Cagalli discussion (Spoiler alert for Gundam Seed)

[naruto22]

Hi everyone. this is my first post and topic so I hope you'll bear with me for being inexperienced with everyone's opinion. I have watched all of Gundam Seed and GSD to date and now I post a burning question:

Why is it that they made Asuran and Cagalli go back to Square 1? Whereas others of the old GS cast, especially my dear Kira Yamato has grown and become confident even in the current confusion, they basically put Cagalli and Asuran into nearly the same position when Kira was first forced to use Strike to defend his friends.

But my question is not really about Asuran. Its Cagalli. you would think she already had some backbone after Uzumi-sama, her adopted father, died to protect ORB's ideals. But like I said, her beliefs aren't set in stone any more, and she's letting people push her around, even to the point of allying with her hated enemies, the Earth Alliance.

I understand she's merely 18 years old and has to deal with politics that are beyond her control. But for a combat veteran who has participated in Desert Guerilla Warefare, and even as a Mobile Suit Pilot herself, you would think she wouldn't let a pansy like Yuna Roma Seiran push her around. But she did, even agreeing to marry the pansy.

At the moment, I like her mostly because she was a GS characted carried over to GSD. But sometimes, I think the creators don't like girls to be the catalysts in the plot (aside from the romantic aspects). then again, I'm going out on a limb saying that most Japanese are gender bias. I have no way of proving this, but honestly almost every anime has girl characters that are there just for the romance. Is there a anime that has a girl heroine alone with no MAN to support her?

GSD in my humble opinion, is just an excuse to get new cool looking mechs and a bunch of girls to have boobshots and panty shots. Maybe I exaggerate but honestly, that Mia Campbell and virtually all the other girls on the Minerva gets on my nerve. Lunamaria Hawke I guess is OK since she is a soldier, jsut there to provide another fan to Asuran. The captain Talia Gladys, I dunno. Kinda bland if you ask me not to mention the scene where she appears half naked next to the Chariman Dullindal. the worse is that annoying sister of Lunamaria. what the heck is a girl like that doing on a battle ship I have no idea. The character development that was so obvious in Seed, just isn't as impactful in GSD.

I save my comments for Shin for other threads since there;s enough to go around without me creating another post.

Anyway, back to Cagalli. I for one, will hope she gets some help on her confidence which she will definitely need if she has to retake the ORB government, either by force or diplomatically. Maybe one day, she can debate with Asuran and can retort more than once. Not like what's going on now:

cagalli: What do you think you were doing that for?
Asuran: Why do you think YOU were doing?
cagalli: uhhhhhh, that's because....... (goes mute)

Which is in quite contrast in Gundam Seed where when Cagalli rescued Asuran right after the climatic battle between Kira and Asuran, she managed to convince him that the killing must stop, and that one way or another , both Kira and Asuran were wrong to try kill another, even though both had killed their respective friends on both side (Kira killed Nicol, Miguel, few other Zaft pilots / Asuran kills Tolle). This was one part where I admired Cagalli and did not just view her as a romantic interest.

I'm sure quite a few of us are pissed at cagalli. I am too. But I hope you will agree with me that she'll become better. she has to be if she is going to regain ORB.


Out of Topic:

Something about myself: I love anime, and believe it or not, my favourite anime is Fushigi Yuugi. Yes, its the shoujo anime with 7 studs protecting a girl. And its the first anime to make me cry. i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif Joke about that if you want.

Edit of post: sorry, should have been a Cagalli discussion as the title of topic, not gender discrimination.

the point of this thread is to discuss Cagalli's character development, not gender discrimination in Anime. sorry.

[NomoZ]

Originally posted by: naruto22
Why is it that they made Asuran and Cagalli go back to Square 1? Whereas others of the old GS cast, especially my dear Kira Yamato has grown and become confident even in the current confusion, they basically put Cagalli and Asuran into nearly the same position when Kira was first forced to use Strike to defend his friends....

At the moment, I like her mostly because she was a GS characted carried over to GSD. But sometimes, I think the creators don't like girls to be the catalysts in the plot (aside from the romantic aspects). then again, I'm going out on a limb saying that most Japanese are gender bias. I have no way of proving this, but honestly almost every anime has girl characters that are there just for the romance. Is there a anime that has a girl heroine alone with no MAN to support her?...

I was also annoyed that they turned back their developement. And as for other anime with strong female characters, the first thing that popped into my head was Ghost in the Shell. Both the first movie and the series. The Major(Motoko) is stronger and smarter than most others on the show.

[Terracosmo]

As long as the series are involving, whatever genders the characters are doesn't matter one bit.
Of course women are used for romance and sexiness more often than men, for obvious reasons. That's how it has always been, in all mediums. Whenever they put men in situations like that people start ravaging, like when Rey showed affection for Gilbert. People don't want that. Generally speaking of course.

Simply put, gender discussion should never be brought into anime.

[jing]

They made Cagalli like that in order for the whole story to iniate. Its totally unbelievable, yes. That's why GSD storyline could have been better. I'm sure we'll never find out why she got pushed around so easily though, and it wasn't because she didn't have enough power.

[Deblas]

Their saying its because of the stress she had of being a representative. Seems the logical answer for her being like that.

[TeknoXI]

Yeah. I agree that this is what I'd expect her to act like. It seems that Uzumi lost lots support after the whole war since well...the country was invaded and pretty badly beaten. Ya know, the whole "Shinn hates Asuka family" deal. With a lack of support, you can't really get your ideas approved easily. Damn Yuna!

I want Yzak to meet Yuna. A confrontation between the two would be awesome...with Yzak bitch slapping him and calling him a pansy etc.

[Roko]

I dun think Uzumi has lost that much support. its just the damn parliament who is basically controlled by that coward Yuuna. I mean, the soldiers would have retreated or even fought the EA if they had found out that it was really Cagalli in the Strike Rouge. Also, I bet the coordinators in Orb support Uzumi wholeheartedly.

hehe, a confrontation between Yzak and Yuuna would be priceless! god we have to see more action from Yzak, especailly when he's bitching

[naruto22]

Uh, I don't think Yzak would even open his mouth. Just stamp his face with his foot (ZAKU PHANTOM or with bare smelly feet, either way works)

Cagalli's influence has always been greater than the rest of ORB's leaders I believe. Its just that her ideas are very hard to hold onto with a Parliament fool of pansys even when the people support you. It goes to say, politicians don't always represent the common people's views, even though that is how Democracy is supposed to work.

But Cagalli should still have held onto her beliefs. As of now, I can only attribute her currently unstable mind to being too young to be appointed Representative (President, Princess, essentially the leader of ORB) and thrown into a political arena that is far too complex for someone like her who would prefer to tackle bulls by its horns. Or BACOWE's for that matter. (Remember the quadrepal mobile suits used in the desert).

Yuna, you better hope you don't come face to face with Kira. He might not kill you, but I can think of a hundred ways to torture you without even physically hurting you.

1) Trip his foot into mud.
2) push him off deck into sea.
3) Replace liquor with urine in bottle.
4) fill his boulster with smoke bombs.

.
.
.
.
.
.
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100) Have Freedom throw him into the air, fire all 5 weapons around him (we all know Kira, if he doesn't want to hit something, he doesn't), use lightstabers to cut his pansy ponytail off, then use Freedom's finger to give him spanking.

[Roko]

Originally posted by: naruto22
Cagalli's influence has always been greater than the rest of ORB's leaders I believe. Its just that her ideas are very hard to hold onto with a Parliament fool of pansys even when the people support you. It goes to say, politicians don't always represent the common people's views, even though that is how Democracy is supposed to work.

Yuna, you better hope you don't come face to face with Kira. He might not kill you, but I can think of a hundred ways to torture you without even physically hurting you.

1) Trip his foot into mud.
2) push him off deck into sea.
3) Replace liquor with urine in bottle.
4) fill his boulster with smoke bombs.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
100) Have Freedom throw him into the air, fire all 5 weapons around him (we all know Kira, if he doesn't want to hit something, he doesn't), use lightstabers to cut his pansy ponytail off, then use Freedom's finger to give him spanking.

I agree with what you said about Cagalli. As for Kira meeting Yuuna, I go for 3 and 4i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

[Terracosmo]

Originally posted by: TeknoXI
I want Yzak to meet Yuna. A confrontation between the two would be awesome...with Yzak bitch slapping him and calling him a pansy etc.



Originally posted by: Roko
hehe, a confrontation between Yzak and Yuuna would be priceless! god we have to see more action from Yzak, especailly when he's bitching

Yes, double yes and fucking triple sausage yes!

KUSO!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gundam-freak]

Originally posted by: Roko


Originally posted by: naruto22
Cagalli's influence has always been greater than the rest of ORB's leaders I believe. Its just that her ideas are very hard to hold onto with a Parliament fool of pansys even when the people support you. It goes to say, politicians don't always represent the common people's views, even though that is how Democracy is supposed to work.

Yuna, you better hope you don't come face to face with Kira. He might not kill you, but I can think of a hundred ways to torture you without even physically hurting you.

1) Trip his foot into mud.
2) push him off deck into sea.
3) Replace liquor with urine in bottle.
4) fill his boulster with smoke bombs.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
100) Have Freedom throw him into the air, fire all 5 weapons around him (we all know Kira, if he doesn't want to hit something, he doesn't), use lightstabers to cut his pansy ponytail off, then use Freedom's finger to give him spanking.

I agree with what you said about Cagalli. As for Kira meeting Yuuna, I go for 3 and 4


lol.. nice 1

[naruto22]

I'm so sad that nobody seems to like idea number 100. i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif Ah well, any other thoughts on Cagalli?

[Shinteo]

Maybe she'll be the one to kiss Yuna's ass to high heavens...

After all, she's the one who desersve to do that the most!

[Wren]

you mean *kick* yuna's ass? lol well we get the idea :-P

[Kiara14]

I agree!
In GS Cagalli was a strong independent female who despite being a princess CHOSE to fight and put her life on the line time after time! Now in GSD She did a complete turn around. I always loves Cagalli and though her to be the most well developed character in GS, but her actions in GSD continue to baffle me!

In any case its true in a male based anime there is always the female love interest who is just there!

As for female based animes well there are only a few I can take seriously. Some of them are just excuses as stated before for brief sneak peeks at panties or what ever else! I mean come on is it really necessary for the main character to be fighting in a mini skirt that in witch theres really no point of even wearing! To be fighting a bunch of other females that are just as bad!

Thats why I liked Cagalli she wasnt like that! She had something to say and didnt resort to the natural girly standards, but thats just going down hill now!

[Board of Command]

I think they're putting too much fanservice into GSD. Look at the new OP. Near the beginning it shows Cagalli in lingerie, which is totally irrelevant and non-fitting for her character.

At least she starts fighting again starting in the next episode.

[Deblas]

Originally posted by: BOARD_of_command
I think they're putting too much fanservice into GSD. Look at the new OP. Near the beginning it shows Cagalli in lingerie

I don't see any problem with that. i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

[naruto22]

Truth be told, i only started watching GSD because I was getting bored with Naruto. Especially when I know how its going to end already. (well, the current chase Sasuke arc anyway) My friend hooked me to Gundam Seed, which I enjoyed immensely, only thing I didn't like bout it was Frey Alster but like i said, the fact that most of us hate her so much showed how good the series is.

And my dear Cagalli was a powerful woman figure. I will never forget the lecture SHE gave Asuran about the continuos cycle of killing. And Asuran was actually persuaded!!!! Hurrah for Female Heroines!!!! Hurrah for Women with brains!!! Hurrah for a woman, a Natural no less, that can pilot a Strike Gundam and actually kill something with it!!!! (I don't remember exactly, but she did kill a few Ginns after she saw her fellow Astray members die.)

And then they showed Cagalli in a lingerie.
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WTF?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?

I really hated episode 28. What I don't even get is why the ORB forces were so fanatic with getting the Minerva. Sure, they stayed sane enough to NOT KILL Cagalli, but they went against Minerva with all the wild abandon of Kamikaze pilots!!! I seriously do not get their motivation!! Captain Todoka I can understand, he is paying penance for leading the damn expedition which goes against ORB ideals so he chose to stay and face his punishment. But the rest of the Murasame pilots and ships?

And worse is, as someone already said, all Cagalli did was cry. Personally, in the old Gundam Seed, she would have done more than cry, she would have forcefully blocked the Murasame from getting near the Minerva even at the expense of her own life. If she had done that, the ORB forces would be forced to stop fighting one way or another, because they can't deny that its Cagalli from the start.

Creators of GUNDAM SEED DESTINY, YOU ALL SUCK!!! YOU TURNED THE FIRST MATURE GIANT ROBOT SERIES INTO A FAN SERVICE FOR LUNAMARIA, MIA CAMPBELL, THAT ANNOYING LUNAMARIA'S SISTER, AND HELL, EVEN RAKUSU AND CAGALLI!!!

Gentlemen, I rest my case. GSD is just a way to milk the franchise. I sense American fingers all over it.

[Terracosmo]

"Creators of GUNDAM SEED DESTINY, YOU ALL SUCK!!! YOU TURNED THE FIRST MATURE GIANT ROBOT SERIES INTO A FAN SERVICE FOR LUNAMARIA, MIA CAMPBELL, THAT ANNOYING LUNAMARIA'S SISTER, AND HELL, EVEN RAKUSU AND CAGALLI!!!"

The first mature giant robot series?

I suggest that you broaden your views a little before commenting in that manner.

[naruto22]

From what I am told, yes. Mobile Suit Gundam back in 1979 was the first series to become what is called the REAL ROBOT genre. As opposed to the Super robot genre where the hero gets an invincible robot to battle his enemies, who keep sending enemies that are eventualy defeated curtesy of Hero in Super Robot.

In contrast, series like Gundam and robotech focus more on characters and the horrors of war, where the giant robots are just another tool of destruction, not a special ace up the hero's sleeve.

Gundam Seed was a spectacular play on human emotions. How many of us watched the duel between Asuran with Kira without breathing? How many of us feel sad every single time Kira has to kill again and again when he doesn't want to? How many of us want to Mangekyo Sharingan Frey alster into a thousand years of hell for seducing and f*(ing Kira? How many of us rejoiced when we see Kira floating in space being found by his best friend Asuran and sister Cagalli in the middle of space after the final battle?

for GSD? Hell, even Impulse looks like Strike. And Shinn, they haven't gone anything further on his character apart from his obsession with Stellar and destroying ORB's ideal

The chaos of episode 28 really made me think: What the helll is this episode all about? Oh wait I know, Saviour needs to be scrapped because Asuran's getting Knight Justice!!

pathetic really. Please focus more on the characters and less on bringing in new Mobile suits, and new pilots who are eventually killed in 2 episodes. (Remember Heine)

[Terracosmo]

Well of course it was "a spectacular play on human emotions". But it has definately been done before. Don't get me wrong I love GS/D to death but it's in no way unique. You are very mistaken.

They didn't bring in Heine for the sake of bringing in characters, they brought him in because his death has caused impact on the entire Minerva crew. I also don't understand why you dislike "the chaos of ep 28". This "chaos" is not new to Destiny. I still do not understand what your issue is. Besides that, I believe Destiny is better than Seed if you think about the fact that half of Seed was spent establishing the universe and letting Kira face off against random opponents to get to know himself better (Seed probably has some anime record when it comes to amount of characters introduced in an episode only to get killed in the end of it or the next)...

And Destiny doesn't really have more fanservice than Seed. *cough* bouncing Murrue boobs in opening 3/4 of Seed *cough*
Also I dislike calling it fanservice. What's wrong with a bit of nudity? If a show is supposed to be a play on human emotions, arousing should be a part of it... teehee.

[Board of Command]

But there's a difference between relevant fanservice and unnecessary fanservice. Relevant as in Stellar stripping down in the cave, unnecessary as in showing Cagalli, a strong female character, in lingerie in the OP.

[Terracosmo]

Like you complain about seeing her in lingerie to begin with.
Maybe it's symbolism to show her naked feelings for Asuran who just walks away from her as he tries to find what he should do himself (far-fetched but wtf)

And she is not a strong female character anymore.

[Deblas]

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
Like you complain about seeing her in lingerie to begin with.
Maybe it's symbolism to show her naked feelings for Asuran who just walks away from her as he tries to find what he should do himself (far-fetched but wtf)

And she is not a strong female character anymore.

Symbolism? I think its just fanservice. i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

[Terracosmo]

Whatever it is, it's sexy. Soooo...

[Mut]

Cagali is a bitch.

And she is dumb.

Weak too.

That's what the creator wanted to portray in the OP and he is gradually turning Cagali into just an even more useless female voice. I don't want to be sexist nor am I trying to be one, but Cagali is and was only introduced to fill the "main character's ho" role. She was never a strong female. She acts like it but she is actually so god damn emotionally weak underneath her tough-girl exterior. Even Lacus is a stronger female than her. She isn't as loud as Cagali is but she stands firm on her decisions and doesn't do the "HEY LISTEN TO ME, oh wait. Sorry..." bullshit Cagali always pulls.

But do I want to see Athrun have his way with her? Yes.

[LordGardenGnome]

Ummm yeah i kinda feel the same way with Cagalli. I'm sorry but i look at it as she's in a mobile suit, a nice one at that, and she doesn't fire a dang shot. She does a lot of speaches and look how well those did, someone just kill her. I'd be happy if she just didn't appear anymore. She's become annoying to me how she hangs out in the air in Strike Rouge and does a whole lot of Nothing!

sorry but it just bugs the crap out of me.

[naruto22]

Sadly, so do I. If only they made Cagalli more useful, like in GS. That is why this GSD is really starting to get at me with silly new characters who do nothing but either gawk at Asuran or hate Cagalli to the bone.

Shin Asuka is a brat who hasn't improved since day one. This is why, Coordinator or not, he is still a kid. Just like Asuran, Kira and the rest of the young Coordinators. They may have military training but they still have the same chronological mindset of a Natural Child of the same age. That's why they either become mentally unstable (Shin Asuka and Asuran come to mind, Kira for most of Gundam Seed), extremely angry and bloodlust (Yzak Joule), a joker (Deakka) or you mature beyond your years. (Kira Yamato and once I though Asuran belong to this category).

And Shin asuka just choose to be a psychotic soldier who only cares about fighting, regardless the enemy. As for his whole reason of ORB not protecting his family, what utter bull. If his family was on the Unius Seven which got nuked by the EAF, I bet he would probably blame Zaft for not protecting his family and join EAF. OK that's a bit to far off but the fact is that. like Asuran say, he cannot think beyond what his little mind chooses to accept. He think he is God, only he is right. In other words, he is a selfish kid whose only consideration beyond himself is possibly Stellar. I don't efven want to give him the doubt that he would die for the Minerava crew.

My humble opinion is that whenever he went SEED mode, it was to fulfil his bloodlust. Episode 28 battle shows this. He didn't go SEED to protect the Minerva. He went SEED so that he can slaughter anybody that fits into ORB's ideals, which includes Kira, Archangel, Cagalli.

Despite they are now both on my "to hate list" characters, I still choose Cagalli over Shinn. Her current whinny attitude aside, she at least, is not a murderer at heart. Shinn is and he doesn't care. If Cagalli is an example of a person who is easily influenced by her surroundings, Shinn is the other extreme, who is deaf to all other opinions but himself.

Sigh, at least that's his current situation. I do have a tiny bit of sympathy for the boy and I hope Stellar can melt his cold heart a bit. That's what she is there fore after all.

[Jurojin]

The thing about the fanaticism of destroying the Minerva is that Orb felt it needed to show that it was not just siding with the EAF to avoid being shot up. Again. Think of it like joining a gang, and you have to do something- to prove your loyalty. What Yuna et al feared was that if they looked like they were making a half-hearted attempt, the EAF would go On second thought, well just occupy you and take over your government.

Think about the words the admiral said before he shoved them off the bridge. He knew that sending the fleet at Minerva was suicide, but the way it was done made it look like that Orb was committed, even if they didnt destroy the Minerva, which save Orb a little bit of EAF scrutiny.

At least, that's just my analysis.

[naruto22]

Originally posted by: Jurojin
The thing about the fanaticism of destroying the Minerva is that Orb felt it needed to show that it was not just siding with the EAF to avoid being shot up. Again. Think of it like joining a gang, and you have to do something- to prove your loyalty. What Yuna et al feared was that if they looked like they were making a half-hearted attempt, the EAF would go On second thought, well just occupy you and take over your government.

Think about the words the admiral said before he shoved them off the bridge. He knew that sending the fleet at Minerva was suicide, but the way it was done made it look like that Orb was committed, even if they didnt destroy the Minerva, which save Orb a little bit of EAF scrutiny.

At least, that's just my analysis.

A good analysis but the thing is, I doubt every Murasame and Astray pilot was thinking along those lines. Captain todoka most certainly but not everyone else. Hell, if I were a hotshot pilot, like a certain Mobile Armour pilot in Gundam Seed, I rather die fighting in my ship rather than kiss some elses ass like that Yuna et al are doing.

Politicians would think that way, not soldiers. Soldiers have the unfortunate postion of actually being on the implementation side of policy. All politicians will ever see is a bill or alliance statement being signed. They wouldn't know PERSONALLY how much that decision is going to affect every ORB soldier.

And don't tell me that there are no veterans who survived the previous EAF invasion of ORB. Veterans who remember the unjust invasion on their land, only to find out they are now the servant of the same enemy that tried to destroy them before.

They have truly forgotten the ORB ideals that made ORB powerful in the first place: by standing aside from the war and accepting Coordinators as human beings. Now they're going back into the stone age phylosphically speaking.

Haiyah, maybe I should give up looking for a plotline and just focus on the fighting.