He's making these opinions on the belief that he's stated before that Shinn just can't possibly beat Kira. In the episode33 thread that got deleted, you'd see it for yourself. As for my quote, what the hell are you talking about?

LOL well kira cannot just die here, he is an important charater that will impact shinn more then anything in the series, if kira dies now the story would just go down hill? probably with a snapped shinn (another stellar) raping everyone! kira needs to come back to give him a good spanking

[iesu 350z]

Originally posted by: DDBen


Originally posted by: romancing_xaga
Shinn is already popular. It's just people has been attached to Kira's "main character" view that they block their view on Shinn's role, therefore unable to recognise him as the main character and treat him as an anti-hero, more on as an antagonist. Others who say that he's evil and all of that crap shows how unjust their feelings toward him and Kira. With Freedom's destruction, the others perhaps hated Shinn even more, and some liked him even more.

When introduced Shinn was really shown as a character who lost everything due to war. At this point in the series most people saw him as a possible hero in the series and yes shinn is absolutely a main character I have never argued this. However, as the series progresses Shinn's actions become more and more disagreeable for the average viewer this is clearly how he is written showing him slowly sinking into a quagmire losing any sense of justice he may have once stood for. The net result is people are going to dislike him more and more on a personal level. I don't personally think he is a badley written character I just happen to feel that he's a slimeball in this anime. A personal dislike or even hatred felt toward a character does not mean that a person can't feel that the character is well designed by the writers. In the end it seems they took a chapter from starwars and made him into Anakin turning into vader. In the end perhaps if he dies he will in turn regain his humanity but at this point even the most avid shinn fan should be able to admit he's been making a misguided fall from grace during this entire series.

shinns role had bad timing and placement, if it were different shinn would be smothered with fan love love~

[Jurojin]

I guess my point is to you that you just won't accept option #3 in this. Which is:

3)Kira was surprised and taken down by Shinn, which totaled Freedom. Kira survives (he's had similar impossible brushes with death) this, and is given Strike Freedom after he recovers. No brilliant tactical maneuvering on Kira's part, none of this "give Kira more uberness."

Even the best of people falter every now and then. Do you forget how Freedom got ripped up by the druggies when he stopped focusing on his enemies, but instead on Fllay's escape pod? Kira has shown to be fallible, and that his concern for his sister and the AA could briefly distract him from Shinn, which allowed the final blow, is a much more real and believable assumption than "he faked it."

Honestly, I like Kira for the person he is, but if the writers just start randomly giving him more abilities out of the blue, I'm going to start hating him. He's fine with the few flaws he has, leave him alone >_<

[ch4kz]

I agree with DDben and jurojin

Kira is def. not dead, there is no evident proof that freedom actually blew up...the parts around impulse are some of freeedom's AND Impulse's PARTs. Impulse is not whole at the end of the ep. Kira is most def. alive. They most likely won't reveal anything relevent about Kira for another two episodes. This will be Athuran's wake up call to reality.

They needed to get rid of Freedom somehow just so Kira could get Strike Freedom. I didn't expect it to happend like this though. I expected Destiny to take out Feedom.

Shinn's role like iesu said above was a t a bad time....
I once looked at shinn as a possible Hero character as well. I used to like him, but his actions make me think oitherwise and I grew to dislike him.Shinn may be popular, but not even close to being as popular as Kira. Plus they both have main character roles. It was already stated by the director that Kira was the main character of GSD and it is obvious that Shinn is as well, but Kira will remain the Hero character of the two main characters of the show...because if you haven't noticed Shinn is going a bit insane. He may come out of it, but there are only 16 eps left...and the last 5 or so will be the final battles not much room for emotional change just hot fights...so technically there will only be like 11 more episodes for Shinn to have a change in mentality. Dullindal is using Shinn and Shinn most lilkely will never realize this because he like worships the guy. Shinn is a main character I agree with you on that, But kira being viewed as a main character also does not block peoples views of Shinn being a main character...because in GS there were TWO main character...so its only fair that in GSD there are TWO...mayb even three if they get athuran to wake up.

sorry for any errors onm spelling ect.

[romancing_xaga]

here we go again..with the technicalities..hahahahaha


If Kira was really to DIE, it shouldn't be like that in ep34. If he really died that way, that will probably leave a question in the series......was it a fluke? hahahahhahaha If he should die, they should at least give him a decent battle.

Anyway, writers should really put some specific explanation regarding small details, such as how one survived an unescapable death. How Kira got new abilities..and so on.

It's interesting what kind of character is Shinn, it seem to contradict what viewers should see on him.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: romancing_xaga
basicly I agree with what your saying....

Good then perhaps you can start actually reading my posts instead of stating they are random Shinn hate i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

[ch4kz]

Ya they reallt should be more clear about what is happening. But if Kira was going to die I would expect them to make it more dramatic and actually show some blood and stuff...plus he had a terrible battle. Shinn rocked him even though it was blahh...Episode 35 should be hot though we will finally get to see some new models in action.

After nex episode i jsut can't wait to see strike freedom in action.

[Vega]

Ok, first I'd like to state that while I like Kira's character better, and I dislike Shinn, I think its a good sign that Shinn actually HAS character if we are capable of hating him (We all know of some characters here and there that were so boring we could have cared less).

Yes, Shinn completely beat Kira. I'm don't want to sound like I'm complaining, since I've agreed with the points made on both sides of the argument. Personally I wouldn't have had it any other way, Kira needed a defeat to make him seem less God Like, I would have just expected Kira to do much more damage to Shinn before the explosion took them both out.

About the explosion, I think it is Curium that I agree with. It is not possible for a sword wound anywhere on the Freedom to cause a nuclear explosion, reactors don't work that way, plus the N-Jammer Cancellers, and all the other points already brought up. I think the explosion was caused by Minerva's Tannhauser. The Tannhauser is a Positron Cannon, and a Positron is the Antimatter form of an Electron. Firing something like that on Earth would be dangerous because even our atmoshpere contains a lot of matter as compared to space where the weapon was meant to be used. The ocean contains a lot of mass, so firing an antimatter beam into it would definately create a sizable explosion, and if you look closely you see the minerva turn away from where they fired the Tannhauser and the explosion comes from that direction and hits them on their side.

[ch4kz]

I agree with that ...but there are a lot of different scenarios that sound realistic. A lot of them have been explained already so there is no point in going into detail....All we know is that kira has a def 95 percent chance to survive...the other 5 percent, who knows the director may just loose it and say lets kill of the most important character in the series. series meaning both GS and GSD

[qilinkiddo]

i agree with that...they have to make it so that kira is less perfect...
cause what kira has been doing in gsd has been flawless...

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Jurojin
I guess my point is to you that you just won't accept option #3 in this. Which is:

3)Kira was surprised and taken down by Shinn, which totaled Freedom. Kira survives (he's had similar impossible brushes with death) this, and is given Strike Freedom after he recovers. No brilliant tactical maneuvering on Kira's part, none of this "give Kira more uberness."

Even the best of people falter every now and then. Do you forget how Freedom got ripped up by the druggies when he stopped focusing on his enemies, but instead on Fllay's escape pod? Kira has shown to be fallible, and that his concern for his sister and the AA could briefly distract him from Shinn, which allowed the final blow, is a much more real and believable assumption than "he faked it."

Honestly, I like Kira for the person he is, but if the writers just start randomly giving him more abilities out of the blue, I'm going to start hating him. He's fine with the few flaws he has, leave him alone >_<


During the battle Shinn absolutely surprized Kira and him losing one of the wings as well as other things he attemped failed because of it. I'm stating a few simple things here. First Kira can not survive and be anywhere but the AA. Kira would need a means of getting to the AA as it was fleeing and he's not exactly about to tell them to turn around and pick him up. Also while freedom did take damage the pile of parts as stated was from both impulse and freedom. I will say I personally mistook that fact I figured they were all parts to freedom but upon rechecking and noticing that there was no debree near impulse its pretty clear its parts from both Mechs. Now for the final bit of obvious evidence. The parts are all in one place right where Impulse and Freedom last clashed. So if the explosion was Freedom then why was impulse barely moved from that spot while the minerva is notably pushed back. Why are the parts still where Impulse and freedom last clashed as any sort of explosion would have clearly sent these parts EVERYWHERE.

[ch4kz]

I know kira is alive, but i think this clash will change Kira somehow wake him up. Because if you watch the beginning of the opening it looks like strike freedom is going for the kill. There is a good chance he may give up his no kill policy. I am not sure he is going for a kill there, but it almsot looks like it.

[Terracosmo]

Originally posted by: DDBen


Originally posted by: romancing_xaga
basicly I agree with what your saying....

Good then perhaps you can start actually reading my posts instead of stating they are random Shinn hate

Well... most if it actually is i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif
You have come up with some really insane & out-of-character Shinn theories, which I can only see you basing on your hate for him.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
You have come up with some really insane & out-of-character Shinn theories, which I can only see you basing on your hate for him.

Oh great Terra enlighten me as to these out of character theories of mine. Things like Mwu sacrificing himself for the AA are so far from out of character they have already happened. So if you wouldn't mind give me a single theory that was out of character for anyone that I've stated.

[PSJ]

well read your own posts and you'll find them.... there are som really weird theories in there.

[Dannynonsense]

about the freedom explosion you guys should stop saying this and that about nuclear eplosions like your world reknowed experts. leave the damn explosion discussion alone because its not like the writers are experts on nuclear explosion there probbaly just adding it to make the battle go out with a bang. not everything has to make sense in a series also didnt alot of you guys say physics doesnt apply in gsd well will find out later in episode 35

[Motteh]

i guess it really is difficult for some people to just agree that maybe Shinn has enough skill to do some damage to Kira
that along side with his brilliant strategy (and yes it was brilliant) and Kira's "i must protect" flaws (if you must call them flaws)
i think it's not more then plain logic that Kira was defeated
true Kira is a remarkable pilot, but Shinn is too
and even the best trip and land on their face atleast once in their life

as for the reactor exploding i have to agree with the fact that a nuclear reactor needs some serious conditions met to explode, and i don't think a "mere" sword strike would be enough reason for it to do so

but most likely we'll find out later in the series exactly what happened (atleast i hope so so this chapter will be closed)

[Guardian_2000]

Once again I come on and still see this thread hasn't moved. Atleast the Shinn/Kira is a better pilot discussion ended. I've come to rain on peoples parade and give new info that some seem to have missed.

Sorry to burst peoples bubbles. But from the general community consensus from outside of woot. I have gone over the animation frame by frame. The explosion that really big one is the explosion from Minerva firing the Tannhauser. The final moments of the fight between Impulse and Freedom are occuring the same time as Minerva fires. You can see the beam dissapaiting as the explosion grows. Looks like Freedom doesn't blow up as there is only one explosion and not two. Now how on earth could the Tannhauser create such an explosion not having hit the AA. Well thats whats currently being discussed but the big theory that seems to be going is that when the Tannhauser hit the water it started to evaporate and then ignited the massive amount of hydrogen that was created. In essence a giant hydrogen bomb went off. Freedom and Impulse were pretty far out and closer to the explosion as it envelopes Freedom and Impulse we are left with a crispy Impulse but Freedom has slipped away with a bunch of parts from Freedom and Impulse left behind in the water. Since Shinn survived in his cockpit its safe to assume Kira was pretty well protected in his. Although Freedom won't really be usable. He somehow is apparently gonna get away

SPOILER


The remains of freedom are taken by the EA and used to create the Testament Gundam which will be appearing in Gundam ACE soon. Its featured in Gundam SEED Destiny Astray and is proposed to be built from N Dagger N and Freedom parts. Pretty cool if you ask me


/SPOILER

[XwingRob]

Oh yeah! I forgot about hydrogen explosions, so yeah I guess it wasn't an artist goof.

[Motteh]

well ofcourse Destiny still is an anime (a cartoon if you degrade it)
and basically the creators can do anything they want with that as an excuse
but that's my typical cynical response

[DDBen]

q]Originally posted by: Motteh
i guess it really is difficult for some people to just agree that maybe Shinn has enough skill to do some damage to Kira
that along side with his brilliant strategy (and yes it was brilliant) and Kira's "i must protect" flaws (if you must call them flaws)
i think it's not more then plain logic that Kira was defeated
true Kira is a remarkable pilot, but Shinn is too
and even the best trip and land on their face atleast once in their life

as for the reactor exploding i have to agree with the fact that a nuclear reactor needs some serious conditions met to explode, and i don't think a "mere" sword strike would be enough reason for it to do so

but most likely we'll find out later in the series exactly what happened (atleast i hope so so this chapter will be closed)[/quote]

The question here is not does Shinn have skills(for me atleast). As it is very clear that Shinn is Zafts ace at this point and this has been stated by MANY people upto this point. The question is more of if Shinn actually won. The situation ment that Kira's goal was to mearly escape while keeping the AA safe instead of bothering to actually defeat Shinn . The other end of this is Shinn was going all out to defeat Freedom as he currently see's it as the one that killed Stellar.

Now you can either assume at this point that Kira is still alive and that the AA escaped reguardless of exactly how it did it. Please do note that Talia at this point is even questioning and acting against Dullindales orders so its entirely possible she had them fire the Tannhauser meerly to give the Illusion that AA was destroyed so that the battle could be ended while she continues to evaluate the situation. Now in the end if this is the case Kira in fact won the battle by meerly surviving and protecting all those he cared about in the process.

As for Shinn he definatly believes he has killed Kira and avenged Stellar so at this point there is definatly the fact that Shinn does believe he has won the battle and accomplished his goals. This of course will be proven incorrect if Kira does in fact live. In the end Shinn definatly won the battle but its a hollow and incomplete victory.

The questions I have proposed about HOW Kira survives this battle is the main question. I personally happen to give Kira a lot of credit as a pilot, which I find it hard to believe anyone can disagree that Kira is a Super Ace at this point in GSD. Now as such I happen to believe that Kira was also using strategy in this battle and while Shinn was doing his best to win, Kira was only attempting not to lose. In the end Impulse is definatly toast unless they once again have more leg and chest flyers which I find increadably unlikely considering how many he has completely destroyed at this point on a ship that can't even get replacement Zaku's. So in the end to me this battle is at best a draw with both Pilots losing there mechs. On the other hand if you consider the fact that the operation was a complete failure for Zaft with them being unable to accomplish any of there goals dispite a LOT of heavily damaged hardware I happen to believe that this battle turned out as more of a loss for Zaft despite the personal victory Shinn feels he has achieved in avenging Stellar(who died of absolutely nothing and if anyone is really to blame it would be Shinn who in cutting open the cockpit disabled any saftymeasures the suit might have had to prevent her from dying).




Originally posted by: Guardian_2000
Once again I come on and still see this thread hasn't moved. Atleast the Shinn/Kira is a better pilot discussion ended. I've come to rain on peoples parade and give new info that some seem to have missed.

Sorry to burst peoples bubbles. But from the general community consensus from outside of woot. I have gone over the animation frame by frame. The explosion that really big one is the explosion from Minerva firing the Tannhauser. The final moments of the fight between Impulse and Freedom are occuring the same time as Minerva fires. You can see the beam dissapaiting as the explosion grows. Looks like Freedom doesn't blow up as there is only one explosion and not two. Now how on earth could the Tannhauser create such an explosion not having hit the AA. Well thats whats currently being discussed but the big theory that seems to be going is that when the Tannhauser hit the water it started to evaporate and then ignited the massive amount of hydrogen that was created. In essence a giant hydrogen bomb went off. Freedom and Impulse were pretty far out and closer to the explosion as it envelopes Freedom and Impulse we are left with a crispy Impulse but Freedom has slipped away with a bunch of parts from Freedom and Impulse left behind in the water. Since Shinn survived in his cockpit its safe to assume Kira was pretty well protected in his. Although Freedom won't really be usable. He somehow is apparently gonna get away

I appreciate the fact you actually got some info on this Guardian as this is correct.

[Curium]

I believe I've commented on this before (I don't feel like looking), but look at WHERE Shinn hit Freedom. That is the location where Strike Freedom has a cannon built into it. Personally I believe that Freedom/Kira escaped when Shinn was distracted by the explosion. After this Freedom will obviously need major repairs, and since the suit that beat him is still active they would probably upgrade it. Have to fill in that gap in the torso, might as well add a cannon. At least 1 wing is completely gone, might as well redesign them with a better higher quality HiMAT system.

(I did see your post about the "Testament Gundam" Guardian, but at this time I choose to consider it as a rumor and go with this theory.)

[Millenium-Boyz]

Originally posted by: Curium
I believe I've commented on this before (I don't feel like looking), but look at WHERE Shinn hit Freedom. That is the location where Strike Freedom has a cannon built into it. Personally I believe that Freedom/Kira escaped when Shinn was distracted by the explosion. After this Freedom will obviously need major repairs, and since the suit that beat him is still active they would probably upgrade it. Have to fill in that gap in the torso, might as well add a cannon. At least 1 wing is completely gone, might as well redesign them with a better higher quality HiMAT system.

(I did see your post about the "Testament Gundam" Guardian, but at this time I choose to consider it as a rumor and go with this theory.)


what is testament gundam, and about the strike freedom see my post in this thread Spoilers thread (http://forums.gotwoot.net/messageview.cfm?catid=48&threadid=13492&STARTPAGE= 23&enterthread=y)

[Guardian_2000]

A rumor that has pics coming up in the August Gundam ACE. But if you want to go with that one guys idea. They take the remains and rebuild freedom as it was and give it to Cagalli.

FREEDOM ROUGE!!!
http://www.afterimpact.net/files/freedom_rouge.jpg
This is a shop so don't take it serious

[Curium]

Originally posted by: Millenium-Boyz
what is testament gundam

Look at the spoiler in the first post on this page.

[ArcZero]

hi i'm new here so hello all (^_^). what i think happened was that although the impulse did stab freedom, it didn't hit any vital parts like the njc or the cockpit. secondly if that were true, kira might've used the explosion to hide his escape. plus we don't see any of freedom's parts floating in the sea after the explosion. so that's my opinion.

[Madell]

Originally posted by: Guardian_2000

SPOILER


The remains of freedom are taken by the EA and used to create the Testament Gundam which will be appearing in Gundam ACE soon. Its featured in Gundam SEED Destiny Astray and is proposed to be built from N Dagger N and Freedom parts. Pretty cool if you ask me


/SPOILER

WoW Thnx for the info, is this about ep 34 ? NO ! stop posting freaky deaky spoilers...posst spoilers in the speculation thread !!

[Mut]

Originally posted by: Guardian_2000
...Well thats whats currently being discussed but the big theory that seems to be going is that when the Tannhauser hit the water it started to evaporate and then ignited the massive amount of hydrogen that was created. In essence a giant hydrogen bomb went off...
Oh my god, give me a fucking break. This is the biggest crock of anime-nerd bullshit I've read in my life. Whoever thought of that stupid, STUPID theory needs to get his/her face beaten in with a brick.

[mimidood]

Hey guys I am new to this but I found some interesting information.
http://final.exteen.com/
It is spoilers on the next 5 espisodes

[Millenium-Boyz]

Originally posted by: mimidood
Hey guys I am new to this but I found some interesting information.
http://final.exteen.com/
It is spoilers on the next 5 espisodes

Sorry mimidood but i think this is not a spoiler thread, and also your post have no relation at all to episode 34
but thanks a lot anyway im so happy to see the spoiler and i cant wait till episode 37 as i am a big fans of Kira and ZGMF-X20A, and are you sure that this spoiler is 100% accurate, because i have read other spoilers that said different things

[Dannynonsense]

Originally posted by: mimidood
Hey guys I am new to this but I found some interesting information.
http://final.exteen.com/
It is spoilers on the next 5 espisodes

these spoilers conflict with another set of spoilers also they really do seem fake real fake but thats just my opinion

[LokeXero]

Originally posted by: Dannynonsense


Originally posted by: mimidood
Hey guys I am new to this but I found some interesting information.
http://final.exteen.com/
It is spoilers on the next 5 espisodes

these spoilers conflict with another set of spoilers also they really do seem fake real fake but thats just my opinion

I second that motion, they do sound like an opinion and not truth...

[Jurojin]

@DDBen

Ok, crack-brained theories you've shared...
"Neo/Mwu pilot's Freedom to its destruction, and dies with it. (If the pilot had to die)"

Like it's been said before, there is NO plausible reason to let Neo/Mwu pilot Freedom at this time. Maybe later in the series, IF he gets his memories back, that could be a possibility, he takes a spare MS in AA's hanger and saved the day. But right now, even if he had gone "I remember everything!" it's too soon for them to trust him enough to give him the keys to one of the most powerful Gundams in existence. You HAVE to admit that the AA's crew is NOT stupid enough to just go "He looks and acts like Mwu, and he says he remembers everything. We'll just forget everything he's done for the EAF, and while we're at it, let him pilot Freedom to defend us, even though Kira is the superior pilot, and we'll just flat out ignore the possibility that he could be faking remembering just to escape." Theory debunked.


"Kira let Shinn beat him to let the AA escape, faking his own destruction."

I'm going to say it only this once- PLEASE for the love of whatever deities are out there, stop god-modding Kira. He's uber enough as he is, even if he can be beaten by Shinn once. To start tossing in crap like "They planned to fake his death in a split second" is only an attempt to rationalize that Shinn can't possibly beat Kira honestly, and it takes more and more away from Kira being human- yes, he's the UC, but that doesn't mean he's infallible. He can be beaten, he has been beaten, and for all of his strengths, he's only human.


"Shinn gave Stellar to Neo to pass the buck and not feel responsible. He could have come along and stolen the tech needed to keep Stellar alive."

>_< God I hate this one. Yes Shinn is an ass, I won't deny it- but now you're calling him a coward, and for some reason you want to think that he has the technical know-how to know what is needed to keep Stellar alive, when people with more medical training who were given access to the lab's database couldn't do anything for her. That's not even realistic, now it's like you're trying to god-mod Shinn to show that he's just trying to sluff off the responsibility. I.e. say he's capable of more than he really is so you can try to legitably say "Shinn's just trying to get out of feeling responsible for Stellar."




Anyone (other than DDBen) think I'm off base for saying that these aren't even remote possibilities?

[Terracosmo]

Originally posted by: Jurojin
Anyone (other than DDBen) think I'm off base for saying that these aren't even remote possibilities?

Hell no. I was just gonna type up the whole list of insane Ben theories myself, but you beat me to it.

I agree with every word. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Jurojin
@DDBen

Ok, crack-brained theories you've shared...
"Neo/Mwu pilot's Freedom to its destruction, and dies with it. (If the pilot had to die)"

Like it's been said before, there is NO plausible reason to let Neo/Mwu pilot Freedom at this time. Maybe later in the series, IF he gets his memories back, that could be a possibility, he takes a spare MS in AA's hanger and saved the day. But right now, even if he had gone "I remember everything!" it's too soon for them to trust him enough to give him the keys to one of the most powerful Gundams in existence. You HAVE to admit that the AA's crew is NOT stupid enough to just go "He looks and acts like Mwu, and he says he remembers everything. We'll just forget everything he's done for the EAF, and while we're at it, let him pilot Freedom to defend us, even though Kira is the superior pilot, and we'll just flat out ignore the possibility that he could be faking remembering just to escape." Theory debunked.


First off this theory had a very simple requirement. That requirement was if in episode 34 Freedom was destroyed and the pilot was killed. If for whatever reason Mwu regained his memories and someone had to die he was simply the only truely expendable character. He's a EA officer so its not like they would let him surrender or escape and Shinn would certainly have a lot more reason to kill him. Also please note when the first half of the battles in this episode were simply removed this was no longer a possibility so your arguing a absolutely dead point here.




Originally posted by: Jurojin
"Kira let Shinn beat him to let the AA escape, faking his own destruction."

I'm going to say it only this once- PLEASE for the love of whatever deities are out there, stop god-modding Kira. He's uber enough as he is, even if he can be beaten by Shinn once. To start tossing in crap like "They planned to fake his death in a split second" is only an attempt to rationalize that Shinn can't possibly beat Kira honestly, and it takes more and more away from Kira being human- yes, he's the UC, but that doesn't mean he's infallible. He can be beaten, he has been beaten, and for all of his strengths, he's only human.

You are misquoting this entirely. I stated that Shinn got in some hits on freedom the most relevant being destroying the wing. However, That when Shinn stabbed Freedom Kira diverted the blade to a nonvital location and used the chance of Impulse being at extremely close range and unable to dodge to take out the sensors on Impulse (namely chopping off the head and arm which is clearly shown). This final movement was made by Kira expressly to escape withough giving Zaft what they wanted.




Originally posted by: Jurojin
"Shinn gave Stellar to Neo to pass the buck and not feel responsible. He could have come along and stolen the tech needed to keep Stellar alive."

>_< God I hate this one. Yes Shinn is an ass, I won't deny it- but now you're calling him a coward, and for some reason you want to think that he has the technical know-how to know what is needed to keep Stellar alive, when people with more medical training who were given access to the lab's database couldn't do anything for her. That's not even realistic, now it's like you're trying to god-mod Shinn to show that he's just trying to sluff off the responsibility. I.e. say he's capable of more than he really is so you can try to legitably say "Shinn's just trying to get out of feeling responsible for Stellar."


This is a fact not a theory unless of course you can show me any part where Shinn blames himself or Neo for what Stellar was doing with Destroy. Shinn has never once blamed himself for any of his own actions in the entire series. The only argueable exception to this is when his famil initially got killed and the joke is thats the only time he didn't actually cause the problem in the first place.

I don't believe a single one of these is either insane or out of character for ANY of those in GSD and I fully stand by them. Note the first was a scenario that involved several things happening that never took place and thus the scenario had no place. They rushed the battle between Impulse and Freedom to the point that this episode lacked atleast 15 minutes of the battle that would have taken place before Minerva managed to show up.

[Jurojin]

No, it's not a dead point, the point is that you made up something that had only ONE thing going for it, Neo/Mwu's expendability, which I don't disagree with you on- but the rest of the variables which should be utter common sense to you should tell you that there's not a point in bringing it up- there is NO possible way that Neo/Mwu could have gotten into Freedom in ANY scenario, and your stubbornness to admit that is appalling.

You're God-modding Kira again. As a pilot, I'm sure he could have done enough of a deflection to not get himself killed- but the notion he did it for anything other than self-preservation is ludicrous! How the heck can you honestly say this was going on in his mind: "Well, I can't avoid this attack, but I can disable Impulse to where they can't see what happens to me, and I'll be able to get away with the AA." Shinn gave Kira little time to do much of anything but react, especially with Kira's attention split b/w the AA getting shot up, and Impulse going at him full fury.

Beginning of episode 33, before the OC, Shinn puts Stellar's body into the lake. He cries for the loss, and he also, while crying, apologizes to Stellar for not protecting her, for not keeping her safe. THERE. PROOF that he does at least feel partly responsible.

[DDBen]

The first one remains a dead issue and I'm not wasting my time arguing over something that isn't going to take place considering what happened.



Originally posted by: Jurojin
You're God-modding Kira again. As a pilot, I'm sure he could have done enough of a deflection to not get himself killed- but the notion he did it for anything other than self-preservation is ludicrous! How the heck can you honestly say this was going on in his mind: "Well, I can't avoid this attack, but I can disable Impulse to where they can't see what happens to me, and I'll be able to get away with the AA." Shinn gave Kira little time to do much of anything but react, especially with Kira's attention split b/w the AA getting shot up, and Impulse going at him full fury.


Think about this rationally instead of simply sitting here humping a Shinn doll. Kira would know weather or not such a sword would pierce freedom. For the simple reason that Sword Strike used a similar weapon. So why would he block with a shield if he knew it was futile.. Why would he aim for the head of Impulse instead of the sword (in order to deflect it from piercing the shield and why would he take the sword into the gut of freedom for absolutely no reason. I'm sorry but considering Kira's skills shown throught both series there is absolutely no reason he couldn't have dodged the sword or the previous boomarang. He was not fighting back on purpose and if you've seen the Sub you should certainly know that one by now. So as soon as you can give me a answer as to how Freedom could escape without using ANY strategy at all in the battle and I'll be happy to concede that Kira is a bumbling idiot who has simply gotten by on his good looks and never shown a ounce of skill.



Originally posted by: Jurojin
Beginning of episode 33, before the OC, Shinn puts Stellar's body into the lake. He cries for the loss, and he also, while crying, apologizes to Stellar for not protecting her, for not keeping her safe. THERE. PROOF that he does at least feel partly responsible.


He did indeed responsible for not protecting her from KIRA. This is differn't from simply not protecting her. At this point he felt Neo was dead and that Kira was responsable for killing Stellar. This is very differn't from Shinn feeling bad about him returning her to the EA, blaming Neo for forcing her to fight again or blaming Stellar for having just killed tens if not hundreds of thousands of people. His actions and so called remorse was just him reasoning how to blame someone else for what happened and not take any responsability for it. If you can seriously tell me that Destroy didn't need to go then your simply insane. The fact remains Kira took out destroy without taking out the cockpit in the process. This means the only possibility of how stellar died lies in the hole that Shinn himself cut in the cockpit meaning the only reason she died were Shinns actions and not Kira's which he has absolutely not taken resonsability for.

[Digitalgirl]

Your Neo/Mwu theory that he will pilot Freedom was wishful thinking.
Shinn gave Stellar back to EAF because he could do nothing to help her, and she was dieing. He gave her back because he was not a scientist, did not have the necessary equipment to help her, and he wanted her to live because he loved her [or at least had a strong crush on her]. I don't think Shinn would go through all this trouble just "to pass the buck and not feel responsible" if it could mean getting killed himself by disobeying orders.

[Guardian_2000]

Why would kira have aimed for Impulse's main camera and not something else? Throughout all of 34 Kira is trying to defend AA. Thats was his priority. Cagalli must get to ORB. The fact that he sent the text message makes me think he knew he wasn't going with them. If he had communicated via voice or AV he would have had to deal with whatever response they had. Plus it would of been more of a distraction with Shinn who was pressing harder and harder. Kira always seems to have a reason for his actions. Hes not going to do a 180 either. Freedom and AA are major targets in this war now that the Chairman has made his speech. This may have been what Cagalli and Kira feared in 33. If you rewatch the Impulse vs Freedom fight the ending could of gone differently in a couple ways. All Kira did thou was wait for Shinn to come in with the attack thou and take out his head and main camera as the Minerva's attack had that huge explosion. In the end we're left with a scrapped Impulse and a missing Freedom.

As for my spoiler Madell it has everything to do with 34 because its 34's events that lead to that outcome. I can always change it to say that its a Destiny Astray spoiler.

[Jurojin]

Screw it, you're not worth my time. I've already told you why Kira couldn't dodge, you're forfeiting on the first point because you know you can't win, and I'll leave you to your Shinn-burning and your wet dreams with Kira-kun.


Anyways:

Will Gladys get in trouble with Dullindal for giving AA a chance to escape? The orders, at least from the ZAFT ground commander, seemed to be "Sink the AA." Since it seems pretty clear that her attempt at diplomacy is what let the AA hit the water, Any repercussions? Or will her FAITH status exempt her from even the Chairman's wrath? Or will he even get angry, instead just going "Eh, it's ok- now give me some sugar." @ Gladys?

[Madell]

Originally posted by: Guardian_2000
As for my spoiler Madell it has everything to do with 34 because its 34's events that lead to that outcome. I can always change it to say that its a Destiny Astray spoiler.

No because...you'r talking about future epi's not about epi 34 i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

[qilinkiddo]

sub or raw version of episode 34 has come out...onli those who never watch before would consider it as a spoiler...
but the future episode...everyone had never watch before...aint this make it a spoiler too... -_-

[qilinkiddo]

i watch the episode...kira could have dodge even tho he was distracted by the arch angel...
but why did the freedom instead of dodging or shut down his thruster and charge towards the impulse...
he had the time to charge...why did not he dodge -_-

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Madell


Originally posted by: Guardian_2000
As for my spoiler Madell it has everything to do with 34 because its 34's events that lead to that outcome. I can always change it to say that its a Destiny Astray spoiler.

No because...you'r talking about future epi's not about epi 34

Actually his spoiler had nothing to do with GSD at all. Its not a spoiler to say freedom had wreckage or Kira survives as its easily interpreted by the beginning and ending. With the exception of if your crazy enough to think Calgari gets Strik Freedom.

@Digigirl and Jurojin
The first Theory in question never had a chance to take place the sacriice of freedom was not needed and they never showed Kira launching in this episode so why would they use any other pilot they simply skipped the section that this scenario which was one of many I put out each which had SPECIFIC requirements for them to take place.

As for Shinn please tell me any example of him obeying orders or taking responsability for what he's done at anyplace in the series post the battle where they left Orb. Shinn has changed a lot during the series he disobey's orders because he thinks he's right. He felt that by giving Stellar back to Neo he could in his world get her off the battlefield and out of his way as he did not want to fight her. So yes by giving her to Neo he was attempting to purely make it easier for him to kill without remorse. I don't deney he had feelings for Stellar in my opinion his feelings were more of romantic while hers were more of big brother who is going to protect me. Note that Stellar's romantic interest has been portrayed as Neo who she always calls for first and who she would do anything for atleast in my opinion.

So in the end dump Stellar on Neo to get her out of the way. Thats all that Shinn did and upon finding Neo broke his promise Shinn does not blame Neo at all there was absolutely zero mention. Instead he blames Kira for saving his life.

[jing]

Man if Kira had the intent to kill, Shinn would have died. But nevertheless, Shinn did know what he was doing. Finally showed the advantages of being able to detach and such.

[qilinkiddo]

thats the kira we know =D
lolz...i like it when kira thought it is over after chopping of the head and the hand and going to move towards AA i think
out of the blue...impulse detach and its body goes flying towards freedom lolz

[thejamppa]

Right, as Knowing Talia and Her character and fact he realizes who Ramius was when they replied her call and considering fact more than 90% was submerged, ArchAngel is not destroyed and I think Tännhausers firecontrol did missed bit so ArchAngel is not destroyed, even everybody thinks so. Kira survived Nuclear explosion when Athrun self detonated Aegis in SEED, this situation is similar. Freedom is seemed to be trashed and destroyed and Kira dead but soon he will appear in Strike Freedom. Of course you guys think Kira might have died but Shinns sword did not hit Freedoms cockpit but below it... And If Kira would have died it would have showed it beyond a doubt. Blood gushing out of mouth ( Nichol, Heine etc... ) So, Kira will be back and improved... ArchAngel and Kira survived. That is for sure. Bandai plays for safe and cannot allow that numerous main characters die at this point of story, it would be disaster for marketing and would be quite bad for SEED syndication... Its just classical cliffhanger they used earlier in SEED... ArchAngel and Kira will be back later kicking butts...

[Curium]

Originally posted by: Jurojin
Screw it, you're not worth my time. I've already told you why Kira couldn't dodge

Dodging would have been easy. All he had to do was turn Freedom off and let Gravity do the work.

[Motteh]

Originally posted by: thejamppa
Kira survived Nuclear explosion when Athrun self detonated Aegis in SEED, this situation is similar.
just to be a smartass - Aegis couldn't ever produce a nuclear explosion unless it shot a nuclear missile
which at that point of the story wasn't possible cause the Neutron Jammer Canceller would only be on blueprints
and not yet build


Originally posted by: Curium


Originally posted by: Jurojin
Screw it, you're not worth my time. I've already told you why Kira couldn't dodge
Dodging would have been easy. All he had to do was turn Freedom off and let Gravity do the work.
i disagree
i interpreted the events as such: Tannhauser was fired, Shinn gets his sword, Kira looks at the Tannhauser beam approaching ArchAngel, Shinn charges in, Kira looks back at Impulse only to see it speeding towards him

now let's say Kira turned the thrusters off at that point, even then i highly doubt it would've been in time to let Freedom drop totally out of range of Shinn's charge
i think that if he would've turned it off things would've been more disastrous as Freedom would've been struck higher and thus closer to the cockpit

but that's just my interpretation of things

[PTX-003C-SP1]

more spoilers

phase 39's title is a character's name with 5 words

[XwingRob]

That is a very long name.

[PTX-003C-SP1]

Originally posted by: XwingRob
That is a very long name.

not really...there are 2 ppl with a name with 5 words....

[ch4kz]

Originally posted by: Millenium-Boyz


Originally posted by: mimidood
Hey guys I am new to this but I found some interesting information.
http://final.exteen.com/
It is spoilers on the next 5 espisodes

Sorry mimidood but i think this is not a spoiler thread, and also your post have no relation at all to episode 34
but thanks a lot anyway im so happy to see the spoiler and i cant wait till episode 37 as i am a big fans of Kira and ZGMF-X20A, and are you sure that this spoiler is 100% accurate, because i have read other spoilers that said different things


I hear they are accurate. Gunota headlines has a lot to do with NewType magazine ...right? and they had a link to this guys site ... http://aeug.blogspot.com/

Also Kira is alive. its obviuos that he is...even with out spoilers. Kira def.. espcaped somehow.

The title will most likely be Lacus.

[XwingRob]

Originally posted by: PTX-003C-SP1


Originally posted by: XwingRob
That is a very long name.

not really...there are 2 ppl with a name with 5 words....

*coughs* You mean letters right?*coughs* i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

[Motteh]

Originally posted by: XwingRob


Originally posted by: PTX-003C-SP1


Originally posted by: XwingRob
That is a very long name.

not really...there are 2 ppl with a name with 5 words....

*coughs* You mean letters right?*coughs*
i think he does
cause i can't even think of 1 name with 5 words, let alone 2

[DDBen]

People this is not a thread for random spoilers so stop hinting at mentioning or quoting spoilers to any episode in GSD beyond 34

[valkirie19]

Shiin isn't looking to fix his losses with force, he's looking for revenge plain and simple. The sad thing is he doesn't understand who's at fault for the death of his family. He just wants someone to blame. Orb has always been his enemy since his family died before and after they joined the EAF, it just made it easier for him to kill somone when they joined the battles. He's never said if he's ever had any ideals on freedom or war ending, he just wants a never ending battle. He blames Kira for killing Stellar and yet doesn't want to take any responsibilty for returning her to the enemy that put her in a mobile suit in the first place. If you know the EAF can't be trusted then why return her. Shinn is a little immature. He isn't protecting anything or anyone. I'm a soldier in the military and I know from being in Iraq, if a soldier doesn't have something he's fighting for or someone to protect then he's no longer a soldier, he's a murderer.

[valkirie19]

Being a soldier in the Army, we are taught blindly following orders doesn't make it right. There are always orders you know to follow or disobey. Heck he didn't even follow simple rules of engagement. Shinn could have tried to take the time to figure another way of capturing Kira but chose revenge. I mean come on do you think if he was given orders to take them alive he would've. I've had friends and family members lose there lives in war but blind rage doesn't solve anything, it just gets more people hurt. Shinn hasn't thought about it but he's just as bad a person as the mobile suit pilots that killed his family. He's killed someone's father, brother etc... Shinn is a superb pilot. How hard could it be to disable a moblie suit if Kira and Athrun can do it. He doesn't even care that Stellar left hundreds in worse condition. Don't get me wrong, I thought Shinn was an ok character at first until I noticed he doesn't believe in anything except vengance. If someone showed him what he was doing I'm think he may change his ways.

[qilinkiddo]

the death of shinn family causes him to be sort of loner...
it causes shinn to think/act differently from those with family...family love o.O

he was just a little young 14 years old boy...who have mayu,his father and his mother and their love
living in a world that was filled with happiness
but however...its too sudden that all your family members around you have died in an INSTANT...
its too much for shiinn to handle...causes him to see life negatively...
causing him to see things in hatred instead of understanding/concern/love

shinn actually love orb and have faith in orb when his 14 and orb idealism
shinn parents also believe that they would not got into war as long they r in orb
the hatred against orb was due to his faith and love for orb...
in one episode i do remembing athrun said that something like
shinn blaming on orb aint it because of the faith shinn put in orb

the only way to prevent stellar from dying is to return stellar back to EAF...
and when you saw your love ones dying...you would not consider what would she do in the future...
the only thing you think off is whether she could stay alive for now

the only thing shinn tries to protect is stellar...
stellar causes a big change in shinn for the first time that shinn actually tried to protect someone...
also its true that kira killedied to fire and killed three towns o stellar only because stellar trf civilians and who can say its wrong

but its only natural that you blame the one who causes her death directly(your love ones) somemore
when your love ones death, i dont believe you would be bother to consider who kill her indirectly
but you would hate and wants to kill the one who causes her/his death directly thus its kira

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: qilinkiddo
the only way to prevent stellar from dying is to return stellar back to EAF...
and when you saw your love ones dying...you would not consider what would she do in the future...
the only thing you think off is whether she could stay alive for now

Actually Shinn was mearly hoping by giving Stellar back to Neo that someone else would protect her as he is simply not the kind of guy who protects anything. Unless you can give me a better reason for him giving Neo that shiney thing Stellar gave him. This was a action made by Shinn to forget about Stellar and move on with his revenge. The fact before Stellar was put in Destroy that her memory was not altered and that she was allowed to wear the thingy as a pendant is a really wierd move that Neo made considering it would obviously be capable of downgrading her ability to use destroy VS the Minerva which at the current time is the Flagship of Zaft.

This is the main reason why I have previously stated that Shinn was not trying to protect Stellar with his actions. If Shinn had kept the pendant and recalled that he was fighting so people wouldn't have to suffer like Stellar has.

[PSJ]

Okay DDBen we know that you don't like Shinn but that doesn't make him totally selfish and revenge driven. I don't know what you are trying to pull with your posts, maybe a Shinn bashing marathon? We get it already you hate the guy, okey!

He gave Stellar back to Neo because he thought that was the best solution at the moment. How would Shinn know that Neo was going to put Stellar into a new unit and make her fight again? It was better to give her back to Neo and hope that he kept his promise since the other alternative was to let her be killed and used by ZAFT. While im at it i'll say that Shinn had no idea that Neo's Windam was the only operational suit on the EAF ship so he couldn't just have gone there and taken the necessary equipment to keep Stellar alive and leave.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: PSJ
Okay DDBen we know that you don't like Shinn but that doesn't make him totally selfish and revenge driven. I don't know what you are trying to pull with your posts, maybe a Shinn bashing marathon? We get it already you hate the guy, okey!

He gave Stellar back to Neo because he thought that was the best solution at the moment. How would Shinn know that Neo was going to put Stellar into a new unit and make her fight again? It was better to give her back to Neo and hope that he kept his promise since the other alternative was to let her be killed and used by ZAFT. While im at it i'll say that Shinn had no idea that Neo's Windam was the only operational suit on the EAF ship so he couldn't just have gone there and taken the necessary equipment to keep Stellar alive and leave.

Nope he didn't know that for a fact but he also didn't even try to do it. That is meerly one of several things he could have attempted. Also PSJ give me a reason he gave her the thingy in the jar when he gave her back. The first time they meet she gave it to him and he kept it hoping to see her again. When on the other hand he gave her back to Neo he passed off everything that could remind him of her.

Also for the love of all that is holy people I don't like Shinn's characters actions in the anime but I do not hate the guys writing. I personally couldn't care less if he lives or dies I'm simply stating how I interpret the meaning behind his actions at any given time. I don't have Kira plushies all over my room for me to hug and Shinn ones to take out back and shoot. Also PSJ you have stated my EXACT position on Shinn, in the thread about the theory of Shinn haters VS Kira Lovers, word for word of the one I've stated.

Shinns character remains completely driven by revenge what he's avenging has changed from time to time but in the end his only motivation is to avange and in no way protect anything.

edit: I mentioned the wrong thread up above and changed it to the correct one.

[PSJ]

The fact that you think someone that is desperately trying to save a loved ones life is capable of thinking clearly just shows how much thought you gave this. Shinn for the first time in his life since his beloved sister and family died had someone he loved and "loved" him back. This made him do what he did he tried his best to save her, he is a 16 year old boy not god. Everybody does mistakes and questionable things.

As for the post i did, first of all it's in this discussion. Second with that post i think it clearly states that he cares about Stellar enough to do something totally against the army code. However i do agree that it supports your thoughts a little to much, i dislike Shinn like shit on my shoe. That could be the reason why that post came out the way it did, which was the wrong way.

[Terracosmo]

I wonder if there's anyone here who actually thinks DDBen's Shinn theories make sense.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: PSJ
The fact that you think someone that is desperately trying to save a loved ones life is capable of thinking clearly just shows how much thought you gave this. Shinn for the first time in his life since his beloved sister and family died had someone he loved and "loved" him back. This made him do what he did he tried his best to save her, he is a 16 year old boy not god. Everybody does mistakes and questionable things.

As for the post i did, first of all it's in this discussion. Second with that post i think it clearly states that he cares about Stellar enough to do something totally against the army code. However i do agree that it supports your thoughts a little to much, i dislike Shinn like shit on my shoe. That could be the reason why that post came out the way it did, which was the wrong way.


I have absolutely no disagreement what so ever that Shinn's actions were all he could come up with doing. Arguing that it was anything less then routine for Shinn to disobey direct orders is absolutely pointless as the guy does nothing he's told reguardless of who outranks him. Exactly what I'm saying is Shinn when he gave her to Neo absolutely wanted to believe that she would go off to a bunny farm to live a life without war. However, I don't think there was a romantic love between Stellar and Shinn much more a brother sister vibe. In my world Stellars love interest always was Neo not Shinn and that she cared about Shinn in the way you would look upto a big brother who protects you from harm. The point that is once he gave back Stellar Shinn expected never to see her again he was also doing his best to forget about it and was trying to convince himself that she would goto said "bunny farm". This line of thinking that Stellar, who is nothing more then a tool of war as she can not live without drugs and was made that way only to fight, would never have to fight again however is very childish and naive. This just shows the immaturity of his character. The point is this move nomatter where Stellar ended up was made so that he could forget about her because he didn't want to admit to himself he was not strong enough or capable enough to do what he would need to in order to truely protect her. Then the fact he blames Kira for killing her and not himself or Neo. I don't think anyone can disagree Kira is at best third in line for the death of Stellar.

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
I wonder if there's anyone here who actually thinks DDBen's Shinn theories make sense.

I find it hard to believe you guys have such a hard time making sense of them. While they might be a bit extreme, they are certainly a valid pyschological assesment of Shinn's actions.

Dont forget, Shinn is 16. he's a child. And Children dont really have the greatest grasp on huge emotional issues. He started being screwed up beyond belief the moment his family died and he didn't (survivors guilt, anyone?). His next action, joining up with the one military group who wasn't involved in his loss, isn't exactly the most rational choice.

When he met Stelllar.... well, what could he be thinking? He rescues a pretty girl, who seems confused and scared. One who takes her clothes off in front of him. What is he supposed to be thinking at this point. Stellar was an emotional three year old, and I find it hard to argue differently. While she likes Shinn, I bet she would have liked any fireman or rescue worker who pulled her out of the ocean, told her everything was fine, and that they were going ot protect her just as well. Shinn is just attracted to the fact that she genuinely likes him (and she does).

When Shinn passes Stellar back to Neo, it is a bit of a Copout. He knows he cant protect her, so he passes her off to someone who can. He knows she is probably going ot be jsut as abused by the EAF (he saw what they did to the Extended in those labs, rememeber? I dont Imagine it was any better than what ZAFT had in Store), so he makes Neo make a promise that he (Shinn) knows Neo cant keep. To make himself feel better. Amazingly enough, Neo apparently does try to keep his promise, by putting Stellar in Destroy (better than Chaos... I dont believe Stellar was the better candidate than Sting, I think Neo wanted her to be safe). Notice, more evidence of Stellars 3 year old emotional personality. "Scary things are coming, and we are all gonna die if Stellar doesn't kill them" is the type of thing you'd tell a 3 year old with a gun, not a soldier.

Then, when Stellar dies, Shinn doesn't try to come to terms with the fact that his hesitation costed innocent lives. The fact that Stellar, whom he was trying to protect, was now a murderer of hundreds of thousands of people. Or that, had he not given stellar back to the EAF, millions would not now be forced from their homes and likely to die from a lack of food, shelter, and god knows what else.

No, he decides to blame Kira for Stellars death.

It seems to me that Shinn is incapable of taking responsibilty for his actions, and that hasn't changed at any point in the series.

Oh well, dont take this as Shinn bashing, because to me its not. I think the fact that such an in depth pyschological evaluation of Shinn is possible is a testament to how well his character is written, and in my mind that is how characters are first judged. The fact that I hate the character comes much later in the evaluation.

Kefka was an asshole, but I still think he was the coolest damned villain of all time.

[Motteh]

Originally posted by: DDBen
Also PSJ give me a reason he gave her the thingy in the jar when he gave her back.

i'm not PSJ but i will give a reason
ever considered the fact he gave to her in the hope that it would help her remind him?
he also said that "she liked it" to Neo when he gave it to her
plus the fact that he added "don't forget about me" right before he ran back to his MS and whiping the tears from his eyes

also DDBen, it's funny how every 3rd or 4th post of you is the almost the same
the phrase "i don't like his actions but i don't dislike the way he's written" comes up every single time
don't you think we know you think that way after 4 times?

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Motteh


Originally posted by: DDBen
Also PSJ give me a reason he gave her the thingy in the jar when he gave her back.

i'm not PSJ but i will give a reason
ever considered the fact he gave to her in the hope that it would help her remind him?
he also said that "she liked it" to Neo when he gave it to her
plus the fact that he added "don't forget about me" right before he ran back to his MS and whiping the tears from his eyes

also DDBen, it's funny how every 3rd or 4th post of you is the almost the same
the phrase "i don't like his actions but i don't dislike the way he's written" comes up every single time
don't you think we know you think that way after 4 times?

Nope actually I don't see that reasoning as valid at all as last time he gave her something aka the hankerchief that she was holding onto after there first meeting she was brain wiped and it was taken away.

please read MeroTZ post above yours as it is well written and also states many of the points I have made quite well perhaps in a much better organised way then I have managed at a few point.

Also the reason I have repeated myself in such a manor is because of certain close minded morons who keep accusing everyone who disagree's with them of having a hatred of Shinn and love of Kira.

[Jurojin]

We've only had, what, 2 episodes after her death? So far he's been concentrating on Kira. Now that Kira is out of the picture (as far as he knows) MAYBE he'll reflect on things. You people aren't even giving him a chance.


He gave Stellar the shell peice to help her remember him- matter of fact, that was what he said when he did give her to Neo.



I just find this "He could have stolen equipment" line to be utter crap. Shinn is NOT a medical scientist- he would have less of a clue than any of you on what would be needed to keep her alive, and none of you can honestly say what would be needed for her.


Saying it's a copout to give Stellar to people that can keep her alive is utterly heartless, especially in Shinn's case. Leaving her on the Minerva to die was not an option: If it were someone YOU cared for, would you just sit there and watch her writhe and twist and gasp from all the pain and suffering her body was going through? Or would you give her the ONLY chance, no matter how remote, at living she had?

This is even more compounded for Shinn, since he's already had his entire family wiped out in front of him. Leaving her to die scared and in pain is as horrifying to him as it should be to any sane person.

[Terracosmo]

DDBen: The only reason you think MeroTZ's post is well-written is because it's the first one ever (hopefully) that agrees with your theories.

Anyone who thinks like you two do are overanalyzing like hell, even throwing in insignificant factors such as his age. As if age even means shit in anime...
There is no sense behind it. Everything we need to know has been portrayed in the show. If Shinn even had the slightest secret plan of destinies to "get rid of" Stellar by giving her to Neo, the show would have told us. Now can't people just shut up and stop making up bullshit?

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: Jurojin
We've only had, what, 2 episodes after her death? So far he's been concentrating on Kira. Now that Kira is out of the picture (as far as he knows) MAYBE he'll reflect on things. You people aren't even giving him a chance.


And yet he had time to study and reason out a way to defeat Freedom. He chose not to reflect on her death, and that is what the obvious problem is.






He gave Stellar the shell peice to help her remember him- matter of fact, that was what he said when he did give her to Neo.



True. He gave it to her in front of an enemy with a vested interest in her not remembering him.





I just find this "He could have stolen equipment" line to be utter crap. Shinn is NOT a medical scientist- he would have less of a clue than any of you on what would be needed to keep her alive, and none of you can honestly say what would be needed for her.



Absolutely!





Saying it's a copout to give Stellar to people that can keep her alive is utterly heartless, especially in Shinn's case. Leaving her on the Minerva to die was not an option: If it were someone YOU cared for, would you just sit there and watch her writhe and twist and gasp from all the pain and suffering her body was going through? Or would you give her the ONLY chance, no matter how remote, at living she had?



Except he knows what the EAF has done to Extended. He has seen the labs. And he knows that eventual death and research on her body are in fact not worse than the potential horrors that the EAF might visit on an Extended subject with protracted withdrawal from their machines. He should have known that he was probably delivering her to worse suffering than she was already in, but he chose to ignore that possibility.





This is even more compounded for Shinn, since he's already had his entire family wiped out in front of him. Leaving her to die scared and in pain is as horrifying to him as it should be to any sane person.

Except that a sane person would first have confronted the captain. Maybe used some of that clout he gains by being a "Super Ace" to rouse some support for Stellars human rights. There were a lot of other options (god forbid he listen to their rationale on how studying stellar might save lives in the future) but he chose one that was liekly to lead to several deaths (namely those of Zaft pilots) and in fact lead to the slaughter of thousands (maybe millions) of innocent lives.

Shinn did not make a sane choice. To quote that old knight guy in Indiana Jones 3, "He chose poorly"

EDIT: In response to Terra's previous post, I think you are doing a great disservice to the writers by ignoring the sublties they have built into the show.

Taking things at face value is rarely the best idea.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
DDBen: The only reason you think MeroTZ's post is well-written is because it's the first one ever (hopefully) that agrees with your theories.

Anyone who thinks like you two do are overanalyzing like hell, even throwing in insignificant factors such as his age. As if age even means shit in anime...
There is no sense behind it. Everything we need to know has been portrayed in the show. If Shinn even had the slightest secret plan of destinies to "get rid of" Stellar by giving her to Neo, the show would have told us. Now can't people just shut up and stop making up bullshit?

So Terra is this anything like you saying you had to much respect for the writers to believe Neo was Mwu because it was to obvious. Yet now you state that the writers have to spell everything out in minute detail for it to be true.

I happen to give the writers proper credit for doing research and showing things as they would happen in real life. This may be a anime but its one thats based on reality and the horrors of war. Simply go make up your mind before posting things that completely contradict arguements you're already trying to make.



Originally posted by: Jurojin
I just find this "He could have stolen equipment" line to be utter crap. Shinn is NOT a medical scientist- he would have less of a clue than any of you on what would be needed to keep her alive, and none of you can honestly say what would be needed for her.



This is correct he is not a scientist, however, this is no less likely to work then giving her back to Neo to make her fight. In the end none of the choices were good its just the fact that the choice he made was to have someone else take care of it.

[Jurojin]

While that may be true from an outside perspective, thats not is what is in question here. Im defending him in so far as WHY he did what he did, i.e. his rationale, though I do agree that handing her over to the EAF was certain to put her in a position that she was in.

Youre painting him as NOT wanting responsibility for Stellar or her actions. That is simply untrue. People dont risk court martial and execution for not wanting to be responsible in the manner youre saying. He knew that ZAFT was not going to treat her well, and couldnt save her from death due to lack of time for research. He knew what the EAF had done to her and others in the past during the training phases, but that isnt necessarily a reflection of whats going on with her right now. If it were you and the only options in your skewed mind (i.e. Shinn views things in a certain manner) were let her die or let her live, which would you honestly pick? He thoughts on the matter were damned simple, and you are far out-reaching reality to plaster so I dont have to watch her die onto him. To Shinn, with the type of person he has constantly shown himself to be, it was I cant let her die because Im supposed to protect her and I love her (in whatever fashion floats your boat), the only choice she has is to be treated by the EAF, because they are her only hope of survival. Not I cant watch her die in front of me, I need to risk death from both sides to give her back to the enemy just so Ill feel better about it.

The second line of reasoning is just plain stupid. And its exactly the crap DDBen is touting. Shinn, who is very pig-headed and head strong to boot, is most certainly NOT an idiot. Would he have wasted the time to get Gaias IFF code if he didnt think through the plan to get Stellar to the EAF carefully?

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: Jurojin
While that may be true from an outside perspective, thats not is what is in question here. Im defending him in so far as WHY he did what he did, i.e. his rationale, though I do agree that handing her over to the EAF was certain to put her in a position that she was in.

Youre painting him as NOT wanting responsibility for Stellar or her actions. That is simply untrue. People dont risk court martial and execution for not wanting to be responsible in the manner youre saying. He knew that ZAFT was not going to treat her well, and couldnt save her from death due to lack of time for research. He knew what the EAF had done to her and others in the past during the training phases, but that isnt necessarily a reflection of whats going on with her right now. If it were you and the only options in your skewed mind (i.e. Shinn views things in a certain manner) were let her die or let her live, which would you honestly pick? He thoughts on the matter were damned simple, and you are far out-reaching reality to plaster so I dont have to watch her die onto him. To Shinn, with the type of person he has constantly shown himself to be, it was I cant let her die because Im supposed to protect her and I love her (in whatever fashion floats your boat), the only choice she has is to be treated by the EAF, because they are her only hope of survival. Not I cant watch her die in front of me, I need to risk death from both sides to give her back to the enemy just so Ill feel better about it.

The second line of reasoning is just plain stupid. And its exactly the crap DDBen is touting. Shinn, who is very pig-headed and head strong to boot, is most certainly NOT an idiot. Would he have wasted the time to get Gaias IFF code if he didnt think through the plan to get Stellar to the EAF carefully?

First, a carefully thought out plan is not neccesarily a well thought out plan. He obviously didn't plan ahead.

And as for Shinn risking his life... well, he's used to it. He's a pilot. Seriously though, I think this is your best point you've got going for you, because it does make perfect sense. Why would Shinn risk his life, if he didn't genuinely care for Stellar?

The big hole here, unfortunately, is that Shinn is the ZAFT Super Ace. The only operational pilot on Minerva. And he knows Dulindal. You see, he probably also thought, what with him being so arrogant, that he was above reprisal for his actions.

And he was right. So maybe he never did think of it as risking his own life?

[Terracosmo]

"So Terra is this anything like you saying you had to much respect for the writers to believe Neo was Mwu because it was to obvious. Yet now you state that the writers have to spell everything out in minute detail for it to be true."

Idiot. My original belief was that the show was too "advanced" or rather unpredictable for Neo to be Mwu, but since he was it kinda validated what level the show is at. So no, can't say I'm expecting anything less than a simple spelling out of what's gonna happen any longer. And in retrospect, it's been that way since the beginning of Seed. The whole Mwu gig was just a new low for it.

"EDIT: In response to Terra's previous post, I think you are doing a great disservice to the writers by ignoring the sublties they have built into the show."

Ehm, okay, so you're saying that the writers have put in a subtle theme which consists of Shinn really not liking Stellar at all, that only people like you and DDBen can see?
Riiiight...

Also, guys, there's a difference between seeing subtle things and making up total bullshit.
You'd do yourselves many favors by finding it.

[qilinkiddo]

Originally posted by: DDBen


Originally posted by: qilinkiddo
the only way to prevent stellar from dying is to return stellar back to EAF...
and when you saw your love ones dying...you would not consider what would she do in the future...
the only thing you think off is whether she could stay alive for now

Actually Shinn was mearly hoping by giving Stellar back to Neo that someone else would protect her as he is simply not the kind of guy who protects anything. Unless you can give me a better reason for him giving Neo that shiney thing Stellar gave him. This was a action made by Shinn to forget about Stellar and move on with his revenge. The fact before Stellar was put in Destroy that her memory was not altered and that she was allowed to wear the thingy as a pendant is a really wierd move that Neo made considering it would obviously be capable of downgrading her ability to use destroy VS the Minerva which at the current time is the Flagship of Zaft.

This is the main reason why I have previously stated that Shinn was not trying to protect Stellar with his actions. If Shinn had kept the pendant and recalled that he was fighting so people wouldn't have to suffer like Stellar has.

the revenge you mean is?

the only thing he could only do since he was not medical expert even if he is...ZAFT did not have the technology to prevent stellar from dying...stated by others and the fact that stellar was dying...he could only think of the easiest way out which might let stellar stay alive was to return her to neo...

shinn have feelings for stellar as a big brother/crush...
but i think its rather big brother as when stellar died...the mayu thingy was showed

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
"
Ehm, okay, so you're saying that the writers have put in a subtle theme which consists of Shinn really not liking Stellar at all, that only people like you and DDBen can see?
Riiiight...
.

Um, you've totally misquoted me here.

I never said Shinn didn't like Stellar. What I've implied was that he was fixated on her, maybe a bit attached/obsessed with her, and that their relationship really didn't have any depth. (Maybe it did at the lake... Ooh, what a bad pun).

What I said about Shinn handing off Stellar was that Shinn wanted to avoid responsibility.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
Ehm, okay, so you're saying that the writers have put in a subtle theme which consists of Shinn really not liking Stellar at all, that only people like you and DDBen can see?
Riiiight...

Terra your either unwilling to read what I actually post or unable to comprehend simple words I'm really not sure which. I have never once said that Shinn didn't care about Stellar. All I have said is his actions of passing her off on Neo shows he wasn't willing to take responsability for any of his actions. Shinn has yet to show any remorse at all in the entire series. The closest thing to doing so was when he dumped Stellar in a lake and vowed revenge on freedom. Except Freedom didn't kill her he did.

I believe Shinn saw Stellar as the little sister he had lost before the war and possibly even as a love interest. I believe Stellar was a drugged up psyco who saw Shinn as a big brother trying to protect her. While I also think Stellar had a crush on Neo and saw him as a sort of father figure.

I think Shinn who was unable or unwilling to do what was needed to protect Stellar in turn returned her to her Father figure/boyfriend who she seemed to unconditionally trust and who she was ALWAYS calling for. Shinn had other options he could have attempted the option he choose was to give Stellar to Neo so that he was responsable for taking care of her. If he had ever regretted this action he would have blamed Neo for her death and not Kira. If he had wanted to protect her he would have tried harder to do so instead of how he did it. The only example in Seed that compares is Kira freeing Lacus and giving her to Athrun. The differnce is Lacus had nothing to do with the war at the time she was basically just a civilian pop star and he was giving her to his best friend from elementary school who also happened to be her fiance, because he disagreed with using her as a human shield.

I know I personally if I really cared about someone in that situation wouldn't have given her to someone who might help her. Instead I would try to make sure she got help and see it through until the end. As far as thinking like Shinn does I'm afraid I can't do that as I'm unable to relate to having my parents and siblings killed in front of me in a massive war.

[Motteh]

Originally posted by: DDBen
please read MeroTZ post above yours as it is well written and also states many of the points I have made quite well perhaps in a much better organised way then I have managed at a few point.

Also the reason I have repeated myself in such a manor is because of certain close minded morons who keep accusing everyone who disagree's with them of having a hatred of Shinn and love of Kira.
my post and MeroTZ's were written around the same time
and i considered it well written but just like yours i can't fully agree with them

and you say you repeated yourself because of "closed minded morons who keep accusing everyone who disagree's with them of having a hatred of Shinn and a love of Kira"
but as you are not fond of the things Shinn does in the show
then why are you defending people who are defending Shinn?
atleast that's how the bold line should be interpreted in my opinion

[Terracosmo]

Merotz, you said that it was a bad thing to ignore subtle themes. My reply to you was only meant as a way to convey that I don't think of the "Shinn giving Stellar to Neo" scenario as a subtle theme, but rather an insane scenario.

DDBen, if your posts are what you classify as "simple words" I'm glad that I'm giving you the image of not understanding them. I think of them as utterly stupid, which is why I'm more or less making fun of you in my every reply. When I write that "Shinn doesn't like Stellar" that is not what I mean, it's my way of ridiculing your theories. But strangely you keep getting hanged up on the words I write instead of understanding the meaning. I don't know what the word for this is, but hopefully you understand.

After all, you're not unable to understand simple words like I am. i/expressions/rolleye.gif

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Motteh
my post and MeroTZ's were written around the same time
and i considered it well written but just like yours i can't fully agree with them

and you say you repeated yourself because of "closed minded morons who keep accusing everyone who disagree's with them of having a hatred of Shinn and a love of Kira"
but as you are not fond of the things Shinn does in the show
then why are you defending people who are defending Shinn?
atleast that's how the bold line should be interpreted in my opinion

I know your posts were written around the same time and as mine followed yours I felt it better to point you to that post you might not have read rather then making virtually the same reply.

as for the statement you placed in bold. I worded it that way as very few people use the term Shinn lovers or Kira Haters. You should not in fact take this as something defending those who are defending Shinn. Its more of a general statement for those who can't think of a argument for what the person has stated so instead they resort to pointless inaccurate labeling.

Also note. I'm sure the majority of people at this point "Like Kira" and "Hate Shinn". As thats how the writers want you to think about the characters at this point. I notice the vast majority of those who "Hate Kira" at this point are refering largely to a supirioty complex that Kira has in fact not shown and are basically repeating Dullindales propeganda about how he just confuses the battlefield.

4 battles Kira has been in and the reasons.
1: EA + Orb VS Zaft
Reason: To get Orb to stay out of the fight.
Outcome: Battle posponed with Heine being killed and Minerva's main gun being destroyed.
2: EA + Orb VS Zaft part 2
Reason: To follow through on a decision because thats what Lacus told them to do.
Outcome: Heavy damage on all sides Orbs main vessel is destroyed as well as several Orb pilots and soldiers going over to the AA, Abyss destroyed, Minerva heavily damaged and left with only Impulse, EA left with only Neo and his Windom.
3: Destroy VS anything that moves
Reason: To stop the machine thats commiting Genocide.
Outcome: Destroy was destroyed, Chaos was destroyed, Neo was captured and taken onto the AA. Kira Saved Shinn's life and Stellar was killed.
4: Zaft VS Freedom and AA
Reason: They were attacked
Outcome: Unknown but Freedom and Impulse seem like they are out of commision with Impulse much more likely to show back up at a later point.

[Curium]

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
I wonder if there's anyone here who actually thinks DDBen's Shinn theories make sense.

They make more sense then most of the things you spout. Sometimes they are a little farfetched, but they are always well thought out.

[Motteh]

Originally posted by: DDBen
as for the statement you placed in bold. I worded it that way as very few people use the term Shinn lovers or Kira Haters. You should not in fact take this as something defending those who are defending Shinn. Its more of a general statement for those who can't think of a argument for what the person has stated so instead they resort to pointless inaccurate labeling.

Also note. I'm sure the majority of people at this point "Like Kira" and "Hate Shinn". As thats how the writers want you to think about the characters at this point. I notice the vast majority of those who "Hate Kira" at this point are refering largely to a supirioty complex that Kira has in fact not shown and are basically repeating Dullindales propeganda about how he just confuses the battlefield.
well i like both Shinn and Kira as characters but i myself prefer Shinn
and not because i think Kira is god-like or anything but because as a character i find Shinn refreshing compared to Kira as he is now and was at the end of Seed
that's my only reason why i like Shinn better then Kira at the moment
if that proves to be an invalid reason in anyone's eyes then that's too bad

also saying that i shouldn't take it as something defending those who are defending Shinn is pretty difficult
since it pretty much sounds that way, even though you may have intended it to mean otherwise, i think you should've chosen for a different way to say it so that misunderstandings like this would've been avoided

[Nai]

Originally posted by: DDBen
I notice the vast majority of those who "Hate Kira" at this point are refering largely to a supirioty complex that Kira has in fact not shown and are basically repeating Dullindales propeganda about how he just confuses the battlefield.

He's constantly showing his superiority complex by not taking his opponents seriously ( which amusingly enough was one of the big reasons as to why he lost to Shinn ), and he's constantly throwing battle fields into disarray by attacking both sides. How much clearer can it get, really?

The only propaganda here seems to be the oh so popular line "KIRA IS INFALLIBLE." I just don't buy it.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Nai


Originally posted by: DDBen
I notice the vast majority of those who "Hate Kira" at this point are refering largely to a supirioty complex that Kira has in fact not shown and are basically repeating Dullindales propeganda about how he just confuses the battlefield.

He's constantly showing his superiority complex by not taking his opponents seriously ( which amusingly enough was one of the big reasons as to why he lost to Shinn ), and he's constantly throwing battle fields into disarray by attacking both sides. How much clearer can it get, really?

The only propaganda here seems to be the oh so popular line "KIRA IS INFALLIBLE." I just don't buy it.

No Kira simply doesn't want anybody else to die by his hand. He's sick of killing that has nothing to do with him having a Superiority complex. His Ideology is simply to not kill others if there is any way to prevent it. Disabling suits is simply a way to prevent having to kill those people.

[Nai]

Yeah, it sure worked wonders on Heine, didn't it? Look, going into a live combat zone, disarming or royally pissing off a guy with your arrogant attitude and then running to the next only to repeat. Sure, it doesn't kill them. But it sure as fuck contributes to their certain death as soon as an opponent spots them. You claim that Shinn isn't willing to accept the consequences of his actions. Well, is Kira?

[Curium]

Originally posted by: Jurojin
The second line of reasoning is just plain stupid. And its exactly the crap DDBen is touting. Shinn, who is very pig-headed and head strong to boot, is most certainly NOT an idiot.

I know this is just being picky with words, but I would say that Shinn is an idiot, but that Shinn is not stupid. I know we use the words interchangably in life, but there is a differance.




Originally posted by: DDBen
4: Zaft VS Freedom and AA
Reason: They were attacked
Outcome: Unknown but Freedom and Impulse seem like they are out of commision with Impulse much more likely to show back up at a later point.

Impulse isn't really out of commision. As long as the Core Splendor is fine (which I would assume it is since Shinn didn't die) all they have to do is use a replacement Chest Flyer and recharge it and it is good to go (might want a new Sillouette Pack as well).




Originally posted by: Nai
Yeah, it sure worked wonders on Heine, didn't it? Look, going into a live combat zone, disarming or royally pissing off a guy with your arrogant attitude and then running to the next only to repeat. Sure, it doesn't kill them. But it sure as fuck contributes to their certain death as soon as an opponent spots them. You claim that Shinn isn't willing to accept the consequences of his actions. Well, is Kira?

Kira didn't cause Heine. Heine died because he turned his back on Gaia. He could have assumed that Kira had disabled it, but what would make him think it was any worse then his suit was? There are only 2 real reasons for Heine's death (within the show), 1: Gaia, and 2: Heine making a foolish mistake.

[Nai]

Originally posted by: Curium
Kira didn't cause Heine. Heine died because he turned his back on Gaia. He could have assumed that Kira had disabled it, but what would make him think it was any worse then his suit was? There are only 2 real reasons for Heine's death (within the show), 1: Gaia, and 2: Heine making a foolish mistake.
AND WHY DID HE TURN HIS BACK ON GAIA!?

Oh. My. Fucking. God.

Because Kira threw the battle field into DISARRAY. Because Kira god damn attacked Heine.

Making an action leads to consequences. Kira made the action. Heine suffered the consequences. You can't deny the fact that if Kira had not stepped in Heine would have totally demolished Stellar.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Nai
Yeah, it sure worked wonders on Heine, didn't it? Look, going into a live combat zone, disarming or royally pissing off a guy with your arrogant attitude and then running to the next only to repeat. Sure, it doesn't kill them. But it sure as fuck contributes to their certain death as soon as an opponent spots them. You claim that Shinn isn't willing to accept the consequences of his actions. Well, is Kira?

Heine's death was a Darwin award at best he was paying no attention to what was going on and was killed outside of Kira's influence heck Stellar wasn't even aiming for him he just kind of floated into the way.
.


Originally posted by: Curium
Impulse isn't really out of commision. As long as the Core Splendor is fine (which I would assume it is since Shinn didn't die) all they have to do is use a replacement Chest Flyer and recharge it and it is good to go (might want a new Sillouette Pack as well).

I think that Minerva is unlikely to have more replacement impulse parts but that could be very wrong of all the parts shinn used in this battle none of them are repairable. I do expect to see Impulse back up and running at a later point but disabling Impulse so that it would be unable to follow or attack AA was all that Kira was attempting to accomplish.

[Nai]

Originally posted by: DDBen
Heine's death was a Darwin award at best he was paying no attention to what was going on and was killed outside of Kira's influence heck Stellar wasn't even aiming for him he just kind of floated into the way.Honestly, are we watching the same show here? Heine was paying attention to Kira after Kira found it appropriate to step in and bitchslap him only to fly away ( which he does far too often, by the way). Kira sure as hell influenced his death. But, I do guess Kira is happy as long as the blood isn't directly on his hands, eh?

This is why I consider him a self-centered egomaniac. Hope you can see that a bit more clearer, now. And cease claiming people hating Kira are baseless and spoonfed propaganda directly from Dullindal 24/7.

[Motteh]

Originally posted by: Nai
Honestly, are we watching the same show here? Heine was paying attention to Kira after Kira found it appropriate to step in and bitchslap him only to fly away ( which he does far too often, by the way). Kira sure as hell influenced his death. But, I do guess Kira is happy as long as the blood isn't directly on his hand, eh?

This is why I consider him a self-centered egomaniac. Hope you can see that a bit more clearer, now. And cease claiming people hating Kira are baseless and spoonfed propaganda directly from Dullindal 24/7.
yes Heine was watching Kira and thus not paying attention to Kira
yes that caused him to die at the hands of Gaia which cut him in half
but what reason did Heine have to space out in that exact spot?
you see him floating to the left (from Heine's perspective) right in the spot of Gaia
so why couldn't you just think something like "if only he wouldn't have moved he wouldn't have died"
since he obviously didn't need to move to the left to be able to space out and stare at Freedom right?

[Jurojin]

Originally posted by: Curium


Originally posted by: Terracosmo
I wonder if there's anyone here who actually thinks DDBen's Shinn theories make sense.

They make more sense then most of the things you spout. Sometimes they are a little farfetched, but they are always well thought out.

Well thought out until he starts dismissing very plain and what should be obvious facts:

"Neo would pilot Freedom if Freedom was destroyed and the pilot was killed in it." While the point of "Neo/Mwu is the only expendable person here" is valid, the rest of it is totally ridiculous. Unless Kira and AA took stupid pills that morning, there is no possible or plausible reason for them to either leave Freedom unlocked so it could be stolen, or to let him pilot it to protect AA. That is FACT. Which means that it should have been discussed for no more than 1, 2 posts at max- but in the previous thread, it extended pages because he refused to acknowledge that Neo/Mwu could never, with in the realm of even remote possibility, fly Freedom in the next episode vs. Shinn. And DDBen, don't think to dismiss this part simply because "it didn't happen, so it's not important." The point is that you keep making up almost baseless theories on what's happening. The ONLY thing you had to go on was "Neo/Mwu is expendable" but after that, you should have easily seen it was never going to happen in any possible respect.

"Kira let Shinn destroy Freedom (or heavily damage it) so he could let the AA get away." No. No no no no no no no no no no NO. Kira had his attention divided b/w the AA getting hammered, and Shinn going at him full tilt. He may be the uber UC, but he's still human. I can not and will not accept any further attempts to god-mod (in case you need an explanation of the term, to just toss on powers/abilites on a character just to justify losing, in the sense that you can say "He did it on purpose") Kira. He is just fine the way he is. He has been kicked around when he's distracted before, why the hell should this time be any different? Did you just blank out Seed where the druggies had the upper hand on him before Athrun saved him? And the later when they took off Freedom's head? Stop it. Just stop it. It is getting SAD.

"Shinn is trying to pass responsibility off." She was dying! He felt he didn't have time to argue with the captain for permission(and possibly get put in the brig for insubordination), he knew that the ONLY place that Stellar would be able to survive would be with the EAF, and that it was either give Stellar to the EAF, or let her die. That was his line of reasoning, that was his motive. Did he care about what she might be responsible for in the future (Destroy)? No. Because that was not his concern at the time- it was only about making sure she didn't die. If he had let her die, would he have been protecting her? No. And any other thoughts of "He could have stolen tech" or "He could have surrendered with her" are just stupid because he doesn't have the know how, and do you seriously think they would let a Coordinator run around the ship outside of the brig without a dozen or so guns at his back at all times? He did what he HAD to do to make sure she lived. It was the ONLY option other than letting her die, as far as he was concerned.

Shinn has not had time to grieve or to reflect yet. His character is one that focuses on something, then moves on to the next one. He's been obsessing over Freedom, now it's down. Now he has a chance to sit back and reflect. He hasn't had one yet.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Nai
Honestly, are we watching the same show here? Heine was paying attention to Kira after Kira found it appropriate to step in and bitchslap him only to fly away ( which he does far too often, by the way). Kira sure as hell influenced his death. But, I do guess Kira is happy as long as the blood isn't directly on his hands, eh?

This is why I consider him a self-centered egomaniac. Hope you can see that a bit more clearer, now. And cease claiming people hating Kira are baseless and spoonfed propaganda directly from Dullindal 24/7.

I find your reason here to be misguided. Heine was a member of Faith and the fact he choose to yell at a suit that was obviously paying no attention to him mid battle because he was annoyed is not Kira's fault. Kira had disabled Gaia as well at this point he was unaware of its transforming option and additional weapontry until after Heine had been Killed. Its not like anybody said hey Heine's defenceless lets kill him. All that happened was Stellar got ticked off and went to jump Freedom and Heine randomly floated in the way of her attack. The fact that Heine was introduced as a more supporting character before this does not make him any more or less important then any of the orb pilots he had already killed in this battle. Kira can't save everyone all he can do is try and do what he can.

[Nai]

Originally posted by: Motteh
so why couldn't you just think something like "if only he wouldn't have moved he wouldn't have died"
Because that's irrelevant to my point? My point is that Kira contributed to the death of Heine, which he obviously did. Nothing else.


Originally posted by: DDBen
because he was annoyed is not Kira's fault.
Looking past the fact that Kira was the one who annoyed him... right? If I came up and kicked you in the crotch ( which I'd simply *LOVE* to do! ), would you not be annoyed at me?

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Nai


Originally posted by: Motteh
so why couldn't you just think something like "if only he wouldn't have moved he wouldn't have died"
Because that's irrelevant to my point? My point is that Kira contributed to the death of Heine, which he obviously did. Nothing else.


Originally posted by: DDBen
because he was annoyed is not Kira's fault.
Looking past the fact that Kira was the one who annoyed him... right? If I came up and kicked you in the crotch ( which I'd simply *LOVE* to do! ), would you not be annoyed at me?

Being it was the first time Heine had been in action and the Minerva was GREATLY outnumbered there is absolutely no way to say if Heine would have died in this battle without AA having been there. You can say that Kira disabled Heine's main weapons and that Heine was distracted by Kira but in the end he was killed by his own stupidity. Anyway you look at this his death was completely avoidable had he been operating his suit.

Also note being kicked in the balls can cause a person to be unable to move chopping the arm off a MS can not. Chopping off a persons arm on the other hand would hurt more then being kicked in the balls. In the end just because a soldier was owned on the battlefield doesn't mean he can be stupid.

[MeroTZ]

Gaia killed Heine. All of the responsibility lies with her.

Trying to pin it on Kira is ridiculous. Sure, had he not disabled the Gouf... no wait, it got hit from behind without Heine responding. It still would have been hit, undamaged.

This is akin to saying that its not a murderers fault for killing someone, its the person who didn't give them their money.

Stellar killed Heine, and there is no other way to think about it. if not for her actions, and her choices, he might still be alive.

[Nai]

Originally posted by: DDBen
Being it was the first time Heine had been in action and the Minerva was GREATLY outnumbered there is absolutely no way to say if Heine would have died in this battle without AA having been there. You can say that Kira disabled Heine's main weapons and that Heine was distracted by Kira but in the end he was killed by his own stupidity. Anyway you look at this his death was completely avoidable had he been operating his suit.
Actually, Heine died because Kira pissed him off and he lost track of Stellar. Sure, it was a mistake of him. But my point is once again that Kira contributed to his death, which you have now made clear you realize to some extent, which is a good thing.


Originally posted by: DDBenChopping off a persons arm on the other hand would hurt more then being kicked in the balls.Go find out, why don't you? Really, I don't care. It was a metaphor.


Originally posted by: DDBen
In the end just because a soldier was owned on the battlefield doesn't mean he can be stupid.
There's a big difference between being stupid and being antagonized by a prick thinking he owns the world. You're the former. Heine was the latter.

So, let me throw out three simple facts to sum it up:

Kira and the Archangel threw the battlefield into confusion ( which appears to be a hobby of theirs ).

Heine got caught in that confusion and went after Kira after being totally humiliated.

Stellar got caught in that confusion, and as she charged for Kira in a rage she sliced Heine.

Notice the first thing that happend in this chain of events? Indeed.

Case closed.


Originally posted by: MeroTZ
Gaia killed Heine. All of the responsibility lies with her.
Kira killed Stellar. All of the responsibility lies with him.

You can't have the cake and eat it. SORRY!

Oh, and he wouldn't have been in that position in the first place if it was not for Kira. So much for being hit in that position undamaged, eh.

[Motteh]

Originally posted by: Nai


Originally posted by: Motteh
so why couldn't you just think something like "if only he wouldn't have moved he wouldn't have died"
Because that's irrelevant to my point? My point is that Kira contributed to the death of Heine, which he obviously did. Nothing else.
yes Kira contributed to Heine's death
but so did Heine himself
Kira did in the manner of cutting of Heine's Gouf's right front arm which caused Heine to zone out
but given the fact Heine was in FAITH and thus an experienced soldier should be more then enough reason
to see that Heine should have been able to avoid the zoning out

in the end the main contributor to Heine's demise was the beamsaber attached to Gaia's wing that ran him through

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Nai
Kira killed Stellar. All of the responsibility lies with him.

You can't have the cake and eat it. SORRY!

Oh, and he wouldn't have been in that position in the first place if it was not for Kira. So much for being hit in that position undamaged, eh.

We arn't going to agree on Heine so I'm going to drop that subject for the moment.

Now as for Stellar I'm sorry but until I know what on earth she died from I can't blame it on anyone. Shinn dumped her in a Lake at which point there was no blood. So she had no open wounds. Also she didn't have anything missing or any noteable physical damage in the slightest. So basically as it had nothing to do with her body that we can see that pretty much leaves she suffocated because someone cut a hole in the cockpit of Destroy. If her body was unrecoverable after Destroy went down I would be happy to admit Kira was the one that Killed her, but for now I like the explination that Shinn drowned her in a lake and decided that he couldn't of done it and in turn blames Kira.

That aside I'm not saying that as a serious reason in fact I think the writers completely screwed up on this one.

[Guardian_2000]

By your reasoning Nai, Shinn or even Rey contributed to the death of Heine. If Shinn hadn't done something like take out Freedom earlier or beaten Gaia earlier Heine wouldn't of been killed by Stellar. Not to mention Heine wouldn't of been in the position he was in if he hadn't shot at Freedom in the first place. Since he didn't like Freedom coming into the battle and just disabling everyone. Specifically Kira sorta came in and beat on his opponent moving onto the next one. Where Heine had alil bit more of a harder time with Gaia. Hurt his ego and pride alil perhaps.

Now why are you guys still bickering over this and whats the main point of the argument. Get the main point out specifically noted and it will be dealt with. No more bitching and moaning.

[Nai]

Originally posted by: Motteh
yes Kira contributed to Heine's death
Precisely.


Originally posted by: Guardian_2000[/b]
By your reasoning Nai, Shinn or even Rey contributed to the death of Heine.
Directly =! Indirectly. There's a big difference. Don't mention my reasoning if you can't even comprehend that, please.

And DDBen, you're now accusing Shinn of DROWNING Stellar?

... I'm out of here.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Nai


Originally posted by: Guardian_2000[/b]
By your reasoning Nai, Shinn or even Rey contributed to the death of Heine.
Directly =! Indirectly. There's a big difference. Don't mention my reasoning if you can't even comprehend that, please.

And DDBen, you're now accusing Shinn of DROWNING Stellar?

... I'm out of here.

No I'm accusing the writers and Animators of putting in absolutely no means that could actually cause her death. So Shinn drowning her is as good a explination as any.

[Guardian_2000]

Apparently can't take criticism of ideas and viewpoints like the rest of us. So you are saying Kira directly killed Heine? I didn't see that one. You have to pick one or the other. Did Kira indirectly or directly. Your reasoning is flawed and I can comprehend that quite easily. You want to belittle the other peoples ideas here. Get a clue your gonna have others go over yours as well. If Kira is responsible for Heine's death, Athrun, Rey, and even Shinn can be linked. Kira left Heine after preventing him from attacking Kira.

For another note: Heine was dead from the moment his character got a VA. There was no way they'd of kept such a VA for any prolonged period of time. They just can't do that. I can only imagine what they had to pay him.

[Nai]

I promise I'll be out after this one, I need sleep.

DDBen, well, Shinn slicing open the cockpick and then Kira shoving his saber into the charging cannon probably made her take some damage. Yes, I do indeed consider Shinn a direct contributor to her death. She was obviously dead before he threw her in the lake tho.

Now for Guardian_2000:

Kira directly contributed to the death of Heine, much like Shinn did to the death of Stellar. So no, obviously you have not comprehended anything at all.

Thank you.

[Guardian_2000]

How did he directly contribute to the death of Heine? Did he push him in the way of Stellar? Did he use his newtype powers to put Heine in daze? Obviously you don't comprehend your own understanding of what directly and indirectly mean.

[Motteh]

Originally posted by: Nai


Originally posted by: Motteh
yes Kira contributed to Heine's death
Precisely.
you just choose to use from my statement what can be used to your advantage and ignore everything else right?
how pitiful


Originally posted by: Guardian_2000
Apparently can't take criticism of ideas and viewpoints like the rest of us. So you are saying Kira directly killed Heine? I didn't see that one. You have to pick one or the other. Did Kira indirectly or directly. Your reasoning is flawed and I can comprehend that quite easily. You want to belittle the other peoples ideas here. Get a clue your gonna have others go over yours as well. If Kira is responsible for Heine's death, Athrun, Rey, and even Shinn can be linked. Kira left Heine after preventing him from attacking Kira.

For another note: Heine was dead from the moment his character got a VA. There was no way they'd of kept such a VA for any prolonged period of time. They just can't do that. I can only imagine what they had to pay him.
Nai meant the =! to be a =/ i think, concluding this from what he said after that (it's a big difference)
i'm not trying to defend him totally just in this case, since i think you misunderstood him on that part
although even if i say that his statement after that (Don't mention my reasoning if you can't even comprehend that, please) doesn't make any sense at all

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Nai
I promise I'll be out after this one, I need sleep.

DDBen, well, Shinn slicing open the cockpick and then Kira shoving his saber into the charging cannon probably made her take some damage. Yes, I do indeed consider Shinn a direct contributor to her death. She was obviously dead before he threw her in the lake tho.

Now for Guardian_2000:

Kira directly contributed to the death of Heine, much like Shinn did to the death of Stellar. So no, obviously you have not comprehended anything at all.

Thank you.

The Shinn Drowned Stellar was NOT as serious comment in any way. I just hated the fact that they show Shinn with her out of the cockpit holding her at which point she goes "Shinn Like" then either dies or passes out its really unspecified and Shinn honestly doesn't bother to check much less give her CPR. After this Shinn wanders off tosses her in a lake not even pulling the shrapnel out of her suit. It just seemed rushed, random and uncalled for. I'm thinking more or less she suffocated from the fumes that shinn allowed in the cockpit with the hole he cut. Then he decided not to attempt to save her because she would have just ended up in the same place she was last time and thus making her suffer more was pointless.

My problem is in the end Shinn blames Kira for this when he is the one person who had absolutely nothing to do with Stellar. He disabled gaia once or twice and um yeah he stopped destroy from killing Shinn and who knows how many other people. That aside of all the possible people to blame he is the LEAST responsable for what happened.

[qilinkiddo]

Originally posted by: Nai
I promise I'll be out after this one, I need sleep.

DDBen, well, Shinn slicing open the cockpick and then Kira shoving his saber into the charging cannon probably made her take some damage. Yes, I do indeed consider Shinn a direct contributor to her death. She was obviously dead before he threw her in the lake tho.

Now for Guardian_2000:

Kira directly contributed to the death of Heine, much like Shinn did to the death of Stellar. So no, obviously you have not comprehended anything at all.

Thank you.


even if kira was contributing to heine death which was true but its indirectly...
if kira was the one who kill heine with his gun and stuff then that would be directly...

but after kira disable heine gundam...heine felt that he loses his face/pride
and feel that kira being too cocky who came to the battlefield out of sudden and disable every single gundam/mobile suit he seen...
his rage to get back to freedom that he did not notice gaia was coming from behind(correct it)
stellar using the beam sabre and killed heine from behind

its was stellar who directly kill heine...but kira who indirectly causes the death of heine

[Motteh]

Originally posted by: qilinkiddo
when he going to get his revenge on freedom
on what do you base that he was getting his revenge?
he was just floating there not moving an inch closer to Freedom

[MeroTZ]

Kira holds no blame at all for Heines death. Had Heine done the correct thing, he would have fallen back to Minerva for safety/repairs.

As for Stellar... without an autopsy (impossible due to Shinns actions) there is no way to know what killed her. Could be fumes, could be Shinns beam saber ignited the air in the cockpit and fried her lungs. Maybe it was the radiation released when Kira blew the positron cannonish things on hte chest.

One thing is for certain though. Had Shinn not exposed Stellar to the outside by cutting open Stellars cockpit, she probably would have been fine.

Kira isn't responsible for Stellars death any more than Shinn is. Just liek he's not responsible for Heines.

At least, unless we get more info on Stellars death. maybe kira did kill her, but right now, we dont know.

[Vegita]

Originally posted by: MeroTZ

One thing is for certain though. Had Shinn not exposed Stellar to the outside by cutting open Stellars cockpit, she probably would have been fine.


How's that? He would've stabbed right rhough that cockpit whether or not Shinn cut it open first.

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: Vegita


Originally posted by: MeroTZ

One thing is for certain though. Had Shinn not exposed Stellar to the outside by cutting open Stellars cockpit, she probably would have been fine.


How's that? He would've stabbed right rhough that cockpit whether or not Shinn cut it open first.

...Except that he never stabbed anywhere near the cockpit?

EDIT: Seriously, did you watch it? he destroyed Destroy's chest cannons, he never went near Stellar herself.

[PSJ]

Heine indirectly killed himself so you could say that he indirectly commited suicide by zoning out on the battlefield. He is a skilled enough pilot to get a prototype unit and being a member of Faith. He is skilled enough to not zone out on the battlefield, okey he got suprised but not enough to make him zone out.

You could link this back to Neo if you want. Neo indirectly killed Heine becuase he sent Stellar out into battle. Auel and Sting indirectly contributed becuase they were involved in stealing the Gundams.

Do you get my point?

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: PSJ
Heine indirectly killed himself so you could say that he indirectly commited suicide by zoning out on the battlefield. He is a skilled enough pilot to get a prototype unit and being a member of Faith. He is skilled enough to not zone out on the battlefield, okey he got suprised but not enough to make him zone out.

You could link this back to Neo if you want. Neo indirectly killed Heine becuase he sent Stellar out into battle. Auel and Sting indirectly contributed becuase they were involved in stealing the Gundams.

Do you get my point?

Exactly! The only person with any -real- responsibility for his death was Stellar. She acted specifically to kill him.

No one tried to kill Stellar. Kiras final action against her certainly endangered her life (she was very close and very exposed to a giant cannon that exploded) but it was essentialy the same as him taking hte weapon off any other suit. He acted to disarm Destroy, but never specifically to kill stellar.

[FelixZeroAlastor]

All right for all of you who want to know how Stellar died I have a theory.

Stellar fell pretty far from Destroy. I don't know how tall destroy is but I believe that when Kira blew up destroy's positron cannons, Stellar was thrust from the cockpit from that height as the cockpit combusted. Destroy was a third to a half a mile from where Shinn found Stellar. Seems to me that Stellar probably broke something pretty important which probably led to her death. All I know is that if she flew out of Destroy like I described that means that it had to be a pretty powerful explosion. If you look at the episode you will see that she had to fly out of the Destroy over all of those demolished buildings then somehow into an open area. As to why there was no blood, lazy animators or that was a really a good and crash safe suit. She probably could've lived for a little while if Shinn hadn't moved her. I'm no doctor but I was aware that you aren't supposed to move someone if they have a serious injury. Shinn picking her up like he did probably is what finally killed Stellar in the end. Thus Stellar's death is Shinn's fault. I seriously doubt that she was still alive when Shinn dropped her in the lake.

For those of you who still can't figure out how Shinn peirced Kira's Shield and Gundam, Shinn threw the first sword and put a gash in Kira's shield and then used the second sword (while moving at full speed) and trust the sword throuh the sword and the gundam. Kira though planned his escape in that very moment. As Kira was stabbed, Kira pointed his sword so that it would end up taking out the Impulses main camera, some sensors, and straight through the left side of the suit as they were engulfed by the blast. As for that explosion it was indeed the Tanhausser reacting with the water because as Talia stated herself that it would be to late once the AA submerged which is why she turned the Minerva. She knew that they would miss and braced it for impact. Kira just fled during the explosion. Why the impulse was so messed up after the smoke cleared, well Kira had to pull out his saber didn't he?

[Deblas]

Most likely she suffered from internal bleeding due to the crash from when she flew out of Destroy. Thats probably why they didn't put any cuts or blood on her. It all happened internally.

[valkirie19]

If you remember correctly Heine flew himself into the line of attack stellar took to kill Kira. Now I'm no military strategist, but if my mobile suit is diabled I'm not going to fly in and try to attack anyone. Kira wasn't at fault for that. Heine and Stellar were for not knowing when to stop fighting.

[Terracosmo]

Originally posted by: Curium


Originally posted by: Terracosmo
I wonder if there's anyone here who actually thinks DDBen's Shinn theories make sense.

They make more sense then most of the things you spout.

Eh? Spout? Shut the fuck up. Whenever I write something about Shinn I only use the show itself as source material. Things can't make much more sense than that now can they?

Also, if you are referring to the Yzak stuff, you should know how serious those statements are.

Also #2, do something about the way you phrase your posts. This is not the first time they have come off as a lot more offensive than necessary. If you can't do that, don't bother to reply to what I write.

Edit: I can't believe there are more people here than DDBen who actually thinks things like "Shinn drowned Stellar" makes sense. My hope for this forum has reached yet another new low. What the fuck happened to all the rational people? God.

@Nai: Please don't go. Don't let me be alone here with all these morons. : (

[ChaosK]

yeah you should know there a few things terra is sarcastically serious about

1. yzak
2. being a transexual
3. uhh i dont know i guess there shouldnt be a three yet.

[Terracosmo]

#2 isn't confirmed though i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

[ch4kz]

Kira is not at fault for Heine...he is however for stellar...he did finish the job, even though Shinn may have helped him out a bit.

If Shinn never tore the armour open. Shinn may have not beleived Neo that it was Stellar inside. .So she would have ended up dieing anyway.

[Ahirman]

Eh? Spout? Shut the fuck up. Whenever I write something about Shinn I only use the show itself as source material. Things can't make much more sense than that now can they?
.
.
Also #2, do something about the way you phrase your posts. This is not the first time they have come off as a lot more offensive than necessary. If you can't do that, don't bother to reply to what I write.(

Although this is not on topic, I have to say that comment is a little hypocritcal. I'm sure the whole swearing back didn't make your post more offensive than necessary either eh? The ad hominem's going around are really not necessary.

And as this is my first post, I shall strive to go back on topic in terms of Heine's death. Yes Kira is at fault, indirectly. This cannot be refuted. Taking out all of Heine's weapons in one blow left him defenceless. However, being in FAITH would show he is skilled enough to recover from such a thing. Floating around in the air and watching the foe who ripped you isn't the smartest thing to do, especially on a battlefield. Verdict: Heine dropped the ball there for sure. He did a mistake I would expect a rookie to make but he's not completely at fault.

Furthermore, let's look at at the results of the Archangel's contributions to that battle specifically. Their interference caused Heine's death for sure and possibly a few others but for the most part many were saved. Had Archangel not shown up, surely Minerva would have taken a pounding. Why do I say this? Look at the battle where Athrun got ripped apart by Kira. Before the Archangel appeared, the EAF and Orb alliance were doing a damn good job of pounding the Minerva. Surely they could have done something similar in the earlier battle, although this may not be so as we cannot be sure of the preparation they may have done in comparison to each assault. Meh. Whatever.

Edit: Geh. Being distracted while making a post is bad.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: FelixZeroAlastor
All right for all of you who want to know how Stellar died I have a theory.

Stellar fell pretty far from Destroy. I don't know how tall destroy is but I believe that when Kira blew up destroy's positron cannons, Stellar was thrust from the cockpit from that height as the cockpit combusted. Destroy was a third to a half a mile from where Shinn found Stellar. Seems to me that Stellar probably broke something pretty important which probably led to her death. All I know is that if she flew out of Destroy like I described that means that it had to be a pretty powerful explosion. If you look at the episode you will see that she had to fly out of the Destroy over all of those demolished buildings then somehow into an open area. As to why there was no blood, lazy animators or that was a really a good and crash safe suit. She probably could've lived for a little while if Shinn hadn't moved her. I'm no doctor but I was aware that you aren't supposed to move someone if they have a serious injury. Shinn picking her up like he did probably is what finally killed Stellar in the end. Thus Stellar's death is Shinn's fault. I seriously doubt that she was still alive when Shinn dropped her in the lake.

For those of you who still can't figure out how Shinn peirced Kira's Shield and Gundam, Shinn threw the first sword and put a gash in Kira's shield and then used the second sword (while moving at full speed) and trust the sword throuh the sword and the gundam. Kira though planned his escape in that very moment. As Kira was stabbed, Kira pointed his sword so that it would end up taking out the Impulses main camera, some sensors, and straight through the left side of the suit as they were engulfed by the blast. As for that explosion it was indeed the Tanhausser reacting with the water because as Talia stated herself that it would be to late once the AA submerged which is why she turned the Minerva. She knew that they would miss and braced it for impact. Kira just fled during the explosion. Why the impulse was so messed up after the smoke cleared, well Kira had to pull out his saber didn't he?

Um do show me where she fell out of Destroy its as good a theory as any don't get me wrong here. I just have placed Shinn as atleast having enough dignity to have gotten her out of the wreckage on his own. Then again if she actually went anywhere near the distance your claiming I find it hard to believe the shrapnel didn't get dug into her skin much less the fact she wasn't more noteably injured with something like a broken neck.

Definate points though on noticing the gash in the shield from the beam boomarang weather or not that kind of damage makes sense from that particular weapon but you are 100% correct it caused the gash that allowed Shinn to penitraight the shield good catch.

P.S. If you actually believe Shinn Drowns Stellar you are a dumbass I simply stated it to reinforce the fact we have no idea how she died. Also note due to someone dumping the body in a lake we never will.

Edit


Originally posted by: Ahirman
And as this is my first post, I shall strive to go back on topic in terms of Heine's death. Yes Kira is at fault, indirectly. This cannot be refuted. Taking out all of Heine's weapons in one blow left him defenceless. However, being in FAITH would show he is skilled enough to recover from such a thing. Floating around in the air and watching the foe who ripped you isn't the smartest thing to do, especially on a battlefield. Verdict: Heine dropped the ball there for sure. He did a mistake I would expect a rookie to make but he's not completely at fault.

Do realise that Stellar wasn't even aiming for Heine at all he litterally floated in the way of her blindly attacking freedom. His death wasn't even planned out by the one who killed him he just made the most retarded move I have ever witnessed by floating around aimlessly and ignoring the early warning device that tell you when a mobile suit is approaching and in this case it got him killed.

[Vegita]

Originally posted by: MeroTZ


Originally posted by: Vegita


Originally posted by: MeroTZ

One thing is for certain though. Had Shinn not exposed Stellar to the outside by cutting open Stellars cockpit, she probably would have been fine.


How's that? He would've stabbed right rhough that cockpit whether or not Shinn cut it open first.

...Except that he never stabbed anywhere near the cockpit?

EDIT: Seriously, did you watch it? he destroyed Destroy's chest cannons, he never went near Stellar herself.

Are you expecting the cockpit plating facing outside to protect her from an internal explosion?

EDIT: lol oops it turns out she was thrown from the cockpit. Oh well I guess she should've worn a seatbelt.

[Motteh]

it cannot be confirmed in any way that Stellar was thrown out of the cockpit
first because all the explosions you see are in front of her, which would not likely cause her to fly out in that direction now would they?
and second, after flying and falling such a distance don't you think she would've atleast broken something?\
not necessarily her neck but maybe an arm or a leg?

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: Vegita


Originally posted by: MeroTZ


Originally posted by: Vegita


Originally posted by: MeroTZ

One thing is for certain though. Had Shinn not exposed Stellar to the outside by cutting open Stellars cockpit, she probably would have been fine.


How's that? He would've stabbed right rhough that cockpit whether or not Shinn cut it open first.

...Except that he never stabbed anywhere near the cockpit?

EDIT: Seriously, did you watch it? he destroyed Destroy's chest cannons, he never went near Stellar herself.

Are you expecting the cockpit plating facing outside to protect her from an internal explosion?

EDIT: lol oops it turns out she was thrown from the cockpit. Oh well I guess she should've worn a seatbelt.


Thrown out or not, internal explosions haven't killed anyone yet in this series... feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

The fact is, is that a secure cockpit protects her from all kinds of things. Like toxic fumes. Radiation. The intense heat given off by beam and other energy weapons. I mean really, can you imagine breathing in air that had just been cut through by a beam weapon? Your lungs would burn from the inside out. I can hardly imagine a worse way to die.

Regardless, something killed her. However, it may have even been the writers intention to be as vague as possible about Stellars killer. We'll see.

Oh, and Terra... your a great guy, you've always got some great stuff to read. Its a shame you think we're all crazy. Try not to hold it too much against us, eh?

[Sano]

The whole Stellar death has caused many many speculations and theories. My personal theory is that she died (mostly) from shock and cardiovascular failure. Before she died, she was at a near mental overload and was freaking out. This probably led to a heart attack (although she wasn't gagging for air as most heart -attack victims would have.) Shock can kill. An example would be car accidents. Some victims die from car accidents instantly from the mental shock (I'm not quite sure what the correct terminology is) and not always from the physical injuries. Another possibility was that she was pushed to her max limit during the battle, and needed the medication/healing needed. It would have been impossible to adminstrate the therapy to her because she was in the middle of the battle, and when Shinn reached her, her vital systems shutted down.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Sano
The whole Stellar death has caused many many speculations and theories. My personal theory is that she died (mostly) from shock and cardiovascular failure. Before she died, she was at a near mental overload and was freaking out. This probably led to a heart attack (although she wasn't gagging for air as most heart -attack victims would have.) Shock can kill. An example would be car accidents. Some victims die from car accidents instantly from the mental shock (I'm not quite sure what the correct terminology is) and not always from the physical injuries. Another possibility was that she was pushed to her max limit during the battle, and needed the medication/healing needed. It would have been impossible to adminstrate the therapy to her because she was in the middle of the battle, and when Shinn reached her, her vital systems shutted down.

*rolls a dice to determine today's reason Stellar died* hmm and apparently the animators suffered a fatal heart attack and being that nobody left could draw her properly they figured it was in their best intrest to toss her in a lake and be done with it.

Any of these have a possibility however any of them would have resulted in Shinn at the very least attempting CPR. Unless at this particular point Shinn decided that if she couldn't live on the Bunny farm it was best to just let her die and dump the corpse so nobody could carve her up like a turkey.

[Vegita]

lol yes... my fav example is an episode from simpsons where comic book guy and a bunch of his friends are asking zena about discrepencies during zena... and she says

whenever something unexplainable happens... a sorcerer did it.... and then they were silent.

[FelixZeroAlastor]

Originally posted by: DDBen

Um do show me where she fell out of Destroy its as good a theory as any don't get me wrong here. I just have placed Shinn as atleast having enough dignity to have gotten her out of the wreckage on his own. Then again if she actually went anywhere near the distance your claiming I find it hard to believe the shrapnel didn't get dug into her skin much less the fact she wasn't more noteably injured with something like a broken neck.

Definate points though on noticing the gash in the shield from the beam boomarang weather or not that kind of damage makes sense from that particular weapon but you are 100% correct it caused the gash that allowed Shinn to penitraight the shield good catch.

P.S. If you actually believe Shinn Drowns Stellar you are a dumbass I simply stated it to reinforce the fact we have no idea how she died. Also note due to someone dumping the body in a lake we never will.

Shinn didn't get her out of that wreckage I think. If you look at the scene you will then realize that Destroy is way to far from that "open area" that Shinn was sitting at. If he did he would have had to fly the impulse on top of the destroy, remove Stellar, get back in the impuse, search for an open area, land, and finally walk about twenty feet from his gundam to prepare for their "dramatic scene". Doesn't really make much sense if you ask me. As to why nothing was broken, there was some broken stuff you just couldn't tell because the animators are getting lazy and starting to rush.

My final theory for Stellars death is that first off Stellar had already taken out three cities nonstop and was well overdue for some rest in her dome thingie. My guess is with the lack of drugs and emotional stress her body finally gave out. It had nothing to do with injuries. It was just a lack of drugs. Thus it is no ones fault that she died. She was screwed anyway you look at it so lets just get over this.

Thanks for the points. I am now going analyzing every episode so that I don't post random things and sound like an baka from now on. I thank you DDBen for enlightening me.

P.S. I didn't belive that Shinn drowning Stellar thing. I just stated it cause it sounded like some were starting to believe it.

Accually Shinn probably did get her out of that wrekage but if he didn't have enough sense to try CPR or steal a deflibulator from the Minerva then I wouldn't put it past him to just find her amongst the destruction that she so rought down upon that innocent city. Yeah I like the second part of my sentence better.

[Terracosmo]

Originally posted by: Ahirman


Eh? Spout? Shut the fuck up. Whenever I write something about Shinn I only use the show itself as source material. Things can't make much more sense than that now can they?
.
.
Also #2, do something about the way you phrase your posts. This is not the first time they have come off as a lot more offensive than necessary. If you can't do that, don't bother to reply to what I write.(

Although this is not on topic, I have to say that comment is a little hypocritcal. I'm sure the whole swearing back didn't make your post more offensive than necessary either eh? The ad hominem's going around are really not necessary.

Although this is not on topic, I have to say that you can go and hang yourself.
But seriously, you don't even know what the hell that is about. Don't butt in, boy.
Also, there's a difference between being offensive by will and being offensive by chance.

Finally, if I want your opinion on the matter in the future I will fucking tell you about it.

[PSJ]

Wow, yet again this thread hit a new low. Stellar died and that's it. Do you really think Shinn would just think "oh fuck she died" and then dump her in the lake while she was breathing in water and splashing around Shinn screams "Fuck you, die so i can get my revenge". Obviously she died and Shinn made sure she was dead before dumping her in the ocean, we just didn't get to see it on screen.

Somehow i dont think it would be as emotional if the episode where he dumped her in the lake started out with him checking if she was alive, doing cpr and when he made sure she wasn't alive went to the lake and the funeral scene is played.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: PSJ
Wow, yet again this thread hit a new low. Stellar died and that's it. Do you really think Shinn would just think "oh fuck she died" and then dump her in the lake while she was breathing in water and splashing around Shinn screams "Fuck you, die so i can get my revenge". Obviously she died and Shinn made sure she was dead before dumping her in the ocean, we just didn't get to see it on screen.

Somehow i dont think it would be as emotional if the episode where he dumped her in the lake started out with him checking if she was alive, doing cpr and when he made sure she wasn't alive went to the lake and the funeral scene is played.

If you actually read the posts you would know Shinn drowning Stellar in a lake was not a serious statement or theory in any way. The point was simply that we were never actually given any reason for Stellar to just kind of drop death like she did.

[MeroTZ]

I'm gonna be all crazy here, and end this discussion once and for all.

Without any evidence, I'm going to state what killed Stellar.

Whiplash. Really, really, really nasty whiplash. And a tumor.

[Terracosmo]

Originally posted by: MeroTZ
I'm gonna be all crazy here, and end this discussion once and for all.

Without any evidence, I'm going to state what killed Stellar.

Whiplash. Really, really, really nasty whiplash. And a tumor.

Having read through the entire topic, I don't think that was crazy at all i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

Hail the whiplash theory!

[PSJ]

Originally posted by: DDBen


Originally posted by: PSJ
Wow, yet again this thread hit a new low. Stellar died and that's it. Do you really think Shinn would just think "oh fuck she died" and then dump her in the lake while she was breathing in water and splashing around Shinn screams "Fuck you, die so i can get my revenge". Obviously she died and Shinn made sure she was dead before dumping her in the ocean, we just didn't get to see it on screen.

Somehow i dont think it would be as emotional if the episode where he dumped her in the lake started out with him checking if she was alive, doing cpr and when he made sure she wasn't alive went to the lake and the funeral scene is played.

If you actually read the posts you would know Shinn drowning Stellar in a lake was not a serious statement or theory in any way. The point was simply that we were never actually given any reason for Stellar to just kind of drop death like she did.

I knew that.... The reason i wrote was to stop the fucking discussion about how she died. She died and that's it.

That whiplash theory isn't all that crazy compared to some of the posts here.

[Motteh]

Originally posted by: MeroTZ
I'm gonna be all crazy here, and end this discussion once and for all.

Without any evidence, I'm going to state what killed Stellar.

Whiplash. Really, really, really nasty whiplash. And a tumor.
ever thought about dehydration?
maybe Shinn put her into the lake for that reason?
*hides in case of remorseless replies*

[Dannynonsense]

i say it was whiplash you saw the way she was bouncing around the cockpit

[ChaosK]

or she was masturbating thats one reason she'd be bouncing...i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

[PSJ]

Really not funny Chaoskiddo, good try tho.

Seeing as the discussion about this episode has long since ended and that this topic is now closer to war, it's getting closed.

GotWoot Moderator